| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"El Shaddup" |
| Date: |
31 Jul 2007 03:16:26 AM |
| Object: |
Very important question |
Why is the Christian God so bloodthirsty?
Why did he have so much wrath that was only satisfied by Jesus shedding his
blood?
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| User: "James" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
09 Sep 2007 01:23:08 PM |
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"El Shaddup" <why-you@i-oughta.com>
Re: Very important question
Why is the Christian God so bloodthirsty?
Why did he have so much wrath that was only satisfied by Jesus shedding his
blood?
Hello,
Don't confuse "bloodthirsty" with judgements on wicked people. When
this country judges criminals, do you call it "bloodthirsty"?
Concerning Jesus shedding his blood, Jesus did that willingly for our
benefit, not his. But why did he volunteer to do it?
The first man, Adam, was perfect. By his disobedience, he lost
perfection for himself, and all of his offspring. He lost his perfect
life in his perfect physical body. Thus it would take another perfect
life in another perfect physical body to gain back what Adam lost.
That person was Jesus. (the only other perfect man to walk this earth)
The scripture at De 19:21 shows God's pattern of thinking:
"... soul will be for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for
hand, foot for foot."
Thus things were to be equal.
At 1 Tim 2:6 it reads, "who gave himself a corresponding ransom for
all-[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times"
(NWT)
Jesus is even called "Adam" in a figurative sense showing the
similarity. 1 Co 15:45 reads,
"So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the
last Adam, a life-giving spirit." (NIV)
So the ransom of Jesus Christ had to be of an equal nature to Adam.
Adam was a man, not a God-man or angel-man. Adam was a perfect human
to start with and showed everyone at the time that a perfect human
would not obey God.
Jesus was a mighty spirit person before he had his personality
transferred to the womb of Mary. At that point he became a perfect man
just like Adam had been before he sinned. Now it could be shown that a
perfect human could remain faithful and obey God. The ransom had to be
a corresponding or equal one.
Sincerely, James
**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads
***********************************
Want a Free home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
11 Sep 2007 11:46:54 PM |
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James said on Sep 9, 11:23 am: ...the ransom of
Jesus Christ had to be of an equal nature to Adam
Rather, the ransom paid by Jesus Christ had to be of
infinite value, for it paid for the sins of the
whole world (Matthew 26:28; 1 John 2:2). Jesus' death
could take the place of the death of all men
(2 Corinthians 5:14) because as God in the flesh
(John 1:1,14) Jesus' death was of infinite value. And
the suffering of Jesus' soul on the cross satisfied
the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11) because as God
Jesus has an infinite soul; when His soul suffered
being forsaken by the Father on the cross (Mark
15:34) it was an infinite suffering, and so able to
take the place of the infinite suffering of all men
in the eternal torment of the lake of fire
(Revelation 20:15, 14:10-11, Mark 9:44).
James said: Jesus was a mighty spirit person before
he had his personality transferred to the womb of
Mary
Jesus was God before He became a man (John 1:1,14);
He was equal to the Father in divinity (Philippians
2:6), uncreated (John 1:3), from everlasting (Micah
5:2). Even after He became a man, Jesus remained
God (Hebrews 1:8; 1 Timothy 3:16), one God with the
Father (John 10:30, 20:28, Titus 2:13).
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
11 Sep 2007 11:54:45 PM |
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On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:46:54 -0700, Read The Bible
<bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
James said on Sep 9, 11:23 am: ...the ransom of
Jesus Christ had to be of an equal nature to Adam
Rather, the ransom paid by Jesus Christ had to be of
infinite value, for it paid for the sins of the
whole world (Matthew 26:28; 1 John 2:2).
Sufficient, yes. God reconciled the world
to Himself. That doesn't make the world saved.
--
To email me, just remove the underscores.
A liberal is someone who will give away everything
except his/her own possessions.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
12 Sep 2007 11:38:14 PM |
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Dave said on Sep 11, 9:54 pm: [Re: 1 John 2:2]
That doesn't make the world saved.
Only a few are saved: "Enter ye in at the strait
gate, for wide is the gate, and broad is the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which
go in thereat; because strait is the gate, and
narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few
there be that find it" (Matthew 7:13-14).
"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord
Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God
hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
-For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made
unto salvation" (Romans 10:9-10).
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel
which I preached unto you, which also ye have
received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are
saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto
you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I
delivered unto you first of all that which I also
received, how that Christ died for our sins
according to the scriptures, and that he was buried,
and that he rose again the third day according to
the scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
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| User: "David Morgan \MAMS" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
12 Sep 2007 11:41:58 PM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in ...
Only a few are saved:
Hogwash.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
31 Jul 2007 04:41:12 AM |
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El Shad... said on July 31, 1:16 am:
Why is the Christian God so bloodthirsty?
Why did he have so much wrath that was only
satisfied by Jesus shedding his blood?
God isn't bloodthirsty. He's love: "God is love"
(1 John 4:8). "God so loved the world, that he gave
his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in
him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
(John 3:16). "For when we were yet without strength,
in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely
for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure
for a good man some would even dare to die. But God
commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:6-8).
In His mercy, God had originally provided Israel with
animal sacrifices as a way to temporarily deal with
sin: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and
I have given it to you upon the altar to make an
atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that
maketh an atonement for the soul" (Leviticus 17:10).
He foretold the time when there would be a human
sacrifice for sin: "All we like sheep have gone
astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He
was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened
not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the
slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is
dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from
prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his
generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the
living: for the transgression of my people was he
stricken.
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And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the
rich in his death; because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased
the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief;
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his
hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and
shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my
righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear
their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a
portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil
with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul
unto death: and he was numbered with the
transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made
intercession for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:6-12).
Jesus willingly sacrificed Himself out of His love
for us: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd
giveth his life for the sheep" (John 10:11);
"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down
my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it
from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power
to lay it down, and I have power to take it again"
(John 10:17-18). "Jesus Christ, who is the faithful
witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the
prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved
us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood"
(Revelation 1:5); "The Son of God, who loved me, and
gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20).
"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and
of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he
cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and
offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou
prepared me: in burnt offerings and sacrifices for
sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I
come (in the volume of the book it is written of me)
to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice
and offering and burnt offerings and offering for
sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure
therein; which are offered by the law; then said he,
Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the
first, that he may establish the second. By the
which will we are sanctified through the offering of
the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
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And every priest standeth daily ministering and
offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can
never take away sins: but this man, after he had
offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on
the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till
his enemies be made his footstool. For by one
offering he hath perfected for ever them that are
sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness
to us: for after that he had said before, This is the
covenant that I will make with them after those days,
saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts,
and in their minds will I write them; and their sins
and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where
remission of these is, there is no more offering for
sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter
into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and
living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through
the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an
high priest over the house of God; let us draw near
with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having
our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our
bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the
profession of our faith without wavering"
(Hebrews 10:4-23).
