Saint Zombie wrote in message ...

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:34:28 GMT,

On 22 Mar 2005 23:30:49 -0800, "Shaqad" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote:

Actually the Trinity is not found in Scripture.
did G-D forget?, or was it an Idea that g-D did not
originate? how come it wasn't untill the 15th century
it became a Xtian doctorine?

You are incorrect. This verse is from the Old Testament and it tells of the
trinity. That was written long before the first century.

ISA.48:16: "from the beginning from the time that it was, I was there: ( 1st
person) and now the Lord GOD (2nd person) and his Spirit, (3rd person) hath
sent me(1st person)." here we have three individuals existing together, the
one speaking states that he was there from before time (Jn. 1:1 ) he refers
to the Lord and states that both Yahweh and his Spirit have sent me, (the
speaker.)

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in
secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now
the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

TRINITY OLD TESTAMENT
When God is referred to in the singular such as I, it is showing the being
of God as the only God. When it is in the plural he is revealing something
personal of his nature. What cults do is concentrate only on the single
passages that describe God as I, me, myself and ignore all the plural
passages such as us, we, our. They also ignore how they are used. Because of
their preconceived notions that God has to be numerically one they have
tunnel vision. If we look carefully we find God is usually revealing his
persons when speaking of himself in the plural context. Trinitarians realize
that God is described in both ways and take the whole of the Bible instead
of a cut and paste theology that makes the scriptures conform to our own
interpretation. God is clearly presented as a united one not only through
the language but through the descriptions themselves. "In the light of the
facts of the New Testament we cannot refrain from asking whether there may
not have been some adumbrations of it in the Old Testament. As the doctrine
arises directly out of the facts of the New Testament, we do not look for
any full discovery of it in the Old Testament. We must not expect too much,
because, as Israel's function was to emphasize the unity of God (Deut.6:4),
any premature revelation might have been. But if the doctrine be true, we
might expect that Christian Jews, at any rate, would seek for some
anticipation of it in the Old Testament. We believe we find it there. (a)
The use of the plural "Elohim,," with the singular verb, "bara," is at least
noteworthy, and seems to call for some recognition, especially as the same
grammatical solecism is found used by St. Paul (1 Thess.3:11). Then, too,
the use of the plurals "our" (Gen. 1. 26), "us" (3:22), "us" (11:7), seems
to indicate some self-converse in God. It is not satisfactory to refer this
to angels because they were not associated with God in creation. Whatever
may be the meaning of this usage, it seems, at any rate, to imply that
Hebrew Monotheism was an intensely living reality". ( Dr. W. H. Griffith
Thomas Principles of Theology The Doctrine Anticipated" pp. 25, 26), God has
unfolded his revelation throughout history and many times we had to wait to
understand it. This is especially true for prophecy. When we take all the
information the Bible has on a certain subject such as the nature of God we
can understand what was said in the past. What was given in Genesis, needed
to have future revelation to explain its meaning. In the same way, there are
only two scriptures relating to a virgin conceiving Gen.3:15, Isa 7:14 and
needed the future revelation to understand their meaning. The example of
this is Gen. 1:26: " And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness" Let us make man in our image-Naase=let us make, adam bitzalmanu-
adam bitzalmanu- nu=our, tselem= image in our likeness- keedmutenu-
keedmutenu- nu=our, demuth=likeness. (dashes found in Hebrew mean 2 words in
a relationship to one another) the words our and us are interconnected with
other words and cannot be separated. Anti Trinitarians like Jehovah
Witnesses and others entertain the only reasonable explanation from human
wisdom. Trying to avoid the issue saying God talked with the angels, The
Bible once again refute this logic in Isa.40:12-15 when speaking of God
creating the world it asked, "With whom did he take counsel." Can anyone
find this statement of his conferring with angels in the Bible. I'm sure
when they do it will be right next to God is strictly one person. The
speaker of Gen.1:26 is God, the other he is speaking to is of the same
nature and essence because he includes him in being equal, as the source of
creating. The words image and likeness are attached to the plural pronoun
our and us. So the speaker and the ones addressed are of the same image.
While the J.W. and other anti Trinitarians will say he speaking to the
angels the very next verse settles the matter. Vs.27 verifies all this by
saying "so God created man in his own image ; in the image of God he created
him." There were no angels involved in making man in his image. Isa.45:11:
"Thus says the holy One of Israel and his maker "I have made the earth, and
created man on it. I-- My hands-- stretched out the heavens, and all their
host I have commanded." Gen. 3:22:" And the LORD God said, Behold, the man
is become as one of us," us is indicative of number; the word one is also
the word echad meaning to unite. Gen.11:7: ..." let us go down, and there
confound their language,"' the us is found in this text and is the same word
for us in vs.4 when the people said "come let us build ourselves a city". If
one is going to say us can't be plural, then they will have to be consistent
and change this to, come let myself build a city. Gen.19:24: "Then Yahweh
rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah fire and brimstone from Yahweh out of heaven
Yahweh who was on earth talking to Abraham in form rained it from another
who is Yahweh in heaven. ISA.48:16: "from the beginning from the time that
