| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
23 May 2006 02:27:06 PM |
| Object: |
When Was Revelation Written? |
With the dating of Revelation, you establish the
true historical prospective. If you date it early, you
have its fulfillment in God's judgment on Israel. If
you date it late, you have every man's idea. So dating
plays a very important part in its interpretation.
There are differences of opinion as to when this
book was written. These can be summed up as
the "late date" and the "early date" theories. First,
we'll cover the late date theory. Then we'll examine
the facts which support the early date theory.
The Late Date Theory
Those who hold to the "late date," have Revelation
written during the time of Domitian Caesar (AD 95-96).
This date is determined by the following statement by
Irenaeus (AD 130 to AD 202), as quoted by Eusebius,
the church historian, in AD 325: "We will not, however,
incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name
of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name
should be distinctly revealed in this present time,
it would have been announced by him who beheld
the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very
long time since, but almost in our day, towards
the end of Domitian's reign."
There are things about this statement that need
to be noted.
First, Irenaeus did not witness this. He referred to
Polycarp (who supposedly knew the apostle John).
Secondly, the key part — "it is not long since it was
seen", is ambiguous. According to Irenaeus'
recollection, Polycarp saw "it" sometime in AD 95-96,
during the last part Domitian's reign.
Thirdly, we do not know if the "it" Polycarp was
referring to was John, the visions he saw, the name
of anti-christ, or the book itself and we do not know
if he meant that the book was written at that time
or not.
Furthermore, it comes to us through three people
separated by three centuries. Simply put, this is
hear-say.
This statement, even with all of this uncertainty,
is the *_ONLY_* evidence used to support the
"late date" theory. It has been accepted by
generations of people without really questioning it
or examining it in light of the book itself. The late
date has been passed on to us in the same way it
was passed on to Eusebius, "…it [was] handed down
by tradition…". Tradition is not the way to interpret
Scripture. (:
Another statement by Irenaeus seems to indicate
the earlier date also. In his fifth book, he speaks as
follows concerning the Apocalypse of John and the
number of the name of the Antichrist...
"As these things are so, and this number is found
in all the approved and ancient copies.".
Domitian's reign was ALMOST IN HOIS OWN DAY,
but now he speaks of the Revelation being written in
ANCIENT COPIES. His statement at least gives some
doubt as to the "vision" being seen in 95 AD which
was almost in his day, and even suggests a time
somewhat removed from his own day for him
to consider the copies available to him as ancient.
The Early Date Theory
So, where can we turn to find evidence for the
dating of Revelation? Within the book itself! It
will be shown, from internal evidence, that Revelation
was written before the destruction of Jerusalem,
which occurred in AD 70.
John must prophesy again
The first point to consider in favor of the early
date is the fact that John was told that he "must
prophesy again before many peoples, and nations,
and tongues, and kings" in Revelation 10:11. Now,
if Revelation was written in AD 95-96, John would
have been over 90 years old and it would have been
very difficult for him to travel to the various
"nations and…many kings" and preach. However,
with Revelation written earlier, John would have
been in his mid 60's and at that age, his traveling
would have been more feasible.
The Seven Churches in Asia
Another point is that John wrote Revelation to
a specific group of churches in Asia (Revelation 1:4).
The importance of this statement cannot be overlooked
(even though it has been by many scholars). There
is only one small window of time in which there were
only seven churches in Asia. The early AD 60's.
The apostle Paul established nine churches in that
area, but only seven were addressed in Revelation.
The reason for this is that the cities of Colosse,
Hierapolis, and Laodicea, were all destroyed by
an earthquake around AD 61. Laodicea was rebuilt
soon afterwards, but the other two cities were not.
This left only seven churches in Asia during the five
years just prior to the beginning of the Roman/Jewish
war that took place in the first century, from roughly
66.5 AD, to 70 AD (which is 3.5 years (see Daniel)).
Of particular importance is the message to the
church of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13). In verse's
10 and 11, Christ told John to inform them that an
"hour of temptation" was "about to come upon all
the world," i.e., the Roman Empire. Christ then
told them that He was coming quickly and that
they should hold fast. The reason this is important
(besides the fact that this was directed to an actual
church in the first century) is that the first
persecution of Christians took place under Nero Caesar
in AD 64. Therefore, Revelation must have been written
before that time.
The Temple was still standing
One of the most compelling proofs that Revelation
was written before Jerusalem was destroyed is the
fact that the Jewish temple was still standing!
Revelation 11:1-2, "And there was given me
a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying,
Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar,
and them that worship therein. But the court which
is without the temple leave out, and measure it not;
for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city
shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
How do we know that this was the temple of the
first century and not some future one? First, there
is not one verse in the entire Bible that speaks of a
"rebuilt" Jewish Temple. Not one. That alone should
be proof enough.
However, this passage is very similar to Luke
21:20-24. Notice that Jesus told the disciples that
they would see this event. They had asked Him about
their temple (verse 5), and Jesus told them it would
be destroyed before their generation passed away
(verse 32). Notice again what Jesus said in verse 24,
"Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles.".
This is the same thing Christ told John in Rev 11:2.
Therefore, since the disciples' generation has long
since passed away, Revelation must have been written
before the nations trampled Jerusalem under foot in
AD 70.
The Tribes of the Earth
Most writers consider the theme of the book
to be Revelation 1:7. This verse is very similar
in context to Matthew 24:30.
Revelation 1:7, "Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him, and they also which
pierced him: and all kindreds [Greek word #5443]
of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
Matthew 24:30, "And then shall appear the sign
of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the
tribes [Greek word #5443] of the earth mourn, and
they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
of heaven with power and great glory."
It may not be conclusive standing alone, but you
can see that just based on the language, a case can
be made that the two verses are speaking of the same
event. Matthew 24:30 is a verse that speaks of the
fall of Jerusalem. And that is just the case that I am
making about the book of Revelation -- it speaks of
the fall of Jerusalem.
Notice also the language of Revelation 1:7. It
speaks of those who "pierced him". Although we
know that the Romans crucified him and pierced
him, the apostles accused the Jews of the act. In
Acts 2:23,36, Peter says that they crucified Jesus.
He continues to state this in his following sermons
(Acts 3:15; 4:10; 5:30). Stephen, in Acts 7:51-52,
calls them murderers. And Paul, in 1 Cor 2:8,
speaks of the Jews killing the Lord. And also in
I Thess 2:14-15, he speaks of the Jews that killed
both the Lord Jesus and the prophets. So perhaps
the book concerns itself with the Jews.
This view is further reinforced with the phrase,
"kindreds of the earth." ("kindreds" is from the
Greek word phule, which means "tribe"). This is
a direct allusion to the Jewish tribal system.
In fact, when we look at a prime example of "phule"
in the NT, we see the following usage...
"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the TWELVE TRIBES (PHULE) which are scattered
abroad, greeting." - James 1:1
Yes, in fact, every time this Greel word appears in
the NT, it is used to speak of the tribes of Israel.
Thus, when we see, for example, Jesus saying,
"and all the tribes of the earth will mourn", it is
the tribes of Israel that He is speaking of and even
the word that is translated as "earth", does not
mean "the planet", but rather, means the land,
which is a reference to the Jewish land. To a Jew,
you were either "in the land", or "out of the land"
and they referenced the Gentiles as being "of the sea"
(see Revelation and the beast that came up out of
the sea).
