| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Winter JNAHC" |
| Date: |
24 Jun 2004 09:53:38 PM |
| Object: |
Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter
This is my text that I used for tonight's 6/24/2004 sermon
It should be available in audio format at
http://www.apostolic.biz/audio
We see many different flavors of trinitarian in the world, and
they are certainly "of the world". Some of them will be quite
honest regarding their polytheism but others will try to appear
to be monotheistic even as they launch into "great swelling
words" to try to defend their triunity.
God is not the author of confusion! You cannot be trinitarian
and monotheistic at the same time. A brief "one god" disclaimer
at the end of a lengthy three person discourse does NOT a
monotheist make! If you have three separate persons in a god
squad that agree together, how can you even imagine yourself as a
monotheist.
Who will be the Bridegroom of the Church? Would it be "god
person #1", "god person #2", or "god person #3"? Think about
it, sinner friend, your SOUL is at stake here and wicked sly men
are making merchandise of your immortal SOUL!
People accuse me of being intolerant. Well I certainly hope I am
intolerant towards those who want to destroy the souls of my
neighbors!
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD,
choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which
your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or
the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me
and my house, we will serve the LORD.
2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye
separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I
will receive you,
The bride of Christ is the bride of one Husband only. The true
bride of Jesus Christ is the bride of Jesus Only. True
monotheists know that Jesus is God the Father manifest in the
flesh and not some "second anything". Jesus Christ is the alpha
and the omega but He is not "second person" of some Roman god
squad.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the
ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to
come, the Almighty.
The phrase "Who art thou, Lord?" appears as a question only
three times in the Holy Bible. The answer is the same each
time!
Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I
am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick
against the pricks.
Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto
me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am
Jesus whom thou persecutest.
John 20:26 ¶ And after eight days again his disciples were
within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being
shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold
my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side:
and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou
hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have
believed.
That is NOT the religion called the "trinity" regardless of how
crafty deceivers try to make it appear so. Notice this next
verse that really nails it down that if you believe that Jesus is
not the Father, then you really don't know Jesus!
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me
hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the
Father?
I know there are verses that the trinitarians will use to try to
justify their polytheism (even as they themselves will so try to
deny their polytheism), but if we have a firm knowledge of truth
from the Word of God then we will not fall prey to the crafty
deceptions of the deceiver.
If you think this is not essential or important, why would Jesus
have stated that:
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the
commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Though we humans (created in God's image) have body, soul and
spirit we are not each "three separate persons". Though God
manifested Himself as "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" he is not
"three separate persons".
1) God is a Spirit.
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must
worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
2) God is holy.
I Samuel 2:2 [There is] none holy as the LORD: for [there is]
none beside thee: neither [is there] any rock like our God.
3) God is a "Holy Spirit".
4) Jesus is the "Spirit of truth"
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the
life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
5) Jesus was "dwelling with them" and promised to be "in them".
John 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot
receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye
know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
6) The "comforter" is the "Spirit of Christ"
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
7) The "Spirit of Christ" is the "Holy Spirit" is the "Spirit of
Truth"
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the
Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and
bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto
you.
8) The Spirit of God visited His creation robed in flesh as the
"Son".
I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of
godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the
Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on
in the world, received up into glory.
9) The fullness of God is in Jesus Christ
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead
bodily.
Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of
all principality and power:
10) Jesus IS the "everlasting Father".
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall
be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting
Father, The Prince of Peace.
11) Those who believe that Jesus is a "separate person" from the
"Father" don't really know Jesus at all.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me
hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the
Father?
Pastor sTeve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
.
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
|
| Title: Re: Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
25 Jun 2004 06:49:07 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Winter JNAHC" <steveNONO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message
news:ip4nd0du6nhtk5jmhl253ig9eclhjtsuqf@4ax.com...
Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter
This is my text that I used for tonight's 6/24/2004 sermon
It should be available in audio format at
http://www.apostolic.biz/audio
We see many different flavors of trinitarian in the world, and
they are certainly "of the world". Some of them will be quite
honest regarding their polytheism but others will try to appear
to be monotheistic even as they launch into "great swelling
words" to try to defend their triunity.
Much like your own (while also denying believing in a trinity, which makes
yours admittingly unique) !
