| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
" Tom P" |
| Date: |
09 Nov 2006 11:16:35 AM |
| Object: |
Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise;
they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine." (Certain of our
atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for Tom Paine could
learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect,
to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable
man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most benevolent
kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been preached by
Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before, by the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by
any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which was
the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly within
the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and the
equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of
the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of
the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full text at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous printed
editions.
.
|
|
| User: "Greywolf" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 07:02:54 PM |
|
|
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12l7ifl5803qr58@corp.supernews.com...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4553a082$0$14816$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Tak a#344" <notan@emailadressyouspambastards.com> wrote in message
news:o3s6l2lgtq961c77628mro2al7cfvqt87f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:16:35 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
some Cites would be nice. You know, like this,
I did cite it, at least as completely as you did yours. But that was in
the part of the post you deleted. I shall restore my citation which you
snipped: "From Tom Paine, 'The Age of Reason, Part One,' 1794"
"Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full text
at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous
printed
editions."
Or, if you prefer, Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One" pages
399-452, in 'The Thomas Paine Reader," ed. by Michael Root and Isaac
Cramnick, New York: Penguin Classics, 1987. These specific quotations
appear on pages 400, 404, and 405.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to
terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason, pt. 1, "The Author's
Profession of Faith" (1794), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of
Quotations
Who is the publisher, where was it published and when was it published?
Those are standard elements required of bibliographic citations. Go find
and 8th grade English teacher and they can help you out with that.
Have you ever read any of Paine's works all the way through?
The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the
study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it
proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing
and admits of no conclusion.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
I guess you haven't really read Paine.
No falsehood is so fatal as that which is made an article of faith.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Then how do you know the quotation is truly the words of Tom Paine? Are
you accepting on the faith that this "Joseph Lewis is truthful?
Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live
in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us
into eternity.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Same comment.
What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the
belief of this debauchery is called faith.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
What page? Or even what section does that appear in?
Why is your citation sufficient but mine was not? Let's compare the two:
Yours: "Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)"
Mine: "From Tom Paine, '"The Age of Reason, Part One,' 1794."
The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
Another collection of quotations? Which edition? Which page? Where is
the rest of the publication data? Don't you know how to properly and
fully cite a work you are quoting?
The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Another unsourced citation you accept on faith alone. I thought you
atheist fellows didn't rely on faith.
The Bible is a book that has been read more, and examined less, than
any book that ever existed.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Yet another article of faith. You have established a trend. If you are
going to jump up on your hind legs and bark about citing one's sources,
you should do the same.
Priests and conjurors are of the same trade.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793),
Are you sure about that date?
quoted from Jonathon Green,
The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
Another quote from a collection of quotations. You have no idea what Tom
Paine really wrote, do you? Don't feel lonely. I have found through
experience that the same is true of the vast majority of atheists
hereabouts. Their total experience with Jefferson, Washington, Madison,
Adams, Paine and everyone else from history is a highly biased collection
of quotations at various atheist web sites.
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the
cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with
which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent
that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a
history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize
mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest
everything that is cruel.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
What page of which edition?
The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations), also found inVictor J Stenger, Has Science Found
God? (2001)
Yet another alleged quote improperly cited.
Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word
of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the
Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine
Bet I can find and post more quotations from Tom Paine's corpus
supporting belief in God and the practice of religion than you can find
that condemn religion. Care to enter such a competition? You will lose.
Tom Paine was never an atheist.
How does anything you quoted above support atheism?
Why didn't you quote some of Tom Paine's thoughts concerning atheism?
Could it be that Paine, much like Jefferson and John Adams, held atheists
and atheism in contempt and rather loathed atheism?
What did Paine write about Marat and the other atheists who organized the
Terror?
You, like many of your atheist fellow travelers hereabouts, confuse
attacks on the abuses and forms of religion with attacks on God and
religion itself. In fact, many of the "Founding Fathers'" bitterest
polemics are against the abuses of the clergy and religion because they
held God and their religion so dear. Jefferson, Madison, John Adams,
Paine all left extensive writings concerning the abuses of religion.
None was atheist. In fact, I doubt you can find any of the "Founding
Fathers" who declared himself an atheist. But I will certainly read
anything you produce.
Paine was by no means an atheist, but he sure knew problems concerning the
bible when he saw them, and dealt with them with an honesty that is truly
remarkable -- for a non-atheist. The bible as 'the divine word of 'God' is
sheer bull-crap as the amount of 'problems' with the texts should show any
reasonable, and 'fair-minded' individual who seeks the truth. Are you
intellectually honest enough to admit that the bible is useless as a
'proof' for the existence of 'God'?
Bearing that fact in mind, why are you atheists so eager to quote people
who thought atheism silly and contemptible, such as Jefferson, Adams, and
Paine?
Let's just cut to the chase: Did or did not Paine repudiate the claims
that the Bible was 'inerrant' with a massive amount of evidence at his
disposal? Do you not think that the founding fathers would remain
resilient 'bible thumpers' if they knew back then what we now know today
concerning biblical studies and our present day understanding of the
universe? I hardly think so. Only an obstinate brainwashed mind holds to
things so patently absurd.
Greywolf
'Massive' amount of evidence, Greywolf?
You bet -- the Bible.
.
|
|
|
| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
10 Nov 2006 03:46:12 PM |
|
|
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12l7ju5sp61ds8e@corp.supernews.com...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12l7ifl5803qr58@corp.supernews.com...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4553a082$0$14816$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Tak a#344" <notan@emailadressyouspambastards.com> wrote in message
news:o3s6l2lgtq961c77628mro2al7cfvqt87f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:16:35 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond
this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
some Cites would be nice. You know, like this,
I did cite it, at least as completely as you did yours. But that was in
the part of the post you deleted. I shall restore my citation which you
snipped: "From Tom Paine, 'The Age of Reason, Part One,' 1794"
"Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full
text at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous
printed
editions."
Or, if you prefer, Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One" pages
399-452, in 'The Thomas Paine Reader," ed. by Michael Root and Isaac
Cramnick, New York: Penguin Classics, 1987. These specific quotations
appear on pages 400, 404, and 405.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to
terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason, pt. 1, "The Author's
Profession of Faith" (1794), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of
Quotations
Who is the publisher, where was it published and when was it published?
