Religions > Bible > What was God doing before he created the universe?
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"josh" |
| Date: |
11 Dec 2006 04:55:32 PM |
| Object: |
What was God doing before he created the universe? |
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used them?
Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example, did he
sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of vacuum
somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking mechanism and
memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that mean? If
it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there was a
time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived there.
So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but there can be no
word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have come
into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the universe.
Please argue.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
12 Dec 2006 07:55:18 AM |
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Moses told us not to investigate what God in his wisdom did not
reveal. Since God did not reveal how he spent his time before
creation, the rest will be just speculation. We don't want to
speculate
as Darwinian do about the big bang and all other lies that they make
up.
josh wrote:
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used them?
Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example, did he
sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of vacuum
somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking mechanism and
memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that mean? If
it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there was a
time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived there.
So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but there can be no
word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have come
into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the universe.
Please argue.
.
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| User: "Jim07D6" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
11 Dec 2006 05:38:22 PM |
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"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> said:
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used them?
Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example, did he
sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of vacuum
somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking mechanism and
memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that mean? If
it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there was a
time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived there.
So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but there can be no
word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have come
into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the universe.
Please argue.
Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm
-- Jim07D6
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
11 Dec 2006 05:21:07 PM |
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"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk:
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit
God with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but
are not so hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the
abilities attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which
he could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers
of thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he
used them? Just daydreaming?
Perhaps He contemplated His navel a lot. Oh wait . . . that doesn't
work, does it?
--
Enkidu AA#2165
http://www.thoughts.leaddogs.org/
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
"To illustrate the vain conceit that the universe must be somehow pre-
ordained for us, because we are so well-suited to live in it, he [Adams]
mimed a wonderfully funny imitation of a puddle of water, fitting itself
snugly into a depression in the ground, the depression uncannily being
exactly the same shape as the puddle."
-Richard Dawkins, in "Lament for Douglas" (14 May 2001)
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
11 Dec 2006 10:40:13 PM |
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"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
<snip>
He was just hanging out in his room playing
video games with Superman.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
11 Dec 2006 09:34:34 PM |
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"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
That's because they can't.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which he
could exist, and that was the universe.
Ho hum. Where'd he come from? Momma and Poppa 'God'? Did he 'create'
himself? When, and how did he do it? Where did he get the 'material' with
which to 'create' the universe from? Where did he get his 'supernatural
intellect, his imagination, his 'personality', his 'consciousness' from? I
could go on.
If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used
them?
You use the word 'if' as if Mr. 'I Am Sooo Imaginary That It Makes
'Make-Believe' Pale In Comparison' were a 'real' entity. You're embracing
nothing but thin-air here.
Just daydreaming?
Just as much as he was *before* his imaginary self was imagined, I'd guess.
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power.
No it isn't. Just envision a 'God' with 'endless power' in your mind, and
'voila', there he is. Now wasn't that easy?
For example, did he
sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of vacuum
somewhere?
Well he never actually sat and worked out *anything* at *any time*. He was
too busy being non-existent.
He could not do that without some sort of thinking mechanism and
memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
A 'thinking' mechanism? Now where do you suppose a 'God' who purportedly
created himself would have gotten *that* from?
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven,
Or well entrenched in the land of imagination. Wouldn't you agree?
but what does that mean?
That he is about as 'real' as 'God' the 'Mother'. That is to say that entity
which Christians do not realize was the 'Holy Spirit' before she was
'vaporized' by some sort of anti-female clergymen (of some sort or another)
and transformed into some sort of 'God-Gas' that believers inhale in order
to speak fluent gibberish and act stupid.
If
it is a place, then it must have been created.
There you go with that word 'if' again. And you say it as though it were a
given 'fact'. Your 'God' would need to have been 'created', then. And who
did the 'creatin' of the creator? Momma and Poppa 'God'?
And therefore there was a
time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived there.
I'm not going to quibble about that!
