Religions > Bible > True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Disciple Gaius" |
| Date: |
17 Mar 2007 01:15:44 PM |
| Object: |
True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
With such charlatans as seen on TV and in charismatic/pentecostalist
gatherings claiming to raise the dead [ in other lands of course], how
do we recognize a true authenticating miracle?
First off, it is before our very own eyes or by recognized witnesses
both sympathetic as well as antagonistic. But, look at scripture
miracles, I'm using the NRSV.
THEY ARE JUDGEABLE BY THE SENSES: Luke 24:37-43 "look", "see",
"touch", "see" again.
IT IS NOT AMBIGUOUS: 1 Kings 17:18--24 "death of my son!", "killing
her son", "life of the child came into him again, and he revived",
"See, your son is alive". Same thing in 2 Kings 4:31-35
IT IS BEFORE ENTIRE TOWN, NOT JUST GULLIBLE FOLLOWERS OF DECEPTION:
Acts 3:2-10 "a man lame from birth", "people would lay him daily at
the gate of the temple", seen daily by "those entering the temple",
"IMMEDIATELY his feet and ankles were made strong", "All the people
saw him walking and praising God, and they recognized him as the one
who used to sit and ask for alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple;
and they were filled with wonder and amazement" [This did not happen
over in the next city, State, or nation; but before them all!]
AUTHENICATING MIRACLES INCLUDED RAISING THE DEAD:
Acts 9:36-43 Where Tabitha, a disciple of Joppa who did works of
charity died and her body had been washed and she was laid in an
upstairs room. Lydda was a town over 10 miles away from Joppa, but
Peter was there and they sent for Peter. Peter came to Joppa and
raised Tabitha from the dead. "This became known throughout Joppa".
See Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead though he was already stinking
in decomposition: John 11:11-47... Jesus enemies did not deny the
miracles for they said, v47: "What are we to do? This man is
performing many signs..."
Only the most gullible and/or emotionally unstable would swallow the
fake miracles of the TV charismatics and pentecostalists. Such false
prophets must be distinguished from the truth of God Almighty.
Gaius
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| User: "Zadok" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
17 Mar 2007 08:01:37 PM |
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"Disciple Gaius" <> wrote in message...
First off, it is before our very own eyes or by recognized witnesses
both sympathetic as well as antagonistic. But, look at scripture
miracles, I'm using the NRSV.
Let's look at the bible!!
First of all, Luke never met Jesus. Luke never knew Jesus. Luke never
studied with Jesus!! So, lets assign Luke to where he belongs. Certainly not
in the bible.
Now, Gaius did mention the raising of Lazarus in John 11.
1) John 11 3 and 4 - 3Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord,
behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
4When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for
the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
THE SICKNESS IS NOT UNTO DEATH!!
2) Verse 11 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our
friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
LAZARUS SLEEPETH!!
3) Verse 14 - Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
LAZARUS IS DEAD!!
So what was it??
First Lazarus, is sick, BUT NOT UNTO DEATH!! Then he is SLEEPING!! And
finally he is DEAD!!
The whole story is mixed up!!
How could he be sick, but not unto DEATH, then be SLEEPING, and finally
DEAD??
There is something wrong with the story -
HE WAS SICK, BUT NOT UNTO DEATH!!
THEN HOW DID HE END UP DEAD?? IF THE SICKNESS WAS NOT UNTO DEATH??
Sorry, it doesn't sound like a miracle to me.
It seems like some kind of ritual, where Lazarus pretended to be dead, and
left his old life behind him, and entered into a new spiritual life.
Or you can just decide that it is a POORLY WRITTEN FABLE!!
Smile.
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| User: "Phlogeus" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
17 Mar 2007 10:36:48 PM |
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In article <45fc304e.19733525@news.east.cox.net>, wrote:
With such charlatans as seen on TV and in charismatic/pentecostalist
gatherings claiming to raise the dead [ in other lands of course], how
do we recognize a true authenticating miracle?
By the fact that there aren't any.
Any one who claims one is deluded, a fool or a fraud or some or all three
of them.
That was easy.
Next question.
