On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 21:37:38 -0400,
TonyCliftonReturns@webtv.net (Tony Clifton) spake
thusly:
Please do not hit your "Reply" button, until
you have read this whole message and
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE,
since SO MUCH hinges on this subject,
PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT just blow
through this message, but rather, read it
carefully, considering that you have defended
me in the past, because you know how faithful
I am to God's word and so, you know also,
that I would never say something like this,
unless I believed deeply and truly in my heart
that God's word taught it and that I am not easily
convinced and that I would never intentionally
contradict God.
You know in your heart that I love the Lord and so
please read it with the understanding that I love
God's word and don't reject any of it, no matter
what it seems like to you right now. Let my history
that you exclaimed, be your guide to your reading
of my posts with you on this subject, okay?
Fair enough?
..
I.e., So whether you think me crazy or not, I ask
you in the name of brotherly love and because
you know I am devoted, to please take that
into account, in your reading of my response.
Dear Pastor Dave,
I defend you most of the time on this group,
And I appreciate that you are dedicated to truth
and not to "friends". I really do, my brother. :)
however I just read one of your post. Correct me
if I am wrong, but if you are saying Christ has
already returned that is simply CRAZY.
Then prove it. Again, don't hit that "Reply" button.
Let me finish, my brother! :)
And I will correct you. :)
The bible does clearly teach Christ return
to this earth at the end of the age.
You mean, "clear to what you have been taught".
Frankly, what you have been taught does not take
Scripture into account and most of the people who
teach this stuff, are not anywhere near capable of
defending it, but since the modern churches teach
the same falsehood, they've never had to. But I
have had more than one stuttering pastor in front
of me, over the last few years, who could not defend
it when challenged and the typical arguments were
refuted. Not that I seek to make fools of them, mind
you, but it is our mission to correct where necessary
and I am willing to be corrected by you, if you feel
that you can do that. Again, fair enough? :)
And btw, that age ended in the first century and
that's what the Bible teaches. You simply have
not had your eyes opened to looking for them
and have read them many times and have not
seen it. Hmmm,,,. interesting claim, huh? :)
Yes it will be seen by every eye.
Can I assume that you mean every eye on Earth?
Prove it.
Christ will bodily return.
By this, I assume you mean bodily and physically.
Prove it.
The angels said as Christ ascended,
And this is where you get your chance.
Here is what is required.
1) Provide the Scriptures.
2) Explain in your own words, why and how the
Scriptures support what you believe they do.
Just quoting them is not enough, since you
would be telling a pastor who has read them
hundreds of time, that he hasn't read them
and that what you believe is automatically right,
even though you haven't explained what you believe.
And we both know, that smacks of arrogance. :)
I.e., Just because you quote a Scripture, that
does not mean that what you believe about it is
correct, no matter how obvious IT SEEMS TO YOU.
And please don't tell me that you don't want to
argue, etc., because I am not looking to argue
either. But if you didn't wish to discuss the issue,
then frankly, you shouldn't have jumped in to tell
me I'm a heretic (see below, which proves that I have
read your post before responding, no?), don't you
agree? I mean, that is quite a claim and it isn't like
you should expect me to ignore such a claim, don't
you agree? :)
Now I am not trying to be unkind,
Nor am I, so please don't take my comments
as an insult.
but if you are teaching Christ has returned
and he is not coming in the future it is you
who is teaching heresy.
I am teaching that and now you have claimed
that I am a heretic.
That DEMANDS PROOF!
PROVE THAT I AM A HERETIC!
No, I am not angry. :) But that claim of yours
definitely needed a response that lets you know
that claiming that, without proof, is like my
claiming that you fornicate and that just because
I said so, that is good enough. :)
I am willing to discuss this with you, but I have
three rules.
1) State your specific beliefs. That means
specific, not general. Tell me, in a sequence of
events (and whether physical, or spiritual (unseen))
how you believe it all unfolds. I do not wish to
ascribe to you any beliefs that you do not hold. :)
2) Quote the Scriptures.
3) Explain to me, in your own words (web pages
are not acceptable), what you think each Scripture
that you quote says. If you can't prove your beliefs
on your own, then you should question why you
believe them and if you can't support them, then
how can you say that I should believe them?
So explain to me, HOW AND WHY the passages
support what you say. Anyone can quote passages.