Jesus' substitutionary death for our sins was
necessary because "The wages of sin is death" (Romans
6:23); "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel
18:20). Jesus could die for our sins because He had
no sins of His own that He had to die for, but was
without sin (Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 1:19).
Those who sin must die because to sin is to say no
to God and yes to Satan: "He that committeth sin is
of the devil" (1 John 3:8); "Ye are of your father
the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do"
(John 8:44). God is not going to put up with Satan
and his followers forever: "Depart from me, ye
cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil
and his angels" (Matthew 25:41); "And the devil that
deceived them was cast into the lake of fire... This
is the second death. And whosoever was not found
written in the book of life was cast into the lake of
fire" (Revelation 20:10,14-15).
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
31 Jul 2007 05:29:31 PM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1185874872.653268.121320@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
In His mercy, God had originally provided Israel with
animal sacrifices as a way to temporarily deal with
sin:
In His mercy?
Whenever the Bible god shows mercy someone or something still has to shed
blood and die!
Wake up you zombie!
--
Andrew W.
Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth, that we must leave
no stone unturned.
How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to
life from one convenient book. ~me
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.acim.org/
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
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| User: "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
31 Jul 2007 05:49:54 AM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1185874872.653268.121320@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
El Shad... said on July 31, 1:16 am:
Why is the Christian God so bloodthirsty?
Why did he have so much wrath that was only
satisfied by Jesus shedding his blood?
God isn't bloodthirsty. He's love: "God is love"
(1 John 4:8). "God so loved the world, that he gave
his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in
him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
(John 3:16).
right, so the ALL-LOVING CHRISTIAN GOD sent his only son down to earth on a
suicide mission to forgive sin which god created in the first place?
why didn't this COLD-HEARTED ***** christian god instead of wanting yet
another killing just say, viola, your sins are forgiven. issue solved.
was that too hard for an OMNIPOTENT god?
http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Dan_Barker
"You can cite a hundred references to show that the biblical God is a
bloodthirsty tyrant, but if they can dig up two or three verses that say
"God is love," they will claim that *you* are taking things out of context!"
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| User: "Mark T moi@herethereandeverywhere47" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
31 Jul 2007 05:15:55 AM |
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BIBLICALLY ILLITERATE "Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
Why is the Christian God so bloodthirsty?
....
God isn't bloodthirsty.
EXAMPLES OF GOD'S LOVE IN THE BIBLE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Judges
1.. Ehud delivers a "message from God" to the king of Moab. God's message
consists of a knife thrust so deeply into the king's belly that it could not
be extracted, "and the dirt came out." Just another lovely Bible story.
3:15-22
2.. God sends evil spirits that cause humans to deal treacherously with
each other. 9:23-24
3.. God smites Sihon and all his people and gives their land to Israel.
11:21
4.. When "the spirit of the Lord" comes upon Jephthah, he makes a deal
with God: If God will help him kill the Ammonites, then he (Jephthah) will
offer to God as a burnt offering whatever comes out of his house to greet
him. God keeps his end of the deal by providing Jephthah with "a very great
slaughter." But when Jephthah returns, his nameless daughter comes out to
greet him (who'd he expect, his wife?). Well, a deal's a deal, so he
delivers her to God as a burnt offering -- after letting her spend a couple
of months going up and down on the mountains bewailing her virginity.
11:29-39
5.. Samson rips up a young lion when "the spirit of the Lord came mightily
upon him." Later, when going to "take" his Philistine wife he notices a
swarm of bees and honey in the lion's carcass (a Divine miracle -- or just
rotting flesh and maggots?). 14:5-8
6.. "And the spirit of the Lord came upon him [Samson], and he ... slew
thirty men." (Samson might have been a decent person if he could have kept
the spirit of the Lord off him.) 14:19
7.. "The spirit of the Lord came mightily upon" Samson and "he found a new
jawbone of an ***** ... and took it, and slew 1000 men therewith." 15:14-15
8.. God tells the Israelites to send the tribe of Judah into battle and
22,000 men were killed by the Benjamites. 20:18, 21
9.. God tells Phinehas to fight against the Benjamites, saying he will
deliver them into his hand. So the Israelites kill some more people for God.
20:38-41
10.. God tells them to go to battle again and another 18,000 are killed.
20:23, 25
1 Samuel
1.. "The Lord killeth ..." -- every chance he gets. 2:6, 2:25
2.. "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven
shall he thunder upon them." If God doesn't like you, he'll send a
thunderstorm your way to break your body into little pieces. 2:10
3.. If you ***** him off, God will cut off your arm, consume your eyes,
grieve your heart, and kill your sons and grandfathers. 2:31-34
4.. God will punish Eli's descendants forever for the sins of Eli's sons.
3:12-13
5.. God smites the people of Ashdod with hemorrhoids "in their secret
parts." 5:6-12
6.. "I make a covenant with you, that I may thrust out all your right
eyes." Deals like this can only be found in the Bible. 11:2
7.. "And the spirit of God came upon Saul ... and he took a yoke of oxen,
and hewed them in pieces, and sent them throughout all the coast of Israel."
People do the darnedest things when the spirit of God comes upon them!
11:6-7
8.. Under God's influence, the Philistines killed each other. 14:20
9.. God orders Saul to kill all of the Amalekites: men, women, infants,
sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses. Why? Because God remembers what
Amalek did hundreds of years ago. 15:2-3
10.. Saul is rebuked by Samuel for "doing evil in the sight of the Lord"
by failing to kill all of the Amalekites. 15:18-19
11.. Because Saul didn't kill everyone as God commanded, God changes his
mind about him being king. 15:23-26
12.. "David inquired of the Lord, saying, Shall I go and smite these
Philistines? And the Lord said unto David, Go, and smite the Philistines ...
