| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"John Watson" |
| Date: |
15 Jul 2004 11:44:18 PM |
| Object: |
Twelve Reasons Gay Marriage Will Ruin Society |
1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth
control.
2. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile
couples and old people can't legally get married because the world needs
more children.
3. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents
only raise straight children.
4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful, since Britney Spears' 55-hour
just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.
5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at
all; just like women are property, blacks can't marry whites, and divorce is
illegal.
6. Gay marriage should be decided by people not the courts, because the
majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the
rights of the minorities.
7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the
values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have
only one religion in America.
8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that
hanging around tall people will make you tall.
9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy
behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal
standing and can sign a marriage contract.
10. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at
home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.
11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual
marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new
social norms because we haven't adapted to cars or longer lifespans.
12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a
different name, are better because a "separate but equal" institution is
always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as
well as separate marriages for gays and lesbians will.
.
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
27 Jul 2004 11:53:16 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:38:39 -0700 in episode
<d5GNc.8942$mg6.3229@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:06:46 -0700 in episode
<MPG.1b6f23c6d03119d59899e2@news.west.cox.net> we saw our hero Enkidu
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com>:
In article <WBcNc.38651$vO1.186015@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
L_Michael_Roberts@NoSpamThanks.net says...
Enkidu wrote:
In article <BD29C8B2.296A%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>,
kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au says...
On 25/7/04 10:55 AM, in article
MPG.1b6ca4db4a7b21a89899ca@news.west.cox.net, "Enkidu"
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com> wrote:
Stoney,
I'd like to discuss Linux with someone who's a distance ahead of me.
If you are up for it, please contact me via email. My reply-to
works.
What distro do you use? Debian? Fedora? Slackware?
None, yet. I need to replace my wife's desktop, so that frees up a
300 MHz Pentium II system with 196MB to begin learning on.
Might I suggest that you look into Linspire - http://www.linspire.com/
It is probably not what you want if you are planning to learn how to
compile and run Linux using a command line interface. It *is* a non M$
product that installs and behaves in much the same way as Winblows thus
taking the pain out of getting up and running. If you wife wants to
use the 'puter for Email and surfing the web, it would probably work
out well and be a good way to "get your feet wet" when it comes to
Linux.
I was thinking of something a little challenging, but I hadn't
considered moving the wife to Linux. That's actually not a bad idea.
More likely to succeed with her. Thanks!
Myself, I would avoid Linspire. Last I knew, they were running
everything as root which is stupid as can be. That's a "script kiddie's"
dream...
Apparently you can alter this, but like much of Microsoft's products, the
default is the least secure. That's "most functional" in newspeak.
It's a "default" for which they should be taken out and whacked repeatedly
with a clue stick. It's irresponsible of them and I'm having nothing to do
with a company that pulls stunts like that...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Matty" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
28 Jul 2004 03:27:06 AM |
|
|
On 28/7/04 2:29 PM, in article pan.2004.07.28.04.29.51.246151@org.webmaster,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:06:46 -0700 in episode
<MPG.1b6f23c6d03119d59899e2@news.west.cox.net> we saw our hero Enkidu
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com>:
In article <WBcNc.38651$vO1.186015@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
L_Michael_Roberts@NoSpamThanks.net says...
Enkidu wrote:
In article <BD29C8B2.296A%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>,
kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au says...
On 25/7/04 10:55 AM, in article
MPG.1b6ca4db4a7b21a89899ca@news.west.cox.net, "Enkidu"
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com> wrote:
Stoney,
I'd like to discuss Linux with someone who's a distance ahead of me.
If you are up for it, please contact me via email. My reply-to
works.
What distro do you use? Debian? Fedora? Slackware?
None, yet. I need to replace my wife's desktop, so that frees up a
300 MHz Pentium II system with 196MB to begin learning on.
Might I suggest that you look into Linspire - http://www.linspire.com/
It is probably not what you want if you are planning to learn how to
compile and run Linux using a command line interface. It *is* a non M$
product that installs and behaves in much the same way as Winblows thus
taking the pain out of getting up and running. If you wife wants to use
the 'puter for Email and surfing the web, it would probably work out
well and be a good way to "get your feet wet" when it comes to Linux.
I was thinking of something a little challenging, but I hadn't considered
moving the wife to Linux. That's actually not a bad idea. More likely to
succeed with her. Thanks!
Myself, I would avoid Linspire. Last I knew, they were running everything
as root which is stupid as can be. That's a "script kiddie's" dream...
IIRC, they no longer have absolute root, instead they've using SELinux
modules which IIRC has no root as such; the security is much finer grained.
Matty
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
28 Jul 2004 07:43:42 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:27:06 +1000 in episode
<BD2DA07A.30AB%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 28/7/04 2:29 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.28.04.29.51.246151@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:06:46 -0700 in episode
<MPG.1b6f23c6d03119d59899e2@news.west.cox.net> we saw our hero Enkidu
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com>:
In article <WBcNc.38651$vO1.186015@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
L_Michael_Roberts@NoSpamThanks.net says...
Enkidu wrote:
In article <BD29C8B2.296A%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>,
kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au says...
On 25/7/04 10:55 AM, in article
MPG.1b6ca4db4a7b21a89899ca@news.west.cox.net, "Enkidu"
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com> wrote:
Stoney,
I'd like to discuss Linux with someone who's a distance ahead of
me. If you are up for it, please contact me via email. My reply-to
works.
What distro do you use? Debian? Fedora? Slackware?
None, yet. I need to replace my wife's desktop, so that frees up a
300 MHz Pentium II system with 196MB to begin learning on.
Might I suggest that you look into Linspire - http://www.linspire.com/
It is probably not what you want if you are planning to learn how to
compile and run Linux using a command line interface. It *is* a non
M$ product that installs and behaves in much the same way as Winblows
thus taking the pain out of getting up and running. If you wife wants
to use the 'puter for Email and surfing the web, it would probably
work out well and be a good way to "get your feet wet" when it comes
to Linux.
I was thinking of something a little challenging, but I hadn't
considered moving the wife to Linux. That's actually not a bad idea.
More likely to succeed with her. Thanks!
Myself, I would avoid Linspire. Last I knew, they were running
everything as root which is stupid as can be. That's a "script kiddie's"
dream...
IIRC, they no longer have absolute root, instead they've using SELinux
modules which IIRC has no root as such; the security is much finer
grained.
That would be *much better. I confess I haven't kept up with them much
lately. Honestly, I was never that impressed with them. But if they've
straightened out their security, they could be a decent "consumer" Linux.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
|
|
|
| User: "Enkidu" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
28 Jul 2004 11:38:24 AM |
|
|
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:27:06 +1000 in episode
<BD2DA07A.30AB%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 28/7/04 2:29 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.28.04.29.51.246151@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:06:46 -0700 in episode
<MPG.1b6f23c6d03119d59899e2@news.west.cox.net> we saw our hero Enkidu
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com>:
In article <WBcNc.38651$vO1.186015@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
L_Michael_Roberts@NoSpamThanks.net says...
