Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not?



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Bible John"
Date: 20 Jul 2005 06:37:49 AM
Object: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not?
Attn all Homosexuals that read this bible message;
I do not come before you to condemn you, but to show you the light so
that you may be free. I am your servant, and would appreciate a moment
of your time reading my bible message in full. I can understand that
you may be hesitant to give me the time of day after learning that I am
a follower of Christ. I know that many false Christians preach a
message of hate towards you, and I in no way condone or sanction such
actions. I can relate to your experience with those that hate you as I
am also hated and disliked by many on the boards that I preach sadly. I
tell you the truth; from this day forward you will not hear one sentence
of hate speech geared at you during the days of my ministry in Usenet
newsgroups.

Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin
or not?
Homosexuality is one of the many heated and controversial debates in our
society. The church seems to be divided on its views of homosexuality.
Many liberal denominations are very openly embracing homosexuality,
while many conservatives are not. There are of coarse different
extremes between the protestant liberal and conservative denominations
regarding Homosexuality. Some churches would ordain homosexuals into
the ministry, while on the opposite extreme there are churches that
would never allow a homosexual to enter the church.
I¹m sure you all have read stories of hate acts against homosexuals by
some so-called Christian pastors. Fred Phelps is a very well known
infamous Baptist pastor who preaches a message of hate geared at
homosexuals. He¹s no doubt the biggest anti-homosexual advocate in the
world.
Pastor Fred Phelps
http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/phelpsbio.html
Its tragic that Fred does not know the gospel according to Jesus,
because if he did he would have read the verse that says to love your
neighbor as yourself (Matt. 22:39 And the second is like it: Love your
neighbor as yourself.¹).
Many follow Fred¹s damming ways, and sadly many will join him in hell.
But my prayer is that Fred and his followers repent of their wickedness.
Because of Fred¹s example and poor representation of Christians I can
understand why many homosexuals are hostile towards us, and I really do
not blame them.
Like Fred Phelps I am also a conservative Baptist and staunch Calvinist.
I may not be 5 point, but I see homosexuality from the same lens as
Pastor Fred, but the difference between us is our approach to the issue.
Pastor Fred may read this bible message, and I want him to know that I
do not hate him, I only love him, but hate his hypocrisy and
misrepresentation of Christ, which I only will say after using the bible
as my authority. Those that misrepresent Christ in such a way are surely
the church of Satan, and will go into hell before the Mormons, JW¹s,
Oneness Pentecostals, Word of Faith heretics, and other such cults
sadly. But Lord willing hopefully many will repent and turn towards the
light.
Lets look at what the bible teaches on homosexuality
From the Old Testament
Lev. 18:22 ¶ "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
detestable.
Lev. 20:13 ¶ "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both
of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their
blood will be on their own heads.
So you see in the OT homosexuality was clearly a very serious sin that
had very serious and yet swift consequences. Back in these day¹s sin
like this was dealt with very quick and swift. One way that people
would be put to death was by stoning. No quick and easy death like what
may be experienced by those who are put to death in our society.
Some will read this and ask me why homosexuality is so severe, and why
is it more so of a sin than the many other sins listed in Moses law?
This is a fair question which I will answer by first stating that
homosexuality is a "transcendent" sin, and seems to be such a sin before
and after Moses law. We all know the story of Lot, and how the angels
had to blind the homosexuals who attempted to have sex with them. In
Sodom there were many homosexuals, so many that God had to destroy the
city. Homosexuality was serious before Moses law.
Second do know that homosexuality is mentioned many times in the NT
which would be after Moses law while many of the Moral and Civil laws in
Moses law are not. For example the many kosher laws were abolished by
Christ, as well as the 7th day Sabbath. The new Sabbath was changed
from Saturday to Sunday, in celebration of Jesus¹s resurrection from the
dead.
NIV
1Cor. 6:9 ¶ Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom
of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters
nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
1Cor. 6:10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor
swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cor. 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you
were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
and by the Spirit of our God.
KJV
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified,
but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of
our God.
Some KJV only advocates will respond and insist that the word
"homosexual" is never mentioned in the bible, and yes this is true, but
only from their point of view. The Greek word used for homosexuals is
"aresenokoites" which is properly translated into homosexuals. The KJV
gets it wrong in the passage above, while the NKJV corrects its mistake
below.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of
God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor
covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the
kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, but
you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord
Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NIV
1Tim. 1:9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for
lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and
irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
1Tim. 1:10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and
perjurers ‹ and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
For some reason the NIV does not use the word "homosexual" in the above
verses. However the NASB does use the "homosexual" word in place of the
NIV¹s "perverts." This word is not a common word in the NIV
translation, as its used only once.
Rom. 1:26 ¶ Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even
their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
Rom. 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with
women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed
indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty
for their perversion.
The above scriptures seem to very clearly indicate 3 things.
a) Homosexuality is a sin that will be punished very severely
b) Practicing Homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of heaven
c) There was a time when God got so fed up with the sin of sinners, so
he just allowed the homosexuals and others to continue to live in their
sin, and without any of his providence
Knowing the above to be true, and if you are a conservative evangelical
believing in the "verbal plenary view of interpretation" you will see 2
Tim 3:16 as literal, and will interpret the above verses pertaining to
homosexuality to indicate that this is indeed a very serious sin. But
then how to approach homosexuals is another manor. We cant be like Fred
Phelps, but we can be like Jesus who comes to set the captives free.
Homosexuals are people too and needed to be treated as such. Fred
Phelps¹s divisive unbiblical attitude has led many homosexuals to
believe that all Christians are as hateful towards homosexuals as he is,
which is very far from the truth. Many Christians do not preach a
message of hate towards homosexuals.
I remember once working with a homosexual at a computer sales/support
job I had for summer 2002. Anthony had really experienced nothing but
hatred from so many Christians and Catholics, that he was very skeptical
of me after he learned that I was a saved and sanctified follower of
Jesus. When the due time came for me to leave this job and return back
to school, Anthony told me that I was unlike any Christian he had ever
met. I was not bent on attacking and condemning him, but was very
interested in loving him in the same way that Jesus loves the world.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the
world, but to save the world through him.
So I believe that the only way to approach homosexuals is to love them
as I did with Anthony in 2002. Jesus loved me in such a way (only far
more powerful) and we need to love others likewise.
God bless!
John Wolf
BA Church Education Ministries, Simpson University 2005
AS Business Computer technology specialist, Canada College 2000
--
CERM- Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
2Tim. 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in
season and out of season; correct, rebuke
and encourage ‹ with great patience and careful instruction.
AIM: Crucifyself03
--
CERM- Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
2Tim. 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in
season and out of season; correct, rebuke
and encourage ‹ with great patience and careful instruction.
AIM: Crucifyself03
.

User: "Pastor Steve Winter"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 21 Jul 2005 08:31:17 AM
Bible John <john.doggett@x-files.gov> spake thusly and wrote:

Attn all Homosexuals that read this bible message;

I do not come before you to condemn you, but to show you the light so
that you may be free. I am your servant, and would appreciate a moment
of your time reading my bible message in full.

