Josef Balluch wrote:

In a message sent 'round the world,

The basic argument against ath iesm starts from the fact that
atheists live in a way that is dependent on theism.

Unsupported assertion.

See earlier long post. It is not that I can independently support
any of this, but I see no reason to hold back s aying what I think about
this.

I am on vacation.

Josef Balluch wrote:

In a message sent 'round the world,

The basic argument against athiesm starts from the fact that
atheists live in a way that is dependent on theism.

Unsupported assertion.

See earlier long post. It is not that I can independently support
any of this, but I see no reason to hold back saying what I think about
this. I am on vacation.

They are not simply wrong, they are incoherent, like a man dancing
whille proclaiming that he has no legs.

Ad hominem.

Not really. I meant that a persons actions do not line up coherently
with their beliefs when they deny all religiosity.

Mr. F. Le Mur wrote:

On 14 Aug 2005 21:25:39 -0700,

My Dad was in the army for a long time and absorbed a lot of old
fashioned values. He started his own company in the mid sixties and ran
it until his death a few years ago.
He took care of his employees like they were his "troops". They
were paid above market and they had first rate health care plans - all
the way down to the floor sweepers. A few years b efore he died he had a
stroke that left him significantly impaired. For the next few years the
company worked just fine with him in his office only vaguely aware of
what going on. No one stole, no one slacked off, it remained a going
c oncern based on the inspiration of his values.
He created about a 100 times more useful human value in his
lifetime than the weasily , ruthless dishonesty of a MM ohair type
person.

Nice story, but it has nothing to do with religiosity.

No, but it does have a lot to do with explaining why talking like a
nihilist and showing scant regard for decent behavior can result in
being surrounded by people who think and feel the same way.

sometimes they will act on it to your detriment.

It was explained to me early on that if the boss tries to cheat the
customers he or she should not act surprised if employees do the same
to the company.

The basic argument against athiesm starts from the fact that
atheists live in a way that is dependent on theism.

*****.

They are not simply wrong, they are incoherent, like a man dancing
whille proclaiming that he has no legs.

More *****.

The root, both linguistically and existentially, of the word
"religion" has to do with connections; that things are tied together in
deeper ways than surface appearances suggest. Some people might argue
that theism is something different, that one can believe and act as if
everything is somehow interconnected without using the word or concept
of a god. Like Buhhdists. Whatever. This argument can get well and
truly started either way.
When I say "atheists" live in a way that is dependent of "theism" I
mean that they, like everyone, experience value and meanings to things
in a way that exceeds the possibilities of ordinary sense perception.
When walking alone on a beach, they do not experience that as being
utterly seperated and al ienated from all human contact. So, where are
the other people? Their unconscious mind is crammed with memories,
dreams, and reflections of interactions that provide a humming
background of fellow-feeling.
We are never 100% awake. All of our w aking experience is to some
extent being impacted by the roiling unconscious mind; we are always
feeling, to some extent, what we are dreaming. And this is what gives
us a feeling of meaning in life- a sense of being connected.
The salient ch aracteristic of experiences we have inside the
dreaming part of ourselves is that it feels actually real. It is there
and really happening to us. This is given away by the fact that we
react to it as it were real and present. When asleep, the dreame r being
chased by monsters might even move his feet trying to escape. No reason
to do that towards the pure "idea" of a monster. When awake, thinking
of a naked bimbo in a motel 6 has been known to arouse physiological
responses (in guys)that imply that the image in mind is real enough
***** in the flesh, otherwise why any reaction at all?
Our brains are not just computers that rearrange data. Thinking,
perceiving, and feeling happen together. Mental images are associated
with pleasure, pain, or meaning because we, on some level, feel
something along with them.
There is no way to explain the origin of such "meaningful"
experiences without 1. Acknowledging that our brains function partly
as antennae that absorb experience that cannot be transmitted by any
physical sense organ

are actually as alone within ourselves as if we had never met another
human being.
If we embrace 1. we are religious,

if we assert 2. we are in coherent
as long as we act as if we are in fact connected.

