Tough Questions for Futurists

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Pastor Dave"
Date:	30 Mar 2005 03:56:16 PM
Object:	Tough Questions for Futurists

All questions from...
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/difficult.html
....except #2, which I asked.
QUESTION #1
Assuming the earth will be destroyed with fire, and all
the nations of the earth will be destroyed along with
it, why, when the "New Earth" or "New Jerusalem" comes,
will the nations need healing? (Revelation 22:2)? How
can you heal something that is already dead and burned?
If the New Jerusalem is the saved of all ages, when all
things have ended and we have embarked into eternity;
when sin, death, Hades and Satan have all been cast
into the lake of fire; all evil has been disposed of,
sin has been finally purged; there is no more sickness,
no more hunger or thirst; the former things shall not
be remembered or even come to mind; why would they need
healing if they are now in eternal bliss?
QUESTION #2
If the judgment has taken place and all of the wicked
have been destroyed and there is a new heaven and earth
and only the faithful are there, living forever
(Revelation 20:12 - 21:4), then who are the people
outside of the gates of New Jerusalem (Rev 22:14-15)?
QUESTION #3
If, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no
more death, why does the Bible say there WILL still be
physical death in the New Heaven and New Earth (see
Isaiah 65:17-20, 66:24)?
QUESTION #4
If, after the New Heaven and New Earth come, there will
be no more sin, why does Isaiah say there WILL still be
sin (Isaiah 65:20)? Even Jesus Christ said there would
still be sin in the next age (see Matthew 12:32,
Revelation 22:15). And Revelation says that, after the
New Jerusalem comes, there will still be sinners
(Revelation 21:27).
QUESTION #5
If the New Jerusalem is a physical place, and it will
physically come down to earth, why did Jesus say it
would not come with observation, and that people would
not say "look here or look there" (Luke 17:20-21)? Why
not say "look" if it will come with observation? Can
it possibly be because it will be a spiritual kingdom
and not a physical one?
Return of Christ
This next question is concerning the question the
disciples asked in Matthew 24:3: "And what will be the
sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Here
are a few facts first.
Jesus talked to his disciples about his death but the
apostles did not understand it at all (Matthew
16:21-22, Mark 8:31-32; 9:31-32, Luke 9:44-45;
18:31-34, John 13:33-14:6; 16:16-18). This last account
in the Gospel of John takes place after Jesus had given
them the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24) and they still
did not understand that Jesus was going to leave them
and die. After all, he was God...how can God die? They
had no idea of Jesus leaving, then coming again (John
12:34).
The disciples expected Jesus to be their physical King
and set up a worldly Kingdom at his First Coming
(John 6:15, Luke 24:21), not at his Second Coming.
So did others (Luke 17:20-21; 19:11). Even after the
crucifixion, they still had no concept about his Second
Coming, because they still thought he was going to give
them a physical Kingdom at that time (Acts 1:6).
QUESTION #6
If the apostles had no idea that Jesus was going to
leave them, why would they ask Him about His return
(Matthew 24:3)? How could the disciples have asked a
question about something they knew nothing about?
QUESTION #7
If Jesus is going to come down physically on the Mount
of Olives, why did Christ warn "Then if any man shall
say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it
not" (Matthew 24:23)? Why can't we believe someone who
would say, "Lo there is Christ descending on the Mount
of Olives!"? Can it possibly be because it will be a
spiritual coming and not a physical one?
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.

User: "u2 Fan"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	31 Mar 2005 04:24:07 AM

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com...

2 Peter 3v7 not only the earth but heavens too

it, why, when the "New Earth" or "New Jerusalem" comes,
will the nations need healing? (Revelation 22:2)? How
can you heal something that is already dead and burned?

2 Peter 3v7 it's the ungodly who are destroyed, the rest are raptured 1
Thess 4v17
Healing is a recovery from discouragement of having gone the tribulation

If the New Jerusalem is the saved of all ages, when all
things have ended and we have embarked into eternity;
when sin, death, Hades and Satan have all been cast
into the lake of fire; all evil has been disposed of,
sin has been finally purged; there is no more sickness,
no more hunger or thirst; the former things shall not
be remembered or even come to mind; why would they need
healing if they are now in eternal bliss?

