| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Winter JNAHC" |
| Date: |
20 Nov 2003 06:59:29 PM |
| Object: |
Trinitarians really are polytheistic and lost |
Trinitarianism is, however, not merely stupid and foolish, it is
a spiritually fatal error.
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the
fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of
season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and
doctrine.
Remission of sins is essential for sinful humanity to be
"sin free". The word "salvation" means free from sin.
In Acts 2:38 we see that sins are remitted (washed away) by
Jesus name baptism. Now the trinitarian is not really
worshipping the Jesus of the Bible, so they see no need to be
baptised in Jesus name (even though the Bible clearly commands
it). They think that their three gods need three separate
"titles" in baptism.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized
every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of
sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children,
and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God
shall call.
This is because Jesus really is the Great "I AM" of the Bible.
His name is the ONLY saving name.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is
none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be
saved.
So, you see, trinity preachers really are deceiving people into
an eternity in hell. I don't just say that to be mean, but
rather in the service of truth.
Both of the following statements were spoken by the same person:
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said,
Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent
me unto you.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily , verily, I say unto
you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Now the false christian will not accept that Jesus is "I AM".
They "don't believe". They are "non-believers".
That is why Jesus said that those who would not accept that He
really was the "I AM" would die in their sins.
1. Those who do not see Jesus as "I AM" see no need to be
baptised in the name of Jesus.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your
sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your
sins.
2. Sins are remitted by Jesus name baptism.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,
and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
3. Those who don't believe in Jesus will refuse Jesus name
baptism and will die with their sins UN-REMITTED.
1 Timothy 5:24 Some men’s sins are open beforehand, going before
to judgment; and some men they follow after.
That is why Jesus said:
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your
sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your
sins.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but
he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into
the kingdom of God.
Sins are washed away by Jesus name baptism. That is why the
Bible commands it, so you can "put on Christ".
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ
have put on Christ.
Trinitarians are deceived by their filthy preachers into refusing
to "put on Christ".
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call
his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism
of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe
on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name
of the Lord Jesus.
What did the people do immediately when Paul told them
to believe on Jesus?
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,
and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee,
of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other
man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same
scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain
water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder
me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou
mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is
the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went
down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he
baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of
the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and
he went on his way rejoicing.
Notice how the eunuch understood that believing on Jesus included
being baptised. You now have several examples from the Word of
God where hearers of the Word of God knew that belief in Jesus
included baptism.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand
souls.
Even on the day of Pentecost, on the birthday of the New
Testament Church, there were 3000 baptised in Jesus Name. Those
that receive the Word of God get baptised.
Look back just two verses and see that Peter preached Jesus Name
baptism.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized
every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of
sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and
to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall
call.
Pastor sTeve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.pentecostal.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
Email to let them know how you feel about
their blatant religious discrimination against www.prerapture.org
.
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| User: "Lance S. Ferm" |
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| Title: Trinitarians really are saved! |
21 Nov 2003 08:15:49 PM |
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Mat 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing
them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am
with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
http://www.truthandgrace.com
"Demon Winter JNAHC" <steveNONO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message
news:5poqrvku4dod0d11v9tl1fh3vp9dclu6tf@4ax.com...
Trinitarianism is, however, not merely stupid and foolish, it is
a spiritually fatal error.
.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are saved! |
21 Nov 2003 09:23:46 PM |
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On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mat 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing
them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am
with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
"Amen"? Never. The baptismal formula you quote is not a
trinitarian statement at all. It's simply a liturgical method
accompanying baptism which initiates baptismal candidates by the
sponsorship of ("in the name of") the one, single God. God, Jesus's
Father. Jesus, the Son, who is not God, but rather God's messianic
agent. The Holy Spirit, which is neither Father nor Son, but their
combined activity in the world. No trinitarianim there at all.
- pl -
.
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| User: "Lance S. Ferm" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are saved! |
23 Nov 2003 06:52:57 PM |
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John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in
My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all
things that I said to you."
http://www.truthandgrace.com/
"untaught penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:sbltrvgumobln6kt1rgm0kcqhoef29d3j5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mat 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing
them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I
am
with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
"Amen"? Never. The baptismal formula you quote is not a
trinitarian statement at all. It's simply a liturgical method
accompanying baptism which initiates baptismal candidates by the
sponsorship of ("in the name of") the one, single God. God, Jesus's
Father. Jesus, the Son, who is not God, but rather God's messianic
agent. The Holy Spirit, which is neither Father nor Son, but their
combined activity in the world. No trinitarianim there at all.
- pl -
.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are saved! |
23 Nov 2003 10:08:32 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:52:57 GMT, "Bible Dunce Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in
My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all
things that I said to you."
http://www.truthandgrace.com/
"untaught penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:sbltrvgumobln6kt1rgm0kcqhoef29d3j5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mat 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing
them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I
am
with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
"Amen"? Never. The baptismal formula you quote is not a
trinitarian statement at all. It's simply a liturgical method
accompanying baptism which initiates baptismal candidates by the
sponsorship of ("in the name of") the one, single God. God, Jesus's
Father. Jesus, the Son, who is not God, but rather God's messianic
agent. The Holy Spirit, which is neither Father nor Son, but their
combined activity in the world. No trinitarianim there at all.
You've managed to act like a fundamentalist, which is to say,
stupidly. The text you quote has not the Tiniest Holiest Ghost of
Trinitarianism in it. That doesn't stop your diseased fundie-fantasy
from imagining it, though.
- pl -
.
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| User: "Phillip Ray Holmes" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are saved! |
27 Nov 2003 11:28:57 PM |
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penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message news:<jt03svgdp4dlthhqeu9n4rs887l87o4lgk@4ax.com>...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:52:57 GMT, "Bible Dunce Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in
My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all
things that I said to you."
http://www.truthandgrace.com/
"untaught penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:sbltrvgumobln6kt1rgm0kcqhoef29d3j5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mat 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing
them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I
am
with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
"Amen"? Never. The baptismal formula you quote is not a
trinitarian statement at all. It's simply a liturgical method
accompanying baptism which initiates baptismal candidates by the
sponsorship of ("in the name of") the one, single God. God, Jesus's
Father. Jesus, the Son, who is not God, but rather God's messianic
agent. The Holy Spirit, which is neither Father nor Son, but their
combined activity in the world. No trinitarianim there at all.
You've managed to act like a fundamentalist, which is to say,
stupidly. The text you quote has not the Tiniest Holiest Ghost of
Trinitarianism in it. That doesn't stop your diseased fundie-fantasy
from imagining it, though.
- pl -
If you haven't spoke in other Tongues as the spirit gives the
utterance your not saved yet either. It takes more than repeating a
-prayer and shaking the preachers hand. Or signing a Church Membership
ACTS 2:38 Acts 4:12
Colossians 2:9-10 1 Timothy 3:16 Romans 1:20 Colossians 1:14-17
Revelations 4:2 How many did John see setting on the Throne in
Revelations 4:2?????? ONE
Re read your Holy Bible Starting in
St. Luke Chapter 24 verses 45-49
Explain St. John 10:30 1 John 4:7 Acts 4:12 Colossians
2:9-10,13-15
James 2:19 Revelations 4:2 Deut 6:4 Isaiah 42:8 Isaiah 42:10-13,15
Isaiah 44:6,7 Isaiah 45:5-7 Isaiah 45:22-23 Isaiah 46:9
Isaiah 48:11-12 Genesis 1:27 Deut 4:39 Deut 5:7-8 Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 13:8 Revelation 22:13 1 John 2:22-23 James 4:12
James 2:19 Romans 1:20 Colossians 2:9,10 Zechariah 14:9
2 Chronicles 7:14 Jeremiah 10:10-11 Jeremiah 10:6
1 Timothy 3:16 St. John1:1-5,9-10,11-14 1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 10:4 2 Corinthians 4:6 Galatians 4:4,5
Philippians 4:5-11 Colossians 1:14-19 2 Timothy 1:6-9
Hebrews 6:18-20 Jude 1:4 Revelations 1:8
Romans 10:13 St. Matthew 11:27 St. Matthew 28:17-20 (titles) not
names
St Mark 12:29 very ONENESS Scriptures about God, aka Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God, he has always God, and will always be God
Phillip Ray Holmes
1455 Keene Road
Enville, TN 38332
.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are saved! |
28 Nov 2003 06:05:28 PM |
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On 27 Nov 2003 21:28:57 -0800, (Phillip Ray Holmes)
wrote:
penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message news:<jt03svgdp4dlthhqeu9n4rs887l87o4lgk@4ax.com>...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:52:57 GMT, "Bible Dunce Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in
My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all
things that I said to you."
http://www.truthandgrace.com/
"untaught penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:sbltrvgumobln6kt1rgm0kcqhoef29d3j5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mat 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing
them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I
am
with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
"Amen"? Never. The baptismal formula you quote is not a
trinitarian statement at all. It's simply a liturgical method
accompanying baptism which initiates baptismal candidates by the
sponsorship of ("in the name of") the one, single God. God, Jesus's
Father. Jesus, the Son, who is not God, but rather God's messianic
agent. The Holy Spirit, which is neither Father nor Son, but their
combined activity in the world. No trinitarianim there at all.
