Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Bible John"
Date:	01 Aug 2006 01:46:54 AM
Object:	Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?

I heard that you hold to this movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity
I do not know much about this movement, but I am going to check out some of
my trusted apologetics websites to find some info on this movement, as
Wikepedia is just a object source. My own web ministry only has a small
section on Apologetics, because Biblical education is the focus at CERM, so
let me check out what some Apologetics websites have to say.
From some Apologetics websites
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/identity.html
http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm
CARM is CERM's most trusted Apologetics web ministry. This is what CARM has
to say about this movement Tommy.
Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.
--
Vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 2006 election!
http://www.joinarnold.com
The Bible calls sinners to Repentance (LK 5:32) and God's people to Holiness
(Rom 12:2).
www.cerm.info
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User: "127.0.0.1"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	01 Aug 2006 04:09:16 PM

Bible John wrote:

I heard that you hold to this movement

Hi John! This isn't true, I've never been associated with any of their
Churches..
For the most part I follow the teachings of Martin Luther. I consider him to
be my minister of the bible, not these preachers that are in the Lutheran
church today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

I do not know much about this movement, but I am going to check out some
of my trusted apologetics websites to find some info on this movement, as
Wikepedia is just a object source. My own web ministry only has a small
section on Apologetics, because Biblical education is the focus at CERM,
so let me check out what some Apologetics websites have to say.

From some Apologetics websites

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/identity.html
http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm

CARM is CERM's most trusted Apologetics web ministry. This is what CARM
has to say about this movement Tommy.

Not sure about CERM, don't no anything about them. However, if you want to
know what C.I. is about you can read their beliefs here in their own words.
http://www.christianidentity.net/

Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.

As for my perceived Anti-Semitism - I've looked into the Jews Holiest
book "The Babylonian Talmud" Lets just say, I see them the same way they
see Gentiles.
.

User: "Bible Bob"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	01 Aug 2006 05:08:35 PM

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:09:16 -0400, "127.0.0.1" <NoSpam@Nospam.com>
wrote:

Bible John wrote:

I heard that you hold to this movement

Hi John! This isn't true, I've never been associated with any of their
Churches..

For the most part I follow the teachings of Martin Luther. I consider him to
be my minister of the bible, not these preachers that are in the Lutheran
church today.

Not sure about CERM, don't no anything about them. However, if you want to
know what C.I. is about you can read their beliefs here in their own words.

Not sure about CERM? CERM is John. Now ya dun it. U in truble now.

http://www.christianidentity.net/

As for my perceived Anti-Semitism - I've looked into the Jews Holiest
book "The Babylonian Talmud" Lets just say, I see them the same way they
see Gentiles.

......
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
.

User: "Bible John"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	01 Aug 2006 11:22:45 PM

Thanks Tommie for clearing things up with me.
About CERM this is my web ministry that I direct.
www.cerm.info
"127.0.0.1" <NoSpam@Nospam.com> wrote in message
news:5142092.Ray2cJJCPM@OpenBSD...

Bible John wrote:

I heard that you hold to this movement

Hi John! This isn't true, I've never been associated with any of their
Churches..

For the most part I follow the teachings of Martin Luther. I consider him
to
be my minister of the bible, not these preachers that are in the Lutheran
church today.

Not sure about CERM, don't no anything about them. However, if you want to
know what C.I. is about you can read their beliefs here in their own
words.
http://www.christianidentity.net/

Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is
none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.

As for my perceived Anti-Semitism - I've looked into the Jews Holiest
book "The Babylonian Talmud" Lets just say, I see them the same way they
see Gentiles.

User: "Bree"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	02 Aug 2006 12:59:18 AM

