| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Gactimus" |
| Date: |
30 Sep 2004 10:44:47 PM |
| Object: |
Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power. Nobody
has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody has seen a
person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and radio waves are
invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see their results.
Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if you get
right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. "I may have broken the Ten Commandments, but I do good things for
people. If God is fair, the scales will balance."
One look at "Hollywood morality" should dispel this one. They commit
adultery in their youth, and then become involved in giving to AIDS
research, etc., as they grow older. In their minds, they think that they
are balancing the scales. They have done bad, and now they are doing good.
It doesn't work that way, even before an imperfect judge in a secular
courtroom – if the judge is honest. An effort to bribe the judge with good
works is still a bribe.
If you compare yourself with other human beings, you might be better than
some, but worse than others.
But God has to judge us on the basis of His righteous character, which we
have violated. This is why He gave us the "Big Ten." They show us how good
we would have to be to earn God's acceptance by our own good deeds. This is
why God cannot judge on the "curve." God says, "Whoever keeps the whole
law, yet offends in one point is guilty of all of it." (James 2:10)
Since none of us could ever be good enough to measure up to His perfect
character, God elected to come to Earth in the person of Jesus Christ and
die in our place under His offended righteous character. In so doing, God
purchased a pardon for every person. We only have to admit we have broken
His laws, turn to God and accept His free pardon.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. "Christianity is oppressive to women."
This objection comes up in confusing the context of the Christian model for
marriage. Ephesians 5:22 says, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own
husbands, as unto the Lord." But the skeptic's objection collapses when the
passage is taken in its full context.
Ephesians 5:25 commands husbands, "Husbands, love your wives, even as
Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself for it."
It is hardly "oppression" to submit to someone who loves you with a
sacrificial love. Instead, it is a textbook definition of love – a key
ingredient to a successful marriage.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. "The Bible was written by men."
As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter, are
you writing it, or is the pen? As I type this column, am I writing it, or
is my computer? Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is the instrument, not
the writer. The same principle applies to the writers of Scripture. They
were instruments, but God's Spirit is the author.
The Bible declares of itself that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of
God." (2 Timothy 3:16) and the proof is in the pudding. The writers of
Scripture ranged from shepherds to kings to fishermen, but the 66 books
that make up the Bible read as a single, harmonious narrative emanating
from a Single Author.
God threw down the gauntlet concerning how to know whether His Word is true
or not. God said to Moses, "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know
when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' If what a prophet
proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is
a message the LORD has not spoken." (Deut. 18:21-22 NIV)
Every prophecy made in the Bible about specific events, places and times
have come true to the letter. Some are not yet fulfilled because it is not
yet the time. But the record in history is 100 percent accuracy. This is
why we have only the books in the Bible that have been authenticated by
fulfilled prophecy. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled in the birth,
life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. "Churches are full of hypocrites."
The word "hypocrite" comes from the Greek word for "actor" or "pretender."
Hypocrisy is "the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that
one does not hold."
The Body of Christ consists of true believers – "churches" are buildings
where people congregate. Sitting in a church no more makes one a Christian
than sitting in a garage makes one a car.
Jesus will sort out the true believers from the pretenders in His time. The
question is not what church you go to, but rather, whom do you trust for
your salvation? A church? Or Jesus Christ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. "Christians think they are better than non-Christians."
This is another objection borne out of ignorance of both the teaching of
Scripture and the nature of salvation. Nowhere do the Scriptures say that a
Christian is a better person than a non-Christian. A believer in Jesus is a
forgiven sinner. The unbeliever is not forgiven. But a true Christian knows
that he is forgiven by the unmerited grace of God.
Peter betrayed Jesus by denying Him three times. Judas betrayed Him only
once. But Peter is infinitely better off. Peter believed and was forgiven.
Judas did not.
Two murderers were crucified alongside Jesus. One repented and expressed
his faith by saying, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Jesus immediately replied, "Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me
in Paradise."
By way of analogy, consider two skydivers. One has a working parachute; the
other does not. That doesn't make the skydiver with a working parachute a
better skydiver. But he is certainly wiser than the other guy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. "There is too much suffering in the world for there to be a loving God."
The Bible tells us that God cursed the Earth because of Adam's
transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot
be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation.
Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new
Heaven and a new Earth "wherein dwells righteousness."
In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease or
death. If it didn't exist here, then its abolition then would be
meaningless. The sacrifice of Christ would be unnecessary.
A loving God? John 15:13 says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a
man lay down his life for his friends."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
8. "Christianity isn't fair. What about all those people who have never
heard the Gospel? Will they all go to Hell because they haven't heard about
Jesus Christ?"
No one will be lost because he hasn't heard of Jesus. God says, "The wrath
of God is being revealed from Heaven against all the godlessness and
wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what
may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities – his
eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)
He also promises, "You will seek Me and find me when you search for Me with
all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
You see, God brings everyone to "God-consciousness" through the witness of
creation. When a person anywhere, in any culture comes to God-consciousness
– and then desires to know this God, He will move Heaven and Earth to get
the true message to him. If he dies without hearing about Jesus Christ,
it's because he did not want to know the true God.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
9. I've tried to read the Bible. I can't understand it.
The Scriptures tells us that the "natural man" cannot understand the things
of the Spirit of God. Most Americans would find it difficult to understand
the Chinese language. However, a child who is born into a Chinese family
can understand every word.
Every person is born physically alive, but spiritually dead. God is a
"Spirit" and we must have the same kind of life to perceive Him. This is
why Jesus said to a very religious man, "Unless a man is born from above,
he cannot perceive the things of God."
When even an uneducated person believes in Jesus and is born spiritually,
he can immediately begin to understand the Bible.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
10. Christians are sinners, according to their own teaching. So what is the
difference between a Christian who sins and a non-believer?
This objection misses the point. A Christian receives a new nature and the
Spirit of God comes to dwell in him it at the point of the "new spiritual
birth." He still has an old nature that wants to sin. When the Christian
fails to say no to temptation and depend upon God's Spirit, he sins.
The difference, however, is that a Christian cannot be happy anymore living
in sin. He becomes miserable and wants to return to fellowship with God. As
soon as he confesses his sin to God, he is forgiven and brought back into
fellowship. But though the Christian can get out of fellowship, he cannot
lose his relationship with God. That has been secured forever by the death
of Jesus Christ in his place. God will not disown a child that He purchased
with His own blood.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 10 reasons for not being a Christian, therefore, are really 10 reasons
why, if you haven't already, you should be on your knees – right now –
receive the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased by dying in your place.
You won't become perfect in this life, but you will have new desires and
power that will make you progressively better. And at the end, you will go
to be with God forever.
.
|
|
| User: "Raymond E. Griffith" |
|
| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
01 Oct 2004 01:32:12 PM |
|
|
"Gactimus" <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:Po47d.5448$Fw5.2790@news01.roc.ny...
1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power. Nobody
has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody has seen a
person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and radio waves are
invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see their results.
Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if you
get
right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.
Let's see. You have never seen the Real Easter Bunny. But you have seen
witnesses to his work (eggs in the grass). Do you therefore Believe (TM) in
the Easter Bunny?
Or how about Zeus? You haven't seen him, but you have seen the lightning! Do
you therefore believe in Zeus? Having never seen Zeus is no reason for
disbelieving in him, especially if you have seen the lightning he throws.
(sigh)
You are right, you need to do better. I am a believer, and yet I find your
arguments entirely unrepresentative of those who do not believe. And how do
you think you are going to convince others of God with such drivel?
But I have the feeling that you did not write this yourself. Did you get it
from some lame website?