So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time -
And then again, 'maybe' both 'things' are just the product of man's fertile
imagination. Did you ever consider *that*?
but there can be no
word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist before
there was a universe for him to exist in.
Are you trying to imply that the 'time' before the existence of the universe
didn't exist? That 'time' is a by-product of the universe? That a 'God'
couldn't possible have the 'time' to create a universe? If so, when did he
'create' himself so that he could one day pretend to have a part of him
crucified so that *you* could spend eternity bowing, scraping, and groveling
before him in eternal bliss?
And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have
come into being at the same moment,
Weeelllllll ... 'No'.
so God could not have created the universe.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Greywolf
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| User: "John D Newport" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
12 Dec 2006 01:24:25 PM |
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"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used
them? Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example, did
he sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of
vacuum somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking
mechanism and memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that mean?
If it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there was
a time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived
there. So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but there
can be no word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have
come into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the
universe.
Please argue.
In my view of God, he created the universe and in doing so, he also
created time, in addition to space, height, width, depth, all dimensions
(known, theorized, or as yet unknown), all forms of matter (known,
theorized, or as yet unknown), and etc. (anything else we can think of). As
far as our ability to define or in anyway describe in worldly terms, he is
totally outside our realm of knowledge. In short, God transcends our
knowledge base.
So, seeing him as I do, I am unable to address your questions. I can
only write of those things that have been revealed in his word.
Check out http://www.reasons.org/
Have a good day,
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
12 Dec 2006 04:30:27 PM |
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John D Newport wrote:
"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used
them? Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example, did
he sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of
vacuum somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking
mechanism and memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that mean?
If it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there was
a time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived
there. So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but there
can be no word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have
come into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the
universe.
Please argue.
In my view of God, he created the universe and in doing so, he also
created time, in addition to space, height, width, depth, all dimensions
(known, theorized, or as yet unknown), all forms of matter (known,
theorized, or as yet unknown), and etc. (anything else we can think of). As
far as our ability to define or in anyway describe in worldly terms, he is
totally outside our realm of knowledge. In short, God transcends our
knowledge base.
So, seeing him as I do, I am unable to address your questions. I can
only write of those things that have been revealed in his word.
Check out http://www.reasons.org/
Have a good day,
If God is outside the realm of human knowledge, how can She reveal
anything to us? Anything that She reveals to us *is* in the realm of
human knowledge, and therefore Her will is too.. which means She is as
well.
.
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| User: "John D Newport" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
12 Dec 2006 09:04:08 PM |
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<tereshka@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165962627.069420.36940@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John D Newport wrote:
"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit
God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not
so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which
he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used
them? Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example,
did
he sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of
vacuum somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking
mechanism and memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that
mean?
If it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there
was
a time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived
there. So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but
there
can be no word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist
before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have
come into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the
universe.
Please argue.
In my view of God, he created the universe and in doing so, he also
created time, in addition to space, height, width, depth, all dimensions
(known, theorized, or as yet unknown), all forms of matter (known,
theorized, or as yet unknown), and etc. (anything else we can think of).
As
far as our ability to define or in anyway describe in worldly terms, he
is
totally outside our realm of knowledge. In short, God transcends our
knowledge base.
So, seeing him as I do, I am unable to address your questions. I
can
only write of those things that have been revealed in his word.
Check out http://www.reasons.org/
Have a good day,
If God is outside the realm of human knowledge, how can She reveal
anything to us? Anything that She reveals to us *is* in the realm of
human knowledge, and therefore Her will is too.. which means She is as
well.
I was trying to communicate to this person with the assumption that they may
deny spiritually provided information, including the information provided in
the Bible. I was also focusing on the subjects that he wants to discuss or
argue about.
As I wrote before, I can only write of those things that have been revealed
in his word.
Have a good night
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
13 Dec 2006 12:34:16 AM |
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"John D Newport" <johndnewport@valornet.com> wrote in message
news:b63a4$457f6da3$d861bc26$6086@ALLTEL.NET...