An article from a couple of years ago
Christian Identity: a Christian Response
Radical racist groups, such as the Ku Klux Klan and White Aryan
Resistance, live on the fringes of society, inhabiting a dark underworld
that few know about and fewer still understand. Those that do not know
anything about them tend to equate these groups with violent political
action connected to outdated ideologies. What few know, however, is that
these groups are increasingly motivated to action by the religious and
theological teachings of a movement called Christian Identity. This
movement, which purports to reveal the "true" identity of the white race
as the chosen people of God, remains largely unstudied and misunderstood;
this has left any systemized attempt to refute its teachings ill-prepared
and under-equipped. This paper will trace Christian Identity's roots,
outline its basic theology, and show the potential for danger the group
poses to the world. It will end with a few general guidelines on how the
Christian Church can respond to this threat in the spirit of the Gospel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
History
The roots of the Identity movement reach back into the late 18th century
to an obscure ideology call British-Israelism. The central tenant of this
movement began with Richard Brothers, a retired British navalofficer who
claimed to be receiving millenarian visions in 1791. By 1793 he was
convinced that it was his divine mission to lead the Jewish people back to
the Holy Land. Claiming to be a descendant of the house of David, Brothers
also claimed that the vast majority of the world's Jews were, in fact,
dispersed and hidden through the European peoples, ignorant of their
biblical identity (Barkun 1994, 6).
This idea of a "hidden" Israel, dispersed among the people of Europe,
becomes the founding principle of British-Israelism, setting it apart from
many of its contemporary occult theologies. Brothers felt that the British
people were especially connected to the biblical Israel and that God had
special designs for them. He gathered a small following, but was unable to
organize a structured group. His behavior becoming increasingly erratic
and eccentric, Brothers was declared legally insane and institutionalized
from 1795 until 1806, dying some 18 years later a destitute man (Barkun
1994, 6).
It was not until 1840, with the release of John Wilson's Lectures on Our
Israelitish Origin, that the British-Israelism movement began to gain
momentum. Bringing British- Israelism to a large middle-class audience,
Wilson attempted to provide some empirical evidence for his claims of
English succession to Israel. One of his favorite techniques was to search
for English and Hebrew words that sound the same (Barkun 1994, 7). Thus,
British- Israelists (and later, Identity preachers) claim that the word
"English" is a corruption of the Hebrew an ("one"), gael ("stammer"), and
ish ("man"); an Englishman is thus "a stammering man.1" They also argue
that the name Britannia comes from the Phoenician water god, Barati, and
that "Scot" is a corruption of Gad2. Such arguments disregard the opinions
of linguists, who argue that the English language derives from the
Germanic family and has no Semitic influence to speak of (Aho 1990,
107-108).
Wilson, and British-Israelism in general, never denied that the modern-day
Jews were not descendants of the biblical people. However, he did not
think that they held as high a status because they were descendant from
the southern kingdom of Judah, inheriting only those divine promises given
to Judah. The European peoples, on the other hand, were descended from the
scattered tribes of Israel, the northern kingdom which was destroyed by
the Assyrian conquest of 721 BCE, and to which the majority of biblical
promises had been made (Barkun 1994, 7).
According to Identity beliefs, after the Assyrian conquest the ten tribes
were scattered, gradually making their way north and settling in what is
now Britain (see appendix one). They became the Anglo-Saxon people and the
progenitors of all white peoples. The truth, of course, is that the ten
tribes of the northern kingdom were overrun by the Assyrian army, the
religious leaders and the wealthy deported. National and ethnic identities
were blurred as the Assyrians resettled the area, and the Israelites were
absorbed into the Assyrian empire (Alstr�m 1993, 670, 676-677).
Wilson was also skeptical about the modern Jew's claims to pure descent
from the biblical people. Wilson believed that centuries of intermarriage
had diluted the biblical bloodline, eroding the spiritual center of the
Jewish people (though he never made such claims for European peoples).
Because of this impure lineage, modern Jews are no longer a part of God's
covenant; they have inherited the "curse of the Gentiles," which may only
be lifted with the acceptance of Jesus Christ (Barkun 1994, 7-8).
The beginning of the Identity movement in the United States is often
traced to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a series of articles
published under the eye of Henry Ford in his hometown newspaper. Collected
under the title The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem in the
1920s, the Protocols purported to expose a series of Jewish plots such as
the Russian Revolution and Communism, Freemasonry, control of the world's
banks and the usury system, and trade unions. The author of the articles,
William Cameron, founded the Anglo- Saxon Federation of American in 1928,
publishing Destiny magazine as a British-Israelist publication. This
became the premier British-Israelist periodical in the country, with a
readership comprised of some of the top racist and anti-Semitic figures of
the time (Zeskind 1986, 12-13).
Figures such as Wesley Swift and Bertram Comparet systematized the
emerging Identity theology and introduced it to the rising white
supremacist movement, founding such organizations as the Church of Jesus
Christ--Christian and the Christian Defense League in the middle of the
20th century. The Identity movement has since spread, producing such
notable preachers as Richard Butler of the Aryan Nations, Bill Gale and
Jim Wickstrom of Posse Comitatus, and Pete Peters, one of Identity's
"rising stars" (Zeskind 1986, 10, 12-13).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theology
Since the first attempts at a systematic Identity theology, the movement
has elaborated on British-Israelism and allowed new theories to take root.
However, the most distinctive feature of Identity theology remains its
decidedly racial character; indeed, race is the normative feature of
Identity theology. Every theological category employed by Identity
preachers passes through their racial theories.
For instance, early Identity members struggled with traditional Christian
anthropology; specifically, they wondered how both blacks and whites could
be descendants of the same original human. Drawing upon Victorian science,
it seemed clear that, for instance, blacks and whites display different
physical characteristics, making the idea of a common ancestor unlikely.
Drawing on the work of Isaac de la Peyr�re, a 17th century Calvinist who
advocated the idea of two creations (one for Gentiles, the second for the
creation of Adam) and of Dominick M'Causland, a 19th century Englishman
who wrote Adam and the Adamite, British-Israelism had developed a
historical theology of creation based upon the presupposition that all
nonwhites were descendant from a sub-human, pre-Adamic species. Such a
development in theological thought also clears up certain questions that
arise from the biblical text. For instance, when faced with the dilemma of
where Cain's wife came from, Identity theology asserts that she was of one
of the pre-Adamic races (Barkun 1994, 154).
The corollary to this belief, of course, is that Adam represents the
creation of the white race. As evidence of this, Identity preachers trace
the etymology of the Hebrew word adam back to a stem meaning "ruddy" or
"flush." Their logic is that, because only white people are capable of
blushing, the meaning of adam clearly links Adam with only the white race3
(Christian... 7).
Identity theology bolsters this dualistic view of human origin by claiming
that God wishes the two races to be kept separate; Identity thought
clearly promotes segregation as a divine command. For proof, Identity
churches look to the sixth chapter of Genesis and the legend of the "sons
of God" marrying the "daughters of man." In Identity interpretations of
this story, the sons of God are alternately painted as either the nonwhite
pre-Adamites or as pure- blooded whites, with the daughters of men
corresponding to either Adamite women or women of mixed race who marry the
Adamite men illicitly (Barkun 1994, 158-159).
In either case, it is the sin of race-mixing which leads directly to the
Flood. Noah alone is spared, for he was "blameless in his generation" (Gen
6:10). In Identity thought, however, this means not that Noah was a moral
or upstanding person, but that he alone could trace his lineage back to
the first white man, Adam. The race-mixing of the other Adamic descendants
condemned them to death, necessitating that God "purify" the bloodline.
Many Identity theorists also propose that the Flood was a localized, not a
universal, event; in this way the pre-Adamic races continued upon the
earth to the present day (Barkun 1994, 158-159, 164).
Following this logic through, Identity theology develops a soteriology
which regards race as the determining factor of salvation. Re-interpreting
the biblical text, the struggle of the ancient Hebrews is not seen as an
attempt to cling to a religious identity, but a racial identity. Religion
and race become inseparable, and similarities in religion become the basis
on which to assume similarities in race. For instance, C.G. Campbell
argued that Christianity and Zoroastrianism were similar because they were
developed by similar racial groups (Zesking 1996, 18-19).
This racial theory serves to connect present day Anglo-Saxons to biblical
prophecies. Appealing to the Hebrew prophets, Identity theology claims
that the centuries between the fall of the northern kingdom and the time
that Christianity spread across Europe were pre-ordained as a time of
"lost identity." The "re-discovery" of the true nature of the ancient