You've managed to act like a fundamentalist, which is to say,
stupidly. The text you quote has not the Tiniest Holiest Ghost of
Trinitarianism in it. That doesn't stop your diseased fundie-fantasy
from imagining it, though.
- pl -
If you haven't spoke in other Tongues as the spirit gives the
utterance your not saved yet either.
Unfortunately, Paul disagrees with you, placing glossalalia fairly
far down on the list of charisms, not to mention that none of the
charisms counts without the greatest gift, love.
It takes more than repeating a
-prayer and shaking the preachers hand. Or signing a Church Membership
Irrelevant, as I'm neither a church-goer nor a Christian.
ACTS 2:38 Acts 4:12
Colossians 2:9-10 1 Timothy 3:16 Romans 1:20 Colossians 1:14-17
Revelations 4:2 How many did John see setting on the Throne in
Revelations 4:2?????? ONE
Re read your Holy Bible Starting in
St. Luke Chapter 24 verses 45-49
Explain St. John 10:30 1 John 4:7 Acts 4:12 Colossians
2:9-10,13-15
James 2:19 Revelations 4:2 Deut 6:4 Isaiah 42:8 Isaiah 42:10-13,15
Isaiah 44:6,7 Isaiah 45:5-7 Isaiah 45:22-23 Isaiah 46:9
Isaiah 48:11-12 Genesis 1:27 Deut 4:39 Deut 5:7-8 Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 13:8 Revelation 22:13 1 John 2:22-23 James 4:12
James 2:19 Romans 1:20 Colossians 2:9,10 Zechariah 14:9
2 Chronicles 7:14 Jeremiah 10:10-11 Jeremiah 10:6
1 Timothy 3:16 St. John1:1-5,9-10,11-14 1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 10:4 2 Corinthians 4:6 Galatians 4:4,5
Philippians 4:5-11 Colossians 1:14-19 2 Timothy 1:6-9
Hebrews 6:18-20 Jude 1:4 Revelations 1:8
Romans 10:13 St. Matthew 11:27 St. Matthew 28:17-20 (titles) not
names
St Mark 12:29 very ONENESS Scriptures about God, aka Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God, he has always God, and will always be God
Jesus Christ is not God, he was never God, and he will never be God.
Throwing chapter and verse around without quoting the actual texts
is a cheap ploy. And if you do post actual texts, I'll shoot 'em down
one by one. Happily.
- pl -
.
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| User: "Mark Fox" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are saved! |
29 Nov 2003 11:35:22 PM |
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penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
Jesus Christ is not God, he was never God, and he will never be God.
I believe he is. Not because anyone told me so but because its obvious
to me.
but just for sake of argument. Lets say you are right and he isn't.
Would that really change anything. Would it cancel the wisdom, the
poetry, the genius, the remarkable story of the human race that is the
Bible?
.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are saved! |
30 Nov 2003 01:15:10 AM |
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On 29 Nov 2003 21:35:22 -0800, (Mark Fox) wrote:
penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
Jesus Christ is not God, he was never God, and he will never be God.
I believe he is. Not because anyone told me so but because its obvious
to me.
That's fine with me. I have no quarrel if you just happen to think
it's obvious. My quarrel is with those who think it's _not_ obvious,
and therefore noisily twist scripture's meaning to fit their literal
incarnational christology/theology.
but just for sake of argument. Lets say you are right and he isn't.
For argument's sake, okay ... he's not god... then...
Would that really change anything. Would it cancel the wisdom, the
poetry, the genius, the remarkable story of the human race that is the
Bible?
It would enhance:
"salvation history" because we would have a human messianic agent,
a true "pioneer and perfector of our faith" on whom God sent the
Spirit and who, like pioneers everywhere, "blazed the trail" for us.
We would also lose the hybrid "godman" whose example is meaningless as
a "pioneer" because it's really only a theological rendition of "ET
and His Adventure On Earth".
It would change:
the peculiar perspective pervading mainstream Christianity that
Jesus is God and therefore the God who "wrote" the Bible was really
Jesus all along, and the Son of God who was prophesied was really
Jesus all along, and the Holy Spirit who inspired the Prophets was
really Jesus all along, etc., etc. That is, it would drastically
change not the _contents_ of the Bible, but its meaning. It would
remove the literal incarnational prophecy-and-coming of
God-in-the-flesh for both mainline Trinitarians and for the more
peripheral Pentecostal "Oneness" groups.
- pl -
.
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| User: "Phillip Ray Holmes" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are not saved! |
27 Nov 2003 11:20:09 PM |
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penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message news:<jt03svgdp4dlthhqeu9n4rs887l87o4lgk@4ax.com>...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:52:57 GMT, "Bible Dunce Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in
My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all
things that I said to you."
http://www.truthandgrace.com/
"untaught penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:sbltrvgumobln6kt1rgm0kcqhoef29d3j5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mat 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing
them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I
am
with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
"Amen"? Never. The baptismal formula you quote is not a
trinitarian statement at all. It's simply a liturgical method
accompanying baptism which initiates baptismal candidates by the
sponsorship of ("in the name of") the one, single God. God, Jesus's
Father. Jesus, the Son, who is not God, but rather God's messianic
agent. The Holy Spirit, which is neither Father nor Son, but their
combined activity in the world. No trinitarianim there at all.
You've managed to act like a fundamentalist, which is to say,
stupidly. The text you quote has not the Tiniest Holiest Ghost of
Trinitarianism in it. That doesn't stop your diseased fundie-fantasy
from imagining it, though.
- pl -
There is no Trinity, never has been, never will be a Holy Trinity?
Re read your Holy Bible Starting in
St. Luke Chapter 24 verses 45-49
Explain St. John 10:30 1 John 4:7 Acts 4:12 Colossians 2:9-10,13-15
James 2:19 Revelations 4:2 Deut 6:4 Isaiah 42:8 Isaiah 42:10-13,15
Isaiah 44:6,7 Isaiah 45:5-7 Isaiah 45:22-23 Isaiah 46:9
Isaiah 48:11-12 Genesis 1:27 Deut 4:39 Deut 5:7-8 Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 13:8 Revelation 22:13 1 John 2:22-23 James 4:12
James 2:19 Romans 1:20 Colossians 2:9,10 Zechariah 14:9
2 Chronicles 7:14 Jeremiah 10:10-11 Jeremiah 10:6
1 Timothy 3:16 St. John1:1-5,9-10,11-14 1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 10:4 2 Corinthians 4:6 Galatians 4:4,5
Philippians 4:5-11 Colossians 1:14-19 2 Timothy 1:6-9
Hebrews 6:18-20 Jude 1:4 Revelations 1:8
Romans 10:13 St. Matthew 11:27 St. Matthew 28:17-20 (titles) not names
St Mark 12:29 very ONENESS Scriptures about God, aka Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God, he has always God, and will always be God
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD
Phillip Ray Holmes
1455 Keene Road
Enville, TN 38332
.
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| User: "L Perez" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are not saved! |
28 Nov 2003 01:07:40 AM |
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"Phillip Ray Holmes" <ctn27548@yahoo.com> wrote in message
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST
IS GOD
lemme guess... you had your fingers in your ears when you were saying
that...
.
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| User: "Phillip Ray Holmes" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are not saved! |
28 Nov 2003 07:37:52 PM |
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"L Perez" <LPerezDncr@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<17WdnS1lptmjaVuiRVn-vw@comcast.com>...
"Phillip Ray Holmes" <ctn27548@yahoo.com> wrote in message
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST
IS GOD
lemme guess... you had your fingers in your ears when you were saying
that...
Sorry for my misqoute but here I corrected
it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE................. St. John
14:6
St John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your
sins: for if you believe not that I am he, ye shall sie in your sins
Jesus Christ said "I am the way the truth and the life". Not we ARE
THE LIFE, THE WAY, AND THE TRUTH! But I am.........
But, He also did say "I am the LIGHT."!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Phillip Ray Holmes
1455 Keene Road
Enville,TN 38332
ctn27548@yahoo.com
.
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| User: "L Perez" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are not saved! |
28 Nov 2003 08:15:00 PM |
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"Phillip Ray Holmes" <ctn27548@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d8f9d6ea.0311281737.22bc8447@posting.google.com...
"L Perez" <LPerezDncr@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<17WdnS1lptmjaVuiRVn-vw@comcast.com>...
"Phillip Ray Holmes" <ctn27548@yahoo.com> wrote in message
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS
CHRIST
IS GOD
lemme guess... you had your fingers in your ears when you were saying
that...
Sorry for my misqoute but here I corrected
it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE................. St. John
14:6
St John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your
sins: for if you believe not that I am he, ye shall sie in your sins
Jesus Christ said "I am the way the truth and the life". Not we ARE
THE LIFE, THE WAY, AND THE TRUTH! But I am.........