Those are standard elements required of bibliographic citations. Go
find and 8th grade English teacher and they can help you out with that.
Have you ever read any of Paine's works all the way through?
The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the
study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it
proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing
and admits of no conclusion.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
I guess you haven't really read Paine.
No falsehood is so fatal as that which is made an article of faith.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Then how do you know the quotation is truly the words of Tom Paine? Are
you accepting on the faith that this "Joseph Lewis is truthful?
Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live
in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us
into eternity.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Same comment.
What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the
belief of this debauchery is called faith.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
What page? Or even what section does that appear in?
Why is your citation sufficient but mine was not? Let's compare the
two:
Yours: "Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)"
Mine: "From Tom Paine, '"The Age of Reason, Part One,' 1794."
The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
Another collection of quotations? Which edition? Which page? Where is
the rest of the publication data? Don't you know how to properly and
fully cite a work you are quoting?
The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Another unsourced citation you accept on faith alone. I thought you
atheist fellows didn't rely on faith.
The Bible is a book that has been read more, and examined less, than
any book that ever existed.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Yet another article of faith. You have established a trend. If you are
going to jump up on your hind legs and bark about citing one's sources,
you should do the same.
Priests and conjurors are of the same trade.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793),
Are you sure about that date?
quoted from Jonathon Green,
The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
Another quote from a collection of quotations. You have no idea what
Tom Paine really wrote, do you? Don't feel lonely. I have found
through experience that the same is true of the vast majority of
atheists hereabouts. Their total experience with Jefferson, Washington,
Madison, Adams, Paine and everyone else from history is a highly biased
collection of quotations at various atheist web sites.
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the
cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with
which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent
that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a
history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize
mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest
everything that is cruel.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
What page of which edition?
The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations), also found inVictor J Stenger, Has Science Found
God? (2001)
Yet another alleged quote improperly cited.
Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word
of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the
Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine
Bet I can find and post more quotations from Tom Paine's corpus
supporting belief in God and the practice of religion than you can find
that condemn religion. Care to enter such a competition? You will
lose. Tom Paine was never an atheist.
How does anything you quoted above support atheism?
Why didn't you quote some of Tom Paine's thoughts concerning atheism?
Could it be that Paine, much like Jefferson and John Adams, held
atheists and atheism in contempt and rather loathed atheism?
What did Paine write about Marat and the other atheists who organized
the Terror?
You, like many of your atheist fellow travelers hereabouts, confuse
attacks on the abuses and forms of religion with attacks on God and
religion itself. In fact, many of the "Founding Fathers'" bitterest
polemics are against the abuses of the clergy and religion because they
held God and their religion so dear. Jefferson, Madison, John Adams,
Paine all left extensive writings concerning the abuses of religion.
None was atheist. In fact, I doubt you can find any of the "Founding
Fathers" who declared himself an atheist. But I will certainly read
anything you produce.
Paine was by no means an atheist, but he sure knew problems concerning
the bible when he saw them, and dealt with them with an honesty that is
truly remarkable -- for a non-atheist. The bible as 'the divine word of
'God' is sheer bull-crap as the amount of 'problems' with the texts
should show any reasonable, and 'fair-minded' individual who seeks the
truth. Are you intellectually honest enough to admit that the bible is
useless as a 'proof' for the existence of 'God'?
Bearing that fact in mind, why are you atheists so eager to quote people
who thought atheism silly and contemptible, such as Jefferson, Adams,
and Paine?
Let's just cut to the chase: Did or did not Paine repudiate the claims
that the Bible was 'inerrant' with a massive amount of evidence at his
disposal? Do you not think that the founding fathers would remain
resilient 'bible thumpers' if they knew back then what we now know today
concerning biblical studies and our present day understanding of the
universe? I hardly think so. Only an obstinate brainwashed mind holds to
things so patently absurd.
Greywolf
'Massive' amount of evidence, Greywolf?
You bet -- the Bible.
What do you think the Bible is a "massive amount of evidence for?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Greywolf" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
10 Nov 2006 06:33:30 PM |
|
|
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4554eca4$0$14808$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12l7ju5sp61ds8e@corp.supernews.com...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12l7ifl5803qr58@corp.supernews.com...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4553a082$0$14816$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Tak a#344" <notan@emailadressyouspambastards.com> wrote in message
news:o3s6l2lgtq961c77628mro2al7cfvqt87f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:16:35 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond
this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
some Cites would be nice. You know, like this,
I did cite it, at least as completely as you did yours. But that was
in the part of the post you deleted. I shall restore my citation which
you snipped: "From Tom Paine, 'The Age of Reason, Part One,' 1794"
"Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full
text at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous
printed
editions."
Or, if you prefer, Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One" pages
399-452, in 'The Thomas Paine Reader," ed. by Michael Root and Isaac
Cramnick, New York: Penguin Classics, 1987. These specific
quotations appear on pages 400, 404, and 405.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to
terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason, pt. 1, "The Author's
Profession of Faith" (1794), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of
Quotations
Who is the publisher, where was it published and when was it published?
Those are standard elements required of bibliographic citations. Go
find and 8th grade English teacher and they can help you out with that.
Have you ever read any of Paine's works all the way through?
The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the
study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it
proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing
and admits of no conclusion.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
I guess you haven't really read Paine.
No falsehood is so fatal as that which is made an article of faith.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Then how do you know the quotation is truly the words of Tom Paine?
Are you accepting on the faith that this "Joseph Lewis is truthful?
Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live
in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us
into eternity.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Same comment.
What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the
belief of this debauchery is called faith.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
What page? Or even what section does that appear in?
Why is your citation sufficient but mine was not? Let's compare the
two:
Yours: "Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)"
Mine: "From Tom Paine, '"The Age of Reason, Part One,' 1794."
The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
Another collection of quotations? Which edition? Which page? Where
is the rest of the publication data? Don't you know how to properly
and fully cite a work you are quoting?
The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Another unsourced citation you accept on faith alone. I thought you
atheist fellows didn't rely on faith.
The Bible is a book that has been read more, and examined less, than
any book that ever existed.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Yet another article of faith. You have established a trend. If you are
going to jump up on your hind legs and bark about citing one's sources,
you should do the same.
