| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
" Tom P" |
| Date: |
09 Nov 2006 11:16:35 AM |
| Object: |
Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise;
they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine." (Certain of our
atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for Tom Paine could
learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect,
to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable
man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most benevolent
kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been preached by
Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before, by the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by
any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which was
the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly within
the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and the
equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of
the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of
the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Anyone can and should read the entire work, which is available full text at
http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm as well as numerous printed
editions.
.
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| User: "Jimmy" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
15 Nov 2006 04:08:44 PM |
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Tom P wrote:
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise;
they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine." (Certain of our
atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for Tom Paine could
learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant disrespect,
to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and an amiable
man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the most benevolent
kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been preached by
Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years before, by the
Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by
any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which was
the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly within
the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and the
equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and avarice of
the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of
the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Thomas Paine was no great philosopher or historian. His assumptions
and logic are seriously flawed. The most interesting thing about this
whole chapter in history is that he first wrote to Franklin about his
beliefs and desire to write. He tried to disuade him with the logic,
"What good will come of this?". I think Franklin knew that the beliefs
of the day were too strong for Paine to overcome this with a long
rambling paper. In the end, the paper marked the end of Paine's
career in politics.
Jimmy Boy
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| User: "Milan" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 01:05:18 PM |
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" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45535bfa$0$14838$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise;
they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine." (Certain of
our atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for Tom Paine
could learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and
an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the
most benevolent kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been
preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years
before, by the Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has not
been exceeded by any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which was
the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly
within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality and
the equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and
avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and
vengeance of the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Other good quotes from Paine:
"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of
nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by no
authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of no
conclusion"
"Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in,
but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us into
eternity."
" What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of
this debauchery is called faith"
" The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind."
"The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense"
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin
in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
"[...] the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian Church,
have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and extravagance, is not
exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the ancients. "
"Thomas did not believe the resurrection, and, as they say, would not
believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither
will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every other
person, as for Thomas. "
regards
Milan
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 03:23:29 PM |
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"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhcl5Frf97aU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45535bfa$0$14838$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine."
(Certain of our atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration for
Tom Paine could learn from this . . . as could our Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous and
an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was of the
most benevolent kind; and thought similar systems of morality had been
preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many years
before, by the Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it has
not been exceeded by any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which
was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly
within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality
and the equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions and
avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred and
vengeance of the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Other good quotes from Paine:
"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study
of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by
no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of
no conclusion"
"Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in,
but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us into
eternity."
" What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of
this debauchery is called faith"
" The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind."
"The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense"
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin
in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
"[...] the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian
Church, have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and extravagance,
is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the
ancients. "
"Thomas did not believe the resurrection, and, as they say, would not
believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither
will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every other
person, as for Thomas. "
regards
Milan
Yes indeed, I have read those quotes also. But when reads the entire book,
such is normally the case.
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
16 Nov 2006 10:50:18 PM |
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Tom P wrote:
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhcl5Frf97aU1@mid.individual.net...
<snip>
Yes indeed, I have read those quotes also. But when reads the entire book,
such is normally the case.
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
I think it is more the case that modern atheists have much sympathy
with the ideas and more importantly the attitude of Thomas Paine. He
was critical and skeptical of dogmatic religion and a freethinker - and
atheists are (or aspire to be or wish to be seen as) freethinkers also,
and so he is a natural figure of admiration.
Actual out and out atheists were a rarity in Paines day - but what is
important is not so much the end that someone arrives at but the
willingness to question and doubt.
The freethinking attitude that leads a 18th century westerner to Deism
would be expected to lead a modern person to godlessness.
Cheers, Mark.
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
20 Nov 2006 06:29:16 PM |
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"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1163739018.615904.235330@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Tom P wrote:
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhcl5Frf97aU1@mid.individual.net...
<snip>
Yes indeed, I have read those quotes also. But when reads the entire
book,
such is normally the case.
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
I think it is more the case that modern atheists have much sympathy
with the ideas and more importantly the attitude of Thomas Paine. He
was critical and skeptical of dogmatic religion and a freethinker - and
atheists are (or aspire to be or wish to be seen as) freethinkers also,
and so he is a natural figure of admiration.
Actual out and out atheists were a rarity in Paines day - but what is
important is not so much the end that someone arrives at but the
willingness to question and doubt.
I think you made some cogent points there. I would hasten to add that there
were a small but loud and famous group of atheists in 18th century Western
Europe, so the concepts of atheism were not unknown.
The freethinking attitude that leads a 18th century westerner to Deism
would be expected to lead a modern person to godlessness.
Do you include agnosticism in "godlessness"?
Cheers, Mark.
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
20 Nov 2006 09:41:01 PM |
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Tom P wrote:
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1163739018.615904.235330@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Tom P wrote:
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhcl5Frf97aU1@mid.individual.net...
<snip>
Yes indeed, I have read those quotes also. But when reads the entire
book,
such is normally the case.
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
I think it is more the case that modern atheists have much sympathy
with the ideas and more importantly the attitude of Thomas Paine. He
was critical and skeptical of dogmatic religion and a freethinker - and
atheists are (or aspire to be or wish to be seen as) freethinkers also,
and so he is a natural figure of admiration.
Actual out and out atheists were a rarity in Paines day - but what is
important is not so much the end that someone arrives at but the
willingness to question and doubt.
I think you made some cogent points there. I would hasten to add that there
were a small but loud and famous group of atheists in 18th century Western
Europe, so the concepts of atheism were not unknown.