But, He also did say "I am the LIGHT."!!!!!!!!!!!!!
all of which is fine but he also prayed to YHWH and repeatedly emphasized
his relationship to YHWH
John 17:3-5
John 20:17
John 5:19
John 14:28
Mark 10:18
Matthew 26:39
John 8:17-18
Mark 13:32
Matthew 20:23
.
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| User: "Shinco" |
|
| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are not saved! |
28 Nov 2003 05:40:58 AM |
|
|
DON'T SAY TRINITY SAY UNITY!
Here are the facts, it's up to you now...
1) No prophet neither before nor after Jesus preached the Trinity. All
prophets preached to people ONE God and the Oneness of God. Jesus never
mentioned the trinity.
2) The one verse (I John 5:7) which asserts the unity of the three who bear
witness in heaven has long known to be a forgery, the work of Roman
Catholics in North Africa. This forgery was made public by Sir Isaac Newton,
who found that some of the oldest manuscripts have not been altered.
3) The Pentateuch, which Christians believe in, never mentions the Trinity.
How did he become 3 in 1 later? The God of Moses is the same God of Jesus.
Why and how was the God of Moses one and the God of Jesus three in one?
4) The Old Testament NEVER mentions the Trinity. God all through the Old
Testament is one. How did He suddenly become three in one? God who sent
Moses is the same God who sent Jesus. God does not change in nature or
number.
5) Jesus was born. So he is a creature of God. How can a creature unite with
the Creator to form the Trinity?
6) Jesus was BORN (Matt 1:1). So he doesn't exist before his birth. How
could the Trinity exist before Jesus' birth?
7) The Holy Spirit was created by God. Therefore before his creation, the
Trinity would be impossible. How could the Trinity exist before the creation
of Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
8) Jesus said," but of the DAY and HOUR kows no man, no, not the angels of
heaven, but my Father ony."(Matt 24:36) If Jesus and the Holy Spirit, are
INFERIOR to the Father in knowledge, then The Father only is GOD and neither
Jesus nor the Holy Spirit are equal to the Father. If so, they are not
qualified to unite with Him in the so called Trinity. This means Jesus is
Jesus, Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit and God is God. Not one in three, nor
three in one.
9) If Jesus came from hi Father, then he is subordinate to HIM. So Jesus
cannot be equal to God and thus cannot be an equal god.
10) Had Jesus been a member of the Trinity, he would have had abilities
equal to God, but Jesus often thanked God, prayed to him and asked for His
help. This proves Jesus is subordinate to God. Thus he cannot be God's
partner or equal.
11) Jesus said." The Lord our God is ONE Lord": (Matt 12:29) Jesus himself
says that God in one. He didn't say 3 or 3 in 1.
12) Jesus refused to be called good and said," None is good, save ONE that
is God." (Luke 18:19) If "good" does not apply to Jesus, as Jesus himself
asserts and it applies to God only, then Jesus cannot be equal to God and
thus cannot be a member of the Trinity because Jesus lacks a basic quality
of God. ie goodness. If he rejected to be called good, would he accept to be
called God?
13) Look at what Paul says about God, "Who is the blessed and ONLY
Potentate, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1 Timothy 6:15) He says that
God is the ONLY Potentate. ONLY means ONE. Even Paul did not say 3 in 1.
JESUS IS NOT GOD!
1) Jesus's admission. Jesus said," I cast out devils by the Spirit of God.:
(Matt 12.28). He admits his miracles are not by his own power but by the
power of God.
2) Jesus said," I am NOT sent BUT unto the lost sheep of the house of
ISRAEL." (Matt 15:24) This text shows that he is a messeger sent by God to
the people of Israel only. How can he be God and be sent to the house of
Israel only? Is God to a certain people only?
3) When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the multitude said," This is Jesus, the
prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." (Matt 21:11) This text shows that he is
prophet, not God. How can Jesus be a prophet and God at the same time?
4) Jesus said," And call no man your father upon the earth;for ONE is your
father which is in heaven." (Matt 23:9) Jesus here assets that God is one
and HE is in heaven. How can Jesus on the earth be God when God is only one
in Heaven?
5) On the cross, Jesus was reported to say," My God, why has thou forsaken
me?" (Matt 27:46) He called his God and asked for help. How can Jesus be GOD
and call GOD and ask him for his help? Was he calling himself?
6) "Jesus yielded up the ghost." (Matt 27:50) Jesus died on the cross,
according to the gospels. How can he be God and be dead at the same time?
Does God Die? Death is human, not divine.
7) Jesus said," Whoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but HIM that
sent me." (Matt 9:37). This proves that he was a prophet sent by God. How
can he be God and be sent by God?
8) Jesus said that no man or angel, not even Jesus himself knows when the
Day of Judgment will happen (Matt 13:32) How can Jesus be God and be
ignorant of the time of that DAY?
9) "Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and stature." (Luke 2:42) Does God grow in
wisdom and body and age? Growing is human, not divine.
10) Jesus "continued all night in prayer to God." (Luke 6:12) How can Jesus
be God and be praying to God? Praying is human, not divine.
11) When Jesus, by God's will, put life into a dead person," they glorified
GOD, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us." (Luke 7:16) The
audience glorified GOD and not Jesus and they referred to Jesus as a great
prophet, not as GOD.
12) Jesus said," I THANK thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth." (Luke
10:21) How can Jesus be God if he himself thanks God? Thanking God is a
human behavior.
13) "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, STRENGTHENING him."
(Luke 22:43) An angel came down to strengthen Jesus in that night before the
soldiers came to seize him. How can he be GOD and be strengthened by an
angel?
14) Jesus said," I can of mine own self do nothing." (John 5:30) He admits
that he is helpless and weak by himself and is supported by God. How can
Jesus be God and not self-dependent at the same time?
15) Jesus said," He that hears my word and believes I him that sent me has
everlasting life." (John 5:24) Jesus admits here that he was sent by God as
his messenger and thus not God.
16) Jesus said blaming the Jews who wanted to kill him," But now you seek to
kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God. (John
8:40). Jesus clearly says he is a man receiving revelation from God. How can
he be God and be receiving revelation from God?
JESUS IS NOT THE SON OF GOD!
1) According to the gospels, Jesus is the son of David (Matt. 1:1). And "the
Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David." (Luke 1:32).
How can Jesus be the son of David and the son of God at the same time? No
one can be the son of two different fathers.
2) Jesus was born (Matt. 2:2). Sonship requires agreement in major
qualitites. If God has no beginning, so should his son. Because Jesus was
born, he has a beginning. Jesus thus cannot be God's son because they differ
in a major quality.
3) Jesus said: Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the
children of God." (Matt. 5:9). All peacemakers, according to Jesus, are God'
s sons. Hence Jesus is not God's only son? If the "children" here is used
figuratively, why is "son" literal about Jesus but figurative about others?
Why not consistently figurative?
4) Jesus said, "Glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matt 5:16).
Jesus said," Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven
perfect." (Matt 5:48)
The text shows that God is the Father of all people because Jesus is here
addressing a crowd of people. Thus "Father" is not a literal father; the
word is used figuratively to mean protector or guardian. So God is not the
Father of Jesus only, but He is also the Father of all humans. This proves
that whenever Father and Son are used in relation to God they are and should
be used figuratively. Neither the Father is a literal Father nor is the son
a literal son.
5) Jesus himself asserts that he is the SON OF MAN in dozens of places in
the gospels e.g Matt. 8:27, Matt 9:6, Matt 13:8, Matt 13:40. So how can he
be the son of man and the son of God at the same time?
6) Oh, by the way Jesus himself NEVER said anywhere in the gospels that he
is the son of God. He spoke about his Father in heaven (Matt 7:21). But this
does not prove that Jesus is the son of God literally because there are
dozens of texts in the gospels saying that God is the Father of all people
and that peacemakers, for eg, are God's children.
7) Jesus often prayed to GOD (Matt 14:23) Sonship implies father -son
equality in characteristics. The son can do what his father can. Since the
Father dos not pray, neither should the son. Since Jesus pray, this
disproves his sonship to God. Prayer proves SUBORDINATION and disproves
equality.
8) Some argue for the sonship of Jesus to God on account that he had no
human father. However, this argument is not true since Adam did not have a
human father or mother; and this did not make Adam, God's son literally.
9) If God is the Father of Jesus literally, why did Matthew give a 41
generation genealogical tree for Jesus?! And why did Luke give a 76
generation genealogical tree? If Jesus was the son of God, the genealogical
tree of Jesus should be one sentence ie Jesus is the son of God.
10) Verses in the Bible mentions Jesus' father to be sometimes Abraham,
sometimes Joseph, and sometime God. Why the uncertainty? Because in fact
Jesus had no father at all. He is the son of Mary; that's all.
11) John refers to Jesus as "the ONLY begotten son of God" (John 3:18) But
this contradicts Luke, who said that Adam is the son of God (Luke 3:38)
12) Jesus himself says," That they might know thee the only true God and
Jesus Christ whom thou has sent." (John 17:3) Jesus asserts here the Oneness
of God by saying "the only true God" He makes it clear that God in ONE and
he is the messenger of God. Too bad he was misunderstood.