To overcome discouragement and dispression.

QUESTION #2
If the judgment has taken place and all of the wicked
have been destroyed and there is a new heaven and earth
and only the faithful are there, living forever
(Revelation 20:12 - 21:4), then who are the people
outside of the gates of New Jerusalem (Rev 22:14-15)?

In hell much like with the parable of the rich man and lazarus

QUESTION #3
If, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no
more death, why does the Bible say there WILL still be
physical death in the New Heaven and New Earth (see
Isaiah 65:17-20, 66:24)?

It's a blend of Rev 20 millenium mortality and the 8th eternal day

QUESTION #4
If, after the New Heaven and New Earth come, there will
be no more sin, why does Isaiah say there WILL still be
sin (Isaiah 65:20)? Even Jesus Christ said there would
still be sin in the next age (see Matthew 12:32,
Revelation 22:15). And Revelation says that, after the
New Jerusalem comes, there will still be sinners
(Revelation 21:27).

No mention of sin in Is65v20,

QUESTION #5
If the New Jerusalem is a physical place, and it will
physically come down to earth, why did Jesus say it
would not come with observation, and that people would
not say "look here or look there" (Luke 17:20-21)? Why
not say "look" if it will come with observation? Can
it possibly be because it will be a spiritual kingdom
and not a physical one?

Yes, but also no-one knows the day of the Lord

Return of Christ

This next question is concerning the question the
disciples asked in Matthew 24:3: "And what will be the
sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Here
are a few facts first.

Jesus talked to his disciples about his death but the
apostles did not understand it at all (Matthew
16:21-22, Mark 8:31-32; 9:31-32, Luke 9:44-45;
18:31-34, John 13:33-14:6; 16:16-18). This last account
in the Gospel of John takes place after Jesus had given
them the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24) and they still
did not understand that Jesus was going to leave them
and die. After all, he was God...how can God die? They
had no idea of Jesus leaving, then coming again (John
12:34).

The disciples expected Jesus to be their physical King
and set up a worldly Kingdom at his First Coming
(John 6:15, Luke 24:21), not at his Second Coming.
So did others (Luke 17:20-21; 19:11). Even after the
crucifixion, they still had no concept about his Second
Coming, because they still thought he was going to give
them a physical Kingdom at that time (Acts 1:6).

QUESTION #6
If the apostles had no idea that Jesus was going to
leave them, why would they ask Him about His return
(Matthew 24:3)? How could the disciples have asked a
question about something they knew nothing about?

QUESTION #7
If Jesus is going to come down physically on the Mount
of Olives, why did Christ warn "Then if any man shall
say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it
not" (Matthew 24:23)? Why can't we believe someone who
would say, "Lo there is Christ descending on the Mount
of Olives!"? Can it possibly be because it will be a
spiritual coming and not a physical one?

The Lord will come physically and every eye shall see him ...

--

Pastor Dave Raymond

Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide

"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99

/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\

"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	31 Mar 2005 10:04:01 AM

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:24:07 +0100, while wishing I
would go away, "u2 Fan" <t@t.org> said:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com...

2 Peter 3v7 not only the earth but heavens too

it, why, when the "New Earth" or "New Jerusalem" comes,
will the nations need healing? (Revelation 22:2)? How
can you heal something that is already dead and burned?

2 Peter 3v7 it's the ungodly who are destroyed, the rest are raptured 1
Thess 4v17
Healing is a recovery from discouragement of having gone the tribulation

Copout. This is discussing the time AFTER the new
heaven and earth, when only the faithful are there, in
their new, resurrected bodies. There would be no need
for healing.

To overcome discouragement and dispression.

According to the end timers' doctrine, there is no more
discouragement. You contradict yourself. You claim
that this new heaven and earth is paradise and that God
Himself will be living here on Earth and all the wicked
are gone, yet there is depression and discouragement?

In hell much like with the parable of the rich man and lazarus

How can it be Hell? It is a new earth. The city comes
down onto the new earth, AFTER the wicked are destroyed
and death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire and
burned up. Now you're saying that on the new Earth,
outside the city is Hell. Yet, the Bible says that
even the faithful can walk in and out of the city. So
now you have the faithful walking in and out of Hell.