"If there were no God, it would be necessary to invent him."
[Voltaire 1694-1778]
Expedit esse deos, et, ut expedit, esse putemus
It is convenient that there be gods, let us believe that there are
[Ovid 34 BC - c.17 AD]
"If, at age five, you do not know the gods are
made up things and the myths of impossible tales you are a fool."
[Suetonius 75 - 160 AD]
The freethinking attitude that leads a 18th century westerner to Deism
would be expected to lead a modern person to godlessness.
Do you include agnosticism in "godlessness"?
Cheers, Mark.
.
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| User: "Cazador" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
17 Nov 2006 09:10:36 AM |
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Richo wrote:
Tom P wrote:
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhcl5Frf97aU1@mid.individual.net...
<snip>
Yes indeed, I have read those quotes also. But when reads the entire book,
such is normally the case.
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
I think it is more the case that modern atheists have much sympathy
with the ideas and more importantly the attitude of Thomas Paine. He
was critical and skeptical of dogmatic religion and a freethinker - and
atheists are (or aspire to be or wish to be seen as) freethinkers also,
and so he is a natural figure of admiration.
Actual out and out atheists were a rarity in Paines day - but what is
important is not so much the end that someone arrives at but the
willingness to question and doubt.
The freethinking attitude that leads a 18th century westerner to Deism
would be expected to lead a modern person to godlessness.
Cheers, Mark.
But the basic logic of the matter hasn't changed. The freethinking
attitude led then and leads now to agnosticism which is fully
consistent with the great respect and reverence displayed by the
founders for Christian moral and ethical doctrine. They followed
Christ's teachings but many doubted his divinity.
.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 06:53:56 PM |
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" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:455395d8$0$14830$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhcl5Frf97aU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45535bfa$0$14838$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine."
(Certain of our atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration
for Tom Paine could learn from this . . . as could our Christian
brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous
and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was of
the most benevolent kind; and thought similar systems of morality had
been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many
years before, by the Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it
has not been exceeded by any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which
was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly
within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality
and the equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions
and avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred
and vengeance of the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Other good quotes from Paine:
"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study
of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by
no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of
no conclusion"
"Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in,
but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us into
eternity."
" What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief
of this debauchery is called faith"
" The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind."
"The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense"
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
"[...] the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian
Church, have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and extravagance,
is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the
ancients. "
"Thomas did not believe the resurrection, and, as they say, would not
believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So
neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every
other person, as for Thomas. "
regards
Milan
Yes indeed, I have read those quotes also. But when reads the entire
book, such is normally the case.
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
Well he took his first baby steps by demonstrating -- in a very public
way -- that the bible was by no means 'inerrant'. Time and his 'time'
precluded him from becoming one. But I have little doubt that if he had our
present day understanding of the universe he would have 'converted' in a
heartbeat. But, then again, *that* is an 'article of faith' on my part,
isn't it. You'll notice, though, that *that* kind of faith rests on a series
of facts that makes the conclusion I have reached a 'reasonable' one.
'Faith' in the existence of a 'God' that not one theist in the history of
mankind has *ever* been able to provide irrefutable 'proof' proving that he
does, speaks volumes and can be legitimately regarded as 'mindless' faith.
And if not, please explain *why* not?
Don't you think it's time to put that one in the barn?
Greywolf
.
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| User: " Tom P" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 06:43:00 PM |
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"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12l7jd9knomo510@corp.supernews.com...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:455395d8$0$14830$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhcl5Frf97aU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45535bfa$0$14838$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond
this life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine."
(Certain of our atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration
for Tom Paine could learn from this . . . as could our Christian
brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous
and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was of
the most benevolent kind; and thought similar systems of morality had
been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many
years before, by the Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages,
it has not been exceeded by any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which
was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations
strictly within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent
morality and the equality of man; but he preached also against the
corruptions and avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon
him the hatred and vengeance of the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Other good quotes from Paine:
"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study
of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds
by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits
of no conclusion"
"Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live
in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us
into eternity."
" What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief
of this debauchery is called faith"
" The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind."
"The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense"
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
"[...] the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian
Church, have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and extravagance,
is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the
ancients. "
"Thomas did not believe the resurrection, and, as they say, would not
believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So
neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every
other person, as for Thomas. "
regards
Milan
Yes indeed, I have read those quotes also. But when reads the entire
book, such is normally the case.
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
Well he took his first baby steps by demonstrating -- in a very public
way -- that the bible was by no means 'inerrant'.
Jefferson and John Adams did the same thing but called themselves Christians
while they did it. So did lots of other people. If you read in the
literature of the 18th century such attacks are everywhere. You, like so
many of your atheist fellow travelers, confuse the 18th century
anti-clericalism and attacks on the abuses committed by Christians to
attacks on God, Jesus, and the teachings of Jesus. There were thousands of
the former, very few of the later.
Time and his 'time' precluded him from becoming one.
Why do you say that? Diderot, Marat, Pierre Chaumette, Jacques René Hébert,
and thousands, maybe tens of thousands of other people who were Paine's
contemporaries or preceded Paine publicly professed atheism. In fact, some
of these very same atheists imprisoned Tom Paine in 1793 during that bit of
atheist mass murder known as the "Terror."
But I have little doubt that if he had our present day understanding of
the universe he would have 'converted' in a heartbeat.
You are engaged in pure speculation that you cannot prove. That is not
reasonable.
