Westcott & Hort fraud



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Yuri Kuchinsky"
Date: 24 Nov 2003 01:19:58 PM
Object: Westcott & Hort fraud
THE EMPTY SHELL OF WESTCOTT & HORT
by Yuri Kuchinsky
Dr. Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) has been a highly influential
figure in biblical history, although very few of today's Christians
have even heard about him. He and his partner Brooke Foss Westcott
(1825-1903) were responsible for the greatest feat in biblical textual
criticism. They were responsible for undermining the text of the
Authorised Version (the KJV), which led to its eventual abandonment by
all mainstream Christian Churches.
KJV New Testament was, of course, based on the Greek text that is
known as the Majority/Byzantine text. This is the traditional text
that the Church copied and preserved throughout the centuries. And
yet, mainly because of Hort (who was the guiding light of this dynamic
duo), this traditional text was abandoned, and it was replaced... with
Hort's own creation! So this was published first in 1881, and it took
the world by storm. As a result, almost every modern translation of
the gospels (such as the RSV, NIV, NASB, etc.) is based essentially on
Hort's Greek text -- the text that did not even exist before the 19th
century!
So then what was the basis of Hort's 1881 edition? It was based on a
small handful of Egyptian Greek manuscripts dated to the 4th and 5th
centuries. But there are many problems with these manuscripts, because
they constantly disagree with each other -- in thousands of
passages... So how did he decide which of them to use for any
particular verse of his brand-new text that he was building up?
Essentially, when all is said and done, he based his decisions upon
his own authority.
As a result, in the 4 gospels alone, Hort's text has about 6000
differences from the traditional Byzantine text. Many of these
differences are very substantial indeed, and affect all sorts of
matters of biblical interpretation. And it is all based on the
authority of Hort (plus a few other scholars who collaborated with
him).
So this is what the overwhelming majority of biblical scholars, as
well the majority of the rank-and-file Christians, of course, still
use today...
Now, to be sure, the overwhelming majority of today's biblical
scholars don't really know all that much about NT textual criticism
(and this fact is well known among the actual text critical
_specialists_, of which there are very few indeed). Most NT scholars
simply follow in the footsteps of those who taught them, and they of
course also relied on Westcott & Hort's Greek text in their
interpretative work. So this is a new "tradition" that Hort created,
and it is very rarely if at all questioned today in the halls of
academe. But I'm saying that the whole thing was nothing but a MASSIVE
DELUSION.
After studying these matters for years, I've concluded that the
"improved text", so-called, that Hort & Co. introduced was not an
improvement at all, but a total and unqualified DISASTER -- far
inferior to the traditional Majority/Byzantine text.
WHOSE AUTHORITY?
So, in the final analysis, this whole attempted "improvement", which
resulted in all these "modern" translations of the gospels, was really
based on Hort's own personal authority. He was the leader in that late
19th century movement to dump the traditional text of the gospels. As
I say, there are many thousands of disagreements among these 4 or 5
Egyptian manuscripts that he was primarily using and, in each single
one of these cases, it was Hort, himself, who had to make a decision
as to what goes into his text, and what stays out of it.
Of course, in his many writings, Hort did try to offer some sort of a
scientific justification for all these editorial changes that he was
making -- thousands upon thousands of them. He did try to formulate a
variety of theories about the Majority text; about his beloved
Egyptian manuscripts; about how all of these derived; their
hypothetical sources; their interrelationships, and about the
historical settings for all these developments. But the problem is
that, over the years... virtually all of his theories have now been
completely abandoned by the mainstream textual critics!
And so, nobody is any longer taking seriously his "Neutral text"
theory, or his "Alexandrian text" theory, or his "Syrian recension"
theory... It is generally known that he never actually applied his
vaunted genealogical method to real manuscripts (as opposed to the
hypothetical ones)... The criticisms that he levelled at the Majority
text, such as his theories about the supposed "conflations" and
"harmonisations" within it have all been answered very competently by
highly skilful textual scholars such as Robinson and Pickering...
Thus, it is very clear by now that Hort didn't have the history of the
text -- all of his explanations as to how and in what historical
circumstances our earliest manuscripts and text-types originated are
now universally rejected. He never produced a general stemma of the
earliest Greek manuscripts -- in fact, no such stemma has been
produced even up to the present day. (A stemma is a diagram that shows
the parent/child relationships between various manuscripts of an
ancient work.)
There's virtually nothing left out there of Hort's original
theorising, what actually _paved the way_ for that big 19th century
take down of the Majority text... There's nothing left there at all
but an Empty Shell!
So this is what we have left then, ladies and gentlemen -- the Empty
Shell of Hort's theories... And yet, in some strange and miraculous
way, his Greek text still lingers on in academic circles, as if there
were nothing wrong with it at all! (As Robinson notes, the latest
edition of Nestle/Aland, this mainstream academic Greek NT, is still
99.5% identical to Hort's original creation.) So, by now, this brazen
impostor has acquired the status of something like a new "Received
Text" -- a hollow effigy that everybody is afraid to touch. Like some
sort of a man-made idol, it is sitting there on its grand pedestal,
and staring at all of us with its beady eyes... There's really nothing
there but one big and empty DELUSION!
What an amazing failure that was -- a "Splendid Failure"!
It was not I, of course, who first came up with this "Splendid
Failure" sobriquet in regard to Hort's Greek text -- it was none other
than Prof. Kirsopp Lake, a highly respected textual critic. Lake said
this all the way back in 1904, after considering many of these same
matters that I've already mentioned above. According to Lake, Hort's
text "was one of those failures which are more important than most
successes". (I suppose what he meant was that Hort's was a worthwhile
attempt at assembling a modern critical text of the NT, and yet, in
the end, it failed spectacularly.)
HORT CONVICTS HIMSELF IN HIS OWN WORDS
In any case, in this article, I will not try to get into any of those
technical details of why Hort failed, and how he failed. Competent
critics have already written whole books about these matters, and some
of them can even be read for free on the Net.
[Here are some relevant links for those who want to confirm these
matters for themselves. While, myself, as a supporter of the Semitic
textual tradition, I don't necessarily agree with all of the arguments
that Pickering and Robinson are making, I find that most of their
criticisms of Hort are right on target.
"The Identity of the New Testament Text II", by Wilbur N. Pickering,
ThM PhD; see especially Chapters 4 and 6,
http://www.revisedstandardversion.net/text/WNP/index.html
Robinson, The case for Byzantine priority
http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/vol06/Robinson2001.html ]
What I will do now instead is focus on one specific quote from Hort
that seems extremely revealing... This quote alone shows quite well
that Hort really was a Fraud.
Either he was a fraud or severely deluded -- it doesn't really matter
which... The following quote really goes a long way to demonstrate
just how spectacularly wrong he was in his theorising about his
"original text of the gospels" -- about his attempts to reconstruct
such a text. This matter has to do with the fundamental question of
what motivated the ancient scribes when they introduced changes to the
text of the gospels.
Everybody who has ever bothered to read anything about NT textual
criticism will of course know that even our best ancient manuscripts
show massive variations among them. It is only the late medieval
manuscripts that are relatively free of variations. As has been
noticed by critic after critic, the earliest manuscripts are
particularly rife with variation.
So what sorts of variations are they? There are many types of them, of
course. A lot of them just seem like scribal mistakes, or perhaps some
minor attempts at stylistic improvement. But there are also many
attempted theological corrections and emendations of all sorts, that
one can see there...
There's nothing surprising in this, of course, because, in the early
centuries, there had been many well-attested theological disputes
among various orthodox and proto-orthodox factions. Some early fathers
like Tertullian were first seen as orthodox, but then they became
"heretics". Some "heretics" repented of their heresies, and became
orthodox. And some commentators, like Origen, were seen as fully
orthodox by some Christians of their time, but as "heretics" by
others. All of that is part of history. It is clear that the theology
of the young movement was still evolving, so naturally there were
disputes, and many of these disputes found their reflection in early
gospel manuscripts.
So one would assume that it is very important to be sensitive to these
things, right? A serious scholar cannot fail but pay attention to
these early theological disputes, and how they may have affected
copying and editing of various gospel passages... Seems only logical.
But what if a textual critic refused even to _acknowledge_ such a
possibility, i.e. that some of the variations in our early manuscripts
were due to theological considerations? Well, I, for one, wouldn't
trust such a critic much... In my view, to all intents and purposes,
such a critic has already disqualified him or herself as an objective
commentator on these matters. But this is exactly what Drs. Westcott &
Hort have done!
So this is what they said in their famous 1881 edition of the New
Testament; here is the quote that exposes them as out and out frauds
and/or incompetents,
"It will not be out of place to add here a distinct expression of our
belief that even among the numerous unquestionably spurious readings
of the New Testament there are no signs of deliberate falsification of
the text for dogmatic purposes." (Westcott and Hort, "The New
Testament in the Original Greek", London: Macmillan and Co., 1881,
Vol. 2, p. 282)
What an amazing blooper! The meaning of this, essentially, is that
there was NO EDITING OF THE GOSPELS AT ALL BASED ON THEOLOGICAL
CONSIDERATIONS!
And in order to show just how _bizarre_ this statement is, here are
the views of some other eminent textual critics -- some of the great
TC authorities commenting on this same matter,
Griesbach:
"The New Testament abounds in more losses, additions, and
interpolations, purposely introduced, than any other book."
Hug:
"the New Testament has had the peculiar fate of suffering more by
intentional alterations than the works of profane literature"
Colwell:
"The majority of the variant readings in the New Testament were
created for theological or dogmatic reasons."
Ehrman:
Ehrman's recent book on the subject is entitled "The Orthodox
Corruption of Scripture". Its title speaks for itself.
So preposterous is this "belief" that Hort had expressed that it came
to be attacked from all sides -- both by the conservative KJV
supporters, and by the textual scholars of a more liberal bent. As far
as the criticism from the conservatives goes, they were very eager to
point to the "heretics" who were certainly known to corrupt the
Scriptures in order to suit their doctrinal purposes, as the
statements of numerous early fathers indicate. Such statements were
made, for example, by Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Tertullian,
Eusebius, and by quite a few others. Marcion was probably the first
such heretic who was widely accused of remodelling the Gospel of Luke,
and the epistles of Paul according to his own preferences. Origen also
noted how often all sorts of scribes in his time corrupted the
scriptures.
And the more liberal scholars, who of course all warmly accept Hort's
baby, his reconstruction of the "Original Greek New Testament" (while
at the same time rejecting most of the theories that served as the
foundation for it!), were only too happy to point to the _orthodox_
editors and scribes as the ones with a certain penchant for
"fine-tuning" the Scriptures. The above mentioned study by Ehrman is a
case in point -- a whole volume filled to the brim with examples of
such tampering.
But we don't really need the _modern_ scholars to alert us to such a
tendency on the part of orthodox scribes (Ehrman's book can by no
means be seen as any sort of a big radical breakthrough in this area).
This phenomenon was already commented upon specifically even by the
fifth century Church father Epiphanius, for example, who stated that
some Orthodox copiers of his time deleted "he wept" from Luke 19:41
"out of jealousy for the Lord's divinity".
And so, what Hort said above was simply a denial of history -- an
attempt to filter reality, and to fit it into his own private mould,
so it doesn't conflict with his own peculiar ideology. It sure seems
like his ideology included a belief that the Christian faith is
immutable, and that the Christian doctrine had never undergone any
significant historical development at all... Only under such
conditions can his words begin to make any sense at all... Indeed,
_only_ if the Christian doctrine is immutable, and has always been so
-- only then it would never occur to anyone to change anything about
its particulars in a deliberate way, such as by trying to "fine-tune"
the text of the gospels...
So this is the scholar who had the final authority in deciding how our
"modern" text of the gospels is supposed to read today... This is the
scholar who had to make big decisions about which manuscript reading
to adopt in thousands upon thousands of passages!
Is this really the authority that anyone should trust with the work of
reconstructing the earliest text of the gospels? Not I. I don't trust
Hort at all.
CONCLUSION
So this one sure does seem like a truly bizarre story... The whole
thing really does look mighty strange... The traditional text of the
gospels had been hijacked by a severely deluded (if not a completely
fraudulent) ideologue, and replaced by a manifestly inferior product
_of his own creation_! And in spite of the warnings from many highly
reputable biblical commentators about Hort's failure (such as from
Prof. Lake above), this misbegotten fraud still rules our academic New
Testament studies today in a completely arbitrary and dictatorial way!
As an experiment, try to ask any mainstream biblical scholar about any
of these matters, and see what you get in reply. My bet is that he or
she will stare at you in a totally blank way, as if you've just fell
on earth from Planet Zircon. It never even occurred to them that
something might be wrong with their beloved Nestle/Aland's Greek text,
which is of course 99.5% identical to Hort's creation!
Dear, oh dear... I don't think that the world has seen such a blatant
and manifest imposture since that day long ago when Caligula made his
favourite horse a Roman senator.
And hundreds of millions Christians around the world today still rely
upon this text to teach them about the True Religion... A strange and
bizarre story, this one...
You know how it is in biblical studies... Scholars often argue till
blue in the face about the correct interpretation of _one single word_
in the Bible. They write whole books about some difficult _phrase_,
that they are trying to explain. And here we have the whole 6000 words
and phrases that Hort has changed around in one fell swoop... And
nobody seems to care about it much!
Strange and weird.
Regards,
Yuri.
Baqqesh shalom verodpehu -- Seek peace and pursue it (Psalm 34:15)
Yuri Kuchinsky -- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku -- Toronto
.