QUESTION #3
If, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no
more death, why does the Bible say there WILL still be
physical death in the New Heaven and New Earth (see
Isaiah 65:17-20, 66:24)?

It's a blend of Rev 20 millenium mortality and the 8th eternal day

You're pulling your answers out of thin air. Nowhere
does the Bible say that. This is after all has been
done.

No mention of sin in Is65v20,

And yet, there is in Revelation 21. You are avoiding
the issue.

Yes, but also no-one knows the day of the Lord

Another avoidance maneuver. You are not even dealing
with the questions asked. You are trying to avoid
them.

The Lord will come physically and every eye shall see him ...

So you think that repeating your belief somehow equates
to an intelligent answer to these questions?
As was said folks, these are tough questions for the
end timers.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.

User: "u2 Fan"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	31 Mar 2005 11:43:16 AM

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:kg7o41pkthc57ho17sbe2idb5fqdp31d2e@4ax.com...

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:24:07 +0100, while wishing I
would go away, "u2 Fan" <t@t.org> said:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com...

2 Peter 3v7 not only the earth but heavens too

it, why, when the "New Earth" or "New Jerusalem" comes,
will the nations need healing? (Revelation 22:2)? How
can you heal something that is already dead and burned?

2 Peter 3v7 it's the ungodly who are destroyed, the rest are raptured 1
Thess 4v17
Healing is a recovery from discouragement of having gone the tribulation

Copout. This is discussing the time AFTER the new
heaven and earth, when only the faithful are there, in
their new, resurrected bodies. There would be no need
for healing.

To overcome discouragement and dispression.

In hell much like with the parable of the rich man and lazarus

QUESTION #3
If, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no
more death, why does the Bible say there WILL still be
physical death in the New Heaven and New Earth (see
Isaiah 65:17-20, 66:24)?

It's a blend of Rev 20 millenium mortality and the 8th eternal day

You're pulling your answers out of thin air. Nowhere
does the Bible say that. This is after all has been
done.

No mention of sin in Is65v20,

And yet, there is in Revelation 21. You are avoiding
the issue.

Yes, but also no-one knows the day of the Lord

Another avoidance maneuver. You are not even dealing
with the questions asked. You are trying to avoid
them.

The Lord will come physically and every eye shall see him ...

So you think that repeating your belief somehow equates
to an intelligent answer to these questions?

As was said folks, these are tough questions for the
end timers.

--

Pastor Dave Raymond

Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide

"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99

/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\

"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html

I feel my answers were honest and easily understood to my best biblical
knowledge, we won't know everything till it happens.
If you're asking questions with an attitude of what ever they say I will
destroy then there is little point carrying on futher. Hence it no longer
becomes a question so much as a chance to attack, which is not very akin to
progress.
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	31 Mar 2005 09:38:03 PM

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:43:16 +0100, while wishing I
would go away, "u2 Fan" <t@t.org> said:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:kg7o41pkthc57ho17sbe2idb5fqdp31d2e@4ax.com...

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:24:07 +0100, while wishing I
would go away, "u2 Fan" <t@t.org> said:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com...

2 Peter 3v7 not only the earth but heavens too

it, why, when the "New Earth" or "New Jerusalem" comes,
will the nations need healing? (Revelation 22:2)? How
can you heal something that is already dead and burned?

2 Peter 3v7 it's the ungodly who are destroyed, the rest are raptured 1
Thess 4v17
Healing is a recovery from discouragement of having gone the tribulation

Copout. This is discussing the time AFTER the new
heaven and earth, when only the faithful are there, in
their new, resurrected bodies. There would be no need
for healing.

To overcome discouragement and dispression.

In hell much like with the parable of the rich man and lazarus

QUESTION #3
If, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no
more death, why does the Bible say there WILL still be
physical death in the New Heaven and New Earth (see
Isaiah 65:17-20, 66:24)?

It's a blend of Rev 20 millenium mortality and the 8th eternal day

You're pulling your answers out of thin air. Nowhere
does the Bible say that. This is after all has been
done.

No mention of sin in Is65v20,

And yet, there is in Revelation 21. You are avoiding
the issue.

Yes, but also no-one knows the day of the Lord

Another avoidance maneuver. You are not even dealing
with the questions asked. You are trying to avoid
them.