That doesn't mean that you are right in your
interpretation of them. And don't say it isn't your
interpretation, because once again, that says that
you cannot possibly be wrong and since you aren't
God, that argument doesn't work. :)
And I absolutely DEMAND that you respond
to each and EVERY point I make, directly and
specifically. Ignoring points that you make, or
that I make, is not acceptable and it only shows
that someone has conceded the point, don't
you think? :)
And just so you know, I have proved before, that
my belief was the belief of the historic Christian
church and I have proved that this end times
stuff that you believe, got popular in the early
1800's, when Darby made Dispensationalism
popular. I have also proved that the Rapture
was something made popular when Scofield
included it in his garbage (as almost every good
scholar knows) "Scofield Study Bible", in 1830.
I have proved all three of these things. So before
you start pointing your finger at me, remember
that I am not the one claiming that the church
was lost on this issue for 1800 years, because
you claim you're right and that anybody who
reads the Bible would know that. :)
The Apostles taught that the "last days" were in
the first century and that they were living in them.
I can prove this (but won't, until you prove your
claims).
Jesus and the Apostles preached a return within
that generation. That is clear from Scripture. I
can prove this (but won't, until you prove your
claims).
And FYI, what I do not accept, is people who
finally recognize and admit that, claiming that
it is not that important anyway (WHICH IS WHAT
ALWAYS, ALWAYS HAPPENS, since I have
proved these things before), especially when
they spend so much time on the issue and way
too many books are purchased on this subject
for them to say this and especially since it would
mean that I am being told that I should trust my
Bible and that what the Apostles said is God's
word and yet, that they got that issue of what time
frame Jesus would return in all wrong. That is a
ridiculous argument, don't you agree? :)
And bear in mind, before you respond by saying
that Jesus said no one knows when He would
return, that is not true.
Jesus said no one knows THE DAY and that
no one knows THE HOUR. That is all one can
honestly glean from His statement.
I.e., No one knows exactly which DAY on the calendar
and no one knows exactly which hour within THAT day.
Anything else, is our adding to it and He did say
which generation (Matthew 24:34).
Again, that is not an attack and I am willing to
discuss this in a very friendly way, but you need
to prove your case and the reason I said that
web pages are not acceptible, is because I can
quote just as many as you do and that would be
fruitless and it doesn't show me that YOU can
support YOUR beliefs. Does a post with a dozen
web pages sound like a Biblical discussion between
brothers to you? :) Surely not! <laugh!> :)
But let me say that I do not mind if you quote web
pages that are your own words, but please, copy and
paste the relevant text into your message. Otherwise,
when I respond, it looks like I am responding to things
you haven't yet said and others might be watching and I
don't wish to appear to be crazy, responding to the
voices in my head! <LAUGH!!!> :)
Now remember, YOU posted to me, stating that
I am a heretic and that YOUR beliefs are true,
So prove them to be such.
And yes, you did call me a heretic, by stating that
I am posting heresy. But don't worry, my brother.
I did not take offense and I COMPLETELY
understood HOW you meant the word. :)
They have claimed that they do and then, have
resorted to personal attacks when I refuted
their arguments and them had the gall to run
around usenet, claiming they whooped my butt!
<laugh>
Now I don't see it as an ***** kicking context,
but if they did whoop my butt, then I hope that
you know that I would submit to God's word.
I hope that you believe that about me and I think
that you do, because you know that I know, that
I am NOT ABOVE GOD'S WORD!!!
Then of course, come the personal attacks and
the chasing me around the groups, attacking me
any way they think they can, to try to get other
people to avoid listening to me. Again, if they proved
their case, they wouldn't have to do that, since I
would submit to God's holy, infallible word!
I'm sorry if this text is a bit out of order in its
statements. I added and edited before sending
and it's a bit late, so I may have missed moving a
couple of paragraphs into their correct positions.
Forgive me or shoot me. Your choice. :)
I remind you of the following verse...
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready always to give an answer to
every man that asketh you a reason of
the hope that is in you with meekness
and fear:" - 1 Peter 3:15
So go ahead, win your brother. :)
Anyway, my brother, do you agree to these terms?
I hope so, because no one has been able to do
so yet. But you have been a reasonable individual
and so, I think maybe you can do this. :)
I restate the terms for you....
I have some questions for you...
Are you saying the following...
1) Jesus has not returned yet.
2) Every eye in the world will see Jesus return.
3) The Rapture is taught in the Bible.