But, then again, *that* is an 'article of faith' on my part, isn't it.
Sure is.
You'll notice, though, that *that* kind of faith rests on a series of
facts that makes the conclusion I have reached a 'reasonable' one.
No, it rests on pure unprovable speculation founded in unknowable premises.
How can anything based solely in unprovable speculation and unknowable
premises results in a reasonable conclusion? Tom Paine was a man of the
18th century and it is not knowable how he would react to the 21st century.
End of story. The discussion is about what Paine did believe as indicated
by his own words.
'Faith' in the existence of a 'God' that not one theist in the history of
mankind has *ever* been able to provide irrefutable 'proof' proving that
he does, speaks volumes and can be legitimately regarded as 'mindless'
faith. And if not, please explain *why* not?
Depends how you define "irrefutable 'proof'," but your post is a red herring
because it has nothing to do with what Tom Paine actually wrote.
Don't you think it's time to put that one in the barn?
No. Tom Paine was never an atheist. Tom Paine considered himself to have
begun life as a Quaker, and evolved into a Deist. How do we know? Tom
Paine said so. Period.
Just as you are the leading expert on your atheist sentiments, Tom Paine was
the leading expert on his theist and religious sentiments. Why would you
presume to know more about Tom Paine's opinions than Tom Paine did?
The "summa" here are these: There are no atheist influences in the
foundation of the American Republic. No atheist participated in the
foundation of the American Republic. Tom Paine is probably the closest
thing to an atheist among that group called "Founding Fathers." Tom Paine
was never an atheist and never changed from his beliefs in the
Judeo-Christian God as the Creator of the universe, life after death, direct
revelation from God to man, and that he considered that Jesus Christ
exceeded all teachers of morality. The result is this: despite all the
wailing and gnashing of teeth, bitching, bellyaching, attempts to change the
subject, and attacks on the messenger by atheists, you atheists got nothin'
when it comes to the foundation of the American Republic.
If you think you do have some evidence of atheist influence in the founding
of the American Republic, produce it. No one has yet.
But remember that your speculation concerning what Tom Paine might have
believed if Tom Paine was alive now and if Tom Paine knew what you know is
evidence of nothing. Tom Paine is not alive now and never knew what we now
know, and never will. Tom Paine belongs exclusively to history so he must
be evaluated in his own time and place, not a time and place you wish to
artificially transport him to. But Tom Paine left us a rich trove of his
thoughts, beliefs, and ideals, and he assuredly know all about the atheists
and atheism of his own time, so we can construct a very accurate assessment
of what Tom Paine did believe. And all of the evidence indicates that Tom
Paine chose to be a Deist and rejected atheism until the day he died.
Greywolf
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| User: "Milan" |
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| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 03:51:09 PM |
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" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:455395d8$0$14830$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhcl5Frf97aU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45535bfa$0$14838$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this
life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine."
(Certain of our atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration
for Tom Paine could learn from this . . . as could our Christian
brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous
and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was of
the most benevolent kind; and thought similar systems of morality had
been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many
years before, by the Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages, it
has not been exceeded by any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which
was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations strictly
within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent morality
and the equality of man; but he preached also against the corruptions
and avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon him the hatred
and vengeance of the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Other good quotes from Paine:
"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study
of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by
no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of
no conclusion"
"Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in,
but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us into
eternity."
" What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief
of this debauchery is called faith"
" The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind."
"The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense"
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
"[...] the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian
Church, have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and extravagance,
is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the
ancients. "
"Thomas did not believe the resurrection, and, as they say, would not
believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So
neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every
other person, as for Thomas. "
regards
Milan
Yes indeed, I have read those quotes also. But when reads the entire
book, such is normally the case.
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
I never said Paine was an atheist. He was a deist.
regards
Milan
.
|
|
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| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 06:28:32 PM |
|
|
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhmc4FrcjsnU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:455395d8$0$14830$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhcl5Frf97aU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45535bfa$0$14838$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond
this life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine."
(Certain of our atheist brethren hereabouts who post their admiration
for Tom Paine could learn from this . . . as could our Christian
brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous
and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was of
the most benevolent kind; and thought similar systems of morality had
been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers, many
years before, by the Quakers since, and by many good men in all ages,
it has not been exceeded by any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which
was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations
strictly within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent
morality and the equality of man; but he preached also against the
corruptions and avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon
him the hatred and vengeance of the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Other good quotes from Paine:
"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study
of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds
by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits
of no conclusion"
"Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live
in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us
into eternity."
" What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief
of this debauchery is called faith"
" The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind."
"The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense"
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
"[...] the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian
Church, have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and extravagance,
is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the mythology of the
ancients. "
"Thomas did not believe the resurrection, and, as they say, would not
believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So
neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every
other person, as for Thomas. "
regards
Milan
Yes indeed, I have read those quotes also. But when reads the entire
book, such is normally the case.
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
I never said Paine was an atheist. He was a deist.
regards
Milan
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know from reading
several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books that Paine was
never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom Paine [wrote]
indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
.
|
|
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| User: "Milan" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
10 Nov 2006 12:35:35 PM |
|
|
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4553c136$0$14820$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhmc4FrcjsnU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:455395d8$0$14830$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhcl5Frf97aU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45535bfa$0$14838$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond
this life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties
consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our
fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to
mine." (Certain of our atheist brethren hereabouts who post their
admiration for Tom Paine could learn from this . . . as could our
Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous
and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was
of the most benevolent kind; and thought similar systems of morality
had been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek philosophers,
many years before, by the Quakers since, and by many good men in all
ages, it has not been exceeded by any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified, which
was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations
strictly within the limits of probability. He preached most excellent
morality and the equality of man; but he preached also against the
corruptions and avarice of the Jewish priests, and this brought upon
him the hatred and vengeance of the whole order of priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Other good quotes from Paine:
"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the
study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it
proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing
and admits of no conclusion"
"Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live
in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us
into eternity."
