Religions > Bible > Whats your problem Carl Walter with pastor JoelOsteen?
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"John Wolf" |
| Date: |
27 Sep 2005 11:28:47 PM |
| Object: |
Whats your problem Carl Walter with pastor JoelOsteen? |
Why did you respond the way that you did in response to Joel's "This is my
bible chant" that I sometimes borrow for my bible messages?
I am listening.
John
--
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| User: "Carl Walther" |
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| Title: Problem with Joel Osteen... |
28 Sep 2005 01:08:02 AM |
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John Wolf wrote:
Why did you respond the way that you did in response to Joel's "This is my
bible chant" that I sometimes borrow for my bible messages?
I am listening.
John
--
Posted with a Jornada 720 Handheld PC
Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.
Joel Osteen is a false preacher who claims to be Christian but only
preaches a self-empowerment message that is completely devoid of Christ
crucified and risen. That biblicist creed is totaly ego-centric and it
actually confesses NOTHING but self.
His name it and claim it theology is damning at best.
--Carl
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| User: "Bible John" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen...Some insights |
28 Sep 2005 03:19:13 PM |
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In article <1127887682.891085.154890@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Carl Walther" <no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> wrote:
Joel Osteen is a false preacher who claims to be Christian but only
preaches a self-empowerment message that is completely devoid of Christ
crucified and risen. That biblicist creed is totaly ego-centric and it
actually confesses NOTHING but self.
His name it and claim it theology is damning at best.
--Carl
Carl I pasted below the doctrinal statement of Joel Osteen. Where is
there anything unbiblical? What it does say is biblical, but its what
it does not say where there is a problem. So the statement is LACKING in
a number of areas, but what Joel has said is not unbiblical.
I do agree with you however that he does kinda go overboard in his
preaching. His sermons are 100% topical, and never does he preach an
exegetical sermon, or at least an exegetical topical sermon.
I think that Joel Osteen, John MacArthur, Hank Hanegraaf, David
jeremiah, Randy Frazee, Chip Ingram, and the others help create a
balance in my life.
WE BELIEVEŠthe entire Bible is inspired by God, without error and the
authority on which we base our faith, conduct and doctrine.
WE BELIEVEŠin one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son
and Holy Spirit. We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to
this earth as Savior of the world.
WE BELIEVEŠJesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins. We
believe that salvation is found by placing our faith in what Jesus did
for us on the cross. We believe Jesus rose from the dead and is coming
again.
WE BELIEVEŠwater baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of the blood
of Christ and a testimony to our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
WE BELIEVEŠin the regular taking of Communion as an act of remembering
what the Lord Jesus did for us on the cross.
WE BELIEVEŠevery believer should be in a growing relationship with Jesus
by obeying Godąs Word, yielding to the Holy Spirit and by being
conformed to the image of Christ.
WE BELIEVEŠas children of God, we are overcomers and more than
conquerors and God intends for each of us to experience the abundant
life He has in store for us.
Some areas that Osteen does not touch, but should.
The Lord's Supper
Spirit Baptism
Water Baptism
Qualifications for pastors
missionaries
Church membership
Man's creation
Origin of sin
Satan, Demons
Angels Rewards
Judgments and many other things the Bible speaks to.
John
--
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
2Tim. 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in
season and out of season; correct, rebuke
and encourage ‹ with great patience and
careful instruction.
AIM-Crucifyself03
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| User: "Carl Walther" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen...Some insights |
28 Sep 2005 03:34:36 PM |
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Here are some SERIOUSLY hardcore honest reviews of the several aspects
of Joel's word/faith teachings...
"Joel Osteen's Book 'Your Best Life Now'" Dr. Larry Rast ... Issues,
Etc. can be
heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_apr05.htm
Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free download "Joel Osteen on Self Image" ...
Issues, Etc.
can be heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_mar05.htm
"A Review of Joel Osteen's Grand Opening Sermon" ... Issues, Etc. can
be heard
here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_jul05.htm
"Joel Osteen on Passing God's Test" Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free
download ...
Issues, Etc. can be heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons
..=2E.
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_jun05.htm
"The Creeds of Joel Osteen & Kenneth Copeland"
..=2E. Support Issues, Etc. "Defending the faith . . . teaching the Truth"
..=2E.
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_Nov04.htm
Rev. Richard Niebanck 9.5 Theses "The Impact of Issues, Etc." Tom
Bartzsch and
Stan Slonkosky ... Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free download "Joel Osteen
on Joy" ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_Jan05.htm
"Joel Osteen on Restoration" Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free download
..=2E. Support Issues, Etc. "Defending the faith . . . teaching the Truth"
..=2E.