it was, I was there: ( 1st person) and now the Lord GOD (2nd person) and his
Spirit, (3rd person) hath sent me(1st person)." here we have three
individuals existing together, the one speaking states that he was there
from before time (Jn. 1:1 ) he refers to the Lord and states that both
Yahweh and his Spirit have sent me, (the speaker.) This goes perfectly in
line with Isa. 6:8 God speaking to Isaiah "Who shall I send, who will go for
us". Both the singular and the plural are used in the same verse. Zech.2:
8-11: Here we have an account of someone being sent from the Lord yet as the
description goes on in the passages we find this person to be God himself.
In vs.10 " sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and
I will dwell in your midst says the Lord. In vs11 ..." And I will dwell in
your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you"
Here are two persons mentioned the Lord said he is coming he then says the
Lord of hosts is sending him, who is identified as Yahweh. It is this one
who will dwell with man. Isa.41:21-26: God asks the people to present their
case in vs.22 he uses the plural us, and we for himself . In vs.23 we vs.26
we . Since this is God speaking the conclusion is that he refers to himself
in the plural. Isa.45:11:" Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and
his Maker, I have made the earth and created man on it, I my hands stretched
out the heavens." two persons Yahweh and his maker who is God also. Singular
as God, plural in persons (Isa. 45:18, ) How does this mesh with Isaiah
44:24 ? It states that the Lord made all things who stretched out the
heavens all alone, who spreads out the earth by myself." There is no
conflict, because the Father, Son and the Spirit are all God. As the one God
alone, he made everything! In the N.T. we find this maker is Christ the Son
(Col.1:16, Jn.1:3,Heb.1:2) God the Father is the source, Christ is the means
and the Spirit is the power that created all things. Since all three are
involved in creating they are the one God. Genesis 1:1 says that in the
beginning God (Elohim) created. The word Elohim is a compound unity. It
describes more than one person as a unified one as in this description of
God. If all three are attributed to this event then they are Elohim.
Zech.13:7: " Awake, O sword against my shepherd, and against the man that is
my fellow, says the Lord of hosts." the Hebrew word for fellow means equal,
so it reads against the man who is my equal (deity). Jer.23:5-6: " Behold
the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a branch of
righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and
righteousness in the earth. in his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will
dwell safely; now this is his name by which he will be called THE LORD OUR
RIGHTEOUSNESS." Here is described a descendant of David a man who will reign
on David's throne and is called the Lord, yet there is another who is Lord
who raised him up. This is echoed by Isaiah 9:6 about the Son who is given,
"of the increase of his government and peace, there will be no end, upon the
throne of David and over his kingdom. To order it and establish it with
judgment and justice from that time forward even forever." What other man
could deserve the title "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS? Except the sinless
God/man. The mighty God of Isa.9:6. The ancient rabbis also believed that
this verse was a reference the Messiah? This verse is applied to the Messiah
in a number of rabbinical writings. Regarding Jeremiah 23:6, the ancient' of
the Prophets states: 'And I will raise up for David the Messiah the Just.
Rabbi Kimchi (I160-1235 C.E.), a highly respected Rabbi in his time, wrote
of this prophecy: 'By the Righteous branch is meant Messiah ". In the
Midrash on Psalm 23, it is interesting to note the Messiah is given a divine
designation. He is called, "Jehovah is a man of war' and "Jehovah our
righteousness., Also in the Midrash on Lamentations 1: 16, the name Jehovah
is expressly attributed to the Messiah. If the ancient rabbis are correct,
then the obvious and startling conclusion is that the Messiah (the righteous
shoot) will be born into the world as a literal physical human being.
Isa.11:1-5 "There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a
Branch shall grow out of his roots." Here we have the Branch mentioned which
indicates the lineage of Jesus coming from King David's Father Jesse.
(Lk.22:42) We also see him having the fullness of the Spirit even beyond
what Solomon had. The Spirit is mentioned 7 times a number indicating
completeness or fullness. "The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, the
Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the
Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. His delight is in the fear
of the LORD, ." Zech.3:8-9 'Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, you and your
companions who sit before you, for they are a wondrous sign; for behold, I
am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH. For behold, the stone that I have
laid before Joshua: upon the stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave
its inscription,' says the LORD of hosts, 'And I will remove the iniquity of
that land in one day". This identifies him as the branch. He is Gods
servant, Jesus said he did not come to be served but to serve. He also says
he will remove the sin in one day, which is exactly what happened when Jesus
died. Continuing in his revelation he is told by the Lord in Zech.4:7 that
he will bring forth the capstone with shouts of grace, grace to it. The day
iniquity was removed was because of grace, the New Covenant. Zech.12:10:"and
they will look upon me (the word "me" is given two letters the Aleph and the
Tov in Hebrew which is equal to the alpha and omega in the Greek) whom they
have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for his only Son."
There is the 1st person speaking who is God, he addresses the subject
pierced as himself and then addresses himself in the 3rd person as the Son.
This is a clear indication of God becoming man and dying for the sins of the
world.



