Trying to Understand Revelation

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"stone"
Date:	04 Nov 2004 12:03:41 PM
Object:	Trying to Understand Revelation

I worked in a warehouse and for seven years I listened to the King James
Bible, on tape, all day long with a
small tape player in my pocket and an ear phone in my ear. I covered the
whole new testament in about 4
days and the whole old testament in about 3 and a half weeks. I also
listened to it at home. After going through the book of Revelation, around
100 times (more or less) I started to understand it. The book of Revelation
seems to be a collection of visions that are not given in proper
chronological order. Example: A vision given at the beginning of the book
might show things that happen in the beginning, middle and end of the
tribulation period, and this vision ends. The following vision that is
recorded might contain things only about the first 31/2 years of the
tribulation period, then the vision ends. This can be followed by a vision
that might contain things about only the last 31/2 years of the tribulation
period, then the vision ends. This might be followed by a vision containing
things at the beginning, middle and end of the tribulation period, then the
vision ends. There may also be brief references to things that already
happened in the past. I am trying to give you an example of what I mean by
writing this. You need to compare all of the scriptures in Revelation with
one another to figure out the proper order that the events will happen.
Things stated near the end of the book might refer to things that will
happen at the beginning of the tribulation period. Things stated in the
middle of the book might refer to things that will happen at the end of the
tribulation period. Do you see what I am trying to say? This is why people
have so much trouble understanding the book of Revelation.
When I tried to understand it as if everything was given in the
chronological order that it is supposed to
happen, it always seemed to have contradictions. Therefore, I believe that
this is not the proper way to understand it.
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User: "R. Berry"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	05 Nov 2004 09:02:50 AM

"stone" wrote in message >
After going through the book of Revelation, around

100 times (more or less) I started to understand it. The book of

Revelation

seems to be a collection of visions that are not given in proper
chronological order.

Stone, buddy:
You should also read the Apocalypse of Peter, the Apocalypse of Paul, the
Apocalypse of Thomas. Maybe throw in the Apocalypse of Ezra and the
Apocalypse of Baruch.
It would give you a feel for the idea of an apocalypse, and the many ideas
of how the end time would be.
Then rather than waste time, trying to figure out the chronology of
something you will never see, you could just pick an end time to fit your
purpose.
Never limit yourself. Keep learning.
Smile.
.

User: "Mark T"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	05 Nov 2004 05:47:35 PM

"R. Berry" wrote:

After going through the book of Revelation, around

100 times (more or less) I started to understand it. The book of

Revelation

seems to be a collection of visions that are not given in proper
chronological order.

Stone, buddy:

You should also read the Apocalypse of Peter, the Apocalypse of Paul, the
Apocalypse of Thomas. Maybe throw in the Apocalypse of Ezra and the
Apocalypse of Baruch.

It would give you a feel for the idea of an apocalypse, and the many ideas
of how the end time would be.

Then rather than waste time, trying to figure out the chronology of
something you will never see, you could just pick an end time to fit your
purpose.

Never limit yourself. Keep learning.

Smile.

You are trying to get a fundamentalist to think. This is attempting a minor
miracle!
The books mentioned above (and more) can be found at
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/.
The Apocalypse of Peter was almost put in the bible instead of John's
revelation.
--
#################################################
My Testimony at
http://www.alt-christianlife.com/testimonials/mark_tindall.htm
***********************************************************
'As rare as a Fundamentalist who loves his enemy.
#################################################
.... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist '... an assurance that those
who do not share their religious viewpoint are not really true Christians at
all.' - Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
#################################################
.

User: "moshe"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	05 Nov 2004 09:49:48 PM

.....

You are trying to get a fundamentalist to think. This is attempting a minor
miracle!

**********
By definition, a fundamentalist remains faithful to the fundamentals of the
faith.
A non-fundamentalist abandons the fundamentals of the faith.
Any idiot can fail to see and so not believe.
It takes insight and courage to believe and to put your life on the line.
- moshe
.

User: "stone"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	06 Nov 2004 08:34:13 PM

Mark T wrote in message <418c1119$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>...

"R. Berry" wrote:

After going through the book of Revelation, around

100 times (more or less) I started to understand it. The book of

Revelation

seems to be a collection of visions that are not given in proper
chronological order.

ideas

of how the end time would be.

Then rather than waste time, trying to figure out the chronology of
something you will never see, you could just pick an end time to fit your
purpose.

Never limit yourself. Keep learning.

Smile.

You are trying to get a fundamentalist to think. This is attempting a

minor

miracle!

The books mentioned above (and more) can be found at
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/.

The Apocalypse of Peter was almost put in the bible instead of John's
revelation.

--
#################################################
My Testimony at
http://www.alt-christianlife.com/testimonials/mark_tindall.htm

***********************************************************

'As rare as a Fundamentalist who loves his enemy.

#################################################
... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist '... an assurance that those
who do not share their religious viewpoint are not really true Christians

all.' - Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
#################################################

The religious viewpoint of the fundamentalist is to believe the fundamentals
of the Christian faith as stated in the New Testament. To be a Christian you
must first be a believer. That assurance Cameron spoke of has the New
Testament to back it up.
Definition of fundamentalist:
A fundamentalist believes in these fundamental doctrines of the Christian
faith:
The infallibillity and literal truth of the Bible as God's inspired Word.
[This can only apply to the real Bible, since the market is flooded with
fake modern Bible versions that have had the words changed. The real Bible
in English is the King James Version.]
The Virgin Birth and complete Deity of Jesus Christ.
The pysical ressurection of Christ and all dead.
The atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world, that Jesus did when He was
crucified.
The Second coming of Christ in bodily form.
Fundamentalists are the real Bible believing Christians.
To be a Christian you must be a believer.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.
For salvation, belief in the Deity of Christ, the resurection of Him from
the dead and the atonement He made for the sins of the world are essential.
If you don't really believe these things, you are not a Christian. - If you
don't become a real Christian, you will go to hell to suffer forever.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned. Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with
thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath
raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who
hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the
covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done
despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[The Blood of Jesus, the blood of the covenant, was for the atonement for
sin. His blood is different from the blood of other men in that respect.
Jesus died for the sins of the world and not for His own sins, because He
never committed any sins. Believe in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, and
repent of practicing sin and God will forgive your sins, because Jesus died
to pay the penalty for your sins, as an atoneing sacrifice on the cross.]
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User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	30 May 2005 08:25:28 AM

"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:418d89a5_5@news1.uncensored-news.com...

Mark T wrote in message <418c1119$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>...

"R. Berry" wrote:

<snip>

#################################################
... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist '... an assurance that those
who do not share their religious viewpoint are not really true Christians

all.' - Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
#################################################

LOL, one day in 1611, the only true, the first and original Bible fell from
the sky, never any debates as concerning what was/is scripture, God decided,
and just dropped it from the sky !
All other texts, including the Greek, Aramic, and Hebrew texts, aren't truly
"God's Word"...
Everyone knows that God only speaks in King James English
Jeeez
<snipped the rest, which is most likely as far outside of reality, as the
above>
.

