To understand how Bishop Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homosexuality



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Caiaphas"
Date: 06 Aug 2003 08:44:52 AM
Object: To understand how Bishop Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homosexuality
Episcopalian Bishop-elect V. Gene Robinson is an acknowledge homosexual and
professes to believe in Jesus Christ. In an attempt to understand how Bishop
Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homosexuality, what reasoning are
they using?
The Old Testament has Scripture condemning homosexuality and I think it was the
Apostle Paul who condemned the practice also. But, did Christ condemn this act?
Is that the reasoning?
How about some honest debate on this subject without insulting passions?
.

User: "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER"

Title: Re: To understand how Bishop Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homosexuality 07 Aug 2003 02:42:00 PM
"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:yD7Ya.24$Hy2.455@eagle.america.net...

Episcopalian Bishop-elect V. Gene Robinson is an
acknowledged homosexual and professes to believe
in Jesus Christ. In an attempt to understand how Bishop
Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homo-
sexuality, what reasoning are they using?

The Old Testament has Scripture condemning homo-
sexuality and I think it was the Apostle Paul who con-
demned the practice also. But, did Christ condemn
this act? Is that the reasoning?

How about some honest debate on this subject without
insulting passions?

You mentioned Old Testament and Paul, and therein
resides the christian confusion, for some parts of the
Old Testament are still promoted by christianity, with
other parts dismissed as not part of the "new convenant".
A lot of the Paul-spin on christianity was different than
the Jesus-spin (in the gospels). With a confused phil-
osophical approach to right-and-wrong, christians may
be led in any number of different directions, from the
Old Testament and Pauline views that homosexuality
(by males being the focus, with scant mention of sex
between women) is a sin, to the New Testament Jesus
Christ views that homosexuality is a non-issue (at least
not an issue worthy of anything other than general refer-
ences to the old laws, some supportive, some not so
supportive).
After all, in the passage "be fruitful and multiply", one
must recognize that folks are fruitful (having sex) but
often don't multiply, simply due to reproductive inability,
post-menopause, the woman in the sex act not being
probable to become pregnant (at times in her cycle,
or due to birth control, or due to physical problems or
age, or due to the male using a condom or other means
to prohibit procreation [such as oral or anal sex]), or due
to a decision to termination of a pregnancy (most often,
by act of nature [or god, if one prefers]), or due to same
sex acts of fruitfulness.
I know, that's a very liberal interpretation of being fruitful,
but hey, when it comes to interpretations, therein resides
the ability for humans to perceive a passage in different
ways. They may feel that their perception is what God or
the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ wants, or they may feel
their perception is morally right, or they may feel justified
in their perception based on any number of factors, some
of which may in be in irresoluble paradoxical areas or in
gray areas of multiple choices may be "right".
In any case, why would homosexuality (if "really" a sin)
be any different from any other sin? After all, christians
say they're not better than non-christians, they're just
"forgiven", so why not go with the flow? What's the fear
factor inherent in conservative christianity?
Why amplify homosexuality as a sin-above sins of pride,
arrogance, lying, deception, dishonesty, meanness,
anger, sloth, disbelief, irreverence, disobedience to
parents, not going to church, not tithing, not putting the
Judeo-Christian "God" above all other "gods", over-
eating, smoking, over-drinking, over-drugging, stealing,
etc. _____ (long list of perceived sins goes here)?
Why not simply accept that about ten percent of men
are inclined to be homosexual (or bisexual), and love
them (as sinners, as we all are, supposedly, or better
yet, as humans with genetic instructions in variance
with the majority) and bond with them as fellow humans
on the planet?
Why not study the way homosexuality and bisexuality
were common practices in ancient times in many
cultures, and understand that our modern day reaction
to it is a result of puritanical christian (and muslim) guilt-