Enkidu wrote:
In article <BD29C8B2.296A%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>,
kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au says...
On 25/7/04 10:55 AM, in article
MPG.1b6ca4db4a7b21a89899ca@news.west.cox.net, "Enkidu"
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com> wrote:
Stoney,
I'd like to discuss Linux with someone who's a distance ahead of
me. If you are up for it, please contact me via email. My reply-to
works.
What distro do you use? Debian? Fedora? Slackware?
None, yet. I need to replace my wife's desktop, so that frees up a
300 MHz Pentium II system with 196MB to begin learning on.
Might I suggest that you look into Linspire - http://www.linspire.com/
It is probably not what you want if you are planning to learn how to
compile and run Linux using a command line interface. It *is* a non
M$ product that installs and behaves in much the same way as Winblows
thus taking the pain out of getting up and running. If you wife wants
to use the 'puter for Email and surfing the web, it would probably
work out well and be a good way to "get your feet wet" when it comes
to Linux.
I was thinking of something a little challenging, but I hadn't
considered moving the wife to Linux. That's actually not a bad idea.
More likely to succeed with her. Thanks!
Myself, I would avoid Linspire. Last I knew, they were running
everything as root which is stupid as can be. That's a "script kiddie's"
dream...
IIRC, they no longer have absolute root, instead they've using SELinux
modules which IIRC has no root as such; the security is much finer
grained.
That would be *much better. I confess I haven't kept up with them much
lately. Honestly, I was never that impressed with them. But if they've
straightened out their security, they could be a decent "consumer" Linux.
I know old time Linux users often HATE Linspire/Lindows. But if you
want to elbow into the OS desktop market, somebody has got to smooth the
edges off the transition. Linspire? Maybe, maybe not. But somebody
has got to make it possible for my mom and millions like her to use
Linux for email, digital pix and such common tasks.
--
Enkidu
aa 2165
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without
having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of
it too?"
--Douglas Adams
Now playing . . .
Mark Knopfler - Camerado
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
28 Jul 2004 03:09:35 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:38:24 -0700 in episode
<ZDQNc.10421$mg6.9449@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:27:06 +1000 in episode
<BD2DA07A.30AB%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 28/7/04 2:29 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.28.04.29.51.246151@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:06:46 -0700 in episode
<MPG.1b6f23c6d03119d59899e2@news.west.cox.net> we saw our hero Enkidu
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com>:
In article <WBcNc.38651$vO1.186015@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
L_Michael_Roberts@NoSpamThanks.net says...
Enkidu wrote:
In article <BD29C8B2.296A%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>,
kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au says...
On 25/7/04 10:55 AM, in article
MPG.1b6ca4db4a7b21a89899ca@news.west.cox.net, "Enkidu"
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com> wrote:
Stoney,
I'd like to discuss Linux with someone who's a distance ahead of
me. If you are up for it, please contact me via email. My
reply-to works.
What distro do you use? Debian? Fedora? Slackware?
None, yet. I need to replace my wife's desktop, so that frees up a
300 MHz Pentium II system with 196MB to begin learning on.
Might I suggest that you look into Linspire -
http://www.linspire.com/
It is probably not what you want if you are planning to learn how
to
compile and run Linux using a command line interface. It *is* a non
M$ product that installs and behaves in much the same way as Winblows
thus taking the pain out of getting up and running. If you wife
wants to use the 'puter for Email and surfing the web, it would
probably work out well and be a good way to "get your feet wet" when
it comes to Linux.
I was thinking of something a little challenging, but I hadn't
considered moving the wife to Linux. That's actually not a bad idea.
More likely to succeed with her. Thanks!
Myself, I would avoid Linspire. Last I knew, they were running
everything as root which is stupid as can be. That's a "script
kiddie's" dream...
IIRC, they no longer have absolute root, instead they've using SELinux
modules which IIRC has no root as such; the security is much finer
grained.
That would be *much better. I confess I haven't kept up with them much
lately. Honestly, I was never that impressed with them. But if they've
straightened out their security, they could be a decent "consumer"
Linux.
I know old time Linux users often HATE Linspire/Lindows. But if you want
to elbow into the OS desktop market, somebody has got to smooth the edges
off the transition. Linspire? Maybe, maybe not. But somebody has got to
make it possible for my mom and millions like her to use Linux for email,
digital pix and such common tasks.
But Linspire isn't about *that. It's much more about one man's ego.
The work on the (many) projects to make Linux useful on the desktop
started before the CEO of Linspire started yapping at Gates. And would
continue if Linspire vanished. More, Linspire is building on the work of
others and can't take all *that much credit for what they offer.
Linux will "get there." It's just not going to happen overnight. Windows
took *years to reach decent usability...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
|
|
|
| User: "Enkidu" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
28 Jul 2004 06:17:58 PM |
|
|
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:38:24 -0700 in episode
<ZDQNc.10421$mg6.9449@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:27:06 +1000 in episode
<BD2DA07A.30AB%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 28/7/04 2:29 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.28.04.29.51.246151@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:06:46 -0700 in episode
<MPG.1b6f23c6d03119d59899e2@news.west.cox.net> we saw our hero Enkidu
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com>:
In article <WBcNc.38651$vO1.186015@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
L_Michael_Roberts@NoSpamThanks.net says...
Enkidu wrote:
In article <BD29C8B2.296A%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>,
kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au says...
On 25/7/04 10:55 AM, in article
MPG.1b6ca4db4a7b21a89899ca@news.west.cox.net, "Enkidu"
<zwi6iv402@sneakemail.com> wrote:
Stoney,
I'd like to discuss Linux with someone who's a distance ahead of
me. If you are up for it, please contact me via email. My
reply-to works.
What distro do you use? Debian? Fedora? Slackware?
None, yet. I need to replace my wife's desktop, so that frees up a
300 MHz Pentium II system with 196MB to begin learning on.
Might I suggest that you look into Linspire -
http://www.linspire.com/
It is probably not what you want if you are planning to learn how
to
compile and run Linux using a command line interface. It *is* a non
M$ product that installs and behaves in much the same way as Winblows
thus taking the pain out of getting up and running. If you wife
wants to use the 'puter for Email and surfing the web, it would
probably work out well and be a good way to "get your feet wet" when
it comes to Linux.
I was thinking of something a little challenging, but I hadn't
considered moving the wife to Linux. That's actually not a bad idea.
More likely to succeed with her. Thanks!
Myself, I would avoid Linspire. Last I knew, they were running
everything as root which is stupid as can be. That's a "script
kiddie's" dream...
IIRC, they no longer have absolute root, instead they've using SELinux
modules which IIRC has no root as such; the security is much finer
grained.
That would be *much better. I confess I haven't kept up with them much
lately. Honestly, I was never that impressed with them. But if they've
straightened out their security, they could be a decent "consumer"
Linux.