" What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty
committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief
of this debauchery is called faith"
" The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind."
"The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense"
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
"[...] the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian
Church, have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and
extravagance, is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the
mythology of the ancients. "
"Thomas did not believe the resurrection, and, as they say, would not
believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So
neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every
other person, as for Thomas. "
regards
Milan
Yes indeed, I have read those quotes also. But when reads the entire
book, such is normally the case.
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
I never said Paine was an atheist. He was a deist.
regards
Milan
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know from
reading several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books that
Paine was never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom Paine
[wrote] indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
I understood your question. But I wonder why you would ask that question
since in my post I didnt say anything that would suggest that Paine would
have any sympathy or lack of sympathy for atheism.
regards
Milan
.
|
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| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Nov 2006 04:01:06 PM |
|
|
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rjv9eFs17tdU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4553c136$0$14820$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhmc4FrcjsnU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:455395d8$0$14830$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4rhcl5Frf97aU1@mid.individual.net...
" Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45535bfa$0$14838$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond
this life."
"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious
duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to
make our fellow-creatures happy."
"I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe
otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to
mine." (Certain of our atheist brethren hereabouts who post their
admiration for Tom Paine could learn from this . . . as could our
Christian brethren)
"Nothing that is here said can apply, even with the most distant
disrespect, to the real character of Jesus Christ. He was a virtuous
and an amiable man. The morality that he preached and practised was
of the most benevolent kind; and thought similar systems of morality
had been preached by Confucius, and by some of the Greek
philosophers, many years before, by the Quakers since, and by many
good men in all ages, it has not been exceeded by any."
"That such a person as Jesus existed, and that he was crucified,
which was the mode of execution at that day, are historical relations
strictly within the limits of probability. He preached most
excellent morality and the equality of man; but he preached also
against the corruptions and avarice of the Jewish priests, and this
brought upon him the hatred and vengeance of the whole order of
priesthood."
From Tom Paine, "The Age of Reason, Part One," 1794
Other good quotes from Paine:
"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the
study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it
proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing
and admits of no conclusion"
"Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live
in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us
into eternity."
" What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the
Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and
the belief of this debauchery is called faith"
" The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and
brutalise mankind."
"The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense"
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the
greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their
origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
"[...] the Christian Mythologists, calling themselves the Christian
Church, have erected their fable, which, for absurdity and
extravagance, is not exceeded by anything that is to be found in the
mythology of the ancients. "
"Thomas did not believe the resurrection, and, as they say, would not
believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So
neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for
every other person, as for Thomas. "
regards
Milan
Yes indeed, I have read those quotes also. But when reads the entire
book, such is normally the case.
So how does anything Tom Paine indicate any sympathy with atheism?
I never said Paine was an atheist. He was a deist.
regards
Milan
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know from
reading several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books that
Paine was never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom Paine
[wrote] indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
I understood your question. But I wonder why you would ask that question
since in my post I didnt say anything that would suggest that Paine would
have any sympathy or lack of sympathy for atheism.
Why can't you just answer the question? How does anything Tom Paine wrote
indicate any sympathy with atheism?
regards
Milan
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
09 Nov 2006 08:51:29 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:28:32 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know from reading
several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books that Paine was
never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom Paine [wrote]
indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
How does that relate to the claim that the Constitution was influenced
by Christianity?
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his father, mother, wife, brothers, and sisters and even himself, he cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:26
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
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| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
10 Nov 2006 03:48:29 PM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:c8q7l2lufhsd2h158hh6jjl3fl8darfqqn@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:28:32 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know from
reading
several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books that Paine was
never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom Paine [wrote]
indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
How does that relate to the claim that the Constitution was influenced
by Christianity?
It doesn't. Why did you think it did?
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his father, mother, wife,
brothers, and sisters and even himself, he cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:26
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
10 Nov 2006 04:30:14 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 15:48:29 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:c8q7l2lufhsd2h158hh6jjl3fl8darfqqn@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:28:32 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know from
reading
several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books that Paine was
never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom Paine [wrote]
indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
How does that relate to the claim that the Constitution was influenced
by Christianity?
It doesn't. Why did you think it did?
I think it didn't.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"religion did for *****, what Stonehenge did for rocks"
- The World Famous Tink
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.
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| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
10 Nov 2006 12:24:42 PM |
|
|
Al Klein wrote:
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:28:32 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know from reading
several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books that Paine was
never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom Paine [wrote]
indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
How does that relate to the claim that the Constitution was influenced
by Christianity?
It's a false claim - it wasn't, except to the extent that the framers
wanted to protect people from religious coercion. And that experience
was based primarily on Christianity.
.
|
|
|
| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
10 Nov 2006 04:15:52 PM |
|
|
"cactus" <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote in message
news:Kt35h.11889$B31.7321@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
Al Klein wrote:
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:28:32 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know from
reading several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books that
Paine was never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom Paine
[wrote] indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
How does that relate to the claim that the Constitution was influenced
by Christianity?
