| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
10 Jun 2004 11:24:16 AM |
| Object: |
Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have
scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have, but they
interpret the evidence some other way. For example, orthodox science
teaches that the surface of the earth has been shaped in many places
by powerful glaciers during a series of ice ages. But apparent
evidence of glacial activity can sometimes be the result of water
action. Very likely, then, some of the evidence for the Flood is
being misread as evidence of an ice age.
Similar mistakes have been made. Concerning the time when
scientists were developing their theory of ice ages, we read: They
were finding ice ages at every stage of the geologic history, in
keeping with the philosophy of uniformity. Careful reexamination of
the evidence in recent years, however, has rejected many of these ice
ages; formations once identified as glacial moraines have been
reinterpreted as beds laid down by mudflows, submarine landslides and
turbidity currents: avalanches of turbid water that carry silt, sand
and gravel out over the deep-ocean floor.
Another evidence for the Flood appears to exist in the fossil
record. At one time, according to this record, great saber-toothed
tigers stalked their prey in Europe, horses larger than any now
living roamed North America, and mammoths foraged in Siberia. Then,
all around the world, species of mammals became extinct. At the same
time, there was a sudden change of climate. Tens of thousands of
mammoths were killed and quick-frozen in Siberia. Alfred Wallace, the
well-known contemporary of Charles Darwin, considered that such a
widespread destruction must have been caused by some exceptional
worldwide event. Many have argued that this event was the Flood.
An editorial in the magazine Biblical Archaeologist observed: “It
is important to remember that the story of a great flood is one of
the most widespread traditions in human culture . . . Nevertheless
behind the oldest traditions found in Near Eastern sources, there may
well be an actual flood of gigantic proportions dating from one of
the pluvial periods . . . many thousands of years ago.” The
pluvial periods were times when the surface of the earth was much
wetter than now. Freshwater lakes around the world were much larger.
It is theorized that the wetness was caused by heavy rains associated
with the end of the ice ages. But some have suggested that on one
occasion the extreme wetness of the earth’s surface was a result of
the Flood.
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
.
|
|
| User: "JTEM" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
11 Jun 2004 07:19:57 AM |
|
|
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote
If we grant that a great flood could have happened,
why have scientists found no trace of it?
If we base our opinions on the evidence, we grant no
such thing.
But apparent evidence of glacial activity can sometimes
be the result of water action.
Cites?
What, you don't have any? This is all "Creationists" speculation
attempting to gloss over the mountains of evidence proving
science correct?
We knew that.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
10 Jun 2004 04:47:32 PM |
|
|
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in
news:20040610.092509.25778.96490@webmail21.nyc.untd.com:
If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have
scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have, but they
interpret the evidence some other way. For example, orthodox science
You can't interpret something like that away. The layer needs to be
global, present everywhere it has not been eroded. Do you know how FEW
places have actually eroded significantly in the past 4500 years?
teaches that the surface of the earth has been shaped in many places
by powerful glaciers during a series of ice ages. But apparent
evidence of glacial activity can sometimes be the result of water
action. Very likely, then, some of the evidence for the Flood is
being misread as evidence of an ice age.
Glacial activity is NOTHINg like hydraulic activity. To see the results
of a flood of biblical proportions (though a regional one) go to Spokane,
WA and drive west on I90 during daylight. You cannnot miss the flood
signs. THAT flood took place around 12,000 years ago, nearly three times
as long ago as the Genesis flood is claimed by literalists to have
covered the entire globe.
There are a host of problems with a global flood, not the least of which
is the timing. It is to be noted that the Septuagint chronology, unlike
that of Ussher, places the Genesis flood at just about the time of the
Black Sea inundation. Moreover, there is nothing in the text of Genesis
that mandates a global flood. That seems to be more of an assumption
made by later readers.
Similar mistakes have been made. Concerning the time when
scientists were developing their theory of ice ages, we read: They
were finding ice ages at every stage of the geologic history, in
keeping with the philosophy of uniformity. Careful reexamination of
the evidence in recent years, however, has rejected many of these ice
ages; formations once identified as glacial moraines have been
reinterpreted as beds laid down by mudflows, submarine landslides and
turbidity currents: avalanches of turbid water that carry silt, sand
and gravel out over the deep-ocean floor.