I know old time Linux users often HATE Linspire/Lindows. But if you want
to elbow into the OS desktop market, somebody has got to smooth the edges
off the transition. Linspire? Maybe, maybe not. But somebody has got to
make it possible for my mom and millions like her to use Linux for email,
digital pix and such common tasks.
But Linspire isn't about *that. It's much more about one man's ego.
The work on the (many) projects to make Linux useful on the desktop
started before the CEO of Linspire started yapping at Gates. And would
continue if Linspire vanished. More, Linspire is building on the work of
others and can't take all *that much credit for what they offer.
All true, and not to the point. I don't care about his motivation. I
care about his product. If his product will place Linux on the
non-technical users' desktops, then that's great. If it won't, then
something else must if Linux is ever to be seriously competitive. Old
time Linux users will find reasons to ***** about any Linux product that
brings Linux to the masses. Remember, it's not for you! It's for your
mother-in-law, the one who can't scan for viruses, can't install a
printer, can't edit a simple text file.
Lance Armstrong has a sophisticated bike that cost tens of thousands,
I'm sure. I have an old single speed I use on the boardwalk. Which is
better? What's it going to be used for?
Linux will "get there." It's just not going to happen overnight. Windows
took *years to reach decent usability...
I hope so. How long must we wait?
--
Enkidu
aa 2165
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without
having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of
it too?"
--Douglas Adams
Now playing . . .
Big Head Todd and The Monsters - Peacemaker`s Blues
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
29 Jul 2004 08:57:10 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:17:58 -0700 in episode
<yuWNc.10463$mg6.8314@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:38:24 -0700 in episode
<ZDQNc.10421$mg6.9449@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
<snipping for space>
I know old time Linux users often HATE Linspire/Lindows. But if you
want to elbow into the OS desktop market, somebody has got to smooth the
edges off the transition. Linspire? Maybe, maybe not. But somebody
has got to make it possible for my mom and millions like her to use
Linux for email, digital pix and such common tasks.
But Linspire isn't about *that. It's much more about one man's ego.
The work on the (many) projects to make Linux useful on the desktop
started before the CEO of Linspire started yapping at Gates. And would
continue if Linspire vanished. More, Linspire is building on the work of
others and can't take all *that much credit for what they offer.
All true, and not to the point. I don't care about his motivation. I
care about his product.
Problem being, IMO, is that if ego is the goal, the product will suffer.
If short term profit and ego boosts are primary, you get Microsoft. We've
had enough of that I think.
If his product will place Linux on the
non-technical users' desktops, then that's great. If it won't, then
something else must if Linux is ever to be seriously competitive.
Know something funny about the idea of "being competitive?"
I don't *care. "Competitive" these days means "enables the marketing twits
to ***** computer illiterate CEOs" and "yields short term gains that
boost the year end bonus of the CFO."
Linux and the associated projects are gaining ground because the people
doing the work are concerned *first with building something useful that
works. Why are they doing it? Because they want to. Because they want some
software or other for themselves. Because they are *not aiming at being
"competitive."
Being "competitive" gave us Microsoft. I remain unimpressed.
Old
time Linux users will find reasons to ***** about any Linux product that
brings Linux to the masses. Remember, it's not for you!
Wanna bet?
What we, today, call "Linux" began as a big, international "do it
yourself" project. Thousands of people who thought "I wish we had software
that did X" or "I wish we had an OS that wasn't a big pile of spaghetti
code." Things like that.
If Linux only ever serves the needs of the people who built it, it is a
"success." If other people find it useful, that's nice but it's a side
effect.
It's for your
mother-in-law, the one who can't scan for viruses, can't install a
printer, can't edit a simple text file.
No, I'm sorry but people don't seem to really understand what this whole
FS/OSS thing is about.
A for profit company "owes" something to the public because they're asking
for money. The FS/OSS communities owe *nothing to the public. They're not
asking for anything. They're doing for themselves.
A distribution company such as Mandrake or RedHat may owe you something.
But they're asking you to *pay them. Linus Torvalds owes people *nothing.
Which is exactly what he's "earned" off Linux.
Let's take just one "for instance." I use Pan for Usenet. I paid exactly
nothing for it. The folks who worked on and are working on Pan have earned
exactly nothing.
What, exactly, do they "owe" me?
Lance Armstrong has a sophisticated bike that cost tens of thousands, I'm
sure. I have an old single speed I use on the boardwalk. Which is
better? What's it going to be used for?
And if someone gave you the bike for free and you found it didn't "suit
your needs," you would demand they build better free bikes and give you
one?
Linux will "get there." It's just not going to happen overnight. Windows
took *years to reach decent usability...
I hope so. How long must we wait?
Long as it takes. Which could be forever. Maybe it'll *never suit your
needs.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
|
|
|
| User: "Enkidu" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
29 Jul 2004 09:48:17 AM |
|
|
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:17:58 -0700 in episode
<yuWNc.10463$mg6.8314@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:38:24 -0700 in episode
<ZDQNc.10421$mg6.9449@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
<snipping for space>
I know old time Linux users often HATE Linspire/Lindows. But if you
want to elbow into the OS desktop market, somebody has got to smooth the
edges off the transition. Linspire? Maybe, maybe not. But somebody
has got to make it possible for my mom and millions like her to use
Linux for email, digital pix and such common tasks.
But Linspire isn't about *that. It's much more about one man's ego.
The work on the (many) projects to make Linux useful on the desktop
started before the CEO of Linspire started yapping at Gates. And would
continue if Linspire vanished. More, Linspire is building on the work of
others and can't take all *that much credit for what they offer.
All true, and not to the point. I don't care about his motivation. I
care about his product.
Problem being, IMO, is that if ego is the goal, the product will suffer.
If short term profit and ego boosts are primary, you get Microsoft. We've
had enough of that I think.
You could be right. If the product sucks because of his ego, though,
the problem is that the product sucks. Drive and ego are the basis for
most achievements, so don't discount it.
If his product will place Linux on the
non-technical users' desktops, then that's great. If it won't, then
something else must if Linux is ever to be seriously competitive.
Know something funny about the idea of "being competitive?"
I don't *care. "Competitive" these days means "enables the marketing twits
to ***** computer illiterate CEOs" and "yields short term gains that
boost the year end bonus of the CFO."
That is not the sense I meant when I used the word "competitive". I
meant "a real alternative for everyone with a computer".
Linux and the associated projects are gaining ground because the people
doing the work are concerned *first with building something useful that
works. Why are they doing it? Because they want to. Because they want some
software or other for themselves. Because they are *not aiming at being
"competitive."
Being "competitive" gave us Microsoft. I remain unimpressed.
And it gave us Southwest Airlines too. I'd suggest that Microsoft has
little to do with competition. Most users see no alternative, and
haven't for a generation.
Old
time Linux users will find reasons to ***** about any Linux product that
brings Linux to the masses. Remember, it's not for you!
Wanna bet?