And before you respond with verses, remember
what I said above and also remember, that saying
that you take passages literally, will tell me why you
read it as you do, but it won't explain why you take
them literally. And quoting another verse does not
mean that I should take either of them literally. :)
Am I correct in assuming that you believe
that at some future date, Jesus will return
visibly and physically, that every eye on
Earth will see Him and that then the
world wide resurrection will take place?
Do you also believe in a future, world wide
tribulation? And if so, is your belief that it
is pre, mid, or post tribulation?
And to touch on the three rules that I mentioned, which
I'm sure you will agree are fair to both sides, I will
say that there is one thing that I absolutely will not
tolerate. And that is when I quote a Scripture and
give an explanation, that in response, instead of
dealing with the Scripture I quoted and the points that
I made, that instead, you quote another verse, as if it
proves me wrong. The reason I will not tolerate that,
is because what you would be doing at that point, is
to pit Scripture against Scripture.
And let me say this, my brother... I find that the
"end timers" (no offense, just a term used to note
those who believe in a future, psychical return of
Christ) always have an ego issue. I.e, they feel that
if the Bible is not all about them and their
generation, that it is of no use at all. And please
don't say, "It may not be my generation, but one
following it, when we both know that you and they spend
their time and money, to buy into the fact that it's
all about you/them. (:
The fact is, I had one person say, "If the Bible isn't
about us, then what good is it?".
And while you might say that you aren't saying that,
the fact is, that if the prophecies aren't at least
possibly about our generation, then I would bet my life
that you don't see the usefulness of the Bible, no
matter what you may say, to convince yourself that you
don't feel that way.
For me, the Bible is even more valuable, if it has all
happened, because you see, that shows that Christ
fulfilled His promises and the atheists have nowhere to
go. :) That isn't why I believe they have been
fulfilled, but that is the result. :)
And while the end timers (who claim not to do this)
cheer for the destruction of the world and the Rapture,
so THEY don't have to DIE, because no matter what they
say, they are afraid of death, Christ's Kingdom is here
NOW and we are called to live in it!
Since when has praying for the evil to have no more
chance left, a good Christian thing? And yet, that is
what they pray for, along with a third Jewish Temple,
which the Scripture NEVER TEACHES, even though it would
spit in the face of God and even though He destroyed
the last one for a reason, the "end timers" LOOK
FORWARD to this!
Anyway, enough ranting from anger! <LOL!> :)
What I mean is, if I quote a Scripture that shows
support for my point of view and you quote one that
seems to say the opposite, you are not proving your
belief. What you are saying, IF YOU DO NOT ADDRESS
the one I posted, is that the Scripture that I quoted
is wrong, because of the one you just quoted.
Thus, you ABSOLUTELY MUST deal with BOTH the
Scriptures that I posted AND the explanations thereof
and show why BOTH are wrong.
Now have no fear I must ALSO do the same. :)
But again, you called me a heretic, so the burden of
proof is one you. Had you just said, "Prove it", then
I would be obligated. But you made an accusation of
heresy and heck, even the evil Inquisitors knew they
had to have proof of heresy, so go ahead brother, prove
me a heretic! :) I won't get mad. If you prove your
case, I promise, I will believe you and convert to your
way of thinking.
But again, clear and convincing proof from the
Scriptures and your own words, explaining why
I should believe they say what you believe they say.
Are we agreed, my brother?
1) State your specific beliefs. That means
specific, not general. Tell me, in a sequence of
events (and whether physical, or spiritual (unseen))
how you believe it all unfolds. I do not wish to
ascribe to you any beliefs that you do not hold. :)
2) Quote the Scriptures.
3) Explain to me, in your own words (web pages
are not acceptible), what you think each Scripture
that you quote says. If you can't prove your beliefs
on your own, then you should question why you
believe them and if you can't support them, then
how can you say that I should believe them?
So explain to me, HOW AND WHY the passages
support what you say. Anyone can quote passages.
That doesn't mean that you are right in your
interpretation of them. And don't say it isn't your
interpretation, because once again, that says that
you cannot possibly be wrong and since you aren't
God, that argument doesn't work. :)
And I absolutely DEMAND that you respond
to each and EVERY point I make, directly and
specifically. Ignoring points that you make, or
that I make, is not acceptible and it only shows
that someone has conceded the point, don't
you think? :)
I look forward to your reply. I believe that you
and I (if we ignore others) will have a truly
interesting dialog! :)
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
"The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree;
he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon. Those that
are planted in the house of Jehovah shall flourish
in the courts of our God." - Psalm 92:12-13
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