And when we read Luke 21:20-22, which is part
of the parallel to His discourse about His return
in Matthew 24, we can see that His return dealt
*_ONLY_* with Jerusalem and Judea, as far as
the physical destruction was concerned. In fact,
none of the words that are translated as "earth"
in Revelation, mean the planet. That Greek word
would be "kosmos" (see Mat 13:35 & John 1:9),
but that word is not used in Revelation, nor in
Jesus' discourse regarding His return. The word
used in those places, is one of two, which mean
either "land", or "a region".
But let us go farther and further prove the point.
We must identify, from Scripture, who those
"tribes" were. To do that, we must keep in mind
this simple rule of interpreting the Bible: let
Scripture interpret Scripture. We can do that
quite easily by looking at Zechariah 12:10-14.
Zechariah 12:10-14, "And I will pour upon
the...inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace
and of supplications: and they shall look upon me
whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for
him, as one mourneth for his only son...In that day
shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem...And
the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family
of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their
wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart,
and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart,
and their wives apart; All the families that remain,
every family apart, and their wives apart."
Obviously, this is the foundation for John's
statement that "every eye shall see him, and they
also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth
(or land) shall wail because of him". So, in essence,
Zechariah was saying that the "tribes of the land"
would mourn for Him whom they had pierced.
Who were those tribes? "The inhabitants of Jerusalem".
This also helps us identify the "earth" in Rev 1:7.
According to Zechariah, the "earth" is the land of
Palestine, specifically, Jerusalem. Also, it is those
tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would "look
upon Me whom they have pierced". And because
of that, "the mourning in Jerusalem" would be great.
With all of this information, we can see that the
"tribes of the earth" in Rev 1:7 are the nation of
Israel. The "earth" is Palestine. The land that
would mourn is Jerusalem.
And let us remember, that even if the return of Jesus
was physical and bodily (which Scripture does not
teach), it would still have to have happened in the
first century, in the Jewish land and not the whole
world. Why?
1) As we have learned, the "land" was the Jewish land.
2) Revelation 1:7 says that "they who pierced Him"
would "see Him" return. They that pierced Him,
lived in the first century, not the 21st century.
So, the main purpose of Revelation would be
to reveal Jesus to the nation of Israel. The place
of this revealing would be Jerusalem. Lastly, this
revealing would be to those who pierced Him, i.e.,
the Jews. This is not a general reference to the
Jewish nation, but to Christ's contemporary generation.
That generation was destroyed in AD 70, by the Roman
Legions. Therefore, the book of Revelation must have
been written before that event.
The Woman
The next thing that we need to look at is
"the woman" found in chapters 17 and 18.
John wrote that he saw a "woman drunken with
the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the
martyrs of Jesus" (17:6). The "woman" had this
name written on her forehead: "MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (17:5).
The angel said that "the woman" was a poetic symbol
of "that great city" (17:18); in whom "was found the
blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were
slain upon the earth." (18:24). Then John wrote,
"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles
and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her…
Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon
be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all"
(18:20, 21). So who was this "woman?" Who was
this "great city"?
John gave us a clue in Revelation 11:8, where he
wrote, "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street
of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom
and Egypt, WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS
CRUCIFIED". This shows us, as we saw above, that
John was referring to the Jerusalem of his day.
To prove this assertion, Let's look at the term
"Sodom". John wrote that this is a "figurative"
name. That means it does not tell us the actual
name of the city, but it's spiritual condition.
Once more, in letting the Bible interpret itself,
we find this is a reference to Jerusalem. In Isaiah,
chapter 1, after declaring that he had a "vision…
concerning Judah and Jerusalem" (verse 1),
Isaiah wrote, "Hear the words of the Lord, you
rulers of Sodom". In Jeremiah 23:14, because
of the adulterous prophets, God said that Jerusalem
and her inhabitants were "all of them unto me
as Sodom."
But what about "Egypt"? No where in the Bible
is Jerusalem called Egypt. However, the first century
generation was also in an exodus. While Old Testament
Israel's exodus was from the bondage of Egypt, the
New Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage
of the Old Covenant Law. The most recognizable
passage that depicts this "new exodus" is found in
I Cor 10:1-11. Paul wrote, "Now all these things
happened unto them for examples: and they are
written for OUR (Paul is addressing the Christians
of HIS generation) admonition, UPON WHOM
THE ENDS OF THE WORLD ARE COME".
Now it is VERY IMPORTANT to note that this is
a bad translation of a word here, in the KJV. The
Greek word behind "world", is "aion", which doesn't
mean "the planet Earth", but rather, it means
"an age". This is also the case in Matthew 24:3,
where you can now see that the disciples did not
ask about "the end of the world", but rather, they
asked about "the end of the age". It was not the
physical end of the physical planet that they
believed in, but the consummation of the ages
(Hebrews 9:26). So to continue believing that
the end of the world is coming, is to be in error.
Paul's contextual foundation for this statement was
the Old Testament exodus from Egyptian bondage.
He wrote that they had passed through the sea (v 1).
They ate manna and drank from the rock (verse's 3-4).
He then relays how they wandered in the wilderness
(v 5), became idolaters (v 7), tried the Lord and were
destroyed by serpents (v 9). This shows us that, just
like the "type and shadow" of the Old Testament and
their deliverance from bondage, the New Testament
saints were undergoing the same exodus. The only
difference was that Paul's generation was the reality
to which the Old Testament example pointed.
Furthermore, in Luke 13:33-34, Jesus said,
"[T]oday and tomorrow, and on the following [day],
I must travel on, because it is not possible [for]
a prophet to perish outside Jerusalem. Jerusalem!
Jerusalem! The [one] killing the prophets, and stoning
those having been sent to her". Then, in Mat 23:29-37,
Jesus blasted the Jews of His day for killing the
prophets and the apostles. He declared that they
are the children of their fathers who also killed
the prophets. Then in verse 32, Jesus said that they
would complete the sin that their fathers started.
But the most crucial evidence is found in verse 35,
where Jesus said, "upon you (i.e., the Jews of His day)
may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on
the earth". Then He said, "I tell you the truth, all
of these things will happen to you people who are
living now. Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the
prophets and stone to death those who are sent to you"
(vs 36-37). In both passages, Jesus told the Jews of
His day that they were guilty of "all the righteous
blood shed upon the earth" (see also Acts 7:51-52).
Therefore, since both of these passages deal with
the same crime and the same judgment, the "great city"
of Revelation must be the Jerusalem of Christ's
generation. Which further proves that Revelation
was been written before Jerusalem fell in AD 70.
The Sixth King
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen,
and one is, and the other is not yet come;
and when he cometh, he must continue
a short space." - Revelation 17:10
So far we have seen that Revelation deals with
the revealing of Jesus to first century Israel. As
noted above, "the woman" John saw was first century
Jerusalem. The "kings," therefore, were the rulers of
the known world of John's day, i.e., the Roman Empire.
The "kings" were not ruling at the same time, for
the text stated "five fell", meaning that five of those
kings had come and gone. Then "one is", meaning
the "king" who was ruling at the time Revelation
was written. Here in this verse, we have one of
he clearest proofs for dating this book. If we simply
examine the list of Roman Emperors, we will be able
to determine who the sixth king was, and the time
Revelation was written.