Israelites, and their modern descendants, is seen as the key to
understanding biblical prophesy and current events. This people will
necessarily play a vital role in establishing God's kingdom on earth
(Zeskind 1984, 17-19).
Because of its fervent belief in Anglo-Saxons as the only descendants of
biblical Israel, Identity theology has had to account for the modern-day
Jews and their heritage. The Christian Identity Church of Harrison,
Arkansas, explains the common Identity belief in terse and vivid language
in its Doctrinal Statement of Beliefs:
We believe in an existing being knows as the Devil or Satan and called the
Serpent, who has a literal "seed" or posterity in the earth commonly
called Jews today. These children of Satan through Cain are a race of
vipers, anti-Christs who have throughout history always been a curse to
true Israel, the Church of God, because of a natural enmity between the
two races, because they do the works of their father the Devil... The
ultimate end of this evil race whose hands bear the blood of our Savior
and all the righteous slain upon the earth, is Divine judgement
(Christian... 6-7).
The development of this "seedline" theory began with the pre-Adamic theory
of creation held by British-Israelism. However, by the 1960s, a
distinctive history of the Jewish bloodline had emerged, first
systematized by Conrod Gaard. Gaard believed that the biblical serpent was
a member of one of the pre-Adamic races, a race in eternal struggle with
the "pure seed" of Adam. Gaard was less interested in Cain's actual
parentage (since he took a pre-Adamic wife and in that way betrayed his
race) that his is in Cain's relationship with Satan. According to Gaard,
Cain founded the first world government, a kingdom devoted to carrying out
the work of the Devil on earth. This kingdom continues into the modern day
and includes Communist Russia and China, the Illuminati, as well as all
attempts at a one world government (Barkun 1994, 178).
Identity thinkers extrapolated this idea over the years, attempting to
provide biblical foundations to the seedline theory based on the belief
that the sin of Eve was sexual union with the serpent. Jarah B. Crawford,
a former minister in the Assembly of God church and often considered the
foremost Identity interpreter of the Bible, believes that all but five
books of the Bible have a decidedly racial character to them and provide
the basis for segregation and the seedline theory. In truth, however, much
of Crawford's writing is merely a rehashing of previous Identity materials
on the subject; Crawford simply lifts Scriptural passages to bolster his
position (Barkun 1994, 190).
The belief of the special place of the Anglo-Saxons in the coming kingdom
is also tied to Identity theology's regard for the United States and Great
Britain. Equating these two nations with Manasseh and Ephraim, Identity
theology holds that each nation has inherited the blessings of the two
sons of Joseph to be "a nation" and "a company of nations" (Gen 48: 19)4.
Together, the birthright of these two nations is to be "the wealthiest,
most powerful nations on earth," to "colonize the world." The United
States is often equated with the new Promised Land, where God "will
assemble the outcasts of Israel" (Isa 11: 12), the prosperity of the
United States seen as proof of Identity's convictions (Zeskind 1986, 19).
Christian Identity adherents believe that America was divinely established
as a Christian Republic. This is a nuanced but important component to
Identity political theory, because in a republic, it is the individual who
is sovereign, not the majority as in a democracy. Many of Identity's
political agendas, such as tax rebellion, common law, the role of the
judicial branch, and the role of law enforcement, stem directly from this
belief in the rights of the individual (Zeskind 1986, 36-37). Pointing to
various anti-Semitic writings, Identity adherents also point out that the
Founding Fathers took the "Jewish threat" very seriously (Eastern...).
However, they also believe that this divinely founded government has been
compromised by the Jewish conspiracy; the ZOG (Zionist Occupied
Government) is responsible for the decline of American society because it
has fallen into non-Christian hands. They are especially concerned about
the separation of Church and state, which they describe as a Jewish plot
intended to undermine Christian values. They believe that the proper place
of the government is under the auspices of the Church. As Bill Gale, a
noted Identity preacher, wrote,
the 'Church' is comprised of the many membered body of Jesus Christ... Is
our Christian Constitutional Republic a government "of the people by the
people for the people [sic]." If so, then are not the people the
government. Government is then the business of the Church, since the
Church and the People are synonymous... The government is nothing but an
expansion of the Christian Church" (quoted in Zeskind 1986 25, 36).
Because of these dual views of the American government, two contradictory
tendencies then arise in Identity theory concerning the exact relationship
between God, government, and "the people" (identified solely as
Anglo-Saxon Christians). First, Identity theology states that the people
cannot serve both God and human beings. Because the government is the
province of humans, it must be subjugated to obedience of God. On the
other hand, Identity theology also claims that there should be no conflict
between obedience to God and obedience to the government. The laws of the
country should reflect God's law; therefore, as the country has slowly
shifted toward democratic, rather than republican form ofgovernment, it
has erred against God's law and must be corrected (Zeskind 1986, 36-37).
Modern Christian Identity ideology is often associated with Protestant
Fundamentalism because of their shared interest in eschatology and
End-Time scenarios; this is not always far from the truth. Both promote a
dispensationalist view of history. That is, they believe in a specific
ordering of time decreed by divine will. Each of these periods in history
begins with a divine revelation and ends with a divine judgement. Both the
Christian Right and the Identity movement also tend to be
Pre-millennialists. They believe that, before the Second Coming, there
will be a period of Tribulation in which the world will be overtaken by
evil, after which Christ will return to rule in peace for a thousand years
(Zeskind 1986, 22).
However, there are sharp distinctions between Identity beliefs and those
of the traditional Christian Right. For instance, Identity churches hold
no belief in the Rapture, the gathering of the elect before the
Tribulation. The Identity movement holds that the Rapture is a satanic
plot meant to lull Christians into a sense of complacency and false
security by claiming that the elect will have no part to play in--indeed,
will be totally removed from--the Tribulation (Minges 1995, 92).
Instead, Identity members claim that the elect will remain on Earth during
the Tribulation to fight the agents of Satan and the sin they bring into
the world. Chosen on the basis of race, these elect will be the front line
soldiers of the End Times, charged by God to warn their fellow Christians
of the coming trials and to act swiftly to "overcome" evil (Zeskind 1984,
24). Identity thought sees the signs of this coming apocalyptic conflict
everywhere. One tract from the Covenant, Sword, and Arm of the Lord
describes witches "sexually mutilating people," "sodomite homosexuals
waiting in their lusts to rape," "negro beasts who eat the flesh of men,"
and "seed of Satan Jews sacrificing people in darkness" (quoted in Minges
1995, 93).
Another common theme in Identity literature is that the End Times are upon
us because of Israel's (that is, the white race's) disobedience to the
covenant. The sins committed by God's race include miscegenation,
homosexuality, abortion, promiscuity, and fornication. The divine
punishments enacted upon Israel for these sins include "the plague of
AIDS," sometimes called Acquired Immoral Deadly Sin, "sickness, disease,
loss of jobs, drought, floods, venereal disease, farm foreclosures,
business bankruptcies, government regulations, licenses, [and] excessive
taxation" (Gayman).
Regardless, Identity believers see in current events the unfolding of the
End Times, the fulfillment of biblical prophesy. Social security numbers
and diver's licenses are seen as the "Mark of the Beast" (Rev 4:19).
Members have begun to stockpile food, water, and supplies for the coming
Armageddon. Many groups, such as the Aryan nations, believe that Satan is
attacking them directly through the government. Conflicts arise, and
Identity believers are forced to translate their beliefs into action
(Zeskind 1986, 24-25).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Action
Though not always in the public eye, this action does arise, often in
violent ways. One Identity group which has risen into the public eye
because of its initiatives is the Order (known to its members as Bruders
Schweigen, or the Silent Brotherhood). Founded by Robert Matthews in the
fall of 1983, the Order embarked on a series of robberies, counterfeiting
schemes and murder until Matthews was killed in a shootout with police in
December of 1984 (Barkun 1994, 228).
The Order was patterned after a paramilitary group in the novel The Turner
Diaries. First published in serial form between 1975 and 1978, The Turner
Diaries recounts the seizure of southern California by a white power group
calling itself the Organization. The novel's hero, Earl Turner, joins the
group by expelling nonwhites from their area of control and fighting "the
System" with nuclear arms stolen from Air Force bases. Though not an
Identity text per se, the novel does depict Turner's initiation in the
Order, the Organization's inner circle, during which Turner describes a
feeling of being "born again," and of realizing that "we are truly
instruments of God in the fulfillment of His Grand Design," thus appealing
to a wide audience of Identity sympathizers (quoted in Barkun 1994,
226-227).
The Order was finally brought to the public's attention during a wave of
violent crime in 1984. In July of that year members of the Order pulled
off a daring hijacking of an armored car, recovering $3.8 million. This
