| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Carl" |
| Date: |
25 Jun 2007 05:36:23 PM |
| Object: |
What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
With so many cultists and heretics roaming Usenet attempting to pass
themeselves off as being Christian while spreading their false doctrines
like wolves in sheeps' clothing it is no wonder they scream and shout when
they are exposed by Christians for being false teachers. And there are
plenty of them: Steve Winter, "Bible Bob", "Rev. BR Collins", Donna Kupp,
etc. However there are Christians who feel we should merely pretend they are
not there and there are Christians who feel we should confront them directly
at every opportunity. Neither group is entirely right. Although it is right
that we, as Christians, are to oppose false teachings and use the Holy
Scriptures for teaching, rebuking, and correcting however I see no
scriptural basis for continously confronting the heretics directly over and
over again. Scripture is pretty clear that we are not to have anything to do
with heretics after they've been properly warned but scripture is also clear
that we are to hold to sound doctrine and share that sound doctrine with
others so that unsound doctrine (e.g. - heresies) will not flourish for such
heresies are from satan. We, as Christians, are to identify the heretic in
order to warn those Christians unfamiliar with the false teacher as well as
the new Christian. I believe Christians are to firmly stand in opposition to
unsound doctrine continually. I believe we Christians are to correct unsound
doctrine with scriptural doctrine uncompromisingly. I believe we Christians
are to identify heretics so other Christians may not be deceived by them.
However I also believe we Christians should do all that without engaging in
personal attacks, slander, etc. There is a Biblical way of rebuking false
teachings and teachers. Let's always try to do so in that Biblical manner.
Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing...". How can we know false prophets unless we test what they are
teaching by the Word of God? (Acts 17:11) If what they teach isn't in
harmony with the Scriptures then we are to correct them. If they keep
refusing the correction, then after proper warning, we should have nothing
to do with them. All through the Bible we find proof that they should be
identified and exposed.
We also identify heretics by their fruit:
"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from
thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good
fruit , but a bad tree bears bad fruit . A good tree cannot bear bad fruit,
and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit . Every tree that does not bear good
fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will
recognize them. (Matthew 7:16-20)
As we have all witnessed by such people as Steve Winter, "Bible Bob," "Rev.
BR Collins," Donna Kupp and other false teachers, they regularly exhibit bad
fruit though personal attacks, dishonesty, etc. All that on top of the false
doctrines they espouse. Jesus clearly taught that Christians are judge the
tree (person) by the fruit of their life and doctrine. We clearly are not
able to see what is within their hearts, but we can see what their words &
deeds and doctrine produce (fruit) [Matthew 12:35]. And in the case of the 4
individuals mentioned, their consistent words and actions indicate wicked
hearts.
One clarification needs to be made here. I am not saying nor implying that
Christians are perfect, life perfect lives and teach perfectly. That is
simply not the case. Christians are flawed individuals as well. However the
main difference is that the false teacher refuses correction and regularly
engages in unChristian behaviors that mark themselves as being false
teachers. However to be absolutely certain, Jesus taught us that our
discernment should not be made on appearances but by the Word of God (John
7:24). In 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 the apostle Paul judged with righteous
judgment and made clearcut discernments based on the Word of God.
A person who is able to discern between good and evil, has at least one of
the major marks of spiritual maturity.
"But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained
themselves to distinguish good from evil." (Hebrews 5:14)
In 1 Corinthians 12:10 discernment between what is false and what is true in
regards to Spiritual matters is indicated to be one of the gifts given
through the Holy Spirit.
It was important then to be able to discern the truth teacher from the false
teacher and it is just as important today. Those who are unwilling or unable
of discerning between good & evil, true teachers & false teachers, and
sound & unsound doctrine are in this manner revealing either their
disobedience or their immaturity. When Christians are unwilling or unable to
discern then false teachers are free to spread their poisonous doctrines to
the masses because of silence among those Bible believers.
We Christians are to TEST them: "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit,
but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false
prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) All those directly
claiming to be teachers of God's Word or acting as teachers of God's Word
are to be tested by God's Word. If they are teaching not in accordance with
God's Word then it is because they have not the light of God's Word within
them. (Isaiah 8:20) When heretics are known we are to IDENTIFY them and
AVOID them. (Romans 16:17) We are to REBUKE them. (Titus 1:13) We are to
REFUTE them while HOLING FIRMLY TO SOUND DOCTRINE. (Titus 1:9) We are to
have NOTHING to do with them and we are also to EXPOSE them. (Ephesians
5:11) We are to KEEP AWAY from them. (2 Thessalonians 3:6)
We Christians are to keep a wary eye out for all those preaching and
teaching false doctrine. We Christians are to oppose their teachings,
identify them as false teachers and reject them and their false teachings
after they have been duly warned. (Titus 3:10,11) Those who teach false
gospel accurse themselves by their heresies. (Galatians 1:6-9) We Christians
are to "contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the
saints." Why? "For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago
have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the
grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our
only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 3-4) In regards to heretics, we Christians
are required to identify them from their words & deeds and warn others. Just
as there were false prophets in Biblical times, there are false prophets
today. The words of warning that are contained in the Bible still pertain to
we Christians today. Heed those warnings, my brethren. Know who the enemy
is. Hold firmly to sound doctrine. And never let the heretics' heresies go
unchallenged. Present sound doctrine. Present it firmly and confidently. And
with God's blessings for it is indeed the right thing to do.
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be
false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies,
even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction
on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way
of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with
stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over
them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." (2 Peter 2:1-3)
.
|
|
| User: "Vernono O Here @there" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
25 Jun 2007 06:00:31 PM |
|
|
"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote in message
news:f5pg18$2en$1@news.utelfla.com...
With so many cultists and heretics roaming Usenet attempting to pass
themeselves off as being Christian while spreading their false doctrines
like wolves in sheeps' clothing it is no wonder they scream and shout when
they are exposed by Christians for being false teachers. And there are
plenty of them: Steve Winter, "Bible Bob", "Rev. BR Collins", Donna Kupp,
etc. However there are Christians who feel we should merely pretend they
are not there and there are Christians who feel we should confront them
directly at every opportunity. Neither group is entirely right. Although
it is right that we, as Christians, are to oppose false teachings and use
the Holy Scriptures for teaching, rebuking, and correcting however I see
no scriptural basis for continously confronting the heretics directly over
and over again. Scripture is pretty clear that we are not to have anything
to do with heretics after they've been properly warned but scripture is
also clear that we are to hold to sound doctrine and share that sound
doctrine with others so that unsound doctrine (e.g. - heresies) will not
flourish for such heresies are from satan. We, as Christians, are to
identify the heretic in order to warn those Christians unfamiliar with the
false teacher as well as the new Christian. I believe Christians are to
firmly stand in opposition to unsound doctrine continually. I believe we
Christians are to correct unsound doctrine with scriptural doctrine
uncompromisingly. I believe we Christians are to identify heretics so
other Christians may not be deceived by them. However I also believe we
Christians should do all that without engaging in personal attacks,
slander, etc. There is a Biblical way of rebuking false teachings and
teachers. Let's always try to do so in that Biblical manner.
Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing...". How can we know false prophets unless we test what they are
teaching by the Word of God? (Acts 17:11) If what they teach isn't in
harmony with the Scriptures then we are to correct them. If they keep
refusing the correction, then after proper warning, we should have nothing
to do with them. All through the Bible we find proof that they should be
identified and exposed.
We also identify heretics by their fruit:
"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from
thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good
fruit , but a bad tree bears bad fruit . A good tree cannot bear bad
fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit . Every tree that does not
bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit
you will recognize them. (Matthew 7:16-20)
As we have all witnessed by such people as Steve Winter, "Bible Bob,"
"Rev. BR Collins," Donna Kupp and other false teachers, they regularly
exhibit bad fruit though personal attacks, dishonesty, etc. All that on
top of the false doctrines they espouse. Jesus clearly taught that
Christians are judge the tree (person) by the fruit of their life and
doctrine. We clearly are not able to see what is within their hearts, but
we can see what their words & deeds and doctrine produce (fruit) [Matthew
12:35]. And in the case of the 4 individuals mentioned, their consistent
words and actions indicate wicked hearts.
One clarification needs to be made here. I am not saying nor implying that
Christians are perfect, life perfect lives and teach perfectly. That is
simply not the case. Christians are flawed individuals as well. However
the main difference is that the false teacher refuses correction and
regularly engages in unChristian behaviors that mark themselves as being
false teachers. However to be absolutely certain, Jesus taught us that our
discernment should not be made on appearances but by the Word of God (John
7:24). In 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 the apostle Paul judged with righteous
judgment and made clearcut discernments based on the Word of God.
A person who is able to discern between good and evil, has at least one of
the major marks of spiritual maturity.
"But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained
themselves to distinguish good from evil." (Hebrews 5:14)
In 1 Corinthians 12:10 discernment between what is false and what is true
in regards to Spiritual matters is indicated to be one of the gifts given
through the Holy Spirit.
It was important then to be able to discern the truth teacher from the
false teacher and it is just as important today. Those who are unwilling
or unable of discerning between good & evil, true teachers & false
teachers, and sound & unsound doctrine are in this manner revealing either
their disobedience or their immaturity. When Christians are unwilling or
unable to discern then false teachers are free to spread their poisonous
doctrines to the masses because of silence among those Bible believers.
We Christians are to TEST them: "Dear friends, do not believe every
spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because
many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) All those
directly claiming to be teachers of God's Word or acting as teachers of
God's Word are to be tested by God's Word. If they are teaching not in
accordance with God's Word then it is because they have not the light of
God's Word within them. (Isaiah 8:20) When heretics are known we are to
IDENTIFY them and AVOID them. (Romans 16:17) We are to REBUKE them. (Titus
1:13) We are to REFUTE them while HOLING FIRMLY TO SOUND DOCTRINE. (Titus
1:9) We are to have NOTHING to do with them and we are also to EXPOSE
them. (Ephesians 5:11) We are to KEEP AWAY from them. (2 Thessalonians
3:6)
We Christians are to keep a wary eye out for all those preaching and
teaching false doctrine. We Christians are to oppose their teachings,
identify them as false teachers and reject them and their false teachings
after they have been duly warned. (Titus 3:10,11) Those who teach false
gospel accurse themselves by their heresies. (Galatians 1:6-9) We
Christians are to "contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted
to the saints." Why? "For certain men whose condemnation was written about
long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who
change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus
Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 3-4) In regards to heretics, we
Christians are required to identify them from their words & deeds and warn
others. Just as there were false prophets in Biblical times, there are
false prophets today. The words of warning that are contained in the Bible
still pertain to we Christians today. Heed those warnings, my brethren.
Know who the enemy is. Hold firmly to sound doctrine. And never let the
heretics' heresies go unchallenged. Present sound doctrine. Present it
firmly and confidently. And with God's blessings for it is indeed the
right thing to do.
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will
be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive
heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift
destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will
bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will
exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long
been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." (2
Peter 2:1-3)
Good post.
On Usenet the temperance is in cutting off communication after some modicum
of interaction where the non-Christian gets into semantics or repetition.
It is also important to point out, not only error, but false representation.
There are Atheists pretending to be Christians with a different view.
We are told very explicitly to make good use of our time. Repetition to the
same heretic is time consuming. Other that being certain that "others" are
not lead astray we must remember John12:40. This includes those who have
created for themselves a very strong belief.
BUT
Even though we have been instructed very clearly to do the things you
mention, their salvation, if it is to occur is by the hand of God, not ours.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Carl" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
30 Jun 2007 01:33:08 PM |
|
|
"Vernono O" <Here @there> wrote in message
news:46804900$0$6400$882e0bbb@news.ThunderNews.com...
Good post.
On Usenet the temperance is in cutting off communication after some
modicum of interaction where the non-Christian gets into semantics or
repetition.
And where the non-Christian (whether be cultists, atheist, agnostic, etc.)
become disingenuous, abusive, etc.
It is also important to point out, not only error, but false
representation.
True. And the heretic's posts usually deteriorate into that.
There are Atheists pretending to be Christians with a different view.
True.
We are told very explicitly to make good use of our time. Repetition to
the same heretic is time consuming. Other that being certain that
"others" are not lead astray we must remember John12:40. This includes
those who have created for themselves a very strong belief.
BUT
Even though we have been instructed very clearly to do the things you
mention, their salvation, if it is to occur is by the hand of God, not
ours.
Agreed. I do not presume to know if a person is saved or not. I know, from
Biblical teachings, that who is saved is known to God and God alone. I will
properly claim their behavior and/or words are unBiblical or not. I will
properly point out if their behavior is abhorant to God. We Christians are
to discern those things with the help of the Holy Spirit. And furthermore, I
believe that God grants us wisdom to know when to reject the heretic if we
ask Him and trust in Him. And predicably, the heretic usually intensifies
their provocation tactics to try to tempt us back into confronting them
which we should not do after he or she has been warned properly in
accordance to the Bible.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "john w" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
29 Jun 2007 09:02:45 PM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:00:31 -0700, "Vernono O" <Here @there> wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote in message
news:f5pg18$2en$1@news.utelfla.com...
