| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Ananias917" |
| Date: |
27 Dec 2005 01:13:36 PM |
| Object: |
TO TELL THE TRUTH: YOU DECIDE |
Hi,
You decide who is being honest here.
The topic is when "every knee shall bow" before
the judgment seat of Christ.
A claim was made that when the Bible says that,
"every knee shall bow", that it is talking about
when Christ returns. This would obviously mean
that people living on Earth, would all kneel in
front of Christ, upon His return.
I said that everyone will kneel before Christ,
after they die and are judged.
I also asked for proof and the following passages
were quoted...
*********************************************
(Isaiah 45:23) I have sworn by myself, the word
is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and
shall not return, That unto me every knee shall
bow, every tongue shall swear.
(Romans 14:11) For it is written, As I live, saith
the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every
tongue shall confess to God.
*********************************************
My response basically stated that those verses
do not say anything about this being every person,
at the same time, while alive on Earth.
Glenn sent the following post, which I will start
with his words and note that he mixed more
than one passage together. The Bible does not
say, "and every knee will bow when He comes
in glory". Anyway, the following is what Glenn
posted...
**************************************************
And He said, yet they still won't believe. But they
will when the Son of Man comes with great power
and Glory. And every knee shall bow and every
tongue shall confess.
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Please, just the scripture, no interpretation or
translation, none of this "well, what it says is,
but WHAT THAT MEANS IS..."
Any will do, which scriptures says "they will bow
_while they live_? which scripture says "they will
bow _when they die_?
come on now, lets see it!
Don't give us a passage that YOU THINK means that...
Just the scripture, we can look it up.
thanks
And don't dodge it and post passages that YOU THINK
mean that. I want to see the words of THE BIBLE
saying it, not saying something else and then you
telling me how "It REALLY means...". (:
Preterism is a lie.
****************************************************
That was Glenn's post and note, he tries to use my
phrase against me.
Anyway, I posted the following in response....
***************************************************
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Why would you foolishly argue that people will not
stand and be judged when they die?
Pleasse, just the scripture, no interpretation or
translation, none of this "well, what it says is,
but WHAT THAT MEANS IS..."
That is your job and that is what you have continually
done. I am not the one making a claim here. If you
people believe it is when He returns, then provide the
passage.
It is a Biblical fact that we will all stand before
the judgment seat of Christ.
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? Or why dost
thou set at naught thy brother? For we shall all stand
before the judgment seat of Christ." - Romans 14:10
It is a Biblical fact that we will die and THEN we will
be judged.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
Note: Die, THEN AFTER THAT HAPPENS, judgment.
Now notice where the passage that Daniel quoted
(see below) as supposed proof actually fits in. It is
the next verse AFTER the one I quoted above and
this shows that grabbing ONE VERSE out and trying
to build a doctrine on it, is a bad practice!
"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every
knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall
confess to God." - Romans 4:11
Thus, everyone will kneel before Christ, after they
die. Of that there is no doubt. Did you not remember
these verses?
Now if you want to claim that there is a passage that
says that everyone on Earth, will kneel before Christ,
at the same time, while on Earth, when He physically
returns, then provide it.
The Bible does not teach that. This doctrine that says
that Christ will come to Earth and every knee shall bow
while He is on Earth and people are still living humans
is a false doctrine. The Bible shows that we all stand
at the judgment seat of Christ, AFTER DEATH.
****************************************************
Now note folks, I DID POST PASSAGES.
As for his response that I will quote below...
Note that Glenn responds by snipping my passage
quotes and then acts as if I did NOT post any passages!
He claims I insulted him instead. Glenn started by
trying to insult ME. He shouldn't complain!
The point is, that he goes so far as to say that I
COULD NOT quote a passage, when I clearly DID.
The problem for Glenn, is that I posted one that
showed that the Bible says that it is after we die,
that we kneel before the judgment seat of Christ
and so, he snipped what I quoted.
The topic was about every knee bowing before
the judgment seat of Christ.
You will also see however, that Glenn changed
the wording of his claim, from this...
GLENN: But they will when the Son of Man comes
with great power and Glory. And every knee shall
bow and every tongue shall confess.
To this, after I proved my point...
GLENN: But they will [see Him] when the Son
of Man comes with great power and Glory.
And then he has THE GALL to claim that *I*
changed it!
Anyway, here is what he responded with.
Note the deceptions...
******************************************************
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Why would you foolishly argue that people will not
stand and be judged when they die?
See, you can't give the scripture, so you answer a
request with ridicule.
the statement was:
But they will [see Him] when the Son of Man
comes with great power and Glory.
and you replied:
Yes, when they die.
The scripture was: "when the Son of Man comes with
great power and Glory...
and CHANGE IT TO " yes, when they die...
I asked for scripture to support your change
just post your scripture between the lines
___________________________________________
____________________________________________
thanks Dave.
owd
************************************************************
Now you tell me folks. Who was honest here and who is
the liar?
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
Would a loving God send people to Hell?
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/hell.html
.
|
|
| User: "oldwetdog" |
|
| Title: Re: TO TELL THE TRUTH: YOU DECIDE |
27 Dec 2005 02:02:37 PM |
|
|
Ananias917 wrote:
Hi,
You decide who is being honest here.
The topic is when "every knee shall bow" before
the judgment seat of Christ.
A claim was made that when the Bible says that,
"every knee shall bow", that it is talking about
when Christ returns. This would obviously mean
that people living on Earth, would all kneel in
front of Christ, upon His return.
I said that everyone will kneel before Christ,
after they die and are judged.
I also asked for proof and the following passages
were quoted...
*********************************************
(Isaiah 45:23) I have sworn by myself, the word
is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and
shall not return, That unto me every knee shall
bow, every tongue shall swear.
(Romans 14:11) For it is written, As I live, saith
the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every
tongue shall confess to God.
*********************************************
My response basically stated that those verses
do not say anything about this being every person,
at the same time, while alive on Earth.
Glenn sent the following post, which I will start
with his words and note that he mixed more
than one passage together. The Bible does not
say, "and every knee will bow when He comes
in glory". Anyway, the following is what Glenn
posted...