Another evidence for the Flood appears to exist in the fossil
record. At one time, according to this record, great saber-toothed
tigers stalked their prey in Europe, horses larger than any now
living roamed North America, and mammoths foraged in Siberia. Then,
all around the world, species of mammals became extinct. At the same
time, there was a sudden change of climate. Tens of thousands of
mammoths were killed and quick-frozen in Siberia. Alfred Wallace, the
well-known contemporary of Charles Darwin, considered that such a
widespread destruction must have been caused by some exceptional
worldwide event. Many have argued that this event was the Flood.
An editorial in the magazine Biblical Archaeologist observed: “It
is important to remember that the story of a great flood is one of
the most widespread traditions in human culture . . . Nevertheless
behind the oldest traditions found in Near Eastern sources, there may
well be an actual flood of gigantic proportions dating from one of
the pluvial periods . . . many thousands of years ago.” The
pluvial periods were times when the surface of the earth was much
wetter than now. Freshwater lakes around the world were much larger.
It is theorized that the wetness was caused by heavy rains associated
with the end of the ice ages. But some have suggested that on one
occasion the extreme wetness of the earth’s surface was a result of
the Flood.
If one sticks to the dead literal interpretation of Genesis, then the
questions of where the water came from and where it went have to be
answered. And the question of which ubiquitous global layer represents
the flood needs to be answered. That is, these questions need to be
answered before anyone can claim to have a SCIENTIFIC theory of a global
flood.
--
Dave Oldridge
ICQ 1800667
Paradoxically, most real events are highly improbable.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "John Baker" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
10 Jun 2004 03:49:20 PM |
|
|
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:20040610.092509.25778.96490@webmail21.nyc.untd.com...
If we grant that a great flood could have happened,
Which 'we' don't.
why have scientists found no trace of it?
Because it didn't happen. Case closed.
<remaining idiocy snipped>
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
11 Jun 2004 11:15:54 AM |
|
|
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message news:<kP3yc.27758$Oa7.16632@fe1.columbus.rr.com>...
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:20040610.092509.25778.96490@webmail21.nyc.untd.com...
If we grant that a great flood could have happened,
Which 'we' don't.
why have scientists found no trace of it?
Because it didn't happen. Case closed.
<remaining idiocy snipped>
Geology professor John McCampbell once wrote: "The essential
differences between Biblical catastrophism [the Flood] and
evolutionary uniformitarianism are not over the factual data of
geology but over the interpretations of those data. The
interpretation preferred will depend largely upon the background and
presuppositions of the individual student."
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
13 Jun 2004 08:23:21 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:49:20 GMT, "John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote:
If we grant that a great flood could have happened,
Which 'we' don't.
why have scientists found no trace of it?
Because it didn't happen. Case closed.
And your basis for such a wild and unrevealed silliness is...............what?
duke
*****
I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear
it now. When he comes, the Holy Spirit will declare
to you the things that are coming. John 16:12-15.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
13 Jun 2004 07:48:05 PM |
|
|
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:i8loc0hn0n6j6n926fklndg6t4fp6a10ba@4ax.com...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:49:20 GMT, "John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote:
If we grant that a great flood could have happened,
Which 'we' don't.
why have scientists found no trace of it?
Because it didn't happen. Case closed.
And your basis for such a wild and unrevealed silliness
is...............what?
duke
Lack of evidence.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
13 Jun 2004 08:14:12 PM |
|
|
"Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:10cpte8373p7b1e@corp.supernews.com...
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:i8loc0hn0n6j6n926fklndg6t4fp6a10ba@4ax.com...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:49:20 GMT, "John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote:
If we grant that a great flood could have happened,
Which 'we' don't.
why have scientists found no trace of it?
Because it didn't happen. Case closed.
And your basis for such a wild and unrevealed silliness
is...............what?
Lack of evidence.
Earl does not believe the flood was real either, he just likes to argue.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
13 Jun 2004 12:49:08 PM |
|
|
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:i8loc0hn0n6j6n926fklndg6t4fp6a10ba@4ax.com...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:49:20 GMT, "John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote:
If we grant that a great flood could have happened,
Which 'we' don't.
why have scientists found no trace of it?
Because it didn't happen. Case closed.
And your basis for such a wild and unrevealed silliness
is...............what?