So David smote them with a great slaughter." 23:2-5
2 Samuel
1.. David asks God if he should kill some more Philistines. God says yes,
and he'll even help. So David and God "smote the Philistines" again. 5:19,
25
2.. Uzzah tries to keep the ark from falling off the cart, and God kills
him for it. I guess it was God's way of saying Thanks. 6:6-7
3.. To punish David for having Uriah killed, God kills Bathsheba's baby
boy. 12:14-18
4.. A famine is sent on David's kingdom for three years. When David asks
God why, God answers: "It is for Saul, and his bloody house, because he slew
the Gibeonites. "So God sent a famine to punish a kingdom for something that
a former king had done. 21:1
5.. God offers David a choice of punishments for having conducted the
census: 1) seven years of famine ( 1 Chr.21:1 says three years), 2) three
months fleeing from enemies, or 3) three days of pestilence. David can't
decide, so God chooses for him and sends a pestilence, killing 70,000 men
(and probably around 200,000 women and children). 24:13
1 Kings
1.. God promises to "bring evil upon the house of Jerobaom," saying he
will "cut off" anyone "that pisseth against the wall." Then, after he is
done with them, their dead bodies will be eaten by dogs (if they are city
dwellers) or fowls (if they are country folk). 14:10-12
2.. Zimri kills everyone "that pisseth against a wall ... according to the
word of the Lord." 16:11-12
2 Kings
1.. God sends two bears to rip up 42 little children for making fun of
Elisha's bald head. 2:23-24
2.. God instructs the Israelites, through the prophet Elisha, to implement
a scorched earth policy on the Moabites. "Strike every fortified city and
every choice city, and fell every good tree and stop all springs of water,
and mar every good piece of land with stones." 3:19-25
3.. God sends a famine on the people that lasts for seven years. 8:1
4.. God says that the "whole house of Ahab shall perish," and that he
"will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall." 9:8
5.. God is greatly pleased with all of Jehu's killings, saying "because
thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast
done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart [Jehu
murdered them all], thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the
throne of Israel." 10:30
6.. Amaziah "did that which was right in the sight of the Lord" and killed
ten thousand Edomites. 14:3, 7
7.. God sent lions to devour the foreigners in Samaria because "they
feared not the Lord," and even worse "they knew not the manner of the God of
the land." Well that'll teach them about God's manners. 17:25-26
8.. An "angel of the Lord" kills 185,000 men while they sleep. "And when
they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses." I
guess they all woke up and said, "Shucks, I'm dead." 19:35
9.. Josiah, apparently with God's approval, kills "all the priests of the
high places" and sacrifices them to God on their altars. Note that this is a
guy who "did what was right in the eyes of the Lord" (2 Kg.22:2). 23:20
10.. Even though Josiah did all that God asked of him, God still punished
him and all Jerusalem for the acts of his grandfather. 23:26
2 Chronicles
1.. In the largest single God-assisted massacre in the bible, Asa, with
God's help, kills one million Ethiopians. 14:8-14
2.. Whoever that does not seek the God of Israel should be executed. 15:13
3.. God inspired Jehoram's enemies to steal his wives and children. Then
he made Jehoram so sick that his bowels fell out. 21:14-19
4.. Only Levites can enter "the house of the Lord". "Whosoever else cometh
into the house, he shall be put to death." 23:6-7
5.. God told Jehu to kill everyone in the house of Ahab (and then later
condemned him for it (Hosea 1:4)). 22:7-9
6.. Amaziah (who "did that which was right in the sight of the Lord")
killed 10,000 people; another 10,000 he left alive to throw off a cliff
"that they all were broken in pieces." 25:1-2, 11-12
7.. God makes Uzziah a leper for burning incense without a license.
26:19-21
8.. God sent an angel to kill the Assyrian army. (According to 2 Kg.19:35
the angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers who woke the next morning to
discover that they were dead.) 32:21
9.. God vows to "bring evil upon this place ... even all the curses that
are written in the book." He says his "wrath shall be poured out upon this
place, and shall not be quenched." 34:24-25, 28
10.. God gets angry with his people, so he sends the king of the Chaldees
to kill all the "young men with the sword." He has compassion for no one,
not even old men that are "stooped for age." In his tender mercy and loving
kindness he has them all slaughtered. 36:16-17
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity/ song covers & pics & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
01 Aug 2007 07:20:15 AM |
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Mark T referred to on July 31, 3:15 am:
EXAMPLES OF GOD'S LOVE IN THE BIBLE
Judges... 3:15-22, 9:23-24, 11:21,29-39, 14:5-8,19,
15:14-15, 20:18-25,38-41
God sending Ehud to kill the king of Moab showed
God's love for Israel, for Moab was oppressing Israel.
God sending discord between Abimelech and the men of
Shechem showed God's love for justice, for Abimelech
had murdered his brothers.
God giving the land of Sihon to Israel showed God's
love for Israel.
God never told Jephthah to make the vow he made, or
to go through with it (cf. 1 Samuel 14:24,43-45).
Samson finding honey to eat in the lion carcass could
have been God showing His love for Samson.
Samson slaying the Philistines showed God's love for
Israel, for the Philistines were oppressing Israel.
When the Benjaminites slew the men of Judah and
Israel, it could have been God's judgement against
Judah and Israel for their own sins.
The Benjaminites were killed as punishment for not
delivering up the extreme sinners of Gibeah to
judgment.
Mark referred to: 1 Samuel 2:6,10,25,31-34,
3:12-13, 5:6-12
God killed people or gave them physical problems
as punishment for their sins.
Mark referred to: 1 Samuel 11:2,6-7, 14:20,
15:2-3,18-19,23-26, 23:2-5; 2 Samuel 5:19,25
God didn't tell Nahash to pluck out eyes.
Saul's actions to unite the Israelites against Nahash
were based on God's love for Israel.
The Philistines killing each other could have shown
God's love for Israel, for the Philistines were
oppressing Israel.
God ordering the killing of the Amalekites showed
His love for Israel, for the Amalekites had attacked
Israel.
God telling David to save the Israelite city of
Keilah from the Philistines showed God's love for
Israel.
God telling David to war against the Philistines who
had come to make war against David showed God's love
for David.
Mark referred to: 2 Samuel 6:6-7, 12:14-18
Uzziah died because of his sin.
The child died because of David's sin.
Mark referred to: 2 Samuel 21:1, 24:13; 1 Kings
14:10-12, 16:11-12; 2 Kings 2:23-24, 3:19-25, 8:1
God sent famine because of Saul's sin and pestilence
because of David's sin, and God punished the houses
of Jeroboam and Baasha because of the sin of Jeroboam
and Baasha.
The children who mocked God's holy prophet were
punished for their sin.
God could have allowed Moab to be destroyed, and
Israel to suffer famine, because of their sin.
Mark referred to: 2 Kings 9:8, 10:30, 14:3,7,
17:25-26
God punished the house of Ahab for the sin of
Jezebel.
God could have allowed the Edomites to be killed
because of their sin.
God allowed the foreigners to be killed because of
their sin.
Mark referred to: 2 Kings 19:35; 2 Chronicles 32:21
God killing the Assyrians who were going to destroy
Jerusalem showed His love for Jerusalem.
Mark referred to: 2 Kings 23:20,26
God could have allowed the priests of Samaria to be
killed for their sins.
God punished Judah for the sin of Manasseh.