Wait for Weatherly to prove me right in the three assertions in sentence two
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| User: "old man joe" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
17 Mar 2007 03:14:33 PM |
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On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:15:44 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
With such charlatans as seen on TV and in charismatic/pentecostalist
gatherings claiming to raise the dead [ in other lands of course], how
do we recognize a true authenticating miracle?
First off, it is before our very own eyes or by recognized witnesses
both sympathetic as well as antagonistic. But, look at scripture
miracles, I'm using the NRSV.
THEY ARE JUDGEABLE BY THE SENSES: Luke 24:37-43 "look", "see",
"touch", "see" again.
IT IS NOT AMBIGUOUS: 1 Kings 17:18--24 "death of my son!", "killing
her son", "life of the child came into him again, and he revived",
"See, your son is alive". Same thing in 2 Kings 4:31-35
IT IS BEFORE ENTIRE TOWN, NOT JUST GULLIBLE FOLLOWERS OF DECEPTION:
Acts 3:2-10 "a man lame from birth", "people would lay him daily at
the gate of the temple", seen daily by "those entering the temple",
"IMMEDIATELY his feet and ankles were made strong", "All the people
saw him walking and praising God, and they recognized him as the one
who used to sit and ask for alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple;
and they were filled with wonder and amazement" [This did not happen
over in the next city, State, or nation; but before them all!]
AUTHENICATING MIRACLES INCLUDED RAISING THE DEAD:
Acts 9:36-43 Where Tabitha, a disciple of Joppa who did works of
charity died and her body had been washed and she was laid in an
upstairs room. Lydda was a town over 10 miles away from Joppa, but
Peter was there and they sent for Peter. Peter came to Joppa and
raised Tabitha from the dead. "This became known throughout Joppa".
See Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead though he was already stinking
in decomposition: John 11:11-47... Jesus enemies did not deny the
miracles for they said, v47: "What are we to do? This man is
performing many signs..."
Only the most gullible and/or emotionally unstable would swallow the
fake miracles of the TV charismatics and pentecostalists. Such false
prophets must be distinguished from the truth of God Almighty.
Gaius
suburb !
*****************************************************************
" and as many as had been appointed to eternal life, believed."
Acts 13:48
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| User: "Zadok" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
17 Mar 2007 08:08:45 PM |
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"old man joe" <one of the resident idiots > wrote in message
suburb !
Is that some kind of fake spelling??
Hehehehehehe!!
Try Superb!!
What a joke you are!!
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| User: "Disciple Gaius" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
18 Mar 2007 07:13:55 AM |
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On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 16:14:33 -0400, old man joe <not@home.com> wrote:
On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:15:44 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
With such charlatans as seen on TV and in charismatic/pentecostalist
gatherings claiming to raise the dead [ in other lands of course], how
do we recognize a true authenticating miracle?
First off, it is before our very own eyes or by recognized witnesses
both sympathetic as well as antagonistic. But, look at scripture
miracles, I'm using the NRSV.
THEY ARE JUDGEABLE BY THE SENSES: Luke 24:37-43 "look", "see",
"touch", "see" again.
IT IS NOT AMBIGUOUS: 1 Kings 17:18--24 "death of my son!", "killing
her son", "life of the child came into him again, and he revived",
"See, your son is alive". Same thing in 2 Kings 4:31-35
IT IS BEFORE ENTIRE TOWN, NOT JUST GULLIBLE FOLLOWERS OF DECEPTION:
Acts 3:2-10 "a man lame from birth", "people would lay him daily at
the gate of the temple", seen daily by "those entering the temple",
"IMMEDIATELY his feet and ankles were made strong", "All the people
saw him walking and praising God, and they recognized him as the one
who used to sit and ask for alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple;
and they were filled with wonder and amazement" [This did not happen
over in the next city, State, or nation; but before them all!]
AUTHENICATING MIRACLES INCLUDED RAISING THE DEAD:
Acts 9:36-43 Where Tabitha, a disciple of Joppa who did works of
charity died and her body had been washed and she was laid in an
upstairs room. Lydda was a town over 10 miles away from Joppa, but
Peter was there and they sent for Peter. Peter came to Joppa and
raised Tabitha from the dead. "This became known throughout Joppa".
See Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead though he was already stinking
in decomposition: John 11:11-47... Jesus enemies did not deny the
miracles for they said, v47: "What are we to do? This man is
performing many signs..."
Only the most gullible and/or emotionally unstable would swallow the
fake miracles of the TV charismatics and pentecostalists. Such false
prophets must be distinguished from the truth of God Almighty.
Gaius
suburb !
*****************************************************************
This is not original with me. I learned it from a fine man of God out
of the past from a 19th century bible dictionary. It does seem needed
so much in this day and I am encouraged to see you are in hearty
agreement.
Gaius
" and as many as had been appointed to eternal life, believed."
Acts 13:48
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
18 Mar 2007 11:36:58 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:13:55 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 16:14:33 -0400, old man joe <not@home.com> wrote:
On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:15:44 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
With such charlatans as seen on TV and in charismatic/pentecostalist
gatherings claiming to raise the dead [ in other lands of course], how
do we recognize a true authenticating miracle?
First off, it is before our very own eyes or by recognized witnesses
both sympathetic as well as antagonistic. But, look at scripture
miracles, I'm using the NRSV.
THEY ARE JUDGEABLE BY THE SENSES: Luke 24:37-43 "look", "see",
"touch", "see" again.
IT IS NOT AMBIGUOUS: 1 Kings 17:18--24 "death of my son!", "killing
her son", "life of the child came into him again, and he revived",
"See, your son is alive". Same thing in 2 Kings 4:31-35
IT IS BEFORE ENTIRE TOWN, NOT JUST GULLIBLE FOLLOWERS OF DECEPTION:
Acts 3:2-10 "a man lame from birth", "people would lay him daily at
the gate of the temple", seen daily by "those entering the temple",
"IMMEDIATELY his feet and ankles were made strong", "All the people
saw him walking and praising God, and they recognized him as the one
who used to sit and ask for alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple;
and they were filled with wonder and amazement" [This did not happen
over in the next city, State, or nation; but before them all!]
AUTHENICATING MIRACLES INCLUDED RAISING THE DEAD:
Acts 9:36-43 Where Tabitha, a disciple of Joppa who did works of
charity died and her body had been washed and she was laid in an
upstairs room. Lydda was a town over 10 miles away from Joppa, but
Peter was there and they sent for Peter. Peter came to Joppa and
raised Tabitha from the dead. "This became known throughout Joppa".
See Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead though he was already stinking
in decomposition: John 11:11-47... Jesus enemies did not deny the
miracles for they said, v47: "What are we to do? This man is
performing many signs..."
Only the most gullible and/or emotionally unstable would swallow the
fake miracles of the TV charismatics and pentecostalists. Such false
prophets must be distinguished from the truth of God Almighty.
Gaius
suburb !
*****************************************************************
This is not original with me. I learned it from a fine man of God out
of the past from a 19th century bible dictionary. It does seem needed
so much in this day and I am encouraged to see you are in hearty
agreement.
I've seen and heard similar.
One thing the pretenders forget / ignore is that Jesus told the lepers
"Go and present yourselves to the elders (to prove you have been
healed and to let the entire community know it)."
The many who rose from the grave the moment Jesus died -- they also
presented themselves to the elders as proof of the miracle.
When the pretenders balk at proving their miracles and healings by
presenting themselves to authorities (doctors, the media, the
community at large), they seem to believe they have much to hide (like
reality)
john w
Gaius
" and as many as had been appointed to eternal life, believed."
Acts 13:48
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| User: "Disciple Gaius" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
18 Mar 2007 01:03:22 PM |
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On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:36:58 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I've seen and heard similar.
One thing the pretenders forget / ignore is that Jesus told the lepers
"Go and present yourselves to the elders (to prove you have been
healed and to let the entire community know it)."
The many who rose from the grave the moment Jesus died -- they also
presented themselves to the elders as proof of the miracle.