Priests and conjurors are of the same trade.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793),
Are you sure about that date?
quoted from Jonathon Green,
The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
Another quote from a collection of quotations. You have no idea what
Tom Paine really wrote, do you? Don't feel lonely. I have found
through experience that the same is true of the vast majority of
atheists hereabouts. Their total experience with Jefferson,
Washington, Madison, Adams, Paine and everyone else from history is a
highly biased collection of quotations at various atheist web sites.
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the
cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with
which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent
that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a
history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize
mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest
everything that is cruel.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
What page of which edition?
The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations), also found inVictor J Stenger, Has Science Found
God? (2001)
Yet another alleged quote improperly cited.
Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word
of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the
Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine
Bet I can find and post more quotations from Tom Paine's corpus
supporting belief in God and the practice of religion than you can find
that condemn religion. Care to enter such a competition? You will
lose. Tom Paine was never an atheist.
How does anything you quoted above support atheism?
Why didn't you quote some of Tom Paine's thoughts concerning atheism?
Could it be that Paine, much like Jefferson and John Adams, held
atheists and atheism in contempt and rather loathed atheism?
What did Paine write about Marat and the other atheists who organized
the Terror?
You, like many of your atheist fellow travelers hereabouts, confuse
attacks on the abuses and forms of religion with attacks on God and
religion itself. In fact, many of the "Founding Fathers'" bitterest
polemics are against the abuses of the clergy and religion because they
held God and their religion so dear. Jefferson, Madison, John Adams,
Paine all left extensive writings concerning the abuses of religion.
None was atheist. In fact, I doubt you can find any of the "Founding
Fathers" who declared himself an atheist. But I will certainly read
anything you produce.
Paine was by no means an atheist, but he sure knew problems concerning
the bible when he saw them, and dealt with them with an honesty that is
truly remarkable -- for a non-atheist. The bible as 'the divine word of
'God' is sheer bull-crap as the amount of 'problems' with the texts
should show any reasonable, and 'fair-minded' individual who seeks the
truth. Are you intellectually honest enough to admit that the bible is
useless as a 'proof' for the existence of 'God'?
Bearing that fact in mind, why are you atheists so eager to quote
people who thought atheism silly and contemptible, such as Jefferson,
Adams, and Paine?
Let's just cut to the chase: Did or did not Paine repudiate the claims
that the Bible was 'inerrant' with a massive amount of evidence at his
disposal? Do you not think that the founding fathers would remain
resilient 'bible thumpers' if they knew back then what we now know today
concerning biblical studies and our present day understanding of the
universe? I hardly think so. Only an obstinate brainwashed mind holds to
things so patently absurd.
Greywolf
'Massive' amount of evidence, Greywolf?
You bet -- the Bible.
What do you think the Bible is a "massive amount of evidence for?
Look. One can be open-minded in regards to the bible to the point that one
or two 'problematic' details can be ... ahem ... 'overlooked' or
'interpreted' in a novel way. But such details as the sun standing still or
the 'historicity' of Mt. 27:50-53 cannot be dismissed as human
misunderstanding or obstinate blindness to the truth. To the contrary.
Belief that such patent nonsense is literally true betrays a stupidity that
borders on insanity. Jesus never 'rose from the dead'. You have to be one of
the biggest idiots in existence to believe that to be true. To go even
further and maintain Jesus created the universe indicates thinking that can
be justifiably regarded as mentally defective. That *no* evidence exists
that these lies are the truth should leave the matter settled. The thinking
*should* be that no 'God' exists until a 'God' pops into our existence. If
one has to have a theological degree or two from the Union Theological
Seminary to 'interpret' or 'explain' what an embarrassingly silent 'God' has
to say, or has said, about himself and our existence -- with no 'God' to
rebut a single word of biblical texts that are not even 'original'
autographs -- it goes without saying that 'something smells rotten in
Denmark'. If a 'God' wanted 'man' to know everything he wanted man to know,
he certainly wouldn't set down this information in a language that
relatively few people knew and would have to be translated and 'interpreted'
by others for *you* and others to understand. Pretty damn stupid if that's
actually the case, don't you think? What makes the bible 'Holy' or the
'revealed word of 'God'? Only *thinking* that it is, that's all.
Greywolf
.
|
|
|
| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 05:59:21 PM |
|
|
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12la6j312mo718b@corp.supernews.com...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4554eca4$0$14808$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12l7ju5sp61ds8e@corp.supernews.com...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12l7ifl5803qr58@corp.supernews.com...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4553a082$0$14816$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Tak a#344" <notan@emailadressyouspambastards.com> wrote in message
news:o3s6l2lgtq961c77628mro2al7cfvqt87f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:16:35 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond
this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious
duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
some Cites would be nice. You know, like this,
I did cite it, at least as completely as you did yours. But that was
in the part of the post you deleted. I shall restore my citation
which you snipped: "From Tom Paine, 'The Age of Reason, Part One,'
1794"
"Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full
text at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous
printed
editions."
Or, if you prefer, Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One" pages
399-452, in 'The Thomas Paine Reader," ed. by Michael Root and Isaac
Cramnick, New York: Penguin Classics, 1987. These specific
quotations appear on pages 400, 404, and 405.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to
terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason, pt. 1, "The Author's
Profession of Faith" (1794), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of
Quotations
Who is the publisher, where was it published and when was it
published? Those are standard elements required of bibliographic
citations. Go find and 8th grade English teacher and they can help
you out with that.
Have you ever read any of Paine's works all the way through?
The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the
study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it
proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate
nothing
and admits of no conclusion.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
I guess you haven't really read Paine.
No falsehood is so fatal as that which is made an article of faith.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Then how do you know the quotation is truly the words of Tom Paine?
Are you accepting on the faith that this "Joseph Lewis is truthful?
Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live
in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue
us
into eternity.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Same comment.
What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the
belief of this debauchery is called faith.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
What page? Or even what section does that appear in?
Why is your citation sufficient but mine was not? Let's compare the
two:
Yours: "Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)"
Mine: "From Tom Paine, '"The Age of Reason, Part One,' 1794."