User: "randy"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 24 Nov 2003 02:16:34 PM
"Yuri Kuchinsky"

After studying these matters for years, I've concluded that the
"improved text", so-called, that Hort & Co. introduced was not an
improvement at all, but a total and unqualified DISASTER -- far
inferior to the traditional Majority/Byzantine text.

First you say that Hort & Co. was wrong to assert *by their own authority*
that the Majority/Byzantine text was wrong. And then you proceed to assert
*by your own authority* that Hort & Co. was wrong? So whose authority are we
to go by? Your argument that the Majority/ Byzantine text had to be right
just because it was used so extensively could be used to justify the Flat
Earth Society! You would end up without a reformation of Catholic doctrines
and practises. The real question, therefore, seems to be: did Hort & Co.
have a legitimate basis for doctoring with/reforming the Majority/Byzantine
text? And I think a majority of scholars today would admit that earlier
manuscripts hold greater weight than later manuscripts. That is, the
Majority/Byzantine text must be judged against earlier manuscripts, whether
in fragments, in quotations, in whole, or whatever. In fact, the
multiplication of different readings may complicate the process, but it
certainly lends to a more scientific approach to determining the original
manuscripts.
You argue that few know much about textual criticism, and I admit I lack
knowledge in this department. But my brother recently gave me an
authoritative work, in argument against the Majority/Byzantine position,
against the exclusive KJV position: "The Text of The New Testament, by Kurt
Aland and Barbara Aland. I think it's well worth anybody's reading, if they
want to consider both sides of this argument. It would be wrong to just take
your word for it. It isn't much of an argument to say that the
Majority/Byzantine text is right because that is what God used for a long,
long time. It would be just as true to say that God used it for a long, long
time because there was enough truth there to carry the ancient world into
the modern world. But now God would have us dig for greater details, bearing
in mind that we live in an inquisitive Modern World.
Keep in mind that when you argue that the earlier texts are rife with
theological modifications of the text, you could argue the precise thing for
the Majority/Byzantine text! And you seem to be arguing against yourself
here, by asserting that the earlier texts were corrupted, while the
Majority/Byzantine text could *not* have been corrupted!
Regardly, you bring up very interesting thoughts, and I'll consider them as
I study the above-mentioned book.
randy
.
User: "Yuri Kuchinsky"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 25 Nov 2003 11:44:06 AM
In soc.history.ancient randy <rkluth53@msn.com> wrote:

"Yuri Kuchinsky" wrote:

After studying these matters for years, I've concluded that the
"improved text", so-called, that Hort & Co. introduced was not an
improvement at all, but a total and unqualified DISASTER -- far
inferior to the traditional Majority/Byzantine text.


First you say that Hort & Co. was wrong to assert *by their own
authority* that the Majority/Byzantine text was wrong.

Not quite, Randy. Rather, I'm saying that the text that Hort
introduced was mostly based on his own authority.
As to the Byzantine text being wrong, this was based on more than
Hort's authority.

And then you proceed to assert *by your own authority* that Hort &
Co. was wrong? So whose authority are we to go by?

I cited four respected scholars to show that Hort was wrong about his
specific statement that I gave.

Your argument that the Majority/ Byzantine text had to be right
just because it was used so extensively could be used to justify
the Flat Earth Society!

But I never said this!

You would end up without a reformation of Catholic doctrines and
practises. The real question, therefore, seems to be: did Hort &
Co. have a legitimate basis for doctoring with/reforming the
Majority/Byzantine text? And I think a majority of scholars today
would admit that earlier manuscripts hold greater weight than
later manuscripts.

You're right, that's about the only argument to back Hort up. But it's
a plainly fallacious argument. Because early MSS are not always the
better MSS.

That is, the Majority/Byzantine text must be judged against
earlier manuscripts, whether in fragments, in quotations, in
whole, or whatever.