(Snip remainder)
Raymond E. Griffith
.
|
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
|
| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
01 Oct 2004 10:05:49 PM |
|
|
"Gactimus" <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:Po47d.5448$Fw5.2790@news01.roc.ny...
1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
The right question is "No one has ever seen, smelled, tasted, touched, or
heard god, so why am I wasting my time thinking about it?"
*snip lunacy*
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. "I may have broken the Ten Commandments, but I do good things for
people. If God is fair, the scales will balance."
The right question is "the ten commandments are lame fiction, so why don't I
go have coffee and read about those wacky Hollywood stars instead?"
*snip lunacy with some unintentional comic value*
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. "Christianity is oppressive to women."
the right question is "christianity is oppressive, don't you think?"
*snip pompous crap*
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. "The Bible was written by men."
the right question is "the bible was written by con-men, don't you think?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. "Churches are full of hypocrites."
that's true
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. "Christians think they are better than non-Christians."
The right question is "Christians are indistiguishable from Muslims, don't
you think?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. "There is too much suffering in the world for there to be a loving
God."
Well I sure am suffering knowing that there are people as stupid as you, no
offence.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
8. "Christianity isn't fair. What about all those people who have never
heard the Gospel? Will they all go to Hell because they haven't heard
about
Jesus Christ?"
Why would I think there's a hell if I'm not a christian?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
9. I've tried to read the Bible. I can't understand it.
I don't have that problem. This guy begat that guy, another guy owned 17
sheep, a burning talking bush appears every now and then. What's not to
understand?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
10. Christians are sinners, according to their own teaching. So what is
the
difference between a Christian who sins and a non-believer?
I think you've strayed off track. These are not the top 10 reasons for not
being a christian. You tried to fool me! I think you're trying to get me to
be a christian, you little devil you!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 10 reasons for not being a Christian, therefore, are really 10 reasons
why, if you haven't already, you should be on your knees - right now -
receive the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased by dying in your place.
Is this some sexual thing? Because I like women. "The gift of pardon," is
that what the priests say to the altar boys?
You won't become perfect in this life, but you will have new desires and
power that will make you progressively better. And at the end, you will go
to be with God forever.
Will I have the power to become invisible? Or fly? That would be cool. X-ray
vision? That could be gross, maybe not. We'll talk, okay?
.
|
|
|
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| User: "VoiceOfReason" |
|
| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
02 Oct 2004 12:06:10 PM |
|
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Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote in message news:<Po47d.5448$Fw5.2790@news01.roc.ny>...
<some snippages>
1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
Faith.
2. "I may have broken the Ten Commandments, but I do good things for
people. If God is fair, the scales will balance."
Maybe. Do you regret breaking one or more of them? If not...
3. "Christianity is oppressive to women."
Nope.
4. "The Bible was written by men."
So what?
5. "Churches are full of hypocrites."
Nonsense. Most church-going people are not hypocrites. And one need
not go to church to be a hypocrite.
6. "Christians think they are better than non-Christians."
Again, not all Christians have that character flaw. Those that do are
fools.
7. "There is too much suffering in the world for there to be a loving God."
Ain't going there - way too much for a single UseNet post. :-)
8. "Christianity isn't fair. What about all those people who have never
heard the Gospel? Will they all go to Hell because they haven't heard about
Jesus Christ?"
No.
9. I've tried to read the Bible. I can't understand it.
So read something else. If you have questions ask your pastor or take
some religious study classes.
10. Christians are sinners, according to their own teaching. So what is the
difference between a Christian who sins and a non-believer?
Having a standard of behavior to aspire to. It doesn't mean anyone
will ever be perfect - that's an impossibility. But we can make an
attempt to be better to each other in our daily lives.
.
|
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| User: "L.Roberts" |
|
| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
01 Oct 2004 09:02:08 PM |
|
|
Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote in message news:<Po47d.5448$Fw5.2790@news01.roc.ny>...
1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power. Nobody
has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody has seen a
person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and radio waves are
invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see their results.
Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if you get
right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. "I may have broken the Ten Commandments, but I do good things for
people. If God is fair, the scales will balance."
One look at "Hollywood morality" should dispel this one. They commit
adultery in their youth, and then become involved in giving to AIDS
research, etc., as they grow older. In their minds, they think that they
are balancing the scales. They have done bad, and now they are doing good.
It doesn't work that way, even before an imperfect judge in a secular
courtroom ? if the judge is honest. An effort to bribe the judge with good
works is still a bribe.
If you compare yourself with other human beings, you might be better than
some, but worse than others.
But God has to judge us on the basis of His righteous character, which we
have violated. This is why He gave us the "Big Ten." They show us how good
we would have to be to earn God's acceptance by our own good deeds. This is
why God cannot judge on the "curve." God says, "Whoever keeps the whole
law, yet offends in one point is guilty of all of it." (James 2:10)
Since none of us could ever be good enough to measure up to His perfect
character, God elected to come to Earth in the person of Jesus Christ and
die in our place under His offended righteous character. In so doing, God
purchased a pardon for every person. We only have to admit we have broken
His laws, turn to God and accept His free pardon.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. "Christianity is oppressive to women."
This objection comes up in confusing the context of the Christian model for
marriage. Ephesians 5:22 says, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own
husbands, as unto the Lord." But the skeptic's objection collapses when the
passage is taken in its full context.
Ephesians 5:25 commands husbands, "Husbands, love your wives, even as
Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself for it."
It is hardly "oppression" to submit to someone who loves you with a
sacrificial love. Instead, it is a textbook definition of love ? a key
ingredient to a successful marriage.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. "The Bible was written by men."
As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter, are
you writing it, or is the pen? As I type this column, am I writing it, or
is my computer? Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is the instrument, not
the writer. The same principle applies to the writers of Scripture. They
were instruments, but God's Spirit is the author.
The Bible declares of itself that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of
God." (2 Timothy 3:16) and the proof is in the pudding. The writers of
Scripture ranged from shepherds to kings to fishermen, but the 66 books
that make up the Bible read as a single, harmonious narrative emanating
from a Single Author.
God threw down the gauntlet concerning how to know whether His Word is true
or not. God said to Moses, "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know
when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' If what a prophet
proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is
a message the LORD has not spoken." (Deut. 18:21-22 NIV)
Every prophecy made in the Bible about specific events, places and times
have come true to the letter. Some are not yet fulfilled because it is not
yet the time. But the record in history is 100 percent accuracy. This is
why we have only the books in the Bible that have been authenticated by
fulfilled prophecy. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled in the birth,
life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. "Churches are full of hypocrites."
The word "hypocrite" comes from the Greek word for "actor" or "pretender."
Hypocrisy is "the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that
one does not hold."
The Body of Christ consists of true believers ? "churches" are buildings
where people congregate. Sitting in a church no more makes one a Christian
than sitting in a garage makes one a car.
Jesus will sort out the true believers from the pretenders in His time. The
question is not what church you go to, but rather, whom do you trust for
your salvation? A church? Or Jesus Christ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. "Christians think they are better than non-Christians."
This is another objection borne out of ignorance of both the teaching of
Scripture and the nature of salvation. Nowhere do the Scriptures say that a
Christian is a better person than a non-Christian. A believer in Jesus is a
forgiven sinner. The unbeliever is not forgiven. But a true Christian knows
that he is forgiven by the unmerited grace of God.
Peter betrayed Jesus by denying Him three times. Judas betrayed Him only
once. But Peter is infinitely better off. Peter believed and was forgiven.
Judas did not.
Two murderers were crucified alongside Jesus. One repented and expressed
his faith by saying, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Jesus immediately replied, "Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me
in Paradise."
By way of analogy, consider two skydivers. One has a working parachute; the
other does not. That doesn't make the skydiver with a working parachute a
better skydiver. But he is certainly wiser than the other guy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. "There is too much suffering in the world for there to be a loving God."
