| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
" Tom P" |
| Date: |
09 Nov 2006 11:16:35 AM |
| Object: |
Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise;
they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine." (Certain of our
atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for Tom Paine could
learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect,
to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable
man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most benevolent
kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been preached by
Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before, by the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by
any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which was
the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly within
the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and the
equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of
the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of
the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full text at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous printed
editions.
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
16 Nov 2006 09:01:54 PM |
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"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:4rt4ntFsoaboU1@mid.individual.net...
After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 12 November 2006 6:43 pm
=> Vox Populi perhaps from wrote:
GEORGE WASHINGTON: Treaty of Tripoli 1796: The government of the
United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
And don't forget, ratified by the entire Congress of the United States.
Actually, dear readers, my advice is to forget what Stec said immediately
because Stec is factually incorrect, as usual.
Geez, Stec, can't you get anything right? The "entire Congress of the
United States" does not vote on the ratification of treaties. As any 8th
grader should know, only the Senate votes to ratify treaties with foreign
powers. Read the Constitution of the United States of America, Article II,
Section 2, paragraph 2.
Your nincompoopery is apparently boundless, Stec.
When are you going to refute the explicit statements by the physicists who
actually conducted the radiocarbon dating analyses of the DJD scrolls you
introduced in June? We are still waiting, Stec.
And we will likely continue to wait, won't we Stec? Because you put both
feet in your mouth on that one.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
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| User: "Cazador" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
16 Nov 2006 10:09:21 PM |
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Tom P wrote:
"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:4rt4ntFsoaboU1@mid.individual.net...
After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 12 November 2006 6:43 pm
=> Vox Populi perhaps from wrote:
GEORGE WASHINGTON: Treaty of Tripoli 1796: The government of the
United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
And don't forget, ratified by the entire Congress of the United States.
Actually, dear readers, my advice is to forget what Stec said immediately
because Stec is factually incorrect, as usual.
Geez, Stec, can't you get anything right? The "entire Congress of the
United States" does not vote on the ratification of treaties. As any 8th
grader should know, only the Senate votes to ratify treaties with foreign
powers. Read the Constitution of the United States of America, Article II,
Section 2, paragraph 2.
Your nincompoopery is apparently boundless, Stec.
Tom, you've been "caught out" as our Brit friends might say.
Nincompoopery is incapable of being boundless as by your own account it
is a sub-set of jackassery.
When are you going to refute the explicit statements by the physicists who
actually conducted the radiocarbon dating analyses of the DJD scrolls you
introduced in June? We are still waiting, Stec.
You ask too much. You're dealing with simpletons.
And we will likely continue to wait, won't we Stec? Because you put both
feet in your mouth on that one.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
17 Nov 2006 01:40:05 PM |
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"Cazador" <coaster132000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163736561.498555.219820@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Tom P wrote:
"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:4rt4ntFsoaboU1@mid.individual.net...
After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 12 November 2006 6:43
pm
=> Vox Populi perhaps from wrote:
GEORGE WASHINGTON: Treaty of Tripoli 1796: The government of the
United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
And don't forget, ratified by the entire Congress of the United States.
Actually, dear readers, my advice is to forget what Stec said immediately
because Stec is factually incorrect, as usual.
Geez, Stec, can't you get anything right? The "entire Congress of the
United States" does not vote on the ratification of treaties. As any 8th
grader should know, only the Senate votes to ratify treaties with foreign
powers. Read the Constitution of the United States of America, Article
II,
Section 2, paragraph 2.
Your nincompoopery is apparently boundless, Stec.
Tom, you've been "caught out" as our Brit friends might say.
Nincompoopery is incapable of being boundless as by your own account it
is a sub-set of jackassery.
When are you going to refute the explicit statements by the physicists
who
actually conducted the radiocarbon dating analyses of the DJD scrolls you
introduced in June? We are still waiting, Stec.
You ask too much. You're dealing with simpletons.
Or just someone who is prone to post in anger without thinking or checking
his sources first. I mean, how hard would it have been to look up the
ratification of treaties in the U.S. Constitution?
And we will likely continue to wait, won't we Stec? Because you put both
feet in your mouth on that one.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
17 Nov 2006 12:46:11 AM |
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On 16 Nov 2006 20:09:21 -0800, "Cazador" <coaster132000@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1163736561.498555.219820@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
Tom P wrote:
"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:4rt4ntFsoaboU1@mid.individual.net...
After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 12 November 2006 6:43 pm
=> Vox Populi perhaps from wrote:
GEORGE WASHINGTON: Treaty of Tripoli 1796: The government of the
United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
And don't forget, ratified by the entire Congress of the United States.
Actually, dear readers, my advice is to forget what Stec said immediately
because Stec is factually incorrect, as usual.
Geez, Stec, can't you get anything right? The "entire Congress of the
United States" does not vote on the ratification of treaties. As any 8th
grader should know, only the Senate votes to ratify treaties with foreign
powers. Read the Constitution of the United States of America, Article II,
Section 2, paragraph 2.
Your nincompoopery is apparently boundless, Stec.
Tom, you've been "caught out" as our Brit friends might say.
Nincompoopery is incapable of being boundless as by your own account it
is a sub-set of jackassery.
When are you going to refute the explicit statements by the physicists who
actually conducted the radiocarbon dating analyses of the DJD scrolls you
introduced in June? We are still waiting, Stec.
You ask too much. You're dealing with simpletons.
Mr. Stec a "simpleton"?????!!!
Are you talking about the same person?
And we will likely continue to wait, won't we Stec? Because you put both
feet in your mouth on that one.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
--
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| User: "Cazador" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
17 Nov 2006 09:02:55 AM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On 16 Nov 2006 20:09:21 -0800, "Cazador" <coaster132000@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1163736561.498555.219820@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
Tom P wrote:
"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:4rt4ntFsoaboU1@mid.individual.net...
After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 12 November 2006 6:43 pm
=> Vox Populi perhaps from wrote:
GEORGE WASHINGTON: Treaty of Tripoli 1796: The government of the
United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
And don't forget, ratified by the entire Congress of the United States.