What we, today, call "Linux" began as a big, international "do it
yourself" project. Thousands of people who thought "I wish we had software
that did X" or "I wish we had an OS that wasn't a big pile of spaghetti
code." Things like that.
If Linux only ever serves the needs of the people who built it, it is a
"success." If other people find it useful, that's nice but it's a side
effect.
And Da Vinci painted so he'd have pretty pictures in his house. Crap.
The people who built Linux are talented artists. Sure, they may start
for themselves, but having your peers in the movement use you work has
got to be as a major motivating factor. I grant that some may get
pissed when a company sells their work and they get nothing.
It's for your
mother-in-law, the one who can't scan for viruses, can't install a
printer, can't edit a simple text file.
No, I'm sorry but people don't seem to really understand what this whole
FS/OSS thing is about.
A for profit company "owes" something to the public because they're asking
for money. The FS/OSS communities owe *nothing to the public. They're not
asking for anything. They're doing for themselves.
They "owe" nothing to anyone. But I can't believe they don't get kicks
out of building a better product and seeing it spread. They are
talented humans. Seeing others use your work has got to be a motivation.
A distribution company such as Mandrake or RedHat may owe you something.
But they're asking you to *pay them. Linus Torvalds owes people *nothing.
Which is exactly what he's "earned" off Linux.
Wrong. He's earned the respect of his peers around the world. Isn't
that worth something?
Let's take just one "for instance." I use Pan for Usenet. I paid exactly
nothing for it. The folks who worked on and are working on Pan have earned
exactly nothing.
They've earned the respect of their peers and users.
What, exactly, do they "owe" me?
Nothing. You owe them some respect. I expect that's all they'd ask of you.
Lance Armstrong has a sophisticated bike that cost tens of thousands, I'm
sure. I have an old single speed I use on the boardwalk. Which is
better? What's it going to be used for?
And if someone gave you the bike for free and you found it didn't "suit
your needs," you would demand they build better free bikes and give you
one?
Nope. I'd get a bike that better suited me from among the choices I had.
Linux will "get there." It's just not going to happen overnight. Windows
took *years to reach decent usability...
I hope so. How long must we wait?
Long as it takes. Which could be forever. Maybe it'll *never suit your
needs.
I don't like that. Microsoft forever?
--
Enkidu
aa 2165
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without
having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of
it too?"
--Douglas Adams
Now playing . . .
.
|
|
|
| User: "Matty" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
29 Jul 2004 11:21:48 PM |
|
|
On 30/7/04 12:48 AM, in article J68Oc.14053$mg6.5168@fed1read02, "Enkidu"
<enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
Problem being, IMO, is that if ego is the goal, the product will suffer.
If short term profit and ego boosts are primary, you get Microsoft. We've
had enough of that I think.
You could be right. If the product sucks because of his ego, though,
the problem is that the product sucks. Drive and ego are the basis for
most achievements, so don't discount it.
Well, the thing is which I stress; what is lacking on fedora which Lindows
offers? Infact, what is Lindows offering that is better than Xandros? IMHO,
if I were to suggest a distro, I would suggest either Xandros if you're
willing to pay for a distro or Fedora, which I have running a crappy IBM
Netvista with a K6 550Mhz w/ 256MB RAM, SIS540 Graphics card which uses 16MB
shared graphics memory. The performance is better than the same machine
running Windows 2000, and the stability is excellent.
Linux and the associated projects are gaining ground because the people
doing the work are concerned *first with building something useful that
works. Why are they doing it? Because they want to. Because they want some
software or other for themselves. Because they are *not aiming at being
"competitive."
Being "competitive" gave us Microsoft. I remain unimpressed.
And it gave us Southwest Airlines too. I'd suggest that Microsoft has
little to do with competition. Most users see no alternative, and
haven't for a generation.
There were alternatives, 20 years ago, we had Atari, Amstrad and Amiga, the
end user made their choice, now they bent over for good old Microsoft,
they're now blaming all 'n sundry because they're now getting exploited.
The fact is, the end user only had themselves to blamed for being turned
into Microsoft's *****.
Matty
--
My blog: http://kaiwai.blogspot.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
30 Jul 2004 08:44:53 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:21:48 +1000 in episode
<BD3009FC.6324%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
There were alternatives, 20 years ago, we had Atari, Amstrad and Amiga,
the end user made their choice, now they bent over for good old Microsoft,
they're now blaming all 'n sundry because they're now getting exploited.
The fact is, the end user only had themselves to blamed for being turned
into Microsoft's *****.
That's true. They just couldn't get enough of being screwed over by Gates.
And would argue with you if you suggested there was a better way...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
|
|
|
| User: "Matty" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
31 Jul 2004 12:55:51 AM |
|
|
On 30/7/04 11:44 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.30.13.44.52.961538@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:21:48 +1000 in episode
<BD3009FC.6324%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
There were alternatives, 20 years ago, we had Atari, Amstrad and Amiga,
the end user made their choice, now they bent over for good old Microsoft,
they're now blaming all 'n sundry because they're now getting exploited.
The fact is, the end user only had themselves to blamed for being turned
into Microsoft's *****.
That's true. They just couldn't get enough of being screwed over by Gates.
And would argue with you if you suggested there was a better way...
Well, the only way for MS to be "overthrown" is for Joe and Jane bloggs to
embrace the alternatives and say, "hey, I don't mind having to relearn some
things, I don't mind that I can't get an exact software title on Linux"; the
problem is, however, the average user is lazy, and thus with the laziness is
a reluctance to relearn skills.
On the good side, if SUN keeps moving forward with the JDS desktop, end
users will eventually decide to move their home PC's from Windows to JDS so
that they're "compatible" with what they run at work.
Matty
--
My blog: http://kaiwai.blogspot.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
31 Jul 2004 10:40:24 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:55:51 +1000 in episode
<BD317187.6470%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 30/7/04 11:44 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.30.13.44.52.961538@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:21:48 +1000 in episode
<BD3009FC.6324%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
There were alternatives, 20 years ago, we had Atari, Amstrad and Amiga,
the end user made their choice, now they bent over for good old
Microsoft, they're now blaming all 'n sundry because they're now
getting exploited.
The fact is, the end user only had themselves to blamed for being
turned into Microsoft's *****.
That's true. They just couldn't get enough of being screwed over by
Gates. And would argue with you if you suggested there was a better
way...
Well, the only way for MS to be "overthrown" is for Joe and Jane bloggs to
embrace the alternatives and say, "hey, I don't mind having to relearn
some things, I don't mind that I can't get an exact software title on
Linux"; the problem is, however, the average user is lazy, and thus with
the laziness is a reluctance to relearn skills.
On the good side, if SUN keeps moving forward with the JDS desktop, end
users will eventually decide to move their home PC's from Windows to JDS
so that they're "compatible" with what they run at work.
If Linux is going to become "dominant" (which seems to be something a few
people worry about as they don't seem to have anything better to do) would
be to take the "back office" and, eventually, people would migrate to be
compatible with work.