The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
Another collection of quotations? Which edition? Which page? Where
is the rest of the publication data? Don't you know how to properly
and fully cite a work you are quoting?
The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Another unsourced citation you accept on faith alone. I thought you
atheist fellows didn't rely on faith.
The Bible is a book that has been read more, and examined less, than
any book that ever existed.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Yet another article of faith. You have established a trend. If you
are going to jump up on your hind legs and bark about citing one's
sources, you should do the same.
Priests and conjurors are of the same trade.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793),
Are you sure about that date?
quoted from Jonathon Green,
The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
Another quote from a collection of quotations. You have no idea what
Tom Paine really wrote, do you? Don't feel lonely. I have found
through experience that the same is true of the vast majority of
atheists hereabouts. Their total experience with Jefferson,
Washington, Madison, Adams, Paine and everyone else from history is a
highly biased collection of quotations at various atheist web sites.
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries,
the
cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with
which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent
that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a
history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize
mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest
everything that is cruel.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
What page of which edition?
The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations), also found inVictor J Stenger, Has Science Found
God? (2001)
Yet another alleged quote improperly cited.
Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word
of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the
Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine
Bet I can find and post more quotations from Tom Paine's corpus
supporting belief in God and the practice of religion than you can
find that condemn religion. Care to enter such a competition? You
will lose. Tom Paine was never an atheist.
How does anything you quoted above support atheism?
Why didn't you quote some of Tom Paine's thoughts concerning atheism?
Could it be that Paine, much like Jefferson and John Adams, held
atheists and atheism in contempt and rather loathed atheism?
What did Paine write about Marat and the other atheists who organized
the Terror?
You, like many of your atheist fellow travelers hereabouts, confuse
attacks on the abuses and forms of religion with attacks on God and
religion itself. In fact, many of the "Founding Fathers'" bitterest
polemics are against the abuses of the clergy and religion because
they held God and their religion so dear. Jefferson, Madison, John
Adams, Paine all left extensive writings concerning the abuses of
religion. None was atheist. In fact, I doubt you can find any of the
"Founding Fathers" who declared himself an atheist. But I will
certainly read anything you produce.
Paine was by no means an atheist, but he sure knew problems concerning
the bible when he saw them, and dealt with them with an honesty that is
truly remarkable -- for a non-atheist. The bible as 'the divine word of
'God' is sheer bull-crap as the amount of 'problems' with the texts
should show any reasonable, and 'fair-minded' individual who seeks the
truth. Are you intellectually honest enough to admit that the bible is
useless as a 'proof' for the existence of 'God'?
Bearing that fact in mind, why are you atheists so eager to quote
people who thought atheism silly and contemptible, such as Jefferson,
Adams, and Paine?
Let's just cut to the chase: Did or did not Paine repudiate the claims
that the Bible was 'inerrant' with a massive amount of evidence at his
disposal? Do you not think that the founding fathers would remain
resilient 'bible thumpers' if they knew back then what we now know
today concerning biblical studies and our present day understanding of
the universe? I hardly think so. Only an obstinate brainwashed mind
holds to things so patently absurd.
Greywolf
'Massive' amount of evidence, Greywolf?
You bet -- the Bible.
What do you think the Bible is a "massive amount of evidence for?
Look. One can be open-minded in regards to the bible to the point that one
or two 'problematic' details can be ... ahem ... 'overlooked' or
'interpreted' in a novel way. But such details as the sun standing still
or the 'historicity' of Mt. 27:50-53 cannot be dismissed as human
misunderstanding or obstinate blindness to the truth. To the contrary.
Belief that such patent nonsense is literally true betrays a stupidity
that borders on insanity. Jesus never 'rose from the dead'. You have to be
one of the biggest idiots in existence to believe that to be true. To go
even further and maintain Jesus created the universe indicates thinking
that can be justifiably regarded as mentally defective. That *no* evidence
exists that these lies are the truth should leave the matter settled. The
thinking *should* be that no 'God' exists until a 'God' pops into our
existence. If one has to have a theological degree or two from the Union
Theological Seminary to 'interpret' or 'explain' what an embarrassingly
silent 'God' has to say, or has said, about himself and our existence --
with no 'God' to rebut a single word of biblical texts that are not even
'original' autographs -- it goes without saying that 'something smells
rotten in Denmark'. If a 'God' wanted 'man' to know everything he wanted
man to know, he certainly wouldn't set down this information in a language
that relatively few people knew and would have to be translated and
'interpreted' by others for *you* and others to understand. Pretty damn
stupid if that's actually the case, don't you think? What makes the bible
'Holy' or the 'revealed word of 'God'? Only *thinking* that it is, that's
all.
Greywolf
That is all really nice. But I can't see all that as an answer to the
question: "What do you think the Bible is a 'massive amount of evidence
for'"?
Is any of that what Tom Paine wrote about the Bible? Actually, no it is
not, albeit there are certain similarities. Have you ever read what Paine
wrote about the Bible?
But what does anything you wrote have to do with what Tom Paine himself
wrote about his very own religious faith, his beliefs in God, life after
death, direct revelation from God to man, and his own opinions concerning
the teachings of Jesus Christ?
.
|
|
|
| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 10:50:03 PM |
|
|
Tom P wrote:
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12la6j312mo718b@corp.supernews.com...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4554eca4$0$14808$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12l7ju5sp61ds8e@corp.supernews.com...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12l7ifl5803qr58@corp.supernews.com...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4553a082$0$14816$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Tak a#344" <notan@emailadressyouspambastards.com> wrote in message
news:o3s6l2lgtq961c77628mro2al7cfvqt87f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:16:35 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond
this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious
duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
some Cites would be nice. You know, like this,
I did cite it, at least as completely as you did yours. But that was
in the part of the post you deleted. I shall restore my citation
which you snipped: "From Tom Paine, 'The Age of Reason, Part One,'
1794"
"Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full
text at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous
printed
editions."
Or, if you prefer, Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One" pages
399-452, in 'The Thomas Paine Reader," ed. by Michael Root and Isaac
Cramnick, New York: Penguin Classics, 1987. These specific
quotations appear on pages 400, 404, and 405.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to
terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason, pt. 1, "The Author's
Profession of Faith" (1794), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of
Quotations
Who is the publisher, where was it published and when was it
published? Those are standard elements required of bibliographic
citations. Go find and 8th grade English teacher and they can help
you out with that.