With so many cultists and heretics roaming Usenet attempting to pass
themeselves off as being Christian while spreading their false doctrines
like wolves in sheeps' clothing it is no wonder they scream and shout when
they are exposed by Christians for being false teachers. And there are
plenty of them: Steve Winter, "Bible Bob", "Rev. BR Collins", Donna Kupp,
etc. However there are Christians who feel we should merely pretend they
are not there and there are Christians who feel we should confront them
directly at every opportunity. Neither group is entirely right. Although
it is right that we, as Christians, are to oppose false teachings and use
the Holy Scriptures for teaching, rebuking, and correcting however I see
no scriptural basis for continously confronting the heretics directly over
and over again. Scripture is pretty clear that we are not to have anything
to do with heretics after they've been properly warned but scripture is
also clear that we are to hold to sound doctrine and share that sound
doctrine with others so that unsound doctrine (e.g. - heresies) will not
flourish for such heresies are from satan. We, as Christians, are to
identify the heretic in order to warn those Christians unfamiliar with the
false teacher as well as the new Christian. I believe Christians are to
firmly stand in opposition to unsound doctrine continually. I believe we
Christians are to correct unsound doctrine with scriptural doctrine
uncompromisingly. I believe we Christians are to identify heretics so
other Christians may not be deceived by them. However I also believe we
Christians should do all that without engaging in personal attacks,
slander, etc. There is a Biblical way of rebuking false teachings and
teachers. Let's always try to do so in that Biblical manner.
Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing...". How can we know false prophets unless we test what they are
teaching by the Word of God? (Acts 17:11) If what they teach isn't in
harmony with the Scriptures then we are to correct them. If they keep
refusing the correction, then after proper warning, we should have nothing
to do with them. All through the Bible we find proof that they should be
identified and exposed.
We also identify heretics by their fruit:
"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from
thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good
fruit , but a bad tree bears bad fruit . A good tree cannot bear bad
fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit . Every tree that does not
bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit
you will recognize them. (Matthew 7:16-20)
As we have all witnessed by such people as Steve Winter, "Bible Bob,"
"Rev. BR Collins," Donna Kupp and other false teachers, they regularly
exhibit bad fruit though personal attacks, dishonesty, etc. All that on
top of the false doctrines they espouse. Jesus clearly taught that
Christians are judge the tree (person) by the fruit of their life and
doctrine. We clearly are not able to see what is within their hearts, but
we can see what their words & deeds and doctrine produce (fruit) [Matthew
12:35]. And in the case of the 4 individuals mentioned, their consistent
words and actions indicate wicked hearts.
One clarification needs to be made here. I am not saying nor implying that
Christians are perfect, life perfect lives and teach perfectly. That is
simply not the case. Christians are flawed individuals as well. However
the main difference is that the false teacher refuses correction and
regularly engages in unChristian behaviors that mark themselves as being
false teachers. However to be absolutely certain, Jesus taught us that our
discernment should not be made on appearances but by the Word of God (John
7:24). In 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 the apostle Paul judged with righteous
judgment and made clearcut discernments based on the Word of God.
A person who is able to discern between good and evil, has at least one of
the major marks of spiritual maturity.
"But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained
themselves to distinguish good from evil." (Hebrews 5:14)
In 1 Corinthians 12:10 discernment between what is false and what is true
in regards to Spiritual matters is indicated to be one of the gifts given
through the Holy Spirit.
It was important then to be able to discern the truth teacher from the
false teacher and it is just as important today. Those who are unwilling
or unable of discerning between good & evil, true teachers & false
teachers, and sound & unsound doctrine are in this manner revealing either
their disobedience or their immaturity. When Christians are unwilling or
unable to discern then false teachers are free to spread their poisonous
doctrines to the masses because of silence among those Bible believers.
We Christians are to TEST them: "Dear friends, do not believe every
spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because
many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) All those
directly claiming to be teachers of God's Word or acting as teachers of
God's Word are to be tested by God's Word. If they are teaching not in
accordance with God's Word then it is because they have not the light of
God's Word within them. (Isaiah 8:20) When heretics are known we are to
IDENTIFY them and AVOID them. (Romans 16:17) We are to REBUKE them. (Titus
1:13) We are to REFUTE them while HOLING FIRMLY TO SOUND DOCTRINE. (Titus
1:9) We are to have NOTHING to do with them and we are also to EXPOSE
them. (Ephesians 5:11) We are to KEEP AWAY from them. (2 Thessalonians
3:6)
We Christians are to keep a wary eye out for all those preaching and
teaching false doctrine. We Christians are to oppose their teachings,
identify them as false teachers and reject them and their false teachings
after they have been duly warned. (Titus 3:10,11) Those who teach false
gospel accurse themselves by their heresies. (Galatians 1:6-9) We
Christians are to "contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted
to the saints." Why? "For certain men whose condemnation was written about
long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who
change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus
Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 3-4) In regards to heretics, we
Christians are required to identify them from their words & deeds and warn
others. Just as there were false prophets in Biblical times, there are
false prophets today. The words of warning that are contained in the Bible
still pertain to we Christians today. Heed those warnings, my brethren.
Know who the enemy is. Hold firmly to sound doctrine. And never let the
heretics' heresies go unchallenged. Present sound doctrine. Present it
firmly and confidently. And with God's blessings for it is indeed the
right thing to do.
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will
be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive
heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift
destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will
bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will
exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long
been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." (2
Peter 2:1-3)
Good post.
On Usenet the temperance is in cutting off communication after some modicum
of interaction where the non-Christian gets into semantics or repetition.
It is also important to point out, not only error, but false representation.
There are Atheists pretending to be Christians with a different view.
We are told very explicitly to make good use of our time. Repetition to the
same heretic is time consuming. Other that being certain that "others" are
not lead astray we must remember John12:40. This includes those who have
created for themselves a very strong belief.
BUT
Even though we have been instructed very clearly to do the things you
mention, their salvation, if it is to occur is by the hand of God, not ours.
^ ^ Well put! I've heard my whole life from the scholars
(if that phrase rubs you wrong, perhaps you should give a thought to
why you so bridle at the thought of AUTHORITY)
the scholar with whom I have studied my whole life have said, "it
is up to us to PRESENT, to INFORM, to ENLIGHTEN, to ANSWER QUESTIONS,
to PRESENT THE GOSPEL in a manner a 5-year old child can understand.
It is up to GOD to convince, to convict, and to convert.
If you beat a man/woman half to death with your 95 pound Scofield
Reference Bible, and the person expires an unconvinced sinner, what
have you achieved?
Do all you can do to inform and enlighten, to answer questions and
to be a RESOURCE, but we must leave the Converting to the Holy Spirit.
God bless!
john w
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
30 Jun 2007 10:38:59 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:02:45 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
^ ^ Well put! I've heard my whole life from the scholars
Oh, DREAM ON, wannabe...
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Midwinter" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
26 Jun 2007 06:55:19 AM |
|
|
"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:
We, as Christians, are to identify the heretic in
order to warn those Christians unfamiliar with the false teacher as
well as the new Christian.
This cannot help the new Christian. S/he will see only various groups all
calling themselves proper Christians and each one slagging off the others.
The new Christian cannot hope to get the right answers about religion by
looking to self-serving humans for advice. They will have to look to their
God.
--
Midwinter
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
28 Jun 2007 09:10:03 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 06:55:19 -0500, Midwinter
<midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:
We, as Christians, are to identify the heretic in
order to warn those Christians unfamiliar with the false teacher as
well as the new Christian.