The Bible tells us that God cursed the Earth because of Adam's
transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot
be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation.
Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new
Heaven and a new Earth "wherein dwells righteousness."
In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease or
death. If it didn't exist here, then its abolition then would be
meaningless. The sacrifice of Christ would be unnecessary.
A loving God? John 15:13 says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a
man lay down his life for his friends."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
8. "Christianity isn't fair. What about all those people who have never
heard the Gospel? Will they all go to Hell because they haven't heard about
Jesus Christ?"
No one will be lost because he hasn't heard of Jesus. God says, "The wrath
of God is being revealed from Heaven against all the godlessness and
wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what
may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities ? his
eternal power and divine nature ? have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)
He also promises, "You will seek Me and find me when you search for Me with
all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
You see, God brings everyone to "God-consciousness" through the witness of
creation. When a person anywhere, in any culture comes to God-consciousness
? and then desires to know this God, He will move Heaven and Earth to get
the true message to him. If he dies without hearing about Jesus Christ,
it's because he did not want to know the true God.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
9. I've tried to read the Bible. I can't understand it.
The Scriptures tells us that the "natural man" cannot understand the things
of the Spirit of God. Most Americans would find it difficult to understand
the Chinese language. However, a child who is born into a Chinese family
can understand every word.
Every person is born physically alive, but spiritually dead. God is a
"Spirit" and we must have the same kind of life to perceive Him. This is
why Jesus said to a very religious man, "Unless a man is born from above,
he cannot perceive the things of God."
When even an uneducated person believes in Jesus and is born spiritually,
he can immediately begin to understand the Bible.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
10. Christians are sinners, according to their own teaching. So what is the
difference between a Christian who sins and a non-believer?
This objection misses the point. A Christian receives a new nature and the
Spirit of God comes to dwell in him it at the point of the "new spiritual
birth." He still has an old nature that wants to sin. When the Christian
fails to say no to temptation and depend upon God's Spirit, he sins.
The difference, however, is that a Christian cannot be happy anymore living
in sin. He becomes miserable and wants to return to fellowship with God. As
soon as he confesses his sin to God, he is forgiven and brought back into
fellowship. But though the Christian can get out of fellowship, he cannot
lose his relationship with God. That has been secured forever by the death
of Jesus Christ in his place. God will not disown a child that He purchased
with His own blood.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 10 reasons for not being a Christian, therefore, are really 10 reasons
why, if you haven't already, you should be on your knees ? right now ?
receive the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased by dying in your place.
You won't become perfect in this life, but you will have new desires and
power that will make you progressively better. And at the end, you will go
to be with God forever.
YOU FOOL! ROTFLMMFAO! You are funny, and not as in comical. You figure it out.
L.Roberts.
.
|
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
01 Oct 2004 11:19:24 PM |
|
|
"L.Roberts" wrote:
[SNIPALOT]
4. "The Bible was written by men."
As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter, are
you writing it, or is the pen? As I type this column, am I writing it, or
is my computer? Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is the instrument, not
the writer. The same principle applies to the writers of Scripture. They
were instruments, but God's Spirit is the author.
===>None of the writers compiled in the Bible considered
themselves a mere "instrument" of any "spirit".
You apparently also believe that "channelers" are actually
having their hands moved by some spirits or alien beings.
The Bible declares of itself
===>This is totally false, in fact a BIG LIE, used to
entice people into believing things your pick out for them
from the Bible, together with your particular sect's spin
and interpretation. The Bible declares NOTHING.
It is like a BASKET, a LIBRARY, a COLLECTION of
books written, indeed, BY MEN!
That includes the man who, under the false name of "Paul",
stated his OPINION about certain "writings" (translated as "scripture").
that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of
God." (2 Timothy 3:16)
He could not have meant the "Bible", because it had not yet
been compiled at that time!
and the proof is in the pudding. The writers of
Scripture ranged from shepherds to kings to fishermen, but the 66 books
that make up the Bible read as a single, harmonious narrative emanating
from a Single Author.
===>And THAT is an even bigger LIE!
The authors could not even agree what to call their "God",
what "God" did or did not order them to do, how seriously
those orders ("laws") must be taken, or simple details such
as where Jesus family lived before he was born, who was
the father of Joseph, how many donkeys he rode into Jerusalem,
etc., etc.
Every prophecy made in the Bible about specific events, places and times
have come true to the letter.
===>More lies.
Not a simile "prophecy" was ever fulfilled, though
some have been written after the fact, others have been
twisted and reinterpreted (e.g. Hosea 11:1-2
"When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
But the more I called Israel,
the further they went from me.
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images."
This is interpreted as a "prophecy" about Jesus having
lived in Egypt, fulfilled, according to the story in "Matthew",
which, BTW, is contradicted by "LUKE".
Some are not yet fulfilled because it is not
yet the time.
===>VERY FUNNY!
It is like a fortune teller telling you she was right,
only the predicted time has not yet come.
But the record in history is 100 percent accuracy. This is
why we have only the books in the Bible that have been authenticated by
fulfilled prophecy. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled in the birth,
life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
===>Lies, lies, more lies!
Just like the one about Egypt. -- L.
.
|
|
|
| User: "L.Roberts" |
|
| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
02 Oct 2004 12:29:56 PM |
|
|
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<415E2C4C.14FC4516@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
"L.Roberts" wrote:
[SNIPALOT]
4. "The Bible was written by men."
As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter, are
you writing it, or is the pen? As I type this column, am I writing it, or
is my computer? Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is the instrument, not
the writer. The same principle applies to the writers of Scripture. They
were instruments, but God's Spirit is the author.
===>None of the writers compiled in the Bible considered
themselves a mere "instrument" of any "spirit".
You apparently also believe that "channelers" are actually
having their hands moved by some spirits or alien beings.
The Bible declares of itself
===>This is totally false, in fact a BIG LIE, used to
entice people into believing things your pick out for them
from the Bible, together with your particular sect's spin
and interpretation. The Bible declares NOTHING.
It is like a BASKET, a LIBRARY, a COLLECTION of
books written, indeed, BY MEN!
That includes the man who, under the false name of "Paul",
stated his OPINION about certain "writings" (translated as "scripture").
that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of
God." (2 Timothy 3:16)
He could not have meant the "Bible", because it had not yet
been compiled at that time!
and the proof is in the pudding. The writers of
Scripture ranged from shepherds to kings to fishermen, but the 66 books
that make up the Bible read as a single, harmonious narrative emanating
from a Single Author.
===>And THAT is an even bigger LIE!
The authors could not even agree what to call their "God",
what "God" did or did not order them to do, how seriously
those orders ("laws") must be taken, or simple details such
as where Jesus family lived before he was born, who was
the father of Joseph, how many donkeys he rode into Jerusalem,
etc., etc.
Every prophecy made in the Bible about specific events, places and times
have come true to the letter.
===>More lies.
Not a simile "prophecy" was ever fulfilled, though
some have been written after the fact, others have been
twisted and reinterpreted (e.g. Hosea 11:1-2
"When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
But the more I called Israel,
the further they went from me.
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images."
This is interpreted as a "prophecy" about Jesus having
lived in Egypt, fulfilled, according to the story in "Matthew",
which, BTW, is contradicted by "LUKE".
Some are not yet fulfilled because it is not
yet the time.
===>VERY FUNNY!
It is like a fortune teller telling you she was right,
only the predicted time has not yet come.
But the record in history is 100 percent accuracy. This is
why we have only the books in the Bible that have been authenticated by
fulfilled prophecy. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled in the birth,
life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
===>Lies, lies, more lies!