Have you ever read any of Paine's works all the way through?
The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the
study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it
proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate
nothing
and admits of no conclusion.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
I guess you haven't really read Paine.
No falsehood is so fatal as that which is made an article of faith.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Then how do you know the quotation is truly the words of Tom Paine?
Are you accepting on the faith that this "Joseph Lewis is truthful?
Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live
in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue
us
into eternity.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Same comment.
What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the
belief of this debauchery is called faith.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
What page? Or even what section does that appear in?
Why is your citation sufficient but mine was not? Let's compare the
two:
Yours: "Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)"
Mine: "From Tom Paine, '"The Age of Reason, Part One,' 1794."
The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon
Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
Another collection of quotations? Which edition? Which page? Where
is the rest of the publication data? Don't you know how to properly
and fully cite a work you are quoting?
The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Another unsourced citation you accept on faith alone. I thought you
atheist fellows didn't rely on faith.
The Bible is a book that has been read more, and examined less, than
any book that ever existed.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations)
Yet another article of faith. You have established a trend. If you
are going to jump up on your hind legs and bark about citing one's
sources, you should do the same.
Priests and conjurors are of the same trade.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793),
Are you sure about that date?
quoted from Jonathon Green,
The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations
Another quote from a collection of quotations. You have no idea what
Tom Paine really wrote, do you? Don't feel lonely. I have found
through experience that the same is true of the vast majority of
atheists hereabouts. Their total experience with Jefferson,
Washington, Madison, Adams, Paine and everyone else from history is a
highly biased collection of quotations at various atheist web sites.
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries,
the
cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with
which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent
that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a
history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize
mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest
everything that is cruel.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)
What page of which edition?
The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or
source citations), also found inVictor J Stenger, Has Science Found
God? (2001)
Yet another alleged quote improperly cited.
Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word
of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the
Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom
from the Writings of Thomas Paine
Bet I can find and post more quotations from Tom Paine's corpus
supporting belief in God and the practice of religion than you can
find that condemn religion. Care to enter such a competition? You
will lose. Tom Paine was never an atheist.
How does anything you quoted above support atheism?
Why didn't you quote some of Tom Paine's thoughts concerning atheism?
Could it be that Paine, much like Jefferson and John Adams, held
atheists and atheism in contempt and rather loathed atheism?
What did Paine write about Marat and the other atheists who organized
the Terror?
You, like many of your atheist fellow travelers hereabouts, confuse
attacks on the abuses and forms of religion with attacks on God and
religion itself. In fact, many of the "Founding Fathers'" bitterest
polemics are against the abuses of the clergy and religion because
they held God and their religion so dear. Jefferson, Madison, John
Adams, Paine all left extensive writings concerning the abuses of
religion. None was atheist. In fact, I doubt you can find any of the
"Founding Fathers" who declared himself an atheist. But I will
certainly read anything you produce.
Paine was by no means an atheist, but he sure knew problems concerning
the bible when he saw them, and dealt with them with an honesty that is
truly remarkable -- for a non-atheist. The bible as 'the divine word of
'God' is sheer bull-crap as the amount of 'problems' with the texts
should show any reasonable, and 'fair-minded' individual who seeks the
truth. Are you intellectually honest enough to admit that the bible is
useless as a 'proof' for the existence of 'God'?
Bearing that fact in mind, why are you atheists so eager to quote
people who thought atheism silly and contemptible, such as Jefferson,
Adams, and Paine?
Let's just cut to the chase: Did or did not Paine repudiate the claims
that the Bible was 'inerrant' with a massive amount of evidence at his
disposal? Do you not think that the founding fathers would remain
resilient 'bible thumpers' if they knew back then what we now know
today concerning biblical studies and our present day understanding of
the universe? I hardly think so. Only an obstinate brainwashed mind
holds to things so patently absurd.
Greywolf
'Massive' amount of evidence, Greywolf?
You bet -- the Bible.
What do you think the Bible is a "massive amount of evidence for?
Look. One can be open-minded in regards to the bible to the point that one
or two 'problematic' details can be ... ahem ... 'overlooked' or
'interpreted' in a novel way. But such details as the sun standing still
or the 'historicity' of Mt. 27:50-53 cannot be dismissed as human
misunderstanding or obstinate blindness to the truth. To the contrary.
Belief that such patent nonsense is literally true betrays a stupidity
that borders on insanity. Jesus never 'rose from the dead'. You have to be
one of the biggest idiots in existence to believe that to be true. To go
even further and maintain Jesus created the universe indicates thinking
that can be justifiably regarded as mentally defective. That *no* evidence
exists that these lies are the truth should leave the matter settled. The
thinking *should* be that no 'God' exists until a 'God' pops into our
existence. If one has to have a theological degree or two from the Union
Theological Seminary to 'interpret' or 'explain' what an embarrassingly
silent 'God' has to say, or has said, about himself and our existence --
with no 'God' to rebut a single word of biblical texts that are not even
'original' autographs -- it goes without saying that 'something smells
rotten in Denmark'. If a 'God' wanted 'man' to know everything he wanted
man to know, he certainly wouldn't set down this information in a language
that relatively few people knew and would have to be translated and
'interpreted' by others for *you* and others to understand. Pretty damn
stupid if that's actually the case, don't you think? What makes the bible
'Holy' or the 'revealed word of 'God'? Only *thinking* that it is, that's
all.
Greywolf
That is all really nice. But I can't see all that as an answer to the
question: "What do you think the Bible is a 'massive amount of evidence
for'"?
Homo sapiens penchant for superstition.
What else ?
Is any of that what Tom Paine wrote about the Bible? Actually, no it is
not, albeit there are certain similarities. Have you ever read what Paine
wrote about the Bible?
But what does anything you wrote have to do with what Tom Paine himself
wrote about his very own religious faith, his beliefs in God, life after
death, direct revelation from God to man, and his own opinions concerning
the teachings of Jesus Christ?
.
|
|
|
| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
16 Nov 2006 02:17:01 PM |
|
|
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:4557F918.5815C990@netvigator.com...