TRINITY NEW TESTAMENT
IJohn 5:7 (King James version) For there are three that bear record in
heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are
one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us,

In the book of Revelation, it says that Jesus’ name is the Word of God.
Revelation 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and
his name is called The Word of God.
The Bible refers to Jesus as the Word that was made flesh and dwelt
amongst us. In IJohn 5:7, the "Word" in that passage is referring to
Jesus. In the account of the baptism of Jesus in Luke 3:21, 22, you can
see all three members of the trinity existing separately at the same
time.
Luke 3:21,22 ...that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven
was opened. And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove
upon Him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou Art My beloved
Son; in thee I am well pleased.

The Father spoke from heaven, while Jesus the man was on Earth and the
Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape as a dove. Three separate
persons. The phrase " these three are one" in IJohn 5:7 means this.
Definition of the word one: The American Heritage Dictionary
ONE: 1. being a single entity, unit
2. characterized by unity; of a single kind or nature; undivided:
with one accord.
The use of the word One in IJohn 5:7 is using it according to this
definition number 2. It means that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost
have a unity, they have the same nature and they act with one accord.
That is how "these three are one".

The use of the word ONE in 1John 5:7 is not numerical one.
The definition of ONE in that verse is this:
of a single nature, undivided, with one accord. Get a big dictionary and
look up the word ONE. It has more than one meaning. It means that Jesus, the
Father and the Holy Spirit have the same nature, they are undivided in their
actions or purposes, they act with one accord. For proof that John uses the
word ONE to mean this definition, look at these scriptures.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world,
and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou
hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they
may be one, even as we are one:
Jesus is praying to the Father in these verses. He said, "that they may be
one, even as we are one." Jesus referred to Himself and the Father as, "We",
showing that Jesus and the Father are two separate persons. Jesus was
talking about His disciples, which are a lot more than one person. Jesus
said, "that they may be one", the definition used here can't be numerical
one; it must mean the other definition of being in one accord. Then He said,
"even as we are one", showing that He is using the same definition of being
in one accord when He spoke about Himself and God the Father who He was
praying to in these verses

The Bible says that God the Father is God.
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I
have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:
before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to
my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my
Father, and your Father; and[to my God, and your God.

The Bible says that Jesus Christ the Son is God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld
his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace
and truth.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into
glory.
(Jesus is the one that was received up into Glory, after His resurection;
this scripture also shows that Jesus is God.}
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be
equal with God:

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the
form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and
became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Phillipians 2:6 plainly shows that Jesus was in the form of God and equal
with God, before He became a man.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the
thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is]
to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from
everlasting.

This prophecy in Micah, is about the birth of the Messiah, who is Jesus
Christ, and it says that His goings forth have been from everlasting,
showing the deity of Jesus the Messiah.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called
Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of
Peace.

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no
end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to
establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.



John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the
glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,
and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail
because of him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the
Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of man:
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of
man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and
they brought him near before him.

Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that
all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an
everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that]
which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the
truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the
things.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom
under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the
most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions
shall serve and obey him.


In verse 7:13,14 it shows that an everlasting dominion is to be given to the
Son of man , and all people should serve Him. In verse 7:27, the
interpretation says that the most High has the everlasting kingdom.


The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie
to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold,
was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine
heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

So all three must be the one true Jehovah..