God is not the author of confusion! You cannot be trinitarian
and monotheistic at the same time.
You seem to manage, with the twist of claiming not to be a trinitarian, you
still consider the Father, to be God, the Son, to be God, and the Holy
Spirit, to be God, you merely deny them being separate persons, in spite of
Jesus praying to the Father, declaring the Father to be superior to Him, and
declaring the Holy Spirit to be "the Comforter" coming to inform His
followers of all things, after He leaves
A brief "one god" disclaimer
at the end of a lengthy three person discourse does NOT a
monotheist make!
Nor does calling the *three* one, while denying that they are three
If you have three separate persons in a god
squad that agree together, how can you even imagine yourself as a
monotheist.(?)
If you have three unseparated person as god, agreeing with itself, how can
you imagine yourself as a monotheist ?
Who will be the Bridegroom of the Church? Would it be "god
person #1", "god person #2", or "god person #3"?
If you just call them "god person", you still have three
<snippers pretense of being a monotheist>
.
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| User: "Jim Arnett" |
|
| Title: Re: Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
28 Jun 2004 09:23:18 AM |
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|
Just wondering something Mr. Glenn, the Christian Mysic:
I'm not defending either one of you here as you both are well capable of
doing that yourselves, but why is it that in your rebuttals to this one
person in particular, do you not give any scriptural references to back
up your claims ?
Based upon the scripture, I myself can't see how there can be more than
one God:
1 Cor. 8:4 -- As concerning therefore the eating of those things that
are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in
the world, and that THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.
Is. 44:8 -- Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from
that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. IS THERE A
GOD BESIDE ME? yea, there is NO GOD; I KNOW NOT ANY.
Is. 45:5 -- I am the LORD, and THERE IS NONE ELSE, THERE IS NO GOD
BESIDE ME: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Is. 45:21 -- Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel
together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it
from that time? have not I the LORD? and THERE IS NO GOD ELSE BESIDE ME;
a just God and a Saviour*; THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME.
Hosea 13:4 -- Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and
thou shalt know no god but me: for THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME.
* LUKE 2:11 -- For unto you is born this day in the city of David a
Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
One more thing if you don't mind:
John 1:1-4 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things
were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
I quote the above verse because of John 1:14 which states "AND THE WORD
BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US, and we beheld His glory, THE GLORY AND
OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, full of grace and truth." We know
that God is the same yesterday, today, and forver.
We don't need to try and limit how God choosed to manifest Himself to us
with our limited minds. Only when He comes to take us home will we see
Him as He truly is. I feel and believe that He has chosen to manifest
Himself as He has because we are unable to accept Him and see Him in His
true form. It is my belief based upon what I've read and studied that
both Trinitarians and Oneness believers are both right, but only to a
limited extent. We need to respect, accept, and embrace both outlooks.
It was Jesus Himself who said to baptize in the name of the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Spirit. It was the apostles who said to baptize in
Jesus' Name. Jesus is the last name that we were given for God. God is
the Father, God is the Son, and God is the Holy Spirit. We have flesh,
we have a soul, and we have a spirit, but yet I am still Jimmy. God is
still Jesus.
Furthermore, study the Holy Bible, throughout it all, especially the OT,
God manifested Himself in many, many ways. Please, let's not limit what
our might, awesome God is capable of, but let is be careful of what man
says about Him. All things can be proven or disproven by God's Holy Word.
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:
"Pastor Winter JNAHC" <steveNONO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message
news:ip4nd0du6nhtk5jmhl253ig9eclhjtsuqf@4ax.com...
Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter
This is my text that I used for tonight's 6/24/2004 sermon
It should be available in audio format at
http://www.apostolic.biz/audio
We see many different flavors of trinitarian in the world, and
they are certainly "of the world". Some of them will be quite
honest regarding their polytheism but others will try to appear
to be monotheistic even as they launch into "great swelling
words" to try to defend their triunity.
Much like your own (while also denying believing in a trinity, which makes
yours admittingly unique) !
God is not the author of confusion! You cannot be trinitarian
and monotheistic at the same time.
You seem to manage, with the twist of claiming not to be a trinitarian, you
still consider the Father, to be God, the Son, to be God, and the Holy
Spirit, to be God, you merely deny them being separate persons, in spite of
Jesus praying to the Father, declaring the Father to be superior to Him, and
declaring the Holy Spirit to be "the Comforter" coming to inform His
followers of all things, after He leaves
A brief "one god" disclaimer
at the end of a lengthy three person discourse does NOT a
monotheist make!
