"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote a lot regarding
a book with web links to graphic displays of issues
of import to most humans, the last of those 3 posts
regarding ...

Is Anybody Out There? [...]

Thanks for posting these, very interesting. Are you suggesting any
of this indicates that there isn't a God, or at least some type of
dualistic universe?

If you are, then let me put forward some evidence that a dualistic
universe exists, and you can let me know where anything you said
contradicts.

Firstly there is the fact that mankind has shown an intuition of there
being a dualistic universe, across all cultures.

Obviously this is not proof, but arguably evidence.

Guessing you'd want something a little more scientific though,
given the theme of the post.

So how about we consider whether the universe we live in is
governed by deterministic laws.

I'm paraphrasing a definition of determinism from Jean Bricmont
here:

For the physical system of the universe to be deterministic, there
would have to be a function which could map the initial state at say
t(start) to the state at t(now) and to the state at t(hundred years
time). If we ran the universe program again, and it was able to map
the same initial state at t(start) to a different state at t(now) it would
be indeterministic.

If we live in a deterministic universe, any randomness that we
observe, is down to our ignorance of the laws that determine the
universe, and/or the state the universe is in. As the definition states,
there is only one fixed path that everything will take. We might not
be able to predict what that path will be, but it is determined from
the state at the start of the universe, by the laws that govern it.

So if this is the case (without any type of spirtual plane), it means
that we have no real choice, in that what we do, everything was
predetermined. So hypothetically, if I knew the initial state, and the
laws that governed the universe, and had some means to calculate,
then I could predict exactly what you were going to do. You would
be unable to do something different. There would be no 'freedom'
in your decisions. If you killed someone, then you were predestined
to, at no point could you have done something different to your
destiny.

An (admittedly rather poor) analogy would be looking out the back
of a train at the countryside as it passes. You wouldn't know what
is ahead, but (from the atheist perspective) would accept that the
train is on tracks, it can't detour from the route of the prelaid out
tracks.

The evidence here then for a spiritual plane, and something above
the laws that govern the world, is our intuition that we do actually
have a choice, and that the future is not fixed.

Let us suppose that we live in an indeterministic universe, where
there is randomness (effects without causes). The history of
science shows that effects have causes. If there is an effect with
no cause, then it would seem to be very strong evidence of a God.

As what other explanation is there for that effect? The weight of
scientific history is behind this one. It would suggest there is some
cause behind the effect. If there is a scientific explanation behind
the effect (and we just don't know it), then we are back to the
deterministic universe again, and choice is an illusion.

So question as to whether there is something outside of the laws
that govern this universe is simply the question "do I have a choice?"

I am not saying this is proof, but I would say that there is evidence
(your own intuition that you have a choice), that there is something
outside of the physical laws that govern this universe.

What if the future isn't fixed, and we do, as our intuition suggests,
have a choice?

It would seem that we must live in a universe that is deterministic up
until choice is demonstrated. This would obviously imply a dualistic
view of the universe. A common explanation of the dualistic view is
that there is a God.

In the scenario where the dualistic nature of the universe is explained
by God, the deterministic laws that govern the universe would simply
be rules laid down by the Creator. Presumably, the start of the
universe would be the initial thought that created the universe. This
evidences that you have presented would all fit in so far with this I
think.

So as a side issue, if the universe is deterministic up until choice
was demonstrated, from the state at t(start), the state at t(before
choice was demonstrated) would also be known.

If you were God, and you created the universe, where would you
start it from? Personally I'd start it at in the state at t(before choice
was demonstrated), I wouldn't start it in the state at t(start), and
then just sit and watch the inevitable, it would be boring.

You might not believe in a dualistic universe, but then in your opinion
I guess, you must just think that you were destined not to.