When the pretenders balk at proving their miracles and healings by
presenting themselves to authorities (doctors, the media, the
community at large), they seem to believe they have much to hide (like
reality)
john w
I fear the state of the church today is troubled. When Ted Haggard hit
the news I went to google to find out who this person was for I'd
never heard the name. I learned he is basically charismatic and yet he
was President of the National Association of Evangelicals. I went and
checked the membership of that organization and was dumbfounded at the
groups listed. I will NEVER refer to myself as "evangelical" after
seeing what the term must mean now to people in general.
Gaius
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
19 Mar 2007 12:15:21 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:03:22 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:36:58 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I've seen and heard similar.
One thing the pretenders forget / ignore is that Jesus told the lepers
"Go and present yourselves to the elders (to prove you have been
healed and to let the entire community know it)."
The many who rose from the grave the moment Jesus died -- they also
presented themselves to the elders as proof of the miracle.
When the pretenders balk at proving their miracles and healings by
presenting themselves to authorities (doctors, the media, the
community at large), they seem to believe they have much to hide (like
reality)
john w
I fear the state of the church today is troubled. When Ted Haggard hit
the news I went to google to find out who this person was for I'd
never heard the name. I learned he is basically charismatic and yet he
was President of the National Association of Evangelicals. I went and
checked the membership of that organization and was dumbfounded at the
groups listed. I will NEVER refer to myself as "evangelical" after
seeing what the term must mean now to people in general.
Gaius
I didn't know Ted Haggard was pentecostal/charismatic (what's the
diff?) until several others did searches and said so.
I myself have gone to a number of web pages of Christian leadership I
have trusted for YEARS. When I see the "links" pages and the "fringe"
they associate with, it turns my stomach.
I certainly understand Billy Graham's association with such groups
(when in Rome), but I don't get some of the extremists the
"conservative" are now associating with!
I certainly understand Paul teaching "when in Rome", but I think there
really need to be some lines, some limits somewhere.
God bless!
john w
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| User: "Disciple Gaius" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
19 Mar 2007 08:49:56 AM |
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On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:15:21 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't know Ted Haggard was pentecostal/charismatic (what's the
diff?) until several others did searches and said so.
That is more a difference of my personal observation since the early
'50's. When I was a teen there were these 'holy rollers' called
Pentecostals where the women wore long dresses, didn't shave their
legs, and had their hair in buns on the back of their heads. They
generally were of the lower economic classes from more rural
background and while quite sincere, they to my estimation were
biblically unlearned, emotionally unstable and easily led. They
claimed all the extraordinary gifts of the spirit of NT times. Later,
in parallell to the rise of and mixed with the New Age garbage, there
was an acceptance of pentecostal type thinking that began to enter
more mainline churches and affecting people with college degrees,
driving BMW's and Porches. In both the nutty New Agers and the
Charismatics there was this escape from reality into la la land where
emotions and mysticism become the ruling factor. As I say, this is
from personal observation and I'd not point to any encyclopedia as
giving like descriptions. It is how I meant the distinction about
Haggard. When I read the history of Ted Haggard I saw he came out of
the Pentecostalist background and then became successful (world's
standard) and became 'uptown' and a Charismatic to the point of
heading the NAE.
Gaius
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| User: "Phlogeus" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
19 Mar 2007 04:24:29 PM |
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In article <45fe8f72.4839008@news.east.cox.net>, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:15:21 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't know Ted Haggard was pentecostal/charismatic (what's the
diff?) until several others did searches and said so.
That is more a difference of my personal observation since the early
'50's. When I was a teen there were these 'holy rollers' called
Pentecostals where the women wore long dresses, didn't shave their
legs, and had their hair in buns on the back of their heads. They
generally were of the lower economic classes from more rural
background and while quite sincere, they to my estimation were
biblically unlearned, emotionally unstable and easily led. They
claimed all the extraordinary gifts of the spirit of NT times. Later,
in parallell to the rise of and mixed with the New Age garbage, there
was an acceptance of pentecostal type thinking that began to enter
more mainline churches and affecting people with college degrees,
driving BMW's and Porches. In both the nutty New Agers and the
Charismatics there was this escape from reality into la la land where
emotions and mysticism become the ruling factor.