This cannot help the new Christian. S/he will see only various groups all
calling themselves proper Christians and each one slagging off the others.
The new Christian cannot hope to get the right answers about religion by
looking to self-serving humans for advice. They will have to look to their
God.
And God has chosen mature Christians (His people) to lead the new
Christians via SCRIPTURE.
New Christians are NOT expected to blindly out-guess God.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
.
|
|
|
| User: "Midwinter" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
28 Jun 2007 12:53:56 PM |
|
|
wrote:
And God has chosen mature Christians (His people) to lead the new
Christians via SCRIPTURE.
New Christians are NOT expected to blindly out-guess God.
I never suggested they should. I suggested they should look to Him for
their answers. There's no reason they should be reliant on the likes of
you.
--
Midwinter
.
|
|
|
| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
29 Jun 2007 05:48:01 AM |
|
|
Midwinter wrote:
checker@flapper.com wrote:
And God has chosen mature Christians (His people) to lead the new
Christians via SCRIPTURE.
New Christians are NOT expected to blindly out-guess God.
I never suggested they should. I suggested they should look to Him for
their answers. There's no reason they should be reliant on the likes of
you.
Boy.....do you have a long wait !
--
Midwinter
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
28 Jun 2007 01:03:45 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:53:56 -0500, Midwinter
<midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
checker@flapper.com wrote:
And God has chosen mature Christians (His people) to lead the new
Christians via SCRIPTURE.
New Christians are NOT expected to blindly out-guess God.
I never suggested they should. I suggested they should look to Him for
their answers. There's no reason they should be reliant on the likes of
you.
So instead, they should look to the likes of YOU? LOL!
So the new believer is to search out the answers from God. . .how
according to you? With NOBODY to help him/her find them in the Bible?
God has chosen the older (presumably more spiritually mature) men to
teach the younger men, the older women to teach the younger women.
What do YOU propose that is "better?"
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
.
|
|
|
| User: "Midwinter" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
28 Jun 2007 04:10:45 PM |
|
|
wrote:
So instead, they should look to the likes of YOU? LOL!
Funny: I don't recall saying that, either. Why pretend to argue with me if
you're only interested in the script inside your head?
--
Midwinter
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
28 Jun 2007 05:26:59 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:10:45 -0500, Midwinter
<midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
checker@flapper.com wrote:
So instead, they should look to the likes of YOU? LOL!
Funny: I don't recall saying that, either. Why pretend to argue with me if
you're only interested in the script inside your head?
The post as I wrote it, cut and pasted below:
***************** begin cut and paste ****************
New Christians are NOT expected to blindly out-guess God.
I never suggested they should. I suggested they should look to Him for
their answers. There's no reason they should be reliant on the likes of
you.
So instead, they should look to the likes of YOU? LOL!
So the new believer is to search out the answers from God. . .how
according to you? With NOBODY to help him/her find them in the Bible?
God has chosen the older (presumably more spiritually mature) men to
teach the younger men, the older women to teach the younger women.
What do YOU propose that is "better?"
**********************End cut and paste **************
Hmm. As I said, the new believer is to search out the answers from
God by learning from the older, more mature Christians.
According to the Bible.
Not according to the script in YOUR head.
You didn't propose anything better, btw.
You just whined.
Checker
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Merlin" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
28 Jun 2007 03:19:53 PM |
|
|
dear chec...
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:53:56 -0500, Midwinter
<midwinte...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
chec...@flapper.com wrote:
And God has chosen mature Christians (His people) to lead the new
Christians via SCRIPTURE.
you leave jesus out?
New Christians are NOT expected to blindly out-guess God.
no one need to out guess god, one might love as jesus does, to get
aquainted with god.
I never suggested they should. I suggested they should look to Him for
their answers. There's no reason they should be reliant on the likes of
you.
So instead, they should look to the likes of YOU? LOL!
he is saying look to jesus for answers.
and why don't you talk to jesus before you answer some of the
questions?
it would clear up some of your confusion. cause jesus will come to
anyone that asks.
he is a constant companion when we need him.
will whisper in our ear, send someone to tell the deaf
and help us love the world into submission.
what was jesus draw back then?
So the new believer
you got a term for everybody, lol
is to search out the answers from God.
yes god is alive today and willing to work with anyone that will ask
in love and live in love.
. .how
this is what christian does not teach.
how to get aquainted with god. it is essential and yet christians
don't believe god can be reached today only 2k years ago.
according to you?
that is all there is, is each others experiences with god to find the
whole experience of god we need to hear each other's story and fill it
in with ours.
With NOBODY to help him/her find them in the Bible?
god existed for a trillion years before the bible.
adam and eve knew god personally.
why can't you?
God has chosen the older (presumably more spiritually mature) men
your assumption is the problem.
it isn't about worshiping people, it is about loving people.
to
teach the younger men, the older women to teach the younger women.
and none of them have taught you about a direct abiding relationship
with god as jesus promised us while in human from?
What do YOU propose that is "better?"
love like there is no tomorrow, find that love jesus found, and god
will not be able to resist you.
that is why you see evil people in power, they learned to tap into
this god energy and used and are better at using it than most of us.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
in love with the living gay jesus,
merlin
dang you guys like to cross post.
You can only send to a maximum of 5 groups
alt.bible, alt.christnet.bible, alt.christnet.evangelical,
alt.christnet.theology, alt.christnet, alt.religion.christian,
alt.religion.christian.baptist, alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,
alt.religion.christian.methodist, free.christians, alt.christnet,
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Bible Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
28 Jun 2007 03:27:14 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:10:03 -0600, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 06:55:19 -0500, Midwinter
<midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:
We, as Christians, are to identify the heretic in
order to warn those Christians unfamiliar with the false teacher as
well as the new Christian.
This cannot help the new Christian. S/he will see only various groups all
calling themselves proper Christians and each one slagging off the others.
The new Christian cannot hope to get the right answers about religion by
looking to self-serving humans for advice. They will have to look to their
God.
And God has chosen mature Christians (His people) to lead the new
Christians via SCRIPTURE.
New Christians are NOT expected to blindly out-guess God.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
Checker,
Your definition of Christians as His people is flawed. Look up the
phrase "his people" and you will see that it applies to "Israel;" not
the body of Christ whose members are "His children". Might I suggest
that you consider using God's definitions for things which are
available in the word of God. Christians are defined in Acts 11:26 as
disciples; not babes in Christ, or the unlearned, or his people.
Act 11:26 KJV
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to
pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and
taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in
Antioch.
Assuming what you say is true; that God chose mature "Christians"
(disciples) to lead babes in Christ via the Scripture. How does a
babe in Christ know that the leader is not a wolf or an unlearned
person presenting himself as something he is not? What did God
through Jesus Christ do to protect babes in Christ from those who are
not leaders chosen by God? That is an intellectually fair question
that deserves an honest answer.