Just like the one about Egypt. -- L.
excuse me "Libertardius the Ludicrous" but "L.Roberts." wrote no such
*****, it was your anal buddy "Gactimus the Prophylactimus", who wrote
that stupidity to which you added your stupidity, so scroff you *****
spinctercus.
.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
19 Oct 2004 01:14:59 AM |
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Gactimus wrote:
1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power. Nobody
has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody has seen a
person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and radio waves are
invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see their results.
Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if you get
right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. "I may have broken the Ten Commandments, but I do good things for
people. If God is fair, the scales will balance."
One look at "Hollywood morality" should dispel this one. They commit
adultery in their youth, and then become involved in giving to AIDS
research, etc., as they grow older. In their minds, they think that they
are balancing the scales. They have done bad, and now they are doing good.
It doesn't work that way, even before an imperfect judge in a secular
courtroom – if the judge is honest. An effort to bribe the judge with good
works is still a bribe.
If you compare yourself with other human beings, you might be better than
some, but worse than others.
But God has to judge us on the basis of His righteous character, which we
have violated. This is why He gave us the "Big Ten." They show us how good
we would have to be to earn God's acceptance by our own good deeds. This is
why God cannot judge on the "curve." God says, "Whoever keeps the whole
law, yet offends in one point is guilty of all of it." (James 2:10)
Since none of us could ever be good enough to measure up to His perfect
character, God elected to come to Earth in the person of Jesus Christ and
die in our place under His offended righteous character. In so doing, God
purchased a pardon for every person. We only have to admit we have broken
His laws, turn to God and accept His free pardon.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. "Christianity is oppressive to women."
This objection comes up in confusing the context of the Christian model for
marriage. Ephesians 5:22 says, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own
husbands, as unto the Lord." But the skeptic's objection collapses when the
passage is taken in its full context.
Ephesians 5:25 commands husbands, "Husbands, love your wives, even as
Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself for it."
It is hardly "oppression" to submit to someone who loves you with a
sacrificial love. Instead, it is a textbook definition of love – a key
ingredient to a successful marriage.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. "The Bible was written by men."
As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter, are
you writing it, or is the pen? As I type this column, am I writing it, or
is my computer? Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is the instrument, not
the writer. The same principle applies to the writers of Scripture. They
were instruments, but God's Spirit is the author.
The Bible declares of itself that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of
God." (2 Timothy 3:16) and the proof is in the pudding. The writers of
Scripture ranged from shepherds to kings to fishermen, but the 66 books
that make up the Bible read as a single, harmonious narrative emanating
from a Single Author.
God threw down the gauntlet concerning how to know whether His Word is true
or not. God said to Moses, "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know
when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' If what a prophet
proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is
a message the LORD has not spoken." (Deut. 18:21-22 NIV)
Every prophecy made in the Bible about specific events, places and times
have come true to the letter. Some are not yet fulfilled because it is not
yet the time. But the record in history is 100 percent accuracy. This is
why we have only the books in the Bible that have been authenticated by
fulfilled prophecy. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled in the birth,
life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. "Churches are full of hypocrites."
The word "hypocrite" comes from the Greek word for "actor" or "pretender."
Hypocrisy is "the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that
one does not hold."
The Body of Christ consists of true believers – "churches" are buildings
where people congregate. Sitting in a church no more makes one a Christian
than sitting in a garage makes one a car.
Jesus will sort out the true believers from the pretenders in His time. The
question is not what church you go to, but rather, whom do you trust for
your salvation? A church? Or Jesus Christ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. "Christians think they are better than non-Christians."
This is another objection borne out of ignorance of both the teaching of
Scripture and the nature of salvation. Nowhere do the Scriptures say that a
Christian is a better person than a non-Christian. A believer in Jesus is a
forgiven sinner. The unbeliever is not forgiven. But a true Christian knows
that he is forgiven by the unmerited grace of God.
Peter betrayed Jesus by denying Him three times. Judas betrayed Him only
once. But Peter is infinitely better off. Peter believed and was forgiven.
Judas did not.
Two murderers were crucified alongside Jesus. One repented and expressed
his faith by saying, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Jesus immediately replied, "Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me
in Paradise."
By way of analogy, consider two skydivers. One has a working parachute; the
other does not. That doesn't make the skydiver with a working parachute a
better skydiver. But he is certainly wiser than the other guy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. "There is too much suffering in the world for there to be a loving God."
The Bible tells us that God cursed the Earth because of Adam's
transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot
be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation.
Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new
Heaven and a new Earth "wherein dwells righteousness."
In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease or
death. If it didn't exist here, then its abolition then would be
meaningless. The sacrifice of Christ would be unnecessary.
A loving God? John 15:13 says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a
man lay down his life for his friends."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
8. "Christianity isn't fair. What about all those people who have never
heard the Gospel? Will they all go to Hell because they haven't heard about
Jesus Christ?"
No one will be lost because he hasn't heard of Jesus. God says, "The wrath
of God is being revealed from Heaven against all the godlessness and
wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what
may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities – his
eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)
He also promises, "You will seek Me and find me when you search for Me with
all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
You see, God brings everyone to "God-consciousness" through the witness of
creation. When a person anywhere, in any culture comes to God-consciousness
– and then desires to know this God, He will move Heaven and Earth to get
the true message to him. If he dies without hearing about Jesus Christ,
it's because he did not want to know the true God.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
9. I've tried to read the Bible. I can't understand it.
The Scriptures tells us that the "natural man" cannot understand the things
of the Spirit of God. Most Americans would find it difficult to understand
the Chinese language. However, a child who is born into a Chinese family
can understand every word.
Every person is born physically alive, but spiritually dead. God is a
"Spirit" and we must have the same kind of life to perceive Him. This is
why Jesus said to a very religious man, "Unless a man is born from above,
he cannot perceive the things of God."
When even an uneducated person believes in Jesus and is born spiritually,
he can immediately begin to understand the Bible.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
10. Christians are sinners, according to their own teaching. So what is the
difference between a Christian who sins and a non-believer?
This objection misses the point. A Christian receives a new nature and the
Spirit of God comes to dwell in him it at the point of the "new spiritual
birth." He still has an old nature that wants to sin. When the Christian
fails to say no to temptation and depend upon God's Spirit, he sins.
The difference, however, is that a Christian cannot be happy anymore living
in sin. He becomes miserable and wants to return to fellowship with God. As
soon as he confesses his sin to God, he is forgiven and brought back into
fellowship. But though the Christian can get out of fellowship, he cannot
lose his relationship with God. That has been secured forever by the death
of Jesus Christ in his place. God will not disown a child that He purchased
with His own blood.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 10 reasons for not being a Christian, therefore, are really 10 reasons
why, if you haven't already, you should be on your knees – right now –
receive the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased by dying in your place.
You won't become perfect in this life, but you will have new desires and
power that will make you progressively better. And at the end, you will go
to be with God forever.
I have identified 3 reasons that I am not a Christian. They are real,
as opposed to the straw dogs listed above. They are stated succinctly
below. I could provide more detail, but this much has pretty well
deterred several fanatics bent on stealing my soul.
1. Theological
Christian theology is a pagan distortion of Judaism. The notion of God
producing a child by a human is incomprehensible given God's infinite
power and ability. The concept of a trinity is equally pagan and
peculiar. The notion that God would sacrifice that putative son in
direct contradiction to orders given on Mt. Moriah and amplified in
subsequent books is suspect to say the least.
2. Ethical
Christian ethics purport to be Jewish, but they lack the moral
requirements that Judaism imposes. There is no obligation in
Christianity, for example, to rebuke a neighbors bad behavior, or not to
place a stumbling block before a blind person. Neither does there appear
to be the requirement to obtain forgiveness from an offended party. Such
moral teachings as there are are generally borrowed from the Jewish text
"Ethics of the Fathers."