The culprit - I fear was Alcoholics Anonymous which as part of its therapy
has the principle of "acceptance"
This became enwrapped with Fundamentalism when the partially recovered
alcoholic was pointed in the direction of mainstream churches
Desperate for miracles the churches claimed that AA was a modern one and
they then started to "produce" their own "miracles"
AA is based on the Oxford Groups - the precursors of the right wing
theological grouping known as "Moral Rearmament"
No doubt the founders of AA - Wilson and Smith meant well - but Wilson
suffered from Church guilt and Bible Belt thinking
Smith was a doctor who rejected Freud and Jung was in the background
fanning the flames a little
Recent analysis has cast doubt on AA's claims to have a higher than
average recovery/arresting of alcoholism rate - but for some people it has
proved a useful and life saving path
But I am sorry to say this but the effect of AA's philosophy and therapy
and of its sending half reformed alcoholics back to church has been
malignant of Christianity - and Christianity needs desperately (it may be
too late) to come to grips with this problem and not see drug and alcohol
therapy as a useful catchment area to increase the size of declining
congregations
If you have any doubt - perhaps take a closer look at the president himself!
The old joke was that AA was precisely the kind of organisation one might
expect run by drunks
So - increasingly - is the Christian Church!
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| User: "Disciple Gaius" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
19 Mar 2007 09:06:26 AM |
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On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:49:56 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:15:21 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't know Ted Haggard was pentecostal/charismatic (what's the
diff?) until several others did searches and said so.
That is more a difference of my personal observation since the early
'50's. When I was a teen there were these 'holy rollers' called
Pentecostals where the women wore long dresses, didn't shave their
legs, and had their hair in buns on the back of their heads. They
generally were of the lower economic classes from more rural
background and while quite sincere, they to my estimation were
biblically unlearned, emotionally unstable and easily led. They
claimed all the extraordinary gifts of the spirit of NT times. Later,
in parallell to the rise of and mixed with the New Age garbage, there
was an acceptance of pentecostal type thinking that began to enter
more mainline churches and affecting people with college degrees,
driving BMW's and Porches. In both the nutty New Agers and the
Charismatics there was this escape from reality into la la land where
emotions and mysticism become the ruling factor. As I say, this is
from personal observation and I'd not point to any encyclopedia as
giving like descriptions. It is how I meant the distinction about
Haggard. When I read the history of Ted Haggard I saw he came out of
the Pentecostalist background and then became successful (world's
standard) and became 'uptown' and a Charismatic to the point of
heading the NAE.
Gaius
Yeah, yeah... I dropped the "s"... it is "Porsches"...
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
21 Mar 2007 01:42:14 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:06:26 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:49:56 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:15:21 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't know Ted Haggard was pentecostal/charismatic (what's the
diff?) until several others did searches and said so.
That is more a difference of my personal observation since the early
'50's. When I was a teen there were these 'holy rollers' called
Pentecostals where the women wore long dresses, didn't shave their
legs, and had their hair in buns on the back of their heads. They
generally were of the lower economic classes from more rural
background and while quite sincere, they to my estimation were
biblically unlearned, emotionally unstable and easily led. They
claimed all the extraordinary gifts of the spirit of NT times. Later,
in parallell to the rise of and mixed with the New Age garbage, there
was an acceptance of pentecostal type thinking that began to enter
more mainline churches and affecting people with college degrees,
driving BMW's and Porches. In both the nutty New Agers and the
Charismatics there was this escape from reality into la la land where
emotions and mysticism become the ruling factor. As I say, this is
from personal observation and I'd not point to any encyclopedia as
giving like descriptions. It is how I meant the distinction about
Haggard. When I read the history of Ted Haggard I saw he came out of
the Pentecostalist background and then became successful (world's
standard) and became 'uptown' and a Charismatic to the point of
heading the NAE.
Gaius
Yeah, yeah... I dropped the "s"... it is "Porsches"...
???
[ deep frown ]
You mean, it's not "Porches"? Like I always thought it was the
same word as the thing on the front / side / back of your house!
[ deep frown ]
;-)
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| User: "Disciple Gaius" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
21 Mar 2007 02:03:40 PM |
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On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:42:14 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
???