Mark referred to: 2 Chronicles 14:8-14, 15:13,
21:14-19, 23:6-7
God allowing Asa and Judah to kill the Ethiopians who
were attacking Asa and Judah showed God's love for
Asa and Judah.
The Israelites vowing to kill those who didn't
worship God showed their love for God.
God punished Judah for its sins.
Jehoiada was protecting the young king from attack.
Mark referred to: Hosea 1:4 & 2 Chronicles 22:7-9
God didn't tell Jehu to kill the princes of Judah and
the sons of the brethren of Ahaziah.
Mark referred to: 2 Chronicles 25:1-2,11-12,
26:19-21, 34:24-25,28, 36:16-17
God could have allowed the people of Seir to be
killed for their sins.
God punished Uzziah for his sin, and Judah for its
sin.
The righteous God isn't "bloodthirsty", but meting
out justice, when He punishes or kills people for
their sins, just as righteous human judges aren't
"bloodthirsty", but meting out justice, when they
sentence criminals to imprisonment or death.
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
She.. said on July 31, 3:49 am:
...sin which god created in the first place?
God never makes anyone commit sin: "Let no man say
when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God
cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any
man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away
of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath
conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is
finished, bringeth forth death" (James 1:13-15).
She.. said: [Re: Jesus death for our sins]
why didn't this... christian god instead of wanting
yet another killing just say, viola, your sins are
forgiven. issue solved.
Justice requires death for sin (Romans 6:23, Ezekiel
18:4). If God forgave sin without requiring a death
for it, He would make a mockery of justice. It would
be like a human judge letting a murderer go scot free
and saying "Issue solved".
She.. quoted: You can cite a hundred references to
show that the biblical God is a bloodthirsty tyrant
No verse shows that God is a bloodthirsty tyrant.
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
Andrew W said on July 31, 3:54 am:
Killing animals fixes nothing. Never has.
Animal sacrifices couldn't fix sin (Hebrews 10:4),
but they could purify the flesh (Hebrews 9:13).
Andrew said:
What does a shepherd do when his sheep go astray?
Does he slay them or go find them and bring them
home? Your god slays. Your god has a thirst for
blood.
Not all people are God's sheep (John 10:26). Some
people are wolves (Luke 10:3). A shepherd doesn't
kill wolves out of a thirst for blood.
Andrew said:
The only ever threat to anyone was God's own
callous wrath.
God's wrath is never callous: "I have no pleasure in
the death of the wicked" (Ezekiel 33:11).
Andrew said: Sin is imperfection.
Sin is saying no to God and yes to Satan (1 John 3:8,
John 8:44). God is not going to put up with Satan
and his followers forever (Matthew 25:41, Revelation
20:10,14-15), just as any righteous human judge is
not going to put up with a criminal gang committing
crimes forever.
Andrew said: Substitutionary death is perposterous.
Substitutionary death is love: "Greater love hath no
man than this, that a man lay down his life for his
friends" (John 15:13).
Andrew said: Only an innocent person can pay for a
transgression?
If Jesus hadn't been without sin (Hebrews 4:15;
1 Peter 1:19), then His death would have been
required to pay for His own sin, and so it couldn't
have paid for our sin instead.
.
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| User: "Mark T moi@herethereandeverywhere50" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
01 Aug 2007 07:49:23 PM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
EXAMPLES OF GOD'S LOVE IN THE BIBLE
Judges... 3:15-22, 9:23-24, 11:21,29-39, 14:5-8,19,
15:14-15, 20:18-25,38-41
God sending Ehud to kill the king of Moab showed
God's love
.... towards the king of Moab
Samson slaying the Philistines showed God's love for
.... the Philistines.
1 Samuel 2:6,10,25,31-3 3:12-13, 5:6-12
God killed people or gave them physical problems
as punishment for their sins.
Not what Jesus said.
1 Samuel 11:2,6-7, 14:20,
15:2-3,18-19,23-26, 23:2-5; 2 Samuel 5:19,25
....
Saul's actions to unite the Israelites against Nahash
were based on God's love
.... Nahash.
The Philistines killing each other could have shown
God's love for
..... the Philistines
God ordering the killing of the Amalekites showed
His love for
..... the Amalekites
God telling David to save the Israelite city of
Keilah from the Philistines showed God's love for
.... the Philistines
God telling David to war against the Philistines who
had come to make war against David showed God's love
for
.... the Philistines
2 Samuel 6:6-7, 12:14-18
....
The child died because of David's sin.
God punishes people because of the their father's sin.
Make sure you father doesn't sin if you want to stay alive!
2 Samuel 21:1, 24:13; 1 Kings
14:10-12, 16:11-12; 2 Kings 2:23-24, 3:19-25, 8:1
God sent famine because of Saul's sin and pestilence
because of David's sin, and God punished the houses
of Jeroboam and Baasha because of the sin of Jeroboam
and Baasha.
God punishes people because of the their father's sin.
Make sure you father doesn't sin if you want to stay alive!
The children who mocked God's holy prophet were
punished for their sin.
I mock you but I'm still alive. Should I stay away from bears or are you not
"God's holy prophet"?
2 Kings 9:8, 10:30, 14:3,7,
17:25-26
God punished the house of Ahab for the sin of
Jezebel.
God punishes nations because of one person's sin.
Make sure no-one in your nation sins if you want to stay alive!
2 Kings 19:35; 2 Chronicles 32:21
God killing the Assyrians who were going to destroy
Jerusalem showed His love for
.... the Assyrians.
2 Kings 23:20,26
God punished Judah for the sin of Manasseh.
God punishes nations because of one person's sin.
Make sure no-one in your nation sins if you want to stay alive!
2 Chronicles 14:8-14, 15:13,
21:14-19, 23:6-7
God allowing Asa and Judah to kill the Ethiopians who
were attacking Asa and Judah showed God's love for
.... the Ethiopians
The righteous God isn't "bloodthirsty", but meting
out justice
Apparently, according to the Old Testament:
1. God hates the king of Moab, Philistines, Nahash, Amalekites, Assyrians,
Ethiopians
CONCLUSION: Thank God that you aren't one of them!
2. God punishes people because of the their father's sin.
CONCLUSION: Make sure you father doesn't sin if you want to stay alive!
3. God punishes nations because of one person's sin.
CONCLUSION: Make sure no-one in your nation sins if you want to stay alive!
--
"All things are probable. Try to believe." - Mark 17:1 (MTV)
"Really! Try to believe even if it's bloody stupid and irrational." - Mark
17:2 (MTV)
"Why? Because I said so, that's why! Don't ask questions. Just
believe." - Mark 17:3 (MTV)
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity/ song covers & pics & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
02 Aug 2007 03:53:13 AM |
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Mark T said on August 1, 5:49 pm:
[Re: God sending Ehud to kill the king of Moab
showed God's love...]