13) Paul frequently uses the word "son" figuratively as well. He says " For
as many are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God." (Romans
8:14). This proves that the term "God's son or sons" will be more acceptable
if taken figuratively rather than literally. The figurative explanation of
"God's son" entails no complexities whereas the literal explanation results
in a drastic destruction of the whole message of Jesus and all prophets.
14) Let us see what God says about himself in the Old Testament. He says ,"
I am God unrivalled, God who has no like." (Isaiah 46:9) the text shows that
God is one since he is unrivalled and He has no like or equal or partner.
Since God has no like, Jesus cannot be God's son because a on is a like to
his father. No like implies no son. No rival implies no other God. So this
text refutes the divinity of Jesus and his sonship to God.
"Phillip Ray Holmes" <ctn27548@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d8f9d6ea.0311272120.4023b3f8@posting.google.com...
penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:<jt03svgdp4dlthhqeu9n4rs887l87o4lgk@4ax.com>...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:52:57 GMT, "Bible Dunce Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send
in
My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance
all
things that I said to you."
http://www.truthandgrace.com/
"untaught penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:sbltrvgumobln6kt1rgm0kcqhoef29d3j5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mat 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing
them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy
Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and
lo, I
am
with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
"Amen"? Never. The baptismal formula you quote is not a
trinitarian statement at all. It's simply a liturgical method
accompanying baptism which initiates baptismal candidates by the
sponsorship of ("in the name of") the one, single God. God, Jesus's
Father. Jesus, the Son, who is not God, but rather God's messianic
agent. The Holy Spirit, which is neither Father nor Son, but their
combined activity in the world. No trinitarianim there at all.
You've managed to act like a fundamentalist, which is to say,
stupidly. The text you quote has not the Tiniest Holiest Ghost of
Trinitarianism in it. That doesn't stop your diseased fundie-fantasy
from imagining it, though.
- pl -
There is no Trinity, never has been, never will be a Holy Trinity?
Re read your Holy Bible Starting in
St. Luke Chapter 24 verses 45-49
Explain St. John 10:30 1 John 4:7 Acts 4:12 Colossians 2:9-10,13-15
James 2:19 Revelations 4:2 Deut 6:4 Isaiah 42:8 Isaiah 42:10-13,15
Isaiah 44:6,7 Isaiah 45:5-7 Isaiah 45:22-23 Isaiah 46:9
Isaiah 48:11-12 Genesis 1:27 Deut 4:39 Deut 5:7-8 Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 13:8 Revelation 22:13 1 John 2:22-23 James 4:12
James 2:19 Romans 1:20 Colossians 2:9,10 Zechariah 14:9
2 Chronicles 7:14 Jeremiah 10:10-11 Jeremiah 10:6
1 Timothy 3:16 St. John1:1-5,9-10,11-14 1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 10:4 2 Corinthians 4:6 Galatians 4:4,5
Philippians 4:5-11 Colossians 1:14-19 2 Timothy 1:6-9
Hebrews 6:18-20 Jude 1:4 Revelations 1:8
Romans 10:13 St. Matthew 11:27 St. Matthew 28:17-20 (titles) not
names
St Mark 12:29 very ONENESS Scriptures about God, aka Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God, he has always God, and will always be God
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST
IS GOD
Phillip Ray Holmes
1455 Keene Road
Enville, TN 38332
.
|
|
|
| User: "Phillip Ray Holmes" |
|
| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are not saved! |
28 Nov 2003 07:43:03 PM |
|
|
"Shinco" <shicoresx@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bq7baj$6c9$1@mawar.singnet.com.sg>...
DON'T SAY TRINITY SAY UNITY!
Here are the facts, it's up to you now...
1) No prophet neither before nor after Jesus preached the Trinity. All
prophets preached to people ONE God and the Oneness of God. Jesus never
mentioned the trinity.
2) The one verse (I John 5:7) which asserts the unity of the three who bear
witness in heaven has long known to be a forgery, the work of Roman
Catholics in North Africa. This forgery was made public by Sir Isaac Newton,
who found that some of the oldest manuscripts have not been altered.
3) The Pentateuch, which Christians believe in, never mentions the Trinity.
How did he become 3 in 1 later? The God of Moses is the same God of Jesus.
Why and how was the God of Moses one and the God of Jesus three in one?
4) The Old Testament NEVER mentions the Trinity. God all through the Old
Testament is one. How did He suddenly become three in one? God who sent
Moses is the same God who sent Jesus. God does not change in nature or
number.
5) Jesus was born. So he is a creature of God. How can a creature unite with
the Creator to form the Trinity?
6) Jesus was BORN (Matt 1:1). So he doesn't exist before his birth. How
could the Trinity exist before Jesus' birth?
7) The Holy Spirit was created by God. Therefore before his creation, the
Trinity would be impossible. How could the Trinity exist before the creation
of Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
8) Jesus said," but of the DAY and HOUR kows no man, no, not the angels of
heaven, but my Father ony."(Matt 24:36) If Jesus and the Holy Spirit, are
INFERIOR to the Father in knowledge, then The Father only is GOD and neither
Jesus nor the Holy Spirit are equal to the Father. If so, they are not
qualified to unite with Him in the so called Trinity. This means Jesus is
Jesus, Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit and God is God. Not one in three, nor
three in one.
9) If Jesus came from hi Father, then he is subordinate to HIM. So Jesus
cannot be equal to God and thus cannot be an equal god.
10) Had Jesus been a member of the Trinity, he would have had abilities
equal to God, but Jesus often thanked God, prayed to him and asked for His
help. This proves Jesus is subordinate to God. Thus he cannot be God's
partner or equal.
11) Jesus said." The Lord our God is ONE Lord": (Matt 12:29) Jesus himself
says that God in one. He didn't say 3 or 3 in 1.
12) Jesus refused to be called good and said," None is good, save ONE that
is God." (Luke 18:19) If "good" does not apply to Jesus, as Jesus himself
asserts and it applies to God only, then Jesus cannot be equal to God and
thus cannot be a member of the Trinity because Jesus lacks a basic quality
of God. ie goodness. If he rejected to be called good, would he accept to be
called God?
13) Look at what Paul says about God, "Who is the blessed and ONLY
Potentate, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1 Timothy 6:15) He says that
God is the ONLY Potentate. ONLY means ONE. Even Paul did not say 3 in 1.
JESUS IS NOT GOD!
1) Jesus's admission. Jesus said," I cast out devils by the Spirit of God.:
(Matt 12.28). He admits his miracles are not by his own power but by the
power of God.
2) Jesus said," I am NOT sent BUT unto the lost sheep of the house of
ISRAEL." (Matt 15:24) This text shows that he is a messeger sent by God to
the people of Israel only. How can he be God and be sent to the house of
Israel only? Is God to a certain people only?
3) When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the multitude said," This is Jesus, the
prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." (Matt 21:11) This text shows that he is
prophet, not God. How can Jesus be a prophet and God at the same time?
4) Jesus said," And call no man your father upon the earth;for ONE is your
father which is in heaven." (Matt 23:9) Jesus here assets that God is one
and HE is in heaven. How can Jesus on the earth be God when God is only one
in Heaven?
5) On the cross, Jesus was reported to say," My God, why has thou forsaken
me?" (Matt 27:46) He called his God and asked for help. How can Jesus be GOD
and call GOD and ask him for his help? Was he calling himself?
6) "Jesus yielded up the ghost." (Matt 27:50) Jesus died on the cross,
according to the gospels. How can he be God and be dead at the same time?
Does God Die? Death is human, not divine.
7) Jesus said," Whoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but HIM that
sent me." (Matt 9:37). This proves that he was a prophet sent by God. How
can he be God and be sent by God?
8) Jesus said that no man or angel, not even Jesus himself knows when the
Day of Judgment will happen (Matt 13:32) How can Jesus be God and be
ignorant of the time of that DAY?
9) "Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and stature." (Luke 2:42) Does God grow in
wisdom and body and age? Growing is human, not divine.
10) Jesus "continued all night in prayer to God." (Luke 6:12) How can Jesus
be God and be praying to God? Praying is human, not divine.
11) When Jesus, by God's will, put life into a dead person," they glorified
GOD, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us." (Luke 7:16) The
audience glorified GOD and not Jesus and they referred to Jesus as a great
prophet, not as GOD.
12) Jesus said," I THANK thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth." (Luke
10:21) How can Jesus be God if he himself thanks God? Thanking God is a
human behavior.
13) "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, STRENGTHENING him."
(Luke 22:43) An angel came down to strengthen Jesus in that night before the
soldiers came to seize him. How can he be GOD and be strengthened by an
angel?
14) Jesus said," I can of mine own self do nothing." (John 5:30) He admits
that he is helpless and weak by himself and is supported by God. How can
Jesus be God and not self-dependent at the same time?
15) Jesus said," He that hears my word and believes I him that sent me has
everlasting life." (John 5:24) Jesus admits here that he was sent by God as
his messenger and thus not God.
16) Jesus said blaming the Jews who wanted to kill him," But now you seek to
kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God. (John
8:40). Jesus clearly says he is a man receiving revelation from God. How can
he be God and be receiving revelation from God?
JESUS IS NOT THE SON OF GOD!
