Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Elroy Willis"
Date:	14 Oct 2003 11:50:15 AM
Object:	Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering

Found this gem while googling around...
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html
1. Suffering Comes With The Freedom To Choose
2. Pain Can Warn Us Of Danger
3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts
4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity
5. Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life
6. Suffering Gives Opportunity To Trust God
7. God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering
8. God's Comfort Is Greater Than Our Suffering
9. In Times Of Crisis, We Find One Another
10. God Can Turn Suffering Around For Our Good
This is NOT satire, folks...
Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Denis Loubet"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	14 Oct 2003 03:02:35 PM

"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:dt9oov86viqrn8signuia8785tcshfr9do@4ax.com...

Found this gem while googling around...

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html

1. Suffering Comes With The Freedom To Choose
2. Pain Can Warn Us Of Danger
3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts
4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity
5. Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life
6. Suffering Gives Opportunity To Trust God
7. God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering
8. God's Comfort Is Greater Than Our Suffering
9. In Times Of Crisis, We Find One Another
10. God Can Turn Suffering Around For Our Good

This is NOT satire, folks...

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

(Sound of cat preparing to vomit)
Oh dude...my pizza-urp!
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	14 Oct 2003 03:03:42 PM

Denis Loubet <dloubet@io.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message

(Sound of cat preparing to vomit)
Oh dude...my pizza-urp!

If you look at the link name, it looks like there's a 4reason
and reason4 in there somewhere. Perhaps things were
getting tough at that point?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	14 Oct 2003 05:15:36 PM

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:02:35 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

(Sound of cat preparing to vomit)
Oh dude...my pizza-urp!

Colossians 1
Paul's Labor for the Church
24Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is
still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which
is the church.
.

User: "Denis Loubet"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	14 Oct 2003 10:24:00 PM

"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:s1toovofia7foqfk1foanc7tfqh94503gp@4ax.com...

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:02:35 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

Found this gem while googling around...

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html
1. Suffering Comes With The Freedom To Choose
2. Pain Can Warn Us Of Danger
3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts
4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity
5. Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life
6. Suffering Gives Opportunity To Trust God
7. God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering
8. God's Comfort Is Greater Than Our Suffering
9. In Times Of Crisis, We Find One Another
10. God Can Turn Suffering Around For Our Good
This is NOT satire, folks...

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

(Sound of cat preparing to vomit)
Oh dude...my pizza-urp!

Colossians 1
Paul's Labor for the Church
24Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh

what is

still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body,

which

is the church.

BAAAAAARF!
Oh, great, now Puke chimes in with a-- a--
BAAAAAAAAAAARF!
Ugh.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 11:27:57 AM

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:24:00 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

(Sound of cat preparing to vomit)
Oh dude...my pizza-urp!

Colossians 1
Paul's Labor for the Church
24Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh

what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body,
which is the church.
BAAAAAARF!
Ugh.

loubert, you just barfed into your own hat.
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	16 Oct 2003 06:38:13 PM

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:24:00 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>,
Message ID: <IJidnV2ah8zqJhGiU-KYgw@io.com> wrote in alt.atheism;

"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:s1toovofia7foqfk1foanc7tfqh94503gp@4ax.com...

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:02:35 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

Found this gem while googling around...

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

(Sound of cat preparing to vomit)
Oh dude...my pizza-urp!

Colossians 1
Paul's Labor for the Church
24Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh

what is

still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body,

which

is the church.

BAAAAAARF!

Oh, great, now Puke chimes in with a-- a--

....request for a hot lunch.
Give the sheep a spoon.
(snip)

Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.

User: "Barry OGrady"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 10:55:56 AM

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:15:36 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:02:35 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

Found this gem while googling around...

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

(Sound of cat preparing to vomit)
Oh dude...my pizza-urp!

Sick.
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 11:52:51 AM

Barry OGrady wrote in alt.atheism

duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

Denis Loubet <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

(Sound of cat preparing to vomit)
Oh dude...my pizza-urp!

Sick.

Maybe duke's like one of those guys who willingly get nailed to a
cross each easter, just to experience the supposed pain of Jesus on
the cross?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Elf M. Sternberg"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 11:50:12 AM

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> writes:

3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts
4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity

Heh. That explains the period of my life where I was heavily
into S&M. Didn't find God then, either.
Elf
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 12:21:48 PM

Elf M. Sternberg <elf@drizzle.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> writes:

3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts

Especially it you stab the heart and see all the blood gush out.