money was contributed to various right-wing causes and used to fund the
Order. However, the Order's most notorious act of violence was the murder
of radio talk-show host Alan Berg in December of 1984. Known for baiting
extremists on his Denver program, the Jewish Berg may have been a
last-minute substitution for Morris Dee, the founder of the Southern
Poverty Law Center. The murder led to a massive manhunt, ending in
Matthews' death and the apprehension of other Order members (Barkun
1994228).
Identity theology potential for violence is not only direct to those
outside of Identity's grasp. Because of their cult-like structure, often
centered around a single charismatic individual, as well as its emphatic
commitment to End Time theories, Identity groups have a large potential
for internal violence. In some Identity churches, members of Identity
groups are encouraged to see themselves as "the chosen few," the perfect
specimens of humanity against the "other." When members fail to live up to
these idealized expectations, they must be purified of their sin or
expelled from the group (Young 1990, 156-157).
In at least one instance the leaders of an Identity church actually
murdered a fellow Identity member for allegedly having "bad thoughts" and
poisoning a turkey. Over the course of three days the victim was, among
other atrocities, sodomized with a shovel handle, whipped, and had his
fingertips shot off. On the third day he was kicked and beaten to death by
the church' elder and his brother. He dead body was again shot and placed
in a grave. The two church leaders were later convicted of murder (Young
1990, 150-151, 155-156).
Not all Identity groups promote such violence. Indeed, following Robert
Matthew's death, Dan Gayman, pastor of the Church of Israel in Schell
City, Missouri, issued a strong dissent against the tactics of groups such
as the Order, saying,
This body of Christian believers [does] not believe in and would not
condone crimes including counterfeiting, armed robbery, murder of law
officers, and a variety of other crimes spawned by the ORDER and openly
condoned and sometimes encouraged by a variety of militant
organizations... No single group in post World War II history has done so
much to discredit, malign, and retard the growth of the Gospel of the
Kingdom in North America (quoted in Barkun 1994, 232)5.
Many of these more peaceful Identity groups are content to remain isolated
from society, providing services for its members. Working out of what H.
Richard Niebuhr calls a stance of "Christ against culture," such groups
remove themselves from the context of the larger society to insulate
themselves from the "satanic" influences that have corrupted the world
(Niebuhr 1956, 45). Consequently, they must develop ways of remaining at
least partially self-sufficient. For instance, the Church of Israel in
Schell City provides a wide variety of services for its members, including
a home schooling ministry, health ministry, home birthing assistance, and
seminars on "building the Christian family" (Gayman 1988, 2). However,
these do groups to retain their racist theologies, even if they are not
among the more radical Identity groups.
Despite this tendency to eschew society, an increasing number of groups
associated with Identity theology have begun to branch out, actively
recruiting new members. Ironically, one of their greatest tools in
evangelism is their eschatological views. Because they are so similar to
the views of many Christian Fundamentalists, and do not reveal any of
Identity's racist or anti- Semitic teachings, they have been an easy point
of entry for Identity preachers seeking a larger audience. Quoting chapter
and verse, their arguments tend to resonant within the biblically- minded
Fundamentalists (Zeskind 1986, 33).
Another tool that is rapidly becoming a standard component of Identity's
evangelical outreach is the Internet. A simple search of any Internet
search engine reveals the wide variety of racist and anti-Semitic sites
available. Sites such as Kingdom Identity Ministries, Scriptures for
America Worldwide, and Christian Defense League are devoted to spreading
their ideology across the country--and, potentially, across the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reflection
Given the Identity movement's potential for violence, the question arises
as to what the Church's response should be. What steps can be taken to
combat racism and bigotry in the name of God, and ensure that the members
of the Body of Christ do not fall into Identity's snare? Though a
detailed, systematic answer to these questions are beyond the bounds of
this paper, a few general principles may prove helpful.
Firstly, the Church should not shy away from talking about race and
ethnicity. In recent years there has been a disturbing reluctance in
society to discuss matters of race as a present or future problem. The
overwhelming impetus has been one in which race is presented as a problem
of the past, such as the treatment of minorities in Nazi Germany or slaves
in colonial America. Consequently, fear arises when individuals are
confronted with race; because race is perceived as a problem of the past,
it should not need to be brought up in today's world (Musulin 1968,
94-95).
This is patently false. One need only read the daily paper to see that
race continues to be a factor which challenges our preconceived notions of
"progress" and "forward momentum." While the roots of racism, contained in
the past, must be understood, the absence of a serious understanding of
current race problems will only make it more difficult to separate
conflicting points of view--even those within the Christian tradition.
This confusion can only lead to greater apprehension and misunderstanding
(Musulin 1968, 98-100).
To combat this trend, new understanding about personal and societal
relationships must emerge; the commandment to "love your neighbor as
yourself" (Lev 19:18; par. Mt 19:19) must be interpreted in news ways. In
a society in which communication is virtually instantaneous and events
impact the most remote parts of the world, "neighbor" can no longer be
seen in the same light as it was even 50 years ago. Rather, the
commandment must be interpreted in a broader sense, encompassing broader
duties. For instance, when information on important moral issues is as
readily available as the nearest library, television, or computer
terminal, ignorance can no longer be tolerated as an excuse for being
ill-informed of current crises. Indeed, some have argued that it is the
moral duty of Christians to educate themselves and face new moral
situations as they arise in the world (Musulin 1968, 94).
This includes being aware of, and taking seriously, the threat represented
by Christian Identity groups, as well as other extremist ideologies.
Dismissing such groups as being driven by "ignorance, or stupidity, or
intolerance" ignores the foundations of such ideologies and does a
disservice to efforts to neutralize them (Novick 1995, 323). The brief
outline of Identity theology presented here should make it painfully
obvious that these groups have moved beyond mere ignorance of the
Christian tradition and into an alternate theology opposed to the
authentic spirit of the Gospel message.
In addition to facing problems of race in the world, the Church and its
members must recognize and promote biblical views which promote healthy
pluralism and diversity. For instance, the story of the Tower of Babel
(Gen 11:1-9) has long been interpreted as a story of divine punishment
inflicted upon humanity, a corollary to the Fall. However, there may be
other ways of looking at this story. The narrative itself is vague and
full of gaps: no specific sin is stated that leads to the divine
judgement, nor is any reason given for God's direct intervention, except
for a concern that "this is only the beginning of what they will do" (vs.
6). Consequently, a "maximum" interpretation has prevailed in Christian
theology, stating that humans wished to "storm the heavens" and take the
place of God (Anderson 1977, 66).
However, many Jewish and Christian interpreters, beginning with Josephus,
present a tamer view: humans, wary of the wilderness and searching for a
safe place, congregate in a large city, rebelling against God's command to
"be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it" (Gen 1:28).
The workers of Babel do not wish to storm heaven, but to stay close
together on the earth; the tower, in this interpretation, is nothing more
than impressively high building. Working together, the humans in Babel
represent a homogeneous people, one which speaks the same language. God,
to compel humanity to obey the divine command, scatters people to the
corners of the earth and confuses their language, ensuring that they will
not be able to come together in such a way again. The story of Babel is
placed after the Table of Nations (Gen 10) to explain the ethnic and
linguistic differences among the descendants of Noah, giving us a biblical
view which portrays pluralism as normative, at least when it comes to
language and ethnicity (Anderson 1977, 66-67).
However, the Bible also goes beyond merely condoning plurality to
admonishing the believer to respect the "other." From the story of the
exodus to Christ's parable of the Good Samaritan (Lk 10:29-37), it is the
alien, the "other," who is seen as in need of compassion and care. In the
Hebrew Scriptures this is portrayed as a direct result of the Exodus
experience, a call to remember the origins of the Hebrew people: "You
shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien, for you were aliens in the
land of Egypt" (Ex 22:21). The story of the Good Samaritan solidifies this
view by presenting vivid illustrations of behavior (Musulin 1968, 106).
Masking racism as religion and espousing religious dogmas that few care to
discuss, Christian Identity has laid quietly for years, slowly evolving a
sophisticated and systematic theology of hate. Only when violence erupts
in their wake do people come to realize the danger such theologies pose.
However, with a better understanding of Identity's beliefs and aware of
the Gospel's imperative to "love your neighbor," the Christian Church can
better prepare itself to resist Christian Identity groups and refute their
racist teachings.
++++++++++++++
.