1) According to the gospels, Jesus is the son of David (Matt. 1:1). And "the
Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David." (Luke 1:32).
How can Jesus be the son of David and the son of God at the same time? No
one can be the son of two different fathers.
2) Jesus was born (Matt. 2:2). Sonship requires agreement in major
qualitites. If God has no beginning, so should his son. Because Jesus was
born, he has a beginning. Jesus thus cannot be God's son because they differ
in a major quality.
3) Jesus said: Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the
children of God." (Matt. 5:9). All peacemakers, according to Jesus, are God'
s sons. Hence Jesus is not God's only son? If the "children" here is used
figuratively, why is "son" literal about Jesus but figurative about others?
Why not consistently figurative?
4) Jesus said, "Glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matt 5:16).
Jesus said," Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven
perfect." (Matt 5:48)
The text shows that God is the Father of all people because Jesus is here
addressing a crowd of people. Thus "Father" is not a literal father; the
word is used figuratively to mean protector or guardian. So God is not the
Father of Jesus only, but He is also the Father of all humans. This proves
that whenever Father and Son are used in relation to God they are and should
be used figuratively. Neither the Father is a literal Father nor is the son
a literal son.
5) Jesus himself asserts that he is the SON OF MAN in dozens of places in
the gospels e.g Matt. 8:27, Matt 9:6, Matt 13:8, Matt 13:40. So how can he
be the son of man and the son of God at the same time?
6) Oh, by the way Jesus himself NEVER said anywhere in the gospels that he
is the son of God. He spoke about his Father in heaven (Matt 7:21). But this
does not prove that Jesus is the son of God literally because there are
dozens of texts in the gospels saying that God is the Father of all people
and that peacemakers, for eg, are God's children.
7) Jesus often prayed to GOD (Matt 14:23) Sonship implies father -son
equality in characteristics. The son can do what his father can. Since the
Father dos not pray, neither should the son. Since Jesus pray, this
disproves his sonship to God. Prayer proves SUBORDINATION and disproves
equality.
8) Some argue for the sonship of Jesus to God on account that he had no
human father. However, this argument is not true since Adam did not have a
human father or mother; and this did not make Adam, God's son literally.
9) If God is the Father of Jesus literally, why did Matthew give a 41
generation genealogical tree for Jesus?! And why did Luke give a 76
generation genealogical tree? If Jesus was the son of God, the genealogical
tree of Jesus should be one sentence ie Jesus is the son of God.
10) Verses in the Bible mentions Jesus' father to be sometimes Abraham,
sometimes Joseph, and sometime God. Why the uncertainty? Because in fact
Jesus had no father at all. He is the son of Mary; that's all.
11) John refers to Jesus as "the ONLY begotten son of God" (John 3:18) But
this contradicts Luke, who said that Adam is the son of God (Luke 3:38)
12) Jesus himself says," That they might know thee the only true God and
Jesus Christ whom thou has sent." (John 17:3) Jesus asserts here the Oneness
of God by saying "the only true God" He makes it clear that God in ONE and
he is the messenger of God. Too bad he was misunderstood.
13) Paul frequently uses the word "son" figuratively as well. He says " For
as many are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God." (Romans
8:14). This proves that the term "God's son or sons" will be more acceptable
if taken figuratively rather than literally. The figurative explanation of
"God's son" entails no complexities whereas the literal explanation results
in a drastic destruction of the whole message of Jesus and all prophets.
14) Let us see what God says about himself in the Old Testament. He says ,"
I am God unrivalled, God who has no like." (Isaiah 46:9) the text shows that
God is one since he is unrivalled and He has no like or equal or partner.
Since God has no like, Jesus cannot be God's son because a on is a like to
his father. No like implies no son. No rival implies no other God. So this
text refutes the divinity of Jesus and his sonship to God.
"Phillip Ray Holmes" <ctn27548@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d8f9d6ea.0311272120.4023b3f8@posting.google.com...
penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:<jt03svgdp4dlthhqeu9n4rs887l87o4lgk@4ax.com>...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:52:57 GMT, "Bible Dunce Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send
in
My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance
all
things that I said to you."
http://www.truthandgrace.com/
"untaught penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:sbltrvgumobln6kt1rgm0kcqhoef29d3j5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mat 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing
them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy
Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and
lo, I
am
with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
"Amen"? Never. The baptismal formula you quote is not a
trinitarian statement at all. It's simply a liturgical method
accompanying baptism which initiates baptismal candidates by the
sponsorship of ("in the name of") the one, single God. God, Jesus's
Father. Jesus, the Son, who is not God, but rather God's messianic
agent. The Holy Spirit, which is neither Father nor Son, but their
combined activity in the world. No trinitarianim there at all.
You've managed to act like a fundamentalist, which is to say,
stupidly. The text you quote has not the Tiniest Holiest Ghost of
Trinitarianism in it. That doesn't stop your diseased fundie-fantasy
from imagining it, though.
- pl -
There is no Trinity, never has been, never will be a Holy Trinity?
Re read your Holy Bible Starting in
St. Luke Chapter 24 verses 45-49
Explain St. John 10:30 1 John 4:7 Acts 4:12 Colossians 2:9-10,13-15
James 2:19 Revelations 4:2 Deut 6:4 Isaiah 42:8 Isaiah 42:10-13,15
Isaiah 44:6,7 Isaiah 45:5-7 Isaiah 45:22-23 Isaiah 46:9
Isaiah 48:11-12 Genesis 1:27 Deut 4:39 Deut 5:7-8 Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 13:8 Revelation 22:13 1 John 2:22-23 James 4:12
James 2:19 Romans 1:20 Colossians 2:9,10 Zechariah 14:9
2 Chronicles 7:14 Jeremiah 10:10-11 Jeremiah 10:6
1 Timothy 3:16 St. John1:1-5,9-10,11-14 1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 10:4 2 Corinthians 4:6 Galatians 4:4,5
Philippians 4:5-11 Colossians 1:14-19 2 Timothy 1:6-9
Hebrews 6:18-20 Jude 1:4 Revelations 1:8
Romans 10:13 St. Matthew 11:27 St. Matthew 28:17-20 (titles) not
names
St Mark 12:29 very ONENESS Scriptures about God, aka Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God, he has always God, and will always be God
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST
IS GOD
Phillip Ray Holmes
1455 Keene Road
Enville, TN 38332
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name
under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved
Phillip Ray Holmes
1455 Keene Road
Enville, TN 38332
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| User: "Phillip Ray Holmes" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are not saved! |
28 Nov 2003 06:38:55 PM |
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"Shinco" <shicoresx@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bq7baj$6c9$1@mawar.singnet.com.sg>...
DON'T SAY TRINITY SAY UNITY!
Here are the facts, it's up to you now...
1) No prophet neither before nor after Jesus preached the Trinity. All
prophets preached to people ONE God and the Oneness of God. Jesus never
mentioned the trinity.
2) The one verse (I John 5:7) which asserts the unity of the three who bear
witness in heaven has long known to be a forgery, the work of Roman
Catholics in North Africa. This forgery was made public by Sir Isaac Newton,
who found that some of the oldest manuscripts have not been altered.
3) The Pentateuch, which Christians believe in, never mentions the Trinity.
How did he become 3 in 1 later? The God of Moses is the same God of Jesus.
Why and how was the God of Moses one and the God of Jesus three in one?
4) The Old Testament NEVER mentions the Trinity. God all through the Old
Testament is one. How did He suddenly become three in one? God who sent
Moses is the same God who sent Jesus. God does not change in nature or
number.
5) Jesus was born. So he is a creature of God. How can a creature unite with
the Creator to form the Trinity?
6) Jesus was BORN (Matt 1:1). So he doesn't exist before his birth. How
could the Trinity exist before Jesus' birth?
7) The Holy Spirit was created by God. Therefore before his creation, the
Trinity would be impossible. How could the Trinity exist before the creation
of Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
8) Jesus said," but of the DAY and HOUR kows no man, no, not the angels of
heaven, but my Father ony."(Matt 24:36) If Jesus and the Holy Spirit, are
INFERIOR to the Father in knowledge, then The Father only is GOD and neither
Jesus nor the Holy Spirit are equal to the Father. If so, they are not
qualified to unite with Him in the so called Trinity. This means Jesus is
Jesus, Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit and God is God. Not one in three, nor
three in one.
9) If Jesus came from hi Father, then he is subordinate to HIM. So Jesus
cannot be equal to God and thus cannot be an equal god.
10) Had Jesus been a member of the Trinity, he would have had abilities
equal to God, but Jesus often thanked God, prayed to him and asked for His
help. This proves Jesus is subordinate to God. Thus he cannot be God's
partner or equal.
11) Jesus said." The Lord our God is ONE Lord": (Matt 12:29) Jesus himself
says that God in one. He didn't say 3 or 3 in 1.
12) Jesus refused to be called good and said," None is good, save ONE that
is God." (Luke 18:19) If "good" does not apply to Jesus, as Jesus himself
asserts and it applies to God only, then Jesus cannot be equal to God and
thus cannot be a member of the Trinity because Jesus lacks a basic quality
of God. ie goodness. If he rejected to be called good, would he accept to be
called God?