<tereshka@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165962627.069420.36940@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John D Newport wrote:
"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
<snip>
If God is outside the realm of human knowledge, how can She reveal
anything to us? Anything that She reveals to us *is* in the realm of
human knowledge, and therefore Her will is too.. which means She is as
well.
I was trying to communicate to this person with the assumption that they
may deny spiritually provided information, including the information
provided in the Bible. I was also focusing on the subjects that he wants
to discuss or argue about.
What is spiritually provided information?
How is the Bible spiritually provided information?
What value is spiritually provided information?
--
rb
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
23 Dec 2006 01:11:43 PM |
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On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 06:34:16 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
<stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in alt.atheism
"John D Newport" <johndnewport@valornet.com> wrote in message
news:b63a4$457f6da3$d861bc26$6086@ALLTEL.NET...
<tereshka@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165962627.069420.36940@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John D Newport wrote:
"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
<snip>
If God is outside the realm of human knowledge, how can She reveal
anything to us? Anything that She reveals to us *is* in the realm of
human knowledge, and therefore Her will is too.. which means She is as
well.
I was trying to communicate to this person with the assumption that they
may deny spiritually provided information, including the information
provided in the Bible. I was also focusing on the subjects that he wants
to discuss or argue about.
What is spiritually provided information?
Swamp gas.
How is the Bible spiritually provided information?
The drooler said so.
What value is spiritually provided information?
Less than a thirteen dollar usd bill.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
13 Dec 2006 03:15:52 AM |
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On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 06:34:16 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
<stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
- Refer: <I9Nfh.62840$Fg.19866@tornado.socal.rr.com>
"John D Newport" <johndnewport@valornet.com> wrote in message
news:b63a4$457f6da3$d861bc26$6086@ALLTEL.NET...
<tereshka@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165962627.069420.36940@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John D Newport wrote:
"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
<snip>
If God is outside the realm of human knowledge, how can She reveal
anything to us? Anything that She reveals to us *is* in the realm of
human knowledge, and therefore Her will is too.. which means She is as
well.
I was trying to communicate to this person with the assumption that they
may deny spiritually provided information, including the information
provided in the Bible. I was also focusing on the subjects that he wants
to discuss or argue about.
What is spiritually provided information?
Ex Dues Johnny Walker.
How is the Bible spiritually provided information?
They were obviously drink.
What value is spiritually provided information?
As a cautionary tale of the negative effects of delusion, quite a lot.
--
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| User: "Mary Walker" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
11 Dec 2006 05:16:37 PM |
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"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used
them? Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example, did
he sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of
vacuum somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking
mechanism and memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that mean?
If it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there was
a time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived
there. So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but there
can be no word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have
come into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the
universe.
Please argue.
No, no, no, no, no. You clearly need to go back to the drawing board.
Assuming God created the universe and the world in which we live (although I
have massive reservations about the Christian concept of God and his silly
do-gooder son Jesus - but that's another thread of discussion). What you
have failed to mention is the concept of zero time - i.e. time was an
invention of God and humans are not meant to have any concept of a domain
without time. So God has always existed and always will exist because he
lives in an invisible, spiritual plane which has no time. And this "God"
entity watches as we have famines, children are raped, tsumanis, hurricanes,
car accidents whilst not lifting a finger to help - which is why I don't
believe in this hypocritical Christian "love" God thing. It's all a lot of
crap!
.
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| User: "Chris" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
11 Dec 2006 11:52:48 PM |
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Mary Walker wrote:
"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used
them? Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example, did
he sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of
vacuum somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking
mechanism and memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that mean?
If it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there was
a time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived
there. So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but there
can be no word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have
come into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the
universe.
Please argue.
No, no, no, no, no. You clearly need to go back to the drawing board.