But the patristic citations don't support Hort. Rather, they mostly
support the Western text (what I prefer to describe as
Western/Peripheral text). Myself, I'm not a Byzantine prioritist
per se.

In fact, the multiplication of different readings may complicate
the process, but it certainly lends to a more scientific approach
to determining the original manuscripts.

You argue that few know much about textual criticism, and I admit
I lack knowledge in this department. But my brother recently gave
me an authoritative work, in argument against the
Majority/Byzantine position, against the exclusive KJV position:
"The Text of The New Testament, by Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland. I
think it's well worth anybody's reading, if they want to consider
both sides of this argument.

The Alands are the supporters of the status quo. By all means, read
their book, but I think it's very one-sided and biased.

It would be wrong to just take your word for it.

You don't need to take my word for anything.

It isn't much of an argument to say that the Majority/Byzantine
text is right because that is what God used for a long, long time.

But I never said this!

It would be just as true to say that God used it for a long, long
time because there was enough truth there to carry the ancient
world into the modern world. But now God would have us dig for
greater details, bearing in mind that we live in an inquisitive
Modern World.

Keep in mind that when you argue that the earlier texts are rife
with theological modifications of the text, you could argue the
precise thing for the Majority/Byzantine text! And you seem to be
arguing against yourself here, by asserting that the earlier texts
were corrupted, while the Majority/Byzantine text could *not* have
been corrupted!

You misunderstand. I'm not saying that Majority/Byzantine text is the
best text. Myself, I'm a supporter of the Semitic textual tradition of
the gospels, such as the Aramaic.

Regardly, you bring up very interesting thoughts, and I'll
consider them as I study the above-mentioned book.

randy

Good luck.
Yuri.
Baqqesh shalom verodpehu -- Seek peace and pursue it (Psalm 34:15)
Yuri Kuchinsky -- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku -- Toronto
.
User: "randy"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 25 Nov 2003 02:27:07 PM
"Yuri Kuchinsky"

...You misunderstand. I'm not saying that Majority/Byzantine text is the
best text. Myself, I'm a supporter of the Semitic textual tradition of
the gospels, such as the Aramaic.

Regardly, you bring up very interesting thoughts, and I'll
consider them as I study the above-mentioned book.

randy


Good luck.

Yuri.

I've found past posts of yours interesting, and I'll continue to read them
on occasion. Thanks for your thoughts. I'll honestly consider your views as
I get more educated on the subject.
randy
.
User: "Didymoss"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 27 Nov 2003 11:12:32 AM
"randy" <rkluth53@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bq0dv0$1skbol$1@ID-202063.news.uni-berlin.de...


"Yuri Kuchinsky"

...You misunderstand. I'm not saying that Majority/Byzantine text is the
best text. Myself, I'm a supporter of the Semitic textual tradition of
the gospels, such as the Aramaic.

Regardly, you bring up very interesting thoughts, and I'll
consider them as I study the above-mentioned book.

randy


Good luck.

Yuri.


I've found past posts of yours interesting, and I'll continue to read them
on occasion. Thanks for your thoughts. I'll honestly consider your views

as

I get more educated on the subject.

randy


You are on the right track with Alands' book. May I suggest Bruce Metzger
and Kirsopp Lake also? Are you unaware that Kuchinsky believes Kurt and
Barbara Aland to be frauds and liars? Their scholarship is monumental and
well sourced, and they are thoroughly expert in the lanugages, and none of
those attributes apply to Kuchinsky. Ask him for his manuscript evidence
sometime. He even called codex Bezae one of the "oldest" manuscripts . . .
geez.
.
User: "randy"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 28 Nov 2003 02:08:25 PM
"Didymoss"

"randy"
You are on the right track with Alands' book. May I suggest Bruce

Metzger

and Kirsopp Lake also? Are you unaware that Kuchinsky believes Kurt and
Barbara Aland to be frauds and liars? Their scholarship is monumental and
well sourced, and they are thoroughly expert in the lanugages, and none of
those attributes apply to Kuchinsky. Ask him for his manuscript evidence
sometime. He even called codex Bezae one of the "oldest" manuscripts . .

..

geez.

Yes, I agree more with you. I find yuri interesting because he's involved in
questioning the evidence. I give him credit because I lack knowledge
personally. But yes, I agree more with you. :)
randy
.
User: "Didymoss"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 30 Nov 2003 02:43:57 PM
"randy" <rkluth53@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bq8a00$1v1a6n$1@ID-202063.news.uni-berlin.de...


"Didymoss"

"randy"


You are on the right track with Alands' book. May I suggest Bruce

Metzger

and Kirsopp Lake also? Are you unaware that Kuchinsky believes Kurt and
Barbara Aland to be frauds and liars? Their scholarship is monumental

and

well sourced, and they are thoroughly expert in the lanugages, and none

of

those attributes apply to Kuchinsky. Ask him for his manuscript

evidence

sometime. He even called codex Bezae one of the "oldest" manuscripts .

..

.

geez.


Yes, I agree more with you. I find yuri interesting because he's involved

in

questioning the evidence. I give him credit because I lack knowledge
personally. But yes, I agree more with you. :)

randy

I find the scholarship of Mr Yuri Kuchinsky, Bachelor of Arts, totally
lacking credibility. I ceased to find him "interesting" because of his
method. Kuchinsky evades questions, fails to produce evidence other than
his unsubstantiated personal opinion, prevaricates, obfuscates, and cites
his own internet posts as expert testimony yet consistently refused to
produce his vita to establish his qualifications as an expert. It is
screamingly obvious that he has never read many of the manuscripts he refers
to, and indeed was unable to translates a few simple words of Greek unicals
I posted. He has this penchant (along with a few others) for negating the
value of any manuscript or fragment predating the 4th century. And Mr
Kuchinsky even holds valueless manuscripts of well over 100 pages because
they are "not complete." And he claims to have "translated" the Pepsyian
Gospel Harmony . . . Is Middle English really that incomprehensible? Geez,
my profs kind of insisted that we read Chaucer without "translation."
.

User: "Yuri Kuchinsky"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 30 Nov 2003 09:03:47 AM
"randy" <rkluth53@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bq8a00$1v1a6n$1@ID-202063.news.uni-berlin.de>...

"Didymoss"

"randy"


You are on the right track with Alands' book. May I suggest Bruce

Metzger

and Kirsopp Lake also? Are you unaware that Kuchinsky believes Kurt and
Barbara Aland to be frauds and liars? Their scholarship is monumental and
well sourced, and they are thoroughly expert in the lanugages, and none of
those attributes apply to Kuchinsky. Ask him for his manuscript evidence
sometime. He even called codex Bezae one of the "oldest" manuscripts . .

.

geez.


Yes, I agree more with you. I find yuri interesting because he's involved in
questioning the evidence. I give him credit because I lack knowledge
personally. But yes, I agree more with you. :)

randy

Well, Randy, you gotta be careful who you agree with. :) Myself, I've
tried to reason with this fellow "Didymoss" for a while but, because
he so often descends into personal attacks, I found it impossible to
have a rational conversation with him. So, in the end, I had to filter
his posts.
He also often tends to misrepresent what his opponents say. For
example, see how he misrepresents above about what I said about the
Codex Bezae. I've been working with Bezae for years, both with its
Greek and Latin sides, so I think I should know by now how old this MS
is... It is indeed one of our oldest _complete_ manuscripts. Of course
there are now quite a few Papyri that are older, but they are all very
fragmentary, and full of obvious errors. Many of these Papyri only
contain a few lines of text.
Regards,
Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.globalserve.net/~yuku
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people?
.
User: "randy"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 02 Dec 2003 01:02:58 PM
"Yuri Kuchinsky"

"randy"
Well, Randy, you gotta be careful who you agree with. :) Myself, I've
tried to reason with this fellow "Didymoss" for a while but, because
he so often descends into personal attacks, I found it impossible to
have a rational conversation with him. So, in the end, I had to filter
his posts.

He also often tends to misrepresent what his opponents say. For
example, see how he misrepresents above about what I said about the
Codex Bezae. I've been working with Bezae for years, both with its
Greek and Latin sides, so I think I should know by now how old this MS
is... It is indeed one of our oldest _complete_ manuscripts. Of course
there are now quite a few Papyri that are older, but they are all very
fragmentary, and full of obvious errors. Many of these Papyri only
contain a few lines of text.

Yuri, I assure you my mind is open. I'm only beginning with a certain pov.
It's a very interesting subject, and you handle it with a good spirit and
with a thorough knowledge of the subject. So I respect you and look forward
to asking some difficult questions in the near future. God bless,
randy
.