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_aug04.htm
Now, if you review these and come away thinking Joel is ANYTHING BUT
WORD/FAITH, then you weren't listening.=20
--Carl
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| User: "Bible John" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen...Some insights |
28 Sep 2005 03:47:31 PM |
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Carl I know that Joel has critics, but I think that analyizing his own
doctrine is better than studying hearsay.
What did you think of my last post? I pasted his statement of belief.
Please reread it. I did agree with you on some areas.
John
In article <1127939676.050373.248790@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Carl Walther" <no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here are some SERIOUSLY hardcore honest reviews of the several aspects
of Joel's word/faith teachings...
"Joel Osteen's Book 'Your Best Life Now'" Dr. Larry Rast ... Issues,
Etc. can be
heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie archive apr05.htm
Hour 3 WMA · Hour 3 MP3 free download "Joel Osteen on Self Image" ...
Issues, Etc.
can be heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie archive mar05.htm
"A Review of Joel Osteen's Grand Opening Sermon" ... Issues, Etc. can
be heard
here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie archive jul05.htm
"Joel Osteen on Passing God's Test" Hour 3 WMA · Hour 3 MP3 free
download ...
Issues, Etc. can be heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons
...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie archive jun05.htm
"The Creeds of Joel Osteen & Kenneth Copeland"
... Support Issues, Etc. "Defending the faith . . . teaching the Truth"
...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie archive Nov04.htm
Rev. Richard Niebanck 9.5 Theses "The Impact of Issues, Etc." Tom
Bartzsch and
Stan Slonkosky ... Hour 3 WMA · Hour 3 MP3 free download "Joel Osteen
on Joy" ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie archive Jan05.htm
"Joel Osteen on Restoration" Hour 3 WMA · Hour 3 MP3 free download
... Support Issues, Etc. "Defending the faith . . . teaching the Truth"
...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie archive aug04.htm
Now, if you review these and come away thinking Joel is ANYTHING BUT
WORD/FAITH, then you weren't listening.
--Carl
--
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
2Tim. 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in
season and out of season; correct, rebuke
and encourage ‹ with great patience and
careful instruction.
AIM-Crucifyself03
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen...Some insights |
28 Sep 2005 03:51:11 PM |
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On 28 Sep 2005 13:34:36 -0700, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Here are some SERIOUSLY hardcore honest reviews of the several aspects
of Joel's word/faith teachings...
<snip>
No one is going to go through all of that stuff.
Once again, I see accusations, with no specifics.
This is the closest you can get, obviously.
"Spend hours going through this stuff"
If you have something specific, then people will
be willing to listen. But what you did, is like saying,
"read this 500 page book and it's somewhere in
there, I promise". :)
I have seen many accusations of Joel and not
one specific piece of proof. I'm sorry, your word
is not enough to accept it. The Bible does not
allow for that.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
Craig threatens me with a law suit:
http://Craig-threatens-PastorDave.notlong.com
I prove that Craig does indeed like young girls
and that it is not libel:
http://PastorDave-proves-his-case.notlong.com
Craig knowing he has been bagged, wooses out
of suing me:
http://Craig-wooses-out.notlong.com
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen...Some insights |
28 Sep 2005 03:50:33 PM |
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On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:19:13 -0700, Bible John
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> spake thusly:
In article <1127887682.891085.154890@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Carl Walther" <no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> wrote:
Joel Osteen is a false preacher who claims to be Christian but only
preaches a self-empowerment message that is completely devoid of Christ
crucified and risen. That biblicist creed is totaly ego-centric and it
actually confesses NOTHING but self.
His name it and claim it theology is damning at best.
--Carl
Carl I pasted below the doctrinal statement of Joel Osteen. Where is
there anything unbiblical? What it does say is biblical, but its what
it does not say where there is a problem. So the statement is LACKING in
a number of areas, but what Joel has said is not unbiblical.
They like to accuse, but offer no specific proof.
Joel does not preach the way I personally would,
but I have never heard him say anything unBiblical
and we all have different areas that we preach about.
The thing is, that he is speaking to believers and so,
it should not be necessary to act as if the listeners
are not believers in everything he says and he does
make an altar call at the end of each service.
Point being: I will believe he is false, if it is proved so.
But not until then. As I am a Bible believing, Christian
pastor, I enjoy his messages, because they fit fine for
a listening believer. Not every pastor preaches in a
tent for the purpose of evangelism. Sometimes we
actually do need to address believers as believers,
who need meat and not milk every week. :)
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
Craig threatens me with a law suit:
http://Craig-threatens-PastorDave.notlong.com
I prove that Craig does indeed like young girls
and that it is not libel:
http://PastorDave-proves-his-case.notlong.com
Craig knowing he has been bagged, wooses out
of suing me:
http://Craig-wooses-out.notlong.com
.
