Religions > Bible > What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites?
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Matthew Montchalin" |
| Date: |
08 Feb 2005 06:02:13 AM |
| Object: |
What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of the
Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the place-name
'Moab' come from?
I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the language
of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels being
different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different. Since
this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in Usenet.
.
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| User: "o8TY" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
08 Feb 2005 08:38:23 AM |
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"Matthew Montchalin" <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0502080357400.1504-100000@lab.oregonvos.net...
Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of the
Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the place-name
'Moab' come from?
I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the language
of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels being
different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different. Since
this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in Usenet.
Perhaps it relates to the Chemmis (xemmis) of Erodotos.
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| User: "Matthew Montchalin" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
08 Feb 2005 04:48:44 PM |
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o8TY wrote:
|"Matthew Montchalin" <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote in message
|news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0502080357400.1504-100000@lab.oregonvos.net...
|> Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of the
|> Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the place-name
|> 'Moab' come from?
|>
|> I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the language
|> of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels being
|> different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different. Since
|> this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in Usenet.
|>
|
|Perhaps it relates to the Chemmis (xemmis) of Erodotos.
And how about Moab?
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| User: "Herman Rubin" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
08 Feb 2005 12:26:28 PM |
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In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502080357400.1504-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>,
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of the
Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the place-name
'Moab' come from?
I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the language
of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels being
different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different. Since
this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in Usenet.
According to Genesis, "Moab" (Moav in Hebrew) comes from
"me av" (from father), which is supposedly from Lot's
daughters getting their father Lot drunk and having a child
from him. Whether this is correct or not is, of course,
highly debatable.
"Chemosh" looks a lot like "five", "chamisha"; the Torah
is called the "chumash" because it has five books.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
.
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| User: "Yusuf B Gursey" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
08 Feb 2005 05:54:47 PM |
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Herman Rubin wrote:
In article
<Pine.LNX.4.44.0502080357400.1504-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>,
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of the
Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the
place-name
'Moab' come from?
I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the
language
of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels being
different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different. Since
this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in
Usenet.
According to Genesis, "Moab" (Moav in Hebrew) comes from
"me av" (from father), which is supposedly from Lot's
daughters getting their father Lot drunk and having a child
orientalists regard this as a derogatory pun onthe part of OT writers.
from him. Whether this is correct or not is, of course,
highly debatable.
"Chemosh" looks a lot like "five", "chamisha"; the Torah
is called the "chumash" because it has five books.
with $ = *sh*
it's k&mo^$ in masoretic hebrew, with /k/
but "five" is with Heth. "Ch" in Chemosh comes from
the latinized version of the greek (LXX) rendition khamo:s
Heth is either left intransliterated by the LXX if it was
at that time */H/ and by chi /kh/ if it was */x/
corresponds to assyrian names kammus- or kamu:su (acc. to Koehler
with the usual disclaimers about reliability concerning Akkadian!)
no etymology for either is proposed.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
09 Feb 2005 02:41:43 PM |
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Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:
In article
<Pine.LNX.4.44.0502080357400.1504-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>,
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of
the
Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the
place-name
'Moab' come from?
I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the
language
of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels
being
different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different.
Since
this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in
Usenet.
According to Genesis, "Moab" (Moav in Hebrew) comes from
"me av" (from father), which is supposedly from Lot's
daughters getting their father Lot drunk and having a child
orientalists regard this as a derogatory pun onthe part of OT
writers.
from him. Whether this is correct or not is, of course,
highly debatable.
"Chemosh" looks a lot like "five", "chamisha"; the Torah
is called the "chumash" because it has five books.
with $ = *sh*
it's k&mo^$ in masoretic hebrew, with /k/
but "five" is with Heth. "Ch" in Chemosh comes from
the latinized version of the greek (LXX) rendition khamo:s
Heth is either left intransliterated by the LXX if it was
at that time */H/ and by chi /kh/ if it was */x/
corresponds to assyrian names kammus- or
kamu:su
A variant of Amurru, perhaps?
http://www.mesopotamia.co.uk/gods/explore/amurru.html
(acc. to Koehler
with the usual disclaimers about reliability concerning Akkadian!)
no etymology for either is proposed.
.
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| User: "Yusuf B Gursey" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
09 Feb 2005 02:51:43 PM |
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wrote:
Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
it's k&mo^$ in masoretic hebrew, with /k/
but "five" is with Heth. "Ch" in Chemosh comes from
the latinized version of the greek (LXX) rendition khamo:s
Heth is either left intransliterated by the LXX if it was
at that time */H/ and by chi /kh/ if it was */x/
corresponds to assyrian names kammus- or
kamu:su
A variant of Amurru, perhaps?