3. Rotational
Christianity and Christians have not been kind to my ancestors and many
relatives whom I was never able to meet because they were unavoidably
detained by their murderers. Were I to embrace the religion of their
oppressors, their spinning in their graves, their smokestacks, and their
destroyed homes would be sufficient to upset the Earth's orbit and send
it spinning into the Sun.
.
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
01 Oct 2004 09:51:58 AM |
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In <Po47d.5448$Fw5.2790@news01.roc.ny> Gactimus wrote:
<Sigh> On behalf of the heavy-duty Witches, I'll take this one:
1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He
exists?"
Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power.
I have seen the wind. I have stood on the ridges atop the forest under
the full moon as it barrels skyward and I have seen the wind arrive like
a mighty shock wave as a billion brittle leaves flee compelled before it
and trees heave themselves cracking and straining to it's will. Ask
Florida if there's such a thing as wind.
Nobody has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody
has seen a person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and
radio waves are invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see
their results.
Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if
you get right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.
We can do much better when we get right down to it. We have heard from
the crows, the cats have spoken, we know what the toads are on about,
the Holy Goat comes to meetings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. "I may have broken the Ten Commandments, but I do good things for
people. If God is fair, the scales will balance."
One look at "Hollywood morality" should dispel this one. They commit
adultery in their youth, and then become involved in giving to AIDS
research, etc., as they grow older. In their minds, they think that
they are balancing the scales. They have done bad, and now they are
doing good.
Is God saying this or are you? Because I would think long and hard about
why an omnipotent all-seeing all-knowing divine being would need your
help to articulate a point that he himself hasn't bothered to put
forward. Perhaps you are just taking a little teensy-weensy lead off
first base here? Maybe your arrogant usurpation of the microphone held
by God will get you packed off to the Fifth Layer of Hell? Hmmm?
It doesn't work that way, even before an imperfect judge in a secular
courtroom ñ if the judge is honest.
In other words, judges you disagree with are by definition dishonest.
Convenient that.
An effort to bribe the judge with
good works is still a bribe.
What if they are good works for their own sake and no one gives a big
damn whether you or your little tin sky fairy know about them or not?
If you compare yourself with other human beings, you might be better
than some, but worse than others.
The same thing could be said about you and garden gnomes.
But God has to judge us on the basis of His righteous character, which
we have violated. This is why He gave us the "Big Ten."
You will undoubtedly burn in Hell for eternity for your flippance, Sheep
Boy.
They show us
how good we would have to be to earn God's acceptance by our own good
deeds. This is why God cannot judge on the "curve." God says,
"Whoever keeps the whole law, yet offends in one point is guilty of
all of it." (James 2:10)
Well, sounds like James and the Taliban would have gotten along just
fine together.
Since none of us could ever be good enough to measure up to His
perfect character, God elected to come to Earth in the person of
Jesus Christ and die in our place under His offended righteous
character. In so doing, God purchased a pardon for every person. We
only have to admit we have broken His laws, turn to God and accept
His free pardon.
Don't do it! It's a trick!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. "Christianity is oppressive to women."
You're just figuring that out?
This objection comes up in confusing the context of the Christian
model for marriage. Ephesians 5:22 says, "Wives, submit yourselves to
your own husbands, as unto the Lord." But the skeptic's objection
collapses when the passage is taken in its full context.
Ephesians 5:25 commands husbands, "Husbands, love your wives, even as
Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself for it."
It is hardly "oppression" to submit to someone who loves you with a
sacrificial love. Instead, it is a textbook definition of love ñ a key
ingredient to a successful marriage.
Which explains why the divorce courts are packed in Christian
neighborhoods across this country...
I love the way you decided to "explain" two rather innocuous bible
verses about women and left out all the ones about how women, shouldn't
come to church, shouldn't be touched during their periods, shouldn't
inherit property, shouldn't participate in government, etc., etc., etc.
God will have you burned in Hell for selective enforcement.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. "The Bible was written by men."
As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter,
are you writing it, or is the pen?
As an analogy, that is by far the silliest. If you are debating the
authorship of Shakespeare do you argue about the quills?
As I type this column, am I
writing it, or is my computer?
From the content I had naturally assumed this way transcribed by someone
from your original crayon drawings...
Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is
the instrument, not the writer. The same principle applies to the
writers of Scripture. They were instruments, but God's Spirit is the
author.
Well, the authors of the bible must have consumed a lot of spirits in
the process because they made an absolute hash of the historical dates,
science, biology, law, and put in so many contradicting sketchy accounts
of the main part that Christianity has spent two thousand subsequent
years fragmenting into thousands of denominations because the Christians
themselves can agree what parts mean what - but, hey, feel free to come
over and pester the witches with this nonsense any old time.
The Bible declares of itself that "all Scripture is given by
inspiration of God." (2 Timothy 3:16) and the proof is in the pudding.
The writers of Scripture ranged from shepherds to kings to fishermen,
but the 66 books that make up the Bible read as a single, harmonious
narrative emanating from a Single Author.
Except that none of the four Gospel accounts can even agree on what
happened on the days that Jesus was crucified and resurrected which just
happens to be the main point of the main character of the whole drawn
out confused book. Did the dead rise from their graves and wander
around Jerusalem like a scene from a cheap zombie movie scarring people
or didn't they - Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and John can't agree in your
"single, harmonious narrative" (which, like most Christians, I truly
doubt you've ever really bothered to read in it's entirety.)
God threw down the gauntlet concerning how to know whether His Word is
true or not. God said to Moses, "You may say to yourselves, 'How can
we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' If what a
prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come
true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken." (Deut. 18:21-22 NIV)
Every prophecy made in the Bible about specific events, places and
times have come true to the letter.
So, you believe then, that Almighty God got ***** because a bunch
of little children mocked the prophet Eziah and sent a couple of she-
bears to rip the little children limb from limb in order to teach them
some manners? Because the bible says that specifically happened so it
MUST be true. Doesn't that worry you that that's the God you are
running around trying to convince other people to sign up for?
Some are not yet fulfilled
because it is not yet the time. But the record in history is 100
percent accuracy.
Then why does it have Jesus Christ being born in a manger in Bethlehem
during the Roman Census in Judea during the reign of King Herod when we
now know for certain that Herod was dead BEFORE 4 B.C. and the Census of
Quirinius took place ten years after Herod died in 6 A.D.???? That
would have kind of made it difficult for Herod to have ordered the
Slaughter of the Innocents (which there are no contemporary historical
records of, by the way, kind of a major thing - you'd think someone
would have noticed) considering Jesus couldn't have been born when he
did it - unless you think he was AT LEAST thirty or forty years old when
he got himself crucified by Pontius Pilot who was Governor from 26 to 36
AD. SOMETHING in the biblical account has to be less than 100 percent
accurate for any of that to have happened.
This is why we have only the books in the Bible
that have been authenticated by fulfilled prophecy. More than 300
prophecies were fulfilled in the birth, life, death and resurrection
of Jesus the Messiah.
Dream on, Apologizes-for-Sheep.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. "Churches are full of hypocrites."
The word "hypocrite" comes from the Greek word for "actor" or
"pretender." Hypocrisy is "the practice of professing beliefs,
feelings, or virtues that one does not hold."
Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. Like professing to
look out for little children and then buggering the altar boys.
The Body of Christ consists of true believers ñ "churches" are
buildings where people congregate. Sitting in a church no more makes
one a Christian than sitting in a garage makes one a car.
That's a quote for H.L. Menken who couldn't stand the church. Funny you
are trying to twist it into something that supports it. Doesn't God
have his own sense of humor or does he have to borrow from his enemies
too?