Actually, dear readers, my advice is to forget what Stec said immediately
because Stec is factually incorrect, as usual.
Geez, Stec, can't you get anything right? The "entire Congress of the
United States" does not vote on the ratification of treaties. As any 8th
grader should know, only the Senate votes to ratify treaties with foreign
powers. Read the Constitution of the United States of America, Article II,
Section 2, paragraph 2.
Your nincompoopery is apparently boundless, Stec.
Tom, you've been "caught out" as our Brit friends might say.
Nincompoopery is incapable of being boundless as by your own account it
is a sub-set of jackassery.
When are you going to refute the explicit statements by the physicists who
actually conducted the radiocarbon dating analyses of the DJD scrolls you
introduced in June? We are still waiting, Stec.
You ask too much. You're dealing with simpletons.
Mr. Stec a "simpleton"?????!!!
Are you talking about the same person?
And we will likely continue to wait, won't we Stec? Because you put both
feet in your mouth on that one.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Probably not. Apologies, Stec.
--
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 07:40:29 PM |
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On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 15:58:52 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:mdv9l2po0o3j7vqtk2t3nl9gdvcd8v9sfb@4ax.com...
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:15:52 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"cactus" <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote in message
news:Kt35h.11889$B31.7321@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
If it is, congratulations! You have that part right. But that does not
mean the "Founding Fathers' had not internalized the moral precepts taught
by Jesus Christ and consciously consulted those precepts when they
formulated the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
That they accepted as true principles that the Bible has Jesus as
accepting as true doesn't mean that they took those principles as
Christian principles.
So you don't think that the "Founding Father's" believed that Jesus taught
Christian principles?
Read what I wrote again.
That they accepted that you shouldn't do to anyone what you didn't
want him to do to you isn't the same as "they accepted Christian
principles". Again, correlation isn't causation.
Show where they accepted that Jesus is the sole path to heaven.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example
of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved --
the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
- John Adams
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
10 Nov 2006 11:18:01 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:15:52 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"cactus" <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote in message
news:Kt35h.11889$B31.7321@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
If it is, congratulations! You have that part right. But that does not
mean the "Founding Fathers' had not internalized the moral precepts taught
by Jesus Christ and consciously consulted those precepts when they
formulated the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
That they accepted as true principles that the Bible has Jesus as
accepting as true doesn't mean that they took those principles as
Christian principles.
Atheists accept that murder is wrong, but NOT because the Bible says
so.
All religions are based on the average man's need to live a secure life, free from
attack, free from losing his property and free to bring up his children.
From this underlying human need sprung a myriad of primitive beliefs, all of which
were put there for just that purpose.
The imaginary gods of these religions are supposed to provide the 'power' to make
these things happen.
It is, of course, totally outdated and primitive.
Bob
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"For aught we know a priori, matter may contain the source, or spring, of order
originating within itself, as well as the mind does."
- David Hume, Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 05:09:43 PM |
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On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but
moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both philosophically and theologically
false, and at the least an error of faith."
- Catholic Church's decision against Galileo Galilei
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 06:46:34 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no more; and
I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
That is a Judeo-Christian concept that Paine shared with Christians. Those
are three central tenets of Christianity, and are included in both the
Apostle's and Nicene Creeds, and Paine explicitly declares that he agrees
with them. How is that not expressing sympathy to Christianity?
Paine also wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "Nothing that is here said can
apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of Jesus
Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man. The morality that he
preached and practiced was of the most benevolent kind; and thought similar
systems of morality had been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek
philosophers, many years before, by the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by
any."
In those lines Paine called the "morality . . . preached and practised" by
Jesus as "the most benevolent kind" and that "it has not been exceeded by
any." Do you consider that utterance of Paine to be unsympathetic to
Christianity when he calls Jesus the greatest moral teacher of all time? Or
do you argue that Jesus Christ was not Christian based upon some loony
conspiracy theory that Paul made the whole thing up like the nincompoop
Libertarius seems to believe?
Paine went on to write in "The Age of Reason:" ""That such a person as
Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which was the mode of execution at
that day, are historical relations strictly within the limits of
probability. He preached most excellent morality and the equality of man;
but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of the Jewish
priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of
the whole order of priesthood."
There Paine declared that Jesus existed and was crucified. Those two are
also vital elements of Christianity. Or do you think Paine was not
expressing sympathy with Christianity when he declared the probable truth of
two elements in both the Nicene and Apostle's Creed?
You still haven't answered my original question. I repeat it. So how does
anything Tom Paine [wrote] indicate any sympathy with atheism?
Or was Tom Paine another of the "Founding Fathers" who found atheists and
atheism contemptible? Much as Jefferson and John Adams did.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor
immovable, but
moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both philosophically and
theologically
false, and at the least an error of faith."
- Catholic Church's decision against Galileo Galilei
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 07:19:28 PM |
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" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:4553c56f$0$14809$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no more;
and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
That is a Judeo-Christian concept that Paine shared with Christians.
Moslems also say they only have one god. In actual fact the monotheism
claim of both Islam and christianity is a sham. Moslems believe in Allah,
Satan and various angels and djinn, Christians much the same but split
their main god in three and add the godess Mary for some.
Those are three central tenets of Christianity, and are included in both
the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds, and Paine explicitly declares that he
agrees with them. How is that not expressing sympathy to Christianity?
Could it be the things he wrote directly criticizing christianity and its'
holy book. Nah it couldn't be that surely.
Paine also wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "Nothing that is here said can
apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of
Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man.
Assuming that the guy existed, that may be so but that doesn't appear to
have much if anything to do with Christianity.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 04:41:22 PM |
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"Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns987791B791F40Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:4553c56f$0$14809$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no more;
and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
That is a Judeo-Christian concept that Paine shared with Christians.
Moslems also say they only have one god. In actual fact the monotheism
claim of both Islam and christianity is a sham. Moslems believe in Allah,
Satan and various angels and djinn, Christians much the same but split
their main god in three and add the godess Mary for some.