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| User: "Bible John" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen...Some insights |
28 Sep 2005 03:55:45 PM |
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In article <7a0mj11dea0nhio8uidsda7m8ch5rb58is@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
They like to accuse, but offer no specific proof.
Its so sad. So many have not read the Connecting Church by Randee
Frazee. The church needs to unite, not divide.
Joel does not preach the way I personally would,
but I have never heard him say anything unBiblical
and we all have different areas that we preach about.
I agree.
The thing is, that he is speaking to believers and so,
it should not be necessary to act as if the listeners
are not believers in everything he says and he does
make an altar call at the end of each service.
In ministry courses we were taught to know your audience. Joel knows his.
Point being: I will believe he is false, if it is proved so.
But not until then. As I am a Bible believing, Christian
pastor, I enjoy his messages, because they fit fine for
a listening believer. Not every pastor preaches in a
tent for the purpose of evangelism. Sometimes we
actually do need to address believers as believers,
who need meat and not milk every week. :)
Osteen is more of a milk preacher, but then again no one is perfect.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
John
PS- Speaking of you Dave, is it true that you reject the Trinity, Jesus
Christ is God, and other historic doctrines?
--
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
2Tim. 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in
season and out of season; correct, rebuke
and encourage -- with great patience and
careful instruction.
AIM-Crucifyself03
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen...Some insights |
28 Sep 2005 09:05:18 PM |
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On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:55:45 -0700, Bible John
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> spake thusly:
Point being: I will believe he is false, if it is proved so.
But not until then. As I am a Bible believing, Christian
pastor, I enjoy his messages, because they fit fine for
a listening believer. Not every pastor preaches in a
tent for the purpose of evangelism. Sometimes we
actually do need to address believers as believers,
who need meat and not milk every week. :)
Osteen is more of a milk preacher,
Yes, you're right. But what I meant by "milk", is the
following...
1 Corinthians 3:1-2
1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto
spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto
ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Combined with the following...
"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need
that one teach you again which be the first principles of
the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of
milk, and not of strong meat." - Hebrews 5:12
PS- Speaking of you Dave, is it true that you reject the Trinity, Jesus
Christ is God, and other historic doctrines?
What I said was, I do not necessarily believe in all that
the word implies, considering that it is no longer a pure
word in churches. Lots of things get piled onto it.
I believe in the Father, Son & Holy Ghost and that they
are of the same substance. However, not all equal in
authority.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
Craig threatens me with a law suit:
http://Craig-threatens-PastorDave.notlong.com
I prove that Craig does indeed like young girls
and that it is not libel:
http://PastorDave-proves-his-case.notlong.com
Craig knowing he has been bagged, wooses out
of suing me:
http://Craig-wooses-out.notlong.com
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen... |
28 Sep 2005 08:19:41 AM |
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On 27 Sep 2005 23:08:02 -0700, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
John Wolf wrote:
Why did you respond the way that you did in response to Joel's "This is my
bible chant" that I sometimes borrow for my bible messages?
I am listening.
John
--
Posted with a Jornada 720 Handheld PC
Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.
Joel Osteen is a false preacher who claims to be Christian but only
preaches a self-empowerment message that is completely devoid of Christ
crucified and risen. That biblicist creed is totaly ego-centric and it
actually confesses NOTHING but self.
His name it and claim it theology is damning at best.
Nobody has shown where he is not Biblical. I have seen
a lot of accusations, but no specifics.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
Craig threatens me with a law suit:
http://Craig-threatens-PastorDave.notlong.com
I prove that Craig does indeed like young girls
and that it is not libel:
http://PastorDave-proves-his-case.notlong.com
Craig knowing he has been bagged, wooses out
of suing me:
http://Craig-wooses-out.notlong.com
.
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| User: "Carl Walther" |
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| Title: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
28 Sep 2005 03:34:08 PM |
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Here are some SERIOUSLY hardcore honest reviews of the several aspects
of Joel's word/faith teachings...
"Joel Osteen's Book 'Your Best Life Now'" Dr. Larry Rast ... Issues,
Etc. can be
heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_apr05.htm
Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free download "Joel Osteen on Self Image" ...
Issues, Etc.
can be heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_mar05.htm
"A Review of Joel Osteen's Grand Opening Sermon" ... Issues, Etc. can
be heard
here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_jul05.htm
"Joel Osteen on Passing God's Test" Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free
download ...
Issues, Etc. can be heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons
..=2E.
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_jun05.htm
"The Creeds of Joel Osteen & Kenneth Copeland"
..=2E. Support Issues, Etc. "Defending the faith . . . teaching the Truth"
..=2E.
