Religions > Bible > Tongues are not of God since they let women speak such in their churches. 1 Cor. 14:34,35
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"old man joe" |
| Date: |
24 Dec 2006 05:56:33 PM |
| Object: |
Tongues are not of God since they let women speak such in their churches. 1 Cor. 14:34,35 |
by allowing a woman to speak in tongues in church it is easy to see
that tongues have ceased and is not of God for...
" for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. " 1 Cor.
14:34,35
its just another proof of the liberal thinking of the social gospel
which pretends to worship God but by their rejection of the written
Word they are professing a gospel shaped to met their own diabolical
needs.
the peculiar thing is they call themselves Christian. it's not
possible to be a Christian and openly reject the Word of God at the
same time. but this is part and parcel of the delusion which God said
He'd pour out on the reprobate.
when Agnes Ozman stated Pentecostalism at the turn of the last
century see spoke in tongues in front of the whole congregation...
Pentecostalism is born out of Arminianism... Arminianism is born out
of Gnosticism.
Gnosticism is born out of female goddess worship.
female goddess worship is born out of Eve who saw the fruit of the
tree was able to make her wise.
Agnes was sinning when she claimed to be speaking in tongues back
then. Agnes sought her own glory by speaking out in church. Agnes
defied God. Pentecostalists defy God. Pentecostalists let women run
churches, have authority over men and thier women speak openly in
church all the time.
in fact, Ellen G. White stated her own religion of which evil men
obey without question. they don't care that God does not permit a
woman to have authority over them in church. they like to be lead by
female goddess worship as do the papists.
nothing Pentecostal is of God unless salvation is suddenly of works
and the Bible is wrong.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues are not of God since they let women speak such in their churches. 1 Cor. 14:34,35 |
24 Dec 2006 09:31:47 PM |
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"old man joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:7t4uo211t85kgsbp620rjoop3r2au7n6fq@4ax.com...
by allowing a woman to speak in tongues in church it is easy to see
that tongues have ceased and is not of God for...
" for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. " 1 Cor.
14:34,35
For a start, speaking in tongues and speaking in church are two completely
different things.
And the above verse was an article of tradition of the time, not a law of
God.
Surely you can figure that part out for yourself.
Times and traditions have changed.
Or do you believe that God considers women to be inferior to men? Or perhaps
he has a secret hatred for them?
Women have vocal cords and they have a voice. Some now even hold positions
of power, and sometimes they even make better decisions than men.
What exactly is your problem? My guess is that you just blindly follow words
from a book without thinking.
Am I right?
--
Andrew W.
A god who requires bloodshed and suffering of the innocent in order to
forgive can only be an evil god, and anyone who gleefully supports this kind
of god character can only be insane.
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.fipdata.org/index.html
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues are not of God since they let women speak such in their churches. 1 Cor. 14:34,35 |
26 Dec 2006 07:43:50 AM |
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Following with the eyes of the flesh...
Not paying att. to the spirit or just maybe not even having the
spirit...
Andrew W wrote:
"old man joe" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:7t4uo211t85kgsbp620rjoop3r2au7n6fq@4ax.com...
by allowing a woman to speak in tongues in church it is easy to see
that tongues have ceased and is not of God for...
" for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. " 1 Cor.
14:34,35
For a start, speaking in tongues and speaking in church are two completely
different things.
And the above verse was an article of tradition of the time, not a law of
God.
Surely you can figure that part out for yourself.
Times and traditions have changed.
Or do you believe that God considers women to be inferior to men? Or perhaps
he has a secret hatred for them?
Women have vocal cords and they have a voice. Some now even hold positions
of power, and sometimes they even make better decisions than men.
What exactly is your problem? My guess is that you just blindly follow words
from a book without thinking.
Am I right?
--
Andrew W.
A god who requires bloodshed and suffering of the innocent in order to
forgive can only be an evil god, and anyone who gleefully supports this kind
of god character can only be insane.
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.fipdata.org/index.html
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Tongues are of God [Was: Tongues are not of God since they let women speak such in their churches. 1 Cor. 14:34,35] |
25 Dec 2006 07:46:13 AM |
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old man joe said on Dec 24, 3:56 pm: by allowing a
woman to speak in tongues in church it is easy to
see that tongues have ceased and is not of God
for... "for it is improper for a woman to speak in
church. " 1 Cor. 14:34,35
Tongues should never be spoken in church unless
there's someone there who can interpret them (1 Cor.
14:28,19), and even then, no more than 3 people
should speak in tongues, and they should do so only
1 at a time (1 Cor. 14:27), followed by the
interpretation. All Christians with tongues should
pray for the gift of interpretation (1 Cor. 14:13).
Because tongues are of God, even without
interpretation they edify the speaker's spirit
(1 Cor. 14:4,14,15) and faith (Jude 20) in the
privacy of their own home or mind. Paul wanted every
Christian to speak with tongues (1 Cor. 14:5).
1 Cor. 14:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:11-12 shows that women
aren't ever to speak from their own minds in church,
whether to ask questions or to teach. But some
interpreted tongues could be seen as a species of
prophecy, i.e. given by the Holy Spirit to edify the
church, so that, just as women prophets (Acts 21:9)
could be allowed to speak a prophetic-message in the
church, insofar as it's not them speaking but the
Spirit speaking through them, so women could be
allowed to speak in a tongues-message for the church
in churches with an interpreter, insofar as it's not
them speaking but the Spirit speaking through them.
Of course, anything anyone says, no matter whether
they're male or female, no matter whether they're
prophesying or having their tongue interpreted,
everything they say must always be tested against
what the scriptures themselves say, for the Spirit
will never contradict the scriptures. This is why
Paul says that even after someone prophesies, what
they said is to be "judged" or "discerned" (1 Cor.
14:29); i.e. it always needs to be determined
whether the message is true and really from God or
somewhat off and only from the person's own mind,
or, worse, from an evil spirit (e.g. 1 Tim. 4:1;
1 Jn. 4:1-3; 1 Cor. 12:3).
old man joe said: it's not possible to be a
Christian and openly reject the Word of God
Right, which means no Christian should be completely
opposing any proper speaking and interpreting of
tongues, and prophesying, in church (e.g. 1 Cor.
14:39; 1 Thes. 5:19-20).
old man joe said: Pentecostalism is born out of
Arminianism
That depends on how Pentecostalism is defined; there
are so many variations. At its most basic level,
it's simply the belief that all the gifts of the
Spirit (1 Cor. 12:8-10) are still operating in the
church and will continue to operate until Jesus
returns and is seen face to face (1 Cor. 13:10-12;
1 Jn. 3:2). Someone who holds this view can also
hold the correct view that God sovereignly chooses
who is to be saved (e.g. Jn. 6:44,65, Acts 13:48,
Rom. 9:16-23); just as someone who holds a correct
view of God's sovereignty can also hold an incorrect
view which abhors tongues.
old man joe said: Arminianism is born out of
Gnosticism.