User: "Martureo"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	30 May 2005 07:33:21 PM

"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:119m4fh8fru4605@corp.supernews.com...

"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:418d89a5_5@news1.uncensored-news.com...

Mark T wrote in message <418c1119$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>...

"R. Berry" wrote:

<snip>

#################################################
... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist '... an assurance that
those
who do not share their religious viewpoint are not really true Christians

all.' - Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
#################################################

LOL, one day in 1611, the only true, the first and original Bible fell
from the sky, never any debates as concerning what was/is scripture, God
decided, and just dropped it from the sky !
All other texts, including the Greek, Aramic, and Hebrew texts, aren't
truly "God's Word"...
Everyone knows that God only speaks in King James English

Jeeez

<snipped the rest, which is most likely as far outside of reality, as the
above>

I am looking for a quote, and the name of the Queen that quoted something
like this to King James about his Bible Translation. "Why have you not
translated each word exactly the same way all the way through, the way some
learned man somewhere would do?"
My research Library was destroyed, so I no longer have the Books to look it
up and get it exact, but I think the quote was made in the Preface of "The
Readers Bible," where they were telling how the Scholars made this
translation bearing King James' name, as a birthday present. But then
because of the ridicule that he got for the translation, he made it as
difficult as possible for people to learn Hebrew or Greek or Latin in his
Kingdom, because he did not want people to see how lousy of translation it
really was.
Could any of you get me a copy of the Preface of "The Readers Bible"?
In service of God and Country
Joseph
.

User: "stone"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	01 Jun 2005 10:48:31 PM

Martureo wrote in message ...

"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:119m4fh8fru4605@corp.supernews.com...

"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:418d89a5_5@news1.uncensored-news.com...

Mark T wrote in message <418c1119$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>...

"R. Berry" wrote:

<snip>

#################################################
... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist '

Guess What. James Barr's book is not scripture. James Barr could be wrong.
Who is James Barr? Who does he think he is?
Why consider him an authority on this?
Throw his book in the garbage.
Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making
many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
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User: "stone"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	06 Nov 2004 08:25:51 PM

R. Berry wrote in message ...

"stone" wrote in message >

After going through the book of Revelation, around

100 times (more or less) I started to understand it. The book of

Revelation

seems to be a collection of visions that are not given in proper
chronological order.

Stone, buddy:

You should also read the Apocalypse of Peter, the Apocalypse of Paul, the
Apocalypse of Thomas. Maybe throw in the Apocalypse of Ezra and the
Apocalypse of Baruch.

Those books are not in the canon of the protestant bible. If those books
exist at all they are probably like the apocrypha and were rejected for that
reason. [ I suspect that you may have made up those book names, and the
books don't exist.] The gospel of Thomas is a forgery and probably comes
from the gnostic heresy in Alexandria Egypt. If there is an apocalypse of
Thomas it may come from the same gnostic heretics. The apochrypha as a whole
contains obvious fiction stories and inconsistencies. The revelation of John
is inspired by God and trustworthy. You just need to understand it right.
There are many forgeries and fake books; don't take everything at face
value.
Reasons why the apocrypha was rejected:
http://watch.pair.com/apocrypha.html
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm
What is the Apocrypha anyway?
The Apocrypha is a collection of uninspired, spurious books written by
various individuals. The Catholic religion considers these books as
scripture just like a Bible-believer believes that our 66 books are the word
of God, i.e., Genesis to Revelation. We are going to examine some verses
from the Apocrypha later in our discussion.
At the Council of Trent (1546) the Roman Catholic religion pronounced the
following apocryphal books sacred. They asserted that the apocryphal books
together with unwritten tradition are of God and are to be received and
venerated as the Word of God. So now you have the Bible, the Apocrypha and
Catholic Tradition as co-equal sources of truth for the Catholic. In
reality, the Bible is the last source of truth for Catholics. Catholic
doctrine comes primarily from tradition stuck together with a few Bible
names. In my reading of Catholic materials, I find notes like this: "You
have to keep the Bible in perspective." Catholics do not believe that the
Bible is God's complete revelation for man.
The Roman Catholic Apocrypha
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
First and Second Maccabees
Additions to Esther and Daniel
Apocryphal Books rejected by the Catholic Religion:
First and Second Esdras
Prayer of Manasses
Susanna*
*A reader says: "Susanna is in the Roman Catholic canon. It is Daniel 13."
Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible.
1. Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which
was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.
All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
2. None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
3. The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the
Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior
to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the
apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
4. The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the
first four centuries of the real Christian church (I'm certainly not talking
about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
5. The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the
"canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of
Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in
three different places.
6. The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as
prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken
from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:
Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:
2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a
sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they
might be delivered from sin.
Salvation by works:
Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh
atonement for sin.
Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms
doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.
Magic:
Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be
driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and
the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):
Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And
whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and
magical incantation.
8. No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old
Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
9. Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only
valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language,
opinions and history of the East.
Wasn't the Apocrypha in the King James?
The King James translators never considered the Apocrypha the word of God.
As books of some historical value, the Apocrypha was sandwiched between the
Old and New Testaments as an appendix of reference material. This followed
the format that Luther had used. Luther prefaced the Apocrypha with a
statement:
"Apocrypha--that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy
Scriputres, and yet are profitable and good to read."
King James Version Defended page 98.
In 1599, TWELVE YEARS BEFORE the King James Bible was published, King James
said this about the Apocrypha:
"As to the Apocriphe bookes, I OMIT THEM because I am no Papist (as I said
before)..."
King James Charles Stewart
Basilicon Doron, page 13
Not only this, but the sixth article of the Thirty-nine Articles of the
Church of England (1571 edition) states:
In the name of the Holy, we do vnderstande those canonical bookes of the
olde and newe Testament, of whose authoritie was never any doubt in the
Churche...
Now concerning the apocrypha it states,
And the other bookes, (as Hierome sayeth), the Churche doth reade for
example of life and instruction of manners: but yet doth it not applie them
to establish any doctrene [sic].
Philip Schaff, Creeds of Christendom. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1977,
Vol. III, pp. 489-491.
The Apocrypha began to be omitted from the Authorized Version in 1629.
Puritans and Presbyterians lobbied for the complete removal of the Apocrypha
from the Bible and in 1825 the British and Foreign Bible Society agreed.
From that time on, the Apocrypha has been eliminated from practically all
English Bibles--Catholic Bibles and some pulpit Bibles excepted.
Not even all Catholic "Church Fathers" believed the Apocrypha was scripture.
Not that this really means anything. The truth is not validated by the
false. Nevertheless, this may be of interest to some... Jerome (340-420)
rejected the Apocrypha:
"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does
not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and
Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative
confirmation of doctrine."
Jerome
Jerome's preface to the books of Solomon
According to Edward Hills in The King James Version Defended p. 98 other
famous Catholics with this viewpoint include Augustine (354-430 who at first
defended the Apocrypha as canonical), Pope Gregory the Great (540-604),
Cardinal Ximenes, and Cardinal Cajetan.
There are other spurious books.
These include the Pseudepigrapha which contains Enoch, Michael the
Archangel, and Jannes and Jambres. Many of these books falsely claim to have
been written by various Old Testament patriarchs. They were composed between
200 B.C. and 100 A.D. There are lots of these spurious books like The
Assumption of Moses, Apocalypse of Elijah, and Ascension of Isaiah.
Concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls, there may be some information in them that
parallels the Masoretic Text, but there are fables in them too. I went to
see the scrolls a few years ago with great expectation but found a bunch of
fables. The best defense against error in any form (fake Bibles and
religions) is a solid knowledge of your King James Bible. If you read it,
forgeries become readily apparent.