[ deep frown ]
You mean, it's not "Porches"? Like I always thought it was the
same word as the thing on the front / side / back of your house!
[ deep frown ]
;-)
You know how you must use a premptive strike on your own mistake
before some of the crazies get a chance to point out a typo.
Gaius
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
22 Mar 2007 07:23:27 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:03:40 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:42:14 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
???
[ deep frown ]
You mean, it's not "Porches"? Like I always thought it was the
same word as the thing on the front / side / back of your house!
[ deep frown ]
;-)
You know how you must use a premptive strike on your own mistake
before some of the crazies get a chance to point out a typo.
Gaius
:-)
Yes. I DO get that.
But, "good luck with that" in here!
Regards, mate!
john w
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
21 Mar 2007 01:40:45 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:49:56 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:15:21 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I didn't know Ted Haggard was pentecostal/charismatic (what's the
diff?) until several others did searches and said so.
That is more a difference of my personal observation since the early
'50's. When I was a teen there were these 'holy rollers' called
Pentecostals where the women wore long dresses, didn't shave their
legs, and had their hair in buns on the back of their heads. They
generally were of the lower economic classes from more rural
background and while quite sincere, they to my estimation were
biblically unlearned, emotionally unstable and easily led. They
claimed all the extraordinary gifts of the spirit of NT times. Later,
in parallell to the rise of and mixed with the New Age garbage, there
was an acceptance of pentecostal type thinking that began to enter
more mainline churches and affecting people with college degrees,
driving BMW's and Porches. In both the nutty New Agers and the
Charismatics there was this escape from reality into la la land where
emotions and mysticism become the ruling factor. As I say, this is
from personal observation and I'd not point to any encyclopedia as
giving like descriptions. It is how I meant the distinction about
Haggard. When I read the history of Ted Haggard I saw he came out of
the Pentecostalist background and then became successful (world's
standard) and became 'uptown' and a Charismatic to the point of
heading the NAE.
Gaius
Frankly ( I almost said, "sorry", but I'm not)
The men of the cloth who I pay attention to and respect all have Dr
in front of their names and multiple Ph D, Th D, D D, M Div s after
their names.
Ted Haggard just doesn't "measure up" in my book.
That he was the President of the NAE says a lot (to me) about how far
the NAE has slid downhill in the 50 + years I've been around.
john w
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| User: "Phlogeus" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
27 Mar 2007 12:05:58 AM |
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In article <gnk103tsmn1iketgca7bplqb301r606s2e@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw<no>@yahoo.com> wrote:
Frankly ( I almost said, "sorry", but I'm not)
The men of the cloth who I pay attention to and respect all have Dr
in front of their names and multiple Ph D, Th D, D D, M Div s after
their names.
Ted Haggard just doesn't "measure up" in my book.
That he was the President of the NAE says a lot (to me) about how far
the NAE has slid downhill in the 50 + years I've been around.
looks like Jesus is out then
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| User: "Disciple Gaius" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
21 Mar 2007 02:18:57 PM |
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On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:40:45 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Frankly ( I almost said, "sorry", but I'm not)
The men of the cloth who I pay attention to and respect all have Dr
in front of their names and multiple Ph D, Th D, D D, M Div s after
their names.
Ted Haggard just doesn't "measure up" in my book.
That he was the President of the NAE says a lot (to me) about how far
the NAE has slid downhill in the 50 + years I've been around.
john w
This is why I have become very cautious of things labeled
"evangelical", or "fundamental[ist]". I just posted 3 articles on John
10:30 "The Father and I are one". The NASB has in the margin regarding
that verse: "Lit., (neuter) a 'unity'; or, 'one essence'." While
there are very good men, A.T. Robertson, for example who hold to that
viewpoint,other good men disagree on the grammar. In the NASB it seems
to be translators injecting their 'traditional orthodoxy' into the
text; rather than letting the text define orthodoxy. This is why I do
not include 'evangelical' translations among my chosen 4 translations
to use as my standards. Unless one wishes to view the ASV as
'evangelical'. It was before 'fundamentalism' though, so I'm okay with
it. :-)
Gaius
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
22 Mar 2007 07:27:14 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:18:57 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:40:45 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Frankly ( I almost said, "sorry", but I'm not)
The men of the cloth who I pay attention to and respect all have Dr
in front of their names and multiple Ph D, Th D, D D, M Div s after
their names.