Technically there is no such thing as a new Christian because a
Christian is a disciplined follower of the Lord Jesus Christ and to
become that takes time, training, and practice. There are those who
say they are Christians who do expect the unitiated to blindly
out-guess God. These are they who say "doctine such and such is true
and you must accept it by faith because I say so." These are they
that say "I say it so you accept it or you are a heretick."
Here is one way you can spot those who are pretenders. They pretend
to quote Scripture; but quote it incorrectly. Here are a couple of
examples.
Preacher:
Brothers and sisters we got to pray the Holy Ghost into this here
meeting.
Attendee:
Where does it say that in the Bible?
Preacher:
Jude 20.
Attendee:
According to the Greek, no article precedes "pneuma" and "pneuma" is
preceded by the preposition "en". That means praying in spirit; not
praying God into the meeting. How can one pray God into where He is
already at? Isn't it kind of egotistical for a man to think that he
can move God from point a to point b by prayer?
Jud 1:20 KJV
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith,
praying in the Holy Ghost,
Preacher:
You are a heretick.
Original Poster:
John 1:1,14 says that Jesus Christ is God.
Responding poster:
This is what those two verses say. Where do you see Jesus Christ is
God in either of those verses?
Joh 1:1 KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.
Joh 1:14 KJV
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his
glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace
and truth.
Original Poster:
Heretick
Responding Poster:
Why do you call me heretick and what is your authority for doing so?
Original Poster:
Everybody knows that the verses say that Jesus Christ is God. You are
a cultist and you are a heretick. I am right. Everyone knows I am
right and that you are wrong.
BB
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
28 Jun 2007 04:40:10 PM |
|
|
dear bb
Your definition of Christians as His people is flawed.
this is what he is being taught.
this is the great divid in christianity, nobody has a personal
relationship with god.
everyone is relying on others to tell them
no one is showing the way.
and that was is love,
merlin
You can only send to a maximum of 5 groups.
alt.bible, alt.christnet.bible, alt.christnet.evangelical,
alt.christnet.theology,
alt.christnet,
alt.religion.christian, alt.religion.christian.baptist,
alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,
alt.christnet,
alt.religion.christian.methodist, free.christians
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Sam Taylor" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
28 Jun 2007 05:51:27 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:10:03 -0600, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 06:55:19 -0500, Midwinter
<midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:
We, as Christians, are to identify the heretic in
order to warn those Christians unfamiliar with the false teacher as
well as the new Christian.
This cannot help the new Christian. S/he will see only various groups all
calling themselves proper Christians and each one slagging off the others.
The new Christian cannot hope to get the right answers about religion by
looking to self-serving humans for advice. They will have to look to their
God.
And God has chosen mature Christians (His people) to lead the new
Christians via SCRIPTURE.
WRONG!!! the Orocles of G-D are commited unto the Circumsicion.
that meanns Jewish believers are to define doctorines.
New Christians are NOT expected to blindly out-guess God.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
29 Jun 2007 08:48:19 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:51:27 -0700, Sam Taylor <cygnet@cncnet.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:10:03 -0600, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 06:55:19 -0500, Midwinter
<midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:
We, as Christians, are to identify the heretic in
order to warn those Christians unfamiliar with the false teacher as
well as the new Christian.
This cannot help the new Christian. S/he will see only various groups all
calling themselves proper Christians and each one slagging off the others.
The new Christian cannot hope to get the right answers about religion by
looking to self-serving humans for advice. They will have to look to their
God.
And God has chosen mature Christians (His people) to lead the new
Christians via SCRIPTURE.
WRONG!!! the Orocles of G-D are commited unto the Circumsicion.
that meanns Jewish believers are to define doctorines.
Not according to Scripture. Too bad you can't spell any better than
you can 'splain Biblical doctrine.
Checker
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Carl" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
29 Jun 2007 08:07:34 AM |
|
|
"Merlin" <merlinator@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183045509.475620.185810@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
dear chec...
Christianity has NEVER been a democracy;
we know, christainity has benefited from teh preveledges of growing in
a democracy, and now that chrsitians are abandoning democracy again in
an attempt to take over america, it will not bode well for all our
rights including religious rights in the long run.
You claim that chrsitians "are abandoning democracy again" is bogus on two
fronts: first, Christians are not abandoning democracy and secondly they
never did it a first time in the United States.
it is a Theocracy.
every church merlin has ever been invovled in voted on every issue,
Read Checker's words a little more carefully...he said "it [Christianity] is
a Theocracy." What happens within individual Christian churches may or may
not utilize part or all of a democratic system to make internal decisions
but when it comes down to Christian doctrine and Biblical matters, it is
indeed a Theocracy meaning that God is in charge. If the churches you claim
to have attended believe that casting votes changes God's mind or God
Himself then the churches you attended weren't Christian in the first place.
Bush doesn't corrupt any court system at all.
he sure did. he forced honest people out to put people that would
accuse democrats of wrong doing. he also created loyality oathes and
insisted on party affiliation for job hirings.
Your knowledge of political matters is factually incorrect. If you are
referring to the firings of 8 federal prosecutors, then let me point out
three facts: first, the prosecutors serve at the pleasure of the President,
secondly the President may order their dismissal for whatever reason he
decides upon, and thirdly please keep in mind that Bush fired 8 while his
predecessor, Bill Clinton fired them all. Also, every President in recent
memory has pretty much insisted on party affiliation for federal job hirings
so that isn't corruption either.
The court
system is set up by our Constitution and Bush hasn't changed that at
all.
it is corrupted when you hvae to promise to go after the democrats to
get a job in a republican hiring sceem.
Your conspiracy theory there is weak and nonexistant.
But, politics is off-topic and I will end it here.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bible Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
29 Jun 2007 08:42:16 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:07:34 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
"Merlin" <merlinator@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183045509.475620.185810@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
dear chec...
Christianity has NEVER been a democracy;
we know, christainity has benefited from teh preveledges of growing in
a democracy, and now that chrsitians are abandoning democracy again in
an attempt to take over america, it will not bode well for all our
rights including religious rights in the long run.
You claim that chrsitians "are abandoning democracy again" is bogus on two
fronts: first, Christians are not abandoning democracy and secondly they
never did it a first time in the United States.
Thirdly, the United States is not a democracy. It is a Representative
Republic. It was followers of the Lord Jesus Christ in league with
people of various religions that helped the country develop into a
great nation. Then the anitheists began their influences of
lawlessness and the nation has been going down hill ever since.
This country hasn't been the same since the Brit's sent their roaches
and rocks over here in the sixties..
it is a Theocracy.
every church merlin has ever been invovled in voted on every issue,
Read Checker's words a little more carefully...he said "it [Christianity] is
a Theocracy." What happens within individual Christian churches may or may
not utilize part or all of a democratic system to make internal decisions
but when it comes down to Christian doctrine and Biblical matters, it is
indeed a Theocracy meaning that God is in charge. If the churches you claim
to have attended believe that casting votes changes God's mind or God
Himself then the churches you attended weren't Christian in the first place.