trips derived from a "if-it-feels-good-and-religious-ideas-
aren't-involved-there-must-be-something-wrong-with-
it" mindset, and right-wing Republican politics (closely
married to religious fundamentalism), rather than from
a genuine concern for homosexual or bisexual men?
}}} Of note, in addition to social-cultural-religious
influences, genetic factors (some of which may
be dominant over memetic factors) are involved
in sexual inclinations / behavior, as referenced in
some detail below (in Postscript 2).
- - -
Postscript 1: Some New Testament mentions of homo-
sexuality, with no mentions by the supposed Jesus
Christ:
---
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay.htm
---
Romans
With his usual intolerance, Paul condemns homosexuals
(including lesbians). This is the only clear reference to
lesbians in the Bible. 1:26-28
Homosexuals (those "without natural affection") and their
supporters (those "that have pleasure in them") are "worthy
of death" and should be killed. 1:31-32
1 Corinthians
Paul lists ten things that will keep you out of heaven,
including homosexuality and being "effeminate." 6:9-10
1 Timothy
Homosexuals (those "that defile themselves with mankind")
are included in Paul's list of lawless, disobedient, unholy,
and profane people. 1:10
2 Timothy
Paul says that in the last days people will become evil,
"without natural affection." Fundamentalist say that this
refers to homosexuals. 3:3
Jude
God sent "eternal fire" on the people of Sodom and
Gomorrah for "going after strange flesh." 1:7-8
Revelation
John refers to homosexuals as "dogs" and condemns them
to hell. 22:13
- - -
Postscript 2:
Just studies, not necessarily reflective of how a particular
individual may or may not see the world. However, worth
thinking about when pondering why there are pronounced
differences (and similarities) in perceptions of beauty,
sexuality, and the importance attached thereto:
-------------------
Women's Sexual Arousal is All-Encompassing
http://drkoop.com/template.asp?page=newsdetail&ap=93&id=513724
(June 19, 2003)
Excerpts: "Unlike men, they get turned on by far more
sexual scenarios ... women, regardless of their sexual
orientation, tend to be aroused by scenes featuring
heterosexuals, lesbians, or gay men ... in general,
straight men only get turned on by watching women
have sex, either with men or with each other ... hetero-
sexual men were much more excited by lesbian sex
scenes than those featuring men and women ..."
---
Comments:
Well, of course, men and women have differences in
how they perceive the world, but this angle is perhaps
one of the little-discussed aspects of differences. It
might help to explain certain societal anomalies like the
unusual degree of antipathy more than a few men have
towards homosexual men (in addition to that being taught
as dogma by male-founded religions, it's also apparently
inherent in the nature of what most men are turned off by
sexually). Does that justify anti-homosexuality? No, of
course not. Does that explain a biological contributor to
its origins? To some degree.
-------------------
Female Beauty Like a Drug for Heterosexual Men
http://www.ghg.net/phf/2001/11/11.htm
(November 11, 2001)
Excerpt: "... Brain scans show attraction hard-wired in
male brain. ... Researchers said the study, published this
week in the journal Neuron, shows that feminine beauty
affects a man's brain at a very primal level, not on some
higher, more intellectual plane. 'Beauty is working similar
to a drug.' ... The beautiful women were found to activate
the same 'reward circuits' as food and cocaine do. The
men had a negative reaction to pictures of good-looking
males, suggesting they were threatened by them.
- - -
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://www.ghg.net/phf
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
.
User: "Caiaphas"

Title: Re: To understand how Bishop Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homosexuality 07 Aug 2003 06:38:07 PM
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <phf@ghg.net> wrote in message
news:3f32ab7c_2@news.ghg.net...

"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:yD7Ya.24$Hy2.455@eagle.america.net...

Episcopalian Bishop-elect V. Gene Robinson is an
acknowledged homosexual and professes to believe
in Jesus Christ. In an attempt to understand how Bishop
Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homo-
sexuality, what reasoning are they using?

The Old Testament has Scripture condemning homo-
sexuality and I think it was the Apostle Paul who con-
demned the practice also. But, did Christ condemn
this act? Is that the reasoning?

How about some honest debate on this subject without
insulting passions?