The Lord will come physically and every eye shall see him ...

So you think that repeating your belief somehow equates
to an intelligent answer to these questions?

As was said folks, these are tough questions for the
end timers.

I feel my answers were honest and easily understood to my best biblical
knowledge, we won't know everything till it happens.

Then your Biblical knowledge is pathetic. I pointed
out the problems with your answers. Instead of
examining your doctrine, you instead choose to hang
onto it, sacrificing the Bible in the process.

If you're asking questions with an attitude of what ever they say I will
destroy then there is little point carrying on futher. Hence it no longer
becomes a question so much as a chance to attack, which is not very akin to
progress.

If you have no answers, then just say so. Don't post
moronic diatribe and expect someone to consider that to
be an answer that took some thought.
The fact is, you didn't even bother to look it up. You
just posted off the top of your head, based on your man
made doctrine. If you had given it a serious try, that
would be different. Instead, you contradict yourself,
in a weak attempt to salvage the lie that you believe.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.

User: "Mark Earnest"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	30 Mar 2005 04:40:49 PM

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com...

The Earth in the sense of the nations of it, will be saved.
The people are the nations, not the dirt.

The bliss becomes all the more blissful.

You didn't think everyone could fit inside of that building, did you?

QUESTION #3
If, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no
more death, why does the Bible say there WILL still be
physical death in the New Heaven and New Earth (see
Isaiah 65:17-20, 66:24)?

QUESTION #4
If, after the New Heaven and New Earth come, there will
be no more sin, why does Isaiah say there WILL still be
sin (Isaiah 65:20)? Even Jesus Christ said there would
still be sin in the next age (see Matthew 12:32,
Revelation 22:15). And Revelation says that, after the
New Jerusalem comes, there will still be sinners
(Revelation 21:27).

QUESTION #5
If the New Jerusalem is a physical place, and it will
physically come down to earth, why did Jesus say it
would not come with observation, and that people would
not say "look here or look there" (Luke 17:20-21)? Why
not say "look" if it will come with observation? Can
it possibly be because it will be a spiritual kingdom
and not a physical one?

The kingdom of heaven starts in the heart, and completes in the outward,
observable manifestation of the land.

When heaven comes, the rules for reality change.
For example, it will no longer be true that no one has seen God, even
though the scripture says no one has seen God.
--
Sincerely, Mark
Become a friend of angels:
http://www.geocities.com/gmearnest/classic_blue.html
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	30 Mar 2005 04:47:11 PM

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:40:49 -0600, while wishing I
would go away, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> said:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com...

The Earth in the sense of the nations of it, will be saved.
The people are the nations, not the dirt.

The nations will be destroyed as well. There is no
separate nations anymore, according to the doctrine of
the end timers.

The bliss becomes all the more blissful.

That isn't an answer. If there is no more sickness,
then there is no need for healing.

You didn't think everyone could fit inside of that building, did you?

You are responding without any thought whatsoever. Try
reading the passages before you respond and maybe
you'll understand the question. It is apparent that
you don't now and it is also apparent that you don't
know what your Bible says, which proves that you did
not come to believe this end times garbage from the
Bible, but rather, from books, movies and some
preachers.

The kingdom of heaven starts in the heart, and completes in the outward,
observable manifestation of the land.

That's your claim. Now prove it.

When heaven comes, the rules for reality change.
For example, it will no longer be true that no one has seen God, even
though the scripture says no one has seen God.

That's a copout, not an answer.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.

User: "Mark Earnest"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	30 Mar 2005 06:09:59 PM

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:otam41pg97l4seb2qchu20cr4o0p50ju3u@4ax.com...

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:40:49 -0600, while wishing I
would go away, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> said:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com...

The Earth in the sense of the nations of it, will be saved.
The people are the nations, not the dirt.

The nations will be destroyed as well.

Salvation includes destruction, or purging.
John:15:2: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and
every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more
fruit.
There is no

separate nations anymore, according to the doctrine of
the end timers.

The bliss becomes all the more blissful.

That isn't an answer. If there is no more sickness,
then there is no need for healing.

In heaven there is no more pestilence, but the damage to the spirit caused
by it previously...may take awhile to heal and mend from.
Like I said, the bliss becomes more blissful.