It would give you a feel for the idea of an apocalypse, and the many ideas
of how the end time would be.

Then rather than waste time, trying to figure out the chronology of
something you will never see, you could just pick an end time to fit your
purpose.

Never limit yourself. Keep learning.

Smile.

_______________________________________________________________________________
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User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	01 Jun 2005 03:40:41 PM

Read John 21:25
"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:418d87af_7@news1.uncensored-news.com...

R. Berry wrote in message ...

"stone" wrote in message >

After going through the book of Revelation, around

100 times (more or less) I started to understand it. The book of

Revelation

seems to be a collection of visions that are not given in proper
chronological order.

Stone, buddy:

You should also read the Apocalypse of Peter, the Apocalypse of Paul, the
Apocalypse of Thomas. Maybe throw in the Apocalypse of Ezra and the
Apocalypse of Baruch.

Those books are not in the canon of the protestant bible. If those books
exist at all they are probably like the apocrypha and were rejected for
that
reason. [ I suspect that you may have made up those book names, and the
books don't exist.] The gospel of Thomas is a forgery and probably comes
from the gnostic heresy in Alexandria Egypt. If there is an apocalypse of
Thomas it may come from the same gnostic heretics. The apochrypha as a
whole
contains obvious fiction stories and inconsistencies. The revelation of
John
is inspired by God and trustworthy. You just need to understand it right.
There are many forgeries and fake books; don't take everything at face
value.
Reasons why the apocrypha was rejected:

http://watch.pair.com/apocrypha.html

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm

What is the Apocrypha anyway?
The Apocrypha is a collection of uninspired, spurious books written by
various individuals. The Catholic religion considers these books as
scripture just like a Bible-believer believes that our 66 books are the
word
of God, i.e., Genesis to Revelation. We are going to examine some verses
from the Apocrypha later in our discussion.
At the Council of Trent (1546) the Roman Catholic religion pronounced the
following apocryphal books sacred. They asserted that the apocryphal books
together with unwritten tradition are of God and are to be received and
venerated as the Word of God. So now you have the Bible, the Apocrypha and
Catholic Tradition as co-equal sources of truth for the Catholic. In
reality, the Bible is the last source of truth for Catholics. Catholic
doctrine comes primarily from tradition stuck together with a few Bible
names. In my reading of Catholic materials, I find notes like this: "You
have to keep the Bible in perspective." Catholics do not believe that the
Bible is God's complete revelation for man.
The Roman Catholic Apocrypha
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
First and Second Maccabees
Additions to Esther and Daniel
Apocryphal Books rejected by the Catholic Religion:
First and Second Esdras
Prayer of Manasses
Susanna*
*A reader says: "Susanna is in the Roman Catholic canon. It is Daniel 13."
Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible.
1. Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language,
which
was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.
All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in
Latin.
2. None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
3. The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by
the
Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior
to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed
the
apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
4. The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during
the
first four centuries of the real Christian church (I'm certainly not
talking
about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
5. The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict
the
"canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of
Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in
three different places.
6. The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as
prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are
taken
from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:
Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:
2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a
sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they
might be delivered from sin.
Salvation by works:
Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh
atonement for sin.
Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms
doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.
Magic:
Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be
driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a
fish...and
the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):
Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And
whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and
magical incantation.
8. No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old
Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
9. Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only
valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language,
opinions and history of the East.
Wasn't the Apocrypha in the King James?
The King James translators never considered the Apocrypha the word of God.
As books of some historical value, the Apocrypha was sandwiched between
the
Old and New Testaments as an appendix of reference material. This followed
the format that Luther had used. Luther prefaced the Apocrypha with a
statement:
"Apocrypha--that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy
Scriputres, and yet are profitable and good to read."
King James Version Defended page 98.
In 1599, TWELVE YEARS BEFORE the King James Bible was published, King
James
said this about the Apocrypha:
"As to the Apocriphe bookes, I OMIT THEM because I am no Papist (as I said
before)..."
King James Charles Stewart
Basilicon Doron, page 13
Not only this, but the sixth article of the Thirty-nine Articles of the
Church of England (1571 edition) states:
In the name of the Holy, we do vnderstande those canonical bookes of the
olde and newe Testament, of whose authoritie was never any doubt in the
Churche...
Now concerning the apocrypha it states,
And the other bookes, (as Hierome sayeth), the Churche doth reade for
example of life and instruction of manners: but yet doth it not applie
them
to establish any doctrene [sic].
Philip Schaff, Creeds of Christendom. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House,
1977,
Vol. III, pp. 489-491.
The Apocrypha began to be omitted from the Authorized Version in 1629.
Puritans and Presbyterians lobbied for the complete removal of the
Apocrypha
from the Bible and in 1825 the British and Foreign Bible Society agreed.
From that time on, the Apocrypha has been eliminated from practically all
English Bibles--Catholic Bibles and some pulpit Bibles excepted.
Not even all Catholic "Church Fathers" believed the Apocrypha was
scripture.
Not that this really means anything. The truth is not validated by the
false. Nevertheless, this may be of interest to some... Jerome (340-420)
rejected the Apocrypha:
"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does
not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom
and
Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the
authoritative
confirmation of doctrine."
Jerome
Jerome's preface to the books of Solomon
According to Edward Hills in The King James Version Defended p. 98 other
famous Catholics with this viewpoint include Augustine (354-430 who at
first
defended the Apocrypha as canonical), Pope Gregory the Great (540-604),
Cardinal Ximenes, and Cardinal Cajetan.
There are other spurious books.
These include the Pseudepigrapha which contains Enoch, Michael the
Archangel, and Jannes and Jambres. Many of these books falsely claim to
have
been written by various Old Testament patriarchs. They were composed
between
200 B.C. and 100 A.D. There are lots of these spurious books like The
Assumption of Moses, Apocalypse of Elijah, and Ascension of Isaiah.
Concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls, there may be some information in them
that
parallels the Masoretic Text, but there are fables in them too. I went to
see the scrolls a few years ago with great expectation but found a bunch
of
fables. The best defense against error in any form (fake Bibles and
religions) is a solid knowledge of your King James Bible. If you read it,
forgeries become readily apparent.

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User: "Martureo"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	02 Jun 2005 12:03:26 AM

"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:119s6nlfpt1s456@corp.supernews.com...

Read John 21:25

"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:418d87af_7@news1.uncensored-news.com...