**************************************************
And He said, yet they still won't believe. But they
will when the Son of Man comes with great power
and Glory. And every knee shall bow and every
tongue shall confess.
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Please, just the scripture, no interpretation or
translation, none of this "well, what it says is,
but WHAT THAT MEANS IS..."
Any will do, which scriptures says "they will bow
_while they live_? which scripture says "they will
bow _when they die_?
come on now, lets see it!
Don't give us a passage that YOU THINK means that...
Just the scripture, we can look it up.
thanks
And don't dodge it and post passages that YOU THINK
mean that. I want to see the words of THE BIBLE
saying it, not saying something else and then you
telling me how "It REALLY means...". (:
Preterism is a lie.
****************************************************
That was Glenn's post and note, he tries to use my
phrase against me.
Anyway, I posted the following in response....
***************************************************
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Why would you foolishly argue that people will not
stand and be judged when they die?
Pleasse, just the scripture, no interpretation or
translation, none of this "well, what it says is,
but WHAT THAT MEANS IS..."
That is your job and that is what you have continually
done. I am not the one making a claim here. If you
people believe it is when He returns, then provide the
passage.
It is a Biblical fact that we will all stand before
the judgment seat of Christ.
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? Or why dost
thou set at naught thy brother? For we shall all stand
before the judgment seat of Christ." - Romans 14:10
It is a Biblical fact that we will die and THEN we will
be judged.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
Note: Die, THEN AFTER THAT HAPPENS, judgment.
Now notice where the passage that Daniel quoted
(see below) as supposed proof actually fits in. It is
the next verse AFTER the one I quoted above and
this shows that grabbing ONE VERSE out and trying
to build a doctrine on it, is a bad practice!
"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every
knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall
confess to God." - Romans 4:11
Thus, everyone will kneel before Christ, after they
die. Of that there is no doubt. Did you not remember
these verses?
Now if you want to claim that there is a passage that
says that everyone on Earth, will kneel before Christ,
at the same time, while on Earth, when He physically
returns, then provide it.
The Bible does not teach that. This doctrine that says
that Christ will come to Earth and every knee shall bow
while He is on Earth and people are still living humans
is a false doctrine. The Bible shows that we all stand
at the judgment seat of Christ, AFTER DEATH.
****************************************************
Now note folks, I DID POST PASSAGES.
As for his response that I will quote below...
Note that Glenn responds by snipping my passage
quotes and then acts as if I did NOT post any passages!
He claims I insulted him instead. Glenn started by
trying to insult ME. He shouldn't complain!
The point is, that he goes so far as to say that I
COULD NOT quote a passage, when I clearly DID.
The problem for Glenn, is that I posted one that
showed that the Bible says that it is after we die,
that we kneel before the judgment seat of Christ
and so, he snipped what I quoted.
The topic was about every knee bowing before
the judgment seat of Christ.
You will also see however, that Glenn changed
the wording of his claim, from this...
GLENN: But they will when the Son of Man comes
with great power and Glory. And every knee shall
bow and every tongue shall confess.
To this, after I proved my point...
GLENN: But they will [see Him] when the Son
of Man comes with great power and Glory.
And then he has THE GALL to claim that *I*
changed it!
Anyway, here is what he responded with.
Note the deceptions...
******************************************************
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Why would you foolishly argue that people will not
stand and be judged when they die?
See, you can't give the scripture, so you answer a
request with ridicule.
the statement was:
But they will [see Him] when the Son of Man
comes with great power and Glory.
and you replied:
Yes, when they die.
The scripture was: "when the Son of Man comes with
great power and Glory...
and CHANGE IT TO " yes, when they die...
I asked for scripture to support your change
just post your scripture between the lines
___________________________________________
____________________________________________
thanks Dave.
owd
************************************************************
Now you tell me folks. Who was honest here and who is
the liar?
Thanks for this post, Dave :-)
These three scriptures are about the coming of the Lord
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall *all the tribes of the earth* mourn,
*and they shall see* the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and *every eye shall see him*,
and they also which pierced him:
and *all kindreds of the earth* shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a
name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus *every knee should bow*, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that *every tongue should confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.
The above thee scriptures are about the Coming of the Lord. That did not
happen in AD 70, so Dave has to deny that "every knee shall bow" and
"every eye shall see Him" IS ABOUT THE COMING OF THE LORD.
The Point being, that those who reject Him shall see Him.
(This has NOT happened)
The Point is, that those who reject Him WILL bow to Him.
(This has NOT happened)
The Point is that every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord
(This hs NOT happened)
IT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET!!
Because that has NOT happened, then Preterism is proved false.
owd
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
-----
With all your getting, get understanding. Solomon
..
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ananias917" |
|
| Title: Re: TO TELL THE TRUTH: YOU DECIDE |
27 Dec 2005 02:59:48 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:02:37 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Now you tell me folks. Who was honest here and who is
the liar?
Thanks for this post, Dave :-)
It proved you are a liar.
These three scriptures are about the coming of the Lord
And not one of them say what you claim about everyone
kneeling before Christ while on Earth, at His coming.
See below.
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall *all the tribes of the earth* mourn,
*and they shall see* the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and *every eye shall see him*,
and they also which pierced him:
and *all kindreds of the earth* shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a
name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus *every knee should bow*, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that *every tongue should confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.
The above thee scriptures are about the Coming of the Lord.
That is a lie. Philippians 2:9-11 was put there by
you. It doesn't say one word about that happening
at the coming of the Lord.
Your say so, which is that of a liar, is not good
enough. You left out the verse that shows it is
the exact opposite of your claim.
In context, it says...
Philippians 2:8-11
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled
himself, and became obedient unto death, even the
death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and
given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things
under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It specifically talks about Jesus being exalted,
because He dies on the cross. This is not the
end, or our faith would be in vain.
"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching
vain, and your faith is also vain." - 1 Cor 15:14
That did not happen in AD 70, so Dave has to deny that "every knee shall bow" and
"every eye shall see Him" IS ABOUT THE COMING OF THE LORD.
You can whine all you want to, but Philippians is
speaking about something that already happened.