It's a false claim - it wasn't,
John Adams disagreed with you. John Adams wrote that the "general
Principles of Christianity" were responsible for the assertion and
maintenance of American Independence. See his letter to Jefferson of June
28th, 1813, especially the third through the ninth paragraphs.
So does James Madison. Read Federalist X. Concentrate on the first three
pages. Where do you think Madison got that particular view of human nature
from if not from Christianity? Compare that with the enlightenment notions
of human nature in Rousseau or Voltaire or Diderot.
except to the extent that the framers wanted to protect people from
religious coercion.
Indeed they did. Except you left out the parts where they insisted that the
government will not be involved in what anyone chose to believe.
And that experience was based primarily on Christianity.
Why do you say that? Is yours a vague backhand claim that the "Founding
Fathers" had internalized the lessons of the religious wars of the
Reformation and determined not to repeat the mistakes of their predecessors?
If it is, congratulations! You have that part right. But that does not
mean the "Founding Fathers' had not internalized the moral precepts taught
by Jesus Christ and consciously consulted those precepts when they
formulated the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Or do you wish to argue that the "Founding Fathers" were consciously
cognizant exclusively of the abuses of religion?
I think that position is unwise because it can be so easily refuted by the
words of the "Founding Fathers."
.
|
|
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| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
19 Nov 2006 05:51:38 AM |
|
|
Tom P wrote:
"cactus" <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote in message
news:Kt35h.11889$B31.7321@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
Al Klein wrote:
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:28:32 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know from
reading several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books that
Paine was never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom Paine
[wrote] indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
How does that relate to the claim that the Constitution was influenced
by Christianity?
It's a false claim - it wasn't,
John Adams disagreed with you. John Adams wrote that the "general
Principles of Christianity" were responsible for the assertion and
maintenance of American Independence. See his letter to Jefferson of June
28th, 1813, especially the third through the ninth paragraphs.
So does James Madison. Read Federalist X. Concentrate on the first three
pages. Where do you think Madison got that particular view of human nature
from if not from Christianity? Compare that with the enlightenment notions
of human nature in Rousseau or Voltaire or Diderot.
except to the extent that the framers wanted to protect people from
religious coercion.
Indeed they did. Except you left out the parts where they insisted that the
government will not be involved in what anyone chose to believe.
And that experience was based primarily on Christianity.
Why do you say that? Is yours a vague backhand claim that the "Founding
Fathers" had internalized the lessons of the religious wars of the
Reformation and determined not to repeat the mistakes of their predecessors?
If it is, congratulations! You have that part right. But that does not
mean the "Founding Fathers' had not internalized the moral precepts taught
by Jesus Christ and consciously consulted those precepts when they
formulated the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Or do you wish to argue that the "Founding Fathers" were consciously
cognizant exclusively of the abuses of religion?
I think that position is unwise because it can be so easily refuted by the
words of the "Founding Fathers."
Native Americans weren't Christians.
Roots of American Democracy
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.education/msg/838ad3a89d4516ff
.
|
|
|
| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
12 Dec 2006 06:08:19 PM |
|
|
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163937098.399439.108210@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Tom P wrote:
"cactus" <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote in message
news:Kt35h.11889$B31.7321@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
Al Klein wrote:
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:28:32 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know from
reading several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books that
Paine was never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom
Paine
[wrote] indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
How does that relate to the claim that the Constitution was influenced
by Christianity?
It's a false claim - it wasn't,
John Adams disagreed with you. John Adams wrote that the "general
Principles of Christianity" were responsible for the assertion and
maintenance of American Independence. See his letter to Jefferson of
June
28th, 1813, especially the third through the ninth paragraphs.
So does James Madison. Read Federalist X. Concentrate on the first
three
pages. Where do you think Madison got that particular view of human
nature
from if not from Christianity? Compare that with the enlightenment
notions
of human nature in Rousseau or Voltaire or Diderot.
except to the extent that the framers wanted to protect people from
religious coercion.
Indeed they did. Except you left out the parts where they insisted that
the
government will not be involved in what anyone chose to believe.
And that experience was based primarily on Christianity.
Why do you say that? Is yours a vague backhand claim that the "Founding
Fathers" had internalized the lessons of the religious wars of the
Reformation and determined not to repeat the mistakes of their
predecessors?
If it is, congratulations! You have that part right. But that does not
mean the "Founding Fathers' had not internalized the moral precepts
taught
by Jesus Christ and consciously consulted those precepts when they
formulated the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Or do you wish to argue that the "Founding Fathers" were consciously
cognizant exclusively of the abuses of religion?
I think that position is unwise because it can be so easily refuted by
the
words of the "Founding Fathers."
Native Americans weren't Christians.
Roots of American Democracy
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.education/msg/838ad3a89d4516ff
What idiot wrote that conglomeration of lies and out of context quotes? Get
real . . . geez . . . That essay is pathetic. Was it someone's eighth grade
history project? Whoever wrote that nincompoopery should have had their
teacher grade and correct the sillyass errors it is riddled with before he
or she posted it.
Among the gross factual errors and lies are these.
Sparta did not control Athens in 490 B.C.. Sparta and Athens were allied
and fought the battle of Marathon against the Persians in 490.
Jefferson did not draft the constitution. Jefferson was in France and never
attended the convention of 1787.
John Adams did not write the sentiment appearing on that sillyass web page.
Go read the entire letter to Jefferson that out of context sentence is
purloined from.