Tom P wrote:
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12la6j312mo718b@corp.supernews.com...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4554eca4$0$14808$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12l7ju5sp61ds8e@corp.supernews.com...
<Snip>
Greywolf
That is all really nice. But I can't see all that as an answer to the
question: "What do you think the Bible is a 'massive amount of evidence
for'"?
Homo sapiens penchant for superstition.
What else ?
Are you a nincompoop?
Don't you really mean "homo sapiens sapiens"?
Or do you really mean to state that you are a throwback to the species "homo
sapiens"? I had never truly considered that as an explanation for the
nincompoopery you often post. But that would go a long way towards
explaining some of your bizarre beliefs. Thanks.
Is any of that what Tom Paine wrote about the Bible? Actually, no it is
not, albeit there are certain similarities. Have you ever read what
Paine
wrote about the Bible?
But what does anything you wrote have to do with what Tom Paine himself
wrote about his very own religious faith, his beliefs in God, life after
death, direct revelation from God to man, and his own opinions concerning
the teachings of Jesus Christ?
.
|
|
|
| User: "gebobs" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
16 Nov 2006 02:11:24 PM |
|
|
Tom P wrote:
Are you a nincompoop?
Don't you really mean "homo sapiens sapiens"?
Or do you really mean to state that you are a throwback to the species "homo
sapiens"? I had never truly considered that as an explanation for the
nincompoopery you often post. But that would go a long way towards
explaining some of your bizarre beliefs. Thanks.
Um...we are still H. sapiens...we are in the SUBspecies H. sapiens
sapiens. The only other subspecies that I know of is H. sapiens idaltu.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 09:30:14 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:38:06 -0600, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12l7ifl5803qr58@corp.supernews.com>
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4553a082$0$14816$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
:
Bearing that fact in mind, why are you atheists so eager to quote people
who thought atheism silly and contemptible, such as Jefferson, Adams, and
Paine?
Let's just cut to the chase: Did or did not Paine repudiate the claims that
the Bible was 'inerrant' with a massive amount of evidence at his disposal?
Do you not think that the founding fathers would remain resilient 'bible
thumpers' if they knew back then what we now know today concerning biblical
studies and our present day understanding of the universe? I hardly think
so. Only an obstinate brainwashed mind holds to things so patently absurd.
That's Tom P summed up to a "T".
Wilful ignorance personified.
--
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 11:30:01 PM |
|
|
Tom P wrote:
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
Kind of like 'starting on a lunatic note'
and ending on one!
Religionists in British areas wear Blinkers
In America they wear Blinders
But the results are the same
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise;
they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine." (Certain of our
atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for Tom Paine could
learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect,
to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable
man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most benevolent
kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been preached by
Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before, by the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by
any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which was
the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly within
the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and the
equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of
the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of
the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full text at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous printed
editions.
.
|
|
|
| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
10 Nov 2006 03:08:04 PM |
|
|
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:45540DE7.5951CCEE@netvigator.com...
Tom P wrote:
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
Kind of like 'starting on a lunatic note'
and ending on one!
Why not argue those words with the author of "The Age of Reason"? Those are
not my words. Those are Thomas Paine's words. But you are right that those
words are near the "starting" because those words are the entire third
paragraph of the body of "The Age of Reason." Did you know that or just get
lucky?
Religionists in British areas wear Blinkers
In America they wear Blinders
Thomas Paine was born an Englishman, journeyed to the American colonies,
returned to England, then to France, and then was welcomed in the United
States of America after being driven out of England and imprisoned in
France. So was Paine a wearer of "Blinkers" or "Blinders"?
But the results are the same
And what are those results you speak of?
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise;
they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine." (Certain of
our
atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for Tom Paine could
learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect,
to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable
man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most
benevolent
kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been preached by
Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before, by
the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded
by
any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which
was
the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly
within
the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and the
equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice
of
the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of
the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full text
at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous
printed
editions.
That advice applies to you too, Mr. Young. Whether or not one agrees with
Tom Paine, his ideas materially effected both the American and French
Revolutions, and both of those events are the very biggest deals in modern
history.
Don't you think it is interesting, Mr. Young, that the one figure the
atheists trot out most as a counter to the argument that the United States
was founded on Christian principles turns out to have been a devoted theist
who always believed in and revered the Christian God and Jesus Christ?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Milan" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
10 Nov 2006 08:59:26 PM |
|
|
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4554e3b4$0$14835$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:45540DE7.5951CCEE@netvigator.com...
Tom P wrote:
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
Kind of like 'starting on a lunatic note'
and ending on one!
Why not argue those words with the author of "The Age of Reason"? Those
are not my words. Those are Thomas Paine's words. But you are right that
those words are near the "starting" because those words are the entire
third paragraph of the body of "The Age of Reason." Did you know that or
just get lucky?
Religionists in British areas wear Blinkers
In America they wear Blinders
Thomas Paine was born an Englishman, journeyed to the American colonies,
returned to England, then to France, and then was welcomed in the United
States of America after being driven out of England and imprisoned in
France. So was Paine a wearer of "Blinkers" or "Blinders"?
But the results are the same
And what are those results you speak of?
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise;
they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine." (Certain of
our
atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for Tom Paine
could
learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect,
to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable
man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most
benevolent
kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been preached by
Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before, by
the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been
exceeded by
any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which
was
the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly
within
the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and the
equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and
avarice of
the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance
of
the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full text
at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous
printed
editions.
That advice applies to you too, Mr. Young. Whether or not one agrees with
Tom Paine, his ideas materially effected both the American and French
Revolutions, and both of those events are the very biggest deals in modern
history.
Don't you think it is interesting, Mr. Young, that the one figure the
atheists trot out most as a counter to the argument that the United States
was founded on Christian principles turns out to have been a devoted
theist who always believed in and revered the Christian God and Jesus
Christ?
But he didnt.
regards
Milan
.
|
|
|
| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
11 Nov 2006 09:55:48 AM |
|
|
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rksq6FrntfaU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4554e3b4$0$14835$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:45540DE7.5951CCEE@netvigator.com...
Tom P wrote:
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond
this
life."