Assuming God created the universe and the world in which we live (although I
have massive reservations about the Christian concept of God and his silly
do-gooder son Jesus - but that's another thread of discussion). What you
have failed to mention is the concept of zero time - i.e. time was an
invention of God and humans are not meant to have any concept of a domain
without time. So God has always existed and always will exist because he
lives in an invisible, spiritual plane which has no time. And this "God"
entity watches as we have famines, children are raped, tsumanis, hurricanes,
car accidents whilst not lifting a finger to help - which is why I don't
believe in this hypocritical Christian "love" God thing. It's all a lot of
crap!
So are you saying that you do not believe in a perfectly acceptable
theory (and far easier to buy than evolution theories) because you
don't agree with how a infinite eternal God runs the world?
Chris
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| User: "Mary Walker" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
13 Dec 2006 04:36:16 AM |
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"Chris" <look2god@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165902768.538399.49350@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
Mary Walker wrote:
"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit
God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not
so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which
he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used
them? Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example,
did
he sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of
vacuum somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking
mechanism and memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that
mean?
If it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there
was
a time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived
there. So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but
there
can be no word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist
before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have
come into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the
universe.
Please argue.
No, no, no, no, no. You clearly need to go back to the drawing board.
Assuming God created the universe and the world in which we live
(although I
have massive reservations about the Christian concept of God and his
silly
do-gooder son Jesus - but that's another thread of discussion). What
you
have failed to mention is the concept of zero time - i.e. time was an
invention of God and humans are not meant to have any concept of a domain
without time. So God has always existed and always will exist because he
lives in an invisible, spiritual plane which has no time. And this "God"
entity watches as we have famines, children are raped, tsumanis,
hurricanes,
car accidents whilst not lifting a finger to help - which is why I don't
believe in this hypocritical Christian "love" God thing. It's all a lot
of
crap!
So are you saying that you do not believe in a perfectly acceptable
theory (and far easier to buy than evolution theories) because you
don't agree with how a infinite eternal God runs the world?
Chris
Oh, I believe in evolution. Do you know why? Well actually for several
reasons - firstly my own observations of animals on this planet and secondly
it's a proven fact. To disregard all the scientific findings of evolution
is pure ignorance.
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| User: "Kilmir" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
13 Dec 2006 04:14:47 AM |
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Chris schreef:
Mary Walker wrote:
"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used
them? Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example, did
he sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of
vacuum somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking
mechanism and memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that mean?
If it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there was
a time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived
there. So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but there
can be no word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have
come into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the
universe.
Please argue.
No, no, no, no, no. You clearly need to go back to the drawing board.
Assuming God created the universe and the world in which we live (although I
have massive reservations about the Christian concept of God and his silly
do-gooder son Jesus - but that's another thread of discussion). What you
have failed to mention is the concept of zero time - i.e. time was an
invention of God and humans are not meant to have any concept of a domain
without time. So God has always existed and always will exist because he
lives in an invisible, spiritual plane which has no time. And this "God"
entity watches as we have famines, children are raped, tsumanis, hurricanes,
car accidents whilst not lifting a finger to help - which is why I don't
believe in this hypocritical Christian "love" God thing. It's all a lot of
crap!
So are you saying that you do not believe in a perfectly acceptable
theory (and far easier to buy than evolution theories) because you
don't agree with how a infinite eternal God runs the world?
Chris
Perfectly acceptable theory and easier to buy then evolution theories?
First off, evolution is a proven fact. You don't have to like it, but
it simply *is* the way life works.
Secondly, it doesn't deal with anything after life-genesis (abio- or
otherwise). It's not even remotely in the same league as astronomy, or
in your case, god-creators.
Well, aside from the black-hole spawning theory which is just evolution
on a macro-macro-scale, but that's a different story altogether ;)
Third, god-theories have a few fatal flaws. One of them being that they
can't be disproven, which makes them useless as scientific theories.