I would counter that Jesus Christ is in charge because He is the head
of of his church. So, the church is really not a Theocracy. It is a
Manocracy where JC is the big good dude in charge and we the parts of
His own body that He uses in the present world to accomplish His
Father's will.
Bush doesn't corrupt any court system at all.
he sure did. he forced honest people out to put people that would
accuse democrats of wrong doing. he also created loyality oathes and
insisted on party affiliation for job hirings.
Your knowledge of political matters is factually incorrect. If you are
referring to the firings of 8 federal prosecutors, then let me point out
three facts: first, the prosecutors serve at the pleasure of the President,
secondly the President may order their dismissal for whatever reason he
decides upon, and thirdly please keep in mind that Bush fired 8 while his
predecessor, Bill Clinton fired them all. Also, every President in recent
memory has pretty much insisted on party affiliation for federal job hirings
so that isn't corruption either.
The court
system is set up by our Constitution and Bush hasn't changed that at
all.
it is corrupted when you hvae to promise to go after the democrats to
get a job in a republican hiring sceem.
Your conspiracy theory there is weak and nonexistant.
But, politics is off-topic and I will end it here.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Merlin" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
02 Jul 2007 11:48:35 AM |
|
|
On Jun 29, 9:42 pm, Bible Bob <bible...@saintly.com> wrote:
Thirdly, the United States is not a democracy.
so christiains don't have to be democratic? what kinda logic is this?
who are you courting to become members of your church? ex kgb members
or fellow americans?
It is a Representative
Republic.
so don't allow it in your church.
It was followers of the Lord Jesus Christ in league with
people of various religions
what does this mean? who follows jesus on christnet, and name a group
of christians that follows jesus teachings.......... you keep
mention people, yet none of them seem to follow all ten commandments.
that helped the country develop into a
great nation.
was it not the christain's slaves that did most of the work? merlin
just recently learned that the baptists were made on slavery. so we
see segregation and slavery as being christian's concept of
democracy..... where does any representive government exist in
christianity??
Then the anitheists
yeah blame segregation on someone else LOL.
began their influences of
lawlessness and the nation has been going down hill ever since.
you can't blame slavery on the athiests, does everyone you don't like
cause all your problems?
I would counter that Jesus Christ is in charge because He is the head
of of his church.
so jesus is pro slavery and segregation? jesus never spoke against
either.
So, the church is really not a Theocracy.
good for you...... now who is your target audience? when you refuse
to show any democractic principles in your religion. and you worship
a lord god carpenter?
jesus isn't a segregationist, jesus never owned slaves. until american
christians repent from both we will watch the fall of christainity
before our very eyes.
in love with the living gay jesus,
merlin
alt.bible, alt.christnet.bible, alt.christnet.christianlife,
alt.christnet.evangelical, alt.christnet,
alt.religion.christian, alt.religion.christian.baptist,
alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.christnet,
alt.religion.christian.methodist, free.christians, alt.christnet,
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
29 Jun 2007 05:47:01 AM |
|
|
Carl wrote:
With so many cultists and heretics roaming Usenet attempting to pass
themeselves off as being Christian while spreading their false doctrines
like wolves in sheeps' clothing it is no wonder they scream and shout when
they are exposed by Christians for being false teachers.
Well I suppose you could reintroduce The Inquisition and do a few burnings,
[in public of course, after all, let's do it properly]
Mind you, not sure you could keep up the 'good work' long enough
The Inquisition lasted for nearly three hundred years.............!
What's it like living in The Dark Ages Carl?
Bob
Humanist Brit.
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander
each other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any
sort of agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head
of its own with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it
wins over to its side."
[R.J.Hoffmann]
And there are
plenty of them: Steve Winter, "Bible Bob", "Rev. BR Collins", Donna Kupp,
etc. However there are Christians who feel we should merely pretend they are
not there and there are Christians who feel we should confront them directly
at every opportunity. Neither group is entirely right. Although it is right
that we, as Christians, are to oppose false teachings and use the Holy
Scriptures for teaching, rebuking, and correcting however I see no
scriptural basis for continously confronting the heretics directly over and
over again. Scripture is pretty clear that we are not to have anything to do
with heretics after they've been properly warned but scripture is also clear
that we are to hold to sound doctrine and share that sound doctrine with
others so that unsound doctrine (e.g. - heresies) will not flourish for such
heresies are from satan. We, as Christians, are to identify the heretic in
order to warn those Christians unfamiliar with the false teacher as well as
the new Christian. I believe Christians are to firmly stand in opposition to
unsound doctrine continually. I believe we Christians are to correct unsound
doctrine with scriptural doctrine uncompromisingly. I believe we Christians
are to identify heretics so other Christians may not be deceived by them.
However I also believe we Christians should do all that without engaging in
personal attacks, slander, etc. There is a Biblical way of rebuking false
teachings and teachers. Let's always try to do so in that Biblical manner.
Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing...". How can we know false prophets unless we test what they are
teaching by the Word of God? (Acts 17:11) If what they teach isn't in
harmony with the Scriptures then we are to correct them. If they keep
refusing the correction, then after proper warning, we should have nothing
to do with them. All through the Bible we find proof that they should be
identified and exposed.
We also identify heretics by their fruit:
"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from
thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good
fruit , but a bad tree bears bad fruit . A good tree cannot bear bad fruit,
and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit . Every tree that does not bear good
fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will
recognize them. (Matthew 7:16-20)
As we have all witnessed by such people as Steve Winter, "Bible Bob," "Rev.
BR Collins," Donna Kupp and other false teachers, they regularly exhibit bad
fruit though personal attacks, dishonesty, etc. All that on top of the false
doctrines they espouse. Jesus clearly taught that Christians are judge the
tree (person) by the fruit of their life and doctrine. We clearly are not
able to see what is within their hearts, but we can see what their words &
deeds and doctrine produce (fruit) [Matthew 12:35]. And in the case of the 4
individuals mentioned, their consistent words and actions indicate wicked
hearts.
One clarification needs to be made here. I am not saying nor implying that
Christians are perfect, life perfect lives and teach perfectly. That is
simply not the case. Christians are flawed individuals as well. However the
main difference is that the false teacher refuses correction and regularly
engages in unChristian behaviors that mark themselves as being false
teachers. However to be absolutely certain, Jesus taught us that our
discernment should not be made on appearances but by the Word of God (John
7:24). In 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 the apostle Paul judged with righteous
judgment and made clearcut discernments based on the Word of God.
A person who is able to discern between good and evil, has at least one of
the major marks of spiritual maturity.
"But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained
themselves to distinguish good from evil." (Hebrews 5:14)
In 1 Corinthians 12:10 discernment between what is false and what is true in
regards to Spiritual matters is indicated to be one of the gifts given
through the Holy Spirit.