Concerning the Apocrypha, Judas Macabre killed a man of Israel named Joseph
in the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and claimed he was Syrian, Why? The
Macabeans were of the Southern Kingdom of Judah, and were trying to prophecy
that the inheritance of the kingdom would not be given to the heir by
birthright of the house of Israel, the house of Joseph. The Book of Daniel
in our English Bibles are not complete. The Book had three different
Languages in it originally, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. The Greek portion
was a response against the acts of the Macabeans who had written their
prophecy in Greek, because many among the Northern tribes of Israel spoke
Greek. But those who made up the cannon, not realizing this, removed the
section of Daniel, where the prophet says in Greek, "No, the Kingdom will
not be given to the Macabeans!"
In the 1st century, Paul taught at a school in Antioch. A school opened up
in Alexandria Egypt which was in opposition to Paul's teaching, and was on
the side of the Macabeans. The people in Alexandria made hand written
counterfeits of all the Scriptures Texts including Paul's epistles and the
Apocrypha, and they deliberately twisted them to document their position
against Paul. Paul recorded a statement against Alexandria in his writings,
that is not accurately translated in English. In 2 Timothy 4:13-14 "The
cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee,
and the books, but especially the parchments. Alexander the coppersmith did
me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:"
In connection with the parchments Paul needed, he writes of "Alexandria"
not "Alexander" in the text. The word "coppersmith" is a mistranslation, it
does not refer to a profession, it is the word for "Tin Smith."
Counterfeiters would use alloys with a high concentration of tin to
counterfeit "silver coins," so they coined "tin smith" to refer to anyone
who was trying to fool someone, like we could say, "he is a forger," and it
has nothing to do with occupation of medal working. The Devil's Stone, is
also refered to as a "Stone of tin," in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures.
"Him and His" in 2 Timothy 4:14 are both plural in some texts.
In service of God and Country
Joseph
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	02 Jun 2005 05:21:48 AM

"Martureo" <Martureo@JosephsBusiness.com> wrote in message
news:yqwne.5434$lI2.2123@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...

"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:119s6nlfpt1s456@corp.supernews.com...

Read John 21:25

"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:418d87af_7@news1.uncensored-news.com...

Concerning the Apocrypha, Judas Macabre killed a man of Israel named
Joseph in the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and claimed he was Syrian, Why?
The Macabeans were of the Southern Kingdom of Judah, and were trying to
prophecy that the inheritance of the kingdom would not be given to the
heir by birthright of the house of Israel, the house of Joseph. The Book
of Daniel in our English Bibles are not complete. The Book had three
different Languages in it originally, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. The
Greek portion was a response against the acts of the Macabeans who had
written their prophecy in Greek, because many among the Northern tribes of
Israel spoke Greek. But those who made up the cannon, not realizing this,
removed the section of Daniel, where the prophet says in Greek, "No, the
Kingdom will not be given to the Macabeans!"

In the 1st century, Paul taught at a school in Antioch. A school opened up
in Alexandria Egypt which was in opposition to Paul's teaching, and was on
the side of the Macabeans. The people in Alexandria made hand written
counterfeits of all the Scriptures Texts including Paul's epistles and the
Apocrypha, and they deliberately twisted them to document their position
against Paul. Paul recorded a statement against Alexandria in his
writings, that is not accurately translated in English. In 2 Timothy
4:13-14 "The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest,
bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. Alexander
the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his
works:"
In connection with the parchments Paul needed, he writes of "Alexandria"
not "Alexander" in the text. The word "coppersmith" is a mistranslation,
it does not refer to a profession, it is the word for "Tin Smith."
Counterfeiters would use alloys with a high concentration of tin to
counterfeit "silver coins," so they coined "tin smith" to refer to anyone
who was trying to fool someone, like we could say, "he is a forger," and
it has nothing to do with occupation of medal working. The Devil's Stone,
is also refered to as a "Stone of tin," in the Hebrew and Greek
Scriptures. "Him and His" in 2 Timothy 4:14 are both plural in some
texts.
In service of God and Country
Joseph

What is the source of this information?
Ike
.

User: "Martureo"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	04 Jun 2005 12:12:26 PM

"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3uqdnVRaO6QhQAPfRVn-tg@comcast.com...

"Martureo" <Martureo@JosephsBusiness.com> wrote in message
news:yqwne.5434$lI2.2123@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...

"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:119s6nlfpt1s456@corp.supernews.com...

Read John 21:25

"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:418d87af_7@news1.uncensored-news.com...

Concerning the Apocrypha, Judas Macabre killed a man of Israel named
Joseph in the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and claimed he was Syrian, Why?
The Macabeans were of the Southern Kingdom of Judah, and were trying to
prophecy that the inheritance of the kingdom would not be given to the
heir by birthright of the house of Israel, the house of Joseph. The Book
of Daniel in our English Bibles are not complete. The Book had three
different Languages in it originally, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. The
Greek portion was a response against the acts of the Macabeans who had
written their prophecy in Greek, because many among the Northern tribes
of Israel spoke Greek. But those who made up the cannon, not realizing
this, removed the section of Daniel, where the prophet says in Greek,
"No, the Kingdom will not be given to the Macabeans!"

In the 1st century, Paul taught at a school in Antioch. A school opened
up in Alexandria Egypt which was in opposition to Paul's teaching, and
was on the side of the Macabeans. The people in Alexandria made hand
written counterfeits of all the Scriptures Texts including Paul's
epistles and the Apocrypha, and they deliberately twisted them to
document their position against Paul. Paul recorded a statement against
Alexandria in his writings, that is not accurately translated in
English. In 2 Timothy 4:13-14 "The cloke that I left at Troas with
Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially
the parchments. Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord
reward him according to his works:"
In connection with the parchments Paul needed, he writes of "Alexandria"
not "Alexander" in the text. The word "coppersmith" is a mistranslation,
it does not refer to a profession, it is the word for "Tin Smith."
Counterfeiters would use alloys with a high concentration of tin to
counterfeit "silver coins," so they coined "tin smith" to refer to anyone
who was trying to fool someone, like we could say, "he is a forger," and
it has nothing to do with occupation of medal working. The Devil's Stone,
is also refered to as a "Stone of tin," in the Hebrew and Greek
Scriptures. "Him and His" in 2 Timothy 4:14 are both plural in some
texts.
In service of God and Country
Joseph

What is the source of this information?

Ike

Different books that I read at the University of Manchester, Manchester
England, and from other places. And by comparing the copies of the
Alexandrine manuscripts and the copies of the Byzantine manuscripts with
each other and the Aramaic manuscripts there at the University.
In service of God and Country
Joseph
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	01 Jun 2005 04:42:21 PM

Sorry about the piggybacking.

"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:418d87af_7@news1.uncensored-news.com...

After going through the book of Revelation, around

100 times (more or less) I started to understand it. The book of

Revelation

seems to be a collection of visions that are not given in proper
chronological order.

Revelation is written with three types of sections (i.e. it is triune).
There is the testimony of Jesus Christ, which are the seven letters to the
churches.
There is the Word of God, which is the chronological scroll (the seals, the
trumpets, and the vials) that runs throughout the book.
There are the seven things that John saw, which are supplemental visions
scattered throughout the chronology.
See if this analysis of the structure helps you make a bit more sense of it.
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
.