And, wouldn't you know, Linux is making gains the "back office" to beat
sixty these days...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
|
|
|
| User: "Matty" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
01 Aug 2004 01:51:51 AM |
|
|
On 1/8/04 1:40 AM, in article pan.2004.07.31.15.40.24.92592@org.webmaster,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:55:51 +1000 in episode
<BD317187.6470%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 30/7/04 11:44 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.30.13.44.52.961538@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:21:48 +1000 in episode
<BD3009FC.6324%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
There were alternatives, 20 years ago, we had Atari, Amstrad and Amiga,
the end user made their choice, now they bent over for good old
Microsoft, they're now blaming all 'n sundry because they're now
getting exploited.
The fact is, the end user only had themselves to blamed for being
turned into Microsoft's *****.
That's true. They just couldn't get enough of being screwed over by
Gates. And would argue with you if you suggested there was a better
way...
Well, the only way for MS to be "overthrown" is for Joe and Jane bloggs to
embrace the alternatives and say, "hey, I don't mind having to relearn
some things, I don't mind that I can't get an exact software title on
Linux"; the problem is, however, the average user is lazy, and thus with
the laziness is a reluctance to relearn skills.
On the good side, if SUN keeps moving forward with the JDS desktop, end
users will eventually decide to move their home PC's from Windows to JDS
so that they're "compatible" with what they run at work.
If Linux is going to become "dominant" (which seems to be something a few
people worry about as they don't seem to have anything better to do) would
be to take the "back office" and, eventually, people would migrate to be
compatible with work.
And, wouldn't you know, Linux is making gains the "back office" to beat
sixty these days...
True, isn't it nice to see that UNIX was kicked out in favour of Windows,
and now people are kicking and screaming to get UNIX (be it Linux) back into
the back office again.
As I've always said, UNIX will always hang around, may not be in the same
form, but it will rear its head in the future, Linux just so happen to be
the form that UNIX is re-emerging as.
As for Solaris, nice to see that SUN has released that Solaris + their
hardware is what is going to make them competitive, having seen their quad
Opteron servers with Solaris plus the offer of 1 year free JES subscription,
one would have to be crazy to deploy Windows, even crazier to deploy Windows
onto desktops considering the deep discounts one gets if one uses JES in
conjunction with JDS.
Matty
Ps. No, I'm not a sun sales rep ;-)
--
My Blog: http://kaiwai.blogspot.com
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Matty" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
29 Jul 2004 11:04:24 PM |
|
|
On 29/7/04 11:57 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.29.13.57.08.643705@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:17:58 -0700 in episode
<yuWNc.10463$mg6.8314@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:38:24 -0700 in episode
<ZDQNc.10421$mg6.9449@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
<snipping for space>
I know old time Linux users often HATE Linspire/Lindows. But if you
want to elbow into the OS desktop market, somebody has got to smooth the
edges off the transition. Linspire? Maybe, maybe not. But somebody
has got to make it possible for my mom and millions like her to use
Linux for email, digital pix and such common tasks.
But Linspire isn't about *that. It's much more about one man's ego.
The work on the (many) projects to make Linux useful on the desktop
started before the CEO of Linspire started yapping at Gates. And would
continue if Linspire vanished. More, Linspire is building on the work of
others and can't take all *that much credit for what they offer.
All true, and not to the point. I don't care about his motivation. I
care about his product.
Problem being, IMO, is that if ego is the goal, the product will suffer.
If short term profit and ego boosts are primary, you get Microsoft. We've
had enough of that I think.
Kinda like how Michael tried to make out that he invented MP3 and the whole
idea of using MP3 for sharing audio.
If his product will place Linux on the
non-technical users' desktops, then that's great. If it won't, then
something else must if Linux is ever to be seriously competitive.
Know something funny about the idea of "being competitive?"
I don't *care. "Competitive" these days means "enables the marketing twits
to ***** computer illiterate CEOs" and "yields short term gains that
boost the year end bonus of the CFO."
Linux and the associated projects are gaining ground because the people
doing the work are concerned *first with building something useful that
works. Why are they doing it? Because they want to. Because they want some
software or other for themselves. Because they are *not aiming at being
"competitive."
Being "competitive" gave us Microsoft. I remain unimpressed.
Bringing Linux to desktop is also opening up a can of worms that many don't
realise, the fact that Linux IS different, the fact remains, it will never
be like Windows, no matter how much parasites like Michael from Lindows
would love to make out.
Matty
--
My blog: http://kaiwai.blogspot.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
31 Jul 2004 10:38:52 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:04:24 +1000 in episode
<BD3005E8.631F%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 29/7/04 11:57 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.29.13.57.08.643705@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:17:58 -0700 in episode
<yuWNc.10463$mg6.8314@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:38:24 -0700 in episode
<ZDQNc.10421$mg6.9449@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
<snipping for space>
I know old time Linux users often HATE Linspire/Lindows. But if you
want to elbow into the OS desktop market, somebody has got to smooth
the edges off the transition. Linspire? Maybe, maybe not. But
somebody has got to make it possible for my mom and millions like her
to use Linux for email, digital pix and such common tasks.
But Linspire isn't about *that. It's much more about one man's ego.
The work on the (many) projects to make Linux useful on the desktop
started before the CEO of Linspire started yapping at Gates. And would
continue if Linspire vanished. More, Linspire is building on the work
of others and can't take all *that much credit for what they offer.
All true, and not to the point. I don't care about his motivation. I
care about his product.
Problem being, IMO, is that if ego is the goal, the product will suffer.
If short term profit and ego boosts are primary, you get Microsoft.
We've had enough of that I think.
Kinda like how Michael tried to make out that he invented MP3 and the
whole idea of using MP3 for sharing audio.
I *forgot about that. That *was him wasn't it?
If his product will place Linux on the non-technical users' desktops,
then that's great. If it won't, then something else must if Linux is
ever to be seriously competitive.
Know something funny about the idea of "being competitive?"
I don't *care. "Competitive" these days means "enables the marketing
twits to ***** computer illiterate CEOs" and "yields short term gains
that boost the year end bonus of the CFO."
Linux and the associated projects are gaining ground because the people
doing the work are concerned *first with building something useful that
works. Why are they doing it? Because they want to. Because they want
some software or other for themselves. Because they are *not aiming at
being "competitive."
Being "competitive" gave us Microsoft. I remain unimpressed.
Bringing Linux to desktop is also opening up a can of worms that many
don't realise, the fact that Linux IS different, the fact remains, it will
never be like Windows, no matter how much parasites like Michael from
Lindows would love to make out.
And, frankly, I'm not sure being "like Windows" is such an admirable goal.
I mean, first we'd have to make it crash frequently. Maybe a cron job?
Not sure how we could emulate the Windows security holes. Maybe if
downloaded binaries had the execute bit set? Still wouldn't get them root
access. Suid downloads? Ah, heck with it. How about a cron job that just
randomly corrupts the root partition until, eventually, the system blows?