It was important then to be able to discern the truth teacher from the false
teacher and it is just as important today. Those who are unwilling or unable
of discerning between good & evil, true teachers & false teachers, and
sound & unsound doctrine are in this manner revealing either their
disobedience or their immaturity. When Christians are unwilling or unable to
discern then false teachers are free to spread their poisonous doctrines to
the masses because of silence among those Bible believers.
We Christians are to TEST them: "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit,
but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false
prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) All those directly
claiming to be teachers of God's Word or acting as teachers of God's Word
are to be tested by God's Word. If they are teaching not in accordance with
God's Word then it is because they have not the light of God's Word within
them. (Isaiah 8:20) When heretics are known we are to IDENTIFY them and
AVOID them. (Romans 16:17) We are to REBUKE them. (Titus 1:13) We are to
REFUTE them while HOLING FIRMLY TO SOUND DOCTRINE. (Titus 1:9) We are to
have NOTHING to do with them and we are also to EXPOSE them. (Ephesians
5:11) We are to KEEP AWAY from them. (2 Thessalonians 3:6)
We Christians are to keep a wary eye out for all those preaching and
teaching false doctrine. We Christians are to oppose their teachings,
identify them as false teachers and reject them and their false teachings
after they have been duly warned. (Titus 3:10,11) Those who teach false
gospel accurse themselves by their heresies. (Galatians 1:6-9) We Christians
are to "contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the
saints." Why? "For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago
have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the
grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our
only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 3-4) In regards to heretics, we Christians
are required to identify them from their words & deeds and warn others. Just
as there were false prophets in Biblical times, there are false prophets
today. The words of warning that are contained in the Bible still pertain to
we Christians today. Heed those warnings, my brethren. Know who the enemy
is. Hold firmly to sound doctrine. And never let the heretics' heresies go
unchallenged. Present sound doctrine. Present it firmly and confidently. And
with God's blessings for it is indeed the right thing to do.
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be
false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies,
even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction
on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way
of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with
stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over
them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." (2 Peter 2:1-3)
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics - ALL ARE HERETICS |
25 Jun 2007 09:09:43 PM |
|
|
Carl wrote:
With so many cultists and heretics roaming Usenet attempting to pass
themeselves off as being Christian while spreading their false doctrines
like wolves in sheeps' clothing it is no wonder they scream and shout when
they are exposed by Christians for being false teachers.
===>There is no such thing as "false teachers" as demonstrated by the
thousands of sects and denominations, each believiong that the others
are "false".
In fact they are ALL FALSE!
They all exist according to the
LAW OF SECTS.
FOR EVERY SECTARIAN DOCTRINE
THERE IS AN EQUAL AND OPPOSITE SECTARIAN DOCTRINE,
EACH CLAIMING TO BE BASED ON THE BIBLE AND
THE HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT.
In fact they are ALL based on fantasies and falsehoods.
They are ALL "heretics", choosing a niche, an angle, a twist, a spin,
often honestly and sincerely trying to make sense out of the nonsense,
the enourmously varied and diverse ideas, opinions, speculations and
fantasies they find in the material that was selected, edited and
compiled by priests of the Holy State Church into their "Bible" some
seventeen centuries ago, because they are told it is the
"Word of God" that they must believe. -- L.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
25 Jun 2007 11:50:12 PM |
|
|
On Jun 26, 2:36 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:
With so many cultists and heretics roaming Usenet attempting to pass
themeselves off as being Christian while spreading their false doctrines
like wolves in sheeps' clothing it is no wonder they scream and shout when
they are exposed by Christians for being false teachers.
JERRY
Speaking of false teachers, Carl, where in the bible does it say you
must believe in the Trinity to be saved? I'm sure that Jesus never
mentions that when he says that HE is the way, the truth and the light
and no one comes to the father but through him.
According to what the cultists who believe in the Trinity say, you
can't be saved unless you believe in their interpretation, but I can't
find Jesus agreeing with you anywhere.
Perhaps you can show me the verse(s) where Jesus agrees with your
interpretation?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
26 Jun 2007 09:03:52 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:50:12 -0700, rogue
<rogue719@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
On Jun 26, 2:36 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:
With so many cultists and heretics roaming Usenet attempting to pass
themeselves off as being Christian while spreading their false doctrines
like wolves in sheeps' clothing it is no wonder they scream and shout when
they are exposed by Christians for being false teachers.
JERRY
Speaking of false teachers, Carl, where in the bible does it say you
must believe in the Trinity to be saved? I'm sure that Jesus never
mentions that when he says that HE is the way, the truth and the light
and no one comes to the father but through him.
According to what the cultists who believe in the Trinity say, you
can't be saved unless you believe in their interpretation, but I can't
find Jesus agreeing with you anywhere.
Perhaps you can show me the verse(s) where Jesus agrees with your
interpretation?
I would ask one question, without even taking a side,
so you can think of Him any way you want to, while
answering the question and it isn't even necessary
to say what your belief is. But it will let each person
examine whether or not they think resolving this
issue is important to salvation.
The question is...
"Is it possible to be saved, while not believing
in Jesus as who He really is?"
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
|
|
|
| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
27 Jun 2007 02:05:58 AM |
|
|
On Jun 26, 6:03 pm, Pastor Dave <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:50:12 -0700, rogue
<rogue...@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
On Jun 26, 2:36 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:
With so many cultists and heretics roaming Usenet attempting to pass
themeselves off as being Christian while spreading their false doctrines
like wolves in sheeps' clothing it is no wonder they scream and shout when
they are exposed by Christians for being false teachers.
JERRY
Speaking of false teachers, Carl, where in the bible does it say you
must believe in the Trinity to be saved? I'm sure that Jesus never
mentions that when he says that HE is the way, the truth and the light
and no one comes to the father but through him.
According to what the cultists who believe in the Trinity say, you
can't be saved unless you believe in their interpretation, but I can't
find Jesus agreeing with you anywhere.
Perhaps you can show me the verse(s) where Jesus agrees with your
interpretation?
I would ask one question, without even taking a side,
so you can think of Him any way you want to, while
answering the question and it isn't even necessary
to say what your belief is. But it will let each person
examine whether or not they think resolving this
issue is important to salvation.
The question is...
"Is it possible to be saved, while not believing
in Jesus as who He really is?"
JERRY
And now you incorporate the assumption as fact and assume that people
have to agree with you before they can know Jesus.
If the text says no one comes to the Father but through HIM
(singular), and doesn't say that no one comes to the Father but
through US (plural) it would appear that Jesus spoke more clearly on
it than those who came after.
So, your question makes me ask you in return, without taking sides,
"If you assume Jesus to be something he's not, are you really saved?"
Of course, by asking that question I just keep the silly argument
going.
Regardless of whether such a Trinity exists or not, according to
individual interpretations of the text, Jesus NEVER says that you must
believe in the Trinity to be saved. Nor, from my reading, does Paul.