Here are the Roman Emperors:
1) Julius Caesar
2) Augustus
3) Tiberius
4) Gaius (Caligula)
5) Claudius
6) And the sixth emperor was…Nero.
Nero reigned from 54AD to June of 68AD, with Galba
to follow who reigns but six months.
Now it is important to remember that of the seventh
Emperor, Revelation says...
"...and the other [the seventh] is not yet come;
and when he cometh, he must continue a short
space." - Revelation 17:10b
I would say that six months is a "short space",
wouldn't you? :)
And so here we find the terrible persecutors
of the Christians (at whose hand Peter and Paul
were martyred), whom God used to destroy the
Jews. Nero was in power and he gave the command
to Vespasian to destroy Jerusalem. This was the
sixth king, proving beyond any doubt that Revelation
was written before the Roman/Jewish war.
Historically, Nero is the one that persecuted
Christians beyond all comparison and there is
absolutely zero evidence that Domitian persecuted
the Christians to any great degree, let alone death,
at the very end of the first century!
St. John's banishment to Patmos was itself a result
of the great persecution of Nero. The apostle Paul
was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor
Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. The apostle Peter, who was
crucified upside down, was another victim of Nero.
The Song of Moses
To anyone familiar with the Law of Moses and
Jewish tradition, Revelation 15:2,3 will have meaning.
It says that those martyrs "who had come off victorious
from the Beast" were singing "the Song of Moses".
Question: if these martyrs are Christians
living 2,000 years after Christ, why would these
Christians be singing the Song of Moses? Does
any Christian alive today know how to sing this
song? Deuteronomy 32:1-43 is the song that John
has reference to.
The Jews were to sing this song to remind
themselves of what would befall them "in the latter
days" (Deuteronomy 31:29). The song talks about
"their end" - the Jews (verse 20), and details their
destruction by a consuming "fire" (verse 22),
"famine" (verse 24), "plague" (verse 24) and
"bitter destruction" (verse 24). God calls them
a "perverse generation" (verses 5 and 20), and
says He will "render vengeance" upon them and
"vindicate His people" (verse 41 and 36 respectively).
Why would Christian martyrs of the 21st century be
singing this song about the Romans, when the song
had reference to the Jews living in the 1st century?
It wouldn't make much sense.
Aren't these the same martyrs who cried out
earlier, "How long, O Lord, wilt Thou refrain from
judging and avenging our blood" (Revelation 6:10)?
Who was it who had all the "blood of the righteous"
martyrs imputed against them? Clearly, it was
Christians who had kept their faith in Jesus, in spite
of the intense persecution, and "had come off
victorious from the Beast" (See Matthew 23:35
and Luke 13:33)! This passage (Revelation 15:2,3)
points very clearly to followers of Christ living in
the first century.
In Revelation 16:10,11, it says that the people in
the Beast's kingdom "gnawed their tongues because of
pain." They had great sores on their bodies along with
other plagues that had been poured out on them. We know
from Josephus when the Jews literally gnawed their
tongues for lack of food during the siege of AD 70!
And, it is interesting that Josephus even calls the
Jewish Zealot forces a "wild beast" in several places
(Wars V.1.1; IV.7.4; IV.9.8; V.2.5)! This point is
emphasized even more by the fact that the whole context
of the Song of Moses is full of references to "beasts,"
"serpents," and "dragons" (Leviticus 26; Deuteronomy
28-32; Deuteronomy 32:24,33).
The Time Element
Next consider the expectations of the author,
Jesus Christ. He tells John to expect the fulfillment
of the prophecy soon (Revelation 1:1,3; 2:16; 3:11;
22:6,7,10,12,20).
In Revelation 1:1,3, right off the bat, John
informed his readers, the seven churches of Asia
(verse 4), that the contents of this volume "must
shortly come to pass".
Please note, that John did not write that some of
the events, or even most of the events must shortly
take place. He wrote that all of the events contained
in Revelation "must shortly come to pass". Why?
Why must those things "shortly come to pass"?
Because "the time (was) at hand". At hand for whom?
The seven churches of Asia, specifically, and to the
church of the first century in general. The time for
what was at hand? "The Revelation of Jesus Christ".
Remember, as we saw above, this is the main episode
of Revelation.
In Revelation 22:6, John wrote that the Lord sent
an angel to John "to shew unto his servants the things
which must shortly be done". Here, at the end of
the book of Revelation, John recorded the exact same
message that he did in chapter 1.
This again emphasizes that all of the events contained
in Revelation were about to take place in the first
century and they were not stretched throughout time,
and certainly not for any future generation.
In Revelation 22:10, the angel of the Lord said
to John, "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of
this book: for the time is at hand". Once more,
we have proof that the events of Revelation were
about to take place in the first century. However,
another element was added to this warning. The
angel told John not to seal the Scroll. Why is this
important? To answer that, let's look at the book
of Daniel.
After Daniel had received visions concerning his
people (the nation of Israel), he was told, "thy people
shall be delivered, every one that shall be found
written in the book" (12:1). Daniel is then told how
they would be rescued by resurrection, some would
be rewarded with "everlasting life" and others with
"everlasting contempt" (verse 2). But then, Daniel
is told something very peculiar. In verse 4, Daniel
was told, "shut up the words, and seal the book,
even to the time of the end". Please note that this
verse says the "time of the end", and not "the end
of time". There is a huge difference between the
end of time and the time of the end. Now, we must
ask; "Whose time of the end?". Verse 1 told us that
Daniel's visions concerned the nation of Israel,
not mankind in general.
Next, Daniel saw two angels talking about
the fulfillment of all that he had seen (v 6).
One asked the other, "How long shall it be to
the end of these wonders"? The answer was,
"when he shall have accomplished to scatter
the power of the holy people, all these things
shall be finished" (v 7). But Daniel could not
understand what they meant, so he asked again,
"When?". The angel answered "Go thy way,
Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed
till the time of the end". Now that we have
looked at this passage, how does it relate to
Revelation 21?
Did you know that there is only one other place
in the Bible where a sealed book is referred to?
Revelation, chapter 5. How Daniel relates to
Revelation is that Revelation is the opening of
Daniel's sealed book!! Remember, Daniel's visions
were concerning the "time of the end" of Israel,
and Revelation is about God's judgment on Israel.
They are one and the same. The reason this has
direct bearing on Revelation 21, is that Daniel
was told to seal his book concerning the end
"for it pertains to many days in the future"
(Dan.8:26), but John was told not to seal his book
"because the time is at hand" (Revelation 22:10).
The end of Old Covenant Israel was at hand.
All things written had to be fulfilled by the time
Jerusalem fell in AD 70 (see Luke 21:20-22).
Therefore, since Revelation is the opening of Daniel,
then it must have been fulfilled by the summer of
AD 70.
Our next time statement is found in Rev 21:12.
There, Jesus told John, "And, behold, I come quickly;
and my reward is with me, to give every man according
as his work shall be". Notice that Jesus did not say
that "when I come, I will come quickly". Rather,
He emphatically said that He was coming "quickly".
But He also said something else. He said that His
reward was with Him to give every man according
to his works. Now some state that this has not
happened yet. However, we must let Scripture
interpret Scripture, and turn to Matthew 16:27-28
and Mark 8:38-9:1 and Luke 9:26-27.