Washington never professed to be a theist, a deist, or anything else.
And I can go on and on and on.
.
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| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
13 Dec 2006 02:25:22 AM |
|
|
Tom P wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163937098.399439.108210@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Tom P wrote:
"cactus" <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote in message
news:Kt35h.11889$B31.7321@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
Al Klein wrote:
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:28:32 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know from
reading several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books that
Paine was never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom
Paine
[wrote] indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
How does that relate to the claim that the Constitution was influenced
by Christianity?
It's a false claim - it wasn't,
John Adams disagreed with you. John Adams wrote that the "general
Principles of Christianity" were responsible for the assertion and
maintenance of American Independence. See his letter to Jefferson of
June
28th, 1813, especially the third through the ninth paragraphs.
So does James Madison. Read Federalist X. Concentrate on the first
three
pages. Where do you think Madison got that particular view of human
nature
from if not from Christianity? Compare that with the enlightenment
notions
of human nature in Rousseau or Voltaire or Diderot.
except to the extent that the framers wanted to protect people from
religious coercion.
Indeed they did. Except you left out the parts where they insisted that
the
government will not be involved in what anyone chose to believe.
And that experience was based primarily on Christianity.
Why do you say that? Is yours a vague backhand claim that the "Founding
Fathers" had internalized the lessons of the religious wars of the
Reformation and determined not to repeat the mistakes of their
predecessors?
If it is, congratulations! You have that part right. But that does not
mean the "Founding Fathers' had not internalized the moral precepts
taught
by Jesus Christ and consciously consulted those precepts when they
formulated the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Or do you wish to argue that the "Founding Fathers" were consciously
cognizant exclusively of the abuses of religion?
I think that position is unwise because it can be so easily refuted by
the
words of the "Founding Fathers."
Native Americans weren't Christians.
Roots of American Democracy
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.education/msg/838ad3a89d4516ff
What idiot wrote that conglomeration of lies and out of context quotes? Get
real . . . geez . . . That essay is pathetic. Was it someone's eighth grade
history project? Whoever wrote that nincompoopery should have had their
teacher grade and correct the sillyass errors it is riddled with before he
or she posted it.
Among the gross factual errors and lies are these.
Sparta did not control Athens in 490 B.C.. Sparta and Athens were allied
and fought the battle of Marathon against the Persians in 490.
Jefferson did not draft the constitution. Jefferson was in France and never
attended the convention of 1787.
True. But Madison was there. He knew about Jefferson's constitution for
Viginia.
John Adams did not write the sentiment appearing on that sillyass web page.
Go read the entire letter to Jefferson that out of context sentence is
purloined from.
Washington never professed to be a theist, a deist, or anything else.
"Though the cool deism of Washington can hardly be distinguished in
broad outline from that of Jefferson, the public reaction to the two
men and their religious views differed sharply. Only Jefferson was
denounced as the 'howling atheist,' never Washington. Only Jefferson
was attacked as the enemy of the churches and the clergy, never
Washington. A curious public probed and punches Adams, Franklin and
Jefferson regarding their Christian convictions, but never Washington."
Faith of Our Fathers, Religion and the New Nation. Edwin S. Gaustad,
Harper & Row, (1987) pp 77
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
supreme being as his father in the womb of a Virgin Mary, will be
classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of
Jupiter.... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of
thought in these United States will do away [with] all this artificial
scaffolding. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823, as
quoted by E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed.,
Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's
Sons, 1986, p. 287.)
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be
one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of
blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to his young nephew Peter
Carr, August 10, 1787. From Adrienne Koch, ed., The American
Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free
Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, pp. 320-321.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html
America's Real Religion
http://www.sunnetworks.net/~ggarman/index.html
Some of The First Official Meanings Assigned to The Establishment
Clause
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/madvetos.htm
While James Madison was president of the United States (1809-1817) He
vetoed three bills sent to him by Congress to sign into law. President
Madison vetoed the bills because, in his opinion, they violated the
Establishment clause.
The case for separation of church and state.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/basicidx.htm
And I can go on and on and on.
If you want to sacrifice your life and money for Christian fascism then
so be it. It's pretty stupid.
.
|
|
|
| User: " Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Tom Paine on Faith and Jesus Christ |
16 Dec 2006 03:28:25 PM |
|
|
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1165998322.505286.26510@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom P wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163937098.399439.108210@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Tom P wrote:
"cactus" <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote in message
news:Kt35h.11889$B31.7321@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
Al Klein wrote:
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:28:32 -0600, " Tom P" <th_o_m_as_p@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't ask whether you thought Paine was an atheist. I know
from
reading several of his pamphlets, broadsides, letters, and books
that
Paine was never an atheist. I asked: "So how does anything Tom
Paine
[wrote] indicate any sympathy with atheism?"
How does that relate to the claim that the Constitution was
influenced
by Christianity?
It's a false claim - it wasn't,
John Adams disagreed with you. John Adams wrote that the "general
Principles of Christianity" were responsible for the assertion and
maintenance of American Independence. See his letter to Jefferson of
June
28th, 1813, especially the third through the ninth paragraphs.
So does James Madison. Read Federalist X. Concentrate on the first
three
pages. Where do you think Madison got that particular view of human
nature
from if not from Christianity? Compare that with the enlightenment
notions
of human nature in Rousseau or Voltaire or Diderot.
except to the extent that the framers wanted to protect people from
religious coercion.
Indeed they did. Except you left out the parts where they insisted
that
the
government will not be involved in what anyone chose to believe.