Physics, chemistry, geology, biology to start.
Intertidal invertebrates. Tropical fish.
But thanks for admitting in another post in this thread that all the gods
exist.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Robert Schneider" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
10 Jun 2004 12:38:35 PM |
|
|
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:20040610.092509.25778.96490@webmail21.nyc.untd.com...
If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have
scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have, but they
interpret the evidence some other way. For example, orthodox science
teaches that the surface of the earth has been shaped in many places
by powerful glaciers during a series of ice ages. But apparent
evidence of glacial activity can sometimes be the result of water
action. Very likely, then, some of the evidence for the Flood is
being misread as evidence of an ice age.
Floods don't move 50 ton boulders 2000 miles. Period. Nor do they cut 50
ton boulders out of igneous bedrock.
Similar mistakes have been made. Concerning the time when
scientists were developing their theory of ice ages, we read: They
were finding ice ages at every stage of the geologic history, in
keeping with the philosophy of uniformity. Careful reexamination of
the evidence in recent years, however, has rejected many of these ice
ages; formations once identified as glacial moraines have been
reinterpreted as beds laid down by mudflows, submarine landslides and
turbidity currents: avalanches of turbid water that carry silt, sand
and gravel out over the deep-ocean floor.
There were no ice ages during the Cretaceous Period. In fact, there is no
clear evidence that the Earth even had polar ice caps then.
Another evidence for the Flood appears to exist in the fossil
record. At one time, according to this record, great saber-toothed
tigers stalked their prey in Europe, horses larger than any now
living roamed North America, and mammoths foraged in Siberia. Then,
all around the world, species of mammals became extinct. At the same
time, there was a sudden change of climate. Tens of thousands of
mammoths were killed and quick-frozen in Siberia. Alfred Wallace, the
well-known contemporary of Charles Darwin, considered that such a
widespread destruction must have been caused by some exceptional
worldwide event. Many have argued that this event was the Flood.
Outburst flooding and mudslides are better explanations. Using a gradual
40-day global rain doesn't work. They wouldn't drown until water was over
their heads and the warmth of the water would prevent them from freezing for
the term of the flood, giving them plenty of time to rot.
An editorial in the magazine Biblical Archaeologist observed: "It
is important to remember that the story of a great flood is one of
the most widespread traditions in human culture . . . Nevertheless
behind the oldest traditions found in Near Eastern sources, there may
well be an actual flood of gigantic proportions dating from one of
the pluvial periods . . . many thousands of years ago." The
pluvial periods were times when the surface of the earth was much
wetter than now. Freshwater lakes around the world were much larger.
Due to glacial damming, huge freshwater lakes formed such as Lake Missoula.
It is theorized that the wetness was caused by heavy rains associated
with the end of the ice ages. But some have suggested that on one
occasion the extreme wetness of the earth's surface was a result of
the Flood.
Kettles formed by a retreating glacier is still a better explanation.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
10 Jun 2004 03:56:54 PM |
|
|
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:20040610.092509.25778.96490@webmail21.nyc.untd.com...
If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have
scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have, but they
interpret the evidence some other way. For example, orthodox science
teaches that the surface of the earth has been shaped in many places
by powerful glaciers during a series of ice ages. But apparent
evidence of glacial activity can sometimes be the result of water
action. Very likely, then, some of the evidence for the Flood is
being misread as evidence of an ice age.
Yes, it's easy to reach any conclusion when you start with it.
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
13 Jun 2004 08:22:11 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:56:54 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
Yes, it's easy to reach any conclusion when you start with it.
Ah, so much for not believing in God.
duke
*****
I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear
it now. When he comes, the Holy Spirit will declare
to you the things that are coming. John 16:12-15.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
13 Jun 2004 03:57:43 PM |
|
|
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:o6loc0homc3p37al25sku2eii2ma150k30@4ax.com...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:56:54 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
Yes, it's easy to reach any conclusion when you start with it.
Ah, so much for not believing in God.
That's not a conclusion you moron, it's a default position.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
13 Jun 2004 05:15:48 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:57:43 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
Ah, so much for not believing in God.
That's not a conclusion you moron, it's a default position.
Oh, now I remember. You're the idiot that professes the default position.