You didn't think everyone could fit inside of that building, did you?

I deliberately did not answer that question because the answer is
classified, and not meant to be known until God completes his manifestation
and salvation in the world. Hint: salvation is much greater than we think,
including the number saved.

The kingdom of heaven starts in the heart, and completes in the outward,
observable manifestation of the land.

That's your claim. Now prove it.

Luke 17:20: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of
God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not
with observation:
21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom
of God is within you.
If heaven is within you, then it starts at the heart. There is nothing of
heaven to see that is bigger than a smile on someone's face.
Yet a smile can change the appearance of an entire environment, as its
effects go around the world.

When heaven comes, the rules for reality change.
For example, it will no longer be true that no one has seen God, even
though the scripture says no one has seen God.

That's a copout, not an answer.

When Christ comes, of course people will say, "Here is Christ!" How could
they not? Jesus was just warning us not to accept any claims for one being
Christ until the evidence was as heart and soul shaking...as the lightning
which strikes from the east and is seen as far away as the west.
Like I said, the rules of reality have to change when heaven becomes fully
manifest. The rules of reality changed when Christ raised people from the
dead, so it can and will change.
Mark
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	31 Mar 2005 09:58:00 AM

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:09:59 -0600, while wishing I
would go away, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> said:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:otam41pg97l4seb2qchu20cr4o0p50ju3u@4ax.com...

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:40:49 -0600, while wishing I
would go away, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> said:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com...

The Earth in the sense of the nations of it, will be saved.
The people are the nations, not the dirt.

The nations will be destroyed as well.

Salvation includes destruction, or purging.

John:15:2: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and
every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more
fruit.

Copout. You are not answering directly to the point.

There is no
separate nations anymore, according to the doctrine of
the end timers.

The bliss becomes all the more blissful.

That isn't an answer. If there is no more sickness,
then there is no need for healing.

In heaven there is no more pestilence, but the damage to the spirit caused
by it previously...may take awhile to heal and mend from.
Like I said, the bliss becomes more blissful.

We are not discussing Heaven, but the end timers'
doctrine about a new earth also.

You didn't think everyone could fit inside of that building, did you?

You did not even know what was being asked, because you
did not look at the Scripture.
Enough of this.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	01 Apr 2005 06:53:40 PM

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com...

All questions from...
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/difficult.html
...except #2, which I asked.

QUESTION #1
Assuming the earth will be destroyed with fire, and all
the nations of the earth will be destroyed along with
it, why, when the "New Earth" or "New Jerusalem" comes,
will the nations need healing? (Revelation 22:2)? How
can you heal something that is already dead and burned?
If the New Jerusalem is the saved of all ages, when all
things have ended and we have embarked into eternity;
when sin, death, Hades and Satan have all been cast
into the lake of fire; all evil has been disposed of,
sin has been finally purged; there is no more sickness,
no more hunger or thirst; the former things shall not
be remembered or even come to mind; why would they need
healing if they are now in eternal bliss?

QUESTION #2
If the judgment has taken place and all of the wicked
have been destroyed and there is a new heaven and earth
and only the faithful are there, living forever
(Revelation 20:12 - 21:4), then who are the people
outside of the gates of New Jerusalem (Rev 22:14-15)?

QUESTION #3
If, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no
more death, why does the Bible say there WILL still be
physical death in the New Heaven and New Earth (see
Isaiah 65:17-20, 66:24)?

QUESTION #4
If, after the New Heaven and New Earth come, there will
be no more sin, why does Isaiah say there WILL still be
sin (Isaiah 65:20)? Even Jesus Christ said there would
still be sin in the next age (see Matthew 12:32,
Revelation 22:15). And Revelation says that, after the
New Jerusalem comes, there will still be sinners
(Revelation 21:27).

QUESTION #5
If the New Jerusalem is a physical place, and it will
physically come down to earth, why did Jesus say it
would not come with observation, and that people would
not say "look here or look there" (Luke 17:20-21)? Why
not say "look" if it will come with observation? Can
it possibly be because it will be a spiritual kingdom
and not a physical one?

Return of Christ

This next question is concerning the question the
disciples asked in Matthew 24:3: "And what will be the
sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Here
are a few facts first.