Another being that if it would happen to be true on the (remote) off
chance, those presumed god(s) is/are quite crappy at making a universe
supporting life. In case you hadn't noticed, 99,99% of our universe is
lethal to life due to lack of sustaining matter or radiation that
destroys any life not protected by a magnetosphere or a few layers of
protective clothing. If any conclusions are to be drawn from a
creator-created universe is that we're just side-products, not the
intended goal of the universe.
Fourth, god-theories generally only try to explain one facet and then
proclaim that a whole bunch of assumed properties also apply to that
same god-entity. Which is totally bogus because if there would be a
creator-like being the only thing we could know about it is that it is,
in fact, able to create a universe. Millenia of god-worshipping has
proven only one thing and that is that no god-like being has anything
to do with this planet (and quite probably the universe) or it's daily
operations.
And Fifth, there are a few theories about the origin of our universe,
but they are viewed scientifically. So first off they work with current
knowledge. For instance the exploding-imploding universe idea which
arose in the time that we knew the universe was expanding, but thought
it was decelerating. Secondly a theory should be able to predict stuff,
which the exploding-imploding universe theory did: dark matter, which
we found but not enough of it. The theory was discarded, or at least
put on hold, when we figured out the universe probably wasn't going to
implode after all.
Another few theories which are currently on hold usually have testable
properties, but we don't have any means to actually test them at the
moment. For instance the evolving universes idea where universes are
nothing more then black hole generators which produce more universes.
It's testable if we can actually run tests on black holes. For now it's
shelved. But even that wild idea is based on the observation of a known
phenomena, ie black holes, and gives more lines to study in that
respect.
Your god theory doesn't even have that status. It's just biased
assertions based on nothing but ancient fairytales invented to explain
basic stuff like lightning and floods and has no basis in reality
whatsoever.
Kilmir
#1944
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| User: "rjbjr" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
13 Dec 2006 07:25:07 AM |
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Dear Josh,
I don't understand why you are asking these questions.
Creating universes and setting up laws to govern those universes are things
man is doing now.
We are just starting, but we've just been at it for a few decades now.
Programmers are creating digital universes inside computers, universes that
exist in virtual space.
These universes have a starting time. But, their space and time is
completely different from what we experience. Creatures in these virtual
universes evolve and develop a form of intelligence.
This work is in the early stages, but it gives us an idea how a God can
create a universe. For those inside such a virtual universe, there will be
some who believe their universe is a totally natural phenomenon. Will they
ever be able to understand how their universe started? Others in these
universes will believe they were created by a God.
Which group will be able to convince the other their theory is correct? Can
their science ever discover how they came into existence? Can their science
ever "prove" a Human Being, a creature totally different, did not created
them?
Food for thought?
"josh" <jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used
them?
Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example, did
he
sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of vacuum
somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking mechanism
and
memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that mean?
If
it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there was a
time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived there.
So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but there can be
no
word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have
come
into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the
universe.
Please argue.
.
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| User: "jemsohara" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
24 Dec 2006 07:57:20 PM |
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If your thinking in terms of time -- as you so clearly are -- then time
has to have a beginning. If this is not God, what came before? if
that is not God, we ask the same question, and so on until we get to
Him.
God is outside of time and outside of the universe i.e. God exists in
Eternity. This means he can see the whole thing at once, and since He
is omniscient, omnipresent, etc. He understands it all.
I do not profess to understand Eternity, nothing we have thought of
even Infinity may not be able to describe it -- see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternity.
God said it to Moses first: "I am" . I.e. God simply Is.
josh wrote:
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
with the creation and the ongoing supervision of the world, but are not so
hasty to explain the origin of God and the source of the abilities
attributed to him.
I suggest that God could not exist before there was somewhere in which he
could exist, and that was the universe. If God has amazing powers of
thought and action, what was he doing with those powers before he used them?
Just daydreaming?
It seems impossible to account for God's endless power. For example, did he
sit working out the complexity of the human body in some sort of vacuum
somewhere? He could not do that without some sort of thinking mechanism and
memory, which suggests a previous round of creation.