The passage in Philippians speaks about His
crucifixion and then His being exalted, which
could only have happened after He rose, since
a dead Savior is not an exalted Savior. He went
to Heaven after He rose, which proves that
Philippians is talking about His being exalted
and enthroned in Heaven, just as Daniel said
and that this is something that already happened.
Daniel 7:13-14
13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold,
one like the Son of man came with the
clouds of heaven, and came *_TO_* the
Ancient of days, and they brought him near
before him.
14) And there was given him dominion, and
glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations,
and languages, should serve him: his dominion
is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass
away, and his kingdom that which shall not be
destroyed.
Note: TO the Ancient of Days (Father).
Note: He was given dominion at that point.
Note: IS an everlasting dominion. That's
present tense to His ascension.
Note: Dominion over THE NATIONS, AT
HIS ASCENSION!
Now what is clear here, is that you did not confess
to your having changed the words of your claim.
What is also clear is that you took Philippians 2 and
tried to make it about His return, when it was about
His crucifixion and ascension.
And as for Revelation 1:7, when it says that every eye
shall see Him, it also says, "EVEN THEY WHICH
PIERCED HIM".
Now since the resurrection doesn't happen until AFTER
people see Him returning and since "they who pierced
Him" have to be alive to see Him, that puts it smack
into the first century! Either that, or the Bible is
wrong.
Now I know you have no problem erasing whatever words
in the Bible cause a problem for your doctrine and that
you like to claim that whatever words contradict your
personal doctrine were added by profane men, but I
won't do that to my Bible.
Are you now going to tell us that the words, "even they
which pierced him" were added by profane men?
And are you going to confess to what everyone has
already seen, which was you changing your claim,
when I proved you wrong?
The topic was when "every knee shall bow" before
the judgment seat of Christ.
You changed the wording of your claim from this...
GLENN: But they will when the Son of Man comes
with great power and Glory. And every knee shall
bow and every tongue shall confess.
To this, after I proved my point...
GLENN: But they will [see Him] when the Son
of Man comes with great power and Glory.
And then you had THE GALL to claim that *I*
changed it!
And you falsely claimed that Philippians 2:9-11
is about His return, when it is about His death
and resurrection to exaltation. And you did
so intentionally. In looking at the verses to
quote them, you had to see v8.
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
Would a loving God send people to Hell?
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/hell.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "oldwetdog" |
|
| Title: Re: TO TELL THE TRUTH: YOU DECIDE |
27 Dec 2005 03:16:10 PM |
|
|
Ananias917 wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:02:37 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Now you tell me folks. Who was honest here and who is
the liar?
Thanks for this post, Dave :-)
It proved you are a liar.
These three scriptures are about the coming of the Lord
And not one of them say what you claim about everyone
kneeling before Christ while on Earth, at His coming.
See below.
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall *all the tribes of the earth* mourn,
*and they shall see* the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and *every eye shall see him*,
and they also which pierced him:
and *all kindreds of the earth* shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a
name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus *every knee should bow*, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that *every tongue should confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.
The above thee scriptures are about the Coming of the Lord.
That is a lie. Philippians 2:9-11 was put there by
you. It doesn't say one word about that happening
at the coming of the Lord.
Your say so, which is that of a liar, is not good
enough. You left out the verse that shows it is
the exact opposite of your claim.
In context, it says...
Philippians 2:8-11
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled
himself, and became obedient unto death, even the
death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and
given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things
under the earth;
You are trying to tell us that "every knee "bowed in AD 70?
is that it?
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It specifically talks about Jesus being exalted,
because He dies on the cross. This is not the
end, or our faith would be in vain.
"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching
vain, and your faith is also vain." - 1 Cor 15:14
That did not happen in AD 70, so Dave has to deny that "every knee shall bow" and
"every eye shall see Him" IS ABOUT THE COMING OF THE LORD.
You can whine all you want to, but Philippians is
speaking about something that already happened.
The passage in Philippians speaks about His
crucifixion and then His being exalted, which
could only have happened after He rose, since
a dead Savior is not an exalted Savior.
You are trying to tell us that "every knee" bowed in AD 30?
is that it?
He went
to Heaven after He rose, which proves that
Philippians is talking about His being exalted
and enthroned in Heaven, just as Daniel said
and that this is something that already happened.
Daniel 7:13-14
13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold,
one like the Son of man came with the
clouds of heaven, and came *_TO_* the
Ancient of days, and they brought him near
before him.
14) And there was given him dominion, and
glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations,
and languages, should serve him: his dominion
is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass
away, and his kingdom that which shall not be
destroyed.
Note: TO the Ancient of Days (Father).
Note: He was given dominion at that point.
Note: IS an everlasting dominion. That's
present tense to His ascension.
Note: Dominion over THE NATIONS, AT
HIS ASCENSION!
Now what is clear here, is that you did not confess
to your having changed the words of your claim.
You are trying to tell us that "every knee "bowed in AD 30?
is that it?
What is also clear is that you took Philippians 2 and
tried to make it about His return, when it was about
His crucifixion and ascension.
And as for Revelation 1:7, when it says that every eye
shall see Him, it also says, "EVEN THEY WHICH
PIERCED HIM".
Now since the resurrection doesn't happen until AFTER
people see Him returning and since "they who pierced
Him" have to be alive to see Him, that puts it smack
into the first century! Either that, or the Bible is
wrong.
You are trying to tell us that "every knee "bowed in AD 70?
is that it?
Now I know you have no problem erasing whatever words
in the Bible cause a problem for your doctrine and that
you like to claim that whatever words contradict your
personal doctrine were added by profane men, but I
won't do that to my Bible.
Are you now going to tell us that the words, "even they
which pierced him" were added by profane men?
And are you going to confess to what everyone has
already seen, which was you changing your claim,
when I proved you wrong?
The topic was when "every knee shall bow" before
the judgment seat of Christ.
You changed the wording of your claim from this...
GLENN: But they will when the Son of Man comes
with great power and Glory. And every knee shall
bow and every tongue shall confess.
To this, after I proved my point...
GLENN: But they will [see Him] when the Son
of Man comes with great power and Glory.
And then you had THE GALL to claim that *I*
changed it!
And you falsely claimed that Philippians 2:9-11
is about His return, when it is about His death
and resurrection to exaltation. And you did
so intentionally. In looking at the verses to
quote them, you had to see v8.