Jesus talked to his disciples about his death but the
apostles did not understand it at all (Matthew
16:21-22, Mark 8:31-32; 9:31-32, Luke 9:44-45;
18:31-34, John 13:33-14:6; 16:16-18). This last account
in the Gospel of John takes place after Jesus had given
them the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24) and they still
did not understand that Jesus was going to leave them
and die. After all, he was God...how can God die? They
had no idea of Jesus leaving, then coming again (John
12:34).

The disciples expected Jesus to be their physical King
and set up a worldly Kingdom at his First Coming
(John 6:15, Luke 24:21), not at his Second Coming.
So did others (Luke 17:20-21; 19:11). Even after the
crucifixion, they still had no concept about his Second
Coming, because they still thought he was going to give
them a physical Kingdom at that time (Acts 1:6).

QUESTION #6
If the apostles had no idea that Jesus was going to
leave them, why would they ask Him about His return
(Matthew 24:3)? How could the disciples have asked a
question about something they knew nothing about?

QUESTION #7
If Jesus is going to come down physically on the Mount
of Olives, why did Christ warn "Then if any man shall
say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it
not" (Matthew 24:23)? Why can't we believe someone who
would say, "Lo there is Christ descending on the Mount
of Olives!"? Can it possibly be because it will be a
spiritual coming and not a physical one?

--

Pastor Dave Raymond

Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide

"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99

/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\

"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html

Build you doctrines first on The prophets in The Tenakh as the foundation,
the issue with you Dave and many others id that you build theologies from
the NT working backwards rather than building form the Tenakh moving
forwards.
you don't ignore the foundation you build on the foundation you don't tear
down the foundation then look to build another one. If Yeshua truly did this
then he was a false Messiah.
which is it?
.

User: "c130"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	01 Apr 2005 08:58:39 PM

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------090001030305030704050003
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This site has some good links on end times
http://www.users.bigpond.com/aswetzel/_private/eschatology.htm
Even sign the guest book after a look.
Scott wrote:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com...

Build you doctrines first on The prophets in The Tenakh as the foundation,
the issue with you Dave and many others id that you build theologies from
the NT working backwards rather than building form the Tenakh moving
forwards.

you don't ignore the foundation you build on the foundation you don't tear
down the foundation then look to build another one. If Yeshua truly did this
then he was a false Messiah.

which is it?

--------------090001030305030704050003
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
This site has some good links on end times
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.users.bigpond.com/aswetzel/_private/eschatology.htm">http://www.users.bigpond.com/aswetzel/_private/eschatology.htm</a> 
 
Even sign the guest book after a look. 
 