But, technically God holds deceiving scum like John Wolf much
lower than He does the unrepentant Sodomite.
While Sodomy is a sinful abomination to God, He never commands
the Church to curse the Sodomite, but rather to preach to the
Sodomite as to any other sinner that they would come to
repentance.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but
now commandeth all men every where to repent:
When it comes to deceiving scum like John Wolf, though, the Bible
commands the real Christian to curse him because he teaches a
false doctrine.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any
other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,
let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man
preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let
him be accursed.
That is also the only commandment that the Bible repeats in the
very next verse.
So it really is true, scum like John Wolf are much lower in the
eyes of God than the Sodomite.
Of course many of Wolf's brethern are returning to their Sodomite
roots, see: http://www.prerapture.org/Sewers.html
I hope this helps....
Pastor Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
.

User: "• Ninure Saunders"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 20 Jul 2005 08:19:52 AM
HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH
The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "whosoever" All
of God's promises are intended for every human being This includes gay men
and lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and
persecuted people who are homosexual! We are all created with powerful
needs for personal relationships. Our quality of life depends upon the
love we share with others whether family or friends, partners or peers.
Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are
denied access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find
ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator.
This important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of
our human relationships.
Not a Sin, Not a Sickness
For many centuries, the Christian Church's attitude toward human sexuality
was very negative: sex was for procreation, not for pleasure; women and
slaves were considered property to be owned by males; and many expressions
of heterosexuality, like homosexuality, were considered sinful. Such
tradition often continues to influence churches today. Many teach that
women should be subordinate to men, continue to permit forms of
discrimination against peoples of color, and condemn homosexuals. They say
that all homosexual acts are sinful, often referring to their
interpretation of scripture. Other churches today are influenced by a
century of psychoanalytic thought promoted through a powerful minority in
the field of medicine. They see homosexuality as some kind of sickness
Although this view has now been soundly discredited by the medical
profession, some churches and clergy continue to be influenced by the
idea. They say that homosexuals are "imperfect" and in need of "healing."
The good news is that, since 1968, when Metropolitan Community Church was
founded, the emergence of a strong lesbian and gay community, and the
conclusions of new scientific studies on homosexuality have forced the
Christian Church to reexamine these issues. A growing number of biblical
and theological scholars now recognize that Scripture does not condemn
loving, responsible homosexual relationships. Therefore, gay men and
lesbians should he accepted just as they are in Christian churches, and
homosexual relationships should be celebrated and affirmed!
About the Bible
The Bible is a collection of writings which span more than a thousand
years recounting the history of God's relationship with the Hebrew and
Christian people. It was written in several languages, embraces many
literary forms, and reflects cultures very different from our own. These
are important considerations for properly understanding the Bible in its
context. There are vast differences in doctrines between various Christian
denominations, all of which use the same bible. Such differences have led
some Christians to claim that other Christians are not really Christians
at all! Biblical interpretation and theology differ from church to church.
Biblical interpretation and theology also change from time to time.
approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching
held that there was a true-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were
thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient
and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such
an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over
slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian
denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery
today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible did!
New Information Refutes Old ideas
What influences lead us to new ways of understanding Scripture! New
scientific information, serial changes, and personal experience are
perhaps the greatest forcesfor change in the way we interpret the Bible
and develop our beliefs. Scientific awareness of homosexual orientation
did not exist until the nineteenth century. Most Christian churches,
including Metropolitan Community Church, believe the Bible was inspired by
God and provides a key source of authority for the Christian faith.
Therefore, what the Bible teaches on any subject, including sexuality is
of great significance The problem, however, is that sometimes the Bible
says very little about some subjects; and popular attitudes about those
matters are determined much more by other sources, which are then read
into the biblical statements. This has been particularly true of
homosexuality. But fortunately, recent scholarship refutes many previous
assumptions and conclusions.
GENESIS 19:1-25
W hat was the sin of Sodom? Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that
God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of
"homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom
with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance.
Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to
Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home.
Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's
house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them." The
Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yanha, usually means "have thorough
knowledge of." It could also express intent to examine the visitors'
credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If
the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear
case of attempted gang rape.
Horrified at this gross violation of ancient hospitality rules, Lot
attempts to protect the visitors by offering his two daughters to the
angry crowd, a morally outrageous act by today's standards. The people of
Sodom refuse, so the angels render them blind. Lot and his family are then
rescued by the angels as the cities are destroyed.
Several observations are important. First, the judgment on these cities
for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual
incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on
Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the
population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters
suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if
the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits
incest with his daughters! Most importantly, why do all the other passages
of Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of
homosexuality?
What was the Sin of Sodom?
Ezekiel 16:48-50 states it clearly: people of Sodom, like many people
today, had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs
of the poor, and they worshipped idols. The sins of injustice and idolatry
plague every generation. We stand under the same judgment if we create
false gods or treat others with injustice.
LEVITICUS 18:22 & 20:13
C hristians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in
Leviticus. But some ignore its defini- tions of their own "uncleanness"
while quoting Leviticus to condemn "homosexuals." Such abuse of Scripture
distorts the Old Testament meaning and denies a New Testament message.
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an
abomination." These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus,
a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully
appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew
people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God, was to
avoid the practices of other peoples and gods. Hebrew religion,
characterized by the revelation of one God, stood in continuous tension
with the religion of the surrounding Canaanites who worshipped the
multiple gods of fertility cults. Canaanite idol worship, which featured
female and male cult prostitution as noted in Deuteronomy 23:17,
repeatedly compromised Israel's loyalty to God. The Hebrew word for a male
cult prostitute, qadesh, is mistranslated "sodomite" in some versions of
the Bible.
What is an "Abomination"? An abomination is that which God found
detestable because it was unclean, disloyal, or unjust. Several Hebrew
words were so translated, and the one found in Leviticus, toevah, is
usually associated with idolatry, as in Ezekiel, where it occurs numerous
times. Given the strong association of toevah with idolatry and the
Canaanite religious practice of cult prostitution, the use of toevah
regarding male same-sex acts in Leviticus calls into question any
conclusion that such condemnation also applies to loving, responsible
homosexual relationships. Rituals and rules found in the Old Testament
were given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and
culture of Israel. But, as stated in Galatians 3:22-25, Christians are no
longer bound by these Jewish laws. By faith we live in Jesus Christ, not
in Leviticus. To be sure, ethical concerns apply to all cultures and
peoples in every age. Such concerns were ultimately reflected by Jesus
Christ, who said nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal about love,
justice, mercy and faith.
ROMANS 1:24-27
Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on
same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the
subject. The most negative statement by Paul regarding same-sex acts
occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the
need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual
behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous
Gentiles. Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain
homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? Romans was written to Jewish
and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the
infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman
emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church
regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15
and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned
male same-sex acts in the context of idolatry.
What is "Natural"?
Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles
exchanged that which was "natural" for them -physin, in the Greek text-
for something "unnatural," para physin. In Romans 11:24, God acts in an
"unnatural" way, para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these
passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but
rather implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we
should observe that it is "unnatural," para physin, for a person today
with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual
lifestyle.
Romans 1.26 is the only statement in the Bible with a possible reference
to lesbian behavior, although the specific intent of this verse is
unclear. Some authors have seen in this passage a reference to women
adopting a dominant role in heterosexual relationships. Given the
repressive cultural expectations placed on women in Paul's time, such a
meaning may be possible.
The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result
from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted
in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such
acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay
relationships seen today.
I CORINTHIANS 6:9 & I TIMOTHY 1:10
Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must
carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul
ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men
with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts.
In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and
"abusers of themselves with man- kind," as translated in the King James
version. Unfortunately, some newer translations are worse, rendering these
words "homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such
mistranslations. The first word - malakos, in the Greek text-which has
been translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who
lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New
Testament but never with reference to sexuality. The second word,
arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy, but nowhere
else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek
words, one meaning "males" and the other "beds," a euphemism for sexual
intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual
behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6
shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible
he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to
translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise
meaning is uncertain.
No Law Against Love
The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the
ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to
conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality,
especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any
arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to
great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.
Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not
judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love ...
against such there is no law.
One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "the
whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as
yourself."'
----------------------------------------------
OTHER INSIGHTS
"The homosexuality the New Testament opposes is the pederasty of the
Greco-Roman culture; the attitudes toward pederasty and, in part, the
language used to oppose it are informed by the Jewish background."
Robin Scroggs Professor of Biblical Theology
Union Theological Seminary, New York City
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"One cannot be absolutely certain that the two key words in I Corinthians
6:9 are meant as references to male homosexual behavior."
Victor Paul Furnish, Professor of New Testament
Perkins School of Theology, Dallas
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The strongest New Testament argument against homosexual activity as
intrinsically immoral has been derived traditionally from Romans 1:26,
where this activity is indicated as para physin. The normal English
translation for this has been 'against nature.' Two interpretations can be
justified concerning what Paul meant by the phrase. It could refer to the
individual pagan, who goes beyond his own sexual appetites in order to
indulge in new sexual pleasures. The second possibility is that physis
refers to the 'nature' of the chosen people who were forbidden by
Levitical law to have homosexual relations."
John J. McNeill, Adjunct Professor of Psychology
Union Theological Seminary, New York City
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A close reading of Paul's discussion of homosexual acts in Romans 1 does
not support the common modern interpretation of the passage. Paul did not
deny the existence of a distinction between clean and unclean and even
assumed that Jewish Christians would continue to observe the purity code.
He refrained, however, from identifying physical impurity with sin or
demanding that Gentiles adhere to that code."
L. William Countryman, Professor of New Testament
Church Divinity School of the Pacific, Berkeley
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Hebrew word 'toevah,' here translated 'abomination,' does not usually
signify something intrinsically evil, like rape or theft (discussed
elsewhere in Leviticus), but something which is ritually unclean for Jews,
like eating pork or engaging in intercourse during menstruation, both of
which are prohibited in these same chapters."
John Boswell, Professor of History
Yale University, New Haven
----------------------------------------------
Pax Christi,
• Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
Jesus is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
The Bible Site - help provide free scripture
http://www.thebiblesite.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.
User: "VO"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 21 Jul 2005 12:34:04 PM
". Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk> wrote in
message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-2007050837010001@h-68-164-225-97.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...

HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH

The ONLY people it should concern is those who are homosexual.
Otherwise it is a totally moot question.
Only the simple and totally uneducated or biased or self righteous can
define what a homosexual is.
.
User: "Donna"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 21 Jul 2005 01:04:10 PM
"VO" <here@overthere.net> wrote in message
news:42dfdbe5$0$25809$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...


". Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk> wrote in
message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-2007050837010001@h-68-164-225-97.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...

HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH



The ONLY people it should concern is those who are homosexual.
Otherwise it is a totally moot question.

Only the simple and totally uneducated or biased or self righteous can
define what a homosexual is.

I'm sorry but I cannot let this pass. God is not simple, uneducated, biased
or self righteous and He did define what a homosexual is. He did so in both
the Old and New Testaments of the Bible as others on here have quoted.
While I can agree that we are not to treat them hatefully and unlovingly we
are to be concerned that they are committing a sin against God. We surely
should not force them to do as we would wish, but we can pray for them and
try to show them that in following that way of life they are walking away
from God.
If we saw a person who was walking close to the edge of a steep cliff and
they were not aware of it, would we not try to warn them so as to save their
life? How much more important is it then to try and save the life and soul
of those who are living in sin.
I understand that there are those who know what God says about this and they
choose to do it anyway. But there are those who are unaware. I don't know
about you but I would not want to face them in the end, when they are lost,
and here them say, "Why didn't you tell me?" More, I wouldn't want to face
God and here Him say to me, "Where are those I gave unto you?"
Donna
.
User: "VO"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 21 Jul 2005 02:17:03 PM
"Donna" <Donna@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:usRDe.1658$lX2.1489@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...


"VO" <here@overthere.net> wrote in message
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". Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk> wrote
in message
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HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH



The ONLY people it should concern is those who are homosexual.
Otherwise it is a totally moot question.

Only the simple and totally uneducated or biased or self righteous can
define what a homosexual is.


I'm sorry but I cannot let this pass. God is not simple, uneducated,
biased or self righteous and He did define what a homosexual is. He did so
in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible as others on here have
quoted.

NO, your interpretation in your bigotted mind says homosexual.


While I can agree that we are not to treat them hatefully and unlovingly
we are to be concerned that they are committing a sin against God. We
surely should not force them to do as we would wish, but we can pray for
them and try to show them that in following that way of life they are
walking away from God.

If we saw a person who was walking close to the edge of a steep cliff and
they were not aware of it, would we not try to warn them so as to save
their life? How much more important is it then to try and save the life
and soul of those who are living in sin.

Since you are CONSTANTLY IN SIN, look at yourself.
YOU don't SAVE anyone, God does.
NONE are righteous, no not one.


I understand that there are those who know what God says about this and
they choose to do it anyway.

You don't know what God says because there is no such thing as a homosexual
ONLY self righteous bigots who want to point fingers.

But there are those who are unaware. I don't know about you but I would not
want to face them in the end, when they are lost, and here them say, "Why
didn't you tell me?" More, I wouldn't want to face God and here Him say to
me, "Where are those I gave unto you?"

Donna

"Where are those I gave unto you?"
Who do you think you are, Jesus?
Gave unto you?
.
User: "Donna"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 21 Jul 2005 02:52:26 PM
"VO" <here@overthere.net> wrote in message
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". Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk> wrote
in message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-2007050837010001@h-68-164-225-97.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...

HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH



The ONLY people it should concern is those who are homosexual.
Otherwise it is a totally moot question.

Only the simple and totally uneducated or biased or self righteous can
define what a homosexual is.


I'm sorry but I cannot let this pass. God is not simple, uneducated,
biased or self righteous and He did define what a homosexual is. He did
so in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible as others on here have
quoted.


NO, your interpretation in your bigotted mind says homosexual.

VO, God defined it and told us it is sin. Man came along later and gave that
sin a name, homosexuality. It is not bigotry to recognize it is sin.



While I can agree that we are not to treat them hatefully and unlovingly
we are to be concerned that they are committing a sin against God. We
surely should not force them to do as we would wish, but we can pray for
them and try to show them that in following that way of life they are
walking away from God.

If we saw a person who was walking close to the edge of a steep cliff and
they were not aware of it, would we not try to warn them so as to save
their life? How much more important is it then to try and save the life
and soul of those who are living in sin.


Since you are CONSTANTLY IN SIN, look at yourself.

YOU don't SAVE anyone, God does.
NONE are righteous, no not one.

You are right, none are righteous, we all sin and we should be looking to
ourselves but at the same time we are not excused from warning our
fellowman.




I understand that there are those who know what God says about this and
they choose to do it anyway.


You don't know what God says because there is no such thing as a
homosexual ONLY self righteous bigots who want to point fingers.

I am sure you would like to believe that, but I am just as sure that there
are those who love others enough to do something............and it does not
include pointing fingers.

But there are those who are unaware. I don't know about you but I would
not want to face them in the end, when they are lost, and here them say,
"Why didn't you tell me?" More, I wouldn't want to face God and here Him
say to me, "Where are those I gave unto you?"

Donna


"Where are those I gave unto you?"
Who do you think you are, Jesus?

Gave unto you?

It can be said that whoever is brought into our area of influence is given
unto us. We learn about that in the story of the good Samaritan.
Donna
.
User: "VO"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 21 Jul 2005 03:30:06 PM
"Donna" <Donna@nospam.com> wrote in message
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". Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk> wrote
in message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-2007050837010001@h-68-164-225-97.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...

HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH



The ONLY people it should concern is those who are homosexual.
Otherwise it is a totally moot question.

Only the simple and totally uneducated or biased or self righteous can
define what a homosexual is.


I'm sorry but I cannot let this pass. God is not simple, uneducated,
biased or self righteous and He did define what a homosexual is. He did
so in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible as others on here
have quoted.


NO, your interpretation in your bigotted mind says homosexual.


VO, God defined it and told us it is sin.
Man came along later and gave that sin a name, homosexuality. It is not
bigotry to recognize it is sin.

Oh, really. According to whom?




While I can agree that we are not to treat them hatefully and unlovingly
we are to be concerned that they are committing a sin against God. We
surely should not force them to do as we would wish, but we can pray for
them and try to show them that in following that way of life they are
walking away from God.

If we saw a person who was walking close to the edge of a steep cliff
and they were not aware of it, would we not try to warn them so as to
save their life? How much more important is it then to try and save the
life and soul of those who are living in sin.


Since you are CONSTANTLY IN SIN, look at yourself.

YOU don't SAVE anyone, God does.
NONE are righteous, no not one.


You are right, none are righteous, we all sin and we should be looking to
ourselves but at the same time we are not excused from warning our
fellowman.

Warning? you sure are "self" righteous.
Warning?




I understand that there are those who know what God says about this and
they choose to do it anyway.


You don't know what God says because there is no such thing as a
homosexual ONLY self righteous bigots who want to point fingers.


I am sure you would like to believe that, but I am just as sure that there
are those who love others enough to do something............and it does
not include pointing fingers.

Do what?
You are capable of reading and they are not?



But there are those who are unaware. I don't know about you but I would
not want to face them in the end, when they are lost, and here them say,
"Why didn't you tell me?" More, I wouldn't want to face God and here Him
say to me, "Where are those I gave unto you?"

Donna


"Where are those I gave unto you?"
Who do you think you are, Jesus?

Gave unto you?


It can be said that whoever is brought into our area of influence is given
unto us. We learn about that in the story of the good Samaritan.

Oh, that's mighty magnanimous of you.
THE GOSPEL IS NOT ABOUT RULES AND DEFINITIONS.


Donna

.
User: "Donna"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 21 Jul 2005 04:06:31 PM
"VO" <here@overthere.net> wrote in message
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". Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk>
wrote in message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-2007050837010001@h-68-164-225-97.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...

HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH



The ONLY people it should concern is those who are homosexual.
Otherwise it is a totally moot question.

Only the simple and totally uneducated or biased or self righteous can
define what a homosexual is.


I'm sorry but I cannot let this pass. God is not simple, uneducated,
biased or self righteous and He did define what a homosexual is. He did
so in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible as others on here
have quoted.


NO, your interpretation in your bigotted mind says homosexual.


VO, God defined it and told us it is sin.


Man came along later and gave that sin a name, homosexuality. It is not
bigotry to recognize it is sin.


Oh, really. According to whom?




While I can agree that we are not to treat them hatefully and
unlovingly we are to be concerned that they are committing a sin
against God. We surely should not force them to do as we would wish,
but we can pray for them and try to show them that in following that
way of life they are walking away from God.

If we saw a person who was walking close to the edge of a steep cliff
and they were not aware of it, would we not try to warn them so as to
save their life? How much more important is it then to try and save the
life and soul of those who are living in sin.


Since you are CONSTANTLY IN SIN, look at yourself.

YOU don't SAVE anyone, God does.
NONE are righteous, no not one.


You are right, none are righteous, we all sin and we should be looking to
ourselves but at the same time we are not excused from warning our
fellowman.


Warning? you sure are "self" righteous.
Warning?




I understand that there are those who know what God says about this and
they choose to do it anyway.


You don't know what God says because there is no such thing as a
homosexual ONLY self righteous bigots who want to point fingers.


I am sure you would like to believe that, but I am just as sure that
there are those who love others enough to do something............and it
does not include pointing fingers.


Do what?
You are capable of reading and they are not?



But there are those who are unaware. I don't know about you but I would
not want to face them in the end, when they are lost, and here them say,
"Why didn't you tell me?" More, I wouldn't want to face God and here
Him say to me, "Where are those I gave unto you?"

Donna


"Where are those I gave unto you?"
Who do you think you are, Jesus?

Gave unto you?


It can be said that whoever is brought into our area of influence is
given unto us. We learn about that in the story of the good Samaritan.


Oh, that's mighty magnanimous of you.

THE GOSPEL IS NOT ABOUT RULES AND DEFINITIONS.

I think you know of what I am speaking on every point but do not want to
hear..............so bye bye now.
Donna
.
User: "VO"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 21 Jul 2005 04:31:42 PM
"Donna" <Donna@nospam.com> wrote in message
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". Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk>
wrote in message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-2007050837010001@h-68-164-225-97.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...

HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH



The ONLY people it should concern is those who are homosexual.
Otherwise it is a totally moot question.

Only the simple and totally uneducated or biased or self righteous
can define what a homosexual is.


I'm sorry but I cannot let this pass. God is not simple, uneducated,
biased or self righteous and He did define what a homosexual is. He
did so in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible as others on
here have quoted.


NO, your interpretation in your bigotted mind says homosexual.


VO, God defined it and told us it is sin.


Man came along later and gave that sin a name, homosexuality. It is not
bigotry to recognize it is sin.


Oh, really. According to whom?




While I can agree that we are not to treat them hatefully and
unlovingly we are to be concerned that they are committing a sin
against God. We surely should not force them to do as we would wish,
but we can pray for them and try to show them that in following that
way of life they are walking away from God.

If we saw a person who was walking close to the edge of a steep cliff
and they were not aware of it, would we not try to warn them so as to
save their life? How much more important is it then to try and save
the life and soul of those who are living in sin.


Since you are CONSTANTLY IN SIN, look at yourself.

YOU don't SAVE anyone, God does.
NONE are righteous, no not one.


You are right, none are righteous, we all sin and we should be looking
to ourselves but at the same time we are not excused from warning our
fellowman.


Warning? you sure are "self" righteous.
Warning?




I understand that there are those who know what God says about this
and they choose to do it anyway.


You don't know what God says because there is no such thing as a
homosexual ONLY self righteous bigots who want to point fingers.


I am sure you would like to believe that, but I am just as sure that
there are those who love others enough to do something............and it
does not include pointing fingers.


Do what?
You are capable of reading and they are not?



But there are those who are unaware. I don't know about you but I would
not want to face them in the end, when they are lost, and here them
say, "Why didn't you tell me?" More, I wouldn't want to face God and
here Him say to me, "Where are those I gave unto you?"

Donna


"Where are those I gave unto you?"
Who do you think you are, Jesus?

Gave unto you?


It can be said that whoever is brought into our area of influence is
given unto us. We learn about that in the story of the good Samaritan.


Oh, that's mighty magnanimous of you.

THE GOSPEL IS NOT ABOUT RULES AND DEFINITIONS.



I think you know of what I am speaking on every point but do not want to
hear..............so bye bye now.

Donna

There is no such thing as a homosexual.
.




User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 21 Jul 2005 02:58:53 PM
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:17:03 -0700, "VO"
<here@overthere.net> spake thusly:

Only the simple and totally uneducated or biased or self righteous can
define what a homosexual is.


I'm sorry but I cannot let this pass. God is not simple, uneducated,
biased or self righteous and He did define what a homosexual is. He did so
in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible as others on here have
quoted.


NO, your interpretation in your bigotted mind says homosexual.

Prove it.

While I can agree that we are not to treat them hatefully and unlovingly
we are to be concerned that they are committing a sin against God. We
surely should not force them to do as we would wish, but we can pray for
them and try to show them that in following that way of life they are
walking away from God.

If we saw a person who was walking close to the edge of a steep cliff and
they were not aware of it, would we not try to warn them so as to save
their life? How much more important is it then to try and save the life
and soul of those who are living in sin.


Since you are CONSTANTLY IN SIN, look at yourself.

YOU don't SAVE anyone, God does.
NONE are righteous, no not one.

Is it your understanding that the proper thing to do,
is to point your finger at other people, when faced
with a point that you cannot refute? Your logic
states that since everyone has sinned, that means
this sin is okay.
The question isn't, "Does everyone sin?". The question
is, "Are homosexual acts sin?". The Bible says they
are, so that's the end of that discussion.

I understand that there are those who know what God says about this and
they choose to do it anyway.


You don't know what God says because there is no such thing as a homosexual
ONLY self righteous bigots who want to point fingers.

So all those people having gay sex are heterosexuals?
Denying the existence of homosexuals will not make
the problem go away and taking the stance that you
do, only shows your utter desperation.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.



User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 21 Jul 2005 02:54:36 PM
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:34:04 -0700, "VO"
<here@overthere.net> spake thusly:


". Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk> wrote in
message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-2007050837010001@h-68-164-225-97.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...

HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH



The ONLY people it should concern is those who are homosexual.
Otherwise it is a totally moot question.

Only the simple and totally uneducated or biased or self righteous can
define what a homosexual is.

Anyone who claims this, has no logic.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.


User: "Pastor Steve Winter"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 21 Jul 2005 08:33:38 AM
(• Ninure Saunders)
spake thusly and wrote:


W hat was the sin of Sodom? Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that
God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of
"homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom
with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance.

Devilish, accursed little scum, you are the liar here. You have
a right to be a Sodomite if you wish, and you have the right to
be a Christian if you wish, but you are guilty of false
advertising to claim to be both at the same time.
It is notable how many of trinity cults are making headlines for
their sub-canine morals embracing the "G"ot "A"ids "Y"et crowd.
See http://www.prerapture.org/Sewers.html
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with
womankind: it [is] abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with
a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall
surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:
for even their women did change the natural use into that which
is against nature:
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of
the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men
working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that
recompence of their error which was meet.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in
[their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do
those things which are not convenient;
I Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not
inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators,
nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor EFFEMINATE, nor abusers of
themselves with mankind,
I wonder if I've been "exhaustive" enough here with this brief
Bible study. It does seem from these verses that God does have
feelings concerning certain matters....
I hope this helps...
Pastor sTeve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
.

User: "Bible Bob"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 20 Jul 2005 05:49:04 PM
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:19:52 GMT,
RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk (• Ninure Saunders) wrote:

HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH

The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "whosoever" All
of God's promises are intended for every human being This includes gay men
and lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and
persecuted people who are homosexual! We are all created with powerful
needs for personal relationships. Our quality of life depends upon the
love we share with others whether family or friends, partners or peers.
Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are
denied access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find
ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator.
This important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of
our human relationships.

Not a Sin, Not a Sickness

For many centuries, the Christian Church's attitude toward human sexuality
was very negative: sex was for procreation, not for pleasure; women and
slaves were considered property to be owned by males; and many expressions
of heterosexuality, like homosexuality, were considered sinful. Such
tradition often continues to influence churches today. Many teach that
women should be subordinate to men, continue to permit forms of
discrimination against peoples of color, and condemn homosexuals. They say
that all homosexual acts are sinful, often referring to their
interpretation of scripture. Other churches today are influenced by a
century of psychoanalytic thought promoted through a powerful minority in
the field of medicine. They see homosexuality as some kind of sickness
Although this view has now been soundly discredited by the medical
profession, some churches and clergy continue to be influenced by the
idea. They say that homosexuals are "imperfect" and in need of "healing."

The good news is that, since 1968, when Metropolitan Community Church was
founded, the emergence of a strong lesbian and gay community, and the
conclusions of new scientific studies on homosexuality have forced the
Christian Church to reexamine these issues. A growing number of biblical
and theological scholars now recognize that Scripture does not condemn
loving, responsible homosexual relationships. Therefore, gay men and
lesbians should he accepted just as they are in Christian churches, and
homosexual relationships should be celebrated and affirmed!

