Was "Re: Capital punishment"



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "James"
Date: 06 Jan 2006 01:52:47 PM
Object: Was "Re: Capital punishment"

"Serafim Tkachuk" <gentleorthodoxy@hotmail.com>
Was "Re: Capital punishment"
I am saddened whenever I hear Orthodox Christians defend capital
punishment, even though I know that there are, were, and always will be
various and opposing opinions in our Church, and that these opinions
may be justifiable within their own systems of logic.

I cannot square capital punishment with any of my Christian experience.
The Old Testament may be quoted, but I do not see it in the New. I
cannot square it with the introduction to the Ten Commandments. I
cannot square it with the Gospel. I cannot square it with the words of
the "Our Father." I cannot square it with "The Beatitudes." I cannot
square it with my knowledge of our canonical tradition. I cannot square
it with my knowledge of the teaching of the Fathers. I can not square
it with my reading of any one of our saints. And most certainly I
cannot square it with the teaching of Saint Silouan, that the real test
of a Christian is being able to forgive one's enemies.

Since we Christians stand for repentance, and are called to live this
daily, it is perhaps our responsibility to help the persons
incarcerated for serious crimes to move in that direction also.

Perhaps we Orthodox Christians should at last take seriously our call
to visit those in prison, to become qualified for a prison ministry,
even, and to bring some hope, consolation, and witness of something
better to these persons who otherwise could well die without knowing
anything else except misery.

We always say "Talk is cheap." Perhaps it's time we proved we are
Christians by doing something instead of philosophizing.

Hello,
The Bible gives us guidance on how to view various things. We should
always turn to the Bible to verify religious teachings. (and actually
any important thing) Ac 17:11,
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,
for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (NIV)
So what does the Bible have to say about capitol punishment?
Under the Mosaic law, capitol punishment was invoked on certain
serious offenses. (Le 18:29) But there were safeguards against abuses
of it by having impartial judging, eyewitness testimony, and guards
against corruption. (Le 19:15; De 16:18-20; 19:15) Even the judges
themselves were held accountable to God for their actions. (De
1:16,17; 2 Ch 19:6-10)
But Christians are no longer under Mosaic law (Ro 7:6; Co 2:14), so
how should they view capitol punishment? Interestingly, the Bible does
answer that question.
The Apostle Paul wrote under inspiration at Ro 13:1-5,
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there
is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities
that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels
against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted,
and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers
hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do
you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is
right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you
good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword
for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring
punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to
the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also
because of conscience." (NIV)
Thus, the governments of the world have the scriptural right to "bear
the sword", be an "agent of wrath" and to "bring punishment on the
wrongdoer" even if that means death. That being the case, should
Christians have any part in saying how that authority is exercised?
Jesus told his followers an important principle at Joh 15:19,
"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is,
you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the
world. That is why the world hates you." (NIV) (see also Joh 17:16)
So a Christian's stand on this issue would be one of neutrality. Jesus
set the example at John 6:15 when his countrymen tried to get him into
politics. How did Jesus respond? "Jesus, knowing that they intended to
come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by
himself." (NIV)
Thus a Christian being no part of the world, would neither give
support nor oppose the use of capitol punishment by a nation. They
would scripturally remain neutral. God will judge any nation that
abuses His authority given to them.
(Much of this material was based on the 3/8, 1996, Awake! magazine, p.
22.)
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
.

User: "MichaelC"

Title: Re: Was "Re: Capital punishment" 06 Jan 2006 12:06:28 PM
"James" <arox@surfbest.net> wrote in message
news:viitr1toa61qtlttjur0ngppj6q0r2k805@4ax.com...

"Serafim Tkachuk" <gentleorthodoxy@hotmail.com>


Was "Re: Capital punishment"


I am saddened whenever I hear Orthodox Christians defend capital
punishment, even though I know that there are, were, and always will be
various and opposing opinions in our Church, and that these opinions
may be justifiable within their own systems of logic.

I cannot square capital punishment with any of my Christian experience.
The Old Testament may be quoted, but I do not see it in the New. I
cannot square it with the introduction to the Ten Commandments. I
cannot square it with the Gospel. I cannot square it with the words of
the "Our Father." I cannot square it with "The Beatitudes." I cannot
square it with my knowledge of our canonical tradition. I cannot square
it with my knowledge of the teaching of the Fathers. I can not square
it with my reading of any one of our saints. And most certainly I
cannot square it with the teaching of Saint Silouan, that the real test
of a Christian is being able to forgive one's enemies.

Since we Christians stand for repentance, and are called to live this
daily, it is perhaps our responsibility to help the persons
incarcerated for serious crimes to move in that direction also.

Perhaps we Orthodox Christians should at last take seriously our call
to visit those in prison, to become qualified for a prison ministry,
even, and to bring some hope, consolation, and witness of something
better to these persons who otherwise could well die without knowing
anything else except misery.

We always say "Talk is cheap." Perhaps it's time we proved we are
Christians by doing something instead of philosophizing.