Jesus said the exact same thing in these three
verses that He did in Revelation 21 and in
Revelation 22:12. PLEASE COMPARE THIS VERSE
WITH MATTHEW 16:27-28, in which Jesus said
that He would "reward every man according to
his works". These are the exact same "comings"
with the exact same "rewards". But, Jesus also said
in these three verses, "There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:27-28)
Notice that Jesus tied His coming to the lives of His
disciples. He said that some of his listeners would
not die until He came. But to whom is He coming?
And what will be their reward? Jesus said that
the "coming" would be to the first century generation
of Israel (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32).
Daniel told us that the "rewards" would be that some
would be resurrected to "everlasting life" and others
to "everlasting contempt". Now, let's put these two
passages together. Jesus said He was coming and
He was going to reward each according to his works,
and that some of the disciples wouldn't die until
they saw this take place. Therefore, since all of
the disciples are dead, Jesus must have returned
and rewarded each according to his works.
Furthermore, in Revelation, He said the same thing,
therefore it must be fulfilled!
Conclusion
If a person doesn't believe the first three verses
of Revelation (i.e., the near expectation of the
events), neither will he believe the rest of the book.
For if a person is unwilling to accept the time
constraints of the text, the rest of the document
can mean anything that the reader desires.
If the Apostle John was banished to Patmos under
the reign of Nero, as the internal evidence indicates,
he wrote the book of Revelation about AD 68 or 69,
which was after the death of that emperor; but the
gospels and epistles some years later. One of the
oddest facts about the New Testament is that what
on any showing would appear to be the single most
datable and climactic event of the period (the fall
of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), is never once mentioned
as a passed fact.
The inscription to the book of Revelation, in the
Syrian version, first published by Deuteronomy Dieu,
in 1627, and, afterwards in the London Polyglot, is
the following, "The Revelation which God made to
John the evangelist, in the Island of Patmos, to which
he was banished by Nero Caesar."
This places it before the year of our Lord 69AD.
Not only this, but the earliest translation of
the Scriptures that we have (the Syriac version),
the same is said as the title of the Book of
Revelation.
This is a fact and Revelation was written BEFORE
the fall of Jerusalem and was about the fall of
Jerusalem!
May God bless you in this reading and may you
be honest and objective enough to study this,
instead of responding with your selfish desire
that it be all about YOU!
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
/
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\
"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."
http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/vital/evolutio.html
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| User: "Ronald More-More Moshki" |
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| Title: Re: When Was Revelation Written? |
23 May 2006 07:38:35 PM |
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Best guess is 1491.
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| User: "Ronald More-More Moshki" |
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| Title: Re: When Was Revelation Written? |
23 May 2006 07:01:05 PM |
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Best guess is 1491.
See how easy it is.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: When Was Revelation Written? |
23 May 2006 11:03:46 PM |
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Originally, about 70 C.E., by Jewish Zealots who hoped that YHWH would
punish the Romans for destroying Jerusalem and the Temple and send a
"New Jerusalem" from "heaven".
Christians did not even recognize it at first, but finally, after a lot
of editing
and Christianizing, it was accepted into the Canon. -- L.
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***
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| User: "Bible Bob" |
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| Title: Re: When Was Revelation Written? |
23 May 2006 09:39:40 PM |
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On Tue, 23 May 2006 19:27:06 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
With the dating of Revelation, you establish the
true historical prospective. If you date it early, you
have its fulfillment in God's judgment on Israel. If
you date it late, you have every man's idea. So dating
plays a very important part in its interpretation.
There are differences of opinion as to when this
book was written. These can be summed up as
the "late date" and the "early date" theories. First,
we'll cover the late date theory. Then we'll examine
the facts which support the early date theory.
The Late Date Theory
Those who hold to the "late date," have Revelation
written during the time of Domitian Caesar (AD 95-96).
This date is determined by the following statement by
Irenaeus (AD 130 to AD 202), as quoted by Eusebius,
the church historian, in AD 325: "We will not, however,
incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name
of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name
should be distinctly revealed in this present time,
it would have been announced by him who beheld
the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very
long time since, but almost in our day, towards
the end of Domitian's reign."
There are things about this statement that need
to be noted.
First, Irenaeus did not witness this. He referred to
Polycarp (who supposedly knew the apostle John).
Secondly, the key part — "it is not long since it was
seen", is ambiguous. According to Irenaeus'
recollection, Polycarp saw "it" sometime in AD 95-96,
during the last part Domitian's reign.
Thirdly, we do not know if the "it" Polycarp was
referring to was John, the visions he saw, the name
of anti-christ, or the book itself and we do not know
if he meant that the book was written at that time
or not.
Furthermore, it comes to us through three people
separated by three centuries. Simply put, this is
hear-say.
This statement, even with all of this uncertainty,
is the *_ONLY_* evidence used to support the
"late date" theory. It has been accepted by
generations of people without really questioning it
or examining it in light of the book itself. The late
date has been passed on to us in the same way it
was passed on to Eusebius, "…it [was] handed down
by tradition…". Tradition is not the way to interpret
Scripture. (:
Another statement by Irenaeus seems to indicate
the earlier date also. In his fifth book, he speaks as
follows concerning the Apocalypse of John and the
number of the name of the Antichrist...
"As these things are so, and this number is found
in all the approved and ancient copies.".
Domitian's reign was ALMOST IN HOIS OWN DAY,
but now he speaks of the Revelation being written in
ANCIENT COPIES. His statement at least gives some
doubt as to the "vision" being seen in 95 AD which
was almost in his day, and even suggests a time
somewhat removed from his own day for him
to consider the copies available to him as ancient.
The Early Date Theory
So, where can we turn to find evidence for the
dating of Revelation? Within the book itself! It
will be shown, from internal evidence, that Revelation
was written before the destruction of Jerusalem,
which occurred in AD 70.
John must prophesy again
The first point to consider in favor of the early
date is the fact that John was told that he "must
prophesy again before many peoples, and nations,
and tongues, and kings" in Revelation 10:11. Now,
if Revelation was written in AD 95-96, John would
have been over 90 years old and it would have been
very difficult for him to travel to the various
"nations and…many kings" and preach. However,
with Revelation written earlier, John would have
been in his mid 60's and at that age, his traveling
would have been more feasible.
The Seven Churches in Asia
Another point is that John wrote Revelation to
a specific group of churches in Asia (Revelation 1:4).
The importance of this statement cannot be overlooked
(even though it has been by many scholars). There
is only one small window of time in which there were
only seven churches in Asia. The early AD 60's.
The apostle Paul established nine churches in that
area, but only seven were addressed in Revelation.
The reason for this is that the cities of Colosse,
Hierapolis, and Laodicea, were all destroyed by
an earthquake around AD 61. Laodicea was rebuilt
soon afterwards, but the other two cities were not.
This left only seven churches in Asia during the five
years just prior to the beginning of the Roman/Jewish
war that took place in the first century, from roughly
66.5 AD, to 70 AD (which is 3.5 years (see Daniel)).
Of particular importance is the message to the
church of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13). In verse's
10 and 11, Christ told John to inform them that an
"hour of temptation" was "about to come upon all
the world," i.e., the Roman Empire. Christ then
told them that He was coming quickly and that
they should hold fast. The reason this is important
(besides the fact that this was directed to an actual
church in the first century) is that the first
persecution of Christians took place under Nero Caesar
in AD 64. Therefore, Revelation must have been written
before that time.