I correctly claim that "every eye shall see Him" WHEN HE COMES
I correctly claim that "every KNEE SHALL BOW before Him" WHEN HE COMES
I correctly claim that "every *tongue will confess* Him" WHEN HE COMES
It is obvious to every one who loves Truth that "every eye" has not seen
Him yet.
It is obvious to every one who loves Truth that "every knee" has not
bowed to Him yet.
It is obvious to every one who loves Truth that "every tongue" has not
confessed His Name, yet.
Not Yet.
Preterism is a lie.
owd
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
-----
With all your getting, get understanding. Solomon
..
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ananias917" |
|
| Title: Re: TO TELL THE TRUTH: YOU DECIDE |
27 Dec 2005 03:40:02 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:16:10 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Ananias917 wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:02:37 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Now you tell me folks. Who was honest here and who is
the liar?
Thanks for this post, Dave :-)
It proved you are a liar.
These three scriptures are about the coming of the Lord
And not one of them say what you claim about everyone
kneeling before Christ while on Earth, at His coming.
See below.
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall *all the tribes of the earth* mourn,
*and they shall see* the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and *every eye shall see him*,
and they also which pierced him:
and *all kindreds of the earth* shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a
name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus *every knee should bow*, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that *every tongue should confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.
The above thee scriptures are about the Coming of the Lord.
That is a lie. Philippians 2:9-11 was put there by
you. It doesn't say one word about that happening
at the coming of the Lord.
Your say so, which is that of a liar, is not good
enough. You left out the verse that shows it is
the exact opposite of your claim.
In context, it says...
Philippians 2:8-11
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled
himself, and became obedient unto death, even the
death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and
given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things
under the earth;
You are trying to tell us that "every knee "bowed in AD 70?
is that it?
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It specifically talks about Jesus being exalted,
because He dies on the cross. This is not the
end, or our faith would be in vain.
"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching
vain, and your faith is also vain." - 1 Cor 15:14
That did not happen in AD 70, so Dave has to deny that "every knee shall bow" and
"every eye shall see Him" IS ABOUT THE COMING OF THE LORD.
You can whine all you want to, but Philippians is
speaking about something that already happened.
The passage in Philippians speaks about His
crucifixion and then His being exalted, which
could only have happened after He rose, since
a dead Savior is not an exalted Savior.
You are trying to tell us that "every knee" bowed in AD 30?
is that it?
He went
to Heaven after He rose, which proves that
Philippians is talking about His being exalted
and enthroned in Heaven, just as Daniel said
and that this is something that already happened.
Daniel 7:13-14
13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold,
one like the Son of man came with the
clouds of heaven, and came *_TO_* the
Ancient of days, and they brought him near
before him.
14) And there was given him dominion, and
glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations,
and languages, should serve him: his dominion
is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass
away, and his kingdom that which shall not be
destroyed.
Note: TO the Ancient of Days (Father).
Note: He was given dominion at that point.
Note: IS an everlasting dominion. That's
present tense to His ascension.
Note: Dominion over THE NATIONS, AT
HIS ASCENSION!
Now what is clear here, is that you did not confess
to your having changed the words of your claim.
You are trying to tell us that "every knee "bowed in AD 30?
is that it?
What is also clear is that you took Philippians 2 and
tried to make it about His return, when it was about
His crucifixion and ascension.
And as for Revelation 1:7, when it says that every eye
shall see Him, it also says, "EVEN THEY WHICH
PIERCED HIM".
Now since the resurrection doesn't happen until AFTER
people see Him returning and since "they who pierced
Him" have to be alive to see Him, that puts it smack
into the first century! Either that, or the Bible is
wrong.
You are trying to tell us that "every knee "bowed in AD 70?
is that it?
Now I know you have no problem erasing whatever words
in the Bible cause a problem for your doctrine and that
you like to claim that whatever words contradict your
personal doctrine were added by profane men, but I
won't do that to my Bible.
Are you now going to tell us that the words, "even they
which pierced him" were added by profane men?
And are you going to confess to what everyone has
already seen, which was you changing your claim,
when I proved you wrong?
The topic was when "every knee shall bow" before
the judgment seat of Christ.
You changed the wording of your claim from this...
GLENN: But they will when the Son of Man comes
with great power and Glory. And every knee shall
bow and every tongue shall confess.
To this, after I proved my point...
GLENN: But they will [see Him] when the Son
of Man comes with great power and Glory.
And then you had THE GALL to claim that *I*
changed it!
And you falsely claimed that Philippians 2:9-11
is about His return, when it is about His death
and resurrection to exaltation. And you did
so intentionally. In looking at the verses to
quote them, you had to see v8.
I correctly claim that "every eye shall see Him" WHEN HE COMES
I correctly claim that "every KNEE SHALL BOW before Him" WHEN HE COMES
I correctly claim that "every *tongue will confess* Him" WHEN HE COMES
It is obvious to every one who loves Truth that "every eye" has not seen
Him yet.
It is obvious to every one who loves Truth that "every knee" has not
bowed to Him yet.
It is obvious to every one who loves Truth that "every tongue" has not
confessed His Name, yet.
Not Yet.
Preterism is a lie.
You can whine all you want. You were just caught lying
about what Philippians 2:9-11 says. Of course, as
usual, you did not confess.
You are an evil man and a liar!
You also ignored the fact that Revelation 1:7 proves a
first century return.
You also ignored the fact that you have not proved
that "every knee shall bow" has anything to do with
the time of His return.
I have however, proved that that phrase is not tied
to His return and that the words about appearing
in front of the judgment seat of Christ are related
to the time after we each die.
And of course, in this message, after failing to admit
that you were lying, you still demand an answer about
this, when it would assume that your lie is truth.
I cannot show you what you request, because your
request is based on the lie that you told being true
and it is not true, since it is a lie.
I ask again, where is this phrase "every knee shall
bow" tied to the exact time of His return?
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
Would a loving God send people to Hell?