Short thinkers might just say he was in heaven, but what does that mean? If
it is a place, then it must have been created. And therefore there was a
time when it had not been created, so God could not then have lived there.
So maybe God and heaven had to happen at the same time - but there can be no
word 'happen' in a place outside time!
This takes us back to my first suggestion that God could not exist before
there was a universe for him to exist in. And still the same problem
arises: the universe exists in time, so God and the universe must have come
into being at the same moment, so God could not have created the universe.
Please argue.
.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
24 Dec 2006 07:59:47 PM |
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On 24 Dec 2006 17:57:20 -0800, "jemsohara" <jemsohara@gmail.com>
wrote:
If your thinking in terms of time -- as you so clearly are -- then time
has to have a beginning. If this is not God, what came before? if
that is not God, we ask the same question, and so on until we get to
Him.
God is outside of time and outside of the universe i.e. God exists in
Eternity. This means he can see the whole thing at once, and since He
is omniscient, omnipresent, etc. He understands it all.
I do not profess to understand Eternity, nothing we have thought of
even Infinity may not be able to describe it -- see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternity.
God said it to Moses first: "I am" . I.e. God simply Is.
Either provide evidence outside your religion or admit it is just
*****.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
26 Dec 2006 01:42:20 PM |
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Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On 24 Dec 2006 17:57:20 -0800, "jemsohara" <jemsohara@gmail.com>
wrote:
If your thinking in terms of time -- as you so clearly are -- then time
has to have a beginning. If this is not God, what came before? if
that is not God, we ask the same question, and so on until we get to
Him.
God is outside of time and outside of the universe i.e. God exists in
Eternity. This means he can see the whole thing at once, and since He
is omniscient, omnipresent, etc. He understands it all.
I do not profess to understand Eternity, nothing we have thought of
even Infinity may not be able to describe it -- see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternity.
God said it to Moses first: "I am" . I.e. God simply Is.
Either provide evidence outside your religion or admit it is just
*****.
I want to be watching when you say this to Jesus Christ.
Robert B. Winn
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: What was Time doing before he created the universe? |
24 Dec 2006 10:00:42 PM |
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jemsohara wrote:
If your thinking in terms of time -- as you so clearly are -- then time
has to have a beginning.
did someone tell you this ? did you read it in an 'apology' ?
please persuade me that 'time needs a beginning' except in one's
imagination.
i am listening.
If this is not God, what came before? if
that is not God, we ask the same question, and so on until we get to
Him.
Someone taught you to think this.
Humans do not need to think in these structures.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
24 Dec 2006 10:51:21 PM |
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jemsohara wrote:
If your thinking in terms of time -- as you so clearly are -- then time
has to have a beginning. If this is not God, what came before? if
that is not God, we ask the same question, and so on until we get to
Him.
God is outside of time and outside of the universe i.e. God
===>exists only inm your mind. -- L.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: What was NH2 doing before he programmed the bio-universe? |
25 Dec 2006 01:05:06 AM |
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Libertarius wrote:
jemsohara wrote:
If your thinking in terms of time -- as you so clearly are -- then time
has to have a beginning. If this is not God, what came before? if
that is not God, we ask the same question, and so on until we get to
Him.
God is outside of time and outside of the universe i.e. God
===>exists only in your mind. -- L.
it is reasoned that this entity 'withdraws from itself' in order to
'make a space' for 'creation'.
i suppose it is quite similar to nucleotide bases and amino acids
"shape-shifting" to "upgrade" into proteins and DNA programs.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
20 Dec 2006 08:03:02 PM |
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On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:55:32 -0000, "josh"
<jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in alt.atheism
He was licking his *****.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
11 Dec 2006 06:42:09 PM |
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On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:55:32 -0000, "josh"
<jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
- Refer: <k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk>
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
:
Define "God", as you implicitly assume that such a thing exists.