User: "Roy Mock"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	06 Nov 2004 01:29:03 AM

"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:418a6efd_7@news1.uncensored-news.com...

I worked in a warehouse and for seven years I listened to the King James
Bible, on tape, all day long with a
small tape player in my pocket and an ear phone in my ear. I covered the
whole new testament in about 4
days and the whole old testament in about 3 and a half weeks. I also
listened to it at home. After going through the book of Revelation, around
100 times (more or less) I started to understand it. The book of
Revelation
seems to be a collection of visions that are not given in proper
chronological order. Example: A vision given at the beginning of the
book
might show things that happen in the beginning, middle and end of the
tribulation period, and this vision ends. The following vision that is
recorded might contain things only about the first 31/2 years of the
tribulation period, then the vision ends. This can be followed by a
vision
that might contain things about only the last 31/2 years of the
tribulation
period, then the vision ends. This might be followed by a vision
containing
things at the beginning, middle and end of the tribulation period, then
the
vision ends. There may also be brief references to things that already
happened in the past. I am trying to give you an example of what I mean
by
writing this. You need to compare all of the scriptures in Revelation
with
one another to figure out the proper order that the events will happen.
Things stated near the end of the book might refer to things that will
happen at the beginning of the tribul ationperiod.Thingsstatedinthe
middle of the book might refer to things that will happen at the end of
the
tribulation period. Do you see what I am trying to say? This is why
people
have so much trouble understanding the book of Revelation.
When I tried to understand it as if everything was given in the
chronological order that it is supposed to
happen, it always seemed to have contradictions. Therefore, I believe that
this is not the proper way to understand it.

The explanation that makes best sense to me is this: It is a literary genre
common of the period and draws on imagery and allusion to convey its
message. It would make more sense to the NT reader than to us today. For
example, I have no chance understanding grid-iron since I don't have an
insight in the rules nor jargon the commentators use.
I wouldn't get bogged down about the finer details for most of the
revelation. The big picture provide enough insight of things to come.
Pivotal moments appear to be revisited or expressed in different terms -
like watching different camera angles of the same football moment - or
adding layering upon layer to build up a picture.
I'd be hopeless in trying to explain electricity to a native tribesman in
the deep forests of South America. John is trying to convey indescribable
heavenly things in familiar earthly terms. Savour the imageries as we wait
the Day.
Cheers.
.

User: "psalmsmith"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	04 Nov 2004 03:41:24 PM

In article <418a6efd_7@news1.uncensored-news.com>,
"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote:

No, the Revelation is not in chronological order as we know it, but the
order of time is key to it's understanding.
The way I understand it, is that the seven letters to the seven churches
is the primary object being described, and then that singular
seven-sided object, is expanded out through the rest of the book in
tesseract (four dimensions).
Of course, that description is in fact simpler than the reality of what
the Revelation actually is, nevertheless for /me/ it is the best
description that can be put into (relatively) simple words.
What do I mean? Instead of considering the seven letters for a moment,
consider instead a simple cube. A cube is a three dimensional object
having length, width, and depth. A cube can be /tesseracted/ by adding
a fourth dimension, which is generally considered to be 'time.'
Several attempts have been made to depict a "four dimensional cube" on
flat (2D) paper or in volume (3D) space. These depictions are called
'tesseracts.' In 1955, Salvador Dal� actually depicted Jesus Christ
being crucified atop a tesseract in an attempt to convey how this action
transcends our conventional understanding of space and time.
But I personally believe that the Revelation uses the seven letters to
describe the plenary oblect -- i.e. a seven-sided solid (as opposed to a
cube's six sides) which has then been /teseracted/ across the remaining
pages of the Revelation itself.
.

User: "-GenesisLetters"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	06 Nov 2004 03:38:07 AM

psalmsmith <psalmsmith@blyahoook.com> wrote in message news:<psalmsmith-72C06E.16421904112004@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com>...

What do I mean? Instead of considering the seven letters for a moment,
consider instead a simple cube. A cube is a three dimensional object
having length, width, and depth. A cube can be /tesseracted/ by adding
a fourth dimension, which is generally considered to be 'time.'

To: psalmsmith
A nice description.... very close.
The four visions of the book are in the form known as an ennead. We
today, might call it a type of matrix. The four major stories of
Genesis (the 7 days - Noah) are in the same form. The ennead form was
'the way it was done' for that type of literature at the time in those
cultures at the time. Egypt, Mesopatainia (sp) etc..
Think of it this way... when you sit to write a letter - you actually
follow a form (Dear so and so, followed by a little banter - then to
the subject - and ending with so banter about the future, and then a
closing) or if you were to write an article you should follow the form
of an article... a book has a form... a historical record has a
form... we are all so used to these forms that we really do not thing
about them.
John's book is a prophetic book (insights into high things) and
actually has nothing to do with predicting future events (most will
disagree with me on that - no matter).
The seven letters are a trace of the history of Israel from Adam to
the coming of Christ. The seal repeat that under a bit diffrent
imagry, as do the trumpets and then the bowls. Each vision expands the
preceding vision by carrying over each of the first seven subjects (in
each letter).
Of course these were not written for you and I, they were written by a
Jew to be read by other Jews - and so the history of Israel is given
under the imagry so familiar and proper to them (Torah and Prophets).
As Jews they lived and breathed this stuff.
At the same time, there is also a continuity that we are used to - and
that is that there is also a flow from the first letter to the last
bowl.
I can not fully explain an ennead here but the Greeks made good use of
the form (Plato in his Dialogs and others).
The ennead form carried on within Christianity through monastic
traditions (begun with the Egyptian desert fathers) to finally dies
out in upper France. It is most notable in its last form of 'wisdom
writing'.
The "letters from the king" are Jewish scriptures given through the
prophets starting with Moses. The "seals" are waxen seals on the
letters which only the recipient may break and open, the "trumpets"
are sounded to indicate the imminate arrival of the king, and the
bowls poured out are the brazen bowls filled with blood which are
poured out on the ground at the foot of the Ark on the Day of
Atonement.
Notice that the prolog to the visions has Jesus standing within the
Holy of Holies - dresses ih high priest stuff - and his robes are
white (only worn on the Day of Atonement)... Jesus is about to pour
out the bowl of his own blood upon the ground and Ark - and that act
is interrupted by the entrance of John. Then follows the four visions
- which end with - pouring out the bowl (the completion).
The entire work is a history, in prophetic imagery, of Israel from
Adam to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ (notice that when the bowl is
poured out it is accompanied by things which took place at the time of
Jesus' crucifixion... earth quakes, sun being darkened, people rising
from graves.. etc..
The decent of the New Jerusalem is the establishment of the new church
- which moment was established in the event of the resurrection.
The last days and the end times - are the end of the time of the
exclusiveness of the Jewish (Abrahamic) church. It is now to become
inclusive (extended to the gentiles) and purified from how material it
had become back to its spiritual self.
If you can get your hands on The Perennial Revelation of Jesus Christ
by Eugenio Corsini - do so. It is out of print and hard to find.
Perhaps you have read it already? (your own description is very
close).
The bottom line (as with all NT stuff) is that it was written by Jews
- for Jews - to convince them that their king and messiah had indeed
come and had fulfilled all Jewish prophecy.
I am not about to argue with anyone on these points. It would be a
waste of time.
.