... towards the king of Moab
God had the king of Moab killed because he was
oppressing Israel.
Mark said:
[Re: Samson slaying the Philistines showed God's
love for...]
... the Philistines.
God had the Philistines killed because they were
oppressing Israel.
Mark said:
[Re: God killed people or gave them physical
problems as punishment for their sins]
Not what Jesus said.
Jesus said that sin can cause people to have physical
problems: "A certain man was there, which had an
infirmity thirty and eight years. When Jesus saw him
lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in
that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made
whole?... Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more,
lest a worse thing come unto thee" (John 5:5-6,14).
Jesus said that sin will cause people to be killed;
"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish"
(Luke 13:3).
Mark said:
[Re: Saul's actions to unite the Israelites against
Nahash were based on God's love for...]
... Nahash.
God had Nahash defeated because he was oppressing
Israelites.
Mark said:
[Re: God ordering the killing of the Amalekites
showed His love for...]
.... the Amalekites
God had the Amalekites killed because they had
attacked Israel.
Mark said:
[Re: 2 Samuel 12:14-18, The child died because of
David's sin]
-
God punishes people because of their father's sin.
The death of David's first child by Bathsheba was not
necessarily a punishment of the child, for it could
have died in its sleep without any pain, and been
carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom (cf. Luke
16:22,25). But the death of the child was a
punishment of David for his sin.
Mark said:
[Re: God sent famine because of Saul's sin and
pestilence because of David's sin, and God punished
the houses of Jeroboam and Baasha because of the
sin of Jeroboam and Baasha]:
-
God punishes people because of their father's sin.
While from the time of the Mosaic Covenant, or Old
Covenant, God said that He would "Visit the iniquity
of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation" (Deuteronomy 5:9), God foretold
that things would be different under the New
Covenant: "In those days they shall say no more, The
fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's
teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for
his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour
grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Behold, the
days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new
covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house
of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made
with their fathers in the day that I took them by the
hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt"
(Jeremiah 31:29-32).
And even before the New Covenant was instituted by
the crucifixion of Jesus Christ (Matthew 26:28), God
said during the Babylonian Captivity that He wouldn't
punish people because of their father's sin: "What
mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land
of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour
grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As
I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have
occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the
father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul
that sinneth, it shall die... The son shall not bear
the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father
bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezekiel 18:2-4,20).
But no matter what punishment people used to receive
for their father's sins from the time of Moses to
Ezekiel, they still could not claim to be without sin
themselves: "For all have sinned" (Romans 3:23); "And
so death passed upon all men, for that all have
sinned" (Romans 5:12). The same people who had
received punishment for their father's sins may not
have received the punishment due to them for their
own, possibly worse, sins: "He hath not dealt with us
after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our
iniquities" (Psalms 103:10).
Those who do receive punishment for their own sins,
should not complain: "Wherefore doth a living man
complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?"
(Lamentations 3:39).
-For believers, punishment from God for their sins is
a good sign: "As many as I love, I rebuke and
chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent"
(Revelation 3:19). "Despise not thou the chastening
of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him;
for whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth
every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening,
God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he
whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without
chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye
bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had
fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave
them reverence: shall we not much rather be in
subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For
they verily for a few days chastened us after their
own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be
partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the
present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous;
nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable
fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised
thereby" (Hebrews 12:5-11).
Mark said:
[Re: The children who mocked God's holy prophet
were punished for their sin]
I mock you but I'm still alive. Should I stay away
from bears or are you not "God's holy prophet"?
Elisha the prophet was under the Old Covenant of
Moses when he turned and cursed the children (2 Kings
2:24). Under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ,
believers are no longer to curse their enemies: "Ye
have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love
thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto
you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
despitefully use you, and persecute you"
(Matthew 5:43-44); "Bless them which persecute you;
bless, and curse not" (Romans 12:14).
Mark said:
[Re: God punished the house of Ahab for the sin of
Jezebel]
God punishes nations because of one person's sin.
God didn't punish nations for the sin of Jezebel.
Mark said:
[Re: God killing the Assyrians who were going to
destroy Jerusalem showed His love for...]
... the Assyrians.
God had the Assyrians killed because they were going
to destroy Jerusalem.
Mark said:
[Re: God punished Judah for the sin of Manasseh]
God punishes nations because of one person's sin.
God punished only one nation for the sin of Manasseh,
that nation over which he had been king, and which
had not done anything to stop any of his outrages
against God.
Mark said:
[Re: God allowing Asa and Judah to kill the
Ethiopians who were attacking Asa and Judah showed
God's love for...]
... the Ethiopians
God had the Ethiopians killed because they were
attacking Asa and Judah.
Mark said:
God hates the king of Moab, Philistines, Nahash,
Amalekites, Assyrians, Ethiopians
God hated it when people hated, attacked, and
oppressed His Old Covenant chosen people: "Blessed is
he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth
thee" (Numbers 24:9). God didn't curse and kill any
of Israel's attackers or oppressors because He was
bloodthirsty, but because He loved Israel and wanted
it to stay alive and be blessed.
.
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| User: "David Morgan \MAMS" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
02 Aug 2007 03:58:34 AM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Wow....crazy man... simply crazy.
God doesn't kill or punish.
.
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
02 Aug 2007 05:57:14 PM |
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"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:_0hsi.23923$Ya1.5382@trnddc06...
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Wow....crazy man... simply crazy.
God doesn't kill or punish.
Whom He looses does.
His,
--
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.
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| User: "Mark T moi@herethereandeverywhere50" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
02 Aug 2007 04:04:09 AM |
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"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote:
God doesn't kill or punish.
Have you read the bible lately?????
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Judges
1.. Ehud delivers a "message from God" to the king of Moab. God's message
consists of a knife thrust so deeply into the king's belly that it could not
be extracted, "and the dirt came out." Just another lovely Bible story.
3:15-22
2.. God sends evil spirits that cause humans to deal treacherously with
each other. 9:23-24
3.. God smites Sihon and all his people and gives their land to Israel.
11:21
4.. When "the spirit of the Lord" comes upon Jephthah, he makes a deal
with God: If God will help him kill the Ammonites, then he (Jephthah) will
offer to God as a burnt offering whatever comes out of his house to greet
him. God keeps his end of the deal by providing Jephthah with "a very great
slaughter." But when Jephthah returns, his nameless daughter comes out to
greet him (who'd he expect, his wife?). Well, a deal's a deal, so he
delivers her to God as a burnt offering -- after letting her spend a couple
of months going up and down on the mountains bewailing her virginity.