Of course I agree - the default conclusion is clearly that God exists. No other
explanation is reasonable.
duke
*****
I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear
it now. When he comes, the Holy Spirit will declare
to you the things that are coming. John 16:12-15.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
14 Jun 2004 05:40:39 PM |
|
|
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:qdkpc0ha18qj6a0vp635hrv36abofeeoj5@4ax.com...
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:57:43 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
Ah, so much for not believing in God.
That's not a conclusion you moron, it's a default position.
Oh, now I remember. You're the idiot that professes the default position.
Yes I am, I don't think it's idiotic. If it is, I'm simply wrong.
Of course I agree -
You call professing a default position idiotic, yet now profess a default
position. Does this mean you are deliberately idiotic?
(snip)
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
14 Jun 2004 01:14:44 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:15:48 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
Of course I agree - the default conclusion is clearly that God exists.
Why?
No other
explanation is reasonable
No other explanation of what?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bill Smith" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
14 Jun 2004 02:08:29 AM |
|
|
A comma in the "To" field can be used in Message Rules to delete messages
addressed to multiple newsgroups.
Bye Bye!
Bill
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:lhgqc05vsf4lrp3fscs8ssgs8k4ubmrv6l@4ax.com...
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:15:48 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
Of course I agree - the default conclusion is clearly that God exists.
Why?
No other
explanation is reasonable
No other explanation of what?
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Bill Smith" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
13 Jun 2004 04:19:01 PM |
|
|
You don't have to believe in creationism to believe in God.
But Please! Drop sci.geo.geology from this thread.
There is no reason to send identical comments to 4 news groups, ever.
Bill
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:5I-dnYQ7mtNaIlHdRVn-hA@io.com...
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:o6loc0homc3p37al25sku2eii2ma150k30@4ax.com...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:56:54 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
wrote:
Yes, it's easy to reach any conclusion when you start with it.
Ah, so much for not believing in God.
That's not a conclusion you moron, it's a default position.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Daryl Krupa" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
10 Jun 2004 09:17:12 PM |
|
|
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message news:<20040610.092509.25778.96490@webmail21.nyc.untd.com>...
<snip>
Tens of thousands of mammoths were killed and quick-frozen
in Siberia.
No, they weren't. Some mammoths were frozen after they got
caught in bogs or crevasses or cracks in the permafrost.
No sudden freezing has been demonstrated.
<snip>
An editorial in the magazine Biblical Archaeologist observed: ?It
is important to remember that the story of a great flood is one of
the most widespread traditions in human culture . . . Nevertheless
behind the oldest traditions found in Near Eastern sources, there may
well be an actual flood of gigantic proportions dating from one of
the pluvial periods . . . many thousands of years ago.? The
pluvial periods were times when the surface of the earth was much
wetter than now. Freshwater lakes around the world were much larger.
Pluvial periods affected certain limited portions of the Earth's
surface that are now dry areas. They occurred at the same time as
glaciations, when weather patterns shifted southward, causing dry
areas to experience the wetter climates of modern temperate latitudes.
_Some_ freshwater lakes were larger, and others existed that do not
now exist. Pluvial Lkae Bonneville was one of them, but it only
covered part of teh American Southwest, in and around Utah. It
drained via the Snake River, but only affected the Snake River
valley and the Columbia valley.
The Caspian Sea was larger for a short time, and overflowed to
the Black Sea, and then into the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, but
not catastrophically.
(And the Black Sea may never have catastrophically flooded at all.)
It is theorized that the wetness was caused by heavy rains associated
with the end of the ice ages. But some have suggested that on one
occasion the extreme wetness of the earth?s surface was a result of
the Flood.
Sorry, but those people are not familiar with the Earth's history.
Daryl Krupa
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "John Norris" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
15 Jun 2004 12:39:23 PM |
|
|
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message news:<20040610.092509.25778.96490@webmail21.nyc.untd.com>...
If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have
scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have,...
Traces of the Flood in the fossil records sounds like fossilized water
to me.
JohnN
Yes, yes I know. The water has to dehydrate before fossiliztion.
Damn, do I have to tell you people everthing?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Thore Schmechtig" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
11 Jun 2004 12:49:10 AM |
|
|
Tens of thousands of
mammoths were killed and quick-frozen in Siberia. Alfred Wallace, the
well-known contemporary of Charles Darwin, considered that such a
widespread destruction must have been caused by some exceptional
worldwide event. Many have argued that this event was the Flood.