Scott wrote: 
<blockquote cite="mido2m3e.2799$ZV5.1323@fed1read05" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">"Pastor Dave" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com"><news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com></a> wrote in message
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com">news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com</a>...
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
All questions from...
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/difficult.html">http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/difficult.html</a>
....except #2, which I asked.
QUESTION #1
Assuming the earth will be destroyed with fire, and all
the nations of the earth will be destroyed along with
it, why, when the "New Earth" or "New Jerusalem" comes,
will the nations need healing? (Revelation 22:2)? How
can you heal something that is already dead and burned?
If the New Jerusalem is the saved of all ages, when all
things have ended and we have embarked into eternity;
when sin, death, Hades and Satan have all been cast
into the lake of fire; all evil has been disposed of,
sin has been finally purged; there is no more sickness,
no more hunger or thirst; the former things shall not
be remembered or even come to mind; why would they need
healing if they are now in eternal bliss?
QUESTION #2
If the judgment has taken place and all of the wicked
have been destroyed and there is a new heaven and earth
and only the faithful are there, living forever
(Revelation 20:12 - 21:4), then who are the people
outside of the gates of New Jerusalem (Rev 22:14-15)?
QUESTION #3
If, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no
more death, why does the Bible say there WILL still be
physical death in the New Heaven and New Earth (see
Isaiah 65:17-20, 66:24)?
QUESTION #4
If, after the New Heaven and New Earth come, there will
be no more sin, why does Isaiah say there WILL still be
sin (Isaiah 65:20)? Even Jesus Christ said there would
still be sin in the next age (see Matthew 12:32,
Revelation 22:15). And Revelation says that, after the
New Jerusalem comes, there will still be sinners
(Revelation 21:27).
QUESTION #5
If the New Jerusalem is a physical place, and it will
physically come down to earth, why did Jesus say it
would not come with observation, and that people would
not say "look here or look there" (Luke 17:20-21)? Why
not say "look" if it will come with observation? Can
it possibly be because it will be a spiritual kingdom
and not a physical one?
Return of Christ
This next question is concerning the question the
disciples asked in Matthew 24:3: "And what will be the
sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Here
are a few facts first.
Jesus talked to his disciples about his death but the
apostles did not understand it at all (Matthew
16:21-22, Mark 8:31-32; 9:31-32, Luke 9:44-45;
18:31-34, John 13:33-14:6; 16:16-18). This last account
in the Gospel of John takes place after Jesus had given
them the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24) and they still
did not understand that Jesus was going to leave them
and die. After all, he was God...how can God die? They
had no idea of Jesus leaving, then coming again (John
12:34).
The disciples expected Jesus to be their physical King
and set up a worldly Kingdom at his First Coming
(John 6:15, Luke 24:21), not at his Second Coming.
So did others (Luke 17:20-21; 19:11). Even after the
crucifixion, they still had no concept about his Second
Coming, because they still thought he was going to give
them a physical Kingdom at that time (Acts 1:6).
QUESTION #6
If the apostles had no idea that Jesus was going to
leave them, why would they ask Him about His return
(Matthew 24:3)? How could the disciples have asked a
question about something they knew nothing about?
QUESTION #7
If Jesus is going to come down physically on the Mount
of Olives, why did Christ warn "Then if any man shall
say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it
not" (Matthew 24:23)? Why can't we believe someone who
would say, "Lo there is Christ descending on the Mount
of Olives!"? Can it possibly be because it will be a
spiritual coming and not a physical one?
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html">http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Build you doctrines first on The prophets in The Tenakh as the foundation,
the issue with you Dave and many others id that you build theologies from
the NT working backwards rather than building form the Tenakh moving
forwards.
you don't ignore the foundation you build on the foundation you don't tear
down the foundation then look to build another one. If Yeshua truly did this
then he was a false Messiah.
which is it?
</pre>
</blockquote>
 
</body>
</html>
--------------090001030305030704050003--
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	02 Apr 2005 09:52:11 AM

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 02:58:39 GMT, while wishing I would
go away, c130 <c130@hotmail.com> said:

This site has some good links on end times
http://www.users.bigpond.com/aswetzel/_private/eschatology.htm

Interesting. :)
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.

User: "Chuck Stamford"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	02 Apr 2005 03:39:55 AM

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gm7m419qqgeoeneqh467t2njgm98il5o6b@4ax.com...

It seems that you're comparing two different visions as if they were
supposed to exist in heaven side by side, and I don't think that's right.
Revelation is similar to Daniel in many places and aspects. Both contain
prophetic visions with an eschatological theme. Revelation 21 (the vision
of the New Jerusalem) and Revelation 22 (the vision of the river of life
flowing out of the throne of God and the Lamb) are two seperate visions
linked by the eschatological reality their symbolism expresses.
Now Dave, I think even you will agree that no matter what one's
eschatological bent is, the visions in Revelation are given in metaphorical
language. And I think that if you think about it for two seconds, you'll
also agree that the symbolism in Revelation is at some places different, yet
expresses the same or similar reality from a different perspective or with a
different emphasis, so to speak, just as in Daniel. So given that chapters
21 and 22 in Revelation express two different visions of the same or similar
reality, the way in which this first question is framed is somewhat
incoherent or ignoring of that fact. It seems to be asking how these two
visions can exist side by side when that isn't what is being prophecied here
at all. Chapter 22 appears very much like a restatement of chapter 21 using
different symbolism for a different empahsis.

Dave, it doesn't say where the Lake of Fire is, but I'll bet it's outside
the walls of the New Jerusalem!
"But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and
idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Rev 22:15 (NKJV)

QUESTION #3
If, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no
more death, why does the Bible say there WILL still be
physical death in the New Heaven and New Earth (see
Isaiah 65:17-20, 66:24)?