About the Bible

The Bible is a collection of writings which span more than a thousand
years recounting the history of God's relationship with the Hebrew and
Christian people. It was written in several languages, embraces many
literary forms, and reflects cultures very different from our own. These
are important considerations for properly understanding the Bible in its
context. There are vast differences in doctrines between various Christian
denominations, all of which use the same bible. Such differences have led
some Christians to claim that other Christians are not really Christians
at all! Biblical interpretation and theology differ from church to church.

Biblical interpretation and theology also change from time to time.
approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching
held that there was a true-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were
thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient
and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such
an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over
slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian
denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery
today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible did!

New Information Refutes Old ideas

What influences lead us to new ways of understanding Scripture! New
scientific information, serial changes, and personal experience are
perhaps the greatest forcesfor change in the way we interpret the Bible
and develop our beliefs. Scientific awareness of homosexual orientation
did not exist until the nineteenth century. Most Christian churches,
including Metropolitan Community Church, believe the Bible was inspired by
God and provides a key source of authority for the Christian faith.
Therefore, what the Bible teaches on any subject, including sexuality is
of great significance The problem, however, is that sometimes the Bible
says very little about some subjects; and popular attitudes about those
matters are determined much more by other sources, which are then read
into the biblical statements. This has been particularly true of
homosexuality. But fortunately, recent scholarship refutes many previous
assumptions and conclusions.

GENESIS 19:1-25

W hat was the sin of Sodom? Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that
God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of
"homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom
with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance.

Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to
Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home.
Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's
house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them." The
Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yanha, usually means "have thorough
knowledge of." It could also express intent to examine the visitors'
credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If
the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear
case of attempted gang rape.

Horrified at this gross violation of ancient hospitality rules, Lot
attempts to protect the visitors by offering his two daughters to the
angry crowd, a morally outrageous act by today's standards. The people of
Sodom refuse, so the angels render them blind. Lot and his family are then
rescued by the angels as the cities are destroyed.

Several observations are important. First, the judgment on these cities
for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual
incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on
Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the
population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters
suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if
the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits
incest with his daughters! Most importantly, why do all the other passages
of Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of
homosexuality?

What was the Sin of Sodom?

Ezekiel 16:48-50 states it clearly: people of Sodom, like many people
today, had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs
of the poor, and they worshipped idols. The sins of injustice and idolatry
plague every generation. We stand under the same judgment if we create
false gods or treat others with injustice.

LEVITICUS 18:22 & 20:13

C hristians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in
Leviticus. But some ignore its defini- tions of their own "uncleanness"
while quoting Leviticus to condemn "homosexuals." Such abuse of Scripture
distorts the Old Testament meaning and denies a New Testament message.
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an
abomination." These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus,
a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully
appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew
people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God, was to
avoid the practices of other peoples and gods. Hebrew religion,
characterized by the revelation of one God, stood in continuous tension
with the religion of the surrounding Canaanites who worshipped the
multiple gods of fertility cults. Canaanite idol worship, which featured
female and male cult prostitution as noted in Deuteronomy 23:17,
repeatedly compromised Israel's loyalty to God. The Hebrew word for a male
cult prostitute, qadesh, is mistranslated "sodomite" in some versions of
the Bible.

What is an "Abomination"? An abomination is that which God found
detestable because it was unclean, disloyal, or unjust. Several Hebrew
words were so translated, and the one found in Leviticus, toevah, is
usually associated with idolatry, as in Ezekiel, where it occurs numerous
times. Given the strong association of toevah with idolatry and the
Canaanite religious practice of cult prostitution, the use of toevah
regarding male same-sex acts in Leviticus calls into question any
conclusion that such condemnation also applies to loving, responsible
homosexual relationships. Rituals and rules found in the Old Testament
were given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and
culture of Israel. But, as stated in Galatians 3:22-25, Christians are no
longer bound by these Jewish laws. By faith we live in Jesus Christ, not
in Leviticus. To be sure, ethical concerns apply to all cultures and
peoples in every age. Such concerns were ultimately reflected by Jesus
Christ, who said nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal about love,
justice, mercy and faith.

ROMANS 1:24-27

Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on
same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the
subject. The most negative statement by Paul regarding same-sex acts
occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the
need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual
behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous
Gentiles. Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain
homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? Romans was written to Jewish
and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the
infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman
emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church
regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15
and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned
male same-sex acts in the context of idolatry.

What is "Natural"?

Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles
exchanged that which was "natural" for them -physin, in the Greek text-
for something "unnatural," para physin. In Romans 11:24, God acts in an
"unnatural" way, para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these
passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but
rather implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we
should observe that it is "unnatural," para physin, for a person today
with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual
lifestyle.

Romans 1.26 is the only statement in the Bible with a possible reference
to lesbian behavior, although the specific intent of this verse is
unclear. Some authors have seen in this passage a reference to women
adopting a dominant role in heterosexual relationships. Given the
repressive cultural expectations placed on women in Paul's time, such a
meaning may be possible.

The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result
from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted
in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such
acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay
relationships seen today.

I CORINTHIANS 6:9 & I TIMOTHY 1:10

Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must
carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul
ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men
with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts.

In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and
"abusers of themselves with man- kind," as translated in the King James
version. Unfortunately, some newer translations are worse, rendering these
words "homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such
mistranslations. The first word - malakos, in the Greek text-which has
been translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who
lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New
Testament but never with reference to sexuality. The second word,
arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy, but nowhere
else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek
words, one meaning "males" and the other "beds," a euphemism for sexual
intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual
behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6
shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible
he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to
translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise
meaning is uncertain.

No Law Against Love

The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the
ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to
conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality,
especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any
arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to
great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.
Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not
judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love ...
against such there is no law.

One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "the
whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as
yourself."'

----------------------------------------------

OTHER INSIGHTS

"The homosexuality the New Testament opposes is the pederasty of the
Greco-Roman culture; the attitudes toward pederasty and, in part, the
language used to oppose it are informed by the Jewish background."

Robin Scroggs Professor of Biblical Theology
Union Theological Seminary, New York City

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


"One cannot be absolutely certain that the two key words in I Corinthians
6:9 are meant as references to male homosexual behavior."

Victor Paul Furnish, Professor of New Testament
Perkins School of Theology, Dallas

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The strongest New Testament argument against homosexual activity as
intrinsically immoral has been derived traditionally from Romans 1:26,
where this activity is indicated as para physin. The normal English
translation for this has been 'against nature.' Two interpretations can be
justified concerning what Paul meant by the phrase. It could refer to the
individual pagan, who goes beyond his own sexual appetites in order to
indulge in new sexual pleasures. The second possibility is that physis
refers to the 'nature' of the chosen people who were forbidden by
Levitical law to have homosexual relations."