But Paine was raised as a Quaker. Now that you know that fact, would you
like to withdraw your silliness about Islam? Where did Tom Paine himself
say he obtained his knowledge of Christianity and God?
Those are three central tenets of Christianity, and are included in both
the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds, and Paine explicitly declares that he
agrees with them. How is that not expressing sympathy to Christianity?
Could it be the things he wrote directly criticizing christianity and its'
holy book. Nah it couldn't be that surely.
Lots of Christians then, including Jefferson, Madison, and Adams, professed
to be Christians yet launched savage attacks on Christians and the historic
abuses of Christianity. They called themselves Christians in the same texts
in which they launched these attacks. See for example, Thomas Jefferson's
letter to Benjamin Rush dated April 21, 1803. and John Adams' letters to
Jefferson of September 14th, 1813 and November 4th, 1816.
Paine also wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "Nothing that is here said can
apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of
Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man.
Assuming that the guy existed,
That is not relevant. You and certain of your atheist fellow travelers are
trying to deflect the discussion concerning what the "Founding Fathers" of
the American republic believed into a discussion of the truth or falsehood
of certain incidents recounted in the Bible, or as you attempted here, the
historicity of Jesus. It hardly matters. It doesn't matter at all what you
think about the historicity of Jesus. It is the beliefs as expressed by the
"Founding Fathers" in their own writings and acted upon that are at issue,
and not the degree of historical probability that such events actually
occurred as reported in the Bible. Fortunately, there is a great deal of
reliable documentary evidence has survived and many volumes have been
published.
that may be so but that doesn't appear to
have much if anything to do with Christianity.
So Jesus had nothing to do with Christianity? Is that the point you are
trying to make? Never mind, it is irrelevant anyway.
Your point in particular and your opinion generally is hardly relevant to
Tom Paine's faith. Tom Paine believed Jesus existed, said certain words,
did certain acts, and was crucified. Tom Paine wrote that. Your agreement
or approval is meaningless in that context.
The discussion here is the evidence concerning the Christian influences
expressed by the "Founding Fathers" of the American republic in the form of
written testimony by the participants in the foundation of the American
republic. Try to stick to the topic, can you?
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 05:32:15 PM |
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" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:45579c86$0$14820$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
"Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns987791B791F40Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:4553c56f$0$14809$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no
more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
That is a Judeo-Christian concept that Paine shared with Christians.
Moslems also say they only have one god. In actual fact the monotheism
claim of both Islam and christianity is a sham. Moslems believe in
Allah, Satan and various angels and djinn, Christians much the same but
split their main god in three and add the godess Mary for some.
But Paine was raised as a Quaker.
Sure and Joe Stalin was raised as an orthodox christian. He even trained to
be a priest. It doesn't mean that in the end that Stalin was sympathetic to
christianity.
Now that you know that fact, would
you like to withdraw your silliness about Islam? Where did Tom Paine
himself say he obtained his knowledge of Christianity and God?
Which part of Islam claims to be a monotheistic religion did you fail to
understand. Your claim was that monotheism is a christian concept. I
pointed out that your assertion was false, get it. Do try and address to
point next time.
Those are three central tenets of Christianity, and are included in
both the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds, and Paine explicitly declares
that he agrees with them. How is that not expressing sympathy to
Christianity?
Could it be the things he wrote directly criticizing christianity and
its' holy book. Nah it couldn't be that surely.
Lots of Christians then, including Jefferson, Madison, and Adams,
professed to be Christians yet launched savage attacks on Christians and
the historic abuses of Christianity. They called themselves Christians
in the same texts in which they launched these attacks. See for
example, Thomas Jefferson's letter to Benjamin Rush dated April 21,
1803. and John Adams' letters to Jefferson of September 14th, 1813 and
November 4th, 1816.
Well thanks for supporting my case.
Paine also wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "Nothing that is here said
can apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real
character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man.
Assuming that the guy existed,
That is not relevant.
Sure it is.
You and certain of your atheist fellow travelers
are trying to deflect the discussion concerning what the "Founding
Fathers" of the American republic believed into a discussion of the
truth or falsehood of certain incidents recounted in the Bible, or as
you attempted here, the historicity of Jesus. It hardly matters. It
doesn't matter at all what you think about the historicity of Jesus. It
is the beliefs as expressed by the "Founding Fathers" in their own
writings and acted upon that are at issue, and not the degree of
historical probability that such events actually occurred as reported in
the Bible. Fortunately, there is a great deal of reliable documentary
evidence has survived and many volumes have been published.
that may be so but that doesn't appear to
have much if anything to do with Christianity.
So Jesus had nothing to do with Christianity? Is that the point you are
trying to make? Never mind, it is irrelevant anyway.
Of course is is. The Christian religion as we have it is due to the
practicioners of that religion not some semi mythical founder.
Your point in particular and your opinion generally is hardly relevant
to Tom Paine's faith. Tom Paine believed Jesus existed, said certain
words, did certain acts, and was crucified. Tom Paine wrote that. Your
agreement or approval is meaningless in that context.
Tom Paine made it clear that he was a deist. Your attempts at trying to
weasel out of this does you no credit.
The discussion here is the evidence concerning the Christian influences
expressed by the "Founding Fathers" of the American republic in the form
of written testimony by the participants in the foundation of the
American republic. Try to stick to the topic, can you?
Pot calling the kettle black.
Klazmon.
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
17 Nov 2006 04:14:53 PM |
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"Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns987A7F89A7A88Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:45579c86$0$14820$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
"Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns987791B791F40Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:4553c56f$0$14809$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no
more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
That is a Judeo-Christian concept that Paine shared with Christians.
Moslems also say they only have one god. In actual fact the monotheism
claim of both Islam and christianity is a sham. Moslems believe in
Allah, Satan and various angels and djinn, Christians much the same but
split their main god in three and add the godess Mary for some.
But Paine was raised as a Quaker.
Sure and Joe Stalin was raised as an orthodox christian. He even trained
to
be a priest. It doesn't mean that in the end that Stalin was sympathetic
to
christianity.
Stalin disavowed Christianity. In fact, Stalin avowed he was an atheist and
actively persecuted Christians, especially certain sects.