Therefore, it's a non-argument created by people who want to use their
belief system as a club against those people who disagree with them on
interpretation.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
27 Jun 2007 10:09:51 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:05:58 -0700, rogue
<rogue719@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
On Jun 26, 6:03 pm, Pastor Dave <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:50:12 -0700, rogue
<rogue...@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
On Jun 26, 2:36 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:
With so many cultists and heretics roaming Usenet attempting to pass
themeselves off as being Christian while spreading their false doctrines
like wolves in sheeps' clothing it is no wonder they scream and shout when
they are exposed by Christians for being false teachers.
JERRY
Speaking of false teachers, Carl, where in the bible does it say you
must believe in the Trinity to be saved? I'm sure that Jesus never
mentions that when he says that HE is the way, the truth and the light
and no one comes to the father but through him.
According to what the cultists who believe in the Trinity say, you
can't be saved unless you believe in their interpretation, but I can't
find Jesus agreeing with you anywhere.
Perhaps you can show me the verse(s) where Jesus agrees with your
interpretation?
I would ask one question, without even taking a side,
so you can think of Him any way you want to, while
answering the question and it isn't even necessary
to say what your belief is. But it will let each person
examine whether or not they think resolving this
issue is important to salvation.
The question is...
"Is it possible to be saved, while not believing
in Jesus as who He really is?"
JERRY
And now you incorporate the assumption as fact and assume that people
have to agree with you before they can know Jesus.
You are being obtuse. I specifically said that
one does not have to be on a particular side
of the issue, to ask that question.
As has everyone else, you have failed to answer
this simple question, because you know that it
means that a decision has to be made one way
or the other and that it excludes one side or
the other. As for which side, I did not say
which side is right/wrong. But you knew that.
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
|
|
|
| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
27 Jun 2007 11:35:13 PM |
|
|
On Jun 27, 7:09 pm, Pastor Dave <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:05:58 -0700, rogue
<rogue...@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
On Jun 26, 6:03 pm, Pastor Dave <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:50:12 -0700, rogue
<rogue...@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
On Jun 26, 2:36 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:
With so many cultists and heretics roaming Usenet attempting to pass
themeselves off as being Christian while spreading their false doctrines
like wolves in sheeps' clothing it is no wonder they scream and shout when
they are exposed by Christians for being false teachers.
JERRY
Speaking of false teachers, Carl, where in the bible does it say you
must believe in the Trinity to be saved? I'm sure that Jesus never
mentions that when he says that HE is the way, the truth and the light
and no one comes to the father but through him.
According to what the cultists who believe in the Trinity say, you
can't be saved unless you believe in their interpretation, but I can't
find Jesus agreeing with you anywhere.
Perhaps you can show me the verse(s) where Jesus agrees with your
interpretation?
I would ask one question, without even taking a side,
so you can think of Him any way you want to, while
answering the question and it isn't even necessary
to say what your belief is. But it will let each person
examine whether or not they think resolving this
issue is important to salvation.
The question is...
"Is it possible to be saved, while not believing
in Jesus as who He really is?"
JERRY
And now you incorporate the assumption as fact and assume that people
have to agree with you before they can know Jesus.
Dave Raymond
You are being obtuse. I specifically said that
one does not have to be on a particular side
of the issue, to ask that question.
JERRY
Dave, I'm not being obtuse (deliberately obsfucating the point).
That's simply you not understanding what I am saying and the point I
am making. Let me explain it to you again.
You ask if it's possible to be saved if you don't "believe in Jesus as
he really is." That statement assumes that the claims made by
Trinitarians (which is the point) are true and not just an individual
interpretation of the text that is no more or less valid than anyone
else's. If it's impossible to be saved without "believing in Jesus as
he really is" then no one is saved. None, because faith is intensely
personal. Your perception and belief in Jesus is NOT identical to
anyone else's. Your belief is filtered through your interpretation of
the text, which is filtered through your understanding of life,
language, culture and what is going on in your life right now.
Your interpretation of some parts of the text will be different today
than it was 20 years ago and will be changed again in another 20
years. Given the fluid nature of belief (ideology is rigid but belief
changes).
Therefore, if you can't be saved without "believing in Jesus as he
really is," then no one is saved.
DAVE
As has everyone else, you have failed to answer
this simple question, because you know that it
means that a decision has to be made one way
or the other and that it excludes one side or
the other. As for which side, I did not say
which side is right/wrong. But you knew that.
JERRY
Dave, you really should give up. Everytime you take me on, you show
that you don't understand the points being made and can't keep up your
end of an intellectual discussion. I've shown before that your claims
of a "bait and switch" stems from your inability to understand the
arguments brought against you. You and BB both have that same
problem.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
28 Jun 2007 08:43:18 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:35:13 -0700, rogue
<rogue719@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
Dave Raymond
You are being obtuse. I specifically said that
one does not have to be on a particular side
of the issue, to ask that question.
JERRY
Dave, I'm not being obtuse (deliberately
obsfucating the point). That's simply
you not understanding what I am saying
and the point I am making. Let me explain
it to you again.
You ask if it's possible to be saved if you
don't "believe in Jesus as he really is."
That statement assumes that the claims
made by Trinitarians (which is the point)
are true
Okay, maybe you're not being obtuse, but
you are the one who is not understanding
what is being said.
The question does NOT assume that the Trinity
is true. EITHER scenario could be true with
that question.
If the Trinity is true, can someone be saved
and not believe that Jesus was God incarnate?
If the Trinity is not true, can someone be saved
while calling Jesus God, when He's not?
Now, let me quote what I said in my first response
and you can hopefully now see that the question
does not assume a side and that I said it didn't...
*******************************************
I would ask one question, without even taking a side,
so you can think of Him any way you want to, while
answering the question and it isn't even necessary
to say what your belief is. But it will let each person
examine whether or not they think resolving this
issue is important to salvation.
The question is...
"Is it possible to be saved, while not believing
in Jesus as who He really is?"
*******************************************
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
|
|
|
| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: What Christians Should Do Concerning Heretics |
28 Jun 2007 10:15:18 PM |
|
|
Pastor Dave wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 21:35:13 -0700, rogue
<rogue719@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
Dave Raymond
You are being obtuse. I specifically said that
one does not have to be on a particular side
of the issue, to ask that question.
JERRY
Dave, I'm not being obtuse (deliberately
obsfucating the point). That's simply
you not understanding what I am saying
and the point I am making. Let me explain
it to you again.
You ask if it's possible to be saved if you
don't "believe in Jesus as he really is."
That statement assumes that the claims
made by Trinitarians (which is the point)
are true
Okay, maybe you're not being obtuse, but
you are the one who is not understanding
what is being said.
The question does NOT assume that the Trinity
is true. EITHER scenario could be true with
that question.
If the Trinity is true, can someone be saved
and not believe that Jesus was God incarnate?
If the Trinity is not true, can someone be saved
while calling Jesus God, when He's not?
Now, let me quote what I said in my first response
and you can hopefully now see that the question
does not assume a side and that I said it didn't...
*******************************************
I would ask one question, without even taking a side,
so you can think of Him any way you want to, while
answering the question and it isn't even nec | | | | | | | |