Kind of like 'starting on a lunatic note'
and ending on one!
Why not argue those words with the author of "The Age of Reason"? Those
are not my words. Those are Thomas Paine's words. But you are right
that those words are near the "starting" because those words are the
entire third paragraph of the body of "The Age of Reason." Did you know
that or just get lucky?
Religionists in British areas wear Blinkers
In America they wear Blinders
Thomas Paine was born an Englishman, journeyed to the American colonies,
returned to England, then to France, and then was welcomed in the United
States of America after being driven out of England and imprisoned in
France. So was Paine a wearer of "Blinkers" or "Blinders"?
But the results are the same
And what are those results you speak of?
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise;
they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine." (Certain
of our
atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for Tom Paine
could
learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect,
to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an
amiable
man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most
benevolent
kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been preached by
Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before, by
the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been
exceeded by
any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which
was
the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly
within
the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and the
equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and
avarice of
the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance
of
the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full
text at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous
printed
editions.
That advice applies to you too, Mr. Young. Whether or not one agrees
with Tom Paine, his ideas materially effected both the American and
French Revolutions, and both of those events are the very biggest deals
in modern history.
Don't you think it is interesting, Mr. Young, that the one figure the
atheists trot out most as a counter to the argument that the United
States was founded on Christian principles turns out to have been a
devoted theist who always believed in and revered the Christian God and
Jesus Christ?
But he didnt.
Tom Paine's own words conclusively prove that you are mistaken. Read "The
Age of Reason" and discover for yourself just how wrong you are. Pay
particular attention to the first four sections. You can find this little
book and read every word at http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm
.. Why don't you read that and debate from a position of knowledge instead
of ignorance?
regards
Milan
.
|
|
|
| User: "Milan" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
11 Nov 2006 01:17:12 PM |
|
|
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4555ebff$0$7476$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rksq6FrntfaU1@mid.individual.net...
Don't you think it is interesting, Mr. Young, that the one figure the
atheists trot out most as a counter to the argument that the United
States was founded on Christian principles turns out to have been a
devoted theist who always believed in and revered the Christian God and
Jesus Christ?
But he didnt.
Tom Paine's own words conclusively prove that you are mistaken. Read "The
Age of Reason" and discover for yourself just how wrong you are. Pay
particular attention to the first four sections. You can find this little
book and read every word at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm . Why don't you read that
and debate from a position of knowledge instead of ignorance?
regards
Milan
I have. You dont seem to have read the book.
Some quotes from the Age of Reason:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman
church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant
church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and
enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
When also I am told that a woman, called the Virgin Mary, said, or gave out,
that she was with child without any cohabitation with a man, and that her
betrothed husband, Joseph, said that an angel told him so, I have a right to
believe them or not: such a circumstance required a much stronger evidence
than their bare word for it: but we have not even this; for neither Joseph
nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves. It is only reported by others
that they said so. It is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not chose to rest my
belief upon such evidence.
The Christian theory is little else than the idolatry of the ancient
mythologists, accommodated to the purposes of power and revenue; and it yet
remains to reason and philosophy to abolish the amphibious fraud.
As to the Christian system of faith, it appears to me as a species of
atheism -- a sort of religious denial of God. It professed to believe in man
rather than in God. It is as near to atheism as twilight to darkness. It
introduces between man and his Maker an opaque body, which it calls a
Redeemer, as the moon introduces her opaque self between the earth and the
sun, and it produces by this means a religious or irreligious eclipse of the
light. It has put the whole orbit of reason into shade.
IT is upon this plain narrative of facts, together with another case I am
going to mention, that the Christian mythologists, calling themselves the
Christian Church, have erected their fable, which for absurdity and
extravagance is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the
mythology of the ancients.
It is, however, not difficult to account for the credit that was given to
the story of Jesus Christ being the Son of God. He was born when the heathen
mythology had still some fashion and repute in the world, and that mythology
had prepared the people for the belief of such a story.
---------------
Which of these quotations from the Age of Reason seems to you to be positive
towards christianity? If you have any please post them.
regards
Milan
.
|
|
|
| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
15 Nov 2006 04:19:23 PM |
|
|
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rmm3hFrtrjcU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4555ebff$0$7476$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rksq6FrntfaU1@mid.individual.net...
Don't you think it is interesting, Mr. Young, that the one figure the
atheists trot out most as a counter to the argument that the United
States was founded on Christian principles turns out to have been a
devoted theist who always believed in and revered the Christian God and
Jesus Christ?
But he didnt.
Tom Paine's own words conclusively prove that you are mistaken. Read
"The Age of Reason" and discover for yourself just how wrong you are.
Pay particular attention to the first four sections. You can find this
little book and read every word at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm . Why don't you read
that and debate from a position of knowledge instead of ignorance?
regards
Milan
I have. You dont seem to have read the book.
Actually, I have read several of Tom Paine's books, although pamphlets and
broadsides are more accurate terms. I didn't go to my favorite atheist web
pages and copy and paste their collection of quotations and then post it
without attribution.
Some quotes from the Age of Reason:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman
church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant
church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
What page is this on? What do the paragraphs above and below it contain?
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and
enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
What page is this on? What else is on the same page? Well . . .
Three paragraphs above your quote, Tom Paine wrote this: "I believe in one
God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life." From Thomas
Paine, "The Age of Reason," in "The Thomas Paine Reader," New York, Penguin
Classics, 1987, page 400 or at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/reason1.htm:
How many atheists make such a profession of faith? How did you manage to
miss an explicit statement by Tom Paine that he believed in God on the same
page of the work you claimed to have read?
When also I am told that a woman, called the Virgin Mary, said, or gave
out, that she was with child without any cohabitation with a man, and that
her betrothed husband, Joseph, said that an angel told him so, I have a
right to believe them or not: such a circumstance required a much stronger
evidence than their bare word for it: but we have not even this; for
neither Joseph nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves. It is only
reported by others that they said so. It is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do
not chose to rest my belief upon such evidence.
What page is that on? What do the paragraphs above and below it read?
How does that make Paine an atheist?
The Christian theory is little else than the idolatry of the ancient
mythologists, accommodated to the purposes of power and revenue; and it
yet remains to reason and philosophy to abolish the amphibious fraud.