How so? Can you explain the connection you see?
old man joe said: Gnosticism is born out of female
goddess worship.
How so? Can you explain the connection you see? Did
some Gnostics ultimately worship the serpent Lucifer
as their "Christ", liberating them from what they
saw as the evil demiurge of YHWH; and did some of
them think Lucifer was female?
old man joe said: female goddess worship is born
out of Eve who saw the fruit of the tree was able
to make her wise.
Wasn't Eve deceived by Lucifer? (2 Cor. 11:3). Isn't
that why women aren't permitted to teach in church?
(1 Tim. 2:12-14). Could women be "the weaker vessel"
(1 Pet. 3:7) not only physically but also in
spiritual discernment, i.e. they are more likely to
give heed to false teachings than men?
old man joe said: Pentecostalists let women run
churches, have authority over men and their women
speak openly in church all the time
Such errors aren't based on their speaking in
tongues, for there are people who speak in tongues
who reject all of those things as against the
scriptures; and there are churches who don't speak
in tongues who let all of these things occur.
old man joe said: nothing Pentecostal is of God
unless salvation is suddenly of works and the
Bible is wrong
If by works you mean speaking in tongues, not all
Christians will speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30).
If by works you mean good works that help others,
all Christians must have some good works to show
for their faith (e.g. Tit. 1:16, Jas. 2:14-26).
Now I must ask, must one who preaches that the
church has to follow the restrictions against women
speaking in church also preach that the church has
to follow the rule of women wearing headcoverings
when they pray or prophesy? (1 Cor. 11:6). I would
say yes. But where can a church be found which
silences women from speaking from their own minds
in church, and makes them wear headcoverings? And if
some such churches can be found, how many of them
have prophesying and tongues and interpretation as
churches are supposed to have? I.e. where is a
church today that obeys all of the scriptures?
*******
(A subsequent poster)
Andrew W said on Dec 24, 7:31 pm [Re: 1 Cor.
14:34-35]: the above verse was an article of
tradition of the time, not a law of God
No, Paul added 1 Cor. 14:36-37 precisely to counter
such an argument, to show that it was a law of God.
Andrew W said: Times and traditions have changed.
The Lord has not changed (Heb. 13:8). Christians
must beware of any "traditions" of men and the world
that aren't after Christ (Col. 2:8).
Andrew W said: do you believe that God considers
women to be inferior to men?
Not inferior in value, just "weaker" (1 Pet. 3:7).
Andrew W said: Or perhaps he has a secret hatred
for them?
Certainly not. God doesn't hate women or men or
Christ, even though Christian women submit to men
(e.g. Eph. 5:22) and Christian men submit to Christ
and Christ submits to God (1 Cor. 11:3).
Andrew W said: sometimes they even make better
decisions than men.
Just as younger people sometimes make better
decisions than older people, whether by chance or
by wisdom, but younger people should still submit
to the older (1 Pet. 5:5). If someone who isn't in
a position of authority thinks he or she has a
better idea than those in authority, they should
contact them privately and "submit" their idea to
them. While most ideas that are truly better will
eventually prevail, people with better ideas still
can't usurp authority that doesn't belong to them,
no matter whether their better ideas are rejected or
accepted by those in authority. E.g., even if you
can prove to a judge that a policeman ticketed you
wrongly, that doesn't mean you have the right to
take upon yourself the authority of a policeman or
a judge.
Andrew W said: My guess is that you just blindly
follow words from a book without thinking.
Actually, it's those who don't obey the scriptures
whose vain "thinking" has blinded them (e.g. Eph.
4:17-18, Rom. 1:21-22, Is. 55:7-11).
Andrew W said: A god who requires bloodshed and
suffering of the innocent in order to forgive can
only be an evil god
A God who offers His own bloodshed and suffering in
order to forgive can only be the most loving God
imaginable (Acts 20:28, Rev. 1:5, Jn. 10:11).
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues are of God [Was: Tongues are not of God since they let women speak such in their churches. 1 Cor. 14:34,35] |
25 Dec 2006 02:20:00 PM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167054373.488813.72370@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
old man joe said on Dec 24, 3:56 pm: by allowing a
woman to speak in tongues in church it is easy to
see that tongues have ceased and is not of God
for... "for it is improper for a woman to speak in
church. " 1 Cor. 14:34,35
Tongues should never be spoken in church unless
there's someone there who can interpret them (1 Cor.
14:28,19),
Has anyone ever successfully interpreted a tongue speaker in history?
I'd be very interested if so.
and even then, no more than 3 people
should speak in tongues, and they should do so only
1 at a time (1 Cor. 14:27), followed by the
interpretation. All Christians with tongues should
pray for the gift of interpretation (1 Cor. 14:13).
Because tongues are of God,
Er, yeah, that's one possibility. Not the first one that should be
considered though.
even without
interpretation they edify the speaker's spirit
It makes the speaker feel high in other words. Its an emotional outpouring.
Sort of like a laughing fit.
(1 Cor. 14:4,14,15) and faith (Jude 20) in the
privacy of their own home or mind. Paul wanted every
Christian to speak with tongues (1 Cor. 14:5).
Its good to be multilingual.
1 Cor. 14:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:11-12 shows that women
aren't ever to speak from their own minds in church,
whether to ask questions or to teach.
That's an old Jewish tradition. What's that got to do with us?
<snip>
--
Andrew W.
A god who requires bloodshed and suffering of the innocent in order to
forgive can only be an evil god, and anyone who gleefully supports this kind
of god character can only be insane.
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.fipdata.org/index.html
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues are of God [Was: Tongues are not of God since they let women speak such in their churches. 1 Cor. 14:34,35] |
27 Dec 2006 06:10:28 AM |
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Andrew W said on Dec 25, 12:20 pm: Has anyone ever
successfully interpreted a tongue speaker in
history?
Interpretation of tongues is one of the gifts of
the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:10,30; 14:5,13,26,27)
which is still operating today in the church. I
myself have witnessed it in operation. Of course,
any interpretation of a tongue must be spiritually
"judged" or "discerned" as valid or invalid by the
church, just as any prophecy made in a normal
language must be (1 Cor. 14:29).
Andrew W said [Re: Tongues are of God]: that's one
possibility. Not the first one that should be
considered though.
Maybe not if you're at a voodoo meeting and a
priestess rolls back her eyes and starts shrieking
out in a weird language as she sacrifices a chicken
to cast a spell on somebody. But if you're in a
Christian church meeting and someone you know is a
faithful Spirit-filled Christian stands up and
soberly offers a message in a tongue, I'd say your
1st assumption better be that it's from God, for to
ascribe any work of the Holy Spirit to an unclean
spirit is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which is
the only unforgivable sin (Mk. 3:28-30).