User: "moshe"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	04 Nov 2004 08:41:31 PM

In article <418a6efd_7@news1.uncensored-news.com>, stone says...

...This is why people
have so much trouble understanding the book of Revelation.
When I tried to understand it as if everything was given in the
chronological order that it is supposed to
happen, it always seemed to have contradictions. Therefore, I believe that
this is not the proper way to understand it.

***********************
The main events listed in the book of Revelation are the 7 Seals and the 7
Trumpets and the 7 Bowl Judgements and the Millennium, which are listed in the
correct chronological order in which they will be fulfilled.
However, those main events in the book of Revelation are sometimes interrupted
by what I call "vignettes" or "picture stories".
As the main events are unfolding on the time line, a sudden "time out" will be
called to give a vignette, and that vignette is always a story which builds up
to and illustrates the *next* main event which is going to happen on the time
line.
When the vignette is finished, Revelation goes back to the main event time line,
giving the next event, the very event that the vignette had just predicted /
illustrated.
Therefore, the main events are prophecies, and the vignettes are prophecies
about the upcoming prophecies.
Rather than go into further confusing detail trying to explain the principle,
I'll just show what Revelation does so that the principle reveals itself:
---------------------------------
Revelation 6:1-2 = 1st Seal
Revelation 6:3-4 = 2nd Seal
Revelation 6:5-6 = 3rd Seal
Revelation 6:7-8 = 4th Seal
Revelation 6:9-11 = 5th Seal
Revelation 6:12-17 = 6th Seal
Revelation 7:1-17 = 1st Vignette that builds up to / predicts / illustrates what
will happen at 7th Seal
Revelation 8:1-5 = 7th Seal
Revelation 8:6-7 = 1st Trumpet
Revelation 8:8-9 = 2nd Trumpet
Revelation 8:10-11 = 3rd Trumpet
Revelation 8:12-13 = 4th Trumpet
Revelation 9:1-12 = 5th Trumpet
Revelation 9:13-21 = 6th Trumpet
Revelation 10:1-11:14 = 2nd Vignette that builds up to / predicts / illustrates
what will happen at 7th Trumpet
Revelation 11:15-19 = 7th Trumpet ( Resurrection and Rapture)
Revelation 12:1-15:8 = 3rd Vignette that builds up to / predicts / illustrates
what will happen at 1st Bowl Judgement
Revelation 16:1-2 = Ist Bowl
Revelation 16:3 = 2nd Bowl
Revelation 16:4-7 = 3rd Bowl
Revelation 16:8-9 = 4th Bowl
Revelation 16:10-11 = 5th Bowl
Revelation 16:12-16 = 6th Bowl
Revelation 16:17-21 = 7th Bowl
Revelation 17:1-19:10 = 4th Vignette that builds up to / predicts / illustrates
what will happen at the 2nd coming of Jesus
Revelation 19:11-21 = 2nd coming of Jesus
Revelation 20:1-6 = The Millennium
Revelation 20:7-10 = Final rebellion of Satan
Revelation 20:11-15 = White Throne Judgement
Revelation 21:1-22:21 = New Heaven and New Earth
---------------------------------
So there are 4 vignettes which interrupt the main events of the Seals / Trumpets
/ Bowls / Millennium time line.
The 1st vignette in Revelation 7:1-17 shows saints on Earth still dying in the
Great Tribulation so that they become absent from the earthly body and present
with the Lord, while God is sealing 144,000 unsaved Israelites to protect them
from harm during the upcoming Trumpets and Bowls.
When the vignette is over, Revelation resumes the course of regular events by
going to the 7th Seal.
That silence during the 7th Seal is exactly when the sealing of the 144,000
actually takes place on the time line.
The 1st vignette predicted and described what would happen in the 7th Seal.
[If the validity of that principle is not clear from the first vignette, it
becomes crystal clear in the subsequent vignettes]
The 2nd vignette in Revelation 10:1-11:14 shows the 2 witnesses preaching in
Israel for 1,260 days (or 42 months or 3.5 years).
At the end of those 1,260 days, the 2 witnesses are killed, then they rise from
the dead, then they ascend to Heaven.
When that vignette is over, Revelation resumes the course of regular events by
going to the 7th Trumpet.
The 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet of the Bible, which corresponds to the last
trumpet of the resurrection and rapture as stated in I Corinthians 15:51-54.
Revelation 11:18 confirms that by saying that it is time to judge the dead and
reward the saints.
The resurrection and rapture of the 2 saints in the 2nd Vignette predicted and
decribed the resurrection and rapture of all saints that would happen in the 7th
Trumpet.
The 7th Trumpet is when the 2 witnesses are actually resurrected and raptured on
the time line, at the same time as all the rest of the saints.
The 3rd Vignette of Revelation 12:1-15:8 traces history from the birth of Jesus
through the Great Tribulation and up to the winepress of the wrath of God.
When that vignette is over, Revelation resumes the course of regular events by
going to the 1st Bowl Judgement.
Sure enough, the 1st Bowl is the beginning of the wrath of God, when the
winepress of God's wrath actually starts on the time line (the trumpets had been
severe warnings regarding the upcoming wrath of God, but the trumpets had not
been the wrath of God themselves).
The 4th vignette of Revelation 17:1-19:10 describes Babylon the Great, then her
destruction by the anti-Christ, and then the announcement that it is time for
the bride to marry the Lamb.
When the vignette is over, Revelation resumes the course of regular events on
the time line by showing the 2nd coming of Jesus and the beginning of our reign
with him.
When one realizes that the 4 vignettes are momentary "time-outs" in the
unfurling of the time line, with each vignette giving a picture story building
up to and describing the *next* event on the time line, everything in Revelation
finally falls into place and makes sense in chronological terms.
By the way, if you know of anyone else who interprets Revelation the way I do,
please let me know.
Back in the mid 1980's when I first read many prophecies of the Bible and
discovered that the Great Tribulation only lasts 3.5 years (as the second half
of Daniel's final week), and that the Rapture takes place after the Great
Tribulation, I wondered if anyone else in the world had read and understood the
same thing in the Bible.
I had to wait until I got on the Internet in 1999 to discover that there *were*
other "post-tribbers" in the world.
Now it woud be nice if the Internet would enable me to find other people who
interpret the book of Revelation the way I see it.
Because, as Daniel 12 shows, these are the end times and God is finally
unsealing the books so that we can finally understand them just before the
events start to happen.
- moshe
.