And that experience was based primarily on Christianity.
Why do you say that? Is yours a vague backhand claim that the
"Founding
Fathers" had internalized the lessons of the religious wars of the
Reformation and determined not to repeat the mistakes of their
predecessors?
If it is, congratulations! You have that part right. But that does
not
mean the "Founding Fathers' had not internalized the moral precepts
taught
by Jesus Christ and consciously consulted those precepts when they
formulated the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Or do you wish to argue that the "Founding Fathers" were consciously
cognizant exclusively of the abuses of religion?
I think that position is unwise because it can be so easily refuted by
the
words of the "Founding Fathers."
Native Americans weren't Christians.
Roots of American Democracy
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.education/msg/838ad3a89d4516ff
What idiot wrote that conglomeration of lies and out of context quotes?
Get
real . . . geez . . . That essay is pathetic. Was it someone's eighth
grade
history project? Whoever wrote that nincompoopery should have had their
teacher grade and correct the sillyass errors it is riddled with before
he
or she posted it.
Among the gross factual errors and lies are these.
Sparta did not control Athens in 490 B.C.. Sparta and Athens were allied
and fought the battle of Marathon against the Persians in 490.
No comment, Maff?
Jefferson did not draft the constitution. Jefferson was in France and
never
attended the convention of 1787.
True. But Madison was there. He knew about Jefferson's constitution for
Viginia.
Do you really think so? Personally, I think Madison more than merely "knew
about Jefferson's constitution for Viginia." Have you actually ever taken
the time to read a biography of Madison or Jefferson? (A book, not sillyass
wikipedia.com or some other drivel on some atheist web page.) Have you ever
read their letters to one another? They are published in a multi-volume set
titled "The Republic of Letters." I am certain your public library can
obtain copies for you to study at no cost.
The claim by the atheist dolt was and is that Jefferson drafted the
Constitution. That claim by the atheist dolt and liar is false. It is
typical atheist use net nincompoopery. Why do you defend nincompoopery and
lies? Is it because they were produced by one of your atheist fellow
travelers? If so, you should choose the company you keep with more
discernment.
John Adams did not write the sentiment appearing on that sillyass web
page.
Go read the entire letter to Jefferson that out of context sentence is
purloined from.
Washington never professed to be a theist, a deist, or anything else.
"Though the cool deism of Washington can hardly be distinguished in
broad outline from that of Jefferson, the public reaction to the two
men and their religious views differed sharply. Only Jefferson was
denounced as the 'howling atheist,' never Washington. Only Jefferson
was attacked as the enemy of the churches and the clergy, never
Washington. A curious public probed and punches Adams, Franklin and
Jefferson regarding their Christian convictions, but never Washington."
Faith of Our Fathers, Religion and the New Nation. Edwin S. Gaustad,
Harper & Row, (1987) pp 77
So what? Some guy who may or may not be qualified to render an opinion and
may or may not actually know Washington's biography thinks Washington was a
deist. What do you think that proves?
Your quote does not negate or disprove the fact that Washington carefully
avoided professing publicly his religious preference. Why? Because your
quote contains not a single word from George Washington's mouth or pen.
Keep trying though, and do let us know when you find one.
I stand by my comment. Only an accurate quote from Washington in which
Washington himself professed a religious preference can negate or disprove
my comment. Got one? No? Then run along . . .
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
supreme being as his father in the womb of a Virgin Mary, will be
classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of
Jupiter.... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of
thought in these United States will do away [with] all this artificial
scaffolding. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823, as
quoted by E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed.,
Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's
Sons, 1986, p. 287.)
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html
Your sources misquoted this letter. There should be no ellipsis between
"Jupiter" and "But." "Jupiter" is the last word ending one sentence and
"But" is the first word of the next sentence and there is no paragraph
break. And the sentence does not end with "scaffolding." But it continues:
" . . . scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines
of this
the most venerated reformer of human errors." Oops, Jefferson rather
approved of Jesus, as is obvious here. So why did the atheist nincompoops
you misquoted delete the final clause? Could it be because that final
clause changes the meaning of the sentence?
So, since the atheist nincompoops at infidels.org cannot even accurately
copy a passage from a letter in modern English, why do you trust them to get
anything else right?
You atheists should read the entire letter sometime. Or even the entire
paragraph that quote is extracted from. I will even copy it for you here.
The text is taken from Lester J. Capon, ed., "The Adams-Jefferson Letters:
The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John
Adams," Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1987, pages
593-94, but the entire letter is on pages 591-94. This quote you produced
is from the second to last paragraph of this long letter. In the preceding
paragraph, Jefferson ended by quoting from the Gospel of John, 1:1-4, in
Greek.
"Which truly translated means 'in the beginning God existed, and reason (or
mind) was with God, and that mind was God. This was in the beginning with
God. All things were created by it, and without it was made not one thing
which was made'. Yet this text so plainly dictating the doctrine of Jesus
that the world was created by the supreme, intelligent being, has been
perverted by modern Christians to build up a second person of their
tritheism by a mistranslation of the word "logos" (in Greek in Jefferson's
letter). One of it's legitimate meanings indeed is 'a word.' But, in that
sense, it makes an unmeaning jargon: while the other meaning 'reason',
equally legitimate, explains rationally the eternal preexistence of God, and
his creation of the world. Knowing how incomprehensible it was that 'a
word,' the mere action or articulation of the voice and organs of speech
could create a world, they undertake to make of this articulation a second
preexisting being, and ascribe to him, and not to God, the creation of the
universe. The Atheist here plumes himself on the uselessness of such a
God, and the simpler hypothesis of a self-existent universe. The truth is
that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those
calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the
structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any
foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical
generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a
virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the
brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom
of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial
scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this
the most venerated reformer of human errors."