<G>
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
|
|
|
| User: "Enkidu" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
31 Jul 2004 01:35:48 PM |
|
|
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
Not sure how we could emulate the Windows security holes. Maybe if
downloaded binaries had the execute bit set? Still wouldn't get them root
access. Suid downloads? Ah, heck with it. How about a cron job that just
randomly corrupts the root partition until, eventually, the system blows?
Set the root password to be "default" and expect the user to hunt
through several "options" menus to change it?
--
Enkidu
aa 2165
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without
having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of
it too?"
--Douglas Adams
Now playing . . .
A3 - Let the Caged Bird Sing
.
|
|
|
| User: "No One" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
31 Jul 2004 04:56:41 PM |
|
|
Enkidu <enkidu@leaddogs.org> writes:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
Not sure how we could emulate the Windows security holes. Maybe if
downloaded binaries had the execute bit set? Still wouldn't get them root
access. Suid downloads? Ah, heck with it. How about a cron job that just
randomly corrupts the root partition until, eventually, the system blows?
Set the root password to be "default" and expect the user to hunt
through several "options" menus to change it?
Configure it so you don't need a password at all to log in as root?
People actually do that sometimes - on lab machines in a secure area
used for testing. Windows basically makes this a feature for home
users and naive businesses..:-(
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Matty" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
01 Aug 2004 01:46:54 AM |
|
|
On 1/8/04 1:38 AM, in article pan.2004.07.31.15.38.52.78123@org.webmaster,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:04:24 +1000 in episode
<BD3005E8.631F%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 29/7/04 11:57 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.29.13.57.08.643705@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:17:58 -0700 in episode
<yuWNc.10463$mg6.8314@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:38:24 -0700 in episode
<ZDQNc.10421$mg6.9449@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
<snipping for space>
I know old time Linux users often HATE Linspire/Lindows. But if you
want to elbow into the OS desktop market, somebody has got to smooth
the edges off the transition. Linspire? Maybe, maybe not. But
somebody has got to make it possible for my mom and millions like her
to use Linux for email, digital pix and such common tasks.
But Linspire isn't about *that. It's much more about one man's ego.
The work on the (many) projects to make Linux useful on the desktop
started before the CEO of Linspire started yapping at Gates. And would
continue if Linspire vanished. More, Linspire is building on the work
of others and can't take all *that much credit for what they offer.
All true, and not to the point. I don't care about his motivation. I
care about his product.
Problem being, IMO, is that if ego is the goal, the product will suffer.
If short term profit and ego boosts are primary, you get Microsoft.
We've had enough of that I think.
Kinda like how Michael tried to make out that he invented MP3 and the
whole idea of using MP3 for sharing audio.
I *forgot about that. That *was him wasn't it?
Yeap, Michael, the one who started MP3.com claiming to be the guru of sound
compression, the one who would hype and hype something until it was dead,
then shove the carcus on a poll, and continue hyping it.
Michael is nothing more than an attention seeking brat hoping that some
sucker will purchase his little Lindows "empire" once Linux becomes popular.
Lindows isn't in for the long hall, its in just to make Michael look big.
If his product will place Linux on the non-technical users' desktops,
then that's great. If it won't, then something else must if Linux is
ever to be seriously competitive.
Know something funny about the idea of "being competitive?"
I don't *care. "Competitive" these days means "enables the marketing
twits to ***** computer illiterate CEOs" and "yields short term gains
that boost the year end bonus of the CFO."
Linux and the associated projects are gaining ground because the people
doing the work are concerned *first with building something useful that
works. Why are they doing it? Because they want to. Because they want
some software or other for themselves. Because they are *not aiming at
being "competitive."
Being "competitive" gave us Microsoft. I remain unimpressed.
Bringing Linux to desktop is also opening up a can of worms that many
don't realise, the fact that Linux IS different, the fact remains, it will
never be like Windows, no matter how much parasites like Michael from
Lindows would love to make out.
And, frankly, I'm not sure being "like Windows" is such an admirable goal.
I mean, first we'd have to make it crash frequently. Maybe a cron job?
Not sure how we could emulate the Windows security holes. Maybe if
downloaded binaries had the execute bit set? Still wouldn't get them root
access. Suid downloads? Ah, heck with it. How about a cron job that just
randomly corrupts the root partition until, eventually, the system blows?
<G>
LOL, na, its this fascination by some OSS who believe that we should make a
clone of Windows by emulating its look 'n feel; quite frankly, having used
MacOS X, the very last OS they should be trying to emulate is Microsoft
Windows.
If there ever was a good project, it would be to use the GNUStep core and
build a MacOS look 'n feel desktop from it so it resembles something close
to what the first MacOS X Server look liked when it was first released.
Matty
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
01 Aug 2004 09:07:31 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 16:46:54 +1000 in episode
<BD32CEFE.3576%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 1/8/04 1:38 AM, in article pan.2004.07.31.15.38.52.78123@org.webmaster,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:04:24 +1000 in episode
<BD3005E8.631F%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 29/7/04 11:57 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.29.13.57.08.643705@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:17:58 -0700 in episode
<yuWNc.10463$mg6.8314@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:38:24 -0700 in episode
<ZDQNc.10421$mg6.9449@fed1read02> we saw our hero Enkidu
<enkidu@leaddogs.org>:
<snipping for space>
I know old time Linux users often HATE Linspire/Lindows. But if
you want to elbow into the OS desktop market, somebody has got to
smooth the edges off the transition. Linspire? Maybe, maybe not.
But somebody has got to make it possible for my mom and millions
like her to use Linux for email, digital pix and such common tasks.
But Linspire isn't about *that. It's much more about one man's ego.
The work on the (many) projects to make Linux useful on the desktop
started before the CEO of Linspire started yapping at Gates. And
would continue if Linspire vanished. More, Linspire is building on
the work of others and can't take all *that much credit for what
they offer.
All true, and not to the point. I don't care about his motivation.
I care about his product.
Problem being, IMO, is that if ego is the goal, the product will
suffer. If short term profit and ego boosts are primary, you get
Microsoft. We've had enough of that I think.
Kinda like how Michael tried to make out that he invented MP3 and the
whole idea of using MP3 for sharing audio.
I *forgot about that. That *was him wasn't it?
Yeap, Michael, the one who started MP3.com claiming to be the guru of
sound compression, the one who would hype and hype something until it was
dead, then shove the carcus on a poll, and continue hyping it.
I had forgotten about that. No wonder that man is so annoying on the
mailing list.
(I filled in the settlement thing for my old Win '98 and Office '97 with
Lindows and got a free Lindows just to ***** MS off. They *were mad about
that one. <eg> Anyway, that put me on Michael's "I'm so cool I could just
pee" mailing list. BLEAH. Talk about hunting down the unsub option post
haste.)