Nor does calling the *three* one, while denying that they are three
If you have three separate persons in a god
squad that agree together, how can you even imagine yourself as a
monotheist.(?)
If you have three unseparated person as god, agreeing with itself, how can
you imagine yourself as a monotheist ?
Who will be the Bridegroom of the Church? Would it be "god
person #1", "god person #2", or "god person #3"?
If you just call them "god person", you still have three
<snippers pretense of being a monotheist>
.
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
28 Jun 2004 12:27:41 PM |
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|
"Jim Arnett" <jima@nospam.netdoor.com> wrote in message
news:d4mdnSwBEvJNtH3dRVn-vA@netdoor.com...
Just wondering something Mr. Glenn, the Christian Mysic:
I have not had any dealings with SW or GCM in ages. However, it is my
understanding that Glenn rejects the authority of the Bible to a high
degree.
I have just removed him from my KF.
Glenn?
Bob<><
I'm not defending either one of you here as you both are well capable of
doing that yourselves, but why is it that in your rebuttals to this one
person in particular, do you not give any scriptural references to back
up your claims ?
Based upon the scripture, I myself can't see how there can be more than
one God:
1 Cor. 8:4 -- As concerning therefore the eating of those things that
are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in
the world, and that THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.
Is. 44:8 -- Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from
that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. IS THERE A
GOD BESIDE ME? yea, there is NO GOD; I KNOW NOT ANY.
Is. 45:5 -- I am the LORD, and THERE IS NONE ELSE, THERE IS NO GOD
BESIDE ME: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Is. 45:21 -- Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel
together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it
from that time? have not I the LORD? and THERE IS NO GOD ELSE BESIDE ME;
a just God and a Saviour*; THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME.
Hosea 13:4 -- Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and
thou shalt know no god but me: for THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME.
* LUKE 2:11 -- For unto you is born this day in the city of David a
Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
One more thing if you don't mind:
John 1:1-4 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things
were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
I quote the above verse because of John 1:14 which states "AND THE WORD
BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US, and we beheld His glory, THE GLORY AND
OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, full of grace and truth." We know
that God is the same yesterday, today, and forver.
We don't need to try and limit how God choosed to manifest Himself to us
with our limited minds. Only when He comes to take us home will we see
Him as He truly is. I feel and believe that He has chosen to manifest
Himself as He has because we are unable to accept Him and see Him in His
true form. It is my belief based upon what I've read and studied that
both Trinitarians and Oneness believers are both right, but only to a
limited extent. We need to respect, accept, and embrace both outlooks.
It was Jesus Himself who said to baptize in the name of the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Spirit. It was the apostles who said to baptize in
Jesus' Name. Jesus is the last name that we were given for God. God is
the Father, God is the Son, and God is the Holy Spirit. We have flesh,
we have a soul, and we have a spirit, but yet I am still Jimmy. God is
still Jesus.
Furthermore, study the Holy Bible, throughout it all, especially the OT,
God manifested Himself in many, many ways. Please, let's not limit what
our might, awesome God is capable of, but let is be careful of what man
says about Him. All things can be proven or disproven by God's Holy Word.
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:
"Pastor Winter JNAHC" <steveNONO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message
news:ip4nd0du6nhtk5jmhl253ig9eclhjtsuqf@4ax.com...
Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter
This is my text that I used for tonight's 6/24/2004 sermon
It should be available in audio format at
http://www.apostolic.biz/audio
We see many different flavors of trinitarian in the world, and
they are certainly "of the world". Some of them will be quite
honest regarding their polytheism but others will try to appear
to be monotheistic even as they launch into "great swelling
words" to try to defend their triunity.
Much like your own (while also denying believing in a trinity, which
makes
yours admittingly unique) !
God is not the author of confusion! You cannot be trinitarian
and monotheistic at the same time.
You seem to manage, with the twist of claiming not to be a trinitarian,
you
still consider the Father, to be God, the Son, to be God, and the Holy
Spirit, to be God, you merely deny them being separate persons, in spite
of
Jesus praying to the Father, declaring the Father to be superior to Him,
and
declaring the Holy Spirit to be "the Comforter" coming to inform His
followers of all things, after He leaves
A brief "one god" disclaimer
at the end of a lengthy three person discourse does NOT a
monotheist make!