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_Nov04.htm
Rev. Richard Niebanck 9.5 Theses "The Impact of Issues, Etc." Tom
Bartzsch and
Stan Slonkosky ... Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free download "Joel Osteen
on Joy" ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_Jan05.htm
"Joel Osteen on Restoration" Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free download
..=2E. Support Issues, Etc. "Defending the faith . . . teaching the Truth"
..=2E.
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_aug04.htm
Now, if you review these and come away thinking Joel is ANYTHING BUT
WORD/FAITH, then you weren't listening.=20
--Carl
.
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| User: "Steven Buehler" |
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| Title: Re: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
01 Oct 2005 02:16:33 PM |
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Carl,
So far I've seen a lot of postings about "Joel Osteen is wrong," but I have
yet to see a single verse of scripture posted here as to WHY he is wrong and
where Scripture contradicts him. Conclusory statements just don't cut it.
I am in the middle of listening to the unabridged audiobook of "Your Best
Life Now" during my morning quiet time walking around one of the local
lakes, and I would agree that, in general, it's not much different than any
other self-help program out there such as Tony Robbins or Stephen Covey
(both of whom I have also listened to). At least 90 percent of just about
all of the self-motivation/self-help material out there can be condensed
down to the tenet that it's all about one's perspective of self. There is
plenty of material that is worth taking and applying, however, and I'm not
about to throw out the whole thing because one item is wrong. To quote
advice given to me years ago, "Eat the meat. Spit out the bones." Always
keep scripture at hand, and what works and agrees with scripture in its
context, use it; what doesn't work with scripture, toss. Simple. But
scripture is the ultimate standard.
There is nothing wrong, in my view, with being materially prosperous.
What's wrong with "word faith" is that the REASON for claiming prosperity is
misguided. Word faith seems to teach that the purpose of prosperity is for
oneself, when the purpose of being made prosperous should be so that
prosperity can be used to further the Kingdom of God by giving back to Him
what is His anyway through dedication of our time, talents, and resources;
that as He blesses us with more, we give back to Him more. There's also
nothing wrong with wanting to be more, do more, if the purpose of being and
doing more is HIS glory rather than our own.
Rick Warren got it right in "The Purpose Driven Life" when he opened the
book with the line, "It's not about you."
SWB
On 9/28/05 4:34 PM, in article
1127939647.989891.234540@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> wrote:
Here are some SERIOUSLY hardcore honest reviews of the several aspects of
Joel's word/faith teachings...
"Joel Osteen's Book 'Your Best Life Now'" Dr. Larry Rast ... Issues, Etc. can
be heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_apr05.htm
Hour 3 WMA · Hour 3 MP3 free download "Joel Osteen on Self Image" ... Issues,
Etc. can be heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_mar05.htm
"A Review of Joel Osteen's Grand Opening Sermon" ... Issues, Etc. can be heard
here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_jul05.htm
"Joel Osteen on Passing God's Test" Hour 3 WMA · Hour 3 MP3 free download ...
Issues, Etc. can be heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_jun05.htm
"The Creeds of Joel Osteen & Kenneth Copeland" ... Support Issues, Etc.
"Defending the faith . . . teaching the Truth"
...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_Nov04.htm
Rev. Richard Niebanck 9.5 Theses "The Impact of Issues, Etc." Tom Bartzsch and
Stan Slonkosky ... Hour 3 WMA · Hour 3 MP3 free download "Joel Osteen on Joy"
... http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_Jan05.htm
"Joel Osteen on Restoration" Hour 3 WMA · Hour 3 MP3 free download ... Support
Issues, Etc. "Defending the faith . . . teaching the Truth"
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_aug04.htm
Now, if you review these and come away thinking Joel is ANYTHING BUT
WORD/FAITH, then you weren't listening.
--Carl
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| User: "Happy One" |
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| Title: Re: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
01 Oct 2005 04:03:50 PM |
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stevenwbuehler@msn.com says...
Carl,
So far I've seen a lot of postings about "Joel Osteen is wrong," but I have
yet to see a single verse of scripture posted here as to WHY he is wrong and
where Scripture contradicts him. Conclusory statements just don't cut it.
Didn't Jesus say something like:
Mat 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell
you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the
kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel
to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man
to enter the kingdom of God."
Luke 18:22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him,
"You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have
and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
Luke 18:23 When he heard this, he became very sad,
because he was a man of great wealth.
And Joel Olsteen is certainly a rich man, and
encourages his followers to be rich.
.
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| User: "Steven Buehler" |
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| Title: Re: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
02 Oct 2005 01:24:03 PM |
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On 10/1/05 5:03 PM, in article
MPG.1da8c3c41a740eb798a147@newsgroups.comcast.net, "Happy One"
<happy207@aol.com> wrote:
Mat 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of
a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Luke 18:22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing.
Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
Luke 18:23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of
great wealth.
And Joel Olsteen is certainly a rich man, and encourages his followers to be
rich.
I think you're missing out on something here. Jesus is not telling these
rich men to take an oath of poverty. He is testing their motivation. He
wanted to know if He was more important to them than "riches," "wealth," or
"prosperity," if they were prepared, if necessary, to give up everything
they have for the Kingdom. The guys Jesus talked to in the passages you
quoted weren't ready to do that, which is why Jesus stated it would be
easier for a camel to pass through a needle than for a rich person to enter
heaven. If your riches mean more to you than Christ, you ain't getting
there. In no way it is saying you can't be wealthy.
The whole question is not external; it is the internal motivation of the
heart. That was Jesus' constant emphasis.
Cross reference this with the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30).
The master gave his wealth to his servants and they multiplied it back to
Him, except for the third servant who hid it away and was surprisingly
rebuked for it. The Master's response to the third servant was a shock to
those listening to Jesus' story, because that third servant did what at that
time was considered the best way to protect another's possessions (in fact,
if you buried your friend's stuff and it was stolen from the place where it
was buried, in that day you were not held liable for the loss because you
buried it). The master gave his servants his wealth and they were expected
to do something with it. Christians (not all, but many) are blessed with
material wealth and possessions, but with that material blessing comes the
responsibility to use it to further His kingdom and not simply hoard for
selfish motives.
Cross reference this further with this saying of Jesus: "To whoever much is
given, of him will much be required; and to whom much was entrusted, of him
more will be asked" (Luke 12:48 WEB).
.
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| User: "Happy One" |
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| Title: Re: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
02 Oct 2005 01:49:28 PM |
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stevenwbuehler@msn.com says...
On 10/1/05 5:03 PM, in article
MPG.1da8c3c41a740eb798a147@newsgroups.comcast.net, "Happy One"
<happy207@aol.com> wrote:
Mat 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of
a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Luke 18:22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing.
Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in
heaven. Then come, follow me."
Luke 18:23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of
great wealth.
And Joel Olsteen is certainly a rich man, and encourages his followers to be
rich.
I think you're missing out on something here.
Surely quite possible.
Jesus is not telling these
rich men to take an oath of poverty. He is testing their motivation. He
wanted to know if He was more important to them than "riches," "wealth," or
"prosperity," if they were prepared, if necessary, to give up everything
they have for the Kingdom. The guys Jesus talked to in the passages you
quoted weren't ready to do that, which is why Jesus stated it would be
easier for a camel to pass through a needle than for a rich person to enter
heaven. If your riches mean more to you than Christ, you ain't getting
there. In no way it is saying you can't be wealthy.
What does this mean:
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him
with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever
will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up
his cross, and follow me.
I can't see that Joel Olsteen has "denied himself"
worldly riches. This with getting rid of everything
seems to me to be saying one should not be rich - even
should not be concerned with success in this world.
The whole question is not external; it is the internal motivation of the
heart. That was Jesus' constant emphasis.
Yes, but to deny the world - let the dead bury
themselves, etc.
Cross reference this with the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30).
The master gave his wealth to his servants and they multiplied it back to
Him, except for the third servant who hid it away and was surprisingly
rebuked for it. The Master's response to the third servant was a shock to
those listening to Jesus' story, because that third servant did what at that
time was considered the best way to protect another's possessions (in fact,
if you buried your friend's stuff and it was stolen from the place where it
was buried, in that day you were not held liable for the loss because you
buried it). The master gave his servants his wealth and they were expected
to do something with it. Christians (not all, but many) are blessed with
material wealth and possessions, but with that material blessing comes the
responsibility to use it to further His kingdom and not simply hoard for
selfish motives.
Ok, but then Joel Olsteen is certainly benefiting from
his stardom and is living a lavish life style. This
hardly gives credence to the internal motivation as
selfless. Note, for example, the total possessions of
Gandhi when he died.
Cross reference this further with this saying of Jesus: "To whoever much is
given, of him will much be required; and to whom much was entrusted, of him
more will be asked" (Luke 12:48 WEB).
Somehow, I don't think Jesus would see that giving to
Joel Olsteen is "entrusting."
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
01 Oct 2005 02:24:38 PM |
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On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 19:16:33 GMT, Steven Buehler
<stevenwbuehler@msn.com> spake thusly:
Carl,
So far I've seen a lot of postings about "Joel Osteen is wrong," but I have
yet to see a single verse of scripture posted here as to WHY he is wrong and
where Scripture contradicts him. Conclusory statements just don't cut it.