User: "Sam Taylor"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 24 Nov 2003 05:10:21 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:19:58 GMT, Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@clio.trends.ca>
wrote:


THE EMPTY SHELL OF WESTCOTT & HORT

by Yuri Kuchinsky

Dr. Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) has been a highly influential
figure in biblical history, although very few of today's Christians
have even heard about him. He and his partner Brooke Foss Westcott
(1825-1903) were responsible for the greatest feat in biblical textual
criticism. They were responsible for undermining the text of the
Authorised Version (the KJV), which led to its eventual abandonment by
all mainstream Christian Churches.

KJV New Testament was, of course, based on the Greek text that is
known as the Majority/Byzantine text. This is the traditional text

1 The King Jimmy was translated from ---GERMAN--- not from any greek
text.
2 Then the ENGLISH translation of the GERMAN was then Translated
into LATIN This LATIN Translation was to prove the Translation
Of the GERMAN to ENGLISH Translation, it was called a TEXTUS
RECEPTUS or "RECIEVED TEXT"
3 This TEXTUS RECEPTUS was then Compared into other text of the day
mostly poor LATIN text and even worst GREEK text, today which many
translators would never use, as they contain spurious texts and flaws
in reason or uniform translatory Laws.

that the Church copied and preserved throughout the centuries. And
yet, mainly because of Hort (who was the guiding light of this dynamic
duo), this traditional text was abandoned, and it was replaced... with
Hort's own creation! So this was published first in 1881, and it took
the world by storm. As a result, almost every modern translation of
the gospels (such as the RSV, NIV, NASB, etc.) is based essentially on
Hort's Greek text -- the text that did not even exist before the 19th
century!

So then what was the basis of Hort's 1881 edition? It was based on a
small handful of Egyptian Greek manuscripts dated to the 4th and 5th
centuries. But there are many problems with these manuscripts, because
they constantly disagree with each other -- in thousands of
passages... So how did he decide which of them to use for any
particular verse of his brand-new text that he was building up?
Essentially, when all is said and done, he based his decisions upon
his own authority.

As a result, in the 4 gospels alone, Hort's text has about 6000
differences from the traditional Byzantine text. Many of these
differences are very substantial indeed, and affect all sorts of
matters of biblical interpretation. And it is all based on the
authority of Hort (plus a few other scholars who collaborated with
him).

So this is what the overwhelming majority of biblical scholars, as
well the majority of the rank-and-file Christians, of course, still
use today...

Now, to be sure, the overwhelming majority of today's biblical
scholars don't really know all that much about NT textual criticism
(and this fact is well known among the actual text critical
_specialists_, of which there are very few indeed). Most NT scholars
simply follow in the footsteps of those who taught them, and they of
course also relied on Westcott & Hort's Greek text in their
interpretative work. So this is a new "tradition" that Hort created,
and it is very rarely if at all questioned today in the halls of
academe. But I'm saying that the whole thing was nothing but a MASSIVE
DELUSION.

After studying these matters for years, I've concluded that the
"improved text", so-called, that Hort & Co. introduced was not an
improvement at all, but a total and unqualified DISASTER -- far
inferior to the traditional Majority/Byzantine text.


WHOSE AUTHORITY?

So, in the final analysis, this whole attempted "improvement", which
resulted in all these "modern" translations of the gospels, was really
based on Hort's own personal authority. He was the leader in that late
19th century movement to dump the traditional text of the gospels. As
I say, there are many thousands of disagreements among these 4 or 5
Egyptian manuscripts that he was primarily using and, in each single
one of these cases, it was Hort, himself, who had to make a decision
as to what goes into his text, and what stays out of it.

Of course, in his many writings, Hort did try to offer some sort of a
scientific justification for all these editorial changes that he was
making -- thousands upon thousands of them. He did try to formulate a
variety of theories about the Majority text; about his beloved
Egyptian manuscripts; about how all of these derived; their
hypothetical sources; their interrelationships, and about the
historical settings for all these developments. But the problem is
that, over the years... virtually all of his theories have now been
completely abandoned by the mainstream textual critics!

And so, nobody is any longer taking seriously his "Neutral text"
theory, or his "Alexandrian text" theory, or his "Syrian recension"
theory... It is generally known that he never actually applied his
vaunted genealogical method to real manuscripts (as opposed to the
hypothetical ones)... The criticisms that he levelled at the Majority
text, such as his theories about the supposed "conflations" and
"harmonisations" within it have all been answered very competently by
highly skilful textual scholars such as Robinson and Pickering...

Thus, it is very clear by now that Hort didn't have the history of the
text -- all of his explanations as to how and in what historical
circumstances our earliest manuscripts and text-types originated are
now universally rejected. He never produced a general stemma of the
earliest Greek manuscripts -- in fact, no such stemma has been
produced even up to the present day. (A stemma is a diagram that shows
the parent/child relationships between various manuscripts of an
ancient work.)

There's virtually nothing left out there of Hort's original
theorising, what actually _paved the way_ for that big 19th century
take down of the Majority text... There's nothing left there at all
but an Empty Shell!

So this is what we have left then, ladies and gentlemen -- the Empty
Shell of Hort's theories... And yet, in some strange and miraculous
way, his Greek text still lingers on in academic circles, as if there
were nothing wrong with it at all! (As Robinson notes, the latest
edition of Nestle/Aland, this mainstream academic Greek NT, is still
99.5% identical to Hort's original creation.) So, by now, this brazen
impostor has acquired the status of something like a new "Received
Text" -- a hollow effigy that everybody is afraid to touch. Like some
sort of a man-made idol, it is sitting there on its grand pedestal,
and staring at all of us with its beady eyes... There's really nothing
there but one big and empty DELUSION!

What an amazing failure that was -- a "Splendid Failure"!

It was not I, of course, who first came up with this "Splendid
Failure" sobriquet in regard to Hort's Greek text -- it was none other
than Prof. Kirsopp Lake, a highly respected textual critic. Lake said
this all the way back in 1904, after considering many of these same
matters that I've already mentioned above. According to Lake, Hort's
text "was one of those failures which are more important than most
successes". (I suppose what he meant was that Hort's was a worthwhile
attempt at assembling a modern critical text of the NT, and yet, in
the end, it failed spectacularly.)


HORT CONVICTS HIMSELF IN HIS OWN WORDS

In any case, in this article, I will not try to get into any of those
technical details of why Hort failed, and how he failed. Competent
critics have already written whole books about these matters, and some
of them can even be read for free on the Net.

[Here are some relevant links for those who want to confirm these
matters for themselves. While, myself, as a supporter of the Semitic
textual tradition, I don't necessarily agree with all of the arguments
that Pickering and Robinson are making, I find that most of their
criticisms of Hort are right on target.

"The Identity of the New Testament Text II", by Wilbur N. Pickering,
ThM PhD; see especially Chapters 4 and 6,
http://www.revisedstandardversion.net/text/WNP/index.html

Robinson, The case for Byzantine priority
http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/vol06/Robinson2001.html ]

What I will do now instead is focus on one specific quote from Hort
that seems extremely revealing... This quote alone shows quite well
that Hort really was a Fraud.

Either he was a fraud or severely deluded -- it doesn't really matter
which... The following quote reall goes a long way to demonstrate
just how spectacularly wrong he was in his theorising about his
"original text of the gospels" -- about his attempts to reconstruct
such a text. This matter has to do with the fundamental question of
what motivated the ancient scribes when they introduced changes to the
text of the gospels.

Everybody who has ever bothered to read anything about NT textual
criticism will of course know that even our best ancient manuscripts
show massive variations among them. It is only the late medieval
manuscripts that are relatively free of variations. As has been
noticed by critic after critic, the earliest manuscripts are
particularly rife with variation.

So what sorts of variations are they? There are many types of them, of
course. A lot of them just seem like scribal mistakes, or perhaps some
minor attempts at stylistic improvement. But there are also many
attempted theological corrections and emendations of all sorts, that
one can see there...

There's nothing surprising in this, of course, because, in the early
centuries, there had been many well-attested theological disputes
among various orthodox and proto-orthodox factions. Some early fathers
like Tertullian were first seen as orthodox, but then they became
"heretics". Some "heretics" repented of their heresies, and became
orthodox. And some commentators, like Origen, were seen as fully
orthodox by some Christians of their time, but as "heretics" by
others. All of that is part of history. It is clear that the theology
of the young movement was still evolving, so naturally there were
disputes, and many of these disputes found their reflection in early
gospel manuscripts.

So one would assume that it is very important to be sensitive to these
things, right? A serious scholar cannot fail but pay attention to
these early theological disputes, and how they may have affected
copying and editing of various gospel passages... Seems only logical.

But what if a textual critic refused even to _acknowledge_ such a
possibility, i.e. that some of the variations in our early manuscripts
were due to theological considerations? Well, I, for one, wouldn't
trust such a critic much... In my view, to all intents and purposes,
such a critic has already disqualified him or herself as an objective
commentator on these matters. But this is exactly what Drs. Westcott &
Hort have done!