I see absolutely no connection and I 'm sure nobody will
see a connection either.
http://www.mesopotamia.co.uk/gods/explore/amurru.html
(acc. to Koehler
with the usual disclaimers about reliability concerning Akkadian!)
no etymology for either is proposed.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
15 Feb 2005 06:02:15 PM |
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Herman Rubin wrote:
In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502080357400.1504-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>,
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of the
Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the place-name
'Moab' come from?
I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the language
of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels being
different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different. Since
this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in Usenet.
According to Genesis, "Moab" (Moav in Hebrew) comes from
"me av" (from father), which is supposedly from Lot's
daughters getting their father Lot drunk and having a child
from him. Whether this is correct or not is, of course,
highly debatable.
===>That is one of the explanatory stories based on folk etymology,
or just a play on words, such as the story of "Babel".
It is like saying that the father of the Germans was a man whose
mother was stricken by some mysterious illness caused by GERMS
during her pregnancy, and when she produced a son
he was called a "GERM-MAN" (or some such explanation).
"Chemosh" looks a lot like "five", "chamisha"; the Torah
is called the "chumash" because it has five books.
===>CHEMOSH, like YAHU and BAAL, are members of the
original divine family (ELOHIM) of the father god EL, found
in EBLA and UGARIT. Later they became chosen gods of
various Canaanite tribes, e.g. Moab, Israel/Judah, etc.
NOTE: Ugaritic is the earliest known form of Canaanite,
spoken and written in the 14th and 13th centuries BCE. The sub-dialects
of Canaanite include Phoenician, Punic, Moabite, Edomite, Hebrew and
Ammonite.-- L.
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| User: "Matthew Montchalin" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
08 Feb 2005 04:50:42 PM |
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Herman Rubin wrote:
|Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
|>Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of the
|>Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the place-name
|>'Moab' come from?
|
|>I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the language
|>of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels being
|>different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different. Since
|>this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in Usenet.
|
|According to Genesis, "Moab" (Moav in Hebrew) comes from
|"me av" (from father), which is supposedly from Lot's
|daughters getting their father Lot drunk and having a child
|from him. Whether this is correct or not is, of course,
|highly debatable.
Does 'b' turn into 'v' a lot in, um, ah, Aramaic?
|"Chemosh" looks a lot like "five", "chamisha"; the Torah
|is called the "chumash" because it has five books.
Interesting!
.
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| User: "Herman Rubin" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
09 Feb 2005 01:05:56 PM |
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In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502081449210.25941-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>,
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:
|Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
|>Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of the
|>Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the place-name
|>'Moab' come from?
|>I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the language
|>of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels being
|>different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different. Since
|>this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in Usenet.
|According to Genesis, "Moab" (Moav in Hebrew) comes from
|"me av" (from father), which is supposedly from Lot's
|daughters getting their father Lot drunk and having a child
|from him. Whether this is correct or not is, of course,
|highly debatable.
Does 'b' turn into 'v' a lot in, um, ah, Aramaic?
Hebrew and Aramaic are extremely similar in pronunciation.
The same letter is used for 'b' and 'v' (there is another
also used for 'v' in some places'), and this was probably
an aspirated form. I believe that in this position it
would have to have the aspirated sound.
But the "turning" was from Hebrew into Greek; it was
always expressed as 'beta' in the translation from
Hebrew to Greek, and the 'beta' became 'b' in carrying
the words over to English, as in 'Job', 'Caleb', etc.
|"Chemosh" looks a lot like "five", "chamisha"; the Torah
|is called the "chumash" because it has five books.
Interesting!
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
.
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| User: "Yusuf B Gursey" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
09 Feb 2005 02:05:56 PM |
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Herman Rubin wrote:
In article
<Pine.LNX.4.44.0502081449210.25941-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>,
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:
|Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
|>Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of
the
|>Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the
place-name
|>'Moab' come from?
|>I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the
language
|>of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels
being
|>different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different.
Since
|>this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in
Usenet.
|According to Genesis, "Moab" (Moav in Hebrew) comes from
|"me av" (from father), which is supposedly from Lot's
|daughters getting their father Lot drunk and having a child
|from him. Whether this is correct or not is, of course,
|highly debatable.
Does 'b' turn into 'v' a lot in, um, ah, Aramaic?
Hebrew and Aramaic are extremely similar in pronunciation.
The same letter is used for 'b' and 'v' (there is another
also used for 'v' in some places'), and this was probably
waw was /w/ (semivowel). fricative is recent.
an aspirated form. I believe that in this position it
would have to have the aspirated sound.
rather the fricative sound in masoretic or modern hebrew.
the stops may have been aspirated in early hebrew. the LXX
uses phi i.e. ph for hebrew /p/ theta, i.e. th for hebrew /t/
and khi, i.e. kh for hebrew /k/ throughout, in all positions.
at that time these greek phonemes were not yet fricatives.
the rules of them becoming fricatives in certain positions
came later, as a result of aramaic influence as Peter Daniels
has pointed out.
