On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 03:11:39 GMT, "Robert \(L1\)" <none@nonet.com>
wrote:

So Mr Libertarius, I was looking at my windshield last night after cleaning
it with the washers, it was cold and the tiny layer of water immediately
started to freeze. My question to you is this: why the freezing pattern
looks like a leaf or a tree? If it's random it's got to be random, if it's
by design and by rules it's got to follow the rules. I was about to ask this
question on the net then I forgot about it, then I saw your post here. Is
this too part of the world's gazillions of coincidences?

It is neither random nor coincidence. Those crystals can only form in
certain ways because of the characteristics of the atoms that make
them up. They are a design, but not the product of an intelligent
designer. They were not painted by Jack Frost.

I have millions of questions for you but let's listen to your intelligent
answer to this one here, please. And I hope you don't answer to me by using
a naturally formed answer.

What the Intelligent Design Creationist does not realize or cannot
bring himself to admit, is that a design does not have to be produced
by an intelligence. A 'designer' can be non-cognizant, blind and
without purpose. A good book to help understand this written by
Richard Dawkins is entitled "The Blind Watchmaker"

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393315703/qid=1107575077/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-3661071-3940119?v=glance&s=books>

## A mind stretched by new ideas
## can never go back to its original dimensions.

===>Have you ever had a thought of your own, or are you
just a mindless copy machine? -- L

lampmuz wrote:

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:31:07 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:

Intricacy, complexity proves nothing.

Behold the snowflake:
Every intricate flake
so beautifully formed by natural processes,
without a "plan" or a "planner",
refutes your argument,
an argument which clearly contradicts itself
by positing a self-emerged, uncreated,
undesigned "designer". -- L.

===>Have you ever had a thought of your own, or are you
just a mindless copy machine? -- L

Job 37: 6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou [on] the earth; likewise
to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.
{likewise...: Heb. and to the shower of rain, and to the showers of
rain of his strength}
38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow ? or hast
thou seen the treasures of the hail, 23 Which I have reserved
against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, [which] scattereth the east wind
upon the earth? 25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the
overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; 26 To
cause it to rain on the earth, [where] no man [is; on] the wilderness,
wherein [there is] no man; 27 To satisfy the desolate and waste
[ground]; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth? 28
Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew? 29 Out
of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath
gendered it? 30 The waters are hid as [with] a stone, and the face
of the deep is frozen. {is...: Heb. is taken}

Psalm 147:16 He giveth snow like wool: he scattereth the hoarfrost
like ashes. 17 He casteth forth his ice like morsels: who can stand
before his cold? 18 He sendeth out his word, and melteth them: he
causeth his wind to blow, [and] the waters flow. 148:1 Praise ye the
LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
{Praise ye the LORD. Praise: Heb. Hallelujah, etc} 2 Praise ye him,
all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun
and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye
heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens. 5 Let
them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were
created. 6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath
made a decree which shall not pass. 7 Praise the LORD from the
earth, ye dragons, and all deeps: 8 Fire, and hail; snow , and
vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word: 9 Mountains, and all hills;
fruitful trees, and all cedars: 10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping
things, and flying fowl: {flying...: Heb. birds of wing 11 Kings of
the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth: 12
Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children: 13 Let them
praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his
glory [is] above the earth and heaven. {excellent: Heb. exalted} 14
He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints;
[even] of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye
the LORD.

Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven,
and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring
forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the
eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it
shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I
please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it