"Seminary" in the context used in 19th century education in Georgia does not
have the same meaning as it does now. There was no system of public
secondary education in the nether regions of the Tsarist empire when Stalin
was young, so it was the "seminary" or nothing. Why not do just a little
research before you post?
Paine was unquestionably raised a Quaker. We have his own word for it.
What do you think happened? Was Paine kidnapped by Moslems and
indoctrinated with the monotheism of Islam?
Was Paine's memory of the God of Quakerism erased by evil companions and
Paine later found a need to formulate notions of a creator God who granted
life after death, so he concocted the monotheistic deity he revered later in
his life which purely coincidentally happened to share a series of vital
attributes wit the Quaker's God?
Your notion that Tom Paine received his construct of God from any but
Christian sources does not bear examination. Your oddball notion flies in
the face of all the known evidence, including Paine's own testimony.
Now that you know that fact, would
you like to withdraw your silliness about Islam? Where did Tom Paine
himself say he obtained his knowledge of Christianity and God?
Which part of Islam claims to be a monotheistic religion did you fail to
understand. Your claim was that monotheism is a christian concept.
Which came first, Christian monotheism or Muslim monotheism?
Was the founder of Islam aware of Christian monotheism?
How influential was Islam in 18th century England or English North America?
I pointed out that your assertion was false, get it.
You were mistaken. As you generally are.
Do try and address to
point next time.
Tom Paine was not reared in or influenced by Islamic monotheism. Neither
was Adams, Jefferson, Washington, Paine, Madison, or any other of the
"Founding Fathers." Tom Paine explicitly stated he was raised in a Quaker
household. For your lunatic theory to work, you must somehow demonstrate
that in the Quaker household and this English school Paine attended taught
Islam. Good luck with that.
In "The Age of Reason," Paine traces the evolution of his religious beliefs.
Go read it and tell me on which page you find Paine ascribing his monotheism
to Islam. Good luck with that too.
Those are three central tenets of Christianity, and are included in
both the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds, and Paine explicitly declares
that he agrees with them. How is that not expressing sympathy to
Christianity?
Could it be the things he wrote directly criticizing christianity and
its' holy book. Nah it couldn't be that surely.
Lots of Christians then, including Jefferson, Madison, and Adams,
professed to be Christians yet launched savage attacks on Christians and
the historic abuses of Christianity. They called themselves Christians
in the same texts in which they launched these attacks. See for
example, Thomas Jefferson's letter to Benjamin Rush dated April 21,
1803. and John Adams' letters to Jefferson of September 14th, 1813 and
November 4th, 1816.
Well thanks for supporting my case.
No, actually, Jefferson and Adams words avowing that they were Christians
demolishes your case because both launched repeated and lively attacks on
Christianity and the bible, but both explicitly stated they were Christian
by their own lights. Read their letters and other writings. Not the
collections of quotations at atheist web pages. Those only represent a tiny
portion of the story.
Merely criticizing the bible and Christianity is not evidence of
anti-Christianity. John Dominic Crossan and John Shelby Spong are two
devoted Christian theologians alive today whose criticism of both
Christianity and the bible have been scathing. Both have explicitly and
repeatedly stated their devotion to Christian faith.
Paine also wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "Nothing that is here said
can apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real
character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man.
Assuming that the guy existed,
That is not relevant.
Sure it is.
It is relevant because Paine shows an obvious familiarity with the life of
Jesus and the bible as the source of that information. Paine was reared a
Christian, thus his earliest conceptualization of God and monotheism were
Christian, specifically Quaker.
You and certain of your atheist fellow travelers
are trying to deflect the discussion concerning what the "Founding
Fathers" of the American republic believed into a discussion of the
truth or falsehood of certain incidents recounted in the Bible, or as
you attempted here, the historicity of Jesus. It hardly matters. It
doesn't matter at all what you think about the historicity of Jesus. It
is the beliefs as expressed by the "Founding Fathers" in their own
writings and acted upon that are at issue, and not the degree of
historical probability that such events actually occurred as reported in
the Bible. Fortunately, there is a great deal of reliable documentary
evidence has survived and many volumes have been published.
that may be so but that doesn't appear to
have much if anything to do with Christianity.
So Jesus had nothing to do with Christianity? Is that the point you are
trying to make? Never mind, it is irrelevant anyway.
Of course is is. The Christian religion as we have it is due to the
practicioners of that religion not some semi mythical founder.
Is that your learned opinion? How charming. But your generalizations
concerning the foundations of Christianity are totally irrelevant to this
discussion. The only opinions that count are those expressed by the
"Founding Fathers." And you haven't done very well producing any of those
to support your argument.
Your point in particular and your opinion generally is hardly relevant
to Tom Paine's faith. Tom Paine believed Jesus existed, said certain
words, did certain acts, and was crucified. Tom Paine wrote that. Your
agreement or approval is meaningless in that context.
Tom Paine made it clear that he was a deist.
How is your comment a refutation of: "Tom Paine believed Jesus existed,
said certain words, did certain acts, and was crucified. Tom Paine wrote
that"?
Are Deists forbidden to believe such things about Jesus?
Tom Paine called himself a Deist and he wrote that he believed all of those
and more about Jesus Christ. So you need to decide what you mean here,
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th.
Your attempts at trying to
weasel out of this does you no credit.
I have never claimed Tom Paine was not a Deist. (Note the capital "D." It
had significance in the 18th century and still does. You should learn what
that significance is.) My claim is that Paine became a Deist from the
branch of Dissenting Christian Sects known as Quakers, and Paine took
certain theological concepts from the Christian Quakers to Paine's
formulation of Deism. That is clear from Paine's own words.
The discussion here is the evidence concerning the Christian influences
expressed by the "Founding Fathers" of the American republic in the form
of written testimony by the participants in the foundation of the
American republic. Try to stick to the topic, can you?
Pot calling the kettle black.
