Tom P wrote:

<calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:i6p9l2l76foij99fsqg4s1ds2c3h5p477i@4ax.com...

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 15:08:04 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:45540DE7.5951CCEE@netvigator.com...

Tom P wrote:

"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond
this
life."

Kind of like 'starting on a lunatic note'
and ending on one!

Why not argue those words with the author of "The Age of Reason"?
Those
are
not my words. Those are Thomas Paine's words. But you are right that
those
words are near the "starting" because those words are the entire third
paragraph of the body of "The Age of Reason." Did you know that or
just
get
lucky?

What makes you imagine he means what you mean by the word "God"?

Paine's own words describe his concept of God. I have read those words.
I
have posted some of those words. If you read Paine's corpus, you too can
learn what his concept of God was. My concept of God is irrelevant
because
I was not around during the foundation of the American republic. The
only
concepts that are germane and relevant are those held by the people of
that
time and place. That means your notions of God or atheism or deism are
also
incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial to this topic.

Amazing.

A god that claims to have created everything

and we have to go scrummaging around for 'concepts'

[and you wonder why there are atheists !?]

Religionists in British areas wear Blinkers
In America they wear Blinders

Thomas Paine was born an Englishman, journeyed to the American
colonies,
returned to England, then to France, and then was welcomed in the
United
States of America after being driven out of England and imprisoned in
France. So was Paine a wearer of "Blinkers" or "Blinders"?

But the results are the same

And what are those results you speak of?

"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious
duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."

"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise;
they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine."
(Certain
of
our
atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for Tom Paine
could
learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)

"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect,
to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an
amiable
man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most
benevolent
kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been preached by
Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before,
by
the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been
exceeded
by
any."

"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified,
which
was
the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly
within
the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and
the
equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and
avarice
of
the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and
vengeance
of
the whole order of priesthood."

From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794

Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full
text
at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous
printed
editions.

That advice applies to you too, Mr. Young. Whether or not one agrees
with
Tom Paine, his ideas materially effected both the American and French
Revolutions, and both of those events are the very biggest deals in
modern
history.

Don't you think it is interesting, Mr. Young, that the one figure the
atheists trot out most as a counter to the argument that the United
States
was founded on Christian principles turns out to have been a devoted
theist
who always believed in and revered the Christian God and Jesus Christ?

"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:45555AFF.266A4D78@netvigator.com...

Tom P wrote:

"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:45540DE7.5951CCEE@netvigator.com...

Tom P wrote:

"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond
this
life."

Kind of like 'starting on a lunatic note'
and ending on one!

Why not argue those words with the author of "The Age of Reason"? Those
are
not my words. Those are Thomas Paine's words. But you are right that
those
words are near the "starting" because those words are the entire third
paragraph of the body of "The Age of Reason." Did you know that or just
get
lucky?

Religionists in British areas wear Blinkers
In America they wear Blinders

Thomas Paine was born an Englishman, journeyed to the American colonies,
returned to England, then to France, and then was welcomed in the United
States of America after being driven out of England and imprisoned in
France. So was Paine a wearer of "Blinkers" or "Blinders"?

He had a blinker over his left eye and a blinder over his right.

Next question.

None pending, but thanks.

But the results are the same

And what are those results you speak of?

Banality, confusion and child abuse
[the indoctrination of any child under the age of fourteen with religious
dogma]

And indoctrinating children in atheism is not child abuse (at least by your
definition, speaking of banality and confusion)? Aren't we so glad people
like you are a tiny minority?

"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."

"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise;
they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine." (Certain
of
our
atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for Tom Paine
could
learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)

"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect,
to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an
amiable
man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most
benevolent
kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been preached by
Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before,
by
the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been
exceeded
by
any."

"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which
was
the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly
within
the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and
the
equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and
avarice
of
the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance
of
the whole order of priesthood."

From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794

Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full
text
at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous
printed
editions.

That advice applies to you too, Mr. Young. Whether or not one agrees
with
Tom Paine, his ideas materially effected both the American and French
Revolutions, and both of those events are the very biggest deals in
modern
history.

Don't you think it is interesting, Mr. Young, that the one figure the
atheists trot out most as a counter to the argument that the United
States
was founded on Christian principles turns out to have been a devoted
theist
who always believed in and revered the Christian God and Jesus Christ?

No, being an Englishman I never trot out that argument. Whether or not
the USA
was founded by Christians is academic as it was so long ago. What is more
pertinent today is the arrant use of mythology in the Deep South and other
parts of the USA that warp people minds.

Wyoming and Arizona and Utah and Indiana and Nebraska are in the "Deep
South"? Perhaps you should brush up on your North American geography and
demographics before you post.

Whenever an american president ends
his speech with "God bless america" I inwardly cringe - all quality of al
that
he said before flies out of the window. It is now 2006 not 1006

I rather think God doesn't take sides in most of our little earthbound
spats.

It reaches levels where the likes of Benny Hinn, who flies around in his
own
executive jet, to perform claimed miracles on a weekly basis using others
to
assist him to perpetrate his scams. This is just one example; there must
be
ten thousand more. I remember watching a poop black boy on one show, his
dad
stood behind him with a hand on each of his shoulder and written all over
this
man's face was "Screw this up boy or get any word wrong and you are for
it, I'm
getting good money for this". The boys fax was an epitome of guilt, as
they
say written all over it, he was being required to lie about his arm that
miraculously healed up. Sickening.

I agree. Why do you think Benny Hinn is typical of Christians, or even
American Christians? The man is a member of a tiny minority on the lunatic
fringe of Christianity. Just as Kim Jong Il is (I hope) among the tiny
minority of atheists on the opposite end of the spectrum from Benny Hinn.

Encpasulating atheisim is never better done by reading the final line of
Emmett's piece below.

Now you have a good weekend.

"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is
human concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious
mind
cannot begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not
an old
religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and
never has
been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in its
simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of
madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]

If that makes you feel good, go ahead and believe it. Isn't liberty of
conscience wonderful?

But the argument is singularly uncompelling.