13) Look at what Paul says about God, "Who is the blessed and ONLY
Potentate, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1 Timothy 6:15) He says that
God is the ONLY Potentate. ONLY means ONE. Even Paul did not say 3 in 1.
JESUS IS NOT GOD!
1) Jesus's admission. Jesus said," I cast out devils by the Spirit of God.:
(Matt 12.28). He admits his miracles are not by his own power but by the
power of God.
2) Jesus said," I am NOT sent BUT unto the lost sheep of the house of
ISRAEL." (Matt 15:24) This text shows that he is a messeger sent by God to
the people of Israel only. How can he be God and be sent to the house of
Israel only? Is God to a certain people only?
3) When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the multitude said," This is Jesus, the
prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." (Matt 21:11) This text shows that he is
prophet, not God. How can Jesus be a prophet and God at the same time?
4) Jesus said," And call no man your father upon the earth;for ONE is your
father which is in heaven." (Matt 23:9) Jesus here assets that God is one
and HE is in heaven. How can Jesus on the earth be God when God is only one
in Heaven?
5) On the cross, Jesus was reported to say," My God, why has thou forsaken
me?" (Matt 27:46) He called his God and asked for help. How can Jesus be GOD
and call GOD and ask him for his help? Was he calling himself?
6) "Jesus yielded up the ghost." (Matt 27:50) Jesus died on the cross,
according to the gospels. How can he be God and be dead at the same time?
Does God Die? Death is human, not divine.
7) Jesus said," Whoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but HIM that
sent me." (Matt 9:37). This proves that he was a prophet sent by God. How
can he be God and be sent by God?
8) Jesus said that no man or angel, not even Jesus himself knows when the
Day of Judgment will happen (Matt 13:32) How can Jesus be God and be
ignorant of the time of that DAY?
9) "Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and stature." (Luke 2:42) Does God grow in
wisdom and body and age? Growing is human, not divine.
10) Jesus "continued all night in prayer to God." (Luke 6:12) How can Jesus
be God and be praying to God? Praying is human, not divine.
11) When Jesus, by God's will, put life into a dead person," they glorified
GOD, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us." (Luke 7:16) The
audience glorified GOD and not Jesus and they referred to Jesus as a great
prophet, not as GOD.
12) Jesus said," I THANK thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth." (Luke
10:21) How can Jesus be God if he himself thanks God? Thanking God is a
human behavior.
13) "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, STRENGTHENING him."
(Luke 22:43) An angel came down to strengthen Jesus in that night before the
soldiers came to seize him. How can he be GOD and be strengthened by an
angel?
14) Jesus said," I can of mine own self do nothing." (John 5:30) He admits
that he is helpless and weak by himself and is supported by God. How can
Jesus be God and not self-dependent at the same time?
15) Jesus said," He that hears my word and believes I him that sent me has
everlasting life." (John 5:24) Jesus admits here that he was sent by God as
his messenger and thus not God.
16) Jesus said blaming the Jews who wanted to kill him," But now you seek to
kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God. (John
8:40). Jesus clearly says he is a man receiving revelation from God. How can
he be God and be receiving revelation from God?
JESUS IS NOT THE SON OF GOD!
1) According to the gospels, Jesus is the son of David (Matt. 1:1). And "the
Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David." (Luke 1:32).
How can Jesus be the son of David and the son of God at the same time? No
one can be the son of two different fathers.
2) Jesus was born (Matt. 2:2). Sonship requires agreement in major
qualitites. If God has no beginning, so should his son. Because Jesus was
born, he has a beginning. Jesus thus cannot be God's son because they differ
in a major quality.
3) Jesus said: Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the
children of God." (Matt. 5:9). All peacemakers, according to Jesus, are God'
s sons. Hence Jesus is not God's only son? If the "children" here is used
figuratively, why is "son" literal about Jesus but figurative about others?
Why not consistently figurative?
4) Jesus said, "Glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matt 5:16).
Jesus said," Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven
perfect." (Matt 5:48)
The text shows that God is the Father of all people because Jesus is here
addressing a crowd of people. Thus "Father" is not a literal father; the
word is used figuratively to mean protector or guardian. So God is not the
Father of Jesus only, but He is also the Father of all humans. This proves
that whenever Father and Son are used in relation to God they are and should
be used figuratively. Neither the Father is a literal Father nor is the son
a literal son.
5) Jesus himself asserts that he is the SON OF MAN in dozens of places in
the gospels e.g Matt. 8:27, Matt 9:6, Matt 13:8, Matt 13:40. So how can he
be the son of man and the son of God at the same time?
6) Oh, by the way Jesus himself NEVER said anywhere in the gospels that he
is the son of God. He spoke about his Father in heaven (Matt 7:21). But this
does not prove that Jesus is the son of God literally because there are
dozens of texts in the gospels saying that God is the Father of all people
and that peacemakers, for eg, are God's children.
7) Jesus often prayed to GOD (Matt 14:23) Sonship implies father -son
equality in characteristics. The son can do what his father can. Since the
Father dos not pray, neither should the son. Since Jesus pray, this
disproves his sonship to God. Prayer proves SUBORDINATION and disproves
equality.
8) Some argue for the sonship of Jesus to God on account that he had no
human father. However, this argument is not true since Adam did not have a
human father or mother; and this did not make Adam, God's son literally.
9) If God is the Father of Jesus literally, why did Matthew give a 41
generation genealogical tree for Jesus?! And why did Luke give a 76
generation genealogical tree? If Jesus was the son of God, the genealogical
tree of Jesus should be one sentence ie Jesus is the son of God.
10) Verses in the Bible mentions Jesus' father to be sometimes Abraham,
sometimes Joseph, and sometime God. Why the uncertainty? Because in fact
Jesus had no father at all. He is the son of Mary; that's all.
11) John refers to Jesus as "the ONLY begotten son of God" (John 3:18) But
this contradicts Luke, who said that Adam is the son of God (Luke 3:38)
12) Jesus himself says," That they might know thee the only true God and
Jesus Christ whom thou has sent." (John 17:3) Jesus asserts here the Oneness
of God by saying "the only true God" He makes it clear that God in ONE and
he is the messenger of God. Too bad he was misunderstood.
13) Paul frequently uses the word "son" figuratively as well. He says " For
as many are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God." (Romans
8:14). This proves that the term "God's son or sons" will be more acceptable
if taken figuratively rather than literally. The figurative explanation of
"God's son" entails no complexities whereas the literal explanation results
in a drastic destruction of the whole message of Jesus and all prophets.
14) Let us see what God says about himself in the Old Testament. He says ,"
I am God unrivalled, God who has no like." (Isaiah 46:9) the text shows that
God is one since he is unrivalled and He has no like or equal or partner.
Since God has no like, Jesus cannot be God's son because a on is a like to
his father. No like implies no son. No rival implies no other God. So this
text refutes the divinity of Jesus and his sonship to God.
"Phillip Ray Holmes" <ctn27548@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d8f9d6ea.0311272120.4023b3f8@posting.google.com...
penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:<jt03svgdp4dlthhqeu9n4rs887l87o4lgk@4ax.com>...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:52:57 GMT, "Bible Dunce Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send
in
My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance
all
things that I said to you."
http://www.truthandgrace.com/
"untaught penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:sbltrvgumobln6kt1rgm0kcqhoef29d3j5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mat 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing
them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy
Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and
lo, I
am
with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
"Amen"? Never. The baptismal formula you quote is not a
trinitarian statement at all. It's simply a liturgical method
accompanying baptism which initiates baptismal candidates by the
sponsorship of ("in the name of") the one, single God. God, Jesus's
Father. Jesus, the Son, who is not God, but rather God's messianic
agent. The Holy Spirit, which is neither Father nor Son, but their
combined activity in the world. No trinitarianim there at all.
You've managed to act like a fundamentalist, which is to say,
stupidly. The text you quote has not the Tiniest Holiest Ghost of
Trinitarianism in it. That doesn't stop your diseased fundie-fantasy
from imagining it, though.
- pl -
There is no Trinity, never has been, never will be a Holy Trinity?