4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity

Heh. That explains the period of my life where I was heavily
into S&M. Didn't find God then, either.

Please tell me you didn't go so far as having yourself hung on
wires suspended from your nipples like I've seen before. I just don't
get that type of thing, really. I'm a "live and let live" and "to
each their own" kinda guy, but some things are beyond my
understanding I guess. I can't ever see myself desiring some
S&M stage of life, but things might change, who knows.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	14 Oct 2003 12:06:09 PM

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in alt.atheism

After reading #7, I think it's more bizzaro than #4.
"No one has suffered more than our Father in heaven. No one has paid
more dearly for the allowance of sin into the world. No one has so
continuously grieved over the pain of a race gone bad."
Wow.
It paints a picture of some god crying its eyes out because it/he/she
can't manage to accept imperfect people.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "pan"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	14 Oct 2003 04:15:54 PM

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:06:09 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net>
wrote:

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Found this gem while googling around...

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html

1. Suffering Comes With The Freedom To Choose
2. Pain Can Warn Us Of Danger
3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts
4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity
5. Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life
6. Suffering Gives Opportunity To Trust God
7. God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering
8. God's Comfort Is Greater Than Our Suffering
9. In Times Of Crisis, We Find One Another
10. God Can Turn Suffering Around For Our Good

This is NOT satire, folks...

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

After reading #7, I think it's more bizzaro than #4.

Perhaps God is a sadomasochist.
pan

"No one has suffered more than our Father in heaven. No one has paid
more dearly for the allowance of sin into the world. No one has so
continuously grieved over the pain of a race gone bad."

Wow.

It paints a picture of some god crying its eyes out because it/he/she
can't manage to accept imperfect people.

User: "Barry OGrady"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 10:55:49 AM

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:15:54 -0700, pan <pan@psnwREMOVE.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:06:09 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net>
wrote:

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Found this gem while googling around...

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html

This is NOT satire, folks...

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

After reading #7, I think it's more bizzaro than #4.

Perhaps God is a sadomasochist.

pan

God can't accept himself for making them that way.
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	16 Oct 2003 06:36:14 PM

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:06:09 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net>,
Message ID: <iqaoovc1sn3mkiiui2u8kccf9f39uh9qij@4ax.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Found this gem while googling around...

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html

This is NOT satire, folks...

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

After reading #7, I think it's more bizzaro than #4.

"No one has suffered more than our Father in heaven. No one has paid
more dearly for the allowance of sin into the world. No one has so
continuously grieved over the pain of a race gone bad."

Wow.

It paints a picture of some god crying its eyes out because it/he/she
can't manage to accept imperfect people.

Imprefection is the image of the xtian daemon. What a ***** it is. Too
bad it will never grow any backbone.

Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.

User: "LisaKay"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 04:05:36 PM

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<dt9oov86viqrn8signuia8785tcshfr9do@4ax.com>...

Found this gem while googling around...

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html

1. Suffering Comes With The Freedom To Choose
2. Pain Can Warn Us Of Danger
3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts
4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity
5. Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life
6. Suffering Gives Opportunity To Trust God
7. God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering
8. God's Comfort Is Greater Than Our Suffering
9. In Times Of Crisis, We Find One Another
10. God Can Turn Suffering Around For Our Good

This is NOT satire, folks...

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

I don't even think I get that one. Does it make any sense? Is that
why you call it a "doozy" because it makes no sense? Or am I missing
something?
-LisaKay
aa #2054
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	16 Oct 2003 05:48:56 AM

(LisaKay) wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote

I don't even think I get that one. Does it make any sense? Is that
why you call it a "doozy" because it makes no sense? Or am I missing
something?

Yeah, that's why I called it a doozy. Makes no sense at all.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "quibbler"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	14 Oct 2003 03:37:25 PM

In article <dt9oov86viqrn8signuia8785tcshfr9do@4ax.com>,
elo@airmail.net says...

Found this gem while googling around...

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html

1. Suffering Comes With The Freedom To Choose

Really? All suffering involves choice?

2. Pain Can Warn Us Of Danger

If god didn't allow suffering there would be no need for a danger
warning.

3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts

We already know what's in our hearts -- blood. Next.

4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity

Since there is no edge of eternity, nor even evidence that eternity is
a real thing I guess my formal response would be "Breaker 1-9. What
the *****, over?!"

5. Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life

So do drugs.

6. Suffering Gives Opportunity To Trust God

Unless it would be impossible to trust god without suffering then this
is hardly conclusive. Trusting god appears to be something one can do
independently of whether one suffers.

7. God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering

Only an infant would be consoled by the fact that someone else was
feeling pain too. BTW, how can a perfect being feel pain?

8. God's Comfort Is Greater Than Our Suffering

I bet. He probably has one of those memory foam beds...rich *****!

9. In Times Of Crisis, We Find One Another

But it's possible to find one another without crisis too.

10. God Can Turn Suffering Around For Our Good

An omnipotent being could do good things for us without suffering.

This is NOT satire, folks...

No, but half of them were probably extracted from bumper stickers and
country western songs.

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

I liked #3 too. I also like how they capitalized every fricken word.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.

User: "John Shepard"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 04:35:21 PM

In article <MPG.19f60c6c9b9885d398a26f@news.cis.dfn.de>,
quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:

In article <dt9oov86viqrn8signuia8785tcshfr9do@4ax.com>,
elo@airmail.net says...

Found this gem while googling around...

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html

1. Suffering Comes With The Freedom To Choose

Really? All suffering involves choice?

Remember, what Adam and Eve did or didn't do, affects us all (so they
say). Did we choose to be human? Did we choose to be fallible? Did we
choose to be born subject to rules and conditions - and punishments -
laid down for Adam and Eve? No, I don't recall any of us being given the
choice to be born at all. So whose choice are we talking about? Our
parents' choice? In which case, how is Christianity about PERSONAL
salvation (as they claim) if previous generations have any bearing in
the matter?
Free will is obviously something God doesn't like. So we're punished for
it. There's no clear reason WHY free will should cause suffering. But
the connection is made anyway. It's not any specific choice that causes
suffering, but the fact that we're allowed to choose at all - so the
line goes - that enables suffering in the universe.
Which is of course exactly as nonsensical as it sounds.

3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts

We already know what's in our hearts -- blood. Next.

Oh wait, you mean - yes - Christianity still hasn't been updated to
reflect that we found out several hundred years ago that the brain, not
the heart, is the seat of consciousness? How shocking!
Well, as we know, anytime God and reality disagree, God is right and
reality is wrong. So your brain pumps blood and your heart contains your
nervous center. Don't ask why doctors never noticed any of this before
despite apparently getting positive results operating on the wrong
organs all these years.

4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity

Since there is no edge of eternity, nor even evidence that eternity is
a real thing I guess my formal response would be "Breaker 1-9. What
the *****, over?!"

Well, in Christianspeak, "eternity" hasn't started yet, so I guess they
mean the point where it begins, which they apparently picture as an
edge. But it's still very meaningless - suffering doesn't "take" us
anywhere except deeper into painful places. The statement seems to mean,
if taken literally and with the Christian-to-English dictionary handy,
suffering kills us immediately and grants us eternal life. That's what
they usually mean by "eternity".
So it is yet another fine, polished example of Christian gobbledygook -
it is meaningless in the Queen's English, it is incorrect even by the
usual Christian definitions of the Magic Words, it has no logical sense,
in short, it's completely meaningless. Sure sounds impressive, though,
doesn't it? A nice quotable quote. And it doesn't even have to be
repeated ad nauseam to lose its meaning, since it never had one. Like a
slogan for a brand of shoes.

5. Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life

So do drugs.

And drugs loosen our grip on pain. It all links up, somehow.
Ya know, you can pray for God to take away physical pain, but even
Christians sometimes ask for morphine.

6. Suffering Gives Opportunity To Trust God

Unless it would be impossible to trust god without suffering then this
is hardly conclusive. Trusting god appears to be something one can do
independently of whether one suffers.

"Opportunity" to trust God - why would we WANT opportunity? Are we
lacking in opportunities day in and day out? Do we score points or win
Frequent Truster Miles if we trust God?
Why am I reminded of all the hours I spent playing Final Fantasy 7,
where you go into the wilderness and pick fights with strange creatures
just so you can accumulate stuff?
You can trust God while sitting at home in your easy chair, you don't
HAVE to suffer. Or do the points not count the same unless it's "combat
pay"?

7. God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering

Only an infant would be consoled by the fact that someone else was
feeling pain too. BTW, how can a perfect being feel pain?