User: "Roger"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	02 Aug 2006 04:52:57 AM

In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Bible John wrote
in message <1154491884_29411@sp6iad.superfeed.net>:

"127.0.0.1" <NoSpam@Nospam.com> wrote in message
news:5142092.Ray2cJJCPM@OpenBSD...

I heard that you hold to this movement

Hi John! This isn't true, I've never been associated with any of their
Churches..

.... but you *do* claim to believe their crap.
Too chickensh*t to actually come out to "john," huh?

For the most part I follow the teachings of Martin Luther. I consider him
to
be my minister of the bible, not these preachers that are in the Lutheran
church today.

No, for the most part you follow your hate, and only acknowledge those
parts of Luther which seem to help justify it.
Or perhaps you can specify where Luther discusses "seedlines" or any
other denomination?

Not sure about CERM, don't no anything about them. However, if you want to
know what C.I. is about you can read their beliefs here in their own
words.
http://www.christianidentity.net/

... of which you fully approve, right?

Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is
none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.

As for my perceived Anti-Semitism -

It's only perceived because it's there.
Why are you trying to deny it now?

I've looked into the Jews Holiest book "The Babylonian Talmud"

No, you've swallowed mindlessly the crap that other haters have told
you about it, since once again it seems to help justify your hate.

Lets just say, I see them the same way they see Gentiles.

No, you see them the way you imagine they see you, in your ate-twisted
mind.

Thanks Tommie for clearing things up with me.

About CERM this is my web ministry that I direct.

www.cerm.info

User: "Bible John"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	01 Aug 2006 02:06:15 AM

Fred Phelps may be a member of this movement.
http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/phelpsbio.html
"Bible John" <john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote in message
news:1154414112_22125@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

I heard that you hold to this movement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

I do not know much about this movement, but I am going to check out some
of my trusted apologetics websites to find some info on this movement, as
Wikepedia is just a object source. My own web ministry only has a small
section on Apologetics, because Biblical education is the focus at CERM,
so let me check out what some Apologetics websites have to say.

From some Apologetics websites

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/identity.html
http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm

CARM is CERM's most trusted Apologetics web ministry. This is what CARM
has to say about this movement Tommy.

Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.

--
Vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 2006 election!
http://www.joinarnold.com
The Bible calls sinners to Repentance (LK 5:32) and God's people to
Holiness (Rom 12:2).
www.cerm.info
Church Education Resource Ministries Founder and Director

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.

User: "Dr. Gassen Burnham"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	01 Aug 2006 04:52:28 AM

Bible John wrote:

Fred Phelps may be a member of this movement.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/phelpsbio.html

"Bible John" <john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote in message
news:1154414112_22125@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

I heard that you hold to this movement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

I do not know much about this movement, but I am going to check out some
of my trusted apologetics websites to find some info on this movement, as
Wikepedia is just a object source. My own web ministry only has a small
section on Apologetics, because Biblical education is the focus at CERM,
so let me check out what some Apologetics websites have to say.

From some Apologetics websites

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/identity.html
http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm

CARM is CERM's most trusted Apologetics web ministry. This is what CARM
has to say about this movement Tommy.

Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.

--
Vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 2006 election!
http://www.joinarnold.com
The Bible calls sinners to Repentance (LK 5:32) and God's people to
Holiness (Rom 12:2).
www.cerm.info
Church Education Resource Ministries Founder and Director

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Mate, the majority of us here don't give a ***** about your imaginary
best friend stuff.
If you want to waffle on about ***** that is as incredible as the jew
claim of a holocaust, take it back to your particular news group...be
it alt. fantasy or whatever,
We are adressing serious stuff here, like the kikes murdering kids in
lebanon.
Take your imaginary best friend navel gazing back to the apropriate
news group.
.

User: "Ben Cramer"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	02 Aug 2006 02:00:05 AM

"Dr. Gassen Burnham" <gasenburnham@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1154425948.646296.217320@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

Bible John wrote:

Fred Phelps may be a member of this movement.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/phelpsbio.html

"Bible John" <john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote in message
news:1154414112_22125@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

I heard that you hold to this movement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

I do not know much about this movement, but I am going to check out
some
of my trusted apologetics websites to find some info on this movement,
as
Wikepedia is just a object source. My own web ministry only has a small
section on Apologetics, because Biblical education is the focus at
CERM,
so let me check out what some Apologetics websites have to say.

From some Apologetics websites

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/identity.html
http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm

CARM is CERM's most trusted Apologetics web ministry. This is what CARM
has to say about this movement Tommy.

Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is
none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.

--
Vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 2006 election!
http://www.joinarnold.com
The Bible calls sinners to Repentance (LK 5:32) and God's people to
Holiness (Rom 12:2).
www.cerm.info
Church Education Resource Ministries Founder and Director

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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Mate, the majority of us here don't give a ***** about your imaginary
best friend stuff.

If you want to waffle on about ***** that is as incredible as the jew
claim of a holocaust, take it back to your particular news group...be
it alt. fantasy or whatever,

We are adressing serious stuff here, like the kikes murdering kids in
lebanon.

Take your imaginary best friend navel gazing back to the apropriate
news group.

Wouldn't it be nice if all the religious lunatics were shoved onto Tasmania,
each given a 40 ounce bottle of Bundaberg Rum and a baseball bat, and told
to start drinking at the same time.
Such a mitzvah already.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	01 Aug 2006 08:19:07 AM

We are adressing serious stuff here, like the kikes murdering kids in
lebanon.

Says someone who calls himself gas and burn them...
Dr. Gassen Burnham schreef:

Bible John wrote:

Fred Phelps may be a member of this movement.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/phelpsbio.html

"Bible John" <john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote in message
news:1154414112_22125@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

I heard that you hold to this movement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

I do not know much about this movement, but I am going to check out some
of my trusted apologetics websites to find some info on this movement, as
Wikepedia is just a object source. My own web ministry only has a small
section on Apologetics, because Biblical education is the focus at CERM,
so let me check out what some Apologetics websites have to say.

From some Apologetics websites

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/identity.html
http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm

CARM is CERM's most trusted Apologetics web ministry. This is what CARM
has to say about this movement Tommy.

Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.

--
Vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 2006 election!
http://www.joinarnold.com
The Bible calls sinners to Repentance (LK 5:32) and God's people to
Holiness (Rom 12:2).
www.cerm.info
Church Education Resource Ministries Founder and Director

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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Mate, the majority of us here don't give a ***** about your imaginary
best friend stuff.

If you want to waffle on about ***** that is as incredible as the jew
claim of a holocaust, take it back to your particular news group...be
it alt. fantasy or whatever,

We are adressing serious stuff here, like the kikes murdering kids in
lebanon.

Take your imaginary best friend navel gazing back to the apropriate
news group.

User: "Dr. Gassen Burnham"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	01 Aug 2006 06:51:57 PM

wrote:

Says someone who calls himself gas and burn them...