OK, the subject of this thread is Tom Paine's writings on religious faith
and Jesus Christ. I produced an assortment of extracts from Tom Paine's
"The Age of Reason" which clearly indicate that Paine believed in God and he
admired the teachings and practices of Jesus Christ. Nothing you have
posted has disproved the truth of any of that. Can you offer proof for your
screwball notion that Paine was somehow influenced by the monotheism of
Islam in his Quaker home or English school? You haven't yet. Do you wish
to put up or shut up at this point?
Klazmon.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 07:49:03 PM |
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On 13 Nov 2006 12:32:15 +1300, Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
<Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:45579c86$0$14820$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
But Paine was raised as a Quaker.
Sure and Joe Stalin was raised as an orthodox christian. He even trained to
be a priest. It doesn't mean that in the end that Stalin was sympathetic to
christianity.
Christians claim that he was NEVER a Christian. If that's true it
could be just as true for Paine.
Now that you know that fact, would
you like to withdraw your silliness about Islam? Where did Tom Paine
himself say he obtained his knowledge of Christianity and God?
Which part of Islam claims to be a monotheistic religion did you fail to
understand. Your claim was that monotheism is a christian concept. I
pointed out that your assertion was false
Wrong direction, though. Christianity stole monotheism from Judaism
so it would appear that the Constitution was written from Judaic
principles.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand
why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
17 Nov 2006 04:20:37 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:3jjfl2lnad04qrg623kego235ajlkpf58g@4ax.com...
On 13 Nov 2006 12:32:15 +1300, Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
<Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:45579c86$0$14820$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
But Paine was raised as a Quaker.
Sure and Joe Stalin was raised as an orthodox christian. He even trained
to
be a priest. It doesn't mean that in the end that Stalin was sympathetic
to
christianity.
Christians claim that he was NEVER a Christian. If that's true it
could be just as true for Paine.
Tom Paine explicitly stated that he was raised in a Quaker household. Are
Quakers not Christian?
Now that you know that fact, would
you like to withdraw your silliness about Islam? Where did Tom Paine
himself say he obtained his knowledge of Christianity and God?
Which part of Islam claims to be a monotheistic religion did you fail to
understand. Your claim was that monotheism is a christian concept. I
pointed out that your assertion was false
Wrong direction, though. Christianity stole monotheism from Judaism
so it would appear that the Constitution was written from Judaic
principles.
The monotheism of 18th century England and English North America was not the
monotheism of Islam. Obviously, the monotheism of 18th century England and
English North America was Christian. There are piles of documents attesting
to Christian monotheism in England and English North America in the 18th
century. Can you produce even a single document attesting to Islamic
monotheism in 18th century England and English North America?
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will
understand
why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 07:46:01 PM |
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On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:41:22 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns987791B791F40Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:4553c56f$0$14809$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no more;
and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
That is a Judeo-Christian concept that Paine shared with Christians.
Moslems also say they only have one god. In actual fact the monotheism
claim of both Islam and christianity is a sham. Moslems believe in Allah,
Satan and various angels and djinn, Christians much the same but split
their main god in three and add the godess Mary for some.
But Paine was raised as a Quaker.
Almost every atheist reading in alt.atheism was raised one form of
Christian or other. People grow up.
The discussion here is the evidence concerning the Christian influences
expressed by the "Founding Fathers" of the American republic in the form of
written testimony by the participants in the foundation of the American
republic.
And you nave yet to show a statement by them regarding the Christian
influence on a single sentence in the Constitution, not a single
sentence that could have come from nowhere but Christianity.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Christianity has already had the chance to govern
the world according to its own ethical standards.
It was called the "Dark Ages".
- Bill, The Avender
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
17 Nov 2006 07:29:43 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:0bjfl2lhp4quoo1qhhk9j21vqg3mcjv0v6@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:41:22 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns987791B791F40Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:4553c56f$0$14809$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no
more;
and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
That is a Judeo-Christian concept that Paine shared with Christians.
Moslems also say they only have one god. In actual fact the monotheism
claim of both Islam and christianity is a sham. Moslems believe in
Allah,
Satan and various angels and djinn, Christians much the same but split
their main god in three and add the godess Mary for some.
But Paine was raised as a Quaker.
Almost every atheist reading in alt.atheism was raised one form of
Christian or other. People grow up.
But the Christian Quaker monotheism Paine was reared in was not from Islam.
The discussion here is the evidence concerning the Christian influences
expressed by the "Founding Fathers" of the American republic in the form
of
written testimony by the participants in the foundation of the American
republic.
And you nave yet to show a statement by them regarding the Christian
influence on a single sentence in the Constitution,
The entire systems of "checks and balances" and balance of interests
Madison (and others) discussed at great length is based in the Christian
doctrine of the depravity of mankind, which was in direct opposition to
Enlightenment notions of the nobility of humankind. The broad historical
sequence runs from the Old Testament to the Pauline and pseudo-Pauline
epistles, to Augustine especially in "The City of God," to Calvin's
"Institutes of the Christian Religion" and certain of Luther's writings on
salvation through faith alone, to Edwards' sermon "Sinners in the Hands of
an Angry God" and "Freedom of the Will" to the principles of government
enumerated by John Adams and James Madison between 1786 and 1790. If you
haven't read these, all of them, you will not be able to recognize the
Christian doctrine of the depravity of humankind and grasp the significance
of the Christian influences in the Constitution of the United States as
illuminated in Federalist X and other polemics of the time. What do you
think caused the perceived need for checks and balances and a balance of
interests perceived by the "Founding Fathers"?
Are you familiar with that doctrine? I can provide more specific references
within those works if you are interested. Or you could read Max Weber's "The
Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism;" Richard Brown's
"Modernization;" Sacvan Bercovitch's "The Puritan Ethic and the American
Self;" Bernard Bailyn's "The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution"
and "Faces of Revolution;" Samuel E. Morrison's "Sources and Documents of
the American Revolution;" Gordon Wood's "The Creation of the American
Republic" and "The Radicalism of the American Revolution;" Joyce Appleby's
"Capitalism and a New Social Order;" Jack Greene's "The American
Revolution" and the volumes containing reprints of the pamphlets, newspaper
articles, broadsides, sermons, and books of the period.
not a single
sentence that could have come from nowhere but Christianity.