These same Christians didn't go for Clinton's "I Feel Your Pain" line...
A perfect being feels pain perfectly, I guess. And again, it's as
nonsensical as it sounds.

10. God Can Turn Suffering Around For Our Good

An omnipotent being could do good things for us without suffering.

We usually have to turn our own suffering around. It rarely if ever
seems to turn itself around by unseen divine hands - if anything it's
usually human hands.
An omnipotent being (or one willing to be omnipotent, and not
withholding help to prove a point) wouldn't NEED to do good things for
us. It would all be good things, such that the very question would be
meaningless.
The question is not meaningless, though, there is suffering, of a sort
that is random and cruel such that it can neither be blamed on human
failings nor on God trying to make a point. Suffering is randomly
distributed between believers and nonbelievers, between those who need
'taught' a lesson and those who don't, between those who can choose
their way out and those who can't, such that it really does not look
like God is in control of who suffers.
Like either God DOESN'T control suffering (ie not omnipotent), or there
is no god.
--
John Shepard artist, web guy, weirdo

http://flyingmice.com/squid/ art gallery, message boards, etc
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	16 Oct 2003 10:01:45 PM

John Shepard <squid@flyingmice.com> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>

Free will is obviously something God doesn't like. So we're punished for
it. There's no clear reason WHY free will should cause suffering. But
the connection is made anyway. It's not any specific choice that causes
suffering, but the fact that we're allowed to choose at all - so the
line goes - that enables suffering in the universe.

The bottom line is that some people seem to believe that mankind
was created to be immortal, and something went wrong, don't you
think?
Why do people die? Why aren't they immortal? Surely a perfect
loving god would create immortal people instead of ones that end
up dying like all the other animals we see around us. So, something
must've gone wrong, hence the fictional "fall of man," and the reason
people die, because we're sinners, instead of because we're animals
in the first place, which many Christians and other religious people
don't want to admit.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Barry OGrady"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	21 Oct 2003 08:03:06 PM

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 03:01:45 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:

John Shepard <squid@flyingmice.com> wrote in alt.atheism

<snip>

The bottom line is that some people seem to believe that mankind
was created to be immortal, and something went wrong, don't you
think?

Why do people die? Why aren't they immortal? Surely a perfect
loving god would create immortal people instead of ones that end
up dying like all the other animals we see around us. So, something
must've gone wrong, hence the fictional "fall of man," and the reason
people die, because we're sinners, instead of because we're animals
in the first place, which many Christians and other religious people
don't want to admit.

Well said.

--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news

-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	22 Oct 2003 10:22:27 AM

Barry OGrady <god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:

John Shepard <squid@flyingmice.com> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>

Well said.

Even if some religious people believe man wasn't created immortal in
the first place, but can gain immortality by worshipping some god, or
by getting sprinkled with some supposed magic holy water, or by flying
a plane into a building and killing infidels, it's all a load of
superstitious crap, and people should realize that, instead of paying
tithes and homage to the promoters of such pie-in-the-sky ideas, imo.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 07:54:36 AM

quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

I liked #3 too. I also like how they capitalized every fricken word.

I wonder if the book's like that?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Ian"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	14 Oct 2003 01:03:32 PM

In article <dt9oov86viqrn8signuia8785tcshfr9do@4ax.com>,

said...

Found this gem while googling around...

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html

1. Suffering Comes With The Freedom To Choose
2. Pain Can Warn Us Of Danger
3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts
4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity
5. Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life
6. Suffering Gives Opportunity To Trust God
7. God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering
8. God's Comfort Is Greater Than Our Suffering
9. In Times Of Crisis, We Find One Another
10. God Can Turn Suffering Around For Our Good

This is NOT satire, folks...

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

*shudder*
7 & 8 are pretty whacked out too.
I think the thing that disturbs me the most about Christianity (aside
from the dogma that all nonbelievers get tortured for all of eternity)
is this sort of glorification of human suffering--stressing that
suffering is a good thing as it'll be paid off in heaven, etc. Some
Christians end up going to the extreme of WANTING to suffer, which is
bad in and of itself--but it gets even worse because it allows those
same people to turn a blind eye to--or even encourage--the suffering of
others because it will be "good for their souls, too." I think a belief
system with such a vested interest in human misery can only be called a
blight on humankind, and I really hope that particular segment of dogma
gets tossed as soon as possible.
--
To reply to me via email, drop the dash in the address.
.