I am in the middle of listening to the unabridged audiobook of "Your Best
Life Now" during my morning quiet time walking around one of the local
lakes, and I would agree that, in general, it's not much different than any
other self-help program out there such as Tony Robbins or Stephen Covey
(both of whom I have also listened to). At least 90 percent of just about
all of the self-motivation/self-help material out there can be condensed
down to the tenet that it's all about one's perspective of self. There is
plenty of material that is worth taking and applying, however, and I'm not
about to throw out the whole thing because one item is wrong. To quote
advice given to me years ago, "Eat the meat. Spit out the bones." Always
keep scripture at hand, and what works and agrees with scripture in its
context, use it; what doesn't work with scripture, toss. Simple. But
scripture is the ultimate standard.
There is nothing wrong, in my view, with being materially prosperous.
What's wrong with "word faith" is that the REASON for claiming prosperity is
misguided. Word faith seems to teach that the purpose of prosperity is for
oneself, when the purpose of being made prosperous should be so that
prosperity can be used to further the Kingdom of God by giving back to Him
what is His anyway through dedication of our time, talents, and resources;
that as He blesses us with more, we give back to Him more. There's also
nothing wrong with wanting to be more, do more, if the purpose of being and
doing more is HIS glory rather than our own.
Rick Warren got it right in "The Purpose Driven Life" when he opened the
book with the line, "It's not about you."
What is your point? You quote one man's statement about his
thoughts about a book? I'm sorry, that isn't proof. What planet
do you come from?!
Proof is you quoting an exact statement of Joel's, IN CONTEXT
and the PROVING with SCRIPTURE that he has said something
that is unBiblical and then proving that this isn't simply a
mistake he made, but a pattern.
You can't possibly believe that "you said so" is good enough.
And since you obviously think that saying you have proof and then
that said proof should equal telling other people to go read his
books and listen to a bunch of audio, you don't deserve any more
of my time. Thus far, what you have done, is nothing but libel.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
"All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected,
thoroughly furnished to every good work." 2 Tim 3:16-17
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| User: "Bible John" |
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| Title: Re: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
02 Oct 2005 05:29:31 PM |
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In article <6cotj1990gma2ccamquvtvnt4hn9lrga25@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
What is your point? You quote one man's statement about his
thoughts about a book? I'm sorry, that isn't proof. What planet
do you come from?!
Dave that was a rude remark.
Proof is you quoting an exact statement of Joel's, IN CONTEXT
and the PROVING with SCRIPTURE that he has said something
that is unBiblical and then proving that this isn't simply a
mistake he made, but a pattern.
You can't possibly believe that "you said so" is good enough.
And since you obviously think that saying you have proof and then
that said proof should equal telling other people to go read his
books and listen to a bunch of audio, you don't deserve any more
of my time. Thus far, what you have done, is nothing but libel.
I agree with you dave, but not your behaviors. Dave suggesting that
someone comes from another planet is both crude and rude.
John
--
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
2Tim. 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in
season and out of season; correct, rebuke
and encourage -- with great patience and
careful instruction.
AIM-Crucifyself03
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
02 Oct 2005 05:37:03 PM |
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On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 15:29:31 -0700, Bible John
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> spake thusly:
In article <6cotj1990gma2ccamquvtvnt4hn9lrga25@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
What is your point? You quote one man's statement about his
thoughts about a book? I'm sorry, that isn't proof. What planet
do you come from?!
Dave that was a rude remark.
It certainly made thought a priority.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
"All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected,
thoroughly furnished to every good work." 2 Tim 3:16-17
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| User: "Steven Buehler" |
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| Title: Re: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
02 Oct 2005 01:10:26 PM |
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On 10/1/05 3:24 PM, in article 6cotj1990gma2ccamquvtvnt4hn9lrga25@4ax.com,
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
What is your point? You quote one man's statement about his thoughts about a
book? I'm sorry, that isn't proof. What planet do you come from?!
Proof is you quoting an exact statement of Joel's, IN CONTEXT and the PROVING
with SCRIPTURE that he has said something that is unBiblical and then proving
that this isn't simply a mistake he made, but a pattern.
You can't possibly believe that "you said so" is good enough.
And since you obviously think that saying you have proof and then that said
proof should equal telling other people to go read his books and listen to a
bunch of audio, you don't deserve any more of my time. Thus far, what you
have done, is nothing but libel.
I assume you wrote this to Carl and not me.
SWB
--
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
02 Oct 2005 04:33:13 PM |
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On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:10:26 GMT, Steven Buehler
<stevenwbuehler@msn.com> spake thusly:
On 10/1/05 3:24 PM, in article 6cotj1990gma2ccamquvtvnt4hn9lrga25@4ax.com,
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
What is your point? You quote one man's statement about his thoughts about a
book? I'm sorry, that isn't proof. What planet do you come from?!