So this is what they said in their famous 1881 edition of the New
Testament; here is the quote that exposes them as out and out frauds
and/or incompetents,

"It will not be out of place to add here a distinct expression of our
belief that even among the numerous unquestionably spurious readings
of the New Testament there are no signs of deliberate falsification of
the text for dogmatic purposes." (Westcott and Hort, "The New
Testament in the Original Greek", London: Macmillan and Co., 1881,
Vol. 2, p. 282)

What an amazing blooper! The meaning of this, essentially, is that
there was NO EDITING OF THE GOSPELS AT ALL BASED ON THEOLOGICAL
CONSIDERATIONS!

And in order to show just how _bizarre_ this statement is, here are
the views of some other eminent textual critics -- some of the great
TC authorities commenting on this same matter,

Griesbach:

"The New Testament abounds in more losses, additions, and
interpolations, purposely introduced, than any other book."

Hug:

"the New Testament has had the peculiar fate of suffering more by
intentional alterations than the works of profane literature"

Colwell:

"The majority of the variant readings in the New Testament were
created for theological or dogmatic reasons."

Ehrman:

Ehrman's recent book on the subject is entitled "The Orthodox
Corruption of Scripture". Its title speaks for itself.

So preposterous is this "belief" that Hort had expressed that it came
to be attacked from all sides -- both by the conservative KJV
supporters, and by the textual scholars of a more liberal bent. As far
as the criticism from the conservatives goes, they were very eager to
point to the "heretics" who were certainly known to corrupt the
Scriptures in order to suit their doctrinal purposes, as the
statements of numerous early fathers indicate. Such statements were
made, for example, by Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Tertullian,
Eusebius, and by quite a few others. Marcion was probably the first
such heretic who was widely accused of remodelling the Gospel of Luke,
and the epistles of Paul according to his own preferences. Origen also
noted how often all sorts of scribes in his time corrupted the
scriptures.

And the more liberal scholars, who of course all warmly accept Hort's
baby, his reconstruction of the "Original Greek New Testament" (while
at the same time rejecting most of the theories that served as the
foundation for it!), were only too happy to point to the _orthodox_
editors and scribes as the ones with a certain penchant for
"fine-tuning" the Scriptures. The above mentioned study by Ehrman is a
case in point -- a whole volume filled to the brim with examples of
such tampering.

But we don't really need the _modern_ scholars to alert us to such a
tendency on the part of orthodox scribes (Ehrman's book can by no
means be seen as any sort of a big radical breakthrough in this area).
This phenomenon was already commented upon specifically even by the
fifth century Church father Epiphanius, for example, who stated that
some Orthodox copiers of his time deleted "he wept" from Luke 19:41
"out of jealousy for the Lord's divinity".

And so, what Hort said above was simply a denial of history -- an
attempt to filter reality, and to fit it into his own private mould,
so it doesn't conflict with his own peculiar ideology. It sure seems
like his ideology included a belief that the Christian faith is
immutable, and that the Christian doctrine had never undergone any
significant historical development at all... Only under such
conditions can his words begin to make any sense at all... Indeed,
_only_ if the Christian doctrine is immutable, and has always been so
-- only then it would never occur to anyone to change anything about
its particulars in a deliberate way, such as by trying to "fine-tune"
the text of the gospels...

So this is the scholar who had the final authority in deciding how our
"modern" text of the gospels is supposed to read today... This is the
scholar who had to make big decisions about which manuscript reading
to adopt in thousands upon thousands of passages!

Is this really the authority that anyone should trust with the work of
reconstructing the earliest text of the gospels? Not I. I don't trust
Hort at all.


CONCLUSION

So this one sure does seem like a truly bizarre story... The whole
thing really does look mighty strange... The traditional text of the
gospels had been hijacked by a severely deluded (if not a completely
fraudulent) ideologue, and replaced by a manifestly inferior product
_of his own creation_! And in spite of the warnings from many highly
reputable biblical commentators about Hort's failure (such as from
Prof. Lake above), this misbegotten fraud still rules our academic New
Testament studies today in a completely arbitrary and dictatorial way!

As an experiment, try to ask any mainstream biblical scholar about any
of these matters, and see what you get in reply. My bet is that he or
she will stare at you in a totally blank way, as if you've just fell
on earth from Planet Zircon. It never even occurred to them that
something might be wrong with their beloved Nestle/Aland's Greek text,
which is of course 99.5% identical to Hort's creation!

Dear, oh dear... I don't think that the world has seen such a blatant
and manifest imposture since that day long ago when Caligula made his
favourite horse a Roman senator.

And hundreds of millions Christians around the world today still rely
upon this text to teach them about the True Religion... A strange and
bizarre story, this one...

You know how it is in biblical studies... Scholars often argue till
blue in the face about the correct interpretation of _one single word_
in the Bible. They write whole books about some difficult _phrase_,
that they are trying to explain. And here we have the whole 6000 words
and phrases that Hort has changed around in one fell swoop... And
nobody seems to care about it much!

Strange and weird.

Regards,

Yuri.

Baqqesh shalom verodpehu -- Seek peace and pursue it (Psalm 34:15)

Yuri Kuchinsky -- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku -- Toronto

.
User: ""

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 24 Nov 2003 07:29:01 PM
Hello
(Sam Taylor),
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:19:58 GMT, Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@clio.trends.ca>
wrote:


THE EMPTY SHELL OF WESTCOTT & HORT

by Yuri Kuchinsky

Dr. Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) has been a highly influential
figure in biblical history, although very few of today's Christians
have even heard about him. He and his partner Brooke Foss Westcott
(1825-1903) were responsible for the greatest feat in biblical textual
criticism. They were responsible for undermining the text of the
Authorised Version (the KJV), which led to its eventual abandonment by
all mainstream Christian Churches.

KJV New Testament was, of course, based on the Greek text that is
known as the Majority/Byzantine text. This is the traditional text

1 The King Jimmy was translated from ---GERMAN--- not from any greek
text.
2 Then the ENGLISH translation of the GERMAN was then Translated
into LATIN This LATIN Translation was to prove the Translation

I don't know where you got this "information," but after studying the
Bible, its origins, how it was translated, from what it was
translated, etc. for over 42 years I have to tell you this was the
FUNNIEST claim I have ever heard!
The KJV new testament was translated from the 3rd and 4th editions of
Erasmus' Greek Texts, which were produced from 11th and 12th century
fragments of the Greek texts.
The "GERMAN" and then "into LATIN" crud is so bogus as to be something
from someone's rabid imagination! LOL!
For starters, you might look at Zondervan's Pictoral Encyclopedia of
the Bible, a good basic starting point from which to learn. There are
about 30 pages on the textual sources for our Bible, along with some
good stuff on the KJV as well.
But to pull such CRUD out of the AIR is simply STUPID!


Of the GERMAN to ENGLISH Translation, it was called a TEXTUS
RECEPTUS or "RECIEVED TEXT"

The Textus Receptus was a statement made at the beginning of the 15th
revision of Erasmus' 5th edition text GREEK. It had NOTHING AT ALL TO
DO WITH GERMAN OR ENGLISH.

3 This TEXTUS RECEPTUS was then Compared into other text of the day
mostly poor LATIN text and even worst GREEK text, today which many
translators would never use, as they contain spurious texts and flaws
in reason or uniform translatory Laws.

Reason and "translatory Laws" seem to be beyond you, and you haven't a
CLUE what you are talking about! LOL!
Perhaps you would care to CITE something to support your theories????
Betcha can't!


<snipped the rest; you didn't respond to it anyway.>
in Jesus Christ,
Christian
.
User: "sussmanbern"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 25 Nov 2003 02:15:56 PM
wrote in message news:<9lb5svsti77s29lt9l3610k5l6i7h1p34t@4ax.com>...
========
I disagree with you about the date of the Textus Receptus. The
expression was first used in the 1633 Elzevir edition of the Greek NT
to describe the 1624 edition (the expression is the Latin equivalent
of "best seller"). The term generally is applied to the whole
collection of the first 120 years (approx.) of printed Greek New
Testaments, from Erasmus (or the Complutensian Polyglot) to Mills or
thereabouts. In other words, it refers to the ONLY textual tradition
of the Greek NT available IN PRINTED FORM at the time of the KJV and
for some decades afterward. That collection consists of about 120
editions total, perhaps 15 or 20 of them noteworthy. Scrivener once
identified the underlying manuscripts for about 15 of the TR editions
and established that they were based on a cumulative total of only
about 100 manuscripts - most of which were fragmentary (sometimes less
than one complete book or epistle) and nearly all of them written
after the Crusades. The TR was distinguished by its availability, but
there is nothing to show that it is either holier or more accurate
than older manuscripts.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 30 Nov 2003 02:44:50 PM
Hello
(sussmanbern),
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :

christian@velocitus.net wrote in message news:<9lb5svsti77s29lt9l3610k5l6i7h1p34t@4ax.com>...
========
I disagree with you about the date of the Textus Receptus. The
expression was first used in the 1633 Elzevir edition of the Greek NT
to describe the 1624 edition (the expression is the Latin equivalent
of "best seller").