The Temple was still standing
One of the most compelling proofs that Revelation
was written before Jerusalem was destroyed is the
fact that the Jewish temple was still standing!
Revelation 11:1-2, "And there was given me
a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying,
Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar,
and them that worship therein. But the court which
is without the temple leave out, and measure it not;
for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city
shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
How do we know that this was the temple of the
first century and not some future one? First, there
is not one verse in the entire Bible that speaks of a
"rebuilt" Jewish Temple. Not one. That alone should
be proof enough.
However, this passage is very similar to Luke
21:20-24. Notice that Jesus told the disciples that
they would see this event. They had asked Him about
their temple (verse 5), and Jesus told them it would
be destroyed before their generation passed away
(verse 32). Notice again what Jesus said in verse 24,
"Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles.".
This is the same thing Christ told John in Rev 11:2.
Therefore, since the disciples' generation has long
since passed away, Revelation must have been written
before the nations trampled Jerusalem under foot in
AD 70.
The Tribes of the Earth
Most writers consider the theme of the book
to be Revelation 1:7. This verse is very similar
in context to Matthew 24:30.
Revelation 1:7, "Behold, he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him, and they also which
pierced him: and all kindreds [Greek word #5443]
of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
Matthew 24:30, "And then shall appear the sign
of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the
tribes [Greek word #5443] of the earth mourn, and
they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
of heaven with power and great glory."
It may not be conclusive standing alone, but you
can see that just based on the language, a case can
be made that the two verses are speaking of the same
event. Matthew 24:30 is a verse that speaks of the
fall of Jerusalem. And that is just the case that I am
making about the book of Revelation -- it speaks of
the fall of Jerusalem.
Notice also the language of Revelation 1:7. It
speaks of those who "pierced him". Although we
know that the Romans crucified him and pierced
him, the apostles accused the Jews of the act. In
Acts 2:23,36, Peter says that they crucified Jesus.
He continues to state this in his following sermons
(Acts 3:15; 4:10; 5:30). Stephen, in Acts 7:51-52,
calls them murderers. And Paul, in 1 Cor 2:8,
speaks of the Jews killing the Lord. And also in
I Thess 2:14-15, he speaks of the Jews that killed
both the Lord Jesus and the prophets. So perhaps
the book concerns itself with the Jews.
This view is further reinforced with the phrase,
"kindreds of the earth." ("kindreds" is from the
Greek word phule, which means "tribe"). This is
a direct allusion to the Jewish tribal system.
In fact, when we look at a prime example of "phule"
in the NT, we see the following usage...
"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the TWELVE TRIBES (PHULE) which are scattered
abroad, greeting." - James 1:1
Yes, in fact, every time this Greel word appears in
the NT, it is used to speak of the tribes of Israel.
Thus, when we see, for example, Jesus saying,
"and all the tribes of the earth will mourn", it is
the tribes of Israel that He is speaking of and even
the word that is translated as "earth", does not
mean "the planet", but rather, means the land,
which is a reference to the Jewish land. To a Jew,
you were either "in the land", or "out of the land"
and they referenced the Gentiles as being "of the sea"
(see Revelation and the beast that came up out of
the sea).
And when we read Luke 21:20-22, which is part
of the parallel to His discourse about His return
in Matthew 24, we can see that His return dealt
*_ONLY_* with Jerusalem and Judea, as far as
the physical destruction was concerned. In fact,
none of the words that are translated as "earth"
in Revelation, mean the planet. That Greek word
would be "kosmos" (see Mat 13:35 & John 1:9),
but that word is not used in Revelation, nor in
Jesus' discourse regarding His return. The word
used in those places, is one of two, which mean
either "land", or "a region".
But let us go farther and further prove the point.
We must identify, from Scripture, who those
"tribes" were. To do that, we must keep in mind
this simple rule of interpreting the Bible: let
Scripture interpret Scripture. We can do that
quite easily by looking at Zechariah 12:10-14.
Zechariah 12:10-14, "And I will pour upon
the...inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace
and of supplications: and they shall look upon me
whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for
him, as one mourneth for his only son...In that day
shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem...And
the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family
of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their
wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart,
and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart,
and their wives apart; All the families that remain,
every family apart, and their wives apart."
Obviously, this is the foundation for John's
statement that "every eye shall see him, and they
also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth
(or land) shall wail because of him". So, in essence,
Zechariah was saying that the "tribes of the land"
would mourn for Him whom they had pierced.
Who were those tribes? "The inhabitants of Jerusalem".
This also helps us identify the "earth" in Rev 1:7.
According to Zechariah, the "earth" is the land of
Palestine, specifically, Jerusalem. Also, it is those
tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would "look
upon Me whom they have pierced". And because
of that, "the mourning in Jerusalem" would be great.
With all of this information, we can see that the
"tribes of the earth" in Rev 1:7 are the nation of
Israel. The "earth" is Palestine. The land that
would mourn is Jerusalem.
And let us remember, that even if the return of Jesus
was physical and bodily (which Scripture does not
teach), it would still have to have happened in the
first century, in the Jewish land and not the whole
world. Why?
1) As we have learned, the "land" was the Jewish land.
2) Revelation 1:7 says that "they who pierced Him"
would "see Him" return. They that pierced Him,
lived in the first century, not the 21st century.
Revelation 1:7 contains figures of speech that you failed to mention
that affect the sense of the passage. One of the figures is
Polysyndeton which is a figure of addition that affects the order in
which the words are used and how the words are separated to form three
groups. Another figure, Synecdoche of the Part, uses a part of the
body for the whole body. The figure Polysyndeton affects the sense of
the passage by establishing that there are three strictly coordinate
groups of people spoken of. Again, the conjunction "kai" (and) always
connects things strictly coordinate. They hold the same rank. They
are never discoordinate.
Revelation 1:7 KJV
Behold, he cometh with clouds;
(1) and every eye shall see him,
(2) and they [also] which pierced him:
(3) and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen.
As you said "phule" does refer to a tribe and contextually the tribes
of Israel. And as you said "earth" from "ge" does refer to the land;
not the planet (cosmos). But there is more. I think you also
mentioned the principal of allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture.
Okay, the only other usage of "ekkenteo" (pierced) occurs in John
19:37 where the figure Gnome (Quotation) refers back to Zec 12:10
which I think you addressed somewhere in this post. It was a Roman
soldier who pierced his side (the Greek word used in John 19:34 for
"pierced" is "nusso," a different word) but he was simply an
instrument of the people who demanded the execution.
In the first group "every eye shall see him," the word
"eye" is employed by the figure Synecdoche of the Part where the part
(the eye) is put for the whole (person).
The words "every" and "all" are used with spiritual significance in
the Scriptures. In the first group we read 'every" eye and in the
third group we read "all" kindreds. "All" and "every" are often
translated from the same Greek word "pas" which has different forms,
which is often affected by the presence of the article, and which is
affected by it's number. In the first case, "every" is singular. In
the second case, "all" is plural. The article does not precede either
word.
When singular without the article, "pas" means "every." When singular
with the article it means the whole of the object it qualifies. Thus,
pasa polis means every city and pasa en polis means the whole of the
city. In the first group "every" eye refers to every person. The
question, then, is which every person? Every person of Israel or
every person of the whole world or every person of a group not
specifically named? Well, the context of the first chapter indicates
that John is speaking to the seven Jewish assemblies; Jewish because
the word "angel" in verse 20 refers to the messenger of the assembly;
the minister of the synagogue. Thus, the "every" refers to the every
of the group the context speaks to.