11:29-39
5.. Samson rips up a young lion when "the spirit of the Lord came mightily
upon him." Later, when going to "take" his Philistine wife he notices a
swarm of bees and honey in the lion's carcass (a Divine miracle -- or just
rotting flesh and maggots?). 14:5-8
6.. "And the spirit of the Lord came upon him [Samson], and he ... slew
thirty men." (Samson might have been a decent person if he could have kept
the spirit of the Lord off him.) 14:19
7.. "The spirit of the Lord came mightily upon" Samson and "he found a new
jawbone of an ***** ... and took it, and slew 1000 men therewith." 15:14-15
8.. God tells the Israelites to send the tribe of Judah into battle and
22,000 men were killed by the Benjamites. 20:18, 21
9.. God tells Phinehas to fight against the Benjamites, saying he will
deliver them into his hand. So the Israelites kill some more people for God.
20:38-41
10.. God tells them to go to battle again and another 18,000 are killed.
20:23, 25
1 Samuel
1.. "The Lord killeth ..." -- every chance he gets. 2:6, 2:25
2.. "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven
shall he thunder upon them." If God doesn't like you, he'll send a
thunderstorm your way to break your body into little pieces. 2:10
3.. If you ***** him off, God will cut off your arm, consume your eyes,
grieve your heart, and kill your sons and grandfathers. 2:31-34
4.. God will punish Eli's descendants forever for the sins of Eli's sons.
3:12-13
5.. God smites the people of Ashdod with hemorrhoids "in their secret
parts." 5:6-12
6.. "I make a covenant with you, that I may thrust out all your right
eyes." Deals like this can only be found in the Bible. 11:2
7.. "And the spirit of God came upon Saul ... and he took a yoke of oxen,
and hewed them in pieces, and sent them throughout all the coast of Israel."
People do the darnedest things when the spirit of God comes upon them!
11:6-7
8.. Under God's influence, the Philistines killed each other. 14:20
9.. God orders Saul to kill all of the Amalekites: men, women, infants,
sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses. Why? Because God remembers what
Amalek did hundreds of years ago. 15:2-3
10.. Saul is rebuked by Samuel for "doing evil in the sight of the Lord"
by failing to kill all of the Amalekites. 15:18-19
11.. Because Saul didn't kill everyone as God commanded, God changes his
mind about him being king. 15:23-26
12.. "David inquired of the Lord, saying, Shall I go and smite these
Philistines? And the Lord said unto David, Go, and smite the Philistines ...
So David smote them with a great slaughter." 23:2-5
2 Samuel
1.. David asks God if he should kill some more Philistines. God says yes,
and he'll even help. So David and God "smote the Philistines" again. 5:19,
25
2.. Uzzah tries to keep the ark from falling off the cart, and God kills
him for it. I guess it was God's way of saying Thanks. 6:6-7
3.. To punish David for having Uriah killed, God kills Bathsheba's baby
boy. 12:14-18
4.. A famine is sent on David's kingdom for three years. When David asks
God why, God answers: "It is for Saul, and his bloody house, because he slew
the Gibeonites. "So God sent a famine to punish a kingdom for something that
a former king had done. 21:1
5.. God offers David a choice of punishments for having conducted the
census: 1) seven years of famine ( 1 Chr.21:1 says three years), 2) three
months fleeing from enemies, or 3) three days of pestilence. David can't
decide, so God chooses for him and sends a pestilence, killing 70,000 men
(and probably around 200,000 women and children). 24:13
1 Kings
1.. God promises to "bring evil upon the house of Jerobaom," saying he
will "cut off" anyone "that pisseth against the wall." Then, after he is
done with them, their dead bodies will be eaten by dogs (if they are city
dwellers) or fowls (if they are country folk). 14:10-12
2.. Zimri kills everyone "that pisseth against a wall ... according to the
word of the Lord." 16:11-12
2 Kings
1.. God sends two bears to rip up 42 little children for making fun of
Elisha's bald head. 2:23-24
2.. God instructs the Israelites, through the prophet Elisha, to implement
a scorched earth policy on the Moabites. "Strike every fortified city and
every choice city, and fell every good tree and stop all springs of water,
and mar every good piece of land with stones." 3:19-25
3.. God sends a famine on the people that lasts for seven years. 8:1
4.. God says that the "whole house of Ahab shall perish," and that he
"will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall." 9:8
5.. God is greatly pleased with all of Jehu's killings, saying "because
thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast
done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart [Jehu
murdered them all], thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the
throne of Israel." 10:30
6.. Amaziah "did that which was right in the sight of the Lord" and killed
ten thousand Edomites. 14:3, 7
7.. God sent lions to devour the foreigners in Samaria because "they
feared not the Lord," and even worse "they knew not the manner of the God of
the land." Well that'll teach them about God's manners. 17:25-26
8.. An "angel of the Lord" kills 185,000 men while they sleep. "And when
they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses." I
guess they all woke up and said, "Shucks, I'm dead." 19:35
9.. Josiah, apparently with God's approval, kills "all the priests of the
high places" and sacrifices them to God on their altars. Note that this is a
guy who "did what was right in the eyes of the Lord" (2 Kg.22:2). 23:20
10.. Even though Josiah did all that God asked of him, God still punished
him and all Jerusalem for the acts of his grandfather. 23:26
2 Chronicles
1.. In the largest single God-assisted massacre in the bible, Asa, with
God's help, kills one million Ethiopians. 14:8-14
2.. Whoever that does not seek the God of Israel should be executed. 15:13
3.. God inspired Jehoram's enemies to steal his wives and children. Then
he made Jehoram so sick that his bowels fell out. 21:14-19
4.. Only Levites can enter "the house of the Lord". "Whosoever else cometh
into the house, he shall be put to death." 23:6-7
5.. God told Jehu to kill everyone in the house of Ahab (and then later
condemned him for it (Hosea 1:4)). 22:7-9
6.. Amaziah (who "did that which was right in the sight of the Lord")
killed 10,000 people; another 10,000 he left alive to throw off a cliff
"that they all were broken in pieces." 25:1-2, 11-12
7.. God makes Uzziah a leper for burning incense without a license.
26:19-21
8.. God sent an angel to kill the Assyrian army. (According to 2 Kg.19:35
the angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers who woke the next morning to
discover that they were dead.) 32:21
9.. God vows to "bring evil upon this place ... even all the curses that
are written in the book." He says his "wrath shall be poured out upon this
place, and shall not be quenched." 34:24-25, 28
10.. God gets angry with his people, so he sends the king of the Chaldees
to kill all the "young men with the sword." He has compassion for no one,
not even old men that are "stooped for age." In his tender mercy and loving
kindness he has them all slaughtered. 36:16-17
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity/ song covers & pics & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
|
| Title: Re: Very important question |
03 Aug 2007 03:13:37 AM |
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"Mark T" <moi@herethereandeverywhere50> wrote in message
news:46b19e06@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote:
God doesn't kill or punish.