Proof is you quoting an exact statement of Joel's, IN CONTEXT and the PROVING
with SCRIPTURE that he has said something that is unBiblical and then proving
that this isn't simply a mistake he made, but a pattern.
You can't possibly believe that "you said so" is good enough.
And since you obviously think that saying you have proof and then that said
proof should equal telling other people to go read his books and listen to a
bunch of audio, you don't deserve any more of my time. Thus far, what you
have done, is nothing but libel.
I assume you wrote this to Carl and not me.
Yes.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
"All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected,
thoroughly furnished to every good work." 2 Tim 3:16-17
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| User: "Carl Walther" |
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| Title: Re: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
01 Oct 2005 07:45:08 PM |
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Then listen to this. This pastor did a review of Osteen's theology. You
seem to be interested in theology. Give it a listen and see if you
don't agree with Pastor Wilken's assessment.
http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc4/Nov_16c.wma
God's peace,
--Carl
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Unbiblical Joel Osteen for Pastor Dave |
28 Sep 2005 03:51:45 PM |
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On 28 Sep 2005 13:34:08 -0700, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Here are some SERIOUSLY hardcore honest reviews of the several aspects
of Joel's word/faith teachings...
<snip>
No one is going to go through all of that stuff.
Once again, I see accusations, with no specifics.
This is the closest you can get, obviously.
"Spend hours going through this stuff"
If you have something specific, then people will
be willing to listen. But what you did, is like saying,
"read this 500 page book and it's somewhere in
there, I promise". :)
I have seen many accusations of Joel and not
one specific piece of proof. I'm sorry, your word
is not enough to accept it. The Bible does not
allow for that.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
Craig threatens me with a law suit:
http://Craig-threatens-PastorDave.notlong.com
I prove that Craig does indeed like young girls
and that it is not libel:
http://PastorDave-proves-his-case.notlong.com
Craig knowing he has been bagged, wooses out
of suing me:
http://Craig-wooses-out.notlong.com
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen... |
28 Sep 2005 01:30:43 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On 27 Sep 2005 23:08:02 -0700, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
can be used elsewhere without expressed written consent of the author.
John Wolf wrote:
Why did you respond the way that you did in response to Joel's "This is my
bible chant" that I sometimes borrow for my bible messages?
I am listening.
John
--
Posted with a Jornada 720 Handheld PC
Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.
Joel Osteen is a false preacher who claims to be Christian but only
preaches a self-empowerment message that is completely devoid of Christ
crucified and risen. That biblicist creed is totaly ego-centric and it
actually confesses NOTHING but self.
His name it and claim it theology is damning at best.
BOY, am I glad to not be the only one to see through Joel like he's a
sheet of window glass!
God bless!
john w
--Carl
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| User: "Carl Walther" |
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| Title: Joel Osteen Reviewed |
28 Sep 2005 03:33:25 PM |
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Here are some SERIOUSLY hardcore honest reviews of the several aspects
of Joel's word/faith teachings...
"Joel Osteen's Book 'Your Best Life Now'" Dr. Larry Rast ... Issues,
Etc. can be
heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_apr05.htm
Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free download "Joel Osteen on Self Image" ...
Issues, Etc.
can be heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_mar05.htm
"A Review of Joel Osteen's Grand Opening Sermon" ... Issues, Etc. can
be heard
here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_jul05.htm
"Joel Osteen on Passing God's Test" Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free
download ...
Issues, Etc. can be heard here and on AM 850 KFUO weekday afternoons
..=2E.
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_jun05.htm
"The Creeds of Joel Osteen & Kenneth Copeland"
..=2E. Support Issues, Etc. "Defending the faith . . . teaching the Truth"
..=2E.
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_Nov04.htm
Rev. Richard Niebanck 9.5 Theses "The Impact of Issues, Etc." Tom
Bartzsch and
Stan Slonkosky ... Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free download "Joel Osteen
on Joy" ...
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_Jan05.htm
"Joel Osteen on Restoration" Hour 3 WMA =B7 Hour 3 MP3 free download
..=2E. Support Issues, Etc. "Defending the faith . . . teaching the Truth"
..=2E.
http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_aug04.htm
Now, if you review these and come away thinking Joel is ANYTHING BUT
WORD/FAITH, then you weren't listening.=20
--Carl
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Joel Osteen Reviewed |
28 Sep 2005 03:46:45 PM |
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On 28 Sep 2005 13:33:25 -0700, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Here are some SERIOUSLY hardcore honest reviews of the several aspects
of Joel's word/faith teachings...
<snip>
No one is going to go through all of that stuff.
Once again, I see accusations, with no specifics.
This is the closest you can get, obviously.