John J. McNeill, Adjunct Professor of Psychology
Union Theological Seminary, New York City

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"A close reading of Paul's discussion of homosexual acts in Romans 1 does
not support the common modern interpretation of the passage. Paul did not
deny the existence of a distinction between clean and unclean and even
assumed that Jewish Christians would continue to observe the purity code.
He refrained, however, from identifying physical impurity with sin or
demanding that Gentiles adhere to that code."

L. William Countryman, Professor of New Testament
Church Divinity School of the Pacific, Berkeley

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Hebrew word 'toevah,' here translated 'abomination,' does not usually
signify something intrinsically evil, like rape or theft (discussed
elsewhere in Leviticus), but something which is ritually unclean for Jews,
like eating pork or engaging in intercourse during menstruation, both of
which are prohibited in these same chapters."

John Boswell, Professor of History
Yale University, New Haven

----------------------------------------------

Pax Christi,
• Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian

Jesus is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk

My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk

Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org

The Bible Site - help provide free scripture
http://www.thebiblesite.org

To send e-mail, remove nohate from address

Ninure,
I think you are doing a disservice to yourself and to others when you
use rationalization and deception to convince people to think the way
you want to think.
There is no use playing silly little games with you as you are mature
enough to handle the facts.
The truth is that God created man and woman and told them to be
fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. Rather than being fruitful
and multiplying Adam and Eve did their own thing and were snagged by
the serpent; then they began having children - after they got busted
for immorality.
No, they did not engage in homosexuality. Their sin was disobedience
and the motivation for the act of disobedience was self gratification.
Homosexuality is about self gratification. Yes, I know that two women
or two men can "phileo" love each other just as a man and a wife can
"phileo" love each other; but that form of love is tdhe lower form of
love when compared to "agape" which is true love - the love of God.
Phileo love has at its root self gratification. Daddy makes mommy
happy so mommy makes daddy happy. Bruce makes Steve happy so Steve
makes Bruce happy - and yes there is more to it than that because
there are emotions and motivators involved.
God's commandment is to love one another using "agapao;" not phileo.
Phileo like homosexuality misses the mark. Phileo is not sin for
natural man because that is the best he can do. But phileo is missing
the mark for the CHristian who is commanded to "agapao".
Youcan rationalize all you want and say that the meaning of the Bible
has changed,etc, etc. But God has not chnaged and God's will has not
changed. Anyone can become saved -whosoever means whosoever.
Salvation is not the real issue. Salvation is the issue because
Christians and homosexuals made it an issue to steer each other away
from the central truth and that is homosexuality is wrong and
counterproductive to the will of God. It doesn't warrant death
becuase we live in the dispensation of grace; but it does prevent
people from earning rewards.
What you should be teaching people with your ministry is that
homosexuality is wrong and that it will prevent the doer from earning
all the rewards that God would have him to have. Then that person
exercising his free will can make a decision with all the facts at
hand.
What you are doing is misleading people and justifying your own
behavior.
Non-commercial website where everything is free.
http://www.biblebob.net
BB
.

User: "jw"

Title: Re: Topical Bible Message- HOMOSEXUALITY- Is it right or wrong? Is it a sin or not? 20 Jul 2005 02:52:04 PM
x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:19:52 GMT,
RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk (• Ninure Saunders) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved. NO portion of this
article can be reproduced in any form anywhere else without express
written consent of the author

HOMOSEXUALITY & THE CHURCH

The most beautiful word in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is "whosoever" All
of God's promises are intended for every human being This includes gay men
and lesbians.

True.
However, ALL MUST REPENT.
That means, Charlie Manson has as much access to salvation as John
Calvin, but both must repent of their SINS.
One excellent example of repentance is Ted Bundy, the mass
rapist/murderer who came to Christ after he was caught and imprisoned,
convicted and sentenced to life behind bars.
He was not in a state that had a death penalty, and he knew that he
had a problem. He told Dr Jim Dobson that he knew he was smart enough
to eventually find a way to escape from prison, and that he would, and
that he would continue to rape and murder.
And Ted Bundy said that the ONLY way to make the world safe from him
was to execute him.
He therefore ASKED to be executed, and the court granted that wish,
and he was put to death.
That is TRUE repentance, and TRUE faith in Christ.
And, Ninure, you know NOTHING of that TRUE REPENTANCE. You want to be
accepted in your sin state, and that's not how it works.
You remind me of the girl
who sued the Boy Scouts of America
to open its membership to girls.
That's not how it works.
IF you want to be a Christian, you have to obey the rules. One of
those rules is to not commit sexual immorality.
One of the rules regarding sex is that you only are allowed to have
sex with the OPPOSITE sex.
How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and

persecuted people who are homosexual!

No CHRISTIAN church has excluded homosexuals as a group. What the TRUE
Christian church HAS done is to require you to leave your sin behind
if you want to become a member of their church.
Just as you are not permitted to be a girl and join the Boy Scouts.
Just as you are not permitted-- as a woman-- to join the Masons.
Just as if you are man, you can't belong to the "Daughters of the
American Revolution."
We are all created with powerful

needs for personal relationships.

Yes we are, and God has given us those urges. He has also given us
RULES.
1. no rape
2. no sexual assaults
3. no incest
4. no sex with the underage
5. no homosex.
Obey, or seek to join a different club.
Our quality of life depends upon the

love we share with others whether family or friends, partners or peers.
Yet, lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are
denied access to healthy relationships.

And there certainly is evidence that -- no matter where the homosexual
urge comes from, it is treatable. Only your PRIDE prevents you from
seeking to be a heterosexual.
jw
Jesus Christ calls us to find

ultimate meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator.
This important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of
our human relationships.

Not a Sin, Not a Sickness

For many centuries, the Christian Church's attitude toward human sexuality
was very negative: sex was for procreation, not for pleasure; women and
slaves were considered property to be owned by males; and many expressions
of heterosexuality, like homosexuality, were considered sinful. Such
tradition often continues to influence churches today. Many teach that
women should be subordinate to men, continue to permit forms of
discrimination against peoples of color, and condemn homosexuals. They say
that all homosexual acts are sinful, often referring to their
interpretation of scripture. Other churches today are influenced by a
century of psychoanalytic thought promoted through a powerful minority in
the field of medicine. They see homosexuality as some kind of sickness
Although this view has now been soundly discredited by the medical
profession, some churches and clergy continue to be influenced by the
idea. They say that homosexuals are "imperfect" and in need of "healing."

The good news is that, since 1968, when Metropolitan Community Church was
founded, the emergence of a strong lesbian and gay community, and the
conclusions of new scientific studies on homosexuality have forced the
Christian Church to reexamine these issues. A growing number of biblical
and theological scholars now recognize that Scripture does not condemn
loving, responsible homosexual relationships. Therefore, gay men and
lesbians should he accepted just as they are in Christian churches, and
homosexual relationships should be celebrated and affirmed!