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	14 Oct 2003 12:38:10 PM

In article <dt9oov86viqrn8signuia8785tcshfr9do@4ax.com>, Elroy Willis says...

Found this gem while googling around...

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html

snip

7. God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering

Sooooo, did god break his neck like my friend did when he tripped down his
basement stairs this past Saturday?
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
.

User: "Garrett"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	14 Oct 2003 09:44:58 PM

My Turn:

1. Suffering Comes With The Freedom To Choose

Right now somewhere a baby is getting raped--what just happened to her
freedom to choose?

2. Pain Can Warn Us Of Danger

So can common sense.

3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts

So does joy and love.

4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity

Does something endless have an edge? Or did you just lift this from
some Left Behind series novel?

5. Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life

Or strengthens it as we fight for dear life while suffering from
disease.

6. Suffering Gives Opportunity To Trust God

It also gives God an opportunity to show his mercy and cut as a break.

7. God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering

That's not exactly a big help while pinned under a car, is it?

8. God's Comfort Is Greater Than Our Suffering

Perhaps after we suffer and die finally.

9. In Times Of Crisis, We Find One Another

Oh yeah, that's why over 30,000 Americans take their lives each year.

10. God Can Turn Suffering Around For Our Good

So can Paxil, Prozac, Thorazine, and Lithium. If fact, I suspect
these drugs have helped more people in direct mental suffering than
God.

This is NOT satire, folks...

Then what is it? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

The doozy is that you presume to know about something clearly out of
your or my grasp.
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 07:53:20 AM

(Garrett) wrote in alt.atheism

My Turn:

4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity

Does something endless have an edge? Or did you just lift this from
some Left Behind series novel?

The godbots have some strange definition of eternity.

5. Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life

Or strengthens it as we fight for dear life while suffering from
disease.

Yeah, what about no pain, no gain?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "John Shepard"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 03:38:04 PM

In article <lmgqov0odjgbncmojprn2i60drtr9hisa3@4ax.com>,
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:

agarrettb@hotmail.com (Garrett) wrote in alt.atheism

My Turn:

4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity

Does something endless have an edge? Or did you just lift this from
some Left Behind series novel?

The godbots have some strange definition of eternity.

Finite and bounded, like their imaginations.
--
John Shepard ~ artist, web guy, weirdo ~

http://flyingmice.com/squid/ ~ art gallery, message boards, etc
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	16 Oct 2003 05:51:06 AM

John Shepard <squid@flyingmice.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:

agarrettb@hotmail.com (Garrett) wrote in alt.atheism

My Turn:

4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity

Does something endless have an edge? Or did you just lift this from
some Left Behind series novel?

The godbots have some strange definition of eternity.

Finite and bounded, like their imaginations.

I can't figure out if they think it's a place or a time or something
else.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	15 Oct 2003 04:41:41 PM

There is only one reason:
an omniscient deity has no choice but to allow things to unfold
the way he foresees them. Otherwise he would be contradicting
his own omniscience!
.

User: "Beowulf"
Title: Re: Top Ten reasons to believe in a god who allows suffering	16 Oct 2003 03:33:06 PM

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:50:15 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net>
ejaculated:

Found this gem while googling around...

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/rsn4.html

1. Suffering Comes With The Freedom To Choose
2. Pain Can Warn Us Of Danger
3. Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts
4. Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity
5. Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life
6. Suffering Gives Opportunity To Trust God
7. God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering
8. God's Comfort Is Greater Than Our Suffering
9. In Times Of Crisis, We Find One Another
10. God Can Turn Suffering Around For Our Good

This is NOT satire, folks...

Number 4 is a doozy, imo.

Suffering as a pedagogical tool is only meaningful in an imperfect
world. So, pointing it out really does nothing to get god off the
hook.
God* could have created a world populated with people who could no
more break his moral laws than they could break his physical laws. He
chose not to, knowing full well that his act of creation would lead to
things like Mt Vesuvius, Adolf Hitler's Endloesung, child-fucking
priests, and crack babies. There is no apology that gets god off the
hook short of making him a less omni-god than traditional Christians
like to portray him as. This is such an old refutation of theistic
belief in an all-powerful benevolent god that I can hardly believe it
still circulates.
*Assuming, for the sake of argument, that some god exists with the
characteristics defined by orthodox Christianity.
.

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Re: Do you *know* or do you just *believe* that there is a God?
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Do You BELIEVE Yahshua or Just Believe IN Him?
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