The third group is qualified by the word "all" which is plural without
the article and refers to all tribes constituting a whole which is
what the twelve tribes do.
The three groups are Jewish people. We can agree on that. However,
you said:
"2) Revelation 1:7 says that "they who pierced Him" would "see Him"
return. They that pierced Him, lived in the first century, not the
21st century."
Now let's read Revelation 1:7 and see if it says what you said it
says:
Revelation 1:7 KJV
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they
[also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail
because of him. Even so, Amen.
Does it say "they which pierced him will see him?" No. We have
established that it was the Jewish tribes that were accountable for
the piercing; but the Jewish tribes lived before, during, and after
the piercing. If you read the verse, you will see that the words
"shall see him" and the words "shall wail because of him" are not in
the second group. Why? You answered the question when you made
reference to Zechariah.
Zechariah 12:10 KJV
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of
Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall
look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as
one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him,
as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
The three groups refer back to what Zechariah 12:10 says and is the
use of a special form of the figure Gnome (Quotation). Now, Gnome is
a rather complicated figure and I can not explain it in a few short
paragraphs. I explain in it detail here:
http://www.biblebob.net/Figures/Gnome.htm
EW Bullinger devoted 27 pages of small type to it in his book Figures
of Speech used in the Bible available from the following link for
free.
http://www.biblebob.net/Figures/_FOS.htm
As an aside, the figure Gnome, destroys many of the views about
apparent contradictions offered by skeptics.
So, what you have said about what Revelation 1:7 is pretty accurate;
until you insert your private interpretation of a prophecy in
contravention of
2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any
private [Gr. idios = one's own] interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy
men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Since Zechariah speaks of a future event, since John 19:37 speaks of a
future event, and since Revelation 1:7 speaks of a future event from
the date of John's revelation you can not conclude that the Jews that
shall see him lived during the first century. But, neither I or
anyone else can say that it speaks of the 21st century. Until a
prophecy is fulfilled it can not be known. The reason that no
prophecy of the Scripture is of any one's on interpretation is because
prophecies are self interpreting as the events unfold. Else, Satan
would know God's plans.
I have to admit, you and I have had our differences. But while I have
not read and digested all of this article; it is one your best. I
still don't trust you but I do respect your effort and will try to
find the time to put together all that you have said. No, I am not
trying to be nice (well maybe a little bit); I just like to know my
enemies and how my enemies think.
It is apparent that your mission is to overthrow the faith of some by
stealing the "hope" from them. My job is to make known the "hope".
Your god says steal and my God says give. Your doctrine is designed
to discourage and to rob believers of their justification by faith
which joins them in peace with God and the Lord Jesus Christ. It is
the hope that makes us unashamed because the love of God is shed
abroad in our hearts. You desire to steal the love of God from the
hearts and lives of the children of God so that they will not share
it with the world.
Romans 5:1-5 KJV
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through
our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we
stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that
tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad
in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
I really do need to get my book "All Dogs Don't Go To Heaven" finished
so that I can send you a copy so that you can reagin your hope and
anticipate all that God in Christ has in store for His children.
Then, if you are not one you can become one and look forward to the
hope that is set before us.
So, the main purpose of Revelation would be
to reveal Jesus to the nation of Israel. The place
of this revealing would be Jerusalem. Lastly, this
revealing would be to those who pierced Him, i.e.,
the Jews. This is not a general reference to the
Jewish nation, but to Christ's contemporary generation.
That generation was destroyed in AD 70, by the Roman
Legions. Therefore, the book of Revelation must have
been written before that event.
The Woman
The next thing that we need to look at is
"the woman" found in chapters 17 and 18.
John wrote that he saw a "woman drunken with
the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the
martyrs of Jesus" (17:6). The "woman" had this
name written on her forehead: "MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (17:5).
The angel said that "the woman" was a poetic symbol
of "that great city" (17:18); in whom "was found the
blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were
slain upon the earth." (18:24). Then John wrote,
"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles
and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her…
Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon
be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all"
(18:20, 21). So who was this "woman?" Who was
this "great city"?
John gave us a clue in Revelation 11:8, where he
wrote, "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street
of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom
and Egypt, WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS
CRUCIFIED". This shows us, as we saw above, that
John was referring to the Jerusalem of his day.
To prove this assertion, Let's look at the term
"Sodom". John wrote that this is a "figurative"
name. That means it does not tell us the actual
name of the city, but it's spiritual condition.
Once more, in letting the Bible interpret itself,
we find this is a reference to Jerusalem. In Isaiah,
chapter 1, after declaring that he had a "vision…
concerning Judah and Jerusalem" (verse 1),
Isaiah wrote, "Hear the words of the Lord, you
rulers of Sodom". In Jeremiah 23:14, because
of the adulterous prophets, God said that Jerusalem
and her inhabitants were "all of them unto me
as Sodom."
But what about "Egypt"? No where in the Bible
is Jerusalem called Egypt. However, the first century
generation was also in an exodus. While Old Testament
Israel's exodus was from the bondage of Egypt, the
New Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage
of the Old Covenant Law. The most recognizable
passage that depicts this "new exodus" is found in
I Cor 10:1-11. Paul wrote, "Now all these things
happened unto them for examples: and they are
written for OUR (Paul is addressing the Christians
of HIS generation) admonition, UPON WHOM
THE ENDS OF THE WORLD ARE COME".
Now it is VERY IMPORTANT to note that this is
a bad translation of a word here, in the KJV. The
Greek word behind "world", is "aion", which doesn't
mean "the planet Earth", but rather, it means
"an age". This is also the case in Matthew 24:3,
where you can now see that the disciples did not
ask about "the end of the world", but rather, they
asked about "the end of the age". It was not the
physical end of the physical planet that they
believed in, but the consummation of the ages
(Hebrews 9:26). So to continue believing that
the end of the world is coming, is to be in error.
Paul's contextual foundation for this statement was
the Old Testament exodus from Egyptian bondage.
He wrote that they had passed through the sea (v 1).
They ate manna and drank from the rock (verse's 3-4).
He then relays how they wandered in the wilderness
(v 5), became idolaters (v 7), tried the Lord and were
destroyed by serpents (v 9). This shows us that, just
like the "type and shadow" of the Old Testament and
their deliverance from bondage, the New Testament
saints were undergoing the same exodus. The only
difference was that Paul's generation was the reality
to which the Old Testament example pointed.
Furthermore, in Luke 13:33-34, Jesus said,
"[T]oday and tomorrow, and on the following [day],
I must travel on, because it is not possible [for]
a prophet to perish outside Jerusalem. Jerusalem!
Jerusalem! The [one] killing the prophets, and stoning
those having been sent to her". Then, in Mat 23:29-37,
Jesus blasted the Jews of His day for killing the
prophets and the apostles. He declared that they
are the children of their fathers who also killed
the prophets. Then in verse 32, Jesus said that they
would complete the sin that their fathers started.
But the most crucial evidence is found in verse 35,
where Jesus said, "upon you (i.e., the Jews of His day)
may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on
the earth". Then He said, "I tell you the truth, all
of these things will happen to you people who are
living now. Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the
prophets and stone to death those who are sent to you"
(vs 36-37). In both passages, Jesus told the Jews of
His day that they were guilty of "all the righteous
blood shed upon the earth" (see also Acts 7:51-52).