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/hell.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "oldwetdog" |
|
| Title: Re: TO TELL THE TRUTH: YOU DECIDE |
27 Dec 2005 03:57:50 PM |
|
|
Ananias917 wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:16:10 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
snip to the point
I ask again, where is this phrase "every knee shall
bow" tied to the exact time of His return?
So, let me get this right...
You are claiming that "every knee WILL NOT BOW when He returns?
is that it?
Or,
You are claiming "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things
in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth" AND ALL THAT
HAPPENED IN AD30...
is that it?
Or are you claiming that He returned in AD 70, and EVERY KNEE BOWED in
"AD 70?
is that it?
Perhaps you mean that "every eye shall see him" does NOT mean when He
returns...
is that it?
Or
Perhaps you are saying that "every tongue will confess His Name" is NOT
talking about when He returns?
is that it?
Wait...
OR
Are you saying that He returned in AD 70, and that every eye saw Him
then, that every tongue confessed His name in AD 70, that every Knee
bowed in AD 70..."
is that it?
Dave, Preterism is a lie.
The heavens and earth have NOT passed away... yet
NOT a jot nor a tittle has passed from the Law (it is fullfilled)
ALL has NOT been fulfilled, yet.
Face it, Dave, Preterism is a lie.
owd
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
-----
With all your getting, get understanding. Solomon
..
.
|
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|
| User: "Ananias917" |
|
| Title: Re: TO TELL THE TRUTH: YOU DECIDE |
27 Dec 2005 07:40:39 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:57:50 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Ananias917 wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:16:10 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
snip to the point
I ask again, where is this phrase "every knee shall
bow" tied to the exact time of His return?
So, let me get this right...
You are claiming that "every knee WILL NOT BOW when He returns?
is that it?
Listen, stupid, this isn't about me and snipping your
lies will not make them go away.
Nor will your demand that I prove your claim that
Jesus will return physically and bodily, by first
granting you that He will return physically and
bodily work either!
You talk about "the Truth".
Let's look at "the Truth".
You INTENTIONALLY LIED and misrepresented
what Philippians 2:9-11 says!
You have AGAIN FILED to support your claim!
Here is the post again. And in it, you are proved
O-N-C-E A-G-A-I-N
....to be THE LIAR that you are!!!
*****************************************************
Now you tell me folks. Who was honest here and who is
the liar?
Thanks for this post, Dave :-)
It proved you are a liar.
These three scriptures are about the coming of the Lord
And not one of them say what you claim about everyone
kneeling before Christ while on Earth, at His coming.
See below.
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall *all the tribes of the earth* mourn,
*and they shall see* the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and *every eye shall see him*,
and they also which pierced him:
and *all kindreds of the earth* shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a
name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus *every knee should bow*, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that *every tongue should confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.
The above thee scriptures are about the Coming of the Lord.
That is a lie. Philippians 2:9-11 was put there by
you. It doesn't say one word about that happening
at the coming of the Lord.
Your say so, which is that of a liar, is not good
enough. You left out the verse that shows it is
the exact opposite of your claim.
In context, it says...
Philippians 2:8-11
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled
himself, and became obedient unto death, even the
death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and
given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things
under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It specifically talks about Jesus being exalted,
because He dies on the cross. This is not the
end, or our faith would be in vain.
"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching
vain, and your faith is also vain." - 1 Cor 15:14
That did not happen in AD 70, so Dave has to deny that "every knee shall bow" and
"every eye shall see Him" IS ABOUT THE COMING OF THE LORD.
You can whine all you want to, but Philippians is
speaking about something that already happened.
The passage in Philippians speaks about His
crucifixion and then His being exalted, which
could only have happened after He rose, since
a dead Savior is not an exalted Savior. He went
to Heaven after He rose, which proves that
Philippians is talking about His being exalted
and enthroned in Heaven, just as Daniel said
and that this is something that already happened.
Daniel 7:13-14
13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold,
one like the Son of man came with the
clouds of heaven, and came *_TO_* the
Ancient of days, and they brought him near
before him.
14) And there was given him dominion, and
glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations,
and languages, should serve him: his dominion
is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass
away, and his kingdom that which shall not be
destroyed.
Note: TO the Ancient of Days (Father).
Note: He was given dominion at that point.
Note: IS an everlasting dominion. That's
present tense to His ascension.
Note: Dominion over THE NATIONS, AT
HIS ASCENSION!
Now what is clear here, is that you did not confess
to your having changed the words of your claim.
What is also clear is that you took Philippians 2 and
tried to make it about His return, when it was about
His crucifixion and ascension.
And as for Revelation 1:7, when it says that every eye
shall see Him, it also says, "EVEN THEY WHICH
PIERCED HIM".
Now since the resurrection doesn't happen until AFTER
people see Him returning and since "they who pierced
Him" have to be alive to see Him, that puts it smack
into the first century! Either that, or the Bible is
wrong.
Now I know you have no problem erasing whatever words
in the Bible cause a problem for your doctrine and that
you like to claim that whatever words contradict your
personal doctrine were added by profane men, but I
won't do that to my Bible.
Are you now going to tell us that the words, "even they
which pierced him" were added by profane men?
And are you going to confess to what everyone has
already seen, which was you changing your claim,
when I proved you wrong?
The topic was when "every knee shall bow" before
the judgment seat of Christ.
You changed the wording of your claim from this...
GLENN: But they will when the Son of Man comes
with great power and Glory. And every knee shall
bow and every tongue shall confess.
To this, after I proved my point...
GLENN: But they will [see Him] when the Son
of Man comes with great power and Glory.
And then you had THE GALL to claim that *I*
changed it!
And you falsely claimed that Philippians 2:9-11
is about His return, when it is about His death
and resurrection to exaltation. And you did
so intentionally. In looking at the verses to
quote them, you had to see v8.
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
Would a loving God send people to Hell?
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/hell.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "oldwetdog" |
|
| Title: Re: TO TELL THE TRUTH: YOU DECIDE |
27 Dec 2005 07:48:57 PM |
|
|
Ananias917 wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:57:50 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Every Knee Shall Bow
These scriptures describe events which will occur at the coming of the Lord
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall *all the tribes of the earth* mourn,
*and they shall see* the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory. Mat 24:30
Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and *every eye shall see him*,
and they also which pierced him:
and *all kindreds of the earth* shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen. Re 1:7
The first two, above, DO contain the statement "the Son of man coming,"
or "he cometh with clouds..."