Mr. F. Le Mur wrote:

On 14 Aug 2005 21:25:39 -0700,

My Dad was in the army for a long time and absorbed a lot of old
fashioned values. He started his own company in the mid sixties and ran
it until his death a few years ago.
He took care of his employees like they were his "troops". They
were paid above market and they had first rate health care plans - all
the way down to the floor sweepers. A few years before he died he had a
stroke that left him significantly impaired. For the next few years the
company worked just fine with him in his office only vaguely aware of
what going on. No one stole, no one slacked off, it remained a going
concern based on the inspiration of his values.
He created about a 100 times more useful human value in his
lifetime than the weasily , ruthless dishonesty of a MM ohair type
person.

Nice story, but it has nothing to do with religiosity.

No, but it does have a lot to do with explaining why talking like a
nihilist and showing scant regard for decent behavior can result in
being surrounded by people who think and feel the same way. And
sometimes they will act on it to your detriment.

It was explained to me early on that if the boss tries to cheat the
customers he or she should not act surprised if employees do the same
to the company.

The basic argument against athiesm starts from the fact that
atheists live in a way that is dependent on theism.

*****.

They are not simply wrong, they are incoherent, like a man dancing
whille proclaiming that he has no legs.

More *****.

The root, both linguistically and existentially, of the word
"religion" has to do with connections; that things are tied together in
deeper ways than surface appearances suggest. Some people might argue
that theism is something different, that one can believe and act as if
everything is somehow interconnected without using the word or concept
of a god. Like Buhhdists. Whatever. This argument can get well and
truly started either way.
When I say "atheists" live in a way that is dependent of "theism" I
mean that they, like everyone, experience value and meanings to things
in a way that exceeds the possibilities of ordinary sense perception.

When walking alone on a beach, they do not experience that as being
utterly seperated and alienated from all human contact. So, where are
the other people? Their unconscious mind is crammed with memories,
dreams, and reflections of interactions that provide a humming
background of fellow-feeling.
We are never 100% awake. All of our waking experience is to some
extent being impacted by the roiling unconscious mind; we are always
feeling, to some extent, what we are dreaming. And this is what gives
us a feeling of meaning in life- a sense of being connected.

The salient characteristic of experiences we have inside the
dreaming part of ourselves is that it feels actually real. It is there
and really happening to us. This is given away by the fact that we
react to it as it were real and present. When asleep, the dreamer being
chased by monsters might even move his feet trying to escape. No reason
to do that towards the pure "idea" of a monster. When awake, thinking
of a naked bimbo in a motel 6 has been known to arouse physiological
responses (in guys)that imply that the image in mind is real enough
***** in the flesh, otherwise why any reaction at all?
Our brains are not just computers that rearrange data.
Thinking, perceiving, and feeling happen together.
Mental images are associated
with pleasure, pain, or meaning because we, on some level, feel
something along with them.

There is no way to explain the origin of such "meaningful"
experiences without 1. Acknowledging that our brains function partly
as antennae that absorb experience that cannot be transmitted by any
physical sense organ or 2. Our minds are playing tricks on us and we
are actually as alone within ourselves as if we had never met another
human being.
If we embrace 1. we are religious, if we assert 2. we are incoherent
as long as we act as if we are in fact connected.

"God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the
miserable. They find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind
of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos; He will set them
above their betters." - H.L.M.

And there is something called "irony", which seems to be mixed into
the substance of reality. So we see a very prominent proponent of
nihilism falling into the hands of a high grade sociopath.

I rarely think in terms of what is "deserved". But I do believe that
nihilism is an un-natural philosophy for human beings and that
embracing it tends to cut people off from the experience of their own
best selves.

And there is something called "irony", which seems to be mixed into
the substance of reality. So we see a very prominent proponent of
nihilism falling into the hands of a high grade sociopath.
What is the final meaning of this? It means whatever irony always
means. It is hard to define precisely but we know it when we see it.