Andrew W said [Re: Tongues edify the speaker's
spirit (1 Cor. 14:4,14,17; Jude 20)]: It makes the
speaker feel high in other words. It's an
emotional outpouring. Sort of like a laughing fit.
Not at all. Tongues can be spoken quite soberly, and
can even make your spirit tremble with the holy fear
of God if they are speaking about His anger and
judgment against sin. Tongues do not arise from the
emotions of the human mind; they are purely from the
spirit, so that the mind remains completely
unaffected, whether emotionally or intellectually,
by uninterpreted tongues, because the mind cannot
understand what they mean (1 Cor. 14:14-15).
Andrew W said: Paul wanted every Christian to
speak with tongues (1 Cor. 14:5): It's good to be
multilingual.
Yes, an individual Christian can be given multiple
tongues (1 Cor. 12:10), each of which can sound like
a completely different language.
Andrew W said [Re: 1 Cor. 14:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:11-12
shows that women aren't ever to speak from their
own minds in church, whether to ask questions or
to teach]: That's an old Jewish tradition. What's
that got to do with us?
They are the commandments of the Lord (1 Cor.
14:37), based on spiritual facts (1 Tim. 2:14).
*******
(A subsequent poster)
john w said on Dec 26, 6:17 pm: There was only
the supernatural giving of a language that was not
known to the person speaking, but that WAS known
to the person who was hearing.
That was the case at Pentecost (Acts 2:4-11), but
not always the case in the churches, for Paul refers
to tongues that need interpretation, without which
no man would understand them (1 Cor. 14:2,23,28).
john w said: There is only one MENTION-
metaphorical-of a "heavenly" or "prayer" language
but NO mention of it ever actually OCCURRING.
Paul wrote about things that were occurring among
Christians, including their spirit "praying" in
tongues (1 Cor. 14:14-17, cf. Jude 20).
john w said: Paul said that tongues and the other
signs ceased in his day.
He nowhere says that, but says they wouldn't cease
until Jesus returned and was seen face to face
(1 Cor. 13:10-12, cf. 1 Jn. 3:2). That's why he
told Christians not to try to stop the gifts of the
Spirit from operating in their churches (1 Cor.
14:39; 1 Thes. 5:19-20), and also not to make them
so important that they lose sight of what really
matters most (1 Cor. 13:1-7).
john w said: If tongues is real today, show me
people who speak in tongues
Go to any Spirit-filled church, e.g. any Pentecostal
or Charismatic-type church. If you are willing, and
don't harden your heart, they will even lay hands on
you that you too might speak in tongues, for it is
the least of the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:28),
and therefore the most common. But not everyone will
receive it (1 Cor. 12:30), so don't be discouraged
if you don't speak in a tongue even after honestly
asking for one a few different times.
john w said: Those who point to gibberish as
"tongues" are not testing the spirits.
Rather, those who consider tongues as "gibberish"
are not discerning the Spirit.
john w said: the anti-Christ will perform GREAT
signs and wonders, so powerful that he confuses
many Christians.
Indeed, which is why we can never base our doctrine
solely on signs and wonders, even by godly people
(Rom. 15:19), but must test every teaching against
what the scriptures themselves say (Acts 17:11;
2 Tim. 4:2-4). Christians who all they do is go
around looking for people who can give them
"spiritual goosebumps" will be given aplenty when
they see the signs and wonders of the false prophets
and false Christs who are coming in the future (Mt.
24:24), who will teach all manner of doctrines of
devils (1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Pet. 2) and antichrist (1 Jn.
4:3, 2:22). Many nominal Christians will be deceived
because they didn't know the Bible; that's one of
the most common failings I've found in Pentecostal
and Charismatic-type churches; they're so overly
caught up "in the Spirit" that they've lost all
interest in real and steady study of His Word, and
so are being set up to follow the latest miracle-
worker who might appear on the scene "in the name
of Christ", teaching all manner of "new and
powerful" doctrines, which "go beyond the Bible and
take believers into the next level, a new and higher
level of spirituality in Christ. Sign up now for the
seminar coming soon to a city near you, and become
ALL that you were meant to be in Christ! Only
$349.00 for the entire weekend!".
Always remember Mk. 13:5-6, 21-23, and, ultimately,
Rev. 13:13-18, 19:20.
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues are of God [Was: Tongues are not of God since they let women speak such in their churches. 1 Cor. 14:34,35] |
27 Dec 2006 03:55:56 PM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167221428.011058.88380@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
Andrew W said on Dec 25, 12:20 pm: Has anyone ever
successfully interpreted a tongue speaker in
history?
Interpretation of tongues is one of the gifts of
the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:10,30; 14:5,13,26,27)
which is still operating today in the church. I
myself have witnessed it in operation. Of course,
any interpretation of a tongue must be spiritually
"judged" or "discerned" as valid or invalid by the
church, just as any prophecy made in a normal
language must be (1 Cor. 14:29).
But has the church ever been able to judge as valid and meaningful *any*
tongue session in history?
I think not. We would have heard about it by now. Which leaves the door open
to the possibility that its just spontaneous human babble, which is
documented that humans are known to do when in altered states of mind. Lets
be open minded here.
Consider at least the fact that so far no tongue session has ever given us
any useful information like how to solve the problem of poverty or
starvation in the world. If it has no use then why would the Holy Spirit of
God bother doing it? Have you ever asked yourself that? Why would the Holy
Spirit do something that has yielded no usefulness whatsoever?
Andrew W said [Re: Tongues are of God]: that's one
possibility. Not the first one that should be
considered though.
Maybe not if you're at a voodoo meeting and a
priestess rolls back her eyes and starts shrieking
out in a weird language as she sacrifices a chicken
to cast a spell on somebody. But if you're in a
Christian church meeting and someone you know is a
faithful Spirit-filled Christian stands up and
soberly offers a message in a tongue, I'd say your
1st assumption better be that it's from God, for to
ascribe any work of the Holy Spirit to an unclean
spirit is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which is
the only unforgivable sin (Mk. 3:28-30).
How can you be sure that its the Holy Spirit? There are many spirits with
various agendas. Just because it feels good for the subject doesn't verify
anything. Any spirit can make a human feel good if it serves its purposes.
Christians make a lot of pious assumptions. That's a nasty side effect of
faith.
Not all faith is good faith. Christians always assume it is. Faith can be
placed in anyone or anything. Doing so doesn't make it real or good. The
Germans placed a lot of faith in Hitler and look what happened. Assuming can
be very dangerous, as we can see from Christianity's bloody history. That's
hard proof from your very own church. You must be able to comprehend this.
Andrew W said [Re: Tongues edify the speaker's
spirit (1 Cor. 14:4,14,17; Jude 20)]: It makes the
speaker feel high in other words. It's an
emotional outpouring. Sort of like a laughing fit.