Have you read the bible lately?????
The Christian Bible isn't about God. Its about a version of God. A violent
and angry humanised version.
Christians have lowered the Creator to the level of an angry strict
disciplinary human.
--
Andrew W.
Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth, that we must leave
no stone unturned.
How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to
life from one convenient book. ~me
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.acim.org/
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
03 Aug 2007 05:51:37 AM |
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Andrew W said on August 3, 1:13 am:
Christians have lowered the Creator to the level of
an angry strict disciplinary human.
"They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in
adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law
commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what
sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they
might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and
with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he
heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he
lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is
without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at
her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the
ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by
their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning
at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left
alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When
Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the
woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine
accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No
man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
condemn thee: go, and sin no more" (John 8:4-11).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
Andrew W said on August 3, 1:17 am:
Only the silly Christian version of God hates. He
spends more time hating than loving. His love is
just words while his hate makes up most of his
actions.
"God so loved the world, that he gave his only
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should
not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent
not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
that the world through him might be saved. He that
believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
believeth not is condemned already, because he hath
not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of
God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come
into the world, and men loved darkness rather than
light, because their deeds were evil. For every one
that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to
the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he
that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds
may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God"
(John 3:16-21).
"When we were yet without strength, in due time
Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a
righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a
good man some would even dare to die. But God
commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then,
being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved
from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies,
we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by
his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God
through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now
received the atonement" (Romans 5:6-11).
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay
down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). "I am
the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life
for the sheep" (John 10:11); "Therefore doth my
Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I
might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I
lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down,
and I have power to take it again" (John 10:17-18).
"Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the
first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the
kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and
washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Revelation
1:5); "The Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself
for me" (Galatians 2:20).
"God is love. In this was manifested the love of God
toward us, because that God sent his only begotten
Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he
loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for
our sins" (1 John 4:8-10).
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
03 Aug 2007 10:06:39 PM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186138297.621010.157410@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Andrew W said on August 3, 1:13 am:
Christians have lowered the Creator to the level of
an angry strict disciplinary human.
"They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in
adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law
<snip>
I know you like these stories but I really don't have time for them.
I used to like stories when I was a child but now I'm grown up.
Thanks anyway.
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
Andrew W said on August 3, 1:17 am:
Only the silly Christian version of God hates. He
spends more time hating than loving. His love is
just words while his hate makes up most of his
actions.
"God so loved the world, that he gave his only
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should
not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent
<snip more implausible old middle eastern religious stories>
--
Andrew W.
Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth, that we must leave
no stone unturned.
How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to
life from one convenient book. ~me
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.acim.org/
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
04 Aug 2007 05:23:24 AM |
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Andrew W said on August 3, 8:06 pm:
I know you like these stories but I really don't
have time for them.
It's amazing what those who have "no time" for the
Bible have time for. Because they can't endure the
sound doctrine of the Bible, they'll run after anyone
or anything, whether it be "Spirit Guides" or
"Ascended Masters" or "Angels" or "Gurus" or anything
really, so long as it tickles their ears with
pleasing fables which contradict the Bible, and
encourages them to wallow in their lusts without
feeling any guilt: "Preach the word; be instant in
season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with
all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will
come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but
after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves
teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn
away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned
unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:2-4); "The Spirit speaketh
expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart
from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and
doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1).
Men inspired by devils will not say, and often do not
even know, that what they are teaching is from
devils. All they know is they "feel great, finally
haven gotten free from the tyrrany of that evil,
false Christian bugaboo god the fundamentalists are
constantly trying to scare people with, and which I
let scare me for so long". And yet they aren't free,
"For when they speak great swelling words of vanity,
they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through
much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from
them who live in error. While they promise them
liberty, they themselves are the servants of
corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the
same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have
escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they
are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter
end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had
been better for them not to have known the way of
righteousness, than, after they have known it, to
turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true
proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again;
and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the
mire" (2 Peter 2:18-22).
"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And
the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but
the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make
you free, ye shall be free indeed" (John 8:34-36).
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves
servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye
obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience
unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were
the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the
heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants
of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men
because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye
have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and
to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your
members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For
when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from
righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things
whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those
things is death. But now being made free from sin,
and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto
holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages
of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:16-23).
Andrew said:
I used to like stories when I was a child but now
I'm grown up.
"Grown-ups" enslaved to their sin will always mock at
"simple-minded children" who by God's grace continue
to humbly believe what the Bible teaches: "If ye
continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed"
(John 8:31); "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be
converted, and become as little children, ye shall
not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever
therefore shall humble himself as this little child,
the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven"
(Matthew 18:3-4).
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent
beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds
should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in
Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another
Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive
another spirit, which ye have not received, or
another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might
well bear with him... For such are false apostles,
deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the
apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself
is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it
is no great thing if his ministers also be
transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose
end shall be according to their works" (2 Corinthians
11:3-4,13-15).
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the
gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to
destruction, and many there be which go in thereat;
because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find
it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in
sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening
wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men
gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even
so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a
corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree
cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt
tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth
not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the
fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them"
(Matthew 7:13-20).
Jesus "was manifested to take away our sins; and in
him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not;
whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known
him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that
doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is
righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil;
for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this
purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might
destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of
God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in
him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In
this the children of God are manifest, and the
children of the devil: whosoever doeth not
righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth
not his brother" (1 John 3:5-10).
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth
the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will
say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out
devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you;
depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew
7:21-23); "For if we sin wilfully after that we have
received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth
no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful
looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which
shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses'
law died without mercy under two or three witnesses;
of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son
of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and
hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we
know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me,
I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The
Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to
fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews
10:26-31).
"This then is the message which we have heard of him,
and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him
is no darkness at all. If we say that we have
fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie,
and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as
he is in the light, we have fellowship one with
another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son
cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no
sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in
us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all
unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned,
we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
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My little children, these things write I unto you,
that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an
advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for
ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep
his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and
keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the
truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in
him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know
we that we are in him" (1 John 1:5-2:5).
Andrew said:
snip more implausible old middle eastern religious
stories
Nothing taught by the Bible is necessarily
implausible, for "with God all things are possible"
(Matthew 19:26); and sometimes old is better: "Thus
saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and
ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and
walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.
But they said, We will not walk therein" (Jeremiah
6:16). And unless we want to appear as racists or
jingoists, we shouldn't reject anything simply
because it happens to be "middle eastern". Nor should
we reject anything simply because it's "religious",
for there is a "pure religion and undefiled before
God" (James 1:27).