Michael is nothing more than an attention seeking brat hoping that some
sucker will purchase his little Lindows "empire" once Linux becomes
popular. Lindows isn't in for the long hall, its in just to make Michael
look big.
If his product will place Linux on the non-technical users' desktops,
then that's great. If it won't, then something else must if Linux is
ever to be seriously competitive.
Know something funny about the idea of "being competitive?"
I don't *care. "Competitive" these days means "enables the marketing
twits to ***** computer illiterate CEOs" and "yields short term
gains that boost the year end bonus of the CFO."
Linux and the associated projects are gaining ground because the
people doing the work are concerned *first with building something
useful that works. Why are they doing it? Because they want to.
Because they want some software or other for themselves. Because they
are *not aiming at being "competitive."
Being "competitive" gave us Microsoft. I remain unimpressed.
Bringing Linux to desktop is also opening up a can of worms that many
don't realise, the fact that Linux IS different, the fact remains, it
will never be like Windows, no matter how much parasites like Michael
from Lindows would love to make out.
And, frankly, I'm not sure being "like Windows" is such an admirable
goal. I mean, first we'd have to make it crash frequently. Maybe a cron
job?
Not sure how we could emulate the Windows security holes. Maybe if
downloaded binaries had the execute bit set? Still wouldn't get them
root access. Suid downloads? Ah, heck with it. How about a cron job that
just randomly corrupts the root partition until, eventually, the system
blows? <G>
LOL, na, its this fascination by some OSS who believe that we should make
a clone of Windows by emulating its look 'n feel; quite frankly, having
used MacOS X, the very last OS they should be trying to emulate is
Microsoft Windows.
Which is why I really just *cannot* stand KDE. <g>
If there ever was a good project, it would be to use the GNUStep core and
build a MacOS look 'n feel desktop from it so it resembles something close
to what the first MacOS X Server look liked when it was first released.
Never saw the server myself. Though, really, there was a lot in general
worth emulating in the *old Apple...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Matty" |
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| Title: Re: Linux |
02 Aug 2004 12:43:03 AM |
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On 2/8/04 12:07 PM, in article pan.2004.08.02.02.07.30.808396@org.webmaster,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 16:46:54 +1000 in episode
<BD32CEFE.3576%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
Yeap, Michael, the one who started MP3.com claiming to be the guru of
sound compression, the one who would hype and hype something until it was
dead, then shove the carcus on a poll, and continue hyping it.
I had forgotten about that. No wonder that man is so annoying on the
mailing list.
(I filled in the settlement thing for my old Win '98 and Office '97 with
Lindows and got a free Lindows just to ***** MS off. They *were mad about
that one. <eg> Anyway, that put me on Michael's "I'm so cool I could just
pee" mailing list. BLEAH. Talk about hunting down the unsub option post
haste.)
Well, I remember when Lindows started up, it was meant to be the Linux that
allowed one to run every Windows application out of the box; they realised
quickly that it would be a pipe dream; too bad Michael keeps trying to make
out that it is possible; too bad Michael is a ego-driven moron who is simply
in there for the quick buck.
LOL, na, its this fascination by some OSS who believe that we should make
a clone of Windows by emulating its look 'n feel; quite frankly, having
used MacOS X, the very last OS they should be trying to emulate is
Microsoft Windows.
Which is why I really just *cannot* stand KDE. <g>
True; the default theme is terrible. Mind you, the parents don't mind Fedora
2 default desktop and theme.
If there ever was a good project, it would be to use the GNUStep core and
build a MacOS look 'n feel desktop from it so it resembles something close
to what the first MacOS X Server look liked when it was first released.
Never saw the server myself. Though, really, there was a lot in general
worth emulating in the *old Apple...
The old MacOS X 1.0 was really nice; still used the old postscript
interface:
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/FirstImpressions/MacOSXServerIntro/
Has some good screenshots, resembles a revved up MacOS Classic.
Matty
--
My Blog: http://kaiwai.blogspot.com
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| User: "Matty" |
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| Title: Re: Linux |
28 Jul 2004 08:08:15 AM |
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On 28/7/04 10:43 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.28.12.43.42.201579@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:27:06 +1000 in episode
<BD2DA07A.30AB%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
IIRC, they no longer have absolute root, instead they've using SELinux
modules which IIRC has no root as such; the security is much finer
grained.
That would be *much better. I confess I haven't kept up with them much
lately. Honestly, I was never that impressed with them. But if they've
straightened out their security, they could be a decent "consumer" Linux.
My axe to grind with Lindows had more to do with their whole
hype-promise-lie cycle. They promised and hyped but never delivered, IMHO,
Lindows would better off doing is licensing commercial product source code,
like how Loki Games did, port the source code to Linux then resell it.
That would be a better business model than producing yet ANOTHER
distribution.
Matty
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Linux |
28 Jul 2004 08:38:36 AM |
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On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:08:15 +1000 in episode
<BD2DE25F.60B6%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 28/7/04 10:43 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.28.12.43.42.201579@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:27:06 +1000 in episode
<BD2DA07A.30AB%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
IIRC, they no longer have absolute root, instead they've using SELinux
modules which IIRC has no root as such; the security is much finer
grained.
That would be *much better. I confess I haven't kept up with them much
lately. Honestly, I was never that impressed with them. But if they've
straightened out their security, they could be a decent "consumer"
Linux.
My axe to grind with Lindows had more to do with their whole
hype-promise-lie cycle. They promised and hyped but never delivered, IMHO,
Lindows would better off doing is licensing commercial product source
code, like how Loki Games did, port the source code to Linux then resell
it.
That would be a better business model than producing yet ANOTHER
distribution.
True. I mean, do we really need *another distro? <g>
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
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| User: "Matty" |
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| Title: Re: Linux |
28 Jul 2004 10:42:56 AM |
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On 28/7/04 11:38 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.28.13.38.35.469749@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:08:15 +1000 in episode
<BD2DE25F.60B6%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 28/7/04 10:43 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.28.12.43.42.201579@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:27:06 +1000 in episode
<BD2DA07A.30AB%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
IIRC, they no longer have absolute root, instead they've using SELinux
modules which IIRC has no root as such; the security is much finer
grained.
That would be *much better. I confess I haven't kept up with them much
lately. Honestly, I was never that impressed with them. But if they've
straightened out their security, they could be a decent "consumer"
Linux.
My axe to grind with Lindows had more to do with their whole
hype-promise-lie cycle. They promised and hyped but never delivered, IMHO,
Lindows would better off doing is licensing commercial product source
code, like how Loki Games did, port the source code to Linux then resell
it.
That would be a better business model than producing yet ANOTHER
distribution.
True. I mean, do we really need *another distro? <g>
Good lord know, the number of distros out there out number the number of
crappy replies that exist on this newsgroup by bigots.