About the Bible

The Bible is a collection of writings which span more than a thousand
years recounting the history of God's relationship with the Hebrew and
Christian people. It was written in several languages, embraces many
literary forms, and reflects cultures very different from our own. These
are important considerations for properly understanding the Bible in its
context. There are vast differences in doctrines between various Christian
denominations, all of which use the same bible. Such differences have led
some Christians to claim that other Christians are not really Christians
at all! Biblical interpretation and theology differ from church to church.

Biblical interpretation and theology also change from time to time.
approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching
held that there was a true-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were
thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient
and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such
an abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over
slavery led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian
denominations. These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery
today. Did the Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible did!

New Information Refutes Old ideas

What influences lead us to new ways of understanding Scripture! New
scientific information, serial changes, and personal experience are
perhaps the greatest forcesfor change in the way we interpret the Bible
and develop our beliefs. Scientific awareness of homosexual orientation
did not exist until the nineteenth century. Most Christian churches,
including Metropolitan Community Church, believe the Bible was inspired by
God and provides a key source of authority for the Christian faith.
Therefore, what the Bible teaches on any subject, including sexuality is
of great significance The problem, however, is that sometimes the Bible
says very little about some subjects; and popular attitudes about those
matters are determined much more by other sources, which are then read
into the biblical statements. This has been particularly true of
homosexuality. But fortunately, recent scholarship refutes many previous
assumptions and conclusions.

GENESIS 19:1-25

W hat was the sin of Sodom? Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that
God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of
"homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom
with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance.

Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to
Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home.
Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's
house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them." The
Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yanha, usually means "have thorough
knowledge of." It could also express intent to examine the visitors'
credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If
the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear
case of attempted gang rape.

Horrified at this gross violation of ancient hospitality rules, Lot
attempts to protect the visitors by offering his two daughters to the
angry crowd, a morally outrageous act by today's standards. The people of
Sodom refuse, so the angels render them blind. Lot and his family are then
rescued by the angels as the cities are destroyed.

Several observations are important. First, the judgment on these cities
for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual
incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on
Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the
population been homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters
suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if
the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits
incest with his daughters! Most importantly, why do all the other passages
of Scripture referring to this account fail to raise the issue of
homosexuality?

What was the Sin of Sodom?

Ezekiel 16:48-50 states it clearly: people of Sodom, like many people
today, had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs
of the poor, and they worshipped idols. The sins of injustice and idolatry
plague every generation. We stand under the same judgment if we create
false gods or treat others with injustice.

LEVITICUS 18:22 & 20:13

C hristians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in
Leviticus. But some ignore its defini- tions of their own "uncleanness"
while quoting Leviticus to condemn "homosexuals." Such abuse of Scripture
distorts the Old Testament meaning and denies a New Testament message.
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an
abomination." These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus,
a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully
appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew
people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God, was to
avoid the practices of other peoples and gods. Hebrew religion,
characterized by the revelation of one God, stood in continuous tension
with the religion of the surrounding Canaanites who worshipped the
multiple gods of fertility cults. Canaanite idol worship, which featured
female and male cult prostitution as noted in Deuteronomy 23:17,
repeatedly compromised Israel's loyalty to God. The Hebrew word for a male
cult prostitute, qadesh, is mistranslated "sodomite" in some versions of
the Bible.

What is an "Abomination"? An abomination is that which God found
detestable because it was unclean, disloyal, or unjust. Several Hebrew
words were so translated, and the one found in Leviticus, toevah, is
usually associated with idolatry, as in Ezekiel, where it occurs numerous
times. Given the strong association of toevah with idolatry and the
Canaanite religious practice of cult prostitution, the use of toevah
regarding male same-sex acts in Leviticus calls into question any
conclusion that such condemnation also applies to loving, responsible
homosexual relationships. Rituals and rules found in the Old Testament
were given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and
culture of Israel. But, as stated in Galatians 3:22-25, Christians are no
longer bound by these Jewish laws. By faith we live in Jesus Christ, not
in Leviticus. To be sure, ethical concerns apply to all cultures and
peoples in every age. Such concerns were ultimately reflected by Jesus
Christ, who said nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal about love,
justice, mercy and faith.

ROMANS 1:24-27

Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on
same-sex acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the
subject. The most negative statement by Paul regarding same-sex acts
occurs in Romans 1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the
need of all people for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual
behavior is given as an example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous
Gentiles. Does this passage refer to all homosexual acts, or to certain
homosexual behavior known to Paul's readers? Romans was written to Jewish
and Gentile Christians in Rome, who would have been familiar with the
infamous sexual excesses of their contemporaries, especially Roman
emperors. They would also have been aware of tensions in the early Church
regarding Gentiles and observance of the Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15
and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish laws in Leviticus mentioned
male same-sex acts in the context of idolatry.

What is "Natural"?

Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles
exchanged that which was "natural" for them -physin, in the Greek text-
for something "unnatural," para physin. In Romans 11:24, God acts in an
"unnatural" way, para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these
passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but
rather implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we
should observe that it is "unnatural," para physin, for a person today
with a lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual
lifestyle.

Romans 1.26 is the only statement in the Bible with a possible reference
to lesbian behavior, although the specific intent of this verse is
unclear. Some authors have seen in this passage a reference to women
adopting a dominant role in heterosexual relationships. Given the
repressive cultural expectations placed on women in Paul's time, such a
meaning may be possible.

The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result
from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted
in Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such
acts are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay
relationships seen today.

I CORINTHIANS 6:9 & I TIMOTHY 1:10

Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must
carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul
ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men
with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts.

In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and
"abusers of themselves with man- kind," as translated in the King James
version. Unfortunately, some newer translations are worse, rendering these
words "homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such
mistranslations. The first word - malakos, in the Greek text-which has
been translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who
lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New
Testament but never with reference to sexuality. The second word,
arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy, but nowhere
else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek
words, one meaning "males" and the other "beds," a euphemism for sexual
intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual
behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6
shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible
he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to
translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise
meaning is uncertain.

No Law Against Love

The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the
ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to
conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality,
especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any
arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to
great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.
Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not
judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love ...
against such there is no law.

One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "the
whole Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as
yourself."'

----------------------------------------------

OTHER INSIGHTS

"The homosexuality the New Testament opposes is the pederasty of the
Greco-Roman culture; the attitudes toward pederasty and, in part, the
language used to oppose it are informed by the Jewish background."

Robin Scroggs Professor of Biblical Theology
Union Theological Seminary, New York City

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


"One cannot be absolutely certain that the two key words in I Corinthians
6:9 are meant as references to male homosexual behavior."

Victor Paul Furnish, Professor of New Testament
Perkins School of Theology, Dallas

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The strongest New Testament argument against homosexual activity as
intrinsically immoral has been derived traditionally from Romans 1:26,
where this activity is indicated as para physin. The normal English
translation for this has been 'against nature.' Two interpretations can be
justified