Not at all. Tongues can be spoken quite soberly, and
can even make your spirit tremble with the holy fear
of God if they are speaking about His anger and
judgment against sin. Tongues do not arise from the
emotions of the human mind; they are purely from the
spirit, so that the mind remains completely
unaffected, whether emotionally or intellectually,
by uninterpreted tongues, because the mind cannot
understand what they mean (1 Cor. 14:14-15).
There's no such thing as "the holy fear of God". The true Creator source is
love and the Creator only puts peace into people's hearts.
And if you believe that God gets angry and is so legalistic and military
then you have fallen for the lies and distortions that have been inserted
into the Bible by humans.
Read the following webpage for a closer truth.
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
Andrew W said: Paul wanted every Christian to
speak with tongues (1 Cor. 14:5): It's good to be
multilingual.
Yes, an individual Christian can be given multiple
tongues (1 Cor. 12:10), each of which can sound like
a completely different language.
Andrew W said [Re: 1 Cor. 14:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:11-12
shows that women aren't ever to speak from their
own minds in church, whether to ask questions or
to teach]: That's an old Jewish tradition. What's
that got to do with us?
They are the commandments of the Lord (1 Cor.
Prove that it was the Lord's commandment that women must never speak in
churches ever and not just a Jewish tradition.
The Bible contains many human authored Jewish traditions. Where on earth do
you get your sweeping pious conclusions from? Don't tell me. The Bible.
14:37), based on spiritual facts (1 Tim. 2:14).
What spiritual facts?
For a start, what is a spirit? And how on earth does anyone glean a 'fact'
from it?
Its clear to any normal person that you literalist Christians live in a
superstitious biblical fairyland mind fog.
--
Andrew W.
A god who requires the bloodshed and suffering of the innocent in order to
forgive can only be an evil god, and anyone who gleefully supports this kind
of god character can only be insane.
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.fipdata.org/index.html
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues are of God [Was: Tongues are not of God since they let women speak such in their churches. 1 Cor. 14:34,35] |
27 Dec 2006 11:17:33 PM |
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Andrew W wrote:
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167221428.011058.88380@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
Andrew W said on Dec 25, 12:20 pm: Has anyone ever
successfully interpreted a tongue speaker in
history?
Interpretation of tongues is one of the gifts of
the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:10,30; 14:5,13,26,27)
which is still operating today in the church. I
myself have witnessed it in operation. Of course,
any interpretation of a tongue must be spiritually
"judged" or "discerned" as valid or invalid by the
church, just as any prophecy made in a normal
language must be (1 Cor. 14:29).
But has the church ever been able to judge as valid and meaningful *any*
tongue session in history?
I think not. We would have heard about it by now. Which leaves the door open
to the possibility that its just spontaneous human babble, which is
documented that humans are known to do when in altered states of mind. Lets
be open minded here.
What you think, may be important to you, but has little bearing on the
issues being discussed here! You say that "We would have heard about
it by now," which is an equally foolish statement, considering the
history of accurate journalism! As far as any doors being left open,
your unbelief leaves an equal number of doors open, which is basically
to say that this means very little to nothing as an issue in the
understanding of the issues involved here!
As to your question, about church history, and the validity and
meaningfullness of *any* tongue session in history, you are hardly in
any position to judge this, since the total experiences that you have
experienced, only represent a very small fraction of all the possible
works of the Holy Spirit! So your audacity though it seems to have an
appearance of rationality, is actually totally irrational!
Now if you will hear it, I can share with you a number of ocassions
when a known language was spoken, or the language was understood by
numerous individuals involved. So your statement about the messages
not having a meaningful or valid interpretation is patently false! At
least in my experience, and I am sure that many others could share
their pearls with you, it they thought they would be treated as
precious pearls! Not everyone is as willing to share as I am, and to
call your hand a bluff!
Consider at least the fact that so far no tongue session has ever given us
any useful information like how to solve the problem of poverty or
starvation in the world. If it has no use then why would the Holy Spirit of
God bother doing it? Have you ever asked yourself that? Why would the Holy
Spirit do something that has yielded no usefulness whatsoever?
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of
tongues! We are told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies
themselves. It there is the proper interpretation, then the tongues
would edify the larger congregation that would hear the message and
understand it. Now the process of edifing is not the same thing as
glorifying, though some use tongues to glorify themselves which is what
was occuring in Corinth.
Also Please note, the process of being edified is not questioned by the
Apostle, and in fact the need to be edified is endorsed, and the means
of being edified by tongues is endorsed by the Apostle when he says he
prays more than the rest! At the same time he is praying, there is no
understanding that there is any sort of interpretation required since
he is not praying in the congregation, but instead by himself in his
closet!
Now edification, is the building up in Faith of an individual. We
understand, that Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of
God. We are not necessarily expecting to get messages about "how to
solve the problem of poverty or starvation in the world," but instead
what we need to personally hear most, which is that God Loves us, and
that He is near! Now that is not to say that from that foundation,
many have gone out, built up in their faith, and changed their worlds
in phenomenal ways! But whatever they accomplish, is built on the sure
foundation that the Holy Spirit builds when He edifies us in Christ!
Andrew W said [Re: Tongues are of God]: that's one
possibility. Not the first one that should be
considered though.
Maybe not if you're at a voodoo meeting and a
priestess rolls back her eyes and starts shrieking
out in a weird language as she sacrifices a chicken
to cast a spell on somebody. But if you're in a
Christian church meeting and someone you know is a
faithful Spirit-filled Christian stands up and
soberly offers a message in a tongue, I'd say your
1st assumption better be that it's from God, for to
ascribe any work of the Holy Spirit to an unclean
spirit is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which is
the only unforgivable sin (Mk. 3:28-30).
How can you be sure that its the Holy Spirit? There are many spirits with
various agendas. Just because it feels good for the subject doesn't verify
anything. Any spirit can make a human feel good if it serves its purposes.
Christians make a lot of pious assumptions. That's a nasty side effect of
faith.
Not all faith is good faith. Christians always assume it is. Faith can be
placed in anyone or anything. Doing so doesn't make it real or good. The
Germans placed a lot of faith in Hitler and look what happened. Assuming can
be very dangerous, as we can see from Christianity's bloody history. That's
hard proof from your very own church. You must be able to comprehend this.
I do agree with you here, that all faith is not good faith! So let us
apply the same logic that you do to tongues, and prepare to throw all
faith out as being the work of the Devil! That is what you do with
tongues, certainly, Faith has no good result, just because some seem
to think that they are now saved by Faith! Actually it is a evil spirit
of Faith that leads men to accept a lie!