Nor does calling the *three* one, while denying that they are three
If you have three separate persons in a god
squad that agree together, how can you even imagine yourself as a
monotheist.(?)
If you have three unseparated person as god, agreeing with itself, how
can
you imagine yourself as a monotheist ?
Who will be the Bridegroom of the Church? Would it be "god
person #1", "god person #2", or "god person #3"?
If you just call them "god person", you still have three
<snippers pretense of being a monotheist>
.
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
28 Jun 2004 11:59:19 PM |
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|
"Bob" <bob@bob.bob> wrote in message
news:hyYDc.17439$bs4.16258@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Jim Arnett" <jima@nospam.netdoor.com> wrote in message
news:d4mdnSwBEvJNtH3dRVn-vA@netdoor.com...
Just wondering something Mr. Glenn, the Christian Mysic:
I have not had any dealings with SW or GCM in ages. However, it is my
understanding that Glenn rejects the authority of the Bible to a high
degree.
If you mean, I don't accept it as any more than God inspired, then you are
correct. BUT if you mean that I totally reject it, then you are wrong
Too often, though, one is accused of not believing the Bible, merely because
they do not agree with how the accuser thinks is the *only* way to
understand it (such are the ones who usually kill-file the accused)
I have just removed him from my KF.
Glenn?
Hello :-)
Bob<><
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
.
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
28 Jun 2004 11:48:53 PM |
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"Jim Arnett" <jima@nospam.netdoor.com> wrote in message
news:d4mdnSwBEvJNtH3dRVn-vA@netdoor.com...
Just wondering something Mr. Glenn, the Christian Mysic:
OK
I'm not defending either one of you here as you both are well capable of
doing that yourselves, but why is it that in your rebuttals to this one
person in particular, do you not give any scriptural references to back
up your claims ?
Which claims
Based upon the scripture, I myself can't see how there can be more than
one God:
Nor I
1 Cor. 8:4 -- As concerning therefore the eating of those things that
are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in
the world, and that THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.
Is. 44:8 -- Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from
that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. IS THERE A
GOD BESIDE ME? yea, there is NO GOD; I KNOW NOT ANY.
That would include Jesus, the the Trinity, there are three persons, beside
each other, all declared to be part of the 'one god'
Is. 45:5 -- I am the LORD, and THERE IS NONE ELSE, THERE IS NO GOD
BESIDE ME: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Again, none *beside* Him
Is. 45:21 -- Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel
together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it
from that time? have not I the LORD? and THERE IS NO GOD ELSE BESIDE ME;
a just God and a Saviour*; THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME.
Hosea 13:4 -- Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and
thou shalt know no god but me: for THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME.
* LUKE 2:11 -- For unto you is born this day in the city of David a
Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Christ means "anointed one" a human king, a lord
One more thing if you don't mind:
John 1:1-4 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things
were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
I quote the above verse because of John 1:14 which states "AND THE WORD
BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US, and we beheld His glory, THE GLORY AND
OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, full of grace and truth."
God is SPIRIT, He becomes flesh by ENTERING flesh, as happened when Jesus,
the man, was baptized, and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, set on Him
We know
that God is the same yesterday, today, and forver.
We don't need to try and limit how God choosed to manifest Himself to us
with our limited minds. Only when He comes to take us home will we see
Him as He truly is. I feel and believe that He has chosen to manifest
Himself as He has because we are unable to accept Him and see Him in His
true form.
A Spirit
It is my belief based upon what I've read and studied that
both Trinitarians and Oneness believers are both right, but only to a
limited extent. We need to respect, accept, and embrace both outlooks.
From what I can see, they are both TRINITARIANS
It was Jesus Himself who said to baptize in the name of the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Spirit. It was the apostles who said to baptize in
Jesus' Name. Jesus is the last name that we were given for God.
Nope
God is the Father,
Yes
God is the Son,
No, no more than God is myself.
and God is the Holy Spirit.
Yes
We have flesh,
We are trapped in a fleshly body, yes
we have a soul,
We are a soul, while our spirit is combined with our body
and we have a spirit,
We are spirits, and nothing more
but yet I am still Jimmy. God is
still Jesus.