--
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
23 Dec 2006 01:09:27 PM |
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On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:12:09 +1030, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:55:32 -0000, "josh"
<jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
- Refer: <k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk>
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
:
Define "God", as you implicitly assume that such a thing exists.
"Thou Art God."-Michael Valentine.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
23 Dec 2006 02:22:27 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 11:09:27 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <7mvqo29h44mh2q0moke1ufjnrmtjaio4cn@4ax.com>
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:12:09 +1030, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:55:32 -0000, "josh"
<jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
- Refer: <k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk>
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
:
Define "God", as you implicitly assume that such a thing exists.
"Thou Art God."-Michael Valentine.
Who was he talking to at the time?
His milkman?
(At least it's a far more sensible answer than I am likely to get from
"josh")
--
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
24 Dec 2006 01:40:13 AM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 11:09:27 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <7mvqo29h44mh2q0moke1ufjnrmtjaio4cn@4ax.com>
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:12:09 +1030, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:55:32 -0000, "josh"
<jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
- Refer: <k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk>
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
:
Define "God", as you implicitly assume that such a thing exists.
"Thou Art God."-Michael Valentine.
Who was he talking to at the time?
No, Michael it was the "Global Super Organism" speaking to itself.
His milkman?
yes, via the Global Super-Organism--and its intermediary manifestation
"the milkman"-- he was having intercourse with his wife.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
24 Dec 2006 02:30:21 AM |
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On 23 Dec 2006 23:40:13 -0800, "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
<hasatan@grex.cyberspace.org> wrote:
- Refer: <1166946013.829716.214990@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 11:09:27 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <7mvqo29h44mh2q0moke1ufjnrmtjaio4cn@4ax.com>
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:12:09 +1030, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:55:32 -0000, "josh"
<jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
- Refer: <k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk>
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
:
Define "God", as you implicitly assume that such a thing exists.
"Thou Art God."-Michael Valentine.
Who was he talking to at the time?
No, Michael it was the "Global Super Organism" speaking to itself.
His milkman?
yes, via the Global Super-Organism--and its intermediary manifestation
"the milkman"-- he was having intercourse with his wife.
So, it's not "GOD", but "GSO"!
--
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
24 Dec 2006 03:26:34 AM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On 23 Dec 2006 23:40:13 -0800, "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
<hasatan@grex.cyberspace.org> wrote:
- Refer: <1166946013.829716.214990@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 11:09:27 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <7mvqo29h44mh2q0moke1ufjnrmtjaio4cn@4ax.com>
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:12:09 +1030, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:55:32 -0000, "josh"
<jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
- Refer: <k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk>
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
:
Define "God", as you implicitly assume that such a thing exists.
"Thou Art God."-Michael Valentine.
Who was he talking to at the time?
No, Michael it was the "Global Super Organism" speaking to itself.
His milkman?
yes, via the Global Super-Organism--and its intermediary manifestation
"the milkman"-- he was having intercourse with his wife.
So, it's not "GOD", but "GSO"!
perhaps we could call it, "Meta-Organism, Brain"
The "MOB" running amuck.
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What was God doing before he created the universe? |
24 Dec 2006 08:51:21 PM |
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On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 06:52:27 +1030, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 11:09:27 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <7mvqo29h44mh2q0moke1ufjnrmtjaio4cn@4ax.com>
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:12:09 +1030, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:55:32 -0000, "josh"
<jillywoodsabc@jillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
- Refer: <k_mdnUJkoIF4fODYnZ2dnUVZ8qm3nZ2d@eclipse.net.uk>
Creationists and believers in Intelligent Design are quick to credit God
:
Define "God", as you implicitly assume that such a thing exists.
"Thou Art God."-Michael Valentine.
Who was he talking to at the time?
Gillian, at one point in time, Jubal Harshaw, Ann the Fair Witness,
myraid others.
His milkman?
(At least it's a far more sensible answer than I am likely to get from
"josh")
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
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