Well I hope you understand that I am speaking this foolishness to
illustrate, your foolishness regarding your position on tongues! It is
not a matter of discernment to wholesale pitch all tongues out because
there are some counterfeit, which I do not doubt either! Discernment
is also a gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is soundly built and trained
by the Holy Spirit as He leads us into the Word of God, and as He Lifts
up Jesus! This in fact is one of the test of discernment, "does this
lift up Jesus?" Or is it just glorifying the individual or group
participating? I have seen where it Lifts up Jesus, and sadly where it
is just for the benefit of the one speaking!
Did the Apostle even then throw out the Gift of Tongues, or the person
doing the speaking? No, he instructed the people to instruct the
people doing the disruptive speaking that was not edifying to the whole
congregation. He also said to restore the person in a place of love
within the Body of Christ! There was no concept of stoning the
prophet, which so many seem willing to condone and participate in!
Andrew W said [Re: Tongues edify the speaker's
spirit (1 Cor. 14:4,14,17; Jude 20)]: It makes the
speaker feel high in other words. It's an
emotional outpouring. Sort of like a laughing fit.
Not at all. Tongues can be spoken quite soberly, and
can even make your spirit tremble with the holy fear
of God if they are speaking about His anger and
judgment against sin. Tongues do not arise from the
emotions of the human mind; they are purely from the
spirit, so that the mind remains completely
unaffected, whether emotionally or intellectually,
by uninterpreted tongues, because the mind cannot
understand what they mean (1 Cor. 14:14-15).
There's no such thing as "the holy fear of God". The true Creator source is
love and the Creator only puts peace into people's hearts.
And if you believe that God gets angry and is so legalistic and military
then you have fallen for the lies and distortions that have been inserted
into the Bible by humans.
Have you ever stood on the side of the Grand Canyon, and felt awe at
the view? How much more awe-ful will it be to be standing before Him
who scratched out the Grand Canyon with one stroke of His little
finger? There will be peace in His presence, for those who already know
His Peace, but there will also be awe!
Read the following webpage for a closer truth.
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
Andrew W said: Paul wanted every Christian to
speak with tongues (1 Cor. 14:5): It's good to be
multilingual.
Yes, an individual Christian can be given multiple
tongues (1 Cor. 12:10), each of which can sound like
a completely different language.
Andrew W said [Re: 1 Cor. 14:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:11-12
shows that women aren't ever to speak from their
own minds in church, whether to ask questions or
to teach]: That's an old Jewish tradition. What's
that got to do with us?
They are the commandments of the Lord (1 Cor.
Prove that it was the Lord's commandment that women must never speak in
churches ever and not just a Jewish tradition.
The Bible contains many human authored Jewish traditions. Where on earth do
you get your sweeping pious conclusions from? Don't tell me. The Bible.
14:37), based on spiritual facts (1 Tim. 2:14).
What spiritual facts?
For a start, what is a spirit? And how on earth does anyone glean a 'fact'
from it?
Its clear to any normal person that you literalist Christians live in a
superstitious biblical fairyland mind fog.
--
Andrew W.
A god who requires the bloodshed and suffering of the innocent in order to
forgive can only be an evil god, and anyone who gleefully supports this kind
of god character can only be insane.
Read 1 John 4:10, and tell me that God the Father did not delight in
the obediance of the Son, even unto death. A death that not only was
planned by God, but required!
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.fipdata.org/index.html
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
The Eastgate is Open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
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| User: "Flowerchild8245" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
28 Dec 2006 12:03:40 AM |
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gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
28 Dec 2006 11:48:00 AM |
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Flowerchild8245 wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
Hi Flowerchild, Songbook has it right!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
28 Dec 2006 12:14:23 PM |
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x-no-archive: yesOn 28 Dec 2006 09:48:00 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote:
Flowerchild8245 wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
Hi Flowerchild, Songbook has it right!
Actually, he doesn't!
In the first place, "Songbook" (Terrell) isn't even a professing
Christian! He denies the incarnation!
2ndly, there is no scriptural basis for "tongues" today, and certainly
there is no scriptural basis for " a prayer language."
john w
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
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| User: "SongBookz" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
28 Dec 2006 02:12:04 PM |
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On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:14:23 -0800, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
x-no-archive: yesOn 28 Dec 2006 09:48:00 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote:
Flowerchild8245 wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
Hi Flowerchild, Songbook has it right!
Actually, he doesn't!
In the first place, "Songbook" (Terrell) isn't even a professing
Christian! He denies the incarnation!
1. I am a professor or Christ Jesus.
2. I do not deny the incarnation nor affirm it in these groups as a
point I continue to make. That the tests you and Bible John continue
to try to apply towards believers are not valid measures of whether a
person is saved or not. How else could I get on Bible John's list?
2ndly, there is no scriptural basis for "tongues" today, and certainly
there is no scriptural basis for " a prayer language."
Come back and we'll discuss this when your demons let you read and
understand a real Bible.
T
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| User: "ujb" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
28 Dec 2006 02:52:43 PM |
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SongBookz wrote:
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:14:23 -0800, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
x-no-archive: yesOn 28 Dec 2006 09:48:00 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote:
Flowerchild8245 wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
Hi Flowerchild, Songbook has it right!
Actually, he doesn't!
In the first place, "Songbook" (Terrell) isn't even a professing
Christian! He denies the incarnation!
1. I am a professor or Christ Jesus.
2. I do not deny the incarnation nor affirm it in these groups as a
point I continue to make. That the tests you and Bible John continue
to try to apply towards believers are not valid measures of whether a
person is saved or not. How else could I get on Bible John's list?
2ndly, there is no scriptural basis for "tongues" today, and certainly
there is no scriptural basis for " a prayer language."
Come back and we'll discuss this when your demons let you read and
understand a real Bible.
T
Are you talkin to ilike@nekkidgirls.yum, the software pirate?
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
28 Dec 2006 08:42:29 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:12:04 -0600, SongBookz <noway@nothanks.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:14:23 -0800, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
x-no-archive: yesOn 28 Dec 2006 09:48:00 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote:
Flowerchild8245 wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
Hi Flowerchild, Songbook has it right!
Actually, he doesn't!
In the first place, "Songbook" (Terrell) isn't even a professing
Christian! He denies the incarnation!
1. I am a professor or Christ Jesus.
You are a liar, you are demented, and you are very likely demon
possesed!
Much of what you declare is quite demonic (what demons would say)
2. I do not deny the incarnation nor affirm it in these groups as a
point I continue to make.
And as a professional writer and proofreader for MANY years, I learned
a technique of word re-arrangement many years ago to reveal the truth
of what people hide behind many; words.
You just said,
I do not affirm the incarnation in these groups as a
point I continue to make.
That the tests you and Bible John continue
to try to apply towards believers are not valid measures of whether a
person is saved or not.
In your opinion.
Jesus claimed to be God in flesh, and spent His life proving it. When
He showed Tom His scars, Tom declared Him GOD!
And if you were a Christian, the Holy Spirit would confirm those
things for you!
How else could I get on Bible John's list?