Took you a while to work out the intricacies of my nym, stupid.
Don't ya love it, most kikes do, they get extremely excited about it.
You are about 5 years behind the times, stooopid. This was whined about
years ago.
I make no pretense that I do not despise you smelly alabaster and dog
***** eating pederasts.
Now if you can't stand the heat, I suggest you use the old Talmudic
remedy and go sit in a river with your head up a chickens *****.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	02 Aug 2006 02:07:15 AM

Who says I whine about it? I merely point out that someone who calls
himself gas and burn them can't be taken serious.
You are the one who whines.
Dr. Gassen Burnham schreef:

aamerenga@gmail.com wrote:

Says someone who calls himself gas and burn them...

Took you a while to work out the intricacies of my nym, stupid.
Don't ya love it, most kikes do, they get extremely excited about it.
You are about 5 years behind the times, stooopid. This was whined about
years ago.
I make no pretense that I do not despise you smelly alabaster and dog
***** eating pederasts.

Now if you can't stand the heat, I suggest you use the old Talmudic
remedy and go sit in a river with your head up a chickens *****.

User: "Nomen Nescio"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	03 Aug 2006 08:30:03 PM

On 1 Aug 2006 16:51:57 -0700, "Dr. Gassen Burnham"
<gasenburnham@dodo.com.au> wrote:

aamerenga@gmail.com wrote:

Says someone who calls himself gas and burn them...

Took you a while to work out the intricacies of my nym, stupid.
Don't ya love it, most kikes do, they get extremely excited about it.
You are about 5 years behind the times, stooopid. This was whined about
years ago.
I make no pretense that I do not despise you smelly alabaster and dog
***** eating pederasts.

Now if you can't stand the heat, I suggest you use the old Talmudic
remedy and go sit in a river with your head up a chickens *****.

Gosh, don't you know it's been five years now and everytime you post,
the world laughs at you?
.

User: "Joe Bruno"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	01 Aug 2006 10:24:24 PM

Dr. Gassen Burnham wrote:

Bible John wrote:

Fred Phelps may be a member of this movement.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/phelpsbio.html

"Bible John" <john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote in message
news:1154414112_22125@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

I heard that you hold to this movement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

I do not know much about this movement, but I am going to check out some
of my trusted apologetics websites to find some info on this movement, as
Wikepedia is just a object source. My own web ministry only has a small
section on Apologetics, because Biblical education is the focus at CERM,
so let me check out what some Apologetics websites have to say.

From some Apologetics websites

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/identity.html
http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm

CARM is CERM's most trusted Apologetics web ministry. This is what CARM
has to say about this movement Tommy.

Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.

--
Vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 2006 election!
http://www.joinarnold.com
The Bible calls sinners to Repentance (LK 5:32) and God's people to
Holiness (Rom 12:2).
www.cerm.info
Church Education Resource Ministries Founder and Director

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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Mate, the majority of us here don't give a ***** about your imaginary
best friend stuff.

Really? Who did you poll to get that conclusion?

If you want to waffle on about ***** that is as incredible as the jew
claim of a holocaust, take it back to your particular news group...be
it alt. fantasy or whatever,

You post irrelevant crap all the time. Your sexual crap has nothing to
do with
revisionism, either.

User: "Ben Cramer"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	02 Aug 2006 02:02:30 AM

"Joe Bruno" <bruno@indystart.com> wrote in message
news:1154489064.885333.278540@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

Mate, the majority of us here don't give a ***** about your imaginary
best friend stuff.

Really? Who did you poll to get that conclusion?

Don't need any poll to know that the majority of the world does't believe in
all this religious shite, dopey.
.

User: "Dr. Gassen Burnham"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	02 Aug 2006 05:26:50 AM

Joe Bruno wrote:

Dr. Gassen Burnham wrote:

Bible John wrote:

Fred Phelps may be a member of this movement.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/phelpsbio.html

"Bible John" <john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote in message
news:1154414112_22125@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

I heard that you hold to this movement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

I do not know much about this movement, but I am going to check out some
of my trusted apologetics websites to find some info on this movement, as
Wikepedia is just a object source. My own web ministry only has a small
section on Apologetics, because Biblical education is the focus at CERM,
so let me check out what some Apologetics websites have to say.

From some Apologetics websites

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/identity.html
http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm

CARM is CERM's most trusted Apologetics web ministry. This is what CARM
has to say about this movement Tommy.

Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.

--
Vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 2006 election!
http://www.joinarnold.com
The Bible calls sinners to Repentance (LK 5:32) and God's people to
Holiness (Rom 12:2).
www.cerm.info
Church Education Resource Ministries Founder and Director

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Mate, the majority of us here don't give a ***** about your imaginary
best friend stuff.

Really? Who did you poll to get that conclusion?

If you want to waffle on about ***** that is as incredible as the jew
claim of a holocaust, take it back to your particular news group...be
it alt. fantasy or whatever,

You post irrelevant crap all the time. Your sexual crap has nothing to
do with
revisionism, either.

You just couldn't help yourself, could you ya mental defective?
Ya just had to shoot yourself in the foot.
You....the clutz who waxed long and lyrical, in post after post about
the age you imagine a boychild could get and maintain an erection in
order for a rabbi to perform fellatio on him !!!
Tossed out of the navy after being caught in a gun turret half dressed,
with a Marine Gunnery Sargeant.
Back to the sanatarium you ***** eating catatonic, you're due for
another tuneup.
.

User: "Bible John"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	01 Aug 2006 11:17:08 AM

I will no longer be reading your messages.
"Dr. Gassen Burnham" <gasenburnham@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1154425948.646296.217320@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

Bible John wrote:

Fred Phelps may be a member of this movement.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/phelpsbio.html

"Bible John" <john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote in message
news:1154414112_22125@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

I heard that you hold to this movement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

I do not know much about this movement, but I am going to check out
some
of my trusted apologetics websites to find some info on this movement,
as
Wikepedia is just a object source. My own web ministry only has a small
section on Apologetics, because Biblical education is the focus at
CERM,
so let me check out what some Apologetics websites have to say.

From some Apologetics websites

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/identity.html
http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm

CARM is CERM's most trusted Apologetics web ministry. This is what CARM
has to say about this movement Tommy.

Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is
none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.

--
Vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 2006 election!
http://www.joinarnold.com
The Bible calls sinners to Repentance (LK 5:32) and God's people to
Holiness (Rom 12:2).
www.cerm.info
Church Education Resource Ministries Founder and Director

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Mate, the majority of us here don't give a ***** about your imaginary
best friend stuff.

If you want to waffle on about ***** that is as incredible as the jew
claim of a holocaust, take it back to your particular news group...be
it alt. fantasy or whatever,

We are adressing serious stuff here, like the kikes murdering kids in
lebanon.

Take your imaginary best friend navel gazing back to the apropriate
news group.

User: "Ben Cramer"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	02 Aug 2006 02:01:18 AM

"Bible John" <john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote in message
news:1154448332_25015@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

I will no longer be reading your messages.

Then stay stupid, stupid.

"Dr. Gassen Burnham" <gasenburnham@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1154425948.646296.217320@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

Bible John wrote:

Fred Phelps may be a member of this movement.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/phelpsbio.html

"Bible John" <john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote in message
news:1154414112_22125@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

I heard that you hold to this movement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_identity

I do not know much about this movement, but I am going to check out
some
of my trusted apologetics websites to find some info on this movement,
as
Wikepedia is just a object source. My own web ministry only has a
small
section on Apologetics, because Biblical education is the focus at
CERM,
so let me check out what some Apologetics websites have to say.