The events described as occurring at that same time are:
a) All the tribes of the earth mourn
b) and they shall see Him coming
c) every eye shall see Him
d) all the kindreds of the earth shall wail
Now, compare the events described in the scriptures below:
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in
righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear.
e) every knee shall bow
f) every tongue shall swear
Ro 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall
bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
g) every knee shall bow
h) every tongue shall confess
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a
name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus *every knee should bow*, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that *every tongue should confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.
i) every knee should bow
j) every tongue should confess
Now: what is there in the second set that indicates the same events (as
described) shall NOT happen at the same time as the first set?
Nothing! The events are the same, and will all occur at the same
time--the coming of the Lord.
The above events (every eye, tongue, knee, tribe) are about the Coming
of the Lord. That did not happen in AD 70, so Preterists have to deny
that "every knee shall bow" and "every eye shall see Him" IS ABOUT THE
COMING OF THE LORD.
The Point being, that those who reject Him shall see Him.
(This has NOT happened)
The Point is, that those who reject Him WILL bow to Him.
(This has NOT happened)
The Point is that every tongue which has denied Him SHALL CONFESS that
Jesus is Lord
(This has NOT happened)
IT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET!!
Because that has NOT happened, then Preterism is proved false.
owd
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
-----
With all your getting, get understanding. Solomon
..
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more
ungodliness 2Ti 2:16
.
|
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| User: "Ananias917" |
|
| Title: Re: TO TELL THE TRUTH: YOU DECIDE |
28 Dec 2005 06:39:16 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:48:57 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Every Knee Shall Bow
These scriptures describe events which will occur at the coming of the Lord
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall *all the tribes of the earth* mourn,
*and they shall see* the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory. Mat 24:30
Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and *every eye shall see him*,
and they also which pierced him:
and *all kindreds of the earth* shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen. Re 1:7
The first two, above, DO contain the statement "the Son of man coming,"
or "he cometh with clouds..."
The events described as occurring at that same time are:
a) All the tribes of the earth mourn
b) and they shall see Him coming
c) every eye shall see Him
d) all the kindreds of the earth shall wail
Now, compare the events described in the scriptures below:
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a
name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus *every knee should bow*, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that *every tongue should confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.
i) every knee should bow
j) every tongue should confess
I see that Glenn has now once again changed his claims,
based on the fact that I exposed his lie. Now he's
trying to justify his outright lie and claim that he
really was being honest.
Let's take a look at this from his other messages,
in which Glenn kept trying to ignore the truth.
The following is from this thread...
Here are two posts. You decide, since Glenn is now
just trying to cover his ***** here, since his lies have
been exposed...
************BEGIN FIRST POST QUOTE*************
Hi,
You decide who is being honest here.
The topic is when "every knee shall bow" before
the judgment seat of Christ.
A claim was made that when the Bible says that,
"every knee shall bow", that it is talking about
when Christ returns. This would obviously mean
that people living on Earth, would all kneel in
front of Christ, upon His return.
I said that everyone will kneel before Christ,
after they die and are judged.
I also asked for proof and the following passages
were quoted...
*********************************************
(Isaiah 45:23) I have sworn by myself, the word
is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and
shall not return, That unto me every knee shall
bow, every tongue shall swear.
(Romans 14:11) For it is written, As I live, saith
the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every
tongue shall confess to God.
*********************************************
My response basically stated that those verses
do not say anything about this being every person,
at the same time, while alive on Earth.
Glenn sent the following post, which I will start
with his words and note that he mixed more
than one passage together. The Bible does not
say, "and every knee will bow when He comes
in glory". Anyway, the following is what Glenn
posted...
**************************************************
And He said, yet they still won't believe. But they
will when the Son of Man comes with great power
and Glory. And every knee shall bow and every
tongue shall confess.
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Please, just the scripture, no interpretation or
translation, none of this "well, what it says is,
but WHAT THAT MEANS IS..."
Any will do, which scriptures says "they will bow
_while they live_? which scripture says "they will
bow _when they die_?
come on now, lets see it!
Don't give us a passage that YOU THINK means that...
Just the scripture, we can look it up.
thanks
And don't dodge it and post passages that YOU THINK
mean that. I want to see the words of THE BIBLE
saying it, not saying something else and then you
telling me how "It REALLY means...". (:
Preterism is a lie.
****************************************************
That was Glenn's post and note, he tries to use my
phrase against me.
Anyway, I posted the following in response....
***************************************************
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Why would you foolishly argue that people will not
stand and be judged when they die?
Pleasse, just the scripture, no interpretation or
translation, none of this "well, what it says is,
but WHAT THAT MEANS IS..."
That is your job and that is what you have continually
done. I am not the one making a claim here. If you
people believe it is when He returns, then provide the
passage.
It is a Biblical fact that we will all stand before
the judgment seat of Christ.
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? Or why dost
thou set at naught thy brother? For we shall all stand
before the judgment seat of Christ." - Romans 14:10
It is a Biblical fact that we will die and THEN we will
be judged.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
Note: Die, THEN AFTER THAT HAPPENS, judgment.
Now notice where the passage that Daniel quoted
(see below) as supposed proof actually fits in. It is
the next verse AFTER the one I quoted above and
this shows that grabbing ONE VERSE out and trying
to build a doctrine on it, is a bad practice!
"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every
knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall
confess to God." - Romans 4:11
Thus, everyone will kneel before Christ, after they
die. Of that there is no doubt. Did you not remember
these verses?
Now if you want to claim that there is a passage that
says that everyone on Earth, will kneel before Christ,
at the same time, while on Earth, when He physically
returns, then provide it.
The Bible does not teach that. This doctrine that says
that Christ will come to Earth and every knee shall bow
while He is on Earth and people are still living humans
is a false doctrine. The Bible shows that we all stand
at the judgment seat of Christ, AFTER DEATH.
****************************************************
Now note folks, I DID POST PASSAGES.
As for his response that I will quote below...
Note that Glenn responds by snipping my passage
quotes and then acts as if I did NOT post any passages!