You mentioned Old Testament and Paul, and therein
resides the christian confusion, for some parts of the
Old Testament are still promoted by christianity, with
other parts dismissed as not part of the "new convenant".
A lot of the Paul-spin on christianity was different than
the Jesus-spin (in the gospels). With a confused phil-
osophical approach to right-and-wrong, christians may
be led in any number of different directions, from the
Old Testament and Pauline views that homosexuality
(by males being the focus, with scant mention of sex
between women) is a sin, to the New Testament Jesus
Christ views that homosexuality is a non-issue (at least
not an issue worthy of anything other than general refer-
ences to the old laws, some supportive, some not so
supportive).

After all, in the passage "be fruitful and multiply", one
must recognize that folks are fruitful (having sex) but
often don't multiply, simply due to reproductive inability,
post-menopause, the woman in the sex act not being
probable to become pregnant (at times in her cycle,
or due to birth control, or due to physical problems or
age, or due to the male using a condom or other means
to prohibit procreation [such as oral or anal sex]), or due
to a decision to termination of a pregnancy (most often,
by act of nature [or god, if one prefers]), or due to same
sex acts of fruitfulness.

I know, that's a very liberal interpretation of being fruitful,
but hey, when it comes to interpretations, therein resides
the ability for humans to perceive a passage in different
ways. They may feel that their perception is what God or
the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ wants, or they may feel
their perception is morally right, or they may feel justified
in their perception based on any number of factors, some
of which may in be in irresoluble paradoxical areas or in
gray areas of multiple choices may be "right".

In any case, why would homosexuality (if "really" a sin)
be any different from any other sin? After all, christians
say they're not better than non-christians, they're just
"forgiven", so why not go with the flow? What's the fear
factor inherent in conservative christianity?

If the similarity to Homosexuality is Adultery, here is what Jesus said:
"Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses
commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this
question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
7But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When
they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one
of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he
stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first,
until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus
straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned
you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of
sin."
Seems to me that to punish someone for a sin, one must be without sin. You
might have a point in that God sees all types of sin as equally disobedient but
man has a tendacy to rate how bad each sin is based on our cultural values. All
of us are with sin and our sins are as bad as the homosexuality sin, and if we
have a sin in our lives that we refuse to deal with, it is as bad as the
homosexual that continues in the relationship. I still perceive that
homosexuality is a sin along with the other sins you listed like pride,
arrogance, sloth, etc. Christs instructions were to 'go and sin no more'. If
we have hatred in our heart for someone, isn't this as bad as homosexuality in
Gods eyes? If we refuse to deal with the hatred sin, isn't this as bad as the
homosexual who continues to live in the relationship? In the story about the
adultress, the Law of Moses made adultery so sinful that death was the
punishment. But, Christ did not condemn her ("Then neither do I condemn you"),
and told her to go and sin no more. I think Christ was rejecting the harsh
punishments for sin in the Old Covenant in favor of Christians showing
compassion rather than condemnation.
And, neither should Christians 'condemn' homosexuals.


Why amplify homosexuality as a sin-above sins of pride,
arrogance, lying, deception, dishonesty, meanness,
anger, sloth, disbelief, irreverence, disobedience to
parents, not going to church, not tithing, not putting the
Judeo-Christian "God" above all other "gods", over-
eating, smoking, over-drinking, over-drugging, stealing,
etc. _____ (long list of perceived sins goes here)?

Good Point.
.


User: "Ron B."

Title: Re: To understand how Bishop Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homosexuality 06 Aug 2003 08:57:55 AM
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Caiaphas wrote:

Episcopalian Bishop-elect V. Gene Robinson is an acknowledge homosexual
and
professes to believe in Jesus Christ. In an attempt to understand how
Bishop Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homosexuality, what
reasoning are they using?

Caiphas, go to alt.religion.christianity.episcopal to see the on going
debate there. It would be unfair to both sides for me to try to give a
summary of either view in this complex issue.
- --
You can't catch breath in a bottle; and you can't pin it down with paper and
ink; God's living Word dances behind the words of the writers.
- -- Joe (Zayton) in alt.bible
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.

User: "Ron B."