Not that The Flood(TM) would have DROWNED the mammoths instead of
quick-frezing them. Also, not that actually very very few frozen
mammoths have been found, and not that they weren't exactly in that
good a shape...
An editorial in the magazine Biblical Archaeologist observed: ´It
is important to remember that the story of a great flood is one of
the most widespread traditions in human culture . . . Nevertheless
behind the oldest traditions found in Near Eastern sources, there may
well be an actual flood of gigantic proportions dating from one of
the pluvial periods . . . many thousands of years ago.ˇ
Too bad that there are countless myths about _A_ flood, not _THE_
flood. So many differences between the tales...
Also, too bad that those pesky Egyptians and Chinese just blatantly
IGNORED The Flood(TM), living their lifes completely undisturbed by the
fact that they were all drowned...
The
pluvial periods were times when the surface of the earth was much
wetter than now. Freshwater lakes around the world were much larger.
It is theorized that the wetness was caused by heavy rains associated
with the end of the ice ages. But some have suggested that on one
occasion the extreme wetness of the earth˙s surface was a result of
the Flood.
Uh huh. After The Flood(TM) that mingled all the seawater and the
freshwater, for some magical reason only freshwater remained to form
lakes. Uh huh. Fundie "logic". Uh huh.
Let me guess: "GAWD DID IT". The only explanation you ever need, if you
are a babblical cretinist.
--
UNWRITTEN RULES OF (PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN) FUNDAMENTALISM
(Found in alt.bible, authors unknown)
1. "I'm right and you are wrong".
2. Never admit that you are wrong, even if you really are.
3. When you have nothing to say, hurl insults.
4. Regard and portray your own violence, whether physical, psychological,
or verbal, at all times as defensive
4a. Specific example for 4.: Cry for "freedom of religion", but whenever followers of other faiths want the same freedom and courts agree, scream "Persecution!"
5. Be prepared at all times to lie and bluster, particularly when backed
into a corner in an argument
5a. When caught lying, always accuse the opposition of lying rather than be honest and admit the obvious
6. Never accept responsibility for any mess you have personally caused.
7. When you are forced to admit to an error, regard the whole process of
error and correction as part of God's personal plan for you and not as a
something for which you should apologise retract or make amends except
verbally and secretly to God himself
8. Always see yourself and you personal actions as part of God's plans for
the world. Recognise that even your errors are just part of Gods will for
the betterment of mankind.
9.Profess humility but avoid the actual experience of it.
10.Refuse to take in information that differs from your own view and
oppose all such information through classification of such information in
a derogatory and simplistic manner(eg by categorising it as left wing
propaganda)
11.Refuse to accept that truth is not black and white; that reality is
complex and there are shades of grey
12.Refuse to forgive anyone else for anything unless you purport to
forgive on behalf of other people unconnected with you for whom you don't
have that right anyhow.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "mel turner" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
10 Jun 2004 09:54:21 PM |
|
|
In article <20040610.092509.25778.96490@webmail21.nyc.untd.com>,
Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] [Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]] wrote...
If we grant that a great flood could have happened,
We don't grant that. A global Flood couldn't and didn't happen.
Geologists have understood this since the 18th century.
why have
scientists found no trace of it?
Because it simply didn't happen. It's just a story. It may be a
story of some very deep religious allegoric/symbolic significance
or whatever, but it's clearly not accurate history.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-flood.html
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/fld.htm
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/dmd.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/
http://www.geocities.com/earthhistory/
http://www.google.com/custom?q=flood&sa=Search&sitesearch=www.talkorigins.org
Perhaps they have, but they
interpret the evidence some other way. For example, orthodox science
teaches that the surface of the earth has been shaped in many places
by powerful glaciers during a series of ice ages. But apparent
evidence of glacial activity can sometimes be the result of water
action.
Yes, millions of tons of _frozen_ water, over hundreds or
thousands of years.
Very likely, then, some of the evidence for the Flood is
being misread as evidence of an ice age.
More likely, you're making false claims, whether you believe
them or not.
[snip]
Another evidence for the Flood appears to exist in the fossil
record.