He claims I insulted him instead. Glenn started by
trying to insult ME. He shouldn't complain!
The point is, that he goes so far as to say that I
COULD NOT quote a passage, when I clearly DID.
The problem for Glenn, is that I posted one that
showed that the Bible says that it is after we die,
that we kneel before the judgment seat of Christ
and so, he snipped what I quoted.
The topic was about every knee bowing before
the judgment seat of Christ.
You will also see however, that Glenn changed
the wording of his claim, from this...
GLENN: But they will when the Son of Man comes
with great power and Glory. And every knee shall
bow and every tongue shall confess.
To this, after I proved my point...
GLENN: But they will [see Him] when the Son
of Man comes with great power and Glory.
And then he has THE GALL to claim that *I*
changed it!
Anyway, here is what he responded with.
Note the deceptions...
******************************************************
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Why would you foolishly argue that people will not
stand and be judged when they die?
See, you can't give the scripture, so you answer a
request with ridicule.
the statement was:
But they will [see Him] when the Son of Man
comes with great power and Glory.
and you replied:
Yes, when they die.
The scripture was: "when the Son of Man comes with
great power and Glory...
and CHANGE IT TO " yes, when they die...
I asked for scripture to support your change
just post your scripture between the lines
___________________________________________
____________________________________________
thanks Dave.
owd
************************************************************
Now you tell me folks. Who was honest here and who is
the liar?
***************END FIRST POST QUOTE********************
And here is the second post, which is actually
a few posts later...
****************BEGIN SECOND POST QUOTE***************
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:57:50 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Ananias917 wrote:
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:16:10 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
snip to the point
I ask again, where is this phrase "every knee shall
bow" tied to the exact time of His return?
So, let me get this right...
You are claiming that "every knee WILL NOT BOW when He returns?
is that it?
Listen, stupid, this isn't about me and snipping your
lies will not make them go away.
Nor will your demand that I prove your claim that
Jesus will return physically and bodily, by first
granting you that He will return physically and
bodily work either!
You talk about "the Truth".
Let's look at "the Truth".
You INTENTIONALLY LIED and misrepresented
what Philippians 2:9-11 says!
You have AGAIN FILED to support your claim!
Here is the post again. And in it, you are proved
O-N-C-E A-G-A-I-N
....to be THE LIAR that you are!!!
*****************************************************
Now you tell me folks. Who was honest here and who is
the liar?
Thanks for this post, Dave :-)
It proved you are a liar.
These three scriptures are about the coming of the Lord
And not one of them say what you claim about everyone
kneeling before Christ while on Earth, at His coming.
See below.
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall *all the tribes of the earth* mourn,
*and they shall see* the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and *every eye shall see him*,
and they also which pierced him:
and *all kindreds of the earth* shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a
name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus *every knee should bow*, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that *every tongue should confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.
The above thee scriptures are about the Coming of the Lord.
That is a lie. Philippians 2:9-11 was put there by
you. It doesn't say one word about that happening
at the coming of the Lord.
Your say so, which is that of a liar, is not good
enough. You left out the verse that shows it is
the exact opposite of your claim.
In context, it says...
Philippians 2:8-11
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled
himself, and became obedient unto death, even the
death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and
given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things
under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It specifically talks about Jesus being exalted,
because He dies on the cross. This is not the
end, or our faith would be in vain.
"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching
vain, and your faith is also vain." - 1 Cor 15:14
That did not happen in AD 70, so Dave has to deny that "every knee shall bow" and
"every eye shall see Him" IS ABOUT THE COMING OF THE LORD.
You can whine all you want to, but Philippians is
speaking about something that already happened.
The passage in Philippians speaks about His
crucifixion and then His being exalted, which
could only have happened after He rose, since
a dead Savior is not an exalted Savior. He went
to Heaven after He rose, which proves that
Philippians is talking about His being exalted
and enthroned in Heaven, just as Daniel said
and that this is something that already happened.
Daniel 7:13-14
13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold,
one like the Son of man came with the
clouds of heaven, and came *_TO_* the
Ancient of days, and they brought him near
before him.
14) And there was given him dominion, and
glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations,
and languages, should serve him: his dominion
is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass
away, and his kingdom that which shall not be
destroyed.
Note: TO the Ancient of Days (Father).
Note: He was given dominion at that point.
Note: IS an everlasting dominion. That's
present tense to His ascension.
Note: Dominion over THE NATIONS, AT
HIS ASCENSION!
Now what is clear here, is that you did not confess
to your having changed the words of your claim.
What is also clear is that you took Philippians 2 and
tried to make it about His return, when it was about
His crucifixion and ascension.
And as for Revelation 1:7, when it says that every eye
shall see Him, it also says, "EVEN THEY WHICH
PIERCED HIM".
Now since the resurrection doesn't happen until AFTER
people see Him returning and since "they who pierced
Him" have to be alive to see Him, that puts it smack
into the first century! Either that, or the Bible is
wrong.
Now I know you have no problem erasing whatever words
in the Bible cause a problem for your doctrine and that
you like to claim that whatever words contradict your
personal doctrine were added by profane men, but I
won't do that to my Bible.
Are you now going to tell us that the words, "even they
which pierced him" were added by profane men?
And are you going to confess to what everyone has
already seen, which was you changing your claim,
when I proved you wrong?
The topic was when "every knee shall bow" before
the judgment seat of Christ.
You changed the wording of your claim from this...
GLENN: But they will when the Son of Man comes
with great power and Glory. And every knee shall
bow and every tongue shall confess.
To this, after I proved my point...
GLENN: But they will [see Him] when the Son
of Man comes with great power and Glory.
And then you had THE GALL to claim that *I*
changed it!
And you falsely claimed that Philippians 2:9-11
is about His return, when it is about His death
and resurrection to exaltation. And you did
so intentionally. In looking at the verses to
quote them, you had to see v8.
****************************************************
**************END SECOND POST QUOTE***********
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
Would a loving God send people to Hell?