2ndly, there is no scriptural basis for "tongues" today, and certainly
there is no scriptural basis for " a prayer language."
< snip >
T
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
29 Dec 2006 07:38:07 AM |
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On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:42:29 -0800, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
You are a liar, you are demented, and you are very likely demon
possesed!
Much of what you declare is quite demonic (what demons would say)
^^^^^more idiocy from the resident A** of Usenet......
2. I do not deny the incarnation nor affirm it in these groups as a
point I continue to make.
And as a professional writer and proofreader for MANY years,
^^more delusions! More blowing and bragging!
And if you were a Christian, the Holy Spirit would confirm those
things for you!
How else could I get on Bible John's list?
Well, whoopee.......
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| User: "SongBookz" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
28 Dec 2006 08:41:13 AM |
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On 27 Dec 2006 22:03:40 -0800, "Flowerchild8245"
<flowerchild8245@msn.com> wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
I'm not gatekeeper, but yes.
And also compare
1Co 14:2 KJVR For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not
unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the
spirit he speaketh mysteries.
to
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may
interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but
my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the
spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with
the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:13-15 KJVR
What Paul is saying here is that one can (and should) pray with
understanding and one can (and should if able) pray with the Spirit
(in tongues) and one can (and should) sing with understanding and can
(and should if able) sing with the Spirit (in tongues).
This is, of course, done in private, in the Assembly, one should not
speak out loud in tongues without an interpretor but should:
14:28b: let him speak to himself, and to God.
In other words, speak (pray) softly to oneself (under one's breath).
BUT - what the church should never do is forbid the speaking in
tongues (14:39).
On the other hand, we must also remember that tongues is a minor gift
and those who have been given the gift of tongues should not think of
themselves as somehow better than their brothers (or sisters) who have
been given other (better) gifts.
Terrell
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
28 Dec 2006 12:13:03 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:41:13 -0600, SongBookz <noway@nothanks.com>
wrote:
On 27 Dec 2006 22:03:40 -0800, "Flowerchild8245"
<flowerchild8245@msn.com> wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
I'm not gatekeeper, but yes.
And also compare
1Co 14:2 KJVR For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not
unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the
spirit he speaketh mysteries.
to
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may
interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but
my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the
spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with
the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:13-15 KJVR
What Paul is saying here is that one can (and should) pray with
understanding and one can (and should if able) pray with the Spirit
(in tongues) and one can (and should) sing with understanding and can
(and should if able) sing with the Spirit (in tongues).
That is not what Paul is saying at all.
And since you aren't in daily contact with the Holy Spirit, you truly
should keep your silence about spiritual matters!
Paul is telling them that they should not be pretending, which is what
they were doing.
There are only like 3 recorded instances where the apostles and other
believers spoke in tongues, and in every case, they were in the
presence of non-believers or new converts.
And if one momentarily applied one's MIND to the problem, there is no
rational reason why we would need a "prayer language", when God speaks
every language there is. And since God doesn't even need words.
When we pray, we communicate with God telepathically.
If He is capable of reading our thoughts and of "knowing our hearts",
any "prayer language" is an absurd thought.
And if you don't even know what you are saying, how do you know you
are praising or edifying God?
( You don't)
john w
This is, of course, done in private, in the Assembly, one should not
speak out loud in tongues without an interpretor but should:
14:28b: let him speak to himself, and to God.
In other words, speak (pray) softly to oneself (under one's breath).
BUT - what the church should never do is forbid the speaking in
tongues (14:39).
On the other hand, we must also remember that tongues is a minor gift
and those who have been given the gift of tongues should not think of
themselves as somehow better than their brothers (or sisters) who have
been given other (better) gifts.
Terrell
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| User: "SongBookz" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
28 Dec 2006 02:06:25 PM |
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On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:13:03 -0800, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:41:13 -0600, SongBookz <noway@nothanks.com>
wrote:
On 27 Dec 2006 22:03:40 -0800, "Flowerchild8245"
<flowerchild8245@msn.com> wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
I'm not gatekeeper, but yes.
And also compare
1Co 14:2 KJVR For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not
unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the
spirit he speaketh mysteries.
to
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may
interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but
my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the
spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with
the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:13-15 KJVR
What Paul is saying here is that one can (and should) pray with
understanding and one can (and should if able) pray with the Spirit
(in tongues) and one can (and should) sing with understanding and can
(and should if able) sing with the Spirit (in tongues).
That is not what Paul is saying at all.
As soon as your demons let you read and understand a real Bible, come
back and we'll talk.
T
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| User: "ujb" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
28 Dec 2006 02:52:30 PM |
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SongBookz wrote:
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:13:03 -0800, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:41:13 -0600, SongBookz <noway@nothanks.com>
wrote:
On 27 Dec 2006 22:03:40 -0800, "Flowerchild8245"
<flowerchild8245@msn.com> wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
I'm not gatekeeper, but yes.
And also compare
1Co 14:2 KJVR For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not
unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the
spirit he speaketh mysteries.
to
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may
interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but
my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the
spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with
the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:13-15 KJVR
What Paul is saying here is that one can (and should) pray with
understanding and one can (and should if able) pray with the Spirit
(in tongues) and one can (and should) sing with understanding and can
(and should if able) sing with the Spirit (in tongues).
That is not what Paul is saying at all.
As soon as your demons let you read and understand a real Bible, come
back and we'll talk.
T
Are you talkin to ilike@nekkidgirls.yum, the software pirate?
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
28 Dec 2006 08:38:05 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:06:25 -0600, SongBookz <noway@nothanks.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:13:03 -0800, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:41:13 -0600, SongBookz <noway@nothanks.com>
wrote:
On 27 Dec 2006 22:03:40 -0800, "Flowerchild8245"
<flowerchild8245@msn.com> wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
I'm not gatekeeper, but yes.
And also compare
1Co 14:2 KJVR For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not
unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the
spirit he speaketh mysteries.
to
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may
interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but
my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the
spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with
the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:13-15 KJVR
What Paul is saying here is that one can (and should) pray with
understanding and one can (and should if able) pray with the Spirit
(in tongues) and one can (and should) sing with understanding and can
(and should if able) sing with the Spirit (in tongues).
That is not what Paul is saying at all.
As soon as your demons
I don't have any demons, demoniac.
And we don't have to talk at all.
But you rail constantly that one doesn't need to accept the deity of
Jesus Christ or the reality of the TriUnity to be a Christian (which
is ludicrous), and then you want to spout on doctrine!
You are ridiculous!
T
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
29 Dec 2006 07:36:23 AM |
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On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:38:05 -0800, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
I don't have any demons, demoniac.
And we don't have to talk at all.
Yet here U R posting just the same, right, liar-johnnie? U just cannot
leave anyone alone, can U ?
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
29 Dec 2006 01:27:43 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 08:36:23 -0500, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:38:05 -0800, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
I don't have any demons, demoniac.