Personally I can't stand Red Hat and Red Hat like distros, give me a nice
clean Slackware, partially due to the fact that I'm a BSD/Solaris man, but
ultimately, it makes little sense with each distro re-inventing the wheel,
but then again, ultimately the Linux world is polarised around Red Hat and
Novell/SuSE and ultimately what there needs to be for the desktop, however,
is a standardised base, that is, everything standardised on one core from
the kernel up to the X server, then from the X server up, let the vendor
decide what desktop, how to customise it, what setup tools to create etc.
meaning one *could* have a number of vendors by remain compatible with each
other.
Matty
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Linux |
29 Jul 2004 09:03:09 AM |
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On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:42:56 +1000 in episode
<BD2E06A0.610B%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 28/7/04 11:38 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.28.13.38.35.469749@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:08:15 +1000 in episode
<BD2DE25F.60B6%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
On 28/7/04 10:43 PM, in article
pan.2004.07.28.12.43.42.201579@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:27:06 +1000 in episode
<BD2DA07A.30AB%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
IIRC, they no longer have absolute root, instead they've using
SELinux modules which IIRC has no root as such; the security is much
finer grained.
That would be *much better. I confess I haven't kept up with them much
lately. Honestly, I was never that impressed with them. But if they've
straightened out their security, they could be a decent "consumer"
Linux.
My axe to grind with Lindows had more to do with their whole
hype-promise-lie cycle. They promised and hyped but never delivered,
IMHO, Lindows would better off doing is licensing commercial product
source code, like how Loki Games did, port the source code to Linux
then resell it.
That would be a better business model than producing yet ANOTHER
distribution.
True. I mean, do we really need *another distro? <g>
Good lord know, the number of distros out there out number the number of
crappy replies that exist on this newsgroup by bigots.
At least. And every time you turn around, there's *another one starting up.
Personally I can't stand Red Hat and Red Hat like distros, give me a nice
clean Slackware, partially due to the fact that I'm a BSD/Solaris man, but
<shudder>
Please don't use the "S" word around me. I had to deal with the beast that
came from Sun at this one company and it drove me *nuts. <G>
ultimately, it makes little sense with each distro re-inventing the wheel,
but then again, ultimately the Linux world is polarised around Red Hat and
Novell/SuSE and ultimately what there needs to be for the desktop,
however, is a standardised base, that is, everything standardised on one
core from the kernel up to the X server, then from the X server up, let
the vendor decide what desktop, how to customise it, what setup tools to
create etc. meaning one *could* have a number of vendors by remain
compatible with each other.
There seems to be movement in that direction at least. The LSB is being
fairly well adhered to. Freedesktop.org is getting some traction (and
proving "miracles" do happen, they seem to have managed a "cease fire"
between the KDE and Gnome camps <G>).
At least in the Linux world there's a lot less of that marketing
department driven "differentiation" that fragmented Unix so badly. Distro
companies that wander too far off the general "path" can find themselves
being left behind...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
.
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| User: "Matty" |
|
| Title: Re: Linux |
29 Jul 2004 11:12:11 PM |
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On 30/7/04 12:03 AM, in article pan.2004.07.29.14.03.08.20795@org.webmaster,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:42:56 +1000 in episode
<BD2E06A0.610B%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
Good lord know, the number of distros out there out number the number of
crappy replies that exist on this newsgroup by bigots.
At least. And every time you turn around, there's *another one starting up.
Lord, that reminds me of the dot-con boom where it was Linux-this, dot-con
that; hype with no substance.
Personally I can't stand Red Hat and Red Hat like distros, give me a nice
clean Slackware, partially due to the fact that I'm a BSD/Solaris man, but
<shudder>
Please don't use the "S" word around me. I had to deal with the beast that
came from Sun at this one company and it drove me *nuts. <G>
LOL, the only problem I had with Solaris was on x86 and its crappy hardware
support; as I said on the x86-Solaris mailing list, the only thing holding
Solaris back on x86 is its crappy hardware support.
ultimately, it makes little sense with each distro re-inventing the wheel,
but then again, ultimately the Linux world is polarised around Red Hat and
Novell/SuSE and ultimately what there needs to be for the desktop,
however, is a standardised base, that is, everything standardised on one
core from the kernel up to the X server, then from the X server up, let
the vendor decide what desktop, how to customise it, what setup tools to
create etc. meaning one *could* have a number of vendors by remain
compatible with each other.
There seems to be movement in that direction at least. The LSB is being
fairly well adhered to. Freedesktop.org is getting some traction (and
proving "miracles" do happen, they seem to have managed a "cease fire"
between the KDE and Gnome camps <G>).
True, if there is ultimately two stqndards, freedesktop.org and LSB, then
life will be much nicer later on, however, I do have a problem with RPM
being used as the default package format for LSB, IMHO they should have
either chosen DEB or that new package format; autopkg?
At least in the Linux world there's a lot less of that marketing
department driven "differentiation" that fragmented Unix so badly. Distro
companies that wander too far off the general "path" can find themselves
being left behind...
True, mind you, the one that has grabbed a lot of traction is the Sun
distro, JDS, OSS fanboys may hate it, but lets remember it has grabbed in
the small time it has been made available, over 300,000 users are now using
JDS full time as their desktop, and it continues to grow.
Matty
--
My blog: http://kaiwai.blogspot.com
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Linux |
31 Jul 2004 10:47:26 AM |
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On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:12:11 +1000 in episode
<BD3007BB.6322%kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au> we saw our hero Matty
<kaiwainz@yahoo.com.au>:
<setting follow-up to alt.atheism only>
On 30/7/04 12:03 AM, in article
pan.2004.07.29.14.03.08.20795@org.webmaster, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
There seems to be movement in that direction at least. The LSB is being
fairly well adhered to. Freedesktop.org is getting some traction (and
proving "miracles" do happen, they seem to have managed a "cease fire"
between the KDE and Gnome camps <G>).
True, if there is ultimately two stqndards, freedesktop.org and LSB, then
life will be much nicer later on, however, I do have a problem with RPM
being used as the default package format for LSB, IMHO they should have
either chosen DEB or that new package format; autopkg?
I'm with you. I have grown to *hate RPMs. RedHat and their "better ideas."
Sheesh.
Don't know much about DEB but hear nothing but good about it. I've
actually gotten rather "retro." I want source. Nothing but source. <G>
At least in the Linux world there's a lot less of that marketing
department driven "differentiation" that fragmented Unix so badly.
Distro companies that wander too far off the general "path" can find
themselves being left behind...
True, mind you, the one that has grabbed a lot of traction is the Sun
distro, JDS, OSS fanboys may hate it, but lets remember it has grabbed
in the small time it has been made available, over 300,000 users are now
using JDS full time as their desktop, and it continues to grow.
I dunno. Sun *says it's grabbing traction. But they would. I'm taking a
"wait and see" on that one. I'm not all that hostile to JDS. I think the
name is silly. It's *Gnome* already. They just *had to name it
Java-something.
Long as they play by the rules, though, I don't see much reason to be
bothered by Sun entering the desktop game. Now, if they try to run off
with things and go proprietary, they deserve what they get. <eg>
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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