Wrong
Furthermore, study the Holy Bible,
I have, such is how I know that Jesus isn't God
throughout it all, especially the OT, God manifested Himself in many, many
ways. Please, let's not limit what
our might, awesome God is capable of, but let is be careful of what man
says about Him. All things can be proven or disproven by God's Holy Word.
<snipped, old stuff>
.
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| User: "Jim Arnett" |
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| Title: Re: Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
29 Jun 2004 05:41:27 PM |
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Also, I don't mean to imply that I'm backing or even agreeing with Mr.
Winter's thoughts, opinions, or beliefs. I hope we all (believers) meet
up in heaven and can rejoice over it. I've visited Mr. Winter's website
once and rather than mention anything about it, I'll just leave it at that.
God bless us all!
.
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| User: "Jim Arnett" |
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| Title: Re: Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
05 Jul 2004 02:04:46 PM |
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Jim Arnett wrote:
Also, I don't mean to imply that I'm backing or even agreeing with Mr.
Winter's thoughts, opinions, or beliefs. I hope we all (believers) meet
up in heaven and can rejoice over it. I've visited Mr. Winter's website
once and rather than mention anything about it, I'll just leave it at that.
God bless us all!
Ok, here. I admit I must have jumped the gun quite a bit on my first
post. Instead, I should have told myself to go study the Bible, which I
have done. Not completely, obviously, but God has shown me a beginning.
There's still a lot for me to learn and I readily acknowledge and
accept this. Anyways......... I opened my Bible and came to the Gospel
of John Chapter 15. For length, I will just quote verses 8-10; 15,16;
and 21-26, which taken for the word and they are the words of Christ
Himself to His chosen and now for us:
15:8-10 -- Herein is MY Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit, so
shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved ME, so have I loved
you; continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall
abide in my love; even as I have kept MY Father's commandments, and
abide in HIS love.
15:15,16 -- Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth
not what his lord doeth; but I have called you friends; for all things
that I have heard of MY Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not
chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go
and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that
whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, HE may give it to you.
15:21-26 -- But all these things they will do unto you for my name's
sake because they know not HIM THAT SENT ME. If I had not come and
spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for
their sin. He that hateth me hateth MY Father also. If I had not done
among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but
now have they both seen and hated BOTH ME AND MY FATHER. But this
cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in
their law. They hated me without a cause. But when the Comforter is
come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of
truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: and ye
also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
I didn't take the time to highlight or add emphasis to each and every
part but you can see that it's in their. I'm not saying that Jesus is
not of God or even God, because in the beginning of Matthew it is
clearly stated that Jesus is God.
One other thing. During the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist. Was
there not the three manifestations of God at one time? Jesus, as man
being baptized, the Father's voice through the opened heavens ("This is
my Son in whom I am well pleased"), and the Holy Spirit decending upon
Him as a dove.?.
I asked God to reveal Himself to me and let me know if what I'm learning
in the church I'm attending now is feeding me His true and whole Word or
if it is the doctrine of man.
Well, what happened? In our Sunday evening service we had a visitor
from a church not far from ours that is highly respected and well
thought of in this particular denomination. During our prayer meeting
before service I heard "tongues" like never before. The voice during
prayer and her praising of the Lord during our service sounded of what I
could only say was from other than God. There were noises and laughing
and repetition of things which I have never heard, heard of, or could
find examples of in Scripture.
Maybe this woman was closer to the Lord that anyone I've ever known and
met or it was a sure sign from God for me to make my exit. Things
during our last service and afterwards just didn't seem/feel right with
my spirit. Where can a person find a church that doesn't teach a
doctrine of man, but the Gospel that was given by our Lord and Saviour
Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the true and risen God that I want to be a
part of me and live with the presence of His Spirit within me?
I know and have seen, read, and studied the passages saying that there
is only one God. I truly know and believe there is only one God. But,
that one God to me, through my study of the Word of God so far had led
me to believe with all I am that the one God does consist of the Father,
the Son, and the Holy Spirit. No where, not once, have I found the
Father being called Jesus, or the Holy Ghost being called Jesus.
I know and believe that we can only come to the Father through Jesus as
it is stated and I do believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I
believe that signs will confirm the true followers of Christ.