Ted Haggard just doesn't "measure up" in my book.
That he was the President of the NAE says a lot (to me) about how far
the NAE has slid downhill in the 50 + years I've been around.
john w
This is why I have become very cautious of things labeled
"evangelical", or "fundamental[ist]". I just posted 3 articles on John
10:30 "The Father and I are one". The NASB has in the margin regarding
that verse: "Lit., (neuter) a 'unity'; or, 'one essence'." While
there are very good men, A.T. Robertson, for example who hold to that
viewpoint,other good men disagree on the grammar. In the NASB it seems
to be translators injecting their 'traditional orthodoxy' into the
text; rather than letting the text define orthodoxy. This is why I do
not include 'evangelical' translations among my chosen 4 translations
to use as my standards. Unless one wishes to view the ASV as
'evangelical'. It was before 'fundamentalism' though, so I'm okay with
it. :-)
Gaius
Ah! I'd be curious which 4 translations you like best. When I had an
NASB, I liked it very much. As did my seminary profs. I bought one
when it was first released-- long since stolen.
God bless,
john w
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| User: "Disciple Gaius" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
22 Mar 2007 12:04:46 PM |
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On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:27:14 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Ah! I'd be curious which 4 translations you like best. When I had an
NASB, I liked it very much. As did my seminary profs. I bought one
when it was first released-- long since stolen.
God bless,
john w
It may be a lot like automobile preference, but here are my four and
my 'why'.
ASV, 1901 - "the rock of biblical honesty" as it has been called. I
like it because it updated from the KJV/RV to an American version with
a good reputation as solid, word for word translation. I like the full
translator's footnotes to alert to translating questions. In hard copy
it is hard to find. I bought mine from Star Bible, a Church of Christ
publishing house.
NRSV, 1989 - This is my modern English, word for word, and I keep in
mind it is by the liberal NCC. But, I find it very scholarly and again
with footnotes about translating questions. I do find myself often
preferring the footnote over the choice in the text. But, I find it
pretty honest while being by liberals.
GNT, 1992 - This is an updated edition with corrections of the old
Good News Bible, or TEV. I am coming in recent years to appreciate the
phrase for phrase, or "dynamic equivalence" approach to translation. I
recognize it is by the American Bible Society, which has produced
translations for many years for peoples around the world. They are
true professionals in trying to get the meaning of the Greek/Hebrew of
Bible times across to those in this age.
REB, 1989 - This is Britain's dynamic equivalence version, which may
be a bit more word for word than the GNT; but, it gives me input from
across the pond from their scholarship. Frankly, from a reading and
pleasant to the mind read, I prefer it over the other three.
Let me illustrate how I use the 4. I posted an article about the
supposed contradiction between Acts 9:7 and 22:9. In my four versions
there is agreement in the text between the two passages; "hear",
"voice", "not hear", "voice". So I chose to argue from the English
rather than get into the fine distinctions in the Greek, from my Greek
scholars. If my 4 translations of choice were in agreement on "hear"
and "voice"; my answer lay in the varied meanings in the English
between "hear" and "voice". Considering that the Greek is koine, "used
in the homes and marketplace" of the time; I chose to compare how we
use our English commonly in the home and the markeplace. The
appearance of contradiction clearly disappears in how we use the two
English terms. But, heretics who insist on seeing a contradiction,
even by redefining "contradiction", wanted to see Greek. So, in the
Greek the approach used in the English found agreement. Scholars
explain it and 2 of my 4 Grk-Eng Interlinear's agree it is "hear"
"sound" in Acts 9:7.
When I find vast difference between my 4 versions of choice, I resort
to Greek-English Interlinear translations in the literal Greek and dig
into the deeper study to determine for myself to the best of my
ability.