How does that make Paine an atheist?
As to the Christian system of faith, it appears to me as a species of
atheism -- a sort of religious denial of God. It professed to believe in
man rather than in God. It is as near to atheism as twilight to darkness.
It introduces between man and his Maker an opaque body, which it calls a
Redeemer, as the moon introduces her opaque self between the earth and the
sun, and it produces by this means a religious or irreligious eclipse of
the light. It has put the whole orbit of reason into shade.
The next three paragraphs make interesting reading. How about if I add
them? Good, I shall.
"The effect of this obscurity has been that of turning everything upside
down, and representing it in reverse, and among the revolutions it has thus
magically produced, it has made a revolution in theology."
"That which is now called natural philosophy, embracing the whole circle of
science, of which astronomy occupies the chief place, is the study of the
works of God, and of the power and wisdom of God in his works, and is the
true theology."
"As to the theology that is now studied in its place, it is the study of
human opinions and of human fancies concerning God. It is not the study of
God himself in the works that he has made, but in the works or writings that
man has made; and it is not among the least of the mischiefs that the
Christian system has done to the world, that it has abandoned the original
and beautiful system of theology, like a beautiful innocent, to distress and
reproach, to make room for the hag of superstition."
How do you think those words make Tom Paine an atheist?
IT is upon this plain narrative of facts, together with another case I am
going to mention, that the Christian mythologists, calling themselves the
Christian Church, have erected their fable, which for absurdity and
extravagance is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the
mythology of the ancients.
How do you think those words make Paine an atheist?
Why didn't you finish that paragraph below? I believe I will finish it so
you have the context more accurately.
It is, however, not difficult to account for the credit that was given to
the story of Jesus Christ being the Son of God. He was born when the
heathen mythology had still some fashion and repute in the world, and that
mythology had prepared the people for the belief of such a story.
"Almost all the extraordinary men that lived under the heathen mythology
were reputed to be the sons of some of their gods. It was not a new thing,
at that time, to believe a man to have been celestially begotten; the
intercourse of gods with women was then a matter of familiar opinion. Their
Jupiter, according to their accounts, had cohabited with hundreds: the
story, therefore, had nothing in it either new, wonderful, or obscene; it
was conformable to the opinions that then prevailed among the people called
Gentiles, or Mythologists, and it was those people only that believed it.
The Jews who had kept strictly to the belief of one God, and no more, and
who had always rejected the heathen mythology, never credited the story."
You can read the whole section at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/reason2.htm.
Why did you quote these passages out of the sequence they appear in "The Age
of Reason"? Allow me to answer my own question. You obtained these
quotations from an atheist web page. And since atheist web pages are
propaganda they only extract and post quotes that support atheism. You are
the third atheist who have posted quotes by Tom Paine who obviously did not
read the paragraphs above and below the parts you extracted. So tell us,
can you, how do you read a page in a book and manage to only read the
sentences that support your agenda and ignore the sentences that
conclusively disprove your thesis?
---------------
Which of these quotations from the Age of Reason seems to you to be
positive towards christianity? If you have any please post them.
First let me correct you. You tried to put words in my mouth. I quote from
near the top of this post: ". . . that the one figure the atheists trot out
most as a counter to the argument that the United States was founded on
Christian principles turns out to have been a devoted theist who always
believed in and revered the Christian God and Jesus Christ?"
You have chosen carefully to select only those sections from "The Age of
Reason" in which Paine attacks various aspects of Christianity. And you
have carefully avoided Paine's profession of faith. Why are you afraid to
post the whole story? Tom Paine wasn't ashamed or afraid to publicly
express his belief in God. Why are you?
I quoted Paine's profession of belief in God and life after death above.
Here are more from "The Age of Reason," Part One. These quotes are from
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/reason.htm and the Penguin Classics
edition.
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect,
to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable man.
The morality that he preached and practised was of the most benevolent kind;
and though similar systems of morality had been preached by Confucius, and
by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before; by the Quakers since;
and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by any."
"That such a person as Jesus Christ existed, and that he was crucified,
which was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations
strictly within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent
morality and the equality of man; but he preached also against the
corruptions and avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the
hatred and vengeance of the whole order of priesthood. The accusation which
those priests brought against him was that of sedition and conspiracy
against the Roman government, to which the Jews were then subject and
tributary; and it is not improbable that the Roman government might have
some secret apprehensions of the effects of his doctrine, as well as the
Jewish priests; neither is it improbable that Jesus Christ had in
contemplation the delivery of the Jewish nation from the bondage of the
Romans. Between the two, however, this virtuous reformer and revolutionist
lost his life."
"But some, perhaps, will say: Are we to have no word of God - no revelation?
I answer, Yes; there is a word of God; there is a revelation."
"It is only in the CREATION that all our ideas and conceptions of a word of
God can unite. The Creation speaketh an universal language, independently of
human speech or human language, multiplied and various as they may be. It is
an ever-existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it
cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot
be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be
published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the
other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this word of God
reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God."
"Do we want to contemplate his power? We see it in the immensity of the
Creation. Do we want to contemplate his wisdom? We see it in the
unchangeable order by which the incomprehensible whole is governed! Do we
want to contemplate his munificence? We see it in the abundance with which
he fills the earth. Do we want to contemplate his mercy? We see it in his
not withholding that abundance even from the unthankful. In fine, do we want
to know what God is? Search not the book called the Scripture, which any
human hand might make, but the Scripture called the Creation."
"The only idea man can affix to the name of God is that of a first cause,
the cause of all things. And incomprehensible and difficult as it is for a
man to conceive what a first cause is, he arrives at the belief of it from
the tenfold greater difficulty of disbelieving it. It is difficult beyond
description to conceive that space can have no end; but it is more difficult
to conceive an end. It is difficult beyond the power of man to conceive an
eternal duration of what we call time; but it is more impossible to conceive
a time when there shall be no time."
"In like manner of reasoning, everything we behold carries in itself the
internal evidence that it did not make itself Every man is an evidence to
himself that he did not make himself; neither could his father make himself,
nor his grandfather, nor any of his race; neither could any tree, plant, or
animal make itsel | | | | | | |