You miss the point. The objective of history is to determine what did
happen. The purpose and objective of intellectual history is to identify
the source of ideas and trace their transmission. The objective here is not
to prove the ideas "that could have come from nowhere but Christianity," but
to reconstruct where the ideas actually did come from. And all of the
evidence indicates that Islamic notions of monotheism had no influence on
the English colonies in North America. All of the evidence indicates that
Christianity, especially the Puritan variety of Christianity, was one
cluster of ideas among four clusters of ideas, the others being the
Enlightenment ideals of natural rights and the nobility of humankind,
Classical ideals of the good life and virtue, and the ideals of English
liberty as expressed in the English Common Law. This is very obvious once
one takes the time to read through the primary and secondary sources, but it
is a rough go because nothing is simple and tracing the relationships if the
ideas demands the utmost attention to detail.
I am not proposing that the United States was "founded on Christian
principles" or "was founded as a Christian nation" in the sense that
fundamentalists imply or explicate. But I do insist that Christianity was a
set of contributing factors to the American Revolution and the Constitution
that cannot be removed. If one removes Christian influences from the mix of
contributing factors, something else happens. And what that something else
might have been is rank speculation because it can never be known. For one
small example of religious influences, the Committees of Correspondence that
relayed news throughout the colonies during the various crises between 1763
and 1783 were mostly the correspondent networks established during the first
Great Awakening to pass the news of sermons and religious news from after
1735.
You do know what I refer to when I use the term "first Great Awakening,"
don't you?
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Christianity has already had the chance to govern
the world according to its own ethical standards.
It was called the "Dark Ages".
- Bill, The Avender
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
Whoever dreams up this stuff for your sig changer ought to research their
facts. The "Dark Ages" only occurred in certain parts of Western Europe.
The Byzantine empire, the Arab World, Persia, India, and China thrived from
the 6th through the 10th centuries and were totally unaffected by the
continual internal warfare and foreign invasions that characterized the"Dark
Ages." And in no sense did Christianity "govern the world." That notion is
pure unadulterated nincompoopery. And you might recall that the Byzantine
empire was Christian and for it time was an advanced culture, arguably the
most advanced culture anywhere. For pity sake, read a book, or maybe even
two or three. Before you post even more factually flawed nincompoopery.
Let me guess, "Bill, The Avender" is an atheist, right? He should read some
books too. And before he makes a rare ***** of himself again by publicly
proclaiming such arrogance and profound ignorance of world history.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 10:22:05 PM |
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Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th wrote:
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:4553c56f$0$14809$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no more;
and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
That is a Judeo-Christian concept that Paine shared with Christians.
Moslems also say they only have one god. In actual fact the monotheism
claim of both Islam and christianity is a sham. Moslems believe in Allah,
Satan and various angels and djinn, Christians much the same but split
their main god in three and add the godess Mary for some.
And when Muslims get their nuclear bomb it will be 'the will of Allah" to use
it on infidels,
so roughly a third of civilisation as we know it will perish
in the 'First World Nuclear Religious War'
a war that will be faught between the owners of two imaginary gods.
And they wonder why there are atheists
Those are three central tenets of Christianity, and are included in both
the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds, and Paine explicitly declares that he
agrees with them. How is that not expressing sympathy to Christianity?
Could it be the things he wrote directly criticizing christianity and its'
holy book. Nah it couldn't be that surely.
Paine also wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "Nothing that is here said can
apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of
Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man.
Assuming that the guy existed, that may be so but that doesn't appear to
have much if anything to do with Christianity.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
17 Nov 2006 07:30:47 PM |
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"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:4557F2A0.4E278BBA@netvigator.com...
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th wrote:
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:4553c56f$0$14809$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no
more;
and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
That is a Judeo-Christian concept that Paine shared with Christians.
Moslems also say they only have one god. In actual fact the monotheism
claim of both Islam and christianity is a sham. Moslems believe in Allah,
Satan and various angels and djinn, Christians much the same but split
their main god in three and add the godess Mary for some.
And when Muslims get their nuclear bomb it will be 'the will of Allah" to
use
it on infidels,
so roughly a third of civilisation as we know it will perish
in the 'First World Nuclear Religious War'
a war that will be faught between the owners of two imaginary gods.
And they wonder why there are atheists
Actually, I don't wonder why there are atheists.
Those are three central tenets of Christianity, and are included in
both
the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds, and Paine explicitly declares that he
agrees with them. How is that not expressing sympathy to Christianity?
Could it be the things he wrote directly criticizing christianity and
its'
holy book. Nah it couldn't be that surely.
Paine also wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "Nothing that is here said
can
apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of
Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man.
Assuming that the guy existed, that may be so but that doesn't appear to
have much if anything to do with Christianity.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 06:55:11 PM |
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On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:46:34 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no more; and
I hope for happiness beyond this life."
Monotheism, not Christianity.
Paine also wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "Nothing that is here said can
apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of Jesus
Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man. The morality that he
preached and practiced was of the most benevolent kind; and thought similar
systems of morality had been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek
philosophers, many years before, by the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by
any."
In those lines Paine called the "morality . . . preached and practised" by
Jesus as "the most benevolent kind" and that "it has not been exceeded by
any."
You left out "and thought similar systems of morality had been
preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many
years before, by the Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages"
Do you consider that utterance of Paine to be unsympathetic to
Christianity
He recognizes that the Bible has some good morality - morality that
was common to the Bible, Confucius, some Greek philosophers and good
men in all ages. Nothing special about Jesus - he was one of many.
when he calls Jesus the greatest moral teacher of all time?
That's your interpretation - Paine never said that. He said that no
one exceeded Jesus, but that others practiced similar morality.
There's a difference between Paine's "never exceeded" and your "never
got up to".
Paine went on to write in "The Age of Reason:" ""That such a person as
Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which was the mode of execution at
that day, are historical relations strictly within the limits of
probability. He preached most excellent morality and the equality of man;
but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of the Jewish
priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of
the whole order of priesthood."