Title: Re: To understand how Bishop Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homosexuality 06 Aug 2003 09:00:17 AM
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Caiaphas wrote:

How about some honest debate on this subject without insulting passions?

That would be difficult as both sides are adament in their positions and
cannot see a possible compromise. You are opening a very large can of
worms here.
- --
You can't catch breath in a bottle; and you can't pin it down with paper and
ink; God's living Word dances behind the words of the writers.
- -- Joe (Zayton) in alt.bible
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.

User: "M. Clark"

Title: Re: To understand how Bishop Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homosexuality 08 Aug 2003 04:06:59 PM
Caiaphas <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote:

Episcopalian Bishop-elect V. Gene Robinson is an acknowledge homosexual and
professes to believe in Jesus Christ. In an attempt to understand how Bishop
Robinson and the Episcopalian Church justifies homosexuality, what
reasoning are they using?

The Old Testament has Scripture condemning homosexuality and I think it
was the Apostle Paul who condemned the practice also. But, did Christ
condemn this act? Is that the reasoning?

Thank you for posting.
Leviticus 18:22 condemns homosexuality. Given that Jesus upheld the
integrity of the Law in Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus indirectly condemned
homosexuality. But "complying" with OT Law is not necessarily what
people are probably thinking. Indeed, consider the following from
another post:
As I have mentioned before, homosexual advocates often try to water down
the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality by complaining that christians
don't comply with all the OT Laws anwyay. Homosexual advocates are
evidently trying to package compliance with OT Laws as an all or nothing
deal since complying with the Law would be difficult by today's
standards anyway. But not being true Bible students, homosexual
advocates overlook that God had planned for certain aspects of the Law
to "expire" with respect to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus
Christ while other aspects of the Law were to remain in effect.
For example, homosexuals complain that christians don't sacrifice
animals as the Law requires. But they ignore that Hebrews 10:1-23,
especially verses 17-18, tells us that animal sacrifices are no longer
required. Animal sacrifices are no longer required because God accepted
Jesus' sacrifice of himself as the ultimate atonement sacrifice for our
sins.
Homosexual advocates will also tell christians that we had better be
careful what we eat. But they again overlook the following verses which
tell us that Christians are not necessarily obligated to comply with OT
restrictions on food anymore.
Mark 7:1-23, especially verse 19 NIV
Acts 10:10-16
1 Corinthians 10:25-27 (but don't cause others to stumble)
But regardless that complying with certain aspects of OT Law are no
longer required, the NT shows examples which indicate that certain
aspects of OT Law are still very much in effect. 1 Corinthians 5, in
fact, is a good example which shows both sides of this issue.
On one hand, 1 Corinthians 5 shows that the forbidden sexual acts of
Leviticus 18:6-23 are still in effect as this chapter shows that a
Christian congregation is still to have zero tolerance for sexual
immorality. Homosexuals should note that although the example presented
in this chapter concerns a case of incest, both incest (Leviticus
18:7-8) and homosexuality (Leviticus 18:22) are indicated by these
Levitical verses. So 1 Corinthians 5 could just as well have
exemplified a homosexual as having been kicked out of this church.
But while 1 Corinthians 5 shows that a church is still to have zero
tolerance for sexual immorality it also shows that Christians are not
expected to put people to death as in OT times. Indeed, regardless that
Leviticus 20:11 shows that incest offenders were to be put to death, the
church was instructed to simply expel the man from the congregation.
So, did Paul screw up by not ordering for the man to be put no death?
Of course not. By writing to have the man expelled, Paul actually
upheld God's intent for the Law by having the church "purge the evil
from among them". "Purging the evil" was God's intent for the Law as
Deuteronomy 21:21 shows, for example.
Homosexuals should keep in mind, however, that the good news of the
gospel is not about how God despises homosexuality. 1 Corinthians
6:9-11, in fact, shows that certain members of that early church had
formerly been involved in same-sex sexual relationships but had been
cleansed in the name of Jesus.
Indeed, return to God, believing in his Son Jesus in faith, and have
eternal life.
M. Clark


How about some honest debate on this subject without insulting passions?

.


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