The following and last paragraph of the letter is also instructive because
it illustrates once again Jefferson's beliefs in the Christian God and life
after death in paradise in the company of old friends, so I offer it here.
"So much for your quotation of Calvin's "mon dieu! jusqu'a quand" in which,
when addressed to the God of Jesus, and our God, I join you cordially, and
await his time and will with more readiness than reluctance. May we meet
there again, in Congress, with our antient Colleagues, and receive with them
the seal of approbation "Well done, good and faithful servants."
Did you notice Jefferson's reference to ". . . the God of Jesus, and our
God"?
That is, the God of Jefferson and Adams who was the Judeo-Christian God of
the Old and New Testaments. Keep that in mind when you encounter posts on
use net and on atheist web sites that claim the God of the 18th century
American Deists was not the Judeo-Christian God. For emphasis, I repeat,
the God of Jefferson and Adams was the Judeo-Christian God. We know that
because Jefferson and Adams (in many places) wrote that their God was the
God of Jesus. All you atheists read that again and again until it
penetrates your meager intellects and sticks there. This includes you,
Maff.
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be
one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of
blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to his young nephew Peter
Carr, August 10, 1787. From Adrienne Koch, ed., The American
Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free
Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, pp. 320-321.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html
Holy crap, Maff! Don't you ever check your sources for accuracy? Well, you
should. Either you or the atheist web site or the editor Koch mangled that
quotation. But have no fear, I have the full text of the letter and will
copy it accurately here. Read on.
The real quote is: "Question with boldness even the existence of a god (NOT
"God"); because if there be one, he (not "He") must approve [of] the homage
of reason rather than that of blindfolded fear." The differences are
significant. Why can't you atheists get something so simple right?
What do you think one stray and mangled quote from Jefferson on religion
means? I have read hundreds of Jefferson's letters and his other writings.
What point are you trying to make with that quotation? Even presuming you
get it right, which you and your sources did not.
What Jefferson is echoing there is Aquinas and a whole bunch of other
Christian philosophers, and the Jewish philosopher Maimonides, who taught
that faith in God is founded in reason. And you atheists didn't believe me
when I said the Founding Fathers were influenced by Christianity. Here is
even more proof of how mistaken that silly atheist notion is.
I just so enjoy it when atheists quote letters by the Founders of the
American Republic. I can safely presume that the atheists (I include you
here, Maff) have not read the whole letter, or even the whole paragraph the
quote is removed from, because the atheist web sites normally pick and
choose most carefully the clauses and sentences so that only words that
support the atheist position appear on atheist web sites. Heaven forbid you
atheists should
ever go to the trouble of actually posting or reading an entire paragraph or
letter or essay you quote from. But then quoting entire passages so that
the entire context is known and evident undermines atheism and some of the
nutty notions atheists have concerning the 18th century. And since the
founders of the American republic were all believers in the Judeo-Christian
God and took their God and their religion most seriously, their thoughts on
religion are universally destructive to the atheist position that
Christianity had no influence or so little influence on the founding of the
American Republic that it doesn't matter. Now I will attempt to chop you
off at the knees, Maff, by the simple expedient of quoting great swathes of
the letter you foolishly introduced. And which you introduced when you did
not know the full contents of this letter by Jefferson. That was stupid of
you, Maff. And I don't believe you are stupid, Maff, just uninformed,
woefully uninformed.
Have you ever read the whole letter? Bet you haven't, or you would likely
not have introduced it, because in it Jefferson attacked certain doctrines,
principles, and bits of ideology that use net atheists hold dear. But I
have read the letter. The text is in a book I happen to have in front of
me,
opened to page 86. And this book is titled "Jefferson & Madison on
Separation of Church and State: Writings on Religion and Secularism," ed.
L. Brenner, Fort Lee, NJ: Barricade Books, 2004. The letter from Jefferson
to Carr appears on pages 86-88. I am going to quote whole paragraphs, in an
effort to expose you to more of Jefferson than you have ever read before.
So read carefully and you just might gain some insight into the character of
Thomas Jefferson, and you may even be inspired to go and read much more of
Jefferson's writing. Jefferson is worth the time and effort to read, albeit
he held atheism and atheists in contempt so you may not appreciate all of
his work. The section above the one you quote from reads thus:
"3. Moral Philosophy: I think it lost time to attend lectures in this
branch.
He who made us would have been a pitiful bungler if he had made the rules of
our moral conduct a matter of science. For one man of science, there are
thousands who are not. What would have become of them? Man was destined
for society. His morality therefore was to be formed to this object. He
was endowed with a sense of right & wrong relative to this. This sense is
as much a part of his nature as the sense of hearing, seeing, feeling; it is
the true foundation of morality, & not the "to Xalon" [Greek in original]
truth, &c. as fanciful writers have imagined. The moral sense, or
conscience, is as much a part of man as his leg or arm. It is given to all
human beings in a stronger or weaker degree, as force of members is given
them in a greater or less degree. It may be strengthened by exercise, as
may any particular limb of the body. This sense is submitted indeed in some
degree to the guidance of reason; but it is a small stock which is required
for this: even a less one than what we ca | | | | | | | | | | | |