And the Bible is not just a bunch of "stories", as in
made-up stuff, but is based on eyewitness historical
accounts: "For we have not followed cunningly devised
fables, when we made known unto you the power and
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were
eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Peter 1:16); "That
which was from the beginning, which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes, which we have
looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word
of life. For the life was manifested, and we have
seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that
eternal life, which was with the Father, and was
manifested unto us. That which we have seen and
heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have
fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with
the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ"
(1 John 1:1-3).
"...set forth in order a declaration of those things
which are most surely believed among us, even as
they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning
were eyewitnesses" (Luke 1:1-2); "How shall we
escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at
the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was
confirmed unto us by them that heard him"
(Hebrews 2:3).
How shall we escape, if we neglect the Bible, have
"no time" for it, because we want to spend all our
time running after anything else, so long as it
contradicts the Bible? "Behold, the word of the LORD
is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it"
(Jeremiah 6:10); "And this is the condemnation, that
light is come into the world, and men loved darkness
rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For
every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither
cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be
reproved" (John 3:19-20).
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| User: "RedFox" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
05 Aug 2007 06:19:48 PM |
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In article <1186223004.779188.159850@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Read
The Bible <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
Andrew W said on August 3, 8:06 pm:
I know you like these stories but I really don't
have time for them.
It's amazing what those who have "no time" for the
Bible have time for. Because they can't endure the
sound doctrine of the Bible,
SOUND DOCTRINE IN THE BIBLE
Ex 28:35 And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be
heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he
cometh out, that he die not.
Le 25:9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the
tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the
trumpet sound throughout all your land.
Jos 6:5 And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with
the ramıs horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people
shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down
flat,
Job 15:21 A dreadful sound is in his ears: in prosperity the destroyer
shall come upon him.
Ps 47:5 God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.
Ps 77:17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine
arrows also went abroad.
Isa 16:11 Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp for Moab, and mine
inward parts for Kirharesh.
1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp,
except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what
is piped or harped?
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having
itching ears;
Re 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and
trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of
whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of
a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
+++++++++++++++++
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| User: "RedFox" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
05 Aug 2007 06:11:23 PM |
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In article <1186138297.621010.157410@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Read
The Bible <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
Andrew W said on August 3, 1:13 am:
Christians have lowered the Creator to the level of
an angry strict disciplinary human.
"They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in
adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law
commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what
sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they
might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and
with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he
heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he
lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is
without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at
her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the
ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by
their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning
at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left
alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When
Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the
woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine
accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No
man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
condemn thee: go, and sin no more" (John 8:4-11).
From the Weatherly Book "A Layman looks at the Bible"
(suggested by RF for Chapter Four)
Chapter FOUR
"The Woman That Nearly Got Stoned"
The passage I want to examine here is in John Chapter 8. I am very fond
of this passage because it reminds me of several of my 59 sexual partners
In this passage a woman who has committed adultery is brought to Jesus by
a group of Pharisees who think she should get stoned. I have often been
stoned myself, but never whilst committing adultery. It is rather like
drinking whilst driving, the risk is that you will spill it and Canadian
Bud is not cheap when you are on welfare like myself, although I am
expecting to be given an executive position soon, as well as making a
fortune selling the movie rights to this book.
Anyway I don't agree with Hitler, or with Mussolini, or with Charlie
Manson. But if we all three agreed that a cold beer on a hot day would be
fun that be a good thing. So I always remember that whatever reputation I
acquire doesn't bother me in the least, and since so many people make this
ugly habit of dropping their drawers and mooning me just for fun, it
doesn't give them the right to be cute and accuse me of being a liar
Which is what happened to the woman in the story. As I have said I'll get
anyone here to sit over a bong and some fruit punch together with
JohnMacArthur, with John R W Stott, with Holland London, with John
Ogilvie, with EV Hill, with John Dirks, and we'll see who gets BURIED in
Hebrew and Greek!
So what was the word Jesus wrote in the dust. Well Jesus swore a lot in
Aramaic so he may have written "F---You" as several leading theologians
who taught me believe
But I think it was more likely he was writing that the High Priest was a
Psycho rat rather like a woman who stalks me on Usenet, but HE wrote it in
Aramaic so that only his disciples understood it and cracked their ribs
laughing so hard.
smirk!
Continued page 94
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| User: "David Morgan \MAMS" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
02 Aug 2007 12:38:05 PM |
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"Mark T" <moi@herethereandeverywhere50> wrote in message...
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote:
God doesn't kill or punish.
Have you read the bible lately?????
God did not write the Bible. Jeshua bin Joseph left no written records.
God doesn't hate.
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| User: "Mark T moi@herethereandeverywhere50" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
02 Aug 2007 04:01:52 AM |
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BIBLICALLY ILLITERATE "Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wroteth:
.... snippeth fundie crap ...
Apparently, according to the Old Testament:
1. God hates the king of Moab, Philistines, Nahash, Amalekites, Assyrians,
Ethiopians
CONCLUSION: Thank God that you aren't one of them!
2. God punishes people because of the their father's sin.
CONCLUSION: Make sure you father doesn't sin if you want to stay alive!
3. God punishes nations because of one person's sin.
CONCLUSION: Make sure no-one in your nation sins if you want to stay alive!
--
"All things are probable. Try to believe." - Mark 17:1 (MTV)
"Really! Try to believe even if it's bloody stupid and irrational." - Mark
17:2 (MTV)
"Why? Because I said so, that's why! Don't ask questions. Just
believe." - Mark 17:3 (MTV)
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity/ song covers & pics & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
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| User: "David Morgan \MAMS" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
02 Aug 2007 12:35:37 PM |
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"Mark T" <moi@herethereandeverywhere50> wrote in message...
1. God hates the king of Moab, Philistines, Nahash, Amalekites, Assyrians,
Ethiopians
God doesn't hate.
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
02 Aug 2007 05:57:14 PM |
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"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:JBosi.23956$Ya1.344@trnddc06...
"Mark T" <moi@herethereandeverywhere50> wrote in message...
1. God hates the king of Moab, Philistines, Nahash, Amalekites,
Assyrians,
Ethiopians
God doesn't hate.
Except for Esau (Mal 1:3).
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| User: "John Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Very important question |
02 Aug 2007 04:40:12 PM |
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"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:JBosi.23956$Ya1.344@trnddc06...
"Mark T" <moi@herethereandeverywhere50> wrote in message...
1. God hates the king of Moab, Philistines, Nahash, Amalekites,
Assyrians,
Ethiopians
God doesn't hate.
Prove it!
While you're at it - prove god.
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