Therefore, since both of these passages deal with
the same crime and the same judgment, the "great city"
of Revelation must be the Jerusalem of Christ's
generation. Which further proves that Revelation
was been written before Jerusalem fell in AD 70.
The Sixth King
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen,
and one is, and the other is not yet come;
and when he cometh, he must continue
a short space." - Revelation 17:10
So far we have seen that Revelation deals with
the revealing of Jesus to first century Israel. As
noted above, "the woman" John saw was first century
Jerusalem. The "kings," therefore, were the rulers of
the known world of John's day, i.e., the Roman Empire.
The "kings" were not ruling at the same time, for
the text stated "five fell", meaning that five of those
kings had come and gone. Then "one is", meaning
the "king" who was ruling at the time Revelation
was written. Here in this verse, we have one of
he clearest proofs for dating this book. If we simply
examine the list of Roman Emperors, we will be able
to determine who the sixth king was, and the time
Revelation was written.
Here are the Roman Emperors:
1) Julius Caesar
2) Augustus
3) Tiberius
4) Gaius (Caligula)
5) Claudius
6) And the sixth emperor was…Nero.
Nero reigned from 54AD to June of 68AD, with Galba
to follow who reigns but six months.
Now it is important to remember that of the seventh
Emperor, Revelation says...
"...and the other [the seventh] is not yet come;
and when he cometh, he must continue a short
space." - Revelation 17:10b
I would say that six months is a "short space",
wouldn't you? :)
And so here we find the terrible persecutors
of the Christians (at whose hand Peter and Paul
were martyred), whom God used to destroy the
Jews. Nero was in power and he gave the command
to Vespasian to destroy Jerusalem. This was the
sixth king, proving beyond any doubt that Revelation
was written before the Roman/Jewish war.
Historically, Nero is the one that persecuted
Christians beyond all comparison and there is
absolutely zero evidence that Domitian persecuted
the Christians to any great degree, let alone death,
at the very end of the first century!
St. John's banishment to Patmos was itself a result
of the great persecution of Nero. The apostle Paul
was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor
Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. The apostle Peter, who was
crucified upside down, was another victim of Nero.
The Song of Moses
To anyone familiar with the Law of Moses and
Jewish tradition, Revelation 15:2,3 will have meaning.
It says that those martyrs "who had come off victorious
from the Beast" were singing "the Song of Moses".
Question: if these martyrs are Christians
living 2,000 years after Christ, why would these
Christians be singing the Song of Moses? Does
any Christian alive today know how to sing this
song? Deuteronomy 32:1-43 is the song that John
has reference to.
The Jews were to sing this song to remind
themselves of what would befall them "in the latter
days" (Deuteronomy 31:29). The song talks about
"their end" - the Jews (verse 20), and details their
destruction by a consuming "fire" (verse 22),
"famine" (verse 24), "plague" (verse 24) and
"bitter destruction" (verse 24). God calls them
a "perverse generation" (verses 5 and 20), and
says He will "render vengeance" upon them and
"vindicate His people" (verse 41 and 36 respectively).
Why would Christian martyrs of the 21st century be
singing this song about the Romans, when the song
had reference to the Jews living in the 1st century?
It wouldn't make much sense.
Aren't these the same martyrs who cried out
earlier, "How long, O Lord, wilt Thou refrain from
judging and avenging our blood" (Revelation 6:10)?
Who was it who had all the "blood of the righteous"
martyrs imputed against them? Clearly, it was
Christians who had kept their faith in Jesus, in spite
of the intense persecution, and "had come off
victorious from the Beast" (See Matthew 23:35
and Luke 13:33)! This passage (Revelation 15:2,3)
points very clearly to followers of Christ living in
the first century.
In Revelation 16:10,11, it says that the people in
the Beast's kingdom "gnawed their tongues because of
pain." They had great sores on their bodies along with
other plagues that had been poured out on them. We know
from Josephus when the Jews literally gnawed their
tongues for lack of food during the siege of AD 70!
And, it is interesting that Josephus even calls the
Jewish Zealot forces a "wild beast" in several places
(Wars V.1.1; IV.7.4; IV.9.8; V.2.5)! This point is
emphasized even more by the fact that the whole context
of the Song of Moses is full of references to "beasts,"
"serpents," and "dragons" (Leviticus 26; Deuteronomy
28-32; Deuteronomy 32:24,33).
The Time Element
Next consider the expectations of the author,
Jesus Christ. He tells John to expect the fulfillment
of the prophecy soon (Revelation 1:1,3; 2:16; 3:11;
22:6,7,10,12,20).
In Revelation 1:1,3, right off the bat, John
informed his readers, the seven churches of Asia
(verse 4), that the contents of this volume "must
shortly come to pass".
Please note, that John did not write that some of
the events, or even most of the events must shortly
take place. He wrote that all of the events contained
in Revelation "must shortly come to pass". Why?
Why must those things "shortly come to pass"?
Because "the time (was) at hand". At hand for whom?
The seven churches of Asia, specifically, and to the
church of the first century in general. The time for
what was at hand? "The Revelation of Jesus Christ".
Remember, as we saw above, this is the main episode
of Revelation.
In Revelation 22:6, John wrote that the Lord sent
an angel to John "to shew unto his servants the things
which must shortly be done". Here, at the end of
the book of Revelation, John recorded the exact same
message that he did in chapter 1.
This again emphasizes that all of the events contained
in Revelation were about to take place in the first
century and they were not stretched throughout time,
and certainly not for any future generation.
In Revelation 22:10, the angel of the Lord said
to John, "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of
this book: for the time is at hand". Once more,
we have proof that the events of Revelation were
about to take place in the first century. However,
another element was added to this warning. The
angel told John not to seal the Scroll. Why is this
important? To answer that, let's look at the book
of Daniel.
After Daniel had received visions concerning his
people (the nation of Israel), he was told, "thy people
shall be delivered, every one that shall be found
written in the book" (12:1). Daniel is then told how
they would be rescued by resurrection, some would
be rewarded with "everlasting life" and others with
"everlasting contempt" (verse 2). But then, Daniel
is told something very peculiar. In verse 4, Daniel
was told, "shut up the words, and seal the book,
even to the time of the end". Please note that this
verse says the "time of the end", and not "the end
of time". There is a huge difference between the
end of time and the time of the end. Now, we must
ask; "Whose time of the end?". Verse 1 told us that
Daniel's visions concerned the nation of Israel,
not mankind in general.
Next, Daniel saw two angels talking about
the fulfillment of all that he had seen (v 6).
One asked the other, "How long shall it be to
the end of these wonders"? The answer was,
"when he shall have accomplished to scatter
the power of the holy people, all these things
shall be finished" (v 7). But Daniel could not
understand what they meant, so he asked again,
"When?". The angel answered "Go thy way,
Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed
till the time of the end". Now that we have
looked at this passage, how does it relate to
Revelation 21?
Did you know that there is only one other place
in the Bible where a sealed book is referred to?
Revelation, chapter 5. How Daniel relates to
Revelation is that Revelation is the opening of
Daniel's sealed book!! Remember, Daniel's visions
were concerning the "time of the end" of Israel,
and Revelation is about God's judgment on Israel.