User: "randy"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	05 Nov 2004 02:42:14 PM

"moshe"
stone

The main events listed in the book of Revelation are the 7 Seals and the 7
Trumpets and the 7 Bowl Judgements and the Millennium, which are listed in
the
correct chronological order in which they will be fulfilled.

moshe, I really like the way you go on to describe how events are
interrupted by "vignettes." I think this is really true. However, I can't
say that the book of Revelation is chronological. It does, of course, flow
in that direction. But the book is a number of overlapping visions, some
describing the very same events in different ways in different contexts. In
other words, the book of Revelation has a *narrative* order, like a novel.
But the order is not always chronological, but rather, a set of visions
describing a particular period of time in a number of different ways.
I discovered this a couple decades ago when I studied the symbols and images
in the Revelation, as used in the OT. I discovered that nearly all of the
images used in Revelation can be applied in an apocalyptic context depicting
the return of the Lord. The whole book, then, can best be understood as
describing the context of Christ's coming itself, and not as a kind of
apocalyptic novel in chronological order. The variety of visions are meant
to fulfill the many issues concerned in eschatology, from judgment to
salvation, to Israel's national salvation, to the inclusion of the Gentile
nations in Israel's salvation.

However, those main events in the book of Revelation are sometimes
interrupted
by what I call "vignettes" or "picture stories".

As the main events are unfolding on the time line, a sudden "time out"
will be
called to give a vignette, and that vignette is always a story which
builds up
to and illustrates the *next* main event which is going to happen on the
time
line.
When the vignette is finished, Revelation goes back to the main event time
line,
giving the next event, the very event that the vignette had just predicted
/
illustrated.
When one realizes that the 4 vignettes are momentary "time-outs" in the
unfurling of the time line, with each vignette giving a picture story
building
up to and describing the *next* event on the time line, everything in
Revelation
finally falls into place and makes sense in chronological terms.

The visions given in Revelation can stand alone, but are a part of a
narrative sequence, which is often chronological (but not necessarily so).
As Daniel received a number of different visions, and heard from angels on
different occasions, so does John see different angels appearing and giving
different visions. The book of Revelation can be seen as a single unit, or
as a series of visions complete in themselves.

By the way, if you know of anyone else who interprets Revelation the way I
do,
please let me know.

I agree with your basic concept of general chronological sequence, but not
necessarily so. I really like how you describe the visions as they use
"vignettes." This is a very original way of putting it.

Back in the mid 1980's when I first read many prophecies of the Bible and
discovered that the Great Tribulation only lasts 3.5 years (as the second
half
of Daniel's final week), and that the Rapture takes place after the Great
Tribulation, I wondered if anyone else in the world had read and
understood the
same thing in the Bible....

I became a postribulationist in the early 70s when my older brother insisted
I memorize Scriptures. One of the first books I memorized was 2
Thessalonians, because I loved prophecy. I was astonished to realize I had
been memorizing postrib doctrine! I had been taught pretribism almost
exclusively in my church.
In the late 70s I moved to S. California and had a little crisis over my
beliefs. I listened to Chuck Smith (of Calvary Chapel fame) on the radio, as
he commented on the book of Revelation and prophecy. The climate in that
region was very very pretrib. As I pondered if I was being obstinate or
what, I began to search out a bookstore at Melodyland Christian Center,
Anaheim. I stranger walked up to me and offered help. After explaining my
dilemma he recommended two books, which turn out to be postrib standards on
the subject, George Eldon Ladd's "The Blessed Hope," and Robert Gundry's
"The Church and the Tribulation." Then I felt the Lord convict me that I had
not simply believed in what I already knew from 2 Thessalonians. In the
interest of Christian objectivity I had been willing to sacrifice truth, to
somehow find a middle ground that pretribbers might accept. I became a
steadfast postribulationist forever.

I had to wait until I got on the Internet in 1999 to discover that there
*were*
other "post-tribbers" in the world.

I was also surprised how many postrib voices had not been given a hearing,
except by internet!
Interestingly, moshe, I think it was I who was able to convince the famed
Walter Martin to make a tape favoring postribism before he died. I could be
wrong, but I think so.

Now it woud be nice if the Internet would enable me to find other people
who
interpret the book of Revelation the way I see it.

;) I love it.
Throughout my life I've had to make so many modifications that anytime I
hear somebody say they've held their position consistently through the
years, I know they're deaf and can't hear God! ;) I appreciate your honesty,
quite sincerely.

Because, as Daniel 12 shows, these are the end times and God is finally
unsealing the books so that we can finally understand them just before the
events start to happen.

And that is true. Just read the newspapers.
randy
.

User: "moshe"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	05 Nov 2004 09:59:48 PM

In article <2v26tbF2fegl2U1@uni-berlin.de>, randy says...

...But the book is a number of overlapping visions, some
describing the very same events in different ways in different contexts.

*******
I agree, since that is what I claim about the vignettes.
A vignette overlaps the next event on the time line and shows that event from a
different perspective so as to give a better understanding of it.
The vignette is a type of close-up shot of what is going to happen next on the
time line.
The vignette in the 1st half of Revelation chapter 11 overlaps the 7th Trumpet
resurrection and rapture in the 2nd half of Revelation chapter 11, because they
are talking about the same event, when all the saints get resurrected and
raptured.
But the vignette describes it in a more personal way, from a different
perspective, in a close-up shot, by focusing on how it happens to 2 specific
individuals, even though those 2 witnesses are resurrected and raptured at
exactly the same time as everyone else.
It is like the vignette is a close-up shot of what will happen next on the time
lime.
When the vignette is done and the time line is rejoined, the camera pulls back
and gives the wider shot, the big picture this time.
- moshe
.

User: "stone"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	06 Nov 2004 03:14:14 PM

Correction, I made a mistake:
Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who
created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the
things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that
there should be time no longer:
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he
shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath
declared to his servants the prophets.
You see " time no longer" and "mystery of God should be finished" words
indicating that the 7 th seal happens at the last day.
I really mean to say, "that the 7th trumpet happens at the last day", in
that sentence.
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User: "George Peatty"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	05 Nov 2004 01:41:31 PM

On 4 Nov 2004 18:41:31 -0800, moshe <moshe_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

Revelation 6:1-2 = 1st Seal

Revelation 6:3-4 = 2nd Seal

Revelation 6:5-6 = 3rd Seal

Revelation 6:7-8 = 4th Seal

Revelation 6:9-11 = 5th Seal

Revelation 6:12-17 = 6th Seal

Revelation 7:1-17 = 1st Vignette that builds up to / predicts / illustrates what
will happen at 7th Seal

Revelation 8:1-5 = 7th Seal

Revelation 8:6-7 = 1st Trumpet

Revelation 8:8-9 = 2nd Trumpet

Revelation 8:10-11 = 3rd Trumpet

Revelation 8:12-13 = 4th Trumpet

Revelation 9:1-12 = 5th Trumpet

Revelation 9:13-21 = 6th Trumpet

Revelation 10:1-11:14 = 2nd Vignette that builds up to / predicts / illustrates
what will happen at 7th Trumpet

Revelation 11:15-19 = 7th Trumpet ( Resurrection and Rapture)

Revelation 12:1-15:8 = 3rd Vignette that builds up to / predicts / illustrates
what will happen at 1st Bowl Judgement

Revelation 16:1-2 = Ist Bowl

Revelation 16:3 = 2nd Bowl

Revelation 16:4-7 = 3rd Bowl

Revelation 16:8-9 = 4th Bowl

Revelation 16:10-11 = 5th Bowl

Revelation 16:12-16 = 6th Bowl

Revelation 16:17-21 = 7th Bowl

Revelation 17:1-19:10 = 4th Vignette that builds up to / predicts / illustrates
what will happen at the 2nd coming of Jesus

Revelation 19:11-21 = 2nd coming of Jesus

Revelation 20:1-6 = The Millennium

Revelation 20:7-10 = Final rebellion of Satan

Revelation 20:11-15 = White Throne Judgement

Revelation 21:1-22:21 = New Heaven and New Earth

I am pre-trib, pre-mil, but what I've quoted above is sound exegesis, I
believe, and I can't say that about much of what I read here.
.