From some Apologetics websites

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/identity.html
http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm

CARM is CERM's most trusted Apologetics web ministry. This is what
CARM
has to say about this movement Tommy.

Comments: True Christianity is Christ centered and focuses on love,
forgiveness, and patience and is opposed to racism. However, there is
none
of that in the Christian Identity Movement which advocates racism and
anti-Semitism. It is a dangerous group.

--
Vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger in the 2006 election!
http://www.joinarnold.com
The Bible calls sinners to Repentance (LK 5:32) and God's people to
Holiness (Rom 12:2).
www.cerm.info
Church Education Resource Ministries Founder and Director

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Mate, the majority of us here don't give a ***** about your imaginary
best friend stuff.

If you want to waffle on about ***** that is as incredible as the jew
claim of a holocaust, take it back to your particular news group...be
it alt. fantasy or whatever,

We are adressing serious stuff here, like the kikes murdering kids in
lebanon.

Take your imaginary best friend navel gazing back to the apropriate
news group.

User: "Dr. Gassen Burnham"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	01 Aug 2006 06:53:36 PM

Bible John wrote:

I will no longer be reading your messages.

And when he is greeted by peals of laughter he will be left wondering
why.
.

User: "Nomen Nescio"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	02 Aug 2006 05:00:07 PM

On 1 Aug 2006 16:53:36 -0700, "Dr. Gassen Burnham"
<gasenburnham@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Bible John wrote:

I will no longer be reading your messages.

And when he is greeted by peals of laughter he will be left wondering
why.

As is when nicegoy posts, the whole world points at him a laughs
.

User: "Bible Bob"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	01 Aug 2006 03:13:12 PM

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:17:08 -0700, "Bible John"
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote:

I will no longer be reading your messages.

Are you going to add Tommy to your hate page? Wonder if you have
added him yet. Let me look.
What the heck is going on? You changed the page without telling me.
What happened to all the names of thos you hate. You replaced us with
denominations. That's ain't fair. You didn't give me enough time to
beat out Steve Wintes for first place. You are an ole meanie.
Seriously, why do you turn on people so quickly? I know what the word
says about light fellowshipping with darkness but you are not light.
You are darkness trying to fellowship with light which is why you have
so much trouble fellowshipping with those of us who are lighthouses
and those who are minnie flashlights. Light has no fellowship with
darkness, John. Light dispells darkness because it has power.
Darkness is the absence of power. There is no power in darkness.
Your batteries are dead.
Well almost dead since from time to time I do see little sparks of
hope for you in the things you say. You need to get rid of that
religious crap that messes you up and spend some personal time with
God and the Lord Jesus Christ. They can teach you how to love. Love
is the only thing that id going to bring your dead battery back to
life.
......
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
.

User: "Bree"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	02 Aug 2006 12:42:51 AM