They are one and the same. The reason this has
direct bearing on Revelation 21, is that Daniel
was told to seal his book concerning the end
"for it pertains to many days in the future"
(Dan.8:26), but John was told not to seal his book
"because the time is at hand" (Revelation 22:10).
The end of Old Covenant Israel was at hand.
All things written had to be fulfilled by the time
Jerusalem fell in AD 70 (see Luke 21:20-22).
Therefore, since Revelation is the opening of Daniel,
then it must have been fulfilled by the summer of
AD 70.
Our next time statement is found in Rev 21:12.
There, Jesus told John, "And, behold, I come quickly;
and my reward is with me, to give every man according
as his work shall be". Notice that Jesus did not say
that "when I come, I will come quickly". Rather,
He emphatically said that He was coming "quickly".
But He also said something else. He said that His
reward was with Him to give every man according
to his works. Now some state that this has not
happened yet. However, we must let Scripture
interpret Scripture, and turn to Matthew 16:27-28
and Mark 8:38-9:1 and Luke 9:26-27.
Jesus said the exact same thing in these three
verses that He did in Revelation 21 and in
Revelation 22:12. PLEASE COMPARE THIS VERSE
WITH MATTHEW 16:27-28, in which Jesus said
that He would "reward every man according to
his works". These are the exact same "comings"
with the exact same "rewards". But, Jesus also said
in these three verses, "There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:27-28)
Notice that Jesus tied His coming to the lives of His
disciples. He said that some of his listeners would
not die until He came. But to whom is He coming?
And what will be their reward? Jesus said that
the "coming" would be to the first century generation
of Israel (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32).
Daniel told us that the "rewards" would be that some
would be resurrected to "everlasting life" and others
to "everlasting contempt". Now, let's put these two
passages together. Jesus said He was coming and
He was going to reward each according to his works,
and that some of the disciples wouldn't die until
they saw this take place. Therefore, since all of
the disciples are dead, Jesus must have returned
and rewarded each according to his works.
Furthermore, in Revelation, He said the same thing,
therefore it must be fulfilled!
Conclusion
If a person doesn't believe the first three verses
of Revelation (i.e., the near expectation of the
events), neither will he believe the rest of the book.
For if a person is unwilling to accept the time
constraints of the text, the rest of the document
can mean anything that the reader desires.
If the Apostle John was banished to Patmos under
the reign of Nero, as the internal evidence indicates,
he wrote the book of Revelation about AD 68 or 69,
which was after the death of that emperor; but the
gospels and epistles some years later. One of the
oddest facts about the New Testament is that what
on any showing would appear to be the single most
datable and climactic event of the period (the fall
of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), is never once mentioned
as a passed fact.
The inscription to the book of Revelation, in the
Syrian version, first published by Deuteronomy Dieu,
in 1627, and, afterwards in the London Polyglot, is
the following, "The Revelation which God made to
John the evangelist, in the Island of Patmos, to which
he was banished by Nero Caesar."
This places it before the year of our Lord 69AD.
Not only this, but the earliest translation of
the Scriptures that we have (the Syriac version),
the same is said as the title of the Book of
Revelation.
This is a fact and Revelation was written BEFORE
the fall of Jerusalem and was about the fall of
Jerusalem!
May God bless you in this reading and may you
be honest and objective enough to study this,
instead of responding with your selfish desire
that it be all about YOU!
......
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
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| User: "Saint Zombie" |
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| Title: Re: When Was Revelation Written? |
23 May 2006 07:13:51 PM |
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On Tue, 23 May 2006 19:27:06 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
With the dating of Revelation, you establish the
true historical prospective. If you date it early, you
have its fulfillment in God's judgment on Israel. If
you date it late, you have every man's idea. So dating
plays a very important part in its interpretation.
What if the book of Genesis was written after the flood?
I guess that would mean the Genesis flood never existed.
Your logic is illogical. Dating revelation is illogical.
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| User: "sechumlib" |
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| Title: Re: When Was Revelation Written? |
23 May 2006 08:35:04 PM |
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On 2006-05-23 20:13:51 -0400, Saint Zombie <no.email@truth.org> said:
Your logic is illogical. Dating revelation is illogical.
Yup, doesn't matter when it was written. It's fiction regardless.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: When Was Revelation Written? |
23 May 2006 09:37:15 PM |
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On Wed, 24 May 2006 00:13:51 GMT, Saint Zombie
<no.email@truth.org> spake thusly:
On Tue, 23 May 2006 19:27:06 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
With the dating of Revelation, you establish the
true historical prospective. If you date it early, you
have its fulfillment in God's judgment on Israel. If
you date it late, you have every man's idea. So dating
plays a very important part in its interpretation.
What if the book of Genesis was written after the flood?
I guess that would mean the Genesis flood never existed.
Your logic is illogical. Dating revelation is illogical.
Your response was completely illogical. And as for
the dating of Revelation, we both know that you
had no problem claiming it was written later than
I showed it was written. You are now simply looking
for an excuse to be able to ignore the facts, because
your doctrine is more important to you than truth.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."
"Murder is unique in that it abolishes the party
it injures, so that society has to take the place
of the victim and on his behalf demand atonement
or grant forgiveness; it is the one crime in which
society has a direct interest." - W. H. Auden
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| User: "Saint Zombie" |
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| Title: Re: When Was Revelation Written? |
24 May 2006 06:51:21 PM |
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On Wed, 24 May 2006 02:37:15 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 24 May 2006 00:13:51 GMT, Saint Zombie
<no.email@truth.org> spake thusly:
On Tue, 23 May 2006 19:27:06 GMT, Pastor Dave
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
With the dating of Revelation, you establish the
true historical prospective. If you date it early, you
have its fulfillment in God's judgment on Israel. If
you date it late, you have every man's idea. So dating
plays a very important part in its interpretation.
What if the book of Genesis was written after the flood?
I guess that would mean the Genesis flood never existed.
Your logic is illogical. Dating revelation is illogical.
Your response was completely illogical. And as for
the dating of Revelation, we both know that you
had no problem claiming it was written later than
I showed it was written. You are now simply looking
for an excuse to be able to ignore the facts, because
your doctrine is more important to you than truth.
You present a conversation style which is aggressive and hostile.
I am telling you, it does not matter when Revelation was written.
You are telling me that it does matter. Tell me why it matters?
PS: The book of Revelation has nothing to with "my" doctrine.
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| User: "rogue" |
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| Title: Re: When Was Revelation Written? |
24 May 2006 06:07:41 AM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
With the dating of Revelation, you establish the
true historical prospective. If you date it early, you
have its fulfillment in God's judgment on Israel. If
you date it late, you have every man's idea. So dating
plays a very important part in its interpretation.
JERRY
So, are you the author, or did you steal it without attribution?
http://ecclesia.org/truth/revelation.html
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: When Was Revelation Written? |
24 May 2006 06:52:35 AM |
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On 24 May 2006 04:07:41 -0700, "rogue"
<rogue719@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
With the dating of Revelation, you establish the
true historical prospective. If you date it early, you
have its fulfillment in God's judgment on Israel. If
you date it late, you have every man's idea. So dating
plays a very important part in its interpretation.
JERRY
So, are you the author, or did you steal it without attribution?
http://ecclesia.org/truth/revelation.html
Actually, part of it is mine. But I have put the link
there many times. This isn't the first time I posted
these questions.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."
http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/vital/evolutio.html
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