Re read your Holy Bible Starting in
St. Luke Chapter 24 verses 45-49
Explain St. John 10:30 1 John 4:7 Acts 4:12 Colossians 2:9-10,13-15
James 2:19 Revelations 4:2 Deut 6:4 Isaiah 42:8 Isaiah 42:10-13,15
Isaiah 44:6,7 Isaiah 45:5-7 Isaiah 45:22-23 Isaiah 46:9
Isaiah 48:11-12 Genesis 1:27 Deut 4:39 Deut 5:7-8 Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 13:8 Revelation 22:13 1 John 2:22-23 James 4:12
James 2:19 Romans 1:20 Colossians 2:9,10 Zechariah 14:9
2 Chronicles 7:14 Jeremiah 10:10-11 Jeremiah 10:6
1 Timothy 3:16 St. John1:1-5,9-10,11-14 1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 10:4 2 Corinthians 4:6 Galatians 4:4,5
Philippians 4:5-11 Colossians 1:14-19 2 Timothy 1:6-9
Hebrews 6:18-20 Jude 1:4 Revelations 1:8
Romans 10:13 St. Matthew 11:27 St. Matthew 28:17-20 (titles) not
names
St Mark 12:29 very ONENESS Scriptures about God, aka Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God, he has always God, and will always be God
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST
IS GOD
Phillip Ray Holmes
1455 Keene Road
Enville, TN 38332
Duh people there is only ONE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST IS HIS NAME. Which
is truth! Whether you will choose to believe his own words or not. But
that is your decision to believe God's Holy word or to deny the truth
that Jesus Christ Is GOD, The only God, Deut 6:4 If you don't think he
pre-existed read Genesis Chapter 1, St. John Chapter 1 he preexisted
as the WORD. Do I need to quote it for you? Duh ROMANS 1:20 1 Timothy
3:16 Colossians 2:9-10 Isaiah 42:8
St. John 14:18,20
Jesus said I am now with you. But when I send the Holy Ghost I will Be
IN you!
Jesus Christ said "I am the way the truth and the light". Not we ARE
THE LIGHT, THE WAY, AND THE TRUTH! But I am.........
NOTICE THE LACK OF Plurality OF THE VERSE. I, IN THE FIRST PERSON
SINGULAR
As my friend Jeff Arnold once said if a company gets in trouble they
will send a represenative from the company, but when it gets bad
enough the owner of the company will come to solve the problem! That
is exactly what God himself did,
he came himself, wrapped himself in flesh, and died to redeem us to
himself. He did it, although he didn't have to go to that drastic
measure. He could have just did away with us, and destroy us, as he
destroy most humanity in the day of Noah. No one else could do that
but God himself.
Phillip Ray Holmes
1455 Keene Road
Enville,TN 38332
ctn27548@yahoo.com
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are not saved! |
28 Nov 2003 08:07:46 PM |
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On 28 Nov 2003 16:38:55 -0800, (Phillip Ray Holmes)
wrote:
SNIP
Duh people there is only ONE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST IS HIS NAME. Which
is truth!
Which is a lie! Jesus merely "bears" the divine name - and this is
because he has taken the place of the Hebrew Bible's Name-Bearing
Angel. Jesus now stands in the Chief Angel's place "at God's right
hand". Jesus, like the angel, bears or carries the Name. He is not
the OWNER of the Name. This is why in Revelation, Jesus has the name
of his King and God inscribed on his thigh. He bears the Name, but is
not its owner.
Whether you will choose to believe his own words or not.
We non-trinitarians DO choose to believe his own words, unlike you
Oneness Pentecostals, Trinitarians, and others who choose not to
believe his own words.
But
that is your decision to believe God's Holy word or to deny the truth
that Jesus Christ Is GOD,
We deny the lie that Jesus Christ is God, and by so doing we affirm
the truth!
The only God, Deut 6:4 If you don't think he
pre-existed read Genesis Chapter 1,
Jesus is not mentioned in Genesis as Jesus. If you're thinking of
the texts where God talks about "we", then you're talking about God's
multiple aspect as Elohim. God is using the "royal we" and/or talking
to "the heavenly court" of his angelic-aspects. Jesus does not appear
here, nor does the trinity.
However, a case has been made that Jesus does appear in Genesis as
the Serpent, who reminds A&E of their true divine nature, much to
"god's" consternation. Jesus the Serpent came back again in the
Gospel story to remind us of our divinity - again, much to "god's"
head-crushing consternation. But this second time, Jesus won.
St. John Chapter 1 he preexisted
as the WORD.
No, the Word was the Word. The Word was not Jesus Christ and Jesus
Christ was not the Word. Jesus Christ was not in the beginning with
God.
Do I need to quote it for you? Duh
Duh is right. The most intelligent syllable you've ever grunted.
ROMANS 1:20 1 Timothy
3:16 Colossians 2:9-10 Isaiah 42:8
St. John 14:18,20
Jesus said I am now with you. But when I send the Holy Ghost I will Be
IN you!
That's because the risen Jesus is a spirit (Paul: "The Lord is a
spirit"). If Jesus' spirit is "in" someone, then Jesus is "in"
someone. Doesn't mean "Jesus is God." God can't send God. God sent
Jesus, therefore Jesus isn't God. Jesus sent the spirit. Therefore
the spirit isn't God. God doesn't and cannot send himself.
Jesus Christ said "I am the way the truth and the light". Not we ARE
THE LIGHT, THE WAY, AND THE TRUTH! But I am.........
Jesus never said he was God.
NOTICE THE LACK OF Plurality OF THE VERSE. I, IN THE FIRST PERSON
SINGULAR
The "I" isn't Jesus speaking. It's the Word speaking _through_
Jesus. This means only that Jesus is the prophet of the Word which
incarnates in Jesus - not that Jesus is God, or that the Word is God.
As my friend Jeff Arnold once said if a company gets in trouble they
will send a represenative from the company, but when it gets bad
enough the owner of the company will come to solve the problem! That
is exactly what God himself did,
In your fantasies. The NT says quite differently. The Father
Creator never shows up. Only the Son, who is the Father's messianic
agent, not "God".
he came himself, wrapped himself in flesh, and died to redeem us to
himself. He did it, although he didn't have to go to that drastic
measure.
Nah, never happened. The Word, not God, became flesh. The Word is
not God, because the Word is merely "theos" (god), not "HO Theos" (THE
GOD). But that's irrelevant in any case, since the Word is not Jesus
Christ, and Jesus Christ is not the Word.
He could have just did away with us, and destroy us, as he
destroy most humanity in the day of Noah.
Sure. That's exactly the kind of god who isn't worth spit. But it
gives you pleasure to conceive of such.
No one else could do that
but God himself.
Nah. Jesus did it just fine, and according to the NT, Jesus is not
God.
- pl -
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| User: "Phillip Ray Holmes" |
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| Title: Re: Trinitarians really are not saved! |
28 Nov 2003 08:36:53 PM |
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"Shinco" <shicoresx@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bq7baj$6c9$1@mawar.singnet.com.sg>...
DON'T SAY TRINITY SAY UNITY!
Here are the facts, it's up to you now...
1) No prophet neither before nor after Jesus preached the Trinity. All
prophets preached to people ONE God and the Oneness of God. Jesus never
mentioned the trinity.
2) The one verse (I John 5:7) which asserts the unity of the three who bear
witness in heaven has long known to be a forgery, the work of Roman
Catholics in North Africa. This forgery was made public by Sir Isaac Newton,
who found that some of the oldest manuscripts have not been altered.
3) The Pentateuch, which Christians believe in, never mentions the Trinity.
How did he become 3 in 1 later? The God of Moses is the same God of Jesus.
Why and how was the God of Moses one and the God of Jesus three in one?
4) The Old Testament NEVER mentions the Trinity. God all through the Old
Testament is one. How did He suddenly become three in one? God who sent
Moses is the same God who sent Jesus. God does not change in nature or
number.
5) Jesus was born. So he is a creature of God. How can a creature unite with
the Creator to form the Trinity?
6) Jesus was BORN (Matt 1:1). So he doesn't exist before his birth. How
could the Trinity exist before Jesus' birth?
7) The Holy Spirit was created by God. Therefore before his creation, the
Trinity would be impossible. How could the Trinity exist before the creation
of Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
8) Jesus said," but of the DAY and HOUR kows no man, no, not the angels of
heaven, but my Father ony."(Matt 24:36) If Jesus and the Holy Spirit, are
INFERIOR to the Father in knowledge, then The Father only is GOD and neither
Jesus nor the Holy Spirit are equal to the Father. If so, they are not
qualified to unite with Him in the so called Trinity. This means Jesus is
Jesus, Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit and God is God. Not one in three, nor
three in one.
9) If Jesus came from hi Father, then he is subordinate to HIM. So Jesus
cannot be equal to God and thus cannot be an equal god.
10) Had Jesus been a member of the Trinity, he would have had abilities
equal to God, but Jesus often thanked God, prayed to him and asked for His
help. This proves Jesus is subordinate to God. Thus he cannot be God's
partner or equal.
11) Jesus said." The Lord our God is ONE Lord": (Matt 12:29) Jesus himself
says that God in one. He didn't say 3 or 3 in 1.
12) Jesus refused to be called good and said," None is good, save ONE that
is God." (Luke 18:19) If "good" does not apply to Jesus, as Jesus himself
asserts and it applies to God only, then Jesus cannot be equal to God and
thus cannot be a member of the Trinity because Jesus lacks a basic quality
of God. ie goodness. If he rejected to be called good, would he accept to be
called God?
13) Look at what Paul says about God, "Who is the blessed and ONLY
Potentate, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (1 Timothy 6:15) He says that
God is the ONLY Potentate. ONLY means ONE. Even Paul did not say 3 in 1.
JESUS IS NOT GOD!
1) Jesus's admission. Jesus said," I cast out devils by the Spirit of God.:
(Matt 12.28). He admits his miracles are not by his own power but by the
power of God.