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man
speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can
say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same
Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the
same Lord.
1 Corinthians 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the
same God which worketh all in all.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 cor. 12:8 - 1 cor. 12:11), and the
administrations associated with the Lord Jesus, and the operations that are
associated with God the Father; it says that "the same God worketh all in
all."

Look at this scripture:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the
fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every
creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God called Himself, "us" and used the word "our" conscerning His image and
likeness. The words "us" and "our" indicate more than one person in God.

Evidence of the trinity in the Old Testament:
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my
right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up
together.
Isaiah 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have
brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret
from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord
GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am
the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the
way that thou shouldest go.


Jesus the Son is God; Isaiah prophesied a stone of stumbling:
Isaiah 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear,
and let him be your dread.

Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling
and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a
snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and
be snared, and be taken.

Isaiah's "stone of stumbling" is "the LORD of hosts". Here's the use the New
Testament authors make of this "stone of stumbling":
1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them
which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is
made the head of the corner,

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them]
which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were
appointed.


Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were
by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and
rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


To the New Testament authors, Isaiah's "stone of stumbling" is Jesus Christ.
The Bible testifies: Jesus Christ is the LORD of Hosts.


Look at these scriptures, they are all the same context. God the Father is
sitting on a throne and Jesus takes the book out of the Father's right hand.
Certainly, Jesus and the Father are two separate persons.

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him];
and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night,
saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to
come.
Revelation 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to
him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a
book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the
Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the
book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of
the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been
slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God
sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him
that sat upon the throne.


Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called
Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of
Peace.




To ascribe most of these names or powers to any one but God would be >
blasphemous, yet the Bible clearly ascribes ALL of them to Yeshua Hamashiakh

(Jesus Christ). It points to Yeshua (Jesus) and Yahweh being one and the >

same: the great "I AM." > > Used of Yahweh > Description > Used of Jesus
Christ > > Exodus 3:14 > YAHWEH ("I AM") > John 8:58 > > Genesis 1:1 > GOD >
Titus 2:13 > > Isaiah 48:12 > ALPHA AND OMEGA > Revelation 1:17, 18 > >
Isaiah 45:23 > LORD > Philippians 2:10, 11 > > Isaiah 43:11 > SAVIOR > John
4:42 > > Isaiah 43:15 > KING > Revelation 19:16 > > Genesis 18:25 > JUDGE >
2 Corinthians 5:10 > > Psalm 27:1 > LIGHT > John 8:12 > > Deuteronomy 32:3,4

ROCK > 1 Corinthians 10:3, 4 > > Isaiah 48:17 > REDEEMER > Ephesians 1:7 >
Isaiah 45:24 > OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS > Romans 3:21, 22 > > Isaiah 44:24 >

HUSBAND > 2 Corinthians 11:2 > > Psalm 23:1 > SHEPHERD > John 10:11-16 > >
Isaiah 44:24 > CREATOR > Colossians 1:16 > > Deuteronomy 32:39 > GIVER OF
LIFE > John 5:21 > > Daniel 9:9 > FORGIVER OF SIN > Mark 2:1-12 > > Exodus
15:26 > LORD OUR HEALER > Acts 9:34 > > Psalm 139:7-12 > OMNIPRESENT >
Matthew 28:19-20 > > 1 Kings 8:39 > OMNISCIENT > John 16:30 > > Isaiah
40:10-31 > OMNIPOTENT > Mark 1:29-34 > > Genesis 1:1 > PREEXISTENT > John
17:5 > > Psalm 102:26, 27 > ETERNAL > Isaiah 9:6 > > Malachi 3:6 > IMMUTABLE

Hebrews 13:8 > > John 4:24 > RECEIVER OF WORSHIP > Matthew 28:9 > > > > >

Taken from http://www.matsati.com/comparison.html MATSATI who is my brother

in Yeshua HaMashiakh.

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Saint Zombie wrote in message ...

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:34:28 GMT,

On 22 Mar 2005 23:30:49 -0800, "Shaqad" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote:

Actually the Trinity is not found in Scripture.
did G-D forget?, or was it an Idea that g-D did not
originate? how come it wasn't untill the 15th century
it became a Xtian doctorine?

You are incorrect. This verse is from the Old Testament and it tells of the
trinity. That was written long before the first century.

ISA.48:16: "from the beginning from the time that it was, I was there: ( 1st
person) and now the Lord GOD (2nd person) and his Spirit, (3rd person) hath
sent me(1st person

one speaking states that he was there from before time (Jn. 1:1 ) he refers
to the Lord and states that both Yahweh and his Spirit have sent me, (the
speaker.)