User: "pablo"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	06 Nov 2004 01:27:00 PM

moshe <moshe_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<cmep8r0cn4@drn.newsguy.com>...

In article <418a6efd_7@news1.uncensored-news.com>, stone says...

[my "note #2" at the end of this post deals with the idea of
"recapitulation" as a way of understanding the order in revelation]
snipped only for space...
hi, i just wanted to add some comments - taking a cue from 1 peter 4:
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the
house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of
them that obey not the gospel of God?
this can be seen in the book of revelation.
follow the 7's.
7 letters to 7 churches : judgement begins in the house of God.
7 seals : judgement on the earth
7 trumpets : judgement on the earth
7 bowls : judgement on the earth
The Millennium (mentioned 7 times)
1- "Satan is bound for 1,000 years" (20:1-3)
2- The Millennium of the saved (20:4-5)
3- The Believer's Millennium (20:6)
4- Satan released after the thousand years (20:7-9)
5- Armageddon (20:9b)
6- Satan thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur (20:10)
7- The Judgment of The Great White Throne (20:11-14)
for me, the easiest way to see this unfolding of judgement is in the
millenium. satan is bound for 1000 years -- and upon satan's release
-- what does he do? he goes right back to deceiving the nations. it
is the patience of God that leads people to repentance -- and God's
patience is shown in judgement as well. 1000 years to reform -- yet
satan will not be reformed -- so before all people, principalities,
and powers -- God's act of judging satan is proven to be justice of
the highest order.
the 7 letters to the 7 churches -- is the judgement of God beginning
in the house of God.
on a purely human level this makes sense -- why judge those outside
and spare those within your own home -- why hold a double standard of
calling people to repentence.
which btw, "repent or else," is the message of the 7 letters.
if one reads the 7 seals, trumpets, and bowls -- one also sees that
people do not repent -- at first they seek the mountains and rocks to
fall on them and hide them. then they refuse to repent of their sins.
in the end, not only do they refuse to repent -- but they curse God.
the same principle is at work here -- given every opportunity to
repent -- the people of earth who refuse to repent -- are proven to be
unwilling and unwanting of God. they have made their choice -- and
God is just in granting them the full fruit of their decision.
while this speaks of the future -- it also had meaning in it's day --
prophecy works that way -- telling often of the present and the future
in one breath. [see ray summers, "worthy is the lamb" for an excellent
study on how this book spoke to it's day].
peter's words also speak of the present.
in 1 john he speaks saying that they church had heard that the
anti-christ was coming -- but then john adds, but there are many
anti-christs already here and busy at work.
he spoke of the coming -- person -- the anti-christ -- but also of
those who are already doing the work of anti-christs.
in peter the same is true: even today, judgement begins in the house
of God. just as it did when judgement and a call to repentance was
given to jonah before it was given to ninevah.
this is in keeping with a traditional church hymn: "oh Lord send a
revival, and let it begin with me." revival is always a time of
repentence.
peace.
pablo
[note #1. Matthew 24:4-14 -- mentions 7 signs of the coming of the
end]
[note #2. some think revelation follows a thematic style called,
"recapitulation."
a repetition of events from different vantage points or perspectives
-- IOW -- the book, as a whole, is not linear.
many have broken it up into 7 cycles:
I. Introduction: John Commissioned as a Prophet (1:1-20)
II. John's Prophetic Messages to the 7 Churches (2:1-3:22)
III. The Heavenly Origin of the Coming Judgment (4:1-5:14)
IV. The 7 Cycles of Judgment (6:1-21:9)
1. 7 Seals of Judgment on Earth (6:1-8:1)
2. 7 Trumpets of Judgment on Earth (8:2-11:19)
3. Rise of the Dragon, Beast, & False Prophet (12:1-14:20)
4. 7 Bowls of Judgment (15:1-16:21)
5. Rise & Judgment of Babylon (17:1-19:10)
6. Judgment of the Beast and False Prophet (19:11-21)
7. Judgment of the Dragon (20:1-15)
V. God's New Creation on the 8th Day (21:1-22:5)
VI. Conclusion: Christ's Final Instructions to the Church (22:6-21)
http://www.oceansideurc.org/sections/articles/read_revelation.htm ]
.

User: "stone"
Title: Re: Trying to Understand Revelation	06 Nov 2004 03:03:42 PM

moshe wrote in message ...

In article <418a6efd_7@news1.uncensored-news.com>, stone says...

that

this is not the proper way to understand it.

***********************

The main events listed in the book of Revelation are the 7 Seals and the 7
Trumpets and the 7 Bowl Judgements and the Millennium, which are listed in

the

correct chronological order in which they will be fulfilled.

Any scriptures in the bible that need to be interpreted, your interpretation
must not contradict any other scripture in the bible. If your interpretation
contradicts any other scripture then the interpretation is false and you
need to come up with another interpretation.
Those main events you are talking about can't be given in the right order,
because it will cause contradictions. Actually they overlap each other. The
first notable contradiction:
At the opening of the 6th seal, the heaven departs like a scroll. This
happens at the time of the end when Jesus comes back. If that was the proper
order then the rest of what happens in revelation would happen without a
sky.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo,
there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig
tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled
together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be
able to stand?
That is the day when Jesus returns.
Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence
in heaven about the space of half an hour.
That is the end of the vision conscerning the seals.
Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to
them were given seven trumpets.
You see those words "and I saw", that is introducing a completely new
vision. That does not follow after the 7 th seal in actual chronology,
because as we have seen, the last day happens at the 6th seal.
Actually the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials all end at the last day
when Jesus comes back. The 7 seals are an overview of the whole 7 years. The
7 trumpets are mostly about the first 3 and a half years leading into the
last 3 and a half and then the end. The 7 vials are about the last 3 and a
half years leading to the end. You can tell this from the context of what is
said.
Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who
created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the
things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that
there should be time no longer:
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he
shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath
declared to his servants the prophets.
You see " time no longer" and "mystery of God should be finished" words
indicating that the 7 th seal happens at the last day.
The 7 vials also go to the last day: These are the plagues of the last 3 and
half years
Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the
wrath of God.
Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels
seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;
and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne,
saying, It is done.
These are the last plagues and "it is done" or finished at the last one.
That also happens at the last day.
Note: The events of the vials cannot happen all in one day as you suppose.
Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of
the mou