There Paine declared that Jesus existed and was crucified.
But not resurrected - the very basis of Christianity.
You still haven't answered my original question. I repeat it. So how does
anything Tom Paine [wrote] indicate any sympathy with atheism?
I never claimed it did. You claimed that he indicated sympathy with
Christianity. You still haven't shown that he was different from any
other Deist. (And Deism is not a form of Christianity, as some
Christians like to think.)
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence.
- (Will Rogers)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 02:54:01 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:e2j7l2hceg6qs2uqvkb1vfupm573ra9g6c@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:46:34 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no more;
and
I hope for happiness beyond this life."
Monotheism, not Christianity.
Is that right? What was late 18th century monotheism descended from?
Judaism? Christianity? Islam? Some other creed? Which of those do you
think Paine received his monotheism from? Better yet, why don't you tell us
what Paine had to say concerning his beliefs and his monotheism? After all,
Paine did tell anyone who will bother to read Paine's very own words of his
thoughts on religion. And his opinion is the only one that counts here.
Didn't Paine write somewhere that he was raised as a Quaker? Indeed he did.
See part one of "The Age of Reason." So under what guise do you think Paine
was first exposed to monotheism? Could it have been the monotheism of
Quakerism? And Quakerism is one of the English "Dissenter" sects that grew
out of low church Protestantism during the late 16th and early 17th
centuries, isn't it?
Paine also wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "Nothing that is here said can
apply, even with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of
Jesus
Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man. The morality that he
preached and practiced was of the most benevolent kind; and thought
similar
systems of morality had been preached by Confucius, and by some of the
Greek
philosophers, many years before, by the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded
by
any."
In those lines Paine called the "morality . . . preached and practised"
by
Jesus as "the most benevolent kind" and that "it has not been exceeded by
any."
You left out "and thought similar systems of morality had been
preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many
years before, by the Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages"
Actually, I left out nothing and specifically included those words. See
above. If it doesn't show on your news
reader, go to google groups. It is there.
Do you consider that utterance of Paine to be unsympathetic to
Christianity
He recognizes that the Bible has some good morality - morality that
was common to the Bible, Confucius, some Greek philosophers and good
men in all ages. Nothing special about Jesus - he was one of many.
Except that Paine wrote that: "Nothing that is here said can apply, even
with the most distant disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He
was a virtuous and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and
practiced was of the most benevolent kind; and though similar systems of
morality had been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek
philosophers, many years before, by the Quakers since, and by many good men
in all ages, it has not been exceeded by any." From Thomas Paine, "The
Age of Reason, Part One," 1794, on pages 399-452, in 'The Thomas Paine
Reader," ed. by Michael Root and Isaac Cramnick, New York: Penguin
Classics, 1987, page 404, or at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/reason2.htm.
What part of the meaning of "most benevolent kind" eludes you? "Most,"
because it is the superlative of the adjective "many" means not only
exceeded by none, but equaled by none in this context.
when he calls Jesus the greatest moral teacher of all time?
That's your interpretation - Paine never said that. He said that no
one exceeded Jesus, but that others practiced similar morality.
Ah yes, of course. Actually, Paine wrote that ". . . similar systems of
morality had been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek
philosophers, many years before, by the Quakers since, and by many good men
in all ages, it has not been exceeded by any." Jesus "preached and
practised," while the others Paine listed only "preached." Obviously, Paine
wrote that there was a distinction. Paine also wrote that Jesus was "never
exceeded" by all other moral teachers. And that to you is somehow
significantly different from the "greatest moral teacher." Whatever, I
stand corrected. According to Paine, the morality Jesus preached and
practiced merely "has not been exceeded by any." Read Paine's own words in
their full context as they appear above or actually go read all of "The Age
of Reason." It's only 53 pages, surely it can be read easily by anyone in a
couple of hours.
There's a difference between Paine's "never exceeded" and your "never
got up to".
Where do you think I wrote ""never got up to"?
Paine went on to write in "The Age of Reason:" ""That such a person as
Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which was the mode of execution
at
that day, are historical relations strictly within the limits of
probability. He preached most excellent morality and the equality of man;
but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of the Jewish
priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of
the whole order of priesthood."
There Paine declared that Jesus existed and was crucified.
But not resurrected - the very basis of Christianity.
I never claimed Paine was a Christian in his adult years. I did offer
certain of Tom Paine's thoughts on Jesus Christ in Paine's own words. I
know what Paine wrote about the resurrection, thus I know he did not believe
it. But that does not change the fact that Paine wrote the words I cited
above.
Jefferson wrote that he was a Christian. There also exists writings by
Jefferson that indicate he did not believe in the resurrection. If you
begin reading "The Age of Reason" with the third paragraph below the one I
cited above, you too can read Paine's thoughts on the resurrection.
You are indulging yourself in a typical atheist mistake. You construct a
model of Christianity based solely upon the beliefs of today's
fundamentalist
American Christians of the extreme right and then presume that theirs is the
only Christianity. You are mistaken.
You still haven't answered my original question. I repeat it. So how
does
anything Tom Paine [wrote] indicate any sympathy with atheism?
I never claimed it did.
Then you admit that atheism and atheists had no part in the foundation of
the American Republic. Thank you.
You claimed that he indicated sympathy with
Christianity.
I did. And proved it. See above. He claimed Jesus exceeded all other moral
teachers. He believed in the Judeo-Christian God. Read Paine instead of
hackneyed and prejudicial atheist web pages and you will know that.
You still haven't shown that he was different from any
other Deist. (And Deism is not a form of Christianity, as some
Christians like to think.)
Was the deism claimed by Paine in the 18th century descended from
Christianity? Please, do read what Paine, and others of that time and
place, actually wrote before you respond.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest
of them have to pee on the electric fence.
- (Will Rogers)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 07:38:14 PM |
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On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:54:01 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:e2j7l2hceg6qs2uqvkb1vfupm573ra9g6c@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:46:34 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no more;
and I hope for happiness beyond this life."
Monotheism, not Christianity.
Is that right? What was late 18th century monotheism descended from?