CHRISTIAN IDENTITY MOVEMENT
Included within the Christian Identity movements are: Anglo-Israelism,
British-Israelism, and some white supremacists, anti-semitic and other
hate groups.
Terminology:
The term "Christian Identity" has two distinct meanings:
Anglo-Israelism (a.k.a. British-Israelism): A theological belief that the
Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Scandinavian, Germanic and associated cultures are
the racial descendents of the tribes of Israel. Thus, by extension,
Americans and Canadians, are composed of the descendents of the ancient
Israelites of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament).
Racist, Christian-based faith groups: A number of small, extremely
conservative Fundamentalist Christian denominations which have accepted
Anglo-Israelism, and grafted it to racist, sexist, anti-communist and
homophobic beliefs. They view the Jewish people as descendants of Satan.
Followers tend to be involved in political movements opposing gun control,
equal rights to gays and lesbians, and militia movements.
The second meaning has become dominant in the U.S. and Canada. We will use
it for the remainder of this essay.
History:
The Christian Identity movement is a movement of many extremely
conservative Christian churches and religious organizations, extreme right
wing political groups and survival groups. Some are independent; others
are loosely interconnected. According to Professor Michael Barkun, one of
the leading experts in the Christian Identity movement, "This virulent
racist and anti-Semitic theology, which is practiced by over 50,000 people
in the United States alone, is prevalent among many right wing extremist
groups and has been called the 'glue' of the racist right."
The largest Christian Identity movement has traditionally been the Ku Klux
Klan which was reorganized in 1915 by William Simmons, a Christian pastor.
He had been inspired by the film The Birth of a Nation which portrayed the
KKK as a champion of white civilization. The KKK slid into obscurity by
the second World War, but was revitalized in the mid 1950's as a reaction
to enforced racial integration in the southern US.
Quoting the FBI's Megiddo Report on domestic terrorism: 5
"Wesley Swift is considered the single most significant figure in the
early years of the Christian Identity movement in the United States. He
popularized it in the right-wing by 'combining British-Israelism, a
demonic anti-Semitism, and political extremism.' 6 He founded his own
church in California in the mid 1940s where he could preach this ideology.
In addition, he had a daily radio broadcast in California during the 1950s
and 60s, through which he was able to proclaim his ideology to a large
audience. With Swift�s efforts, the message of his church spread, leading
to the creation of similar churches throughout the country. In 1957, the
name of his church was changed to The Church of Jesus Christ Christian,
which is used today by Aryan Nations (AN) churches."
"One of Swift�s associates, William Potter Gale, was far more militant
than Swift and brought a new element to Christian Identity churches. He
became a leading figure in the anti-tax and paramilitary movements of the
1970s and 80s. There are numerous Christian Identity churches that preach
similar messages and some espouse more violent rhetoric than others, but
all hold fast to the belief that Aryans are God�s chosen race."
Other current organizations which follow Christian Identity beliefs are:
American Nazi Party; Aryan Nations; Church of Jesus Christ Christian,
Aryan Nations; Confederate Hammerskins; Jubilee, National Association for
the Advancement of White People; The Order; radical modern offshoots of
the original Posse Comitatus; Scriptures for America, White Aryan
Resistance (WAR) and White Separatist Banner. Many small groups fade in
and out of existence frequently.
Beliefs about Armageddon:
Quoting again the FBI's Megiddo Report on domestic terrorism: 5
"Christian Identity also believes in the inevitability of the end of the
world and the Second Coming of Christ. It is believed that these events
are part of a cleansing process that is needed before Christ�s kingdom can
be established on earth. During this time, Jews and their allies will
attempt to destroy the white race using any means available. The result
will be a violent and bloody struggle -- a war, in effect -- between God�s
forces, the white race, and the forces of evil, the Jews and nonwhites.
Significantly, many adherents believe that this will be tied into the
coming of the new millennium."
"The view of what Armageddon will be varies among Christian Identity
believers. Some contend there will be a race war in which millions will
die; others believe that the United Nations, backed by Jewish
representatives of the anti-Christ, will take over the country and promote
a New World Order. One Christian Identity interpretation is that white
Christians have been chosen to watch for signs of the impending war in
order to warn others. They are to then physically struggle with the forces
of evil against sin and other violations of God�s law (i.e., race-mixing
and internationalism); many will perish, and some of God�s chosen will be
forced to wear the Mark of the Beast to participate in business and
commerce. After the final battle is ended and God�s kingdom is established
on earth, only then will the Aryan people be recognized as the one and
true Israel."
"Christian Identity adherents believe that God will use his chosen race as
his weapons to battle the forces of evil. Christian Identity followers
believe they are among those chosen by God to wage this battle during
Armageddon and they will be the last line of defense for the white race
and Christian America. To prepare for these events, they engage in
survivalist and paramilitary training, storing foodstuffs and supplies,
and caching weapons and ammunition. They often reside on compounds located
in remote areas."
The leadership of the more radical "CI" groups advocate, but do not
themselves engage in violence against Jews, Blacks, and Homosexuals now,
rather than waiting for Armageddon to begin.
The Watchman web site contained a quote from a Christian Identity leader
which gives a flavor of their style of rhetoric, and their predictions for
the future of North America:
"We are going to build the Kingdom of our God on this continent if we have
to turn it into a Bosnia first! Death may find you in front of your
one-eyed church of Satan or in the filthy bingo parlors where you worship
your devil god, but be sure that you will not escape the consuming fire
that is the real baptism of the Holy Ghost, The God of Racial Israel.2
Other beliefs:
Such groups have hijacked the benign religious concept of Anglo-Israelism,
(also known as British-Israelism). The latter teach that the British (and
by extension Americans, Canadians, and others) are the spiritual and
literal descendants of the 10 lost tribes of ancient Israel. After the
invasion of the Northern kingdom of Israel, the Assyrians scattered the
indigenous population. They resettled in the Caucasus Mountains, and later
drifted into Europe. The Christian Identity movement extended that theory
and generated their own profoundly racist doctrine. They believe that the
white race (or the "Aryan peoples" or "White Anglo Saxon Protestants", or
the "British Peoples", or "White Americans") represent God's chosen
people, as mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). They have
taken these beliefs in an extreme direction to justify their hatred of
Blacks, Jews, homosexuals and communists.
Some beliefs held in common by many Christian Identity (CI) groups are:
A very conservative interpretation of the Christian Bible. This has led to
a hatred of homosexuality and of homosexuals and a rejection of followers
of other religions.
A view of the white race, the "Adamic race" or "True Israelites" as
superior. Other races are the "Satanic spawn" of Cain. This leads
naturally to a hatred of Blacks, Native Americans, and immigrants from
"non-Aryan" lands
That Adam and Eve were white. Many other "pre-Adamic" and non-white people
were already in existence when Adam was created. This leads to the belief
that Anglo-Saxon Protestants are the "true identity" of God's chosen
people of the Hebrew Scriptures. Non-whites are considered sub-human.
These Biblical beliefs confirm their concept of white racial superiority.
As a minimum, they call for racial separation; some call for extermination
of what the call the "mud races" (non-white races).�
That the Commandment which forbids adultery does not refer to
extra-marital sexual relationships. Rather, it forbids "racial adultery";
i.e. inter-racial marriages. Their reasoning is that the 10th Commandment
which forbids coveting one's neighbor's possessions already bans adultery;
one of those "possessions" is the neighbor's wife. And, God would not have
repeated Himself.
They consider themselves to be the direct descendants Adam's son Abel and
thus are God's chosen people. They regard the Jewish people as having
descended from Cain. Thus the Jewish belief that they are the chosen
people is invalid. This has led to an extreme anti-Semitism within the
Christian Identity movement.
They frequently promote complex conspiracy theories. For example, 1
"Mainstream Christianity is acting in concert with the Jews through a
group called "Cult Awareness Network" which is a front for the ADL [Jewish
Anti-Defamation League] to destroy 'The Family'". (The latter is an
international group of small intentional Fundamentalist Christian
communities which has been called a cult by the Counter-cult Movement).
The "New Age movement can best be described as a 'Counterfeit Identity'.
It is being raised up by Jews to provide a substitute for the real truth."
"..all that is commonly known as modern Christianity is the creation of
the Jews."
Recent developments:
1999-FEB-4: FBI director Louis Freeh warned that: "With the coming of the
next millennium, some religious/apocalyptic groups or individuals may turn
to violence as they seek to achieve dramatic effects to fulfill their
prophecies." He also talked about another disturbing religious trend:�
"Many white supremacist groups adhere to the Christian Identity belief
system, which holds that the world is on the verge of a final apocalyptic
struggle...and teaches that the white race is the chosen race of God." He
warned that in late 1999, some Christian Identity members might prepare
for their anticipated Armageddon by committing robberies to finance their
activities. Director Freeh said that the government, Jews and non-whites
are likely targets. 4
1999-AUG-13: Women Leaders Online reported that a number of the most
serious urban U.S. terrorism acts were perpetrated by members of Christian
Identity groups, including:
Eric Rudolph, a suspect in bombings at a Birmingham AL abortion clinic and
at the Atlanta Olympics
Arsonists who torched three synagogues in Sacramento CA in 1999-JUL
Murder of a gay couple near Redding, CA
Buford O'Neal Furrow Jr, suspect in the murder of a postal service
employee and the attempted murder of 5 individuals at a Jewish community
center in Los Angeles CA in 1999-AUG.
"and many other violent crimes across the country."
In addition, three men who were charged with two bank robberies, and three
bombings in Spokane, Washington in 1996-APR were linked to the CI
movement. The crimes were apparently motivated by a need to raise money
for the group.�
These terrorist acts appear to be planned and executed by individual
Christian Identity followers, and not by Identity churches or the movement
itself. Because of the freedom of speech and religion guaranteed in the
1st Amendment of the Constitution, the FBI is prohibited from general
monitoring and infiltrating of Christian Identity and similar groups.
1999-OCT-20: The FBI announced completion of their Project Megiddo report.
This followed an intensive study of the possibility of domestic terrorism
during the millennium. It included a section on the Christian Identity
movement. 5
2003-JUN-25: South Africa: White supremacist, conservative Christianity
spreading rapidly: A decade after the collapse of white minority rule and
apartheid, scores of right-wing white supremacist Christian faith groups
are being founded. They believe that black majority rule is a punishment
sent by God because of the disobedience by the Afrikaner people. They view
themselves as descendents of the ten lost tribes of Israel -- white people
whose destiny is to rule over all races who are forbidden to mix with
other races.
Reverend Willie Smith, who was formerly a Baptist minister for 26 years,
founded Lewende Hoop (Living Hope) in Kroonstad in the Free State in the
late 1990s. He said: "I looked around and saw the need of my people, the
Afrikaners. They do not know who they are. The other churches are not
preaching the truth. But I tell them, you are the people of the Bible. The
Bible was written for you....We strayed from the teachings of the Bible.
Our leaders sold us out. They want us to mix with the other races. But it
is not working. The other churches are preaching that you must love all.
But we don�t want that. We don't want to overthrow the Government. We have
to wait for deliverance from the Lord....We are suffering under this
ANC-communist regime. We want blacks, coloreds and the other races to
return to their traditions. If we rule, it will be a blessing for all of
Africa." Smith's group allegedly consists of thirty congregations with a
total of 6,000 believers. 8
.

User: "Bree"
Title: Re: Tommie is it true that you belong to the Christian Identity movement?	02 Aug 2006 12:52:00 AM

What is the Christian Identity Church movement?
St. Louis Post-Dispatch/March 5, 2000
Earliest roots: Began in England in the 1840s by Rev. John Wilson who
preached that Anglo-Saxons were God's "chosen people" as the descendants