Gaius
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
27 Mar 2007 01:54:58 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:04:46 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:27:14 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Ah! I'd be curious which 4 translations you like best. When I had an
NASB, I liked it very much. As did my seminary profs. I bought one
when it was first released-- long since stolen.
God bless,
john w
It may be a lot like automobile preference, but here are my four and
my 'why'.
ASV, 1901 - "the rock of biblical honesty" as it has been called. I
like it because it updated from the KJV/RV to an American version with
a good reputation as solid, word for word translation. I like the full
translator's footnotes to alert to translating questions. In hard copy
it is hard to find. I bought mine from Star Bible, a Church of Christ
publishing house.
NRSV, 1989 - This is my modern English, word for word, and I keep in
mind it is by the liberal NCC. But, I find it very scholarly and again
with footnotes about translating questions. I do find myself often
preferring the footnote over the choice in the text. But, I find it
pretty honest while being by liberals.
GNT, 1992 - This is an updated edition with corrections of the old
Good News Bible, or TEV. I am coming in recent years to appreciate the
phrase for phrase, or "dynamic equivalence" approach to translation. I
recognize it is by the American Bible Society, which has produced
translations for many years for peoples around the world. They are
true professionals in trying to get the meaning of the Greek/Hebrew of
Bible times across to those in this age.
REB, 1989 - This is Britain's dynamic equivalence version, which may
be a bit more word for word than the GNT; but, it gives me input from
across the pond from their scholarship. Frankly, from a reading and
pleasant to the mind read, I prefer it over the other three.
Let me illustrate how I use the 4. I posted an article about the
supposed contradiction between Acts 9:7 and 22:9. In my four versions
there is agreement in the text between the two passages; "hear",
"voice", "not hear", "voice". So I chose to argue from the English
rather than get into the fine distinctions in the Greek, from my Greek
scholars. If my 4 translations of choice were in agreement on "hear"
and "voice"; my answer lay in the varied meanings in the English
between "hear" and "voice". Considering that the Greek is koine, "used
in the homes and marketplace" of the time; I chose to compare how we
use our English commonly in the home and the markeplace. The
appearance of contradiction clearly disappears in how we use the two
English terms. But, heretics who insist on seeing a contradiction,
even by redefining "contradiction", wanted to see Greek. So, in the
Greek the approach used in the English found agreement. Scholars
explain it and 2 of my 4 Grk-Eng Interlinear's agree it is "hear"
"sound" in Acts 9:7.
When I find vast difference between my 4 versions of choice, I resort
to Greek-English Interlinear translations in the literal Greek and dig
into the deeper study to determine for myself to the best of my
ability.
Gaius
Thanks! I appreciate your analysis.
God bless!
john w
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| User: "ujb" |
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| Title: Re: True miracles versus charismatic and pentecostalist lies |
19 Mar 2007 08:34:46 AM |
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john w <johnw wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:03:22 GMT, (Disciple Gaius)
wrote:
=A9 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post=
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:36:58 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I've seen and heard similar.
One thing the pretenders forget / ignore is that Jesus told the leper=
s
"Go and present yourselves to the elders (to prove you have been
healed and to let the entire community know it)."
The many who rose from the grave the moment Jesus died -- they also
presented themselves to the elders as proof of the miracle.
When the pretenders balk at proving their miracles and healings by
presenting themselves to authorities (doctors, the media, the
community at large), they seem to believe they have much to hide (lik=
e
reality)
john w
I fear the state of the church today is troubled. When Ted Haggard hit=
the news I went to google to find out who this person was for I'd
never heard the name. I learned he is basically charismatic and yet he=
was President of the National Association of Evangelicals. I went and
checked the membership of that organization and was dumbfounded at the=
groups listed. I will NEVER refer to myself as "evangelical" after
seeing what the term must mean now to people in general.
Gaius
=20
I didn't know Ted Haggard was pentecostal/charismatic (what's the
diff?) until several others did searches and said so.
=20
I myself have gone to a number of web pages of Christian leadership I
have trusted for YEARS. When I see the "links" pages and the "fringe"
they associate with, it turns my stomach.
Now this really begs a question! Oh daddy, what other than fringe Christi=
an leaders=20
turns the stomach of an author of porn?
suny
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