I stand corrected, you are correct. If you will note, I did say I was
operating on memory.
But the point is this: The TR did not BECOME the TR until 1633, so
the KJV WAS NOT translated from the TR.

The term generally is applied to the whole
collection of the first 120 years (approx.) of printed Greek New
Testaments, from Erasmus (or the Complutensian Polyglot) to Mills or
thereabouts. In other words, it refers to the ONLY textual tradition
of the Greek NT available IN PRINTED FORM at the time of the KJV and
for some decades afterward.

I will have to check that out. But whether it was available in
printed form or in manuscript form is not very important. The finds
since then are. All of Erasmus' texts were 11th and 12th century
manuscript fragments. Not ancient texts at all. Not "especially
good" texts, but merely "what was available at the time." Part of his
third edition were from fakes that his friend admitted were faked
later and were changed in the fourth edition.

That collection consists of about 120
editions total, perhaps 15 or 20 of them noteworthy. Scrivener once
identified the underlying manuscripts for about 15 of the TR editions
and established that they were based on a cumulative total of only
about 100 manuscripts - most of which were fragmentary (sometimes less
than one complete book or epistle) and nearly all of them written
after the Crusades. The TR was distinguished by its availability, but
there is nothing to show that it is either holier or more accurate
than older manuscripts.

I agree.
Thank you for correcting me on the date of the TR.
Christian
.
User: "sussmanbern"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 01 Dec 2003 11:36:36 AM
wrote in message news:<aalksvoucs5ve7itato54f8k7pk7p14rmj@4ax.com>...

I will have to check that out. But whether it was available in
printed form or in manuscript form is not very important. The finds
since then are. All of Erasmus' texts were 11th and 12th century
manuscript fragments. Not ancient texts at all. Not "especially
good" texts, but merely "what was available at the time." Part of his
third edition were from fakes that his friend admitted were faked
later and were changed in the fourth edition.

======
Not so much "faked" as worked up in an emergency. Erasmus was working
with Very fragmentary manuscripts, none of them a complete NT, in fact
hardly any a complete gospel or epistle. Only for a few patches of
the NT did he have TWO manuscripts to compare, for most he had only
one source whether it was reliable or not ... and for some patches
(esp in Revelation) he had no Greek ms at all. For those last,
Erasmus tried to fill the gap by backtranslating from the Latin
Vulgate into Greek. But it must be remembered that, until the end of
the 19th century, the NT dialect of Greek was very imperfectly
understood, both the grammar and vocabulary differed from Homeric or
Classical or other known forms of Greek (it was, until the end of the
19th century, sometimes superstitiously referred to as "Holy Ghost
Greek", there being a widespread belief that the language existed,
miraculously, only for the writing of the NT and nothing else, sort of
like the Mormon "Reformed Egyptian"); so any attempt at
backtranslating could not avoid serious problems.
Erasmus was not attempting to hoax his readers, he simply wanted
to supply them with a complete Greek text and did what some of us
might do in similar situations. Unfortunately the editors of
subsequent editions of the Greek NT used Erasmus's editions as one of
their sources, treating his own invented Greek text as if it came from
Greek manuscripts of equal or better authority than whatever Greek
manuscripts they had in front of them, so the problems in his
backtranslation were perpetuated.
Textus Receptus refers positively, absolutely, to the PRINTED
editions of the Greek NT in the first hundred (or maybe 120) years of
printing the Greek NT; it does not refer to any manuscript tradition.
The manuscripts making up the TR were simply those available to
editors at the time, which almost invariably means those that churches
and monasteries were willing to spare -- usually damaged or inferior
manuscripts -- and, as the saying goes, a river cannot rise above its
source. There are, among the 120-odd editions in that category,
thousands of variants, each edition differing from every other one,
even when edited or printed by the same person (Eduard Reuss published
a very informative catalogue of these, and the 1881 edition of
Scrivener's Greek NT According to the AV lists hundreds of these from
the leading TR editions). One of the odd beliefs of the KJV-Onliests
is a sort of superstition that the fact that the KJV (or the TR
editions) went through a printing press somehow magically corrected
any inherent errors and made them flawless and absolutely accurate
(even though there is a glaring typo in the first edition of the KJV
itself).
Editions differing markedly from the TR tradition do not begin to
appear until near the very end of the 17th century and even these do
not differ dramatically. Not till the 19th century, when the Codex
Vaticanus was finally made publicly available and the Codex Sinaiticus
was found, and photography made possible the printing of facsimiles of
ancient manuscripts, do we get seriously non-TR editions.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 03 Dec 2003 04:26:30 PM
Hello
(sussmanbern),
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :

christian@velocitus.net wrote in message news:<aalksvoucs5ve7itato54f8k7pk7p14rmj@4ax.com>...

I will have to check that out. But whether it was available in
printed form or in manuscript form is not very important. The finds
since then are. All of Erasmus' texts were 11th and 12th century
manuscript fragments. Not ancient texts at all. Not "especially
good" texts, but merely "what was available at the time." Part of his
third edition were from fakes that his friend admitted were faked
later and were changed in the fourth edition.

======
Not so much "faked" as worked up in an emergency.

No, actually FAKED. His friend told him he "found" the text in
question and Erasmus used it. After it was published, the friend told
Erasmus he had faked it to see if Erasmus would actually use it.

Erasmus was working
with Very fragmentary manuscripts, none of them a complete NT, in fact
hardly any a complete gospel or epistle.

Virtually none.

Only for a few patches of
the NT did he have TWO manuscripts to compare, for most he had only
one source whether it was reliable or not ... and for some patches
(esp in Revelation) he had no Greek ms at all. For those last,
Erasmus tried to fill the gap by backtranslating from the Latin
Vulgate into Greek.

Right. Not "backtranslating," but translating back. So errors were
most likely compounded, not undone by the procedure.
But in the end he did have a complete set of fragments (and many
overlaying partials), so he did not have to use the "retranslations."
But he never did have anything older than 11th century.

But it must be remembered that, until the end of
the 19th century, the NT dialect of Greek was very imperfectly
understood, both the grammar and vocabulary differed from Homeric or
Classical or other known forms of Greek (it was, until the end of the
19th century, sometimes superstitiously referred to as "Holy Ghost
Greek", there being a widespread belief that the language existed,
miraculously, only for the writing of the NT and nothing else, sort of
like the Mormon "Reformed Egyptian"); so any attempt at
backtranslating could not avoid serious problems.

Different from the mormon "Reformed Egyptian." There were writings in
existance of it. There are none of the mormon pretense.

Erasmus was not attempting to hoax his readers, he simply wanted
to supply them with a complete Greek text and did what some of us
might do in similar situations.

True, I agree completely.

Unfortunately the editors of
subsequent editions of the Greek NT used Erasmus's editions as one of
their sources, treating his own invented Greek text as if it came from
Greek manuscripts of equal or better authority than whatever Greek
manuscripts they had in front of them, so the problems in his
backtranslation were perpetuated.

The "retranslation" took place only in Erasmus' FIRST edition. His
subsequent four editions did not contain them. The KJV was
translated from the third and fourth editions, neither of which
contained any of the "retranslated" material.

Textus Receptus refers positively, absolutely, to the PRINTED
editions of the Greek NT in the first hundred (or maybe 120) years of
printing the Greek NT; it does not refer to any manuscript tradition.

It originated in 1633 with one SPECIFIC edition (and revisions of that
one SPECIFIC edition), and as you say it does not refer to any
manuscript tradition.

The manuscripts making up the TR were simply those available to
editors at the time, which almost invariably means those that churches
and monasteries were willing to spare -- usually damaged or inferior
manuscripts -- and, as the saying goes, a river cannot rise above its
source.

Agreed.
Gotta git. Have AWANA to teach tonight. Need to do some final
bookkeeping.
Christian
.

User: "Geoff Hudson"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 02 Dec 2003 03:49:17 PM
(sussmanbern) wrote in message news:<9d95e4ee.0312010936.149a76db@posting.google.com>...

christian@velocitus.net wrote in message news:<aalksvoucs5ve7itato54f8k7pk7p14rmj@4ax.com>...

I will have to check that out. But whether it was available in
printed form or in manuscript form is not very important. The finds
since then are. All of Erasmus' texts were 11th and 12th century
manuscript fragments. Not ancient texts at all. Not "especially
good" texts, but merely "what was available at the time." Part of his
third edition were from fakes that his friend admitted were faked
later and were changed in the fourth edition.