There is no evidence for any global Flood, in the fossil record
or elsewhere. The geologists who first realized this were themselves
religious believers, "creationists" who unlike modern antievolutionists
followed the scientific evidence where it led.
At one time, according to this record, great saber-toothed
tigers stalked their prey in Europe, horses larger than any now
living roamed North America, and mammoths foraged in Siberia. Then,
all around the world, species of mammals became extinct. At the same
time, there was a sudden change of climate.
No, not exactly, but so what? Climate and faunal changes aren't
a "Flood".
Tens of thousands of
mammoths were killed and quick-frozen in Siberia.
Wrong. That's just a myth. There are no quick-frozen mammoths.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC361_2.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mammoths.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-add.html
[snip equally unfounded stuff]
cheers
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "littleboy" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
10 Jun 2004 01:26:07 PM |
|
|
In article <20040610.092509.25778.96490@webmail21.nyc.untd.com>, Use-
Author-Address-Header@[127.1] says...
=20
=20
If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have
scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have, but they
interpret the evidence some other way. For example, orthodox science
teaches that the surface of the earth has been shaped in many places
by powerful glaciers during a series of ice ages. But apparent
evidence of glacial activity can sometimes be the result of water
action. Very likely, then, some of the evidence for the Flood is
being misread as evidence of an ice age.
=20
Would you please give some evidence for this this misreading of the=20
evidence. My geology references say quite the opposite, especially in=20
that outwashes of glacial debris are quite distinct from other=20
sedimentary deposits.
Similar mistakes have been made. Concerning the time when
scientists were developing their theory of ice ages, we read: They
were finding ice ages at every stage of the geologic history, in
keeping with the philosophy of uniformity. Careful reexamination of
the evidence in recent years, however, has rejected many of these ice
ages; formations once identified as glacial moraines have been
reinterpreted as beds laid down by mudflows, submarine landslides and
turbidity currents: avalanches of turbid water that carry silt, sand
and gravel out over the deep-ocean floor.
=20
Another evidence for the Flood appears to exist in the fossil
record. At one time, according to this record, great saber-toothed
tigers stalked their prey in Europe, horses larger than any now
living roamed North America, and mammoths foraged in Siberia. Then,
all around the world, species of mammals became extinct. At the same
time, there was a sudden change of climate. Tens of thousands of
mammoths were killed and quick-frozen in Siberia. Alfred Wallace, the
well-known contemporary of Charles Darwin, considered that such a
widespread destruction must have been caused by some exceptional
worldwide event. Many have argued that this event was the Flood.
An editorial in the magazine Biblical Archaeologist observed: =3D3FIt
is important to remember that the story of a great flood is one of
the most widespread traditions in human culture .=A0.=A0. Nevertheless
behind the oldest traditions found in Near Eastern sources, there may
well be an actual flood of gigantic proportions dating from one of
the pluvial periods .=A0.=A0. many thousands of years ago.=3D3F The
pluvial=A0periods=A0were times when the surface of the earth was much
wetter than now. Freshwater lakes around the world were much larger.
It is theorized that the wetness=A0was caused by heavy rains associated
with the end of the ice ages. But some have suggested that on one
occasion the extreme wetness of the earth=3D3Fs surface was a result of
the Flood.
=20
Yes, and some people have suggested that the Earth (soon to renamed the=20
Reagan as the United States of Reagan was deemed to not be sufficiently=20
respectful) was flat. I daresay the evidence for a wet climate is quite=20
distinct from a completely submerged world.
However, I must congratulate on you cutting and pasting skills. Keep up=20
the good work and you may soon be promoted to the 3rd grade. And=20
remember, don't run with those scissors, you could put your eye out.
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
=20
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "MarkA" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
11 Jun 2004 07:01:50 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:24:16 +0000, Use-Author-Address-Header wrote:
If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have
scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have, but they interpret the
Floods are common. What is a "great" flood? Are some floods better than
others? If you are proposing a single flood that covered the entire world
simultaneously, that is extremely improbable, and the obvious explanation
why scientists have found no trace of it is that it didn't happen.
Take, for example, the Biblical myth of a global flood. Supposedly, it
rained for 40 days and nights, resulting in the world being completely
submerged. Given that the peak of Mount Everest is 29,000 feet above sea
level, you would need rain coming down at a rate of 6 inches per minute
for the entire time, and the resulting volume of water would be 3 times
greater than the current volume of all the oceans.