Hello,

The Bible gives us guidance on how to view various things. We should
always turn to the Bible to verify religious teachings. (and actually
any important thing) Ac 17:11,

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,
for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (NIV)

So what does the Bible have to say about capitol punishment?

Under the Mosaic law, capitol punishment was invoked on certain
serious offenses. (Le 18:29) But there were safeguards against abuses
of it by having impartial judging, eyewitness testimony, and guards
against corruption. (Le 19:15; De 16:18-20; 19:15) Even the judges
themselves were held accountable to God for their actions. (De
1:16,17; 2 Ch 19:6-10)

But Christians are no longer under Mosaic law (Ro 7:6; Co 2:14), so
how should they view capitol punishment? Interestingly, the Bible does
answer that question.

The Apostle Paul wrote under inspiration at Ro 13:1-5,

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there
is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities
that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels
against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted,
and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers
hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do
you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is
right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you
good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword
for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring
punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to
the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also
because of conscience." (NIV)

Thus, the governments of the world have the scriptural right to "bear
the sword", be an "agent of wrath" and to "bring punishment on the
wrongdoer" even if that means death. That being the case, should
Christians have any part in saying how that authority is exercised?

Jesus told his followers an important principle at Joh 15:19,

"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is,
you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the
world. That is why the world hates you." (NIV) (see also Joh 17:16)

So a Christian's stand on this issue would be one of neutrality. Jesus
set the example at John 6:15 when his countrymen tried to get him into
politics. How did Jesus respond? "Jesus, knowing that they intended to
come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by
himself." (NIV)

Thus a Christian being no part of the world, would neither give
support nor oppose the use of capitol punishment by a nation. They
would scripturally remain neutral. God will judge any nation that
abuses His authority given to them.

(Much of this material was based on the 3/8, 1996, Awake! magazine, p.
22.)


Sincerely, James

This is a cogent, well thought out position on the issue of capital
punishment.
Thus, it has no place on USENET. :-)
Mike
.
User: "AGGreen"

Title: Re: Was "Re: Capital punishment" 07 Jan 2006 05:54:57 PM
"MichaelC" <mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Ekyvf.9466$UF3.914@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...



This is a cogent, well thought out position on the issue of capital
punishment.

Thus, it has no place on USENET. :-)

Mike

***Is it safe to assume that you are speaking tongue in cheek?
Al
.
User: "MichaelC"

Title: Re: Was "Re: Capital punishment" 08 Jan 2006 06:23:57 AM
"AGGreen" <agg@nospamo.net> wrote in message
news:dppkth3poa@enews4.newsguy.com...


"MichaelC" <mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Ekyvf.9466$UF3.914@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...




This is a cogent, well thought out position on the issue of capital
punishment.

Thus, it has no place on USENET. :-)

Mike



***Is it safe to assume that you are speaking tongue in cheek?

Pretty safe.
Mike
.


User: "Alexander Arnakis"

Title: Re: Was "Re: Capital punishment" 06 Jan 2006 06:52:57 PM
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:06:28 GMT, "MichaelC"
<mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


This is a cogent, well thought out position on the issue of capital
punishment.

No, it isn't well thought out. It advocates an "agnostic" position on
capital punishment, which for a Christian is a moral abdication.
Furthermore, the conclusions from the cited Biblical passages don't
follow logically. But what can you expect from those "intellectual
giants" the Witnesses of Jehovah?
.
User: "AGGreen"

Title: Re: Was "Re: Capital punishment" 07 Jan 2006 05:55:50 PM
"Alexander Arnakis" <invalid@address.none> wrote in message
news:d04ur1lc9e9pii331hl190j3jr5ht1mh0g@4ax.com...

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:06:28 GMT, "MichaelC"
<mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


This is a cogent, well thought out position on the issue of capital
punishment.

No, it isn't well thought out. It advocates an "agnostic" position on
capital punishment, which for a Christian is a moral abdication.
Furthermore, the conclusions from the cited Biblical passages don't
follow logically. But what can you expect from those "intellectual
giants" the Witnesses of Jehovah?

***Er...um...JW's are opposed to capital punishment are they not?
.

User: "MichaelC"

Title: Re: Was "Re: Capital punishment" 06 Jan 2006 09:34:01 PM
"Alexander Arnakis" <invalid@address.none> wrote in message
news:d04ur1lc9e9pii331hl190j3jr5ht1mh0g@4ax.com...

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:06:28 GMT, "MichaelC"
<mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


This is a cogent, well thought out position on the issue of capital
punishment.

No, it isn't well thought out. It advocates an "agnostic" position on
capital punishment, which for a Christian is a moral abdication.
Furthermore, the conclusions from the cited Biblical passages don't
follow logically. But what can you expect from those "intellectual
giants" the Witnesses of Jehovah?

I guess you missed the point to my post. Well, nothing new in that.
Mike
.
User: "Alexander Arnakis"

Title: Re: Was "Re: Capital punishment" 06 Jan 2006 10:59:18 PM
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 03:34:01 GMT, "MichaelC"
<mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


I guess you missed the point to my post. Well, nothing new in that.

No, I didn't miss your irony. However, I had a point of my own to
make.
.





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