And we don't have to talk at all.
Yet here U R posting just the same, right, liar-johnnie?
???
Posting is not the same as conversing, Stupid Person!
U just cannot
leave anyone alone, can U ?
???
Did you leave me alone?
chuckle.
Said by the nosiest busy-body in Usenet!
;-)
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
29 Dec 2006 03:36:55 AM |
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john w wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:41:13 -0600, SongBookz <noway@nothanks.com>
wrote:
On 27 Dec 2006 22:03:40 -0800, "Flowerchild8245"
<flowerchild8245@msn.com> wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
I'm not gatekeeper, but yes.
And also compare
1Co 14:2 KJVR For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not
unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the
spirit he speaketh mysteries.
to
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may
interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but
my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the
spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with
the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:13-15 KJVR
What Paul is saying here is that one can (and should) pray with
understanding and one can (and should if able) pray with the Spirit
(in tongues) and one can (and should) sing with understanding and can
(and should if able) sing with the Spirit (in tongues).
That is not what Paul is saying at all.
And since you aren't in daily contact with the Holy Spirit, you truly
should keep your silence about spiritual matters!
I am in contact with the Holy Spirit everyday, so do you have a problem
with me speaking up about spiritual matters?
Paul is telling them that they should not be pretending, which is what
they were doing.
No, they were not pretending, they were doing something very real, but
which did not edify those who were around them in the congregation.
There are only like 3 recorded instances where the apostles and other
believers spoke in tongues, and in every case, they were in the
presence of non-believers or new converts.
So what?
And if one momentarily applied one's MIND to the problem, there is no
rational reason why we would need a "prayer language", when God speaks
every language there is. And since God doesn't even need words.
And we pray with groanings that can not be uttered. God understands
that as well, but should we not groan?
When we pray, we communicate with God telepathically.
Maybe you do, where do you get this in the scripture? You being the
man of the Word that you are, should have no problem teaching us this
bit of news.
If He is capable of reading our thoughts and of "knowing our hearts",
any "prayer language" is an absurd thought.
So then why would we ever need to pray aloud even in our own language?
Why do we Praise and sing aloud, certainly He can hear our thoughts?
And if you don't even know what you are saying, how do you know you
are praising or edifying God?
( You don't)
john w
And You don't either! Besides the small detail, that I don't recall
ever reading in the scriptures that we ever edify God. Maybe you could
also tell us your source of this brilliant information as well, Maybe
one of your Ph D's?
This is, of course, done in private, in the Assembly, one should not
speak out loud in tongues without an interpretor but should:
14:28b: let him speak to himself, and to God.
In other words, speak (pray) softly to oneself (under one's breath).
BUT - what the church should never do is forbid the speaking in
tongues (14:39).
On the other hand, we must also remember that tongues is a minor gift
and those who have been given the gift of tongues should not think of
themselves as somehow better than their brothers (or sisters) who have
been given other (better) gifts.
Terrell
If what you say about Songbookz, not believing in the incarnation is
true, then it is a testimony to his honesty, that at least on this
subject he is more truthful in his handling of the scripture than you
are, with all your PhD's! I suspect that there is more to his
understanding of the incarnation than you know about. From what I have
heard from you, all those Ph D's are not doing you much good! You
really should get a new pastor, with some different Ph D's. Maybe
listen a little harder to what they are saying! Or maybe not listen so
hard, if you are the evidence of the good fruit of their endeavors!
Their fruit stinks! A spiritual red-neck is a red-neck even if he has a
Bible in his hand!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Tongues (languages) are of God |
29 Dec 2006 02:02:08 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On 29 Dec 2006 01:36:55 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote:
john w wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:41:13 -0600, SongBookz <noway@nothanks.com>
wrote:
On 27 Dec 2006 22:03:40 -0800, "Flowerchild8245"
<flowerchild8245@msn.com> wrote:
gatekeeper wrote:
Here is a key to your misunderstanding of the purpose and operation of tongues! We are >told that a person who speaks in tongues, edifies themselves. If there is the proper >interpretation, then the tongues would edify the larger congregation that would hear the >message and understand it.
Hi Gatekeeper ( ! )
So, would you say that those who speak other languages without an
interpreter (or in their home, not in a congregation) are edifying
themselves?
I'm not gatekeeper, but yes.
And also compare
1Co 14:2 KJVR For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not
unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the
spirit he speaketh mysteries.
to
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may
interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but
my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the
spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with
the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:13-15 KJVR
What Paul is saying here is that one can (and should) pray with
understanding and one can (and should if able) pray with the Spirit
(in tongues) and one can (and should) sing with understanding and can
(and should if able) sing with the Spirit (in tongues).
That is not what Paul is saying at all.
And since you aren't in daily contact with the Holy Spirit, you truly
should keep your silence about spiritual matters!
I am in contact with the Holy Spirit everyday,
No, you are not. If you were, you would not be PRETENDING to
1. speak in tongues
2. pray in tongues
so do you have a problem
with me speaking up about spiritual matters?
You can talk about whatever you like.
And every time I see you deceiving people, I will jump on you!
Paul is telling them that they should not be pretending, which is what
they were doing.
No, they were not pretending,
Yes, they were pretending!
And I don't recognize your authority to speak on the subject. How
many Ph Ds and Th Ds come after your name?
How many books of the Bible have you translated for which
translation?
they were doing something very real, but
which did not edify those who were around them in the congregation.
Do you show ALL these signs, as Jesus prophesied? Or do you just 'show
the SHOWY sign" of "speaking in tongues?"
MK 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the
good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be
saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these
signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out
demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes
with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt
them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will
get well."
Do you pick up deadly snakes and not die of snake bites?
Do you drink deadly poison and it doesn't kill you?
Do you lay hands on the sick and dying (and the dead), and you raise
them back to health?
--
When you speak in tongues, is there a tongue of fire on your head?
Is there the sound of the mighty, rushing wind (a hurricane) when you
speak in tongues?
AC 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one
place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from
heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw
what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on
each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began
to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
AC 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from
every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came
together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his
own language. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who
are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in
his own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of
Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and
Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from
Rome
11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them
declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" <
12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this
mean?"
I ask you, sir, what foreign language are you given when you "speak in
tongues?"
Do you speak German, or perhaps French? Do you Speak Swahili, or
perhaps you speak Farsi ? Do you speak Russian, or perhaps you speak
Hindi?
--
AC 19:4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He
told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in
Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the
Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came
on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about
twelve men in all.
How did the people in attendance at this meeting know that these new
Christians (these gentiles) had prophesied (foretold the future) ?
Because they were speaking in a language that was UNDERSTOOD.
--
Do ALL new Christians "speak in tongues"?
No.
1CO 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given
for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the
message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the
same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts
of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to
another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to
another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another
the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and
the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
--
To oen is given wisdom.