Revelation 1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as
white as snow ; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; 15 And his
feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his
voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand
seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his
countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I
saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon
me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I
[am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for
evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the
things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things
which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which
thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The
seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven
candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Job 36:26 Behold, God [is] great, and we know [him] not, neither can
the number of his years be searched out. 27 For he maketh small the
drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28 Which the clouds do drop [and] distil upon man abundantly. 29
Also can [any] understand the spreadings of the clouds, [or] the noise
of his tabernacle? 30 Behold, he spreadeth his light upon it, and
covereth the bottom of the sea. {bottom: Heb. roots} 31 For by them
judgeth he the people; he giveth meat in abundance. 32 With clouds
he covereth the light; and commandeth it [not to shine] by [the cloud]
that cometh betwixt. 33 The noise thereof sheweth concerning it, the
cattle also concerning the vapour. {the vapour: Heb. that which goeth
up} 37:1 At this also my heart trembleth, and is moved out of his
place. 2 Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound
[that] goeth out of his mouth. {Hear...: Heb. Hear in hearing} 3 He
directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends
of the earth. {lightning: Heb. light} {ends: Heb. wings} 4 After it
a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and
he will not stay them when his voice is heard. 5 God thundereth
marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot
comprehend. 6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou [on] the earth;
likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.
{likewise...: Heb. and to the shower of rain, and to the showers of
rain of his strength} 7 He sealeth up the hand of every man; that
all men may know his work. 14 Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still,
and consider the wondrous works of God. 15 Dost thou know when God
disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine? 16 Dost
thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him
which is perfect in knowledge? 17 How thy garments [are] warm, when
he quieteth the earth by the south [wind]? 18 Hast thou with him
spread out the sky, [which is] strong, [and] as a molten looking
glass? 19 Teach us what we shall say unto him; [for] we cannot order
[our speech] by reason of darkness. 20 Shall it be told him that I
speak? if a man speak, surely he shall be swallowed up. 21 And now
[men] see not the bright light which [is] in the clouds: but the wind
passeth, and cleanseth them. 22 Fair weather cometh out of the
north: with God [is] terrible majesty. {Fair...: Heb. Gold} 23
[Touching] the Almighty, we cannot find him out: [he is] excellent in
power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any [that are] wise
of heart. 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and
said, 2 Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without
knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of
thee, and answer thou me. {answer...: Heb. make me know}
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
declare, if thou hast understanding. {hast...: Heb. knowest
understanding} 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou
knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the
foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
{foundations: Heb. sockets} {fastened: Heb. made to sink?} 7 When
the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for
joy? 8 Or [who] shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, [as
if] it had issued out of the womb? 9 When I made the cloud the
garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, 10 And
brake up for it my decreed [place], and set bars and doors, {brake...:
or, established my decree upon it} 11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou
come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
{thy...: Heb. the pride of thy waves} 12 Hast thou commanded the
morning since thy days; [and] caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked
might be shaken out of it? {ends: Heb. wings} 14 It is turned as
clay [to] the seal; and they stand as a garment. 15 And from the
wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken. 16
Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in
the search of the depth? 17 Have the gates of death been opened unto
thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? 18 Hast
thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it
all. 19 Where [is] the way [where] light dwelleth? and [as for]
darkness, where [is] the place thereof, 20 That thou shouldest take
it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths [to]
the house thereof? {to the bound: or, at, etc} 21 Knowest thou [it],
because thou wast then born? or [because] the number of thy days [is]
great? 22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow ? or
hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, 23 Which I have reserved
against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? 24 By
what way is the light parted, [which] scattereth the east wind upon
the earth? 25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of
waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; 26 To cause it to
rain on the earth, [where] no man [is; on] the wilderness, wherein
[there is] no man; 27 To satisfy the desolate and waste [ground];
and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth? 28 Hath the
rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew? 29 Out of
whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath
gendered it? 30 The waters are hid as [with] a stone, and the face
of the deep is frozen. {is...: Heb. is taken} 31 Canst thou bind the
sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? {Pleiades:
or, the seven stars: Heb. Cimah} {Orion: Heb. Cesil?} 32 Canst thou
bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with
his sons? {Mazzaroth: or, the twelve signs} {guide: Heb. guide them}
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion
thereof in the earth? 34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds,
that abundance of waters may cover thee? 35 Canst thou send
lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we [are]?
{Here...: Heb. Behold us?} 36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward
parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? 37 Who can
number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
{stay: Heb. cause to lie down} 38 When the dust groweth into
hardness, and the clods cleave fast together? {groweth...: or, is
turned into mire: Heb. is poured} 39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the
lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions, {the appetite: Heb. the
life} 40 When they couch in [their] dens, [and] abide in the covert
to lie in wait? 41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his
young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
39:1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring
forth? [or] canst thou mark when the hinds do calve? 2 Canst thou
number the months [that] they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when
they bring forth? 3 They bow themselves, they bring forth their
young ones, they cast out their sorrows. 4 Their young ones are in
good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not
unto them. 5 Who hath sent out the wild ***** free? or who hath loosed
the bands of the wild *****? 6 Whose house I have made the wilderness,
and the barren land his dwellings. {barren...: Heb. salt places} 7 He
scorneth the multitude of the city, neither regardeth he the crying of
the driver. {of the driver: Heb. of the exactor} 8 The range of the
mountains [is] his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing.
9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? 10
Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he
harrow the valleys after thee? 11 Wilt thou trust him, because his
strength [is] great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? 12 Wilt
thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather [it
into] thy barn? 13 [Gavest thou] the goodly wings unto the peacocks?
or wings and feathers unto the ostrich? {wings and...: or, the
feathers of the stork and ostrich} 14 Which leaveth her eggs in the
earth, and warmeth them in dust, 15 And forgetteth that the foot may
crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.
40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, 2 Shall he that
contendeth with the Almighty instruct [him]? he that reproveth God,
let him answer it. 3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 4
Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon
my mouth. 5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice;
but I will proceed no further. 6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out
of the whirlwind, and said, 7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I
will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 8 Wilt thou also
disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be
righteous? 9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a
voice like him? 10 Deck thyself now [with] majesty and excellency;
and array thyself with glory and beauty. 11 Cast abroad the rage of
thy wrath: and behold every one [that is] proud, and abase him. 12
Look on every one [that is] proud, [and] bring him low; and tread down
the wicked in their place. 13 Hide them in the dust together; [and]
bind their faces in secret. 14 Then will I also confess unto thee
that thine own right hand can save thee. 15 Behold now behemoth,
which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. {behemoth: an
extinct animal of some kind}
41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a
cord [which] thou lettest down? {leviathan: an extinct animal of some
kind} {which...: Heb. which thou drownest?} 2 Canst thou put an hook
into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn? 3 Will he make
many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft [words] unto thee? 4
Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant
for ever? 5 Wilt thou play with him as [with] a bird? or wilt thou
bind him for thy maidens? 6 Shall the companions make a banquet of
him? shall they part him among the merchants? 7 Canst thou fill his
skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears? 8 Lay thine
hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more. 9 Behold, the hope
of him is in vain: shall not [one] be cast down even at the sight of
him? 10 None [is so] fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able
to stand before me? 11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay
[him? whatsoever is] under the whole heaven is mine. 12 I will not
conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion. 13 Who
can discover the face of his garment? [or] who can come [to him] with
his double bridle? {with: or, within} 14 Who can open the doors of
his face? his teeth [are] terrible round about. 15 [His] scales
[are his] pride, shut up together [as with] a close seal. {scales:
Heb. strong pieces of shields} 16 One is so near to another, that no
air can come between them. 17 They are joined one to another, they
stick together, that they cannot be sundered. 18 By his neesings a
light doth shine, and his eyes [are] like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, [and] sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as [out] of a seething pot or
caldron. 21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his
mouth. 22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into
joy before him. {is turned into joy: Heb. rejoiceth} 23 The flakes
of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they
cannot be moved. {flakes: Heb. fallings} 24 His heart is as firm as
a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether [millstone]. 25 When
he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings
they purify themselves. 26 The sword of him that layeth at him
cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon. {habergeon: or,
breastplate} 27 He esteemeth iron as straw, [and] brass as rotten
wood. 28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with
him into stubble. 29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at
the shaking of a spear. 30 Sharp stones [are] under him: he
spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire. {Sharp stones: Heb.
Sharp pieces of potsherd} 31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot:
he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment. 32 He maketh a path to
shine after him; [one] would think the deep [to be] hoary. 33 Upon
earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. {is made
without fear: or, behave themselves without fear} 34 He beholdeth
all high [things]: he [is] a king over all the children of pride. 42:1
Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do
every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee. {no
thought can be...: or, no thought of thine can be hindered} 3 Who
[is] he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I
uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I
knew not. 4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of
thee, and declare thou unto me. 5 I have heard of thee by the
hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor
[myself], and repent in dust and ashes. 7 And it was [so], that
after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to
Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against
thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is]
right, as my servant Job [hath]. 8 Therefore take unto you now seven
bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for
yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you:
for him will I accept: lest I deal with you [after your] folly, in
that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is] right, like my
servant Job. {him: Heb. his face, or, person} 9 So Eliphaz the
Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite [and] Zophar the Naamathite went, and
did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
{Job: Heb. the face of Job} 10 And the LORD turned the captivity of
Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as
much as he had before. {gave...: Heb. added all that had been to Job
unto the double} 11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and
all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance
before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned
him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought
upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an
earring of gold. 12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more
than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six
thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she
asses. 13 He had also seven sons and three daughters. 14 And he
called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second,
Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch. 15 And in all the
land were no women found [so] fair as the daughters of Job: and their
father gave them inheritance among their brethren. 16 After this
lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons'
sons, [even] four generations. 17 So Job died, [being] old and full
of days.

53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, [A Psalm] of
David. The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. Corrupt
are they, and have done abominable iniquity: [there is] none that
doeth good. 2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God. 3
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
[there is] none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have the workers of
iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people [as] they eat bread: they
have not called upon God. 5 There were they in great fear, [where]
no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth
[against] thee: thou hast put [them] to shame, because God hath
despised them. {were...: Heb. they feared a fear} 6 Oh that the
salvation of Israel [were come] out of Zion! When God bringeth back
the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, [and] Israel shall
be glad. {Oh that...: Heb. Who will give salvation, etc}