======
Not so much "faked" as worked up in an emergency. Erasmus was working
with Very fragmentary manuscripts, none of them a complete NT, in fact
hardly any a complete gospel or epistle. Only for a few patches of
the NT did he have TWO manuscripts to compare, for most he had only
one source whether it was reliable or not ... and for some patches
(esp in Revelation) he had no Greek ms at all. For those last,
Erasmus tried to fill the gap by backtranslating from the Latin
Vulgate into Greek. But it must be remembered that, until the end of
the 19th century, the NT dialect of Greek was very imperfectly
understood, both the grammar and vocabulary differed from Homeric or
Classical or other known forms of Greek (it was, until the end of the
19th century, sometimes superstitiously referred to as "Holy Ghost
Greek", there being a widespread belief that the language existed,
miraculously, only for the writing of the NT and nothing else, sort of
like the Mormon "Reformed Egyptian"); so any attempt at
backtranslating could not avoid serious problems.
Erasmus was not attempting to hoax his readers, he simply wanted
to supply them with a complete Greek text and did what some of us
might do in similar situations. Unfortunately the editors of
subsequent editions of the Greek NT used Erasmus's editions as one of
their sources, treating his own invented Greek text as if it came from
Greek manuscripts of equal or better authority than whatever Greek
manuscripts they had in front of them, so the problems in his
backtranslation were perpetuated.
Textus Receptus refers positively, absolutely, to the PRINTED
editions of the Greek NT in the first hundred (or maybe 120) years of
printing the Greek NT; it does not refer to any manuscript tradition.
The manuscripts making up the TR were simply those available to
editors at the time, which almost invariably means those that churches
and monasteries were willing to spare -- usually damaged or inferior
manuscripts -- and, as the saying goes, a river cannot rise above its
source. There are, among the 120-odd editions in that category,
thousands of variants, each edition differing from every other one,
even when edited or printed by the same person (Eduard Reuss published
a very informative catalogue of these, and the 1881 edition of
Scrivener's Greek NT According to the AV lists hundreds of these from
the leading TR editions). One of the odd beliefs of the KJV-Onliests
is a sort of superstition that the fact that the KJV (or the TR
editions) went through a printing press somehow magically corrected
any inherent errors and made them flawless and absolutely accurate
(even though there is a glaring typo in the first edition of the KJV
itself).
Editions differing markedly from the TR tradition do not begin to
appear until near the very end of the 17th century and even these do
not differ dramatically. Not till the 19th century, when the Codex
Vaticanus was finally made publicly available and the Codex Sinaiticus
was found, and photography made possible the printing of facsimiles of
ancient manuscripts, do we get seriously non-TR editions.

The simple truth is that no-one has been able to show easily that the
different extanct greek texts make much of a difference to our
understanding. If it had been possible, it would have been done. No
matter what source one considers, one is left with a second century
Jesus, Paul and Peter, superimposed on what is almost certainly a
first century record which will probably never be found in its
original form because the editors made jolly sure it was destroyed.
One is left largely with logical considerations. For example, why did
the four gospel stories begin with John, look as though were intended
to continue with John as the central character, but suddenly wipe him
from the face of the earth to make way for Jesus? Here is one very
smelly rat for starters.
Geoff
.




User: "Nearl J Icarus"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 25 Dec 2003 03:25:12 PM
In article <9lb5svsti77s29lt9l3610k5l6i7h1p34t@4ax.com>,
christian@velocitus.net says...

The KJV new testament was translated from the 3rd and 4th editions of
Erasmus' Greek Texts, which were produced from 11th and 12th century
fragments of the Greek texts.

The "GERMAN" and then "into LATIN" crud is so bogus as to be something
from someone's rabid imagination! LOL!

Just a question. If Erasmus' work was based on fragments, was the result of
his work a fragment? If not, what did he use to fill the holes in with?
Something you evidently hadn't thought of in all those 42 years of study. You
would make a good parrot. If all you can do is repeat what you're told without
being able to comprehend what you're saying.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 30 Dec 2003 09:55:38 AM
Hello Nearl J Icarus <nj_toothenbecker@hotmail.com>,
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :

In article <9lb5svsti77s29lt9l3610k5l6i7h1p34t@4ax.com>,
christian@velocitus.net says...

The KJV new testament was translated from the 3rd and 4th editions of
Erasmus' Greek Texts, which were produced from 11th and 12th century
fragments of the Greek texts.

The "GERMAN" and then "into LATIN" crud is so bogus as to be something
from someone's rabid imagination! LOL!


Just a question. If Erasmus' work was based on fragments, was the result of
his work a fragment? If not, what did he use to fill the holes in with?

When he put together his first edition he lacked parts of Revelation
and small parts of a couple of the epistles. To make a complete text,
he "re-translated" those parts of the Latin Vulgate back into Greek.
By the third edition he had sufficient fragments to form a complete
text.

Something you evidently hadn't thought of in all those 42 years of study. You
would make a good parrot. If all you can do is repeat what you're told without
being able to comprehend what you're saying.

Actually the question is simply not a valid question if you do the
study and examine exactly what it was that he did.
As to being a "good parrot," at least I DO the study and don't just
listen to people like you who haven't a CLUE what they are talking
about.
in Christ Jesus,
Christian
.

User: "disciple"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 25 Dec 2003 06:44:25 PM
Nearl J Icarus wrote in message ...

In article <9lb5svsti77s29lt9l3610k5l6i7h1p34t@4ax.com>,
christian@velocitus.net says...

The KJV new testament was translated from the 3rd and 4th editions of
Erasmus' Greek Texts, which were produced from 11th and 12th century
fragments of the Greek texts.

Not fragments. He had the whole text. The fragments were from old surviving
manuscripts from centuries past. The whole text was copied, word for word,
and recopied, and passed down every time the scrolls got old. The whole
byzantine text was available to Erasmus, but it was on newer parchiaments.
The manuscripts from which the textus receptus was taken are the majority of
the Greek manuscripts which agree with each other and have been accepted by
Bible believing Christians down through the centuries. The King James was
translated from these manuscripts. There are 5,309 surviving Greek
manuscripts that contain all or part of the New Testament. These manuscripts
agree together 95% of the time. The other 5% accounts for the differences
between the King James and the modern versions. The textus receptus, King
James, does not include the vaticanus and sinaiticus manuscripts from
Alexandrian Egypt; these are the corrupted manuscripts in question.
Manuscripts from which the modern versions are translated includes the
textus receptus plus the vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts. The modern
versions had to use the textus receptus since it contains the majority of
the surviving Greek manuscripts. The problem is that when the textus
receptus disagreed with the vaticanus or sainaiticus, they preferred these
corrupted manuscripts over the textus receptus. That accounts for the 5%
corruption in the modern versions. Where the textus receptus and the
vaticanus and sinaiticus do not agree, it is because Marcion, 120 - 160 AD
or Origin 184 - 254 AD [or whoever] corrupted those two manuscripts. (The
vaticanus and sinaiticus disagree with each other over 3000 times in the
gospels alone.)
The vast majority of the Greek manuscripts agree together. They have been
passed down through the centuries by true Bible believing Christians. In
1516 Erasmus compiled and printed the Greek (textus receptus) the received
text, from these manuscripts. This is the text that the protestants of the
reformation knew to be the Word of God, from which the King James Bible was
translated.
You see some of the manuscripts had the whole text; some were partial.
The above is excerpts from the book:
Lets Weigh the Evidence: Which Bible is the Real Word of God? By Barry
Burton. Find it here:
http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/0184.asp


The "GERMAN" and then "into LATIN" crud is so bogus as to be something
from someone's rabid imagination! LOL!


Just a question. If Erasmus' work was based on fragments, was the result of
his work a fragment? If not, what did he use to fill the holes in with?
Something you evidently hadn't thought of in all those 42 years of study.

You

would make a good parrot. If all you can do is repeat what you're told

without

being able to comprehend what you're saying.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

.
User: ""

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 30 Dec 2003 10:21:29 AM
Hello "disciple" <sagacity1@fastmail.fm>,
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :


Nearl J Icarus wrote in message ...

In article <9lb5svsti77s29lt9l3610k5l6i7h1p34t@4ax.com>,
christian@velocitus.net says...

The KJV new testament was translated from the 3rd and 4th editions of
Erasmus' Greek Texts, which were produced from 11th and 12th century
fragments of the Greek texts.


Not fragments. He had the whole text. The fragments were from old surviving
manuscripts from centuries past. The whole text was copied, word for word,
and recopied, and passed down every time the scrolls got old. The whole
byzantine text was available to Erasmus, but it was on newer parchiaments.