To another, prophesy
To another, knowledge
To another, healing,
To another, the distinguishing of unclean spirits
To another, the speaking in different language
To anohter, the interpretation
No one person has ALL the above gifts. With the exception of
the apostles.
Since there have been no apostles since the 1st C, no one today has
ALL the sign gifts.
And I ask AGAIN, if the sign gifts are in use today,
show me sign gifts!
You cannot.
--
And there would be a time when tongues would cease.
1CO 13:8 Love never fails.
But where there are prophecies, they will cease;
where there are tongues, they will be stilled;
where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
Prophesy has ceased (no one is being given special information about
the future.
If prophesy has ceased, knowledge has as well. (no one is now writing
scripture. that book is CLOSED)
If prophesy and knowledge are gone (they are), then tongues are gone
as well.
If prophesy and knowledge still exist, then please write a new book or
two for the Bible.
There are a few hundred questions I would like asked.
You want so much to believe in signs, because they make you feel so
special.
I feel special, and I don't delude myself into believing in signs.
And why do you IGNORE perhaps the most important verse in the entire
Bible regarding tongues?
1CO 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for
unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.
If you and 30 of your buddies get up in "church" and babble
incoherently, what unbelievers are edified?
Rather than being edified, those unbelievers are going to think you're
insane!
If you want an unbeliever to be edified, then you should speak in a
known language that he knows that you don't know.
For instance, if the guy behind you is German, and he speaks fluent
German, than yuo need to speak to him in German, presuming that you
have never learned German.
Any other "tongues" is a fraud.
There are only like 3 recorded instances where the apostles and other
believers spoke in tongues, and in every case, they were in the
presence of non-believers or new converts.
So what?
So we are to study the Bible and understand it. Paul said that no
teaching that is contrary to the scriptures is sound teaching.
And you are now preaching/ teaching CONTRARY to scripture.
Sad that you proclaim yourself such a spiritual giant, and you don't
understand the significance of scripture!
That says a great deal!
Jesus is going to say to you, "I had prophets and apostles spill their
precious blood to leave you my letters and instructions, and then you
didn't bother to read it and learn it!" ???
And if one momentarily applied one's MIND to the problem, there is no
rational reason why we would need a "prayer language", when God speaks
every language there is. And since God doesn't even need words.
And we pray with groanings that can not be uttered. God understands
that as well, but should we not groan?
????????
Again, you show utterly NO understanding or even KNOWLEDGE of
scripture. You are now misquoting. The text says that the Holy Spirit
groans with moans and groans too deep to be uttered when He prays on
your behalf!
If YOU say, "ugh!" You have uttered!
RO 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
We do not know what we ought to pray for,
but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans
that words cannot express.
The Holy Spirit intercedes for us, and HE groans in ways OUR WORDS
CANNOT EXPRESS.
27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit,
He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the HOLY SPIRIT.
because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's
will.
If you were actually a student of the Bible as you ought to be, you
wouldn't be so easy to mislead and confuse.
You think you're quoting, but you're misquoting, which is how you are
deceived and dragged into cults!
When we pray, we communicate with God telepathically.
Maybe you do, where do you get this in the scripture?
?????
Are you truly that confused?
If you pray "in your heart" (as I do, and as many others do daily),
you are "praying silently". If you are praying silently, then God
must (and is able) read your MIND.
If God is reading your mind, and if God is also talking to you IN YOUR
MIND, then you are creating NON-VERBALLY, with your THOUGHTS.
That, sir, is the precise definition of "communicating
telepathically."
Simply because you haven't heard the concept in your "church" does not
mean it's not a worthy concept.
You being the
man of the Word that you are, should have no problem teaching us this
bit of news.
This is so sad. You are in a cult, sir. In other words, the ONLY
people you are allowing to teach you are more confused than you are!
IF you pray silently, kneeling by your bed at night, what do you call
"silent prayer?"
I call it "telepathy."
If He is capable of reading our thoughts and of "knowing our hearts",
any "prayer language" is an absurd thought.
So then why would we ever need to pray aloud even in our own language?
There are those who believe that praying out loud lets Satan know (and
others) that we are praying, and that we are not ashamed.
It is also good for our pastors to lead the congregation in prayer.
When the pastor leads the congregation in prayer, he must necessarily
pray aloud.
I know no such REQUIREMENT that one must pray out loud or quietly.
I see the NEED for both.
There are certainly thoughts I would want to express, my deepest
concerns, my deepest needs, taht I don't need to or want to or wish to
express out loud, because Satan may be (likely is) listening.
I am also concerned that you don't even seem to understand the basics!
Why do we Praise and sing aloud, certainly He can hear our thoughts?
We ARE commanded to sing praises to Him!
And now you are simply being silly, and attempting to mock me.
And if you don't even know what you are saying, how do you know you
are praising or edifying God?
( You don't)
john w
And You don't either!
?????? Talk about a dangling remark! "YOu don't either!" What?
Besides the small detail, that I don't recall
ever reading in the scriptures that we ever edify God. Maybe you could
also tell us your source of this brilliant information as well, Maybe
one of your Ph D's?
The Ph Ds I refer to, sir, are the teachers I've studied under the
past 60 YEARS.
You give me a list of the 50 Ph Ds you've studied with, and I'll give
you my list.
I'll make it easy. Give me your list of 25 Ph Ds you've studied with,
men who read the Hebrew and Greek, the Translators.
I'll make it easier than that, even. Give me 10 scholars.
Have you ever even met Dr Jack Hayford?
I have.
And while you are giving me your list of scholars, think about this:
Every single apostle studied with The Master Teacher.
That is why we go to seminary. So that that level of knowledge can
be HANDED DOWN.
In that regard, "apostolic succession" (in the sense of the
knowledge being handed down) is very scriptural!
This is, of course, done in private, in the Assembly, one should not
speak out loud in tongues without an interpretor but should:
14:28b: let him speak to himself, and to God.
In other words, speak (pray) softly to oneself (under one's breath).
BUT - what the church should never do is forbid the speaking in
tongues (14:39).
And when was that written? In the 1st Century!
And if you believe that everything that applied in the 1st Century
applies today, do you own any property?
If you own any property, why ?
You were supposed to (commanded by Jesus Himself) to sell EVERYTHING
you own!
On the other hand, we must also remember that tongues is a minor gift
and those who have been given the gift of tongues should not think of
themselves as somehow better than their brothers (or sisters) who have
been given other (better) gifts.
Terrell
If what you say about Songbookz, not believing in the incarnation is
true, then it is a testimony to his honesty, that at least on this
subject he is more truthful in his handling of the scripture than you
are, with all your PhD's!
????????????????????
That he is "truthful" in DENYING the deity of Christ is not to his
credit.
That you think that is admirable merely proves that you are not a
Christian!
john w
snip
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