I've looked at tracts from various denominations and they all have
something different to say. I've looked at the Word of God and it
always tells me the same thing. Don't try to condemn me for my beliefs
or pray for my salvation. I've given all that I am to God through my
belief in Jesus as the Son of God and His shed blood on the cross, and
His resurrection three days later. There's no more persuading me in
these matters. My foundation is built upon the rock of Christ who was
sent by His Father, our Father, to give as an example for us to live by,
and to reconcile us to God's family. All I want now is to find a
family, a church that worships the God in truth and in spirit. Not our
truth and by our spirits, but follows His Word completely.
Call me what you want, Trinitarian, Oneness, or whatever, but God called
my His.
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| User: "Jim Arnett" |
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| Title: Re: Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
29 Jun 2004 04:37:16 PM |
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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't
consider myself Oneness or Trinitarian, only Christian. My own viewing
of the Godhead may put me in one category or the other by the beliefs of
others, but not my own. But, yes, a but here, I do see the views of
both as one.
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:
"Jim Arnett" <jima@nospam.netdoor.com> wrote in message
news:d4mdnSwBEvJNtH3dRVn-vA@netdoor.com...
Just wondering something Mr. Glenn, the Christian Mysic:
OK
I'm not defending either one of you here as you both are well capable of
doing that yourselves, but why is it that in your rebuttals to this one
person in particular, do you not give any scriptural references to back
up your claims ?
Which claims
Based upon the scripture, I myself can't see how there can be more than
one God:
Nor I
1 Cor. 8:4 -- As concerning therefore the eating of those things that
are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in
the world, and that THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.
Is. 44:8 -- Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from
that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. IS THERE A
GOD BESIDE ME? yea, there is NO GOD; I KNOW NOT ANY.
That would include Jesus, the the Trinity, there are three persons, beside
each other, all declared to be part of the 'one god'
Is. 45:5 -- I am the LORD, and THERE IS NONE ELSE, THERE IS NO GOD
BESIDE ME: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Again, none *beside* Him
Is. 45:21 -- Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel
together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it
from that time? have not I the LORD? and THERE IS NO GOD ELSE BESIDE ME;
a just God and a Saviour*; THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME.
Hosea 13:4 -- Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and
thou shalt know no god but me: for THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME.
* LUKE 2:11 -- For unto you is born this day in the city of David a
Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Christ means "anointed one" a human king, a lord
One more thing if you don't mind:
John 1:1-4 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things
were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
I quote the above verse because of John 1:14 which states "AND THE WORD
BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US, and we beheld His glory, THE GLORY AND
OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, full of grace and truth."
God is SPIRIT, He becomes flesh by ENTERING flesh, as happened when Jesus,
the man, was baptized, and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, set on Him
We know
that God is the same yesterday, today, and forver.
We don't need to try and limit how God choosed to manifest Himself to us
with our limited minds. Only when He comes to take us home will we see
Him as He truly is. I feel and believe that He has chosen to manifest
Himself as He has because we are unable to accept Him and see Him in His
true form.
A Spirit
It is my belief based upon what I've read and studied that
both Trinitarians and Oneness believers are both right, but only to a
limited extent. We need to respect, accept, and embrace both outlooks.
From what I can see, they are both TRINITARIANS
It was Jesus Himself who said to baptize in the name of the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Spirit. It was the apostles who said to baptize in
Jesus' Name. Jesus is the last name that we were given for God.
Nope
God is the Father,
Yes
God is the Son,
No, no more than God is myself.
and God is the Holy Spirit.
Yes
We have flesh,
We are trapped in a fleshly body, yes
we have a soul,
We are a soul, while our spirit is combined with our body
and we have a spirit,
We are spirits, and nothing more
but yet I am still Jimmy. God is
still Jesus.
Wrong
Furthermore, study the Holy Bible,
I have, such is how I know that Jesus isn't God
throughout it all, especially the OT, God manifested Himself in many, many
ways. Please, let's not limit what
our might, awesome God is capable of, but let is be careful of what man
says about Him. All things can be proven or disproven by God's Holy Word.
<snipped, old stuff>
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
29 Jun 2004 08:37:53 PM |
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"Jim Arnett" <jima@nospam.netdoor.com> wrote in message
news:MIudnY2IKoKffHzdRVn-hg@netdoor.com...