Jesus will sort out the true believers from the pretenders in His time.
The question is not what church you go to, but rather, whom do you
trust for your salvation? A church? Or Jesus Christ?
But, that aside, they'd still like you to get your butt in that pew and
keep putting money in the plate because otherwise it gets hard to pay
their enormous heating bills.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. "Christians think they are better than non-Christians."
Actually I think Christians have a tremendous inferiority complex. The
Witches have a strict policy of not recruiting. We don't want anybody
who can't find their way into our circle, we isn't driven to do what we
do, who doesn't already sense the mysteries that we have unraveled, who
doesn't feel the seething power that suffuses the Universe and realize
the edges of the puzzles guard. However, every few weekends there's
some scrubbed up nitwit in a white button down shirt from the Calvary
Baptist Jehovah Splinter Denomination of Mormon Elder Ding-Dong
Independent Unified Churches of Our Lady of Perpetual Dithering bounding
down my twisted brick walk right past the oh-so-obvious spiky rod-iron
gates to stick some brochure in my door inviting me in true fellowship
to come on down to their white-washed accoustic-tiled drop-ceilinged
palace of boring architecture to listen to them rant about forgiveness
and, of course, if I choose to overlook their less-than-stellar efforts
at inviting me forth I can rest assured that the forces of Evil will
doom me for all eternity. Lemme think - sit here with my Rosenthal
china unmolested thinking my own insidious thoughts and live my own life
with my high-maintenance black cats or spend every Sunday trying not to
get rooked onto the Evangalism Committee by a bunch of suburban refugees
who spend all their time talking about how much they enjoy TCBY and
Panera Bread as they try to get closer to God - not a hard decision.
I'd rather burn in Hell any day of the week that sit in a church
basement on a metal folding chair and watch some weenie from the
seminary try and figure out how to draw meaning from Galatians without
offending the sensibilities of hypocrites who think being brusk with
parking attendants who scratch your big black SUV is a form of sin.
This is another objection borne out of ignorance of both the teaching
of Scripture and the nature of salvation. Nowhere do the Scriptures
say that a Christian is a better person than a non-Christian. A
believer in Jesus is a forgiven sinner. The unbeliever is not
forgiven. But a true Christian knows that he is forgiven by the
unmerited grace of God.
Peter betrayed Jesus by denying Him three times. Judas betrayed Him
only once. But Peter is infinitely better off. Peter believed and was
forgiven. Judas did not.
Two murderers were crucified alongside Jesus. One repented and
expressed his faith by saying, "Lord, remember me when you come into
your kingdom." Jesus immediately replied, "Truly I say to you, Today
you will be with me in Paradise."
By way of analogy, consider two skydivers. One has a working parachute;
the other does not. That doesn't make the skydiver with a working
parachute a better skydiver. But he is certainly wiser than the other
guy.
That has got to be one of the most breathtakingly stupid examples of
religious logic ever put forth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. "There is too much suffering in the world for there to be a loving
God."
The Bible tells us that God cursed the Earth because of Adam's
transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease.
Actually at my house both are weapons!
Sin and suffering
cannot be separated.
Come over some time, the cats and I will show you how much of you can be
separated quickly and cleanly.
The Scriptures inform us that we live in a
fallen creation. Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture
eagerly await a new Heaven and a new Earth "wherein dwells
righteousness."
In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease
or death. If it didn't exist here, then its abolition then would be
meaningless.
That's right up their on the stupid scale with your skydiver analogy.
The sacrifice of Christ would be unnecessary.
Something that anyone who thinks that it's kind of funny that
Christianity claims it's a "monotheistic" religion when it's really got
three spooks - the father, the son, and the Holy Ghostie - figures out
in the first ten minutes of close reading.
A loving God? John 15:13 says, "Greater love hath no man than this,
that a man lay down his life for his friends."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
8. "Christianity isn't fair. What about all those people who have
never heard the Gospel? Will they all go to Hell because they haven't
heard about Jesus Christ?"
No one will be lost because he hasn't heard of Jesus. God says, "The
wrath of God is being revealed from Heaven against all the
godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their
wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the
world God's invisible qualities ñ his eternal power and divine nature
ñ have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20) He also promises,
"You will seek Me and find me when you search for Me with all your
heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
You see, God brings everyone to "God-consciousness" through the
witness of creation. When a person anywhere, in any culture comes to
God-consciousness ñ and then desires to know this God, He will move
Heaven and Earth to get the true message to him. If he dies without
hearing about Jesus Christ, it's because he did not want to know the
true God.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
9. I've tried to read the Bible. I can't understand it.
The Scriptures tells us that the "natural man" cannot understand the
things of the Spirit of God. Most Americans would find it difficult
to understand the Chinese language. However, a child who is born into
a Chinese family can understand every word.
Every person is born physically alive, but spiritually dead. God is a
"Spirit" and we must have the same kind of life to perceive Him. This
is why Jesus said to a very religious man, "Unless a man is born from
above, he cannot perceive the things of God."
When even an uneducated person believes in Jesus and is born
spiritually, he can immediately begin to understand the Bible.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
10. Christians are sinners, according to their own teaching. So what
is the difference between a Christian who sins and a non-believer?
This objection misses the point. A Christian receives a new nature and
the Spirit of God comes to dwell in him it at the point of the "new
spiritual birth." He still has an old nature that wants to sin. When
the Christian fails to say no to temptation and depend upon God's
Spirit, he sins.
The difference, however, is that a Christian cannot be happy anymore
living in sin. He becomes miserable and wants to return to fellowship
with God. As soon as he confesses his sin to God, he is forgiven and
brought back into fellowship. But though the Christian can get out of
fellowship, he cannot lose his relationship with God. That has been
secured forever by the death of Jesus Christ in his place. God will
not disown a child that He purchased with His own blood.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 10 reasons for not being a Christian, therefore, are really 10
reasons why, if you haven't already, you should be on your knees ñ
right now ñ receive the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased by dying
in your place.
You won't become perfect in this life, but you will have new desires
and power that will make you progressively better. And at the end,
you will go to be with God forever.
.
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| User: "TV Girlie" |
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| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
19 Oct 2004 12:23:55 PM |
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<snip for space, but gotta say: LOVE your response!!>
That's a quote for H.L. Menken who couldn't stand the church. Funny you
are trying to twist it into something that supports it. Doesn't God
have his own sense of humor or does he have to borrow from his enemies
too?
To answer your question, Nevermore, of "doesn't God have his own sense
of humor...?"
I believe the answer is "look at the platypus". Remember the movie
Dogma? They stated that in the opening sequence.
It MUST be so!
:-)
[great post, Nevermore]
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
01 Oct 2004 06:35:49 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Gactimus poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
[ snip irrelevant newsgroups ]
1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power. Nobody
has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody has seen a
person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and radio waves are
invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see their results.
Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if you get
right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.
Straw man. Statement # 1 is not a rejection. Nor does the response
provide any means of knowing, though it had been requested in the
statement.
....
Since none of us could ever be good enough to measure up to His perfect
character, God elected to come to Earth in the person of Jesus Christ and
die in our place under His offended righteous character. In so doing, God
purchased a pardon for every person. We only have to admit we have broken
His laws, turn to God and accept His free pardon.
You can start by demonstrating the existence of this deity of yours.
....
4. "The Bible was written by men."
As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter, are
you writing it, or is the pen? As I type this column, am I writing it, or
is my computer? Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is the instrument, not
the writer. The same principle applies to the writers of Scripture. They
were instruments, but God's Spirit is the author.
Demonstrate the existence of this deity.
