I have removed alt.atheism in the crossposts.

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F55394E.AADFB724@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

jabriol wrote:

All,

{another thread that really belongs to Talk.Origins,
but due the ongoing content moderation...well, I just
have to make due.. I wish to express my gratitude to
SAP moderator for allowing me to post from SAP as me
knew home group, at least until the T.O content
moderation ban is lifted}

That being, said let continue we read:

"'Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and
let a dividing occur between the waters and the
waters.' Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to
make a division between the waters that should be
beneath the expanse and the waters that should be
above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began
to call the expanse Heaven."-Genesis 1:6-8.

Some translations use the word "firmament" instead of
"expanse." From this the argument is made that the
Genesis account borrowed from creation myths that
represent this "firmament" as a metal dome. But even
the King James Version Bible, which uses "firmament,"
says in the margin, "expansion." This is because the
Hebrew word ra·qi´a', translated "expanse," means to
stretch out or spread out or expand.

===>That is an attempt to get away from the truth.
In fact the description fits perfectly with the verse from
Job: 'Clouds are a hiding place for Him, so that He cannot see;
And He walks on the vault of heaven.' Job 22:14

I am not totally sure what the purpose of the quotation of these scriptures
are supposed to mean as related to Jabriol's presentation, with which I am
in basic agreement.

But I will give some comments regarding these
scriptures.

You say, 'What does God know? Can he judge through the thick darkness? Thick
clouds are a covering to him, so that he doesn't see. He walks on the vault
of the sky.'

This is Eliphaz replying to Job. Eliphaz, of course, was one of Job's false
comforters, who was falsing accusing Job of hiding from God, claiming that
Job was saying that God cannot see through the clouds, etc. I see no
relation, however, to what Jabriol posted concerning the second creative
day.

Eliphaz would have it thought that Job was an Epicurean, who did indeed
believe in the existence of God, but denied his providence, and fancied that
he confined himself to the entertainments of the upper world and never
concerned himself in the inhabitants and affairs of this. However, even
Eliphaz did not believe this to be true, as can be seen by the rest of his
statements; thus this was but his false accusation toward Job, that Job was
committing such a grave sin by treating God as such.

Job's reply to Eliphaz was: "Oh that I knew where I might find him! That I
might come even to his seat!" (Job 23:3) And: "But he knows the way that I
take. When he has tried me, I shall come forth like gold." (Job 23:10)

However, the word translated "vault" is Strong's #2329, which simply means
circuit or circle.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02329
As such it simply seems to refer to the upper atmosphere of the earth.
Eliphaz' usage of this word, however, was to present a false idea of God,
which false idea he attributed to Job. Man, of course, is not hidden from
God behind some "vault" or covering.

One can just imagine YHWH's footsteps thundering through
the "vault of heaven".
ALSO SEE: Amos 9:6
"The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens
And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth"

It is he who builds his chambers in the heavens, and has founded his vault
on the earth; he who calls for the waters of the sea, and pours them out on
the surface of the earth; Yahweh is his name. -- World English Bible
translation.

The word translated "vault" is Strong's Hebrew #92, transliterated
"'aguddah"
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=092&version=kjv

It is one of those Hebrew words that carries various degrees of meaning, and
thus is often translated by different translators differently, depending
upon with variation of meaning they believe applies. The book of Amos is
highly figuratively, and we should look upon it in this manner. The prophecy
is not about literal "fire" (Amos 1:4,7,10,14; 2:2), a literal "bar" (Amos
1:5); literal "wine" (Amos 2:12), etc., nor should the statment concerning
God's building "chambers" and "vault" be taken literally.

If the expression "vaulted dome" should be used, as in the NAS, then it is
simply figurative of the bounded limits that is set upon the earth, or, it
could be referring metaphorically to the bondage of corruption -- the sinful
nature -- that God has put upon his human creation on earth. (Romans
1:26,28; 7:14; 8:3,15,21; Galatians 4:3; Hebrews 2:15) Or, "'aguddah" could
be translated either "binding" or "bands", relating to the limits of man on
the earth, or "troop" or "bundle", simply relating to the band or bundle of
sentient creatures on the earth.

So, indeed, the cosmology describes a VAULT/VAULTED DOME
i.e. a FIRMAMENT, to which the tiny lights (stars) are affixed,
and which is the "storehouse" of the "waters above".

Genesis 1:14 God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of sky to divide
the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for
days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of sky to give
light on the earth," and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights: the
greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He
also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of sky to give light to
the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the
light from the darkness. God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and
there was morning, a fourth day.

Of course, as I have stated in another thread, the "stars", and even "sun"
or "moon" referred to in the Bible do not necessarily correspond with modern
science's usage of the words star, sun and moon, and seldom does it actually
refer to the body of mass/energy itself, but rather simply to the light as
seen in the sky.

The Bible was not written for the purpose of demonstrating
modern scientific terminoloy nor satisfying scientific curiosity, and
matters are not stated as perhaps most scientists would like to have them
stated.

Genesis 1:8 -- God called the expanse sky. There was evening and there was
morning, a second day. -- World English Bible

The Bible says that God called the "firmament" -- the expanse -- "sky". The
expanse is the sky -- the atmosphere above us. It is in this sky -- as one
looks from the surface of the earth -- that the luminaries of the sun, moon,
and stars are seen. Thus in the fourth creative day, we could reason that
either the vaporous clouds above the firmament expanded enough so that the
sun, moon and stars could be seen in the expanse below the waters above. Or
we could reason that, if there was some other obstruction outside the
vaporous clouds above the firmament, that it was somehow removed so that the
sun, moon and stars could be seen in the expanse below the "waters above."

The dome has openings ("windows") through which YHWH lets down
some water occasionally, or lots of water when he wants to drown
all living creatures.
Genesis 7:11-12
...the windows of heaven were opened.

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the
seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great
deep were burst open, and the sky's windows [sluice] were opened. The rain
was on the earth forty days and forty nights. -- Genesis 7:11,12, World
English Bible

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, in the
seventeenth day of the month, in this day have been broken up all fountains
of the great deep, and the net-work of the heavens hath been opened, and the
shower is on the earth forty days and forty nights. -- Young's Literal
Translation

When Noah was 600 years old, on the seventeenth day of the second month, the
underground waters burst forth on the earth, and the rain fell in mighty
torrents from the sky. The rain continued to fall for forty days and forty
nights. -- New Living Translation

Of course, in Genesis God did open the "sluice" (Strong's #699*) of the
skys, the clouded circle, or canopy, that circled the earth. I do not see
this opening of "windows" -- the sluice -- as supposed openings in a
supposed dome through which God caused it to rain, but rather as the opening
of "a body of water pent up behind a floodgate." (Merriam-Webster
Dictionary**, under "sluice".) This would be the "waters above" that is
spoken of in the creative account.

==========
* http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0699
** http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Agape love,
Ronald
http://reslight.addr.com/l-evolution.html