But the "turning" was from Hebrew into Greek; it was
always expressed as 'beta' in the translation from
Hebrew to Greek, and the 'beta' became 'b' in carrying
the words over to English, as in 'Job', 'Caleb', etc.
|"Chemosh" looks a lot like "five", "chamisha"; the Torah
|is called the "chumash" because it has five books.
Interesting!
it's not intersting because the resemblence is merley a fluke
of rendering into greek and roman scripts.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
15 Feb 2005 06:11:57 PM |
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Herman Rubin wrote:
In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502081449210.25941-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>,
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:
|Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
|>Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of the
|>Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the place-name
|>'Moab' come from?
|>I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the language
|>of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels being
|>different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different. Since
|>this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in Usenet.
|According to Genesis, "Moab" (Moav in Hebrew) comes from
|"me av" (from father), which is supposedly from Lot's
|daughters getting their father Lot drunk and having a child
|from him. Whether this is correct or not is, of course,
|highly debatable.
Does 'b' turn into 'v' a lot in, um, ah, Aramaic?
Hebrew and Aramaic are extremely similar in pronunciation.
The same letter is used for 'b' and 'v' (there is another
also used for 'v' in some places'), and this was probably
an aspirated form. I believe that in this position it
would have to have the aspirated sound.
But the "turning" was from Hebrew into Greek; it was
always expressed as 'beta' in the translation from
Hebrew to Greek, and the 'beta' became 'b' in carrying
the words over to English, as in 'Job', 'Caleb', etc.
===>But in MODERN Greek the "beta" is pronounced as
"vita", the letter "B" being pronounced as a "V". -- L.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
19 Feb 2005 07:38:16 PM |
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Libertarius wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:
In article
<Pine.LNX.4.44.0502081449210.25941-100000@lab.oregonvos.net>,
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:
|Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
|>Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of
the
|>Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the
place-name
|>'Moab' come from?
|>I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the
language
|>of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels
being
|>different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different.
Since
|>this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in
Usenet.
|According to Genesis, "Moab" (Moav in Hebrew) comes from
|"me av" (from father), which is supposedly from Lot's
|daughters getting their father Lot drunk and having a child
|from him. Whether this is correct or not is, of course,
|highly debatable.
Does 'b' turn into 'v' a lot in, um, ah, Aramaic?
Hebrew and Aramaic are extremely similar in pronunciation.
The same letter is used for 'b' and 'v' (there is another
also used for 'v' in some places'), and this was probably
an aspirated form. I believe that in this position it
would have to have the aspirated sound.
But the "turning" was from Hebrew into Greek; it was
always expressed as 'beta' in the translation from
Hebrew to Greek, and the 'beta' became 'b' in carrying
the words over to English, as in 'Job', 'Caleb', etc.
===>But in MODERN Greek the "beta" is pronounced as
"vita", the letter "B" being pronounced as a "V". -- L.
Hence Slavic.
.
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| User: "Peter T. Daniels" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
09 Feb 2005 07:36:35 AM |
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Matthew Montchalin wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:
|Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote:
|>Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of the
|>Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the place-name
|>'Moab' come from?
|
|>I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the language
|>of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels being
|>different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different. Since
|>this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in Usenet.
|
|According to Genesis, "Moab" (Moav in Hebrew) comes from
|"me av" (from father), which is supposedly from Lot's
|daughters getting their father Lot drunk and having a child
|from him. Whether this is correct or not is, of course,
|highly debatable.
Does 'b' turn into 'v' a lot in, um, ah, Aramaic?
Um, ah, where do you think Hebrew got the phenomenon from?
But what does that have to do with Moabite?
|"Chemosh" looks a lot like "five", "chamisha"; the Torah
|is called the "chumash" because it has five books.
Interesting!
--
Peter T. Daniels
.
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| User: "Peter T. Daniels" |
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| Title: Re: What's the etymology to Chemosh, god of the Moabites? |
08 Feb 2005 06:53:17 AM |
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Matthew Montchalin wrote:
Does anybody know what etymology might exist for Chemosh, god of the
Moabites? How certain are the vowels here? What might the place-name
'Moab' come from?
I have a book that says the language of the Israelites and the language
of the Moabites was just about the same, but for a few vowels being
different, and a little bit of the vocabulary was different. Since
this is all over my head, I thought I'd post a general query in Usenet.
"Chemosh" is the form found in the Masoretic vocalization of the Hebrew
Bible. There is no other source for the vowels of the Moabite language.
The Mesha inscription (the sole source for Moabite) is indeed quite
similar to the Hebrew of its time, but it differs in a variety of ways.
--
Peter T. Daniels
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