The Bible declares of itself that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of
God." (2 Timothy 3:16) ...
Biblical scripture is a fallacy.
http://tinyurl.com/4gby
....
By way of analogy, consider two skydivers. One has a working parachute; the
other does not. That doesn't make the skydiver with a working parachute a
better skydiver. But he is certainly wiser than the other guy.
Lame Analogy. You assume that both skydivers know the condition of their
parachute.
7. "There is too much suffering in the world for there to be a loving God."
The Bible tells us that God cursed the Earth because of Adam's
transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot
be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation.
Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new
Heaven and a new Earth "wherein dwells righteousness."
In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease or
death. If it didn't exist here, then its abolition then would be
meaningless. The sacrifice of Christ would be unnecessary.
The concepts of sin and salvation commit the Naturalistic Fallacy.
http://tinyurl.com/4gbs
....
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities – his
eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)
....
You see, God brings everyone to "God-consciousness" through the witness of
creation.
Naturalistic Fallacy.
....
The 10 reasons for not being a Christian, therefore, are really 10 reasons
why, if you haven't already, you should be on your knees – right now –
receive the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased by dying in your place.
Nonsense. Christianity is a demonstrable fallacy.
....
Regards,
Josef
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
-- Confucius
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian -- THE WIND GOD |
01 Oct 2004 10:55:10 PM |
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Josef Balluch wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, Gactimus poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
[ snip irrelevant newsgroups ]
1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power.
===>Long time ago "WIND" was considered to be
a "God", e.g. the Hopi Indians knew that the Wind God
YAPONCHA lived near Sunset Mountain
in a big crack of the black rock,
but most people nowadays agree that
"Wind" is a NAME for certain natural phenomena.
If one admits that "God" is just a NAME
for the natural process we also call the COSMOS,
then, of course, THAT "God" does exist.
That is the position of those who call themselves
PANTHEISTS. -- L.
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| User: "Dan Holzman" |
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| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
04 Oct 2004 12:52:47 PM |
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In article <Po47d.5448$Fw5.2790@news01.roc.ny>,
Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:
Nobody has ever seen the wind,
You've never lived in L.A.
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| User: "sane" |
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| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
04 Oct 2004 07:23:28 PM |
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(Dan Holzman) wrote in message news:<cjs2lf$eq6$1@panix1.panix.com>...
In article <Po47d.5448$Fw5.2790@news01.roc.ny>,
Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:
Nobody has ever seen the wind,
You've never lived in L.A.
When one says "I have never seen god so why should I believe in him"
we do not mean it literally. This means there is no rational reason to
believe in him. If your answer alone is faith I see no reason to
believe in blind faith. I have never seen a pink martian with purple
eyes but why should I take it on faith that it exists? I have never
seen history but I believe it happened because there is rational
reason to conclude it. You are a christian because you are scared.
When you conquer your fear you will be set free. Use reason not blind
faith (all faith not based on reason is blind).
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| User: "Ayauhteotl" |
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| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
03 Oct 2004 09:07:01 PM |
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What a sad, pathetic and small God you have...
In article <Po47d.5448$Fw5.2790@news01.roc.ny>,
Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:
!1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
!
!Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power. Nobody
!has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody has seen a
!person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and radio waves are
!invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see their results.
!
!Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if you get
!right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!2. "I may have broken the Ten Commandments, but I do good things for
!people. If God is fair, the scales will balance."
!
!One look at "Hollywood morality" should dispel this one. They commit
!adultery in their youth, and then become involved in giving to AIDS
!research, etc., as they grow older. In their minds, they think that they
!are balancing the scales. They have done bad, and now they are doing good.
!
!It doesn't work that way, even before an imperfect judge in a secular
!courtroom – if the judge is honest. An effort to bribe the judge with good
!works is still a bribe.
!
!If you compare yourself with other human beings, you might be better than
!some, but worse than others.
!
!But God has to judge us on the basis of His righteous character, which we
!have violated. This is why He gave us the "Big Ten." They show us how good
!we would have to be to earn God's acceptance by our own good deeds. This is
!why God cannot judge on the "curve." God says, "Whoever keeps the whole
!law, yet offends in one point is guilty of all of it." (James 2:10)
!
!Since none of us could ever be good enough to measure up to His perfect
!character, God elected to come to Earth in the person of Jesus Christ and
!die in our place under His offended righteous character. In so doing, God
!purchased a pardon for every person. We only have to admit we have broken
!His laws, turn to God and accept His free pardon.
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!3. "Christianity is oppressive to women."
!
!This objection comes up in confusing the context of the Christian model for
!marriage. Ephesians 5:22 says, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own
!husbands, as unto the Lord." But the skeptic's objection collapses when the
!passage is taken in its full context.
!
!Ephesians 5:25 commands husbands, "Husbands, love your wives, even as
!Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself for it."
!
!It is hardly "oppression" to submit to someone who loves you with a
!sacrificial love. Instead, it is a textbook definition of love – a key
!ingredient to a successful marriage.
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!4. "The Bible was written by men."
!
!As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter, are
!you writing it, or is the pen? As I type this column, am I writing it, or
!is my computer? Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is the instrument, not
!the writer. The same principle applies to the writers of Scripture. They
!were instruments, but God's Spirit is the author.
!
!The Bible declares of itself that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of
!God." (2 Timothy 3:16) and the proof is in the pudding. The writers of
!Scripture ranged from shepherds to kings to fishermen, but the 66 books
!that make up the Bible read as a single, harmonious narrative emanating
!from a Single Author.
!
!God threw down the gauntlet concerning how to know whether His Word is true
!or not. God said to Moses, "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know
!when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' If what a prophet
!proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is
!a message the LORD has not spoken." (Deut. 18:21-22 NIV)
!
!Every prophecy made in the Bible about specific events, places and times
!have come true to the letter. Some are not yet fulfilled because it is not
!yet the time. But the record in history is 100 percent accuracy. This is
!why we have only the books in the Bible that have been authenticated by
!fulfilled prophecy. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled in the birth,
!life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!5. "Churches are full of hypocrites."
!
!The word "hypocrite" comes from the Greek word for "actor" or "pretender."
!Hypocrisy is "the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that
!one does not hold."
!
!The Body of Christ consists of true believers – "churches" are buildings
!where people congregate. Sitting in a church no more makes one a Christian
!than sitting in a garage makes one a car.
!
!Jesus will sort out the true believers from the pretenders in His time. The
!question is not what church you go to, but rather, whom do you trust for
!your salvation? A church? Or Jesus Christ?
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!6. "Christians think they are better than non-Christians."
!
!This is another objection borne out of ignorance of both the teaching of
!Scripture and the nature of salvation. Nowhere do the Scriptures say that a
!Christian is a better person than a non-Christian. A believer in Jesus is a
!forgiven sinner. The unbeliever is not forgiven. But a true Christian knows
!that he is forgiven by the unmerited grace of God.
!
!Peter betrayed Jesus by denying Him three times. Judas betrayed Him only
!once. But Peter is infinitely better off. Peter believed and was forgiven.
!Judas did not.
!
!Two murderers were crucified alongside Jesus. One repented and expressed
!his faith by saying, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
!Jesus immediately replied, "Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me
!in Paradise."
!
!By way of analogy, consider two skydivers. One has a working parachute; the
!other does not. That doesn't make the skydiver with a working parachute a
!better skydiver. But he is certainly wiser than the other guy.
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!7. "There is too much suffering in the world for there to be a loving God."
!
!The Bible tells us that God cursed the Earth because of Adam's
!transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot
!be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation.
!Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new
!Heaven and a new Earth "wherein dwells righteousness."
!
!In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease or
!death. If it didn't exist here, then its abolition then would be
!meaningless. The sacrifice of Christ would be unnecessary.