"Spend hours going through this stuff"
If you have something specific, then people will
be willing to listen. But what you did, is like saying,
"read this 500 page book and it's somewhere in
there, I promise". :)
I have seen many accusations of Joel and not
one specific piece of proof. I'm sorry, your word
is not enough to accept it. The Bible does not
allow for that.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
Craig threatens me with a law suit:
http://Craig-threatens-PastorDave.notlong.com
I prove that Craig does indeed like young girls
and that it is not libel:
http://PastorDave-proves-his-case.notlong.com
Craig knowing he has been bagged, wooses out
of suing me:
http://Craig-wooses-out.notlong.com
.
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| User: "Carl Walther" |
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| Title: Re: Joel Osteen Reviewed |
28 Sep 2005 05:47:45 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On 28 Sep 2005 13:33:25 -0700, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Here are some SERIOUSLY hardcore honest reviews of the several aspects
of Joel's word/faith teachings...
<snip>
No one is going to go through all of that stuff.
If you lisen to just one of them for 10 minutes, it would be abundantly
clear that the God that Joel Osteen preaches is closer to "self" than
the God of the bible.
Please listen
http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc5/Issues_Etc_Apr_20b.wma
If you like that, here is part 2
http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc5/Issues_Etc_Apr_20c.wma
Just kick back and listen.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Joel Osteen Reviewed |
29 Sep 2005 01:41:53 AM |
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On 28 Sep 2005 15:47:45 -0700, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
On 28 Sep 2005 13:33:25 -0700, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Here are some SERIOUSLY hardcore honest reviews of the several aspects
of Joel's word/faith teachings...
<snip>
No one is going to go through all of that stuff.
If you lisen to just one of them for 10 minutes, it would be abundantly
clear that the God that Joel Osteen preaches is closer to "self" than
the God of the bible.
I have heard him preach a number of times. What
specifically does he say, that bothers you?
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
Craig threatens me with a law suit:
http://Craig-threatens-PastorDave.notlong.com
I prove that Craig does indeed like young girls
and that it is not libel:
http://PastorDave-proves-his-case.notlong.com
Craig knowing he has been bagged, wooses out
of suing me:
http://Craig-wooses-out.notlong.com
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| User: "Carl Walther" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen... |
28 Sep 2005 05:49:15 PM |
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If you lisen to just one of them for 10 minutes, it would be abundantly
clear that the God that Joel Osteen preaches is closer to "self" than
the God of the bible.
Please listen
http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc5/Issues_Etc_Apr_20b.wma
If you like that, here is part 2
http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc5/Issues_Etc_Apr_20c.wma
Just kick back and listen.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen... |
29 Sep 2005 02:05:21 AM |
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On 28 Sep 2005 15:49:15 -0700, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
If you lisen to just one of them for 10 minutes, it would be abundantly
clear that the God that Joel Osteen preaches is closer to "self" than
the God of the bible.
That's what people said about his TV show. I haven't heard
anything bad yet. What specifically has he said that
bothers you and make sure to leave it in context.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
Craig threatens me with a law suit:
http://Craig-threatens-PastorDave.notlong.com
I prove that Craig does indeed like young girls
and that it is not libel:
http://PastorDave-proves-his-case.notlong.com
Craig knowing he has been bagged, wooses out
of suing me:
http://Craig-wooses-out.notlong.com
.
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen... |
29 Sep 2005 03:55:49 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 07:05:21 GMT, Pastor Dave
<1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
can be used elsewhere without expressed written consent of the author.
On 28 Sep 2005 15:49:15 -0700, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
If you lisen to just one of them for 10 minutes, it would be abundantly
clear that the God that Joel Osteen preaches is closer to "self" than
the God of the bible.
That's what people said about his TV show. I haven't heard
anything bad yet. What specifically has he said that
bothers you and make sure to leave it in context.
Rather than having someone boil it down and leaving out something that
you'd think was critical, suppose you follow Carl's links and hear it
for yourself.
If you find nothing objectionable in the mp3s, then perhaps that says
a lot about you as well..
God bless!
john w
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Problem with Joel Osteen... |
29 Sep 2005 03:54:33 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On 28 Sep 2005 15:49:15 -0700, "Carl Walther"
<no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
can be used elsewhere without expressed written consent of the author.
If you lisen to just one of them for 10 minutes, it would be abundantly
clear that the God that Joel Osteen preaches is closer to "self" than
the God of the bible.
Thanks, Carl!
I'm listening to one of them now!
It's an eye-opener, all right!
And it says a LOT about John Wolf, who is one of Joel's most outspoken
advocates that I've run into!!
God bless!
john w
Please listen
http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc5/Issues_Etc_Apr_20b.wma
If you like that, here is part 2
http://worldwide.kfuo.org/kfuo/issues_etc5/Issues_Etc_Apr_20c.wma
Just kick back and listen.
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