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
WOW ! I wish more people could be so laid back :-)
I don't
consider myself Oneness or Trinitarian, only Christian. My own viewing
of the Godhead may put me in one category or the other by the beliefs of
others, but not my own. But, yes, a but here, I do see the views of
both as one.
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| User: "google this" |
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| Title: Re: Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
29 Jun 2004 10:37:23 PM |
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Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of
His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
"no abba Winter JNAHC" <steve@prime.org> wrote in message
news:ip4nd0du6nhtk5jmhl253ig9eclhjtsuqf@4ax.com...
Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter
This is my text that I used for tonight's 6/24/2004 sermon
It should be available in audio format at
http://www.apostolic.biz/audio
We see many different flavors of trinitarian in the world, and
they are certainly "of the world". Some of them will be quite
honest regarding their polytheism but others will try to appear
to be monotheistic even as they launch into "great swelling
words" to try to defend their triunity.
God is not the author of confusion! You cannot be trinitarian
and monotheistic at the same time. A brief "one god" disclaimer
at the end of a lengthy three person discourse does NOT a
monotheist make! If you have three separate persons in a god
squad that agree together, how can you even imagine yourself as a
monotheist.
Who will be the Bridegroom of the Church? Would it be "god
person #1", "god person #2", or "god person #3"? Think about
it, sinner friend, your SOUL is at stake here and wicked sly men
are making merchandise of your immortal SOUL!
People accuse me of being intolerant. Well I certainly hope I am
intolerant towards those who want to destroy the souls of my
neighbors!
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD,
choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which
your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or
the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me
and my house, we will serve the LORD.
2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye
separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I
will receive you,
The bride of Christ is the bride of one Husband only. The true
bride of Jesus Christ is the bride of Jesus Only. True
monotheists know that Jesus is God the Father manifest in the
flesh and not some "second anything". Jesus Christ is the alpha
and the omega but He is not "second person" of some Roman god
squad.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the
ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to
come, the Almighty.
The phrase "Who art thou, Lord?" appears as a question only
three times in the Holy Bible. The answer is the same each
time!
Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I
am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick
against the pricks.
Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto
me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am
Jesus whom thou persecutest.
John 20:26 ¶ And after eight days again his disciples were
within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being
shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold
my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side:
and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou
hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have
believed.
That is NOT the religion called the "trinity" regardless of how
crafty deceivers try to make it appear so. Notice this next
verse that really nails it down that if you believe that Jesus is
not the Father, then you really don't know Jesus!
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me
hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the
Father?
I know there are verses that the trinitarians will use to try to
justify their polytheism (even as they themselves will so try to
deny their polytheism), but if we have a firm knowledge of truth
from the Word of God then we will not fall prey to the crafty
deceptions of the deceiver.
If you think this is not essential or important, why would Jesus
have stated that:
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the
commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Though we humans (created in God's image) have body, soul and
spirit we are not each "three separate persons". Though God
manifested Himself as "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" he is not
"three separate persons".
1) God is a Spirit.
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must
worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
2) God is holy.
I Samuel 2:2 [There is] none holy as the LORD: for [there is]
none beside thee: neither [is there] any rock like our God.
3) God is a "Holy Spirit".
4) Jesus is the "Spirit of truth"
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the
life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
5) Jesus was "dwelling with them" and promised to be "in them".
John 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot
receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye
know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
6) The "comforter" is the "Spirit of Christ"
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
7) The "Spirit of Christ" is the "Holy Spirit" is the "Spirit of
Truth"
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the
Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and
bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto
you.
8) The Spirit of God visited His creation robed in flesh as the
"Son".
I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of
godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the
Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on
in the world, received up into glory.
9) The fullness of God is in Jesus Christ
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead
bodily.
Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of
all principality and power:
10) Jesus IS the "everlasting Father".
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall
be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting
Father, The Prince of Peace.
11) Those who believe that Jesus is a "separate person" from the
"Father" don't really know Jesus at all.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me
hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the
Father?
Pastor sTeve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: Trinity Polytheism Sermon - Pastor Steve Winter |
30 Jun 2004 01:22:01 PM |
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"google this" <cultbuster@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:TzqEc.5651$lh4.468@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of
His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
Kinda says it all, doesn't it ?
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