An infinitely more likely scenario is that a local population of people
experienced a major flood, and in generations of re-telling through oral
history it got embellished into a global flood, brought on by the anger of
their deity. Eventually, it got written down, and incorporated into
someone's set of holy writings. Nowadays, a small group of people, who
are afraid to question the validity of their religious teachings for fear
that their entire belief system will come crashing down, are hard at work
trying to figure out a way to rationalize the lack of scientific data, and
the theoretic impossibility of the story. They invest so much energy and
attention to the project that they fail to notice how idiotic they appear
to everyone who has even a little sense of balance. They are rather like
the "cargo cult" people of the Pacific Islands. We think they are
amusing, and can even understand how their belief system got established,
but we certainly don't take their obviously flawed belief system seriously.
<snip>
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Terrell D Lewis" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
11 Jul 2004 06:58:29 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:01:50 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
An infinitely more likely scenario is that a local population of people
experienced a major flood, and in generations of re-telling through oral
history it got embellished into a global flood, brought on by the anger of
their deity. Eventually, it got written down, and incorporated into
someone's set of holy writings.
Actually, it's almost a universal myth, recorded as a flood in the
Tanakh and Babylonian mythology, as Atlantis stories in another, but a
flood myth of one form or another shows up all over the globe in
various mythologies.
Terrell
.
|
|
|
| User: "El Guapo" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
11 Jul 2004 09:18:09 AM |
|
|
"Terrell D Lewis" <composer7NOSPAM@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:fja2f01epdm4ievd5sgdte5b8u8d0lfd03@4ax.com...
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:01:50 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
An infinitely more likely scenario is that a local population of people
experienced a major flood, and in generations of re-telling through oral
history it got embellished into a global flood, brought on by the anger
of
their deity. Eventually, it got written down, and incorporated into
someone's set of holy writings.
Actually, it's almost a universal myth, recorded as a flood in the
Tanakh and Babylonian mythology, as Atlantis stories in another, but a
flood myth of one form or another shows up all over the globe in
various mythologies.
Is actual flooding so rare that flood myths should be a surprise? Most
civiliations are located next to water. As devastating and terrifying as
floods can be now, they would have been far worse in the past to an
unprepared population receiving no warning. Well, you know how humans are.
Whatever nature throws at us, not only can we can imagine it being much
worse, but we kind of like doing so. (Just look at our modern fascination
with over the top disaster movies.)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Synyc" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
20 Jul 2004 08:54:16 PM |
|
|
"El Guapo" <plethora@pinatas.com> wrote in message news:<x_bIc.52119$JR4.11878@attbi_s54>...
"Terrell D Lewis" <composer7NOSPAM@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:fja2f01epdm4ievd5sgdte5b8u8d0lfd03@4ax.com...
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:01:50 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
An infinitely more likely scenario is that a local population of people
experienced a major flood, and in generations of re-telling through oral
history it got embellished into a global flood, brought on by the anger
of
their deity. Eventually, it got written down, and incorporated into
someone's set of holy writings.
Actually, it's almost a universal myth, recorded as a flood in the
Tanakh and Babylonian mythology, as Atlantis stories in another, but a
flood myth of one form or another shows up all over the globe in
various mythologies.
Is actual flooding so rare that flood myths should be a surprise? Most
civiliations are located next to water. As devastating and terrifying as
floods can be now, they would have been far worse in the past to an
unprepared population receiving no warning. Well, you know how humans are.
Whatever nature throws at us, not only can we can imagine it being much
worse, but we kind of like doing so. (Just look at our modern fascination
with over the top disaster movies.)
A tick of the cosmic clock, even less perhaps. That's how long we've
been here. Debates over what happened 5,000 or 5,000,000 years ago can
be amusing when one remembers that we cannot agree on events that took
place during the last 50 years. The Kennedy assasination was caught on
tape, but we still have no consensus of what really happened. Then we
turn around and claim to 'know' what happened many millions of years
ago. There were floods, but none were global. There was an asteroid
impact, the dinosaurs did become extinct, but there is no proof that
the two are related. It is a possibility, but it is hardly proven.