2) Jesus said," I am NOT sent BUT unto the lost sheep of the house of
ISRAEL." (Matt 15:24) This text shows that he is a messeger sent by God to
the people of Israel only. How can he be God and be sent to the house of
Israel only? Is God to a certain people only?
3) When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the multitude said," This is Jesus, the
prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." (Matt 21:11) This text shows that he is
prophet, not God. How can Jesus be a prophet and God at the same time?
4) Jesus said," And call no man your father upon the earth;for ONE is your
father which is in heaven." (Matt 23:9) Jesus here assets that God is one
and HE is in heaven. How can Jesus on the earth be God when God is only one
in Heaven?
5) On the cross, Jesus was reported to say," My God, why has thou forsaken
me?" (Matt 27:46) He called his God and asked for help. How can Jesus be GOD
and call GOD and ask him for his help? Was he calling himself?
6) "Jesus yielded up the ghost." (Matt 27:50) Jesus died on the cross,
according to the gospels. How can he be God and be dead at the same time?
Does God Die? Death is human, not divine.
7) Jesus said," Whoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but HIM that
sent me." (Matt 9:37). This proves that he was a prophet sent by God. How
can he be God and be sent by God?
8) Jesus said that no man or angel, not even Jesus himself knows when the
Day of Judgment will happen (Matt 13:32) How can Jesus be God and be
ignorant of the time of that DAY?
9) "Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and stature." (Luke 2:42) Does God grow in
wisdom and body and age? Growing is human, not divine.
10) Jesus "continued all night in prayer to God." (Luke 6:12) How can Jesus
be God and be praying to God? Praying is human, not divine.
11) When Jesus, by God's will, put life into a dead person," they glorified
GOD, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us." (Luke 7:16) The
audience glorified GOD and not Jesus and they referred to Jesus as a great
prophet, not as GOD.
12) Jesus said," I THANK thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth." (Luke
10:21) How can Jesus be God if he himself thanks God? Thanking God is a
human behavior.
13) "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, STRENGTHENING him."
(Luke 22:43) An angel came down to strengthen Jesus in that night before the
soldiers came to seize him. How can he be GOD and be strengthened by an
angel?
14) Jesus said," I can of mine own self do nothing." (John 5:30) He admits
that he is helpless and weak by himself and is supported by God. How can
Jesus be God and not self-dependent at the same time?
15) Jesus said," He that hears my word and believes I him that sent me has
everlasting life." (John 5:24) Jesus admits here that he was sent by God as
his messenger and thus not God.
16) Jesus said blaming the Jews who wanted to kill him," But now you seek to
kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God. (John
8:40). Jesus clearly says he is a man receiving revelation from God. How can
he be God and be receiving revelation from God?
JESUS IS NOT THE SON OF GOD!
1) According to the gospels, Jesus is the son of David (Matt. 1:1). And "the
Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David." (Luke 1:32).
How can Jesus be the son of David and the son of God at the same time? No
one can be the son of two different fathers.
2) Jesus was born (Matt. 2:2). Sonship requires agreement in major
qualitites. If God has no beginning, so should his son. Because Jesus was
born, he has a beginning. Jesus thus cannot be God's son because they differ
in a major quality.
3) Jesus said: Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the
children of God." (Matt. 5:9). All peacemakers, according to Jesus, are God'
s sons. Hence Jesus is not God's only son? If the "children" here is used
figuratively, why is "son" literal about Jesus but figurative about others?
Why not consistently figurative?
4) Jesus said, "Glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matt 5:16).
Jesus said," Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven
perfect." (Matt 5:48)
The text shows that God is the Father of all people because Jesus is here
addressing a crowd of people. Thus "Father" is not a literal father; the
word is used figuratively to mean protector or guardian. So God is not the
Father of Jesus only, but He is also the Father of all humans. This proves
that whenever Father and Son are used in relation to God they are and should
be used figuratively. Neither the Father is a literal Father nor is the son
a literal son.
5) Jesus himself asserts that he is the SON OF MAN in dozens of places in
the gospels e.g Matt. 8:27, Matt 9:6, Matt 13:8, Matt 13:40. So how can he
be the son of man and the son of God at the same time?
6) Oh, by the way Jesus himself NEVER said anywhere in the gospels that he
is the son of God. He spoke about his Father in heaven (Matt 7:21). But this
does not prove that Jesus is the son of God literally because there are
dozens of texts in the gospels saying that God is the Father of all people
and that peacemakers, for eg, are God's children.
7) Jesus often prayed to GOD (Matt 14:23) Sonship implies father -son
equality in characteristics. The son can do what his father can. Since the
Father dos not pray, neither should the son. Since Jesus pray, this
disproves his sonship to God. Prayer proves SUBORDINATION and disproves
equality.
8) Some argue for the sonship of Jesus to God on account that he had no
human father. However, this argument is not true since Adam did not have a
human father or mother; and this did not make Adam, God's son literally.
9) If God is the Father of Jesus literally, why did Matthew give a 41
generation genealogical tree for Jesus?! And why did Luke give a 76
generation genealogical tree? If Jesus was the son of God, the genealogical
tree of Jesus should be one sentence ie Jesus is the son of God.
10) Verses in the Bible mentions Jesus' father to be sometimes Abraham,
sometimes Joseph, and sometime God. Why the uncertainty? Because in fact
Jesus had no father at all. He is the son of Mary; that's all.
11) John refers to Jesus as "the ONLY begotten son of God" (John 3:18) But
this contradicts Luke, who said that Adam is the son of God (Luke 3:38)
12) Jesus himself says," That they might know thee the only true God and
Jesus Christ whom thou has sent." (John 17:3) Jesus asserts here the Oneness
of God by saying "the only true God" He makes it clear that God in ONE and
he is the messenger of God. Too bad he was misunderstood.
13) Paul frequently uses the word "son" figuratively as well. He says " For
as many are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God." (Romans
8:14). This proves that the term "God's son or sons" will be more acceptable
if taken figuratively rather than literally. The figurative explanation of
"God's son" entails no complexities whereas the literal explanation results
in a drastic destruction of the whole message of Jesus and all prophets.
14) Let us see what God says about himself in the Old Testament. He says ,"
I am God unrivalled, God who has no like." (Isaiah 46:9) the text shows that
God is one since he is unrivalled and He has no like or equal or partner.
Since God has no like, Jesus cannot be God's son because a on is a like to
his father. No like implies no son. No rival implies no other God. So this
text refutes the divinity of Jesus and his sonship to God.
"Phillip Ray Holmes" <ctn27548@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d8f9d6ea.0311272120.4023b3f8@posting.google.com...
penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:<jt03svgdp4dlthhqeu9n4rs887l87o4lgk@4ax.com>...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:52:57 GMT, "Bible Dunce Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send
in
My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance
all
things that I said to you."
http://www.truthandgrace.com/
"untaught penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
news:sbltrvgumobln6kt1rgm0kcqhoef29d3j5@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:15:49 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
<lsferm@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mat 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing
them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy
Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and
lo, I
am
with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
"Amen"? Never. The baptismal formula you quote is not a
trinitarian statement at all. It's simply a liturgical method
accompanying baptism which initiates baptismal candidates by the
sponsorship of ("in the name of") the one, single God. God, Jesus's
Father. Jesus, the Son, who is not God, but rather God's messianic
agent. The Holy Spirit, which is neither Father nor Son, but their
combined activity in the world. No trinitarianim there at all.
You've managed to act like a fundamentalist, which is to say,
stupidly. The text you quote has not the Tiniest Holiest Ghost of
Trinitarianism in it. That doesn't stop your diseased fundie-fantasy
from imagining it, though.
- pl -
There is no Trinity, never has been, never will be a Holy Trinity?
Re read your Holy Bible Starting in
St. Luke Chapter 24 verses 45-49
Explain St. John 10:30 1 John 4:7 Acts 4:12 Colossians 2:9-10,13-15
James 2:19 Revelations 4:2 Deut 6:4 Isaiah 42:8 Isaiah 42:10-13,15
Isaiah 44:6,7 Isaiah 45:5-7 Isaiah 45:22-23 Isaiah 46:9
Isaiah 48:11-12 Genesis 1:27 Deut 4:39 Deut 5:7-8 Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 13:8 Revelation 22:13 1 John 2:22-23 James 4:12
James 2:19 Romans 1:20 Colossians 2:9,10 Zechariah 14:9
2 Chronicles 7:14 Jeremiah 10:10-11 Jeremiah 10:6
1 Timothy 3:16 St. John1:1-5,9-10,11-14 1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 10:4 2 Corinthians 4:6 Galatians 4:4,5
Philippians 4:5-11 Colossians 1:14-19 2 Timothy 1:6-9
Hebrews 6:18-20 Jude 1:4 Revelations 1:8
Romans 10:13 St. Matthew 11:27 St. Matthew 28:17-20 (titles) not
names
St Mark 12:29 very ONENESS Scriptures about God, aka Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God, he has always God, and will always be God
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST IS GOD JESUS CHRIST
IS GOD
Phillip Ray Holmes
1455 Keene Road
Enville, TN 38332
So now you deny Jesus Christ, | | | | | | | |