!
!A loving God? John 15:13 says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a
!man lay down his life for his friends."
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!8. "Christianity isn't fair. What about all those people who have never
!heard the Gospel? Will they all go to Hell because they haven't heard about
!Jesus Christ?"
!
!No one will be lost because he hasn't heard of Jesus. God says, "The wrath
!of God is being revealed from Heaven against all the godlessness and
!wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what
!may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to
!them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities – his
!eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood
!from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)
!He also promises, "You will seek Me and find me when you search for Me with
!all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
!
!You see, God brings everyone to "God-consciousness" through the witness of
!creation. When a person anywhere, in any culture comes to God-consciousness
!– and then desires to know this God, He will move Heaven and Earth to get
!the true message to him. If he dies without hearing about Jesus Christ,
!it's because he did not want to know the true God.
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!9. I've tried to read the Bible. I can't understand it.
!
!The Scriptures tells us that the "natural man" cannot understand the things
!of the Spirit of God. Most Americans would find it difficult to understand
!the Chinese language. However, a child who is born into a Chinese family
!can understand every word.
!
!Every person is born physically alive, but spiritually dead. God is a
!"Spirit" and we must have the same kind of life to perceive Him. This is
!why Jesus said to a very religious man, "Unless a man is born from above,
!he cannot perceive the things of God."
!
!When even an uneducated person believes in Jesus and is born spiritually,
!he can immediately begin to understand the Bible.
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!10. Christians are sinners, according to their own teaching. So what is the
!difference between a Christian who sins and a non-believer?
!
!This objection misses the point. A Christian receives a new nature and the
!Spirit of God comes to dwell in him it at the point of the "new spiritual
!birth." He still has an old nature that wants to sin. When the Christian
!fails to say no to temptation and depend upon God's Spirit, he sins.
!
!The difference, however, is that a Christian cannot be happy anymore living
!in sin. He becomes miserable and wants to return to fellowship with God. As
!soon as he confesses his sin to God, he is forgiven and brought back into
!fellowship. But though the Christian can get out of fellowship, he cannot
!lose his relationship with God. That has been secured forever by the death
!of Jesus Christ in his place. God will not disown a child that He purchased
!with His own blood.
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!The 10 reasons for not being a Christian, therefore, are really 10 reasons
!why, if you haven't already, you should be on your knees – right now –
!receive the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased by dying in your place.
!
!You won't become perfect in this life, but you will have new desires and
!power that will make you progressively better. And at the end, you will go
!to be with God forever.
--
B"H from Liberated NYC
Evaeldeva,
Rabbi Cani Havanutherwun POEE, ELF
Chief Rabbi of the Chef Sephardee MacNCheese Cabal
"He who takes the Bible literally is a Fool."- R. S bar Yochai
"Religion is the most malevolent of all mind viruses."--Sir Arthur C.
Clarke
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| User: "agray" |
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| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
04 Oct 2004 02:59:30 PM |
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Ayauhteotl wrote:
What a sad, pathetic and small God you have...
In article <Po47d.5448$Fw5.2790@news01.roc.ny>,
Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:
!1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He
exists?" !
!Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power. Nobody
!has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody has seen a
!person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and radio waves are
!invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see their results.
!
!Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if you
get !right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.
"history" can be defined, and experienced in more or less the same way by
everyone. No one disagrees about what "history" is. They may debate what
is meant by this or that historical event -- but to debate in such a way
presumes an understanding of what history *is*.
"wind" can be defined, and experienced in more or less the same way by
everyone. No one disagrees about what "wind" is.
"god" cannot be defined in a way that means the same thing to everyone.
Even Christians do not agree on what/who/how the Christian god is, nor can
they agree on their own canons, what they mean, which ones are still "in
force" and which ones can be safely ignored. (like stoning to death people
who wear cotton and wool at the same time, etc.)
The Invisible Pink Unicorn has a more coherent and believable story than
Christianity, particularly since the IPU does not borrow its mythology from
other ancient cultures, does not move its holy days to satisfy pagans, etc.
Thus IPUism avoids the charge that it's largely just a tool of government
to keep the masses in line.
It is possible that there is a coherent story of Christianity. I've no
doubt that you will claim that yours is the one. But a horde of people no
more and no less credible than you will also claim yours is heresy and
theirs is the One True Christianity. Deal with THEM FIRST, then come to us
in unity.
Then and only then will you have a chance of competing against Islam,
Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Baha'i, Shinto, Hunduism, etc. etc. etc. for the
Big Bad One True Religion Showdown and Tractor Pull (Sunday! Sunday!
Sunday!)
Then, when all you religious yahoos get your ***** straight, can clearly and
concretely define your rules, your god and your religion in unambiguous
terms, come and see us.
Until then, you go stand in that line over ----> there, with the IPU, and
"Hugo the 400-foot-long Intelligent Purple Carrot who Lives on the Dark
Side of the Moon", Zeus, Baal, Hecate, etc.
.
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| User: "McGarrett" |
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| Title: Re: Top 10 Reasons For Not Being A Christian |
03 Oct 2004 09:05:29 PM |
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On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 22:07:01 -0400, Ayauhteotl
<asdnfrjhw@mailcity.com> wrote:
What a sad, pathetic and small God you have...
He's very comforting, Kelly. He gives peace and he made the universe.
In article <Po47d.5448$Fw5.2790@news01.roc.ny>,
Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:
!1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
!
!Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power. Nobody
!has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody has seen a
!person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and radio waves are
!invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see their results.
!
!Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if you get
!right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!2. "I may have broken the Ten Commandments, but I do good things for
!people. If God is fair, the scales will balance."
!
!One look at "Hollywood morality" should dispel this one. They commit
!adultery in their youth, and then become involved in giving to AIDS
!research, etc., as they grow older. In their minds, they think that they
!are balancing the scales. They have done bad, and now they are doing good.
!
!It doesn't work that way, even before an imperfect judge in a secular
!courtroom – if the judge is honest. An effort to bribe the judge with good
!works is still a bribe.
!
!If you compare yourself with other human beings, you might be better than
!some, but worse than others.
!
!But God has to judge us on the basis of His righteous character, which we
!have violated. This is why He gave us the "Big Ten." They show us how good
!we would have to be to earn God's acceptance by our own good deeds. This is
!why God cannot judge on the "curve." God says, "Whoever keeps the whole
!law, yet offends in one point is guilty of all of it." (James 2:10)
!
!Since none of us could ever be good enough to measure up to His perfect
!character, God elected to come to Earth in the person of Jesus Christ and
!die in our place under His offended righteous character. In so doing, God
!purchased a pardon for every person. We only have to admit we have broken
!His laws, turn to God and accept His free pardon.
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!3. "Christianity is oppressive to women."
!
!This objection comes up in confusing the context of the Christian model for
!marriage. Ephesians 5:22 says, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own
!husbands, as unto the Lord." But the skeptic's objection collapses when the
!passage is taken in its full context.
!
!Ephesians 5:25 commands husbands, "Husbands, love your wives, even as
!Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself for it."
!
!It is hardly "oppression" to submit to someone who loves you with a
!sacrificial love. Instead, it is a textbook definition of love – a key
!ingredient to a successful marriage.
!
!---------------------------------------------------------------------------
!
!4. "The Bible was written by men."
!
!As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter, are
!you writing it, or is the pen? As I type this column, am I writing it, or
!is my computer? Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is the instrument, not
!the writer. The same principle applies to the writers of Scripture. They
!were instruments, but God's Spirit is the author.
!
!The Bible declares of itself that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of
!God." (2 Timothy 3:16) and the proof is in the pudding. The writers of
!Scripture ranged f | | |