Not true. If it had been, then he would not have had to retranslate
Jerome's Latin Vulgate to come up with the end of Revelation and the
epistles he didn't have parts for.
While it is true that the whole texts were copied long before then,
but the fragments available to him were the remains of those texts
after they had been broken and destroyed by age, mishandling, etc. He
did not have the whole text. Check into it.

The manuscripts from which the textus receptus was taken are the majority of
the Greek manuscripts which agree with each other and have been accepted by
Bible believing Christians down through the centuries.

Oh yes, the old "KJV-onlier claim." The textus receptus became the
textus receptus 19 REVISIONS AFTER the KJV was translated and
contained THOUSANDS OF CHANGES from the Erasmus texts.
So which version is the "right" version?

The King James was translated from these manuscripts.

Not unless the King James version was begun in 1633, 22 years after it
was completed! TR didn't exist before then.

There are 5,309 surviving Greek
manuscripts that contain all or part of the New Testament.

You are outdated. Try 5,363.

These manuscripts
agree together 95% of the time.

They do indeed.

The other 5% accounts for the differences
between the King James and the modern versions.

No, the 5% is the amount that ALL OF THE TEXTS including those in the
TR disagree WITH EACH OTHER. NO TWO TEXTS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK please.

The textus receptus, King
James, does not include the vaticanus and sinaiticus manuscripts from
Alexandrian Egypt;

The King James Version did not come from the Textus Receptus. The TR
didn't come into being until 1633. It was CHANGED 19 TIMES from the
texts the KJV was translated from by the Beza Brothers, Stephanus, and
others. DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Don't just parrot what Chick and others
have fed you from their pseudoacademic works. They are frauds.

these are the corrupted manuscripts in question.

Hmm. Nobody but the KJV-onliers seem to think they were "corrupted."
But since we have many more texts from many more sources than just
vaticanus and Sinaiticus, your claim is bogus.
Besides, why would you prefer the humanist Roman Catholic monk
Erasmus' texts over the 5362 texts we have from the first centuries?
Do you somehow think the rcc monk was "inspired" in choosing which
fragments he used?

Manuscripts from which the modern versions are translated includes the
textus receptus plus the vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts.

Plus many other texts extant as well. DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Don't just
parrot the kjv-onlier propaganda.

The modern
versions had to use the textus receptus since it contains the majority of
the surviving Greek manuscripts.

No it doesn't. Since most of the surviving Greek manuscripts were not
FOUND until after 1633, none of those found later (the VAST majority)
were not available to be looked at at all. Again, you parrot the
kjv-onlier propaganda.

The problem is that when the textus
receptus disagreed with the vaticanus or sainaiticus, they preferred these
corrupted manuscripts over the textus receptus.

Frequently they prefer the OLDER and often MORE RELIABLE texts than
TR, stuff from the FIRST AND SECOND century instead from the 17th
century which were hand-copied over and over and over and over and
over and over over and over and over and over and over and over over
and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over
and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over
and over again, with errors being introduced with each copy.

That accounts for the 5%
corruption in the modern versions.

No "corruption" except by the kjv-onliers who have made a religion out
of a translation. The 5% difference is the difference between the
total of the texts. In the TR, much more than 5% was changed by
Stephanus, the Beza brothers, etc before it BECAME the TR. Of course
you don't want to call THAT 5%, a "corruption" because it disagrees
with your theory.

Where the textus receptus and the
vaticanus and sinaiticus do not agree, it is because Marcion, 120 - 160 AD
or Origin 184 - 254 AD [or whoever] corrupted those two manuscripts. (The
vaticanus and sinaiticus disagree with each other over 3000 times in the
gospels alone.)

TR and Erasmus 3 and 4 would "disagree" about the same amount. There
have been over 75,000 words changed in the KJV translation since it
first came out. WHICH KJV do you believe is the "right one?"

The vast majority of the Greek manuscripts agree together.

It is easy to see that you have learned NOTHING AT ALL about textual
criticism and that you have NO CLUE as to what you are talking about.
NO TWO TEXTS AGREE EXACTLY. But of course, you haven't done your
homework.

They have been
passed down through the centuries by true Bible believing Christians. In
1516 Erasmus compiled and printed the Greek (textus receptus) the received
text, from these manuscripts.

No, Erasmus compiled from fragments FIVE VERSIONS of Greek texts which
_19_ REVISIONS LATER, in 1633 BECAME Textus Receptus, the "received
text."

This is the text that the protestants of the
reformation knew to be the Word of God, from which the King James Bible was
translated.

The reformation took place in Germany and used a completely different
text, translated into German from the Latin Vulgate.
Chick and his cohorts are frauds.
I find it interesting and very sad how corrupted by lies the
kjv-onliers have become over the few years they have been in
existance. They tell stories without basis, then others of them
repeat those stories as though they were "gospel," propigating a whole
collection of lies built upon one another.
And there seems to not be a single bit of honest scholarship amongs
them.
in Christ Jesus,
Christian
.
User: "Yuri Kuchinsky"

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 03 Jan 2004 01:50:07 PM
In soc.history.ancient
wrote:
: Hello "disciple" <sagacity1@fastmail.fm>,
: you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
:>There are 5,309 surviving Greek
:>manuscripts that contain all or part of the New Testament.
: You are outdated. Try 5,363.
:>These manuscripts
:>agree together 95% of the time.
: They do indeed.
Says who?
Who did the counting?
:>The other 5% accounts for the differences
:>between the King James and the modern versions.
: No, the 5% is the amount that ALL OF THE TEXTS including those in the
: TR disagree WITH EACH OTHER.
What is the basis for your claim?
: NO TWO TEXTS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.
Yes, this part is correct.
: DO YOUR HOMEWORK please.
:>The textus receptus, King
:>James, does not include the vaticanus and sinaiticus manuscripts from
:>Alexandrian Egypt;
: The King James Version did not come from the Textus Receptus.
Depends on how you define Textus Receptus...
But, in any case, KJV came from something that is very similar to Textus
Receptus.
: The TR
: didn't come into being until 1633. It was CHANGED 19 TIMES from the
: texts the KJV was translated from by the Beza Brothers, Stephanus, and
: others. DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Don't just parrot what Chick and others
: have fed you from their pseudoacademic works. They are frauds.
:>these are the corrupted manuscripts in question.
: Hmm. Nobody but the KJV-onliers seem to think they were "corrupted."
I'm not a KJV-onlier, but I do think that the vaticanus and sinaiticus
manuscripts are highly corrupted.
Have it ever occurred to you, "christian", that the KJV-onliers could
still be right, but for a wrong reason?
(I think that the KJV-onliers are quite right when they say that KJV is a
better text than any Westcott & Hort based translation... although their
reasons for saying this may well be wrong.)
Happy New Year!
Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
Reality is that which, when you stop believing
in it, doesn't go away -=O=- Philip K. *****
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Westcott & Hort fraud 03 Jan 2004 04:38:20 PM
Hello Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@clio.trends.ca>,
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :

In soc.history.ancient

wrote:
: Hello "disciple" <sagacity1@fastmail.fm>,
: you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :

:>There are 5,309 surviving Greek
:>manuscripts that contain all or part of the New Testament.

: You are outdated. Try 5,363.

:>These manuscripts
:>agree together 95% of the time.

: They do indeed.

Says who?

Who did the counting?

:>The other 5% accounts for the differences
:>between the King James and the modern versions.

: No, the 5% is the amount that ALL OF THE TEXTS including those in the
: TR disagree WITH EACH OTHER.

What is the basis for your claim?

: NO TWO TEXTS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.

Yes, this part is correct.

: DO YOUR HOMEWORK please.

:>The textus receptus, King
:>James, does not include the vaticanus and sinaiticus manuscripts from
:>Alexandrian Egypt;

: The King James Version did not come from the Textus Receptus.

Depends on how you define Textus Receptus...

I define Textus Receptus as Textus Receptus did. It was the text
published in 1633. It (nor its compilers) never claimed that anything
previous to that time was "Textus Receptus."


But, in any case, KJV came from something that is very similar to Textus
Receptus.

SIMILAR, but 19 major DIFFERENCES earlier.

: The TR
: didn't come into being until 1633. It was CHANGED 19 TIMES from the
: texts the KJV was translated from by the Beza Brothers, Stephanus, and
: others. DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Don't just parrot what Chick and others
: have fed you from their pseudoacademic works. They are frauds.

:>these are the corrupted manuscripts in question.

: Hmm. Nobody but the KJV-onliers seem to think they were "corrupted."

I'm not a KJV-onlier, but I do think that the vaticanus and sinaiticus
manuscripts are highly corrupted.

And what do you base your belief on? Especially in light of the many
OTHER texts we now have?


Have it ever occurred to you, &quo