Sorry, correlation isn't causality, and all you have is correlation
for your entire argument.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
17 Nov 2006 03:10:30 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:r1jfl2di4u0kjomaa4199t4je157dr60dl@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:54:01 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:e2j7l2hceg6qs2uqvkb1vfupm573ra9g6c@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:46:34 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no more;
and I hope for happiness beyond this life."
Monotheism, not Christianity.
Is that right? What was late 18th century monotheism descended from?
Sorry,
You are correct. Your argument is sorry, and I accept your apology.
correlation isn't causality,
Pfui. Your words are a tacit admission that 18th century monotheism was
indeed descended from Christianity, which clearly received Judaic
monotheism. "Correlation is not causality" but in this case 18th century
European and British North American monotheism was clearly a result of
Christian monotheism. Why? Because the almost universal Christianity of
Western Europe, more particularly English monotheism in this case, was
obviously a Christian idea. All of the sources with very few exceptions
explicitly or implicitly reflect the elements of God expressed in the
Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed. Where else could the English and
American monotheism have come from?
You are making the silly argument that the monotheism expressed in late 18th
century English colonies in North America and England was not descended from
Christianity. Name a single element in the writings of any "Founding
Father" that cannot be traced to Christian doctrine. Bet you can't, but I
am certainly will to read whatever you produce. But since I am a skeptic I
will check your sources. And especially because both fundamentalist
Christians and atheists have an equal propensity for falsehood in my limited
experience hereabouts.
and all you have is correlation
for your entire argument.
You are so full of doo-doo it is astonishing. Have you ever read a single
history of the American Revolution and Early Republic or a biography of any
of the "Founding Fathers"? In the unlikely event you have, it is assuredly
not obvious. Franklin was raised in his youth in the Puritan branch of the
Church of England in Boston, as was John Adams. Tom Paine was raised as a
Quaker. Jefferson and Madison were reared in the Church of England. Adams
and Madison never rejected Christianity, although they did criticize certain
doctrines. Jefferson claimed he was a Christian by his own lights, and that
he did not believe in every element of the Nicene Creed is certainly not
evident in his writings, but neither Jefferson, Adams, or Madison ever
referred to themselves as a Deist. And they knew the difference between a
"Deist" and deist, and the difference between "Deism" and "deism," a
distinction you atheist fellows cannot seem to grasp.) Franklin always
professed a belief in the Christian God. Paine called himself a Deist, but
never disavowed his devotion to the creator God taught him in his Quaker
youth.
What we have here is five men all with solid claims to be among the group of
"Founding Fathers" of the American Republic. All were reared in Christian
Churches. That must mean that they were exposed to the constructs of God
taught in the Christian churches they were reared in, thus their original
knowledge of the concept of God were Christian concepts of God and Christian
concepts of monotheism. All five believed in an omnipotent God who created
everything, a life after death, and all but Paine explicitly wrote that they
worshipped this God. Later in Life, all of these men questioned certain
aspects of Christian doctrine taught in the churches they were reared in,
such as the inerrancy of scripture and the divinity of Jesus. All five
harshly and periodically criticized what they considered to be abuses of the
teaching of Jesus by individual Christians and the various sects of
Christianity, but none ever disavowed the omnipotent creator God of their
youths.
What do you think happened, Mr. Klein? Did Franklin and Adams somehow
totally forget their early Puritan religious training and decide later in
their lives to invent a monotheistic God very much like the Christian God of
their youths?
Did Paine somehow will himself to forget his upbringing in a Quaker
household and in 1793 construct a creator God from his own imagination very
much like the Quaker God he was taught to love and revere in his childhood?
Do you think Jefferson and Madison were kidnapped by atheists and were force
fed memory killing herbs so their early religious training was entirely
blanked out of their consciousness and unconsciousness, and then they both
felt the need to concoct a super being to worship at some point in their
lives?
That is the kind of nincompoopery your theory demands we believe, Mr. Klein.
Yet somehow you and other atheist fanatics harbor the odd and blatantly
false notion that these five men and other "Deists" of the 18th century in
overwhelmingly Christian Europe and colonial America somehow concocted a
monotheistic concept of God independent of Christianity. And you have
introduced nothing, not a scintilla of evidence to support your uninformed
opinion. You only trot out your mostly uninformed personal opinions rooted
in your own personal hatred of religion and collections of highly
questionable and sometimes outright false quotations from atheist web pages.
You can burble about correlation not being causality until you drop, Mr.
Klein, but you got nothin'. The "Founding Fathers" of the American Republic
all received their monotheism from Christianity and believed in the
Christian concept of monotheism their whole lives. And you cannot prove
otherwise. Keep in mind a principle certain atheists hereabouts like to
bandy about, "Occam's razor."
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever
conceived."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
"And now I speak of thanking God, I desire with all Humility to acknowledge,
that I owe the mention'd Happiness of my past Life to his kind Providence,
which led me to the Means I us'd & gave them Success." Benjamin Franklin,
"The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin," in "Autobiography and Other
Writings," K. Silverman, ed., New York: Penguin Classics, 1986, page 4.
A deliberate signature, chosen to illustrate Ben Franklin's devotion to God
as expressed in his autobiography, composed in 1771, 1784, 1788, and 1790.
And there are lots more quotations in Ben Franklin's writings to clearly
demonstrate his belief in, worship of, and love of the Christian God he was
taught about in his childhood. That is true despite the fevered, fearful,
and hateful rantings of certain atheists of the radical fringe in the 21st
century.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
17 Nov 2006 03:48:01 PM |
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On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:10:30 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:r1jfl2di4u0kjomaa4199t4je157dr60dl@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:54:01 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:e2j7l2hceg6qs2uqvkb1vfupm573ra9g6c@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:46:34 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:s8d7l21f0uusfjai2t106jgjhrcopam8mk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 15:23:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
How does anything he wrote indicate any sympathy with Christianity?
Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason:" "I believe in one God, and no more;
and I hope for happiness beyond this life."
Monotheism, not Christianity.
Is that right? What was late 18th century monotheism descended from?
Sorry,
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