There are other possibilities. For example, the one presented in the
novel Full Circle by Michael Boyle. In general, we should question
things that cannot be proven.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
20 Jul 2004 10:12:59 PM |
|
|
Synyc wrote:
"El Guapo" <plethora@pinatas.com> wrote in message
A tick of the cosmic clock, even less perhaps. That's how long we've
been here. Debates over what happened 5,000 or 5,000,000 years ago can
be amusing when one remembers that we cannot agree on events that took
place during the last 50 years. The Kennedy assasination was caught on
tape, but we still have no consensus of what really happened. Then we
turn around and claim to 'know' what happened many millions of years
ago. There were floods, but none were global. There was an asteroid
impact, the dinosaurs did become extinct, but there is no proof that
the two are related. It is a possibility, but it is hardly proven.
There are other possibilities. For example, the one presented in the
novel Full Circle by Michael Boyle. In general, we should question
things that cannot be proven.
Learn a little about science and what a theory is. Except for the proof part
what you describe is exactly what science does every single second.
Proof is for math and in some cases even then it is being questioned.
Novels, even really good hard science fiction novels, are stories and not
science.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Synyc" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
21 Jul 2004 10:59:28 PM |
|
|
"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<%alLc.24405$X6.14258@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
Synyc wrote:
"El Guapo" <plethora@pinatas.com> wrote in message
A tick of the cosmic clock, even less perhaps. That's how long we've
been here. Debates over what happened 5,000 or 5,000,000 years ago can
be amusing when one remembers that we cannot agree on events that took
place during the last 50 years. The Kennedy assasination was caught on
tape, but we still have no consensus of what really happened. Then we
turn around and claim to 'know' what happened many millions of years
ago. There were floods, but none were global. There was an asteroid
impact, the dinosaurs did become extinct, but there is no proof that
the two are related. It is a possibility, but it is hardly proven.
There are other possibilities. For example, the one presented in the
novel Full Circle by Michael Boyle. In general, we should question
things that cannot be proven.
Learn a little about science and what a theory is. Except for the proof part
what you describe is exactly what science does every single second.
The difference between scientific theory and religious dogma is that
all scientific theories can, in principle, be disproven. As an
example, Stephen Hawking just made major revisions to his work
describing the behaviour of black holes. Theories gain credence by
withstanding challenges, not by avoiding them.
Proof is for math and in some cases even then it is being questioned.
Actually, this is a very interesting point. Mathematics, as you may
know, is not technically a science, since the validity of its
conclusions are not established by experiment. Richard Feynman often
made this point, noting that math is a tool (and a very important one)
of science, but it is not itself a science. Godel's transfinite set
theory is the first example that comes to mind. Mathematically proven,
yes. But.... believe it, or not...
Novels, even really good hard science fiction novels, are stories and not
science.
I do not claim that the book describes what really happened. It's
possible, but as a man once said "I wasn't there at the time." Still,
it was a hugely entertaining tale.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Joseph Malik" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
23 Jul 2004 08:53:55 AM |
|
|
Hi all,
Regarding the flood, the evidence in scripture supports a local and not a
global flood as most teach. Mankind had not yet spread over the globe and
flooding the planet was not necessary to remove the problem presented at the
time. Any evidence of floods at other times or anywhere else would simply be
coincidental to the flood in Noah's time and not related to it.
Thr Watchtower is wrong on this matter as are some others, it is that
simple. The term "world" does not mean planet in this case just as the word
"all" does not mean everything when used. Such words must be understood
realistically and in context. The problem is not with scripture. The problem
is with those teaching from like Jehovah's witnesses.
Joseph
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Traces of the Flood In the fossil record |
11 Jul 2004 07:02:22 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:58:29 GMT, Terrell D Lewis
<composer7NOSPAM@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:01:50 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:
An infinitely more likely scenario is that a local population of people
experienced a major flood, and in generations of re-telling through oral
history it got embellished into a global flood, brought on by the anger of
their deity. Eventually, it got written down, and incorporated into
someone's set of holy writings.
Actually, it's almost a universal myth, recorded as a flood in the
Tanakh and Babylonian mythology, as Atlantis stories in another, but a
flood myth of one form or another shows up all over the globe in
various mythologies.
(a) It's not universal.
(b) Where societies have flood myths, they're not even the same myth.
Terrell
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