There is a 1,000 year period between the return of Christ to the earth (at
the end of the great tribulation) and the second resurrection (Rev.
20:12-15). Since not all are killed by the events of the great tribulation,
it will be the survivors who will re-populate the earth during this time,
because all the righteous in Christ will have been resurrected or translated
at Christ's return (1 Cor. 15: 51-57, 1 Thess. 4:15-18). Some of these
survivors will be Jews living in Jerusalem, and some of the Jews who have
received their Messiah, and died professing the Gospel (as for instance, the
Apostles, and the 144,000, and probably millions of others down through the
ages) will be among those who rule with Christ during this time as "kings
and priests" (Rev. 5:9-14) having been resurrected in the first resurrection
(Rev. 20:4-6), and some, if not all of them, will also undoubtedly reside in
Jerusalem for that 1,000 years (since Israel is the "apple" of His eye!).
So Isaiah is correct. There will be a new Jerusalem different in large
extent from any that has existed on the earth until that time, and in it
will be saints and sinners, but no Satanic influences. But this is not the
New Jerusalem spoken of in Revelation 21, so there is no conflict between
Isaiah and Revelation on this point.

God's word often portrays sin and death as cause and effect, and I think
this is what is going on here. So this question is simply question #3
repackaged, so to speak, and the answer for #3 works just as well here.

First show me where Revelation says that New Jerusalem is a physical place,
or that it comes down to earth.
Why

not say "look" if it will come with observation? Can
it possibly be because it will be a spiritual kingdom
and not a physical one?

If the New Jerusalem is completely "spiritual", that would mean it was
completely immaterial. We are not given sufficient information about the
New Jerusalem in Revelation (or anywhere else in Scripture that I know of)
to say either with certainty, but we ARE given sufficient information about
the bodily resurrection of the righteous dead in Christ to say with
certainty that THEY will not be completely immaterial. And since THEY will
inhabit the New Jerusalem, there is a natural inferrence that they will be
able to relate to it with their entire being/nature, which would necessitate
it can be physically related to. So the answer seems to be that it will be
both physical and spiritual. How much of either is something we'll just
have to wait to see.

Return of Christ

This next question is concerning the question the
disciples asked in Matthew 24:3: "And what will be the
sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Here
are a few facts first.

This has been done to death, and every question anyone could possibly think
up as an objection to the future return of Christ has been answered in
spades for at least the last 2,000 years! With that kind of background
there's simply no point in going over it again here.
God bless
Chuck Stamford
.

User: "bill ramsay"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	02 Apr 2005 06:17:41 AM

what about an alternative theory?
it's all bollocks.
kind regards
bill ramsay.
.

User: "Chuck Stamford"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	02 Apr 2005 10:36:51 AM

"bill ramsay" <bill.ramsay@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:2a3t419lf78lopie1993qf7dm0qvjnh2nn@4ax.com...

what about an alternative theory?

it's all bollocks.

kind regards

bill ramsay.

Well everyone entitled to their own theory, and yours is certainly easier to
type out whatever else may be its shortcomings.
Chuck Stamford
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	31 Mar 2005 10:13:14 AM

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:56:16 GMT, while wishing I would
go away, Pastor Dave
<news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> said:

All questions from...
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/difficult.html
...except #2, which I asked.

As was said folks, these would be tough questions for
the futurists to answer.
Notice how they are not directly answering the
questions and in fact, are not even looking up the
passages to see what they say. Rather, they are just
spitting out the typical end timer answers, that avoid
actually dealing with the specifics of the issue and
they are even paying attention to the time line that
Scripture states.
I figured this would be the type of reaction this post
would get, but I wanted the readers to see that they
don't have any real answers to these questions and
anyone who looks up the passages and pays attention to
the time line that the questions show, will realize
that the answers given thus far are completely bogus.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Tough Questions for Futurists	31 Mar 2005 10:14:20 AM

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:13:14 GMT, while wishing I would
go away, Pastor Dave
<news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> said:
Addendum:

Notice how they are not directly answering the
questions and in fact, are not even looking up the
passages to see what they say. Rather, they are just
spitting out the typical end timer answers, that avoid
actually dealing with the specifics of the issue and
they are even paying attention to the time line that
Scripture states.

"...aren't even paying attention to the time line..."
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.

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