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/hell.html
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| User: "Photo Gallery Stephen" |
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| Title: Re: TO TELL THE TRUTH: YOU DECIDE |
27 Dec 2005 02:52:36 PM |
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Yes it is up to the individual to decide who is honest
--
My Photo Galleries Scotland UK Holland
http://spaces.msn.com/members/perserverance/
"oldwetdog" <oldwetdog@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11r37f1atdcav7f@corp.supernews.com...
Ananias917 wrote:
Hi,
You decide who is being honest here.
The topic is when "every knee shall bow" before
the judgment seat of Christ.
A claim was made that when the Bible says that,
"every knee shall bow", that it is talking about
when Christ returns. This would obviously mean
that people living on Earth, would all kneel in
front of Christ, upon His return.
I said that everyone will kneel before Christ,
after they die and are judged.
I also asked for proof and the following passages
were quoted...
*********************************************
(Isaiah 45:23) I have sworn by myself, the word
is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and
shall not return, That unto me every knee shall
bow, every tongue shall swear.
(Romans 14:11) For it is written, As I live, saith
the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every
tongue shall confess to God.
*********************************************
My response basically stated that those verses
do not say anything about this being every person,
at the same time, while alive on Earth.
Glenn sent the following post, which I will start
with his words and note that he mixed more
than one passage together. The Bible does not
say, "and every knee will bow when He comes
in glory". Anyway, the following is what Glenn
posted...
**************************************************
And He said, yet they still won't believe. But they
will when the Son of Man comes with great power
and Glory. And every knee shall bow and every
tongue shall confess.
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Please, just the scripture, no interpretation or
translation, none of this "well, what it says is,
but WHAT THAT MEANS IS..."
Any will do, which scriptures says "they will bow
_while they live_? which scripture says "they will
bow _when they die_?
come on now, lets see it!
Don't give us a passage that YOU THINK means that...
Just the scripture, we can look it up.
thanks
And don't dodge it and post passages that YOU THINK
mean that. I want to see the words of THE BIBLE
saying it, not saying something else and then you
telling me how "It REALLY means...". (:
Preterism is a lie.
****************************************************
That was Glenn's post and note, he tries to use my
phrase against me.
Anyway, I posted the following in response....
***************************************************
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Why would you foolishly argue that people will not
stand and be judged when they die?
Pleasse, just the scripture, no interpretation or
translation, none of this "well, what it says is,
but WHAT THAT MEANS IS..."
That is your job and that is what you have continually
done. I am not the one making a claim here. If you
people believe it is when He returns, then provide the
passage.
It is a Biblical fact that we will all stand before
the judgment seat of Christ.
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? Or why dost
thou set at naught thy brother? For we shall all stand
before the judgment seat of Christ." - Romans 14:10
It is a Biblical fact that we will die and THEN we will
be judged.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
Note: Die, THEN AFTER THAT HAPPENS, judgment.
Now notice where the passage that Daniel quoted
(see below) as supposed proof actually fits in. It is
the next verse AFTER the one I quoted above and
this shows that grabbing ONE VERSE out and trying
to build a doctrine on it, is a bad practice!
"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every
knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall
confess to God." - Romans 4:11
Thus, everyone will kneel before Christ, after they
die. Of that there is no doubt. Did you not remember
these verses?
Now if you want to claim that there is a passage that
says that everyone on Earth, will kneel before Christ,
at the same time, while on Earth, when He physically
returns, then provide it.
The Bible does not teach that. This doctrine that says
that Christ will come to Earth and every knee shall bow
while He is on Earth and people are still living humans
is a false doctrine. The Bible shows that we all stand
at the judgment seat of Christ, AFTER DEATH.
****************************************************
Now note folks, I DID POST PASSAGES.
As for his response that I will quote below...
Note that Glenn responds by snipping my passage
quotes and then acts as if I did NOT post any passages!
He claims I insulted him instead. Glenn started by
trying to insult ME. He shouldn't complain!
The point is, that he goes so far as to say that I
COULD NOT quote a passage, when I clearly DID.
The problem for Glenn, is that I posted one that
showed that the Bible says that it is after we die,
that we kneel before the judgment seat of Christ
and so, he snipped what I quoted. The topic was about every knee bowing
before
the judgment seat of Christ.
You will also see however, that Glenn changed
the wording of his claim, from this...
GLENN: But they will when the Son of Man comes
with great power and Glory. And every knee shall
bow and every tongue shall confess.
To this, after I proved my point...
GLENN: But they will [see Him] when the Son
of Man comes with great power and Glory.
And then he has THE GALL to claim that *I*
changed it!
Anyway, here is what he responded with.
Note the deceptions...
******************************************************
Yes, when they die. Where does the Bible say that
everyone will do that at the same time, on Earth?
PD, please post your scripture which says " Yes,
when they die. "
Why would you foolishly argue that people will not
stand and be judged when they die?
See, you can't give the scripture, so you answer a
request with ridicule.
the statement was:
But they will [see Him] when the Son of Man
comes with great power and Glory.
and you replied:
Yes, when they die.
The scripture was: "when the Son of Man comes with
great power and Glory...
and CHANGE IT TO " yes, when they die...
I asked for scripture to support your change
just post your scripture between the lines
___________________________________________
____________________________________________
thanks Dave.
owd
************************************************************
Now you tell me folks. Who was honest here and who is
the liar?
Thanks for this post, Dave :-)
These three scriptures are about the coming of the Lord
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall *all the tribes of the earth* mourn,
*and they shall see* the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and *every eye shall see him*,
and they also which pierced him:
and *all kindreds of the earth* shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name
which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus *every knee should bow*, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that *every tongue should confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to
the glory of God the Father.
The above thee scriptures are about the Coming of the Lord. That did not
happen in AD 70, so Dave has to deny that "every knee shall bow" and
"every eye shall see Him" IS ABOUT THE COMING OF THE LORD.
The Point being, that those who reject Him shall see Him.
(This has NOT happened)
The Point is, that those who reject Him WILL bow to Him.
(This has NOT happened)
The Point is that every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord
(This hs NOT happened)
IT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET!!
Because that has NOT happened, then Preterism is proved false.
owd
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
-----
With all your getting, get understanding. Solomon
.
Yes it is up to the individual to decide who is honest
--
My Photo Galleries Scotland UK Holland
http://spaces.msn.com/members/perserverance/
.
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