"All creeds, doctrines and dogmas will reflect the worldview of those who
framed them. No creed drops out of heaven, fully written, complete with
paragraphing and punctuation. All creeds are shaped in debate and
represent the winning formula, some times having been forced to consensus
by something as human as political compromise.

The first creed of the Christian Church was just three words: Jesus is
Messiah. In time Messiah was translated Lord. When Constantine became
Emperor after the Battle of Milvian Bridge in 312 C.E. he sought to unify
his country under the Christian banner. This was why he called the Council
of Nicea in 325 C.E. to force the Christians to form a creed that would be
the basis of that unity. That is the Council that produced the Apostles'
Creed. But unity did not result and the Church discovered that Christians
could say the creeds verbatim while meaning very different things. The
creed had too much interpretive room in it to be the basis for unity. So
another Council was called to close out the loopholes. That is when the
Nicene Creed was created with all of its loophole closing clauses. Who is
Jesus? "God of Gods, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not
made, of one substance with the Father." Each phrase was designed to
diminish wiggle room and thus create unity and conformity.

Even that did not work so, much later, an even more convoluted faith
statement was adopted called the Athanasian Creed. The primary purpose of
each creed was to define who is part of the true faith and who were
outside the true faith. So every creed is a boundary maker.

I do not regard any creed, doctrine or dogma as eternal. I am not sure
that in the light of modern biblical scholarship we would have or could
have come to the same creedal conclusions and I wish we would go back and
reargue the issues of Nicea, Ephesus and Chalcedon.

I say the creeds regularly. I do not think of them as strait jackets to be
worn whether they fit or not. I view them rather as love songs that our
ancestors in faith sang to their God. Love songs like the creeds always
use language that cannot be literalized.

Try to view the creeds this way and see what a difference it makes.

(Spong)

When Constantine became
Emperor after the Battle of Milvian Bridge in 312 C.E. he sought to unify
his country under the Christian banner.

This was why he called the Council ofNiceain 325 C.E.

to force the Christians to form a creed that would be the basis of that unity.

That is the Council that produced the Apostles' Creed.

But unity did not result

and the Church discovered that Christians
could say the creeds verbatim while meaning very different things.

The creed had too much interpretive room in it to be the basis for unity.

So another Council was called to close out the loopholes. That is when the
Nicene Creed was created with all of its loophole closing clauses.

I do not regard any creed, doctrine or dogma as eternal. I am not sure
that in the light of modern biblical scholarship we would have or could
have come to the same creedal conclusions and I wish we would go back and
reargue the issues ofNicea, Ephesus and Chalcedon.

I say the creeds regularly. I do not think of them as strait jackets to be
worn whether they fit or not. I view them rather as love songs ...

(Spong)

Top posted for clarity


But then of course Vera

What is a "creed"



"All creeds, doctrines and dogmas will reflect the worldview of those
who framed them. No creed drops out of heaven, fully written,
complete with paragraphing and punctuation. All creeds are shaped in
debate and represent the winning formula, some times having been
forced to consensus by something as human as political compromise.

The first creed of the Christian Church was just three words: Jesus is
Messiah. In time Messiah was translated Lord. When Constantine became
Emperor after the Battle of Milvian Bridge in 312 C.E. he sought to
unify his country under the Christian banner. This was why he called
the Council of Nicea in 325 C.E. to force the Christians to form a
creed that would be the basis of that unity. That is the Council that
produced the Apostles' Creed. But unity did not result and the Church
discovered that Christians could say the creeds verbatim while
meaning very different things. The creed had too much interpretive
room in it to be the basis for unity. So another Council was called
to close out the loopholes. That is when the Nicene Creed was created
with all of its loophole closing clauses. Who is Jesus? "God of Gods,
Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not made, of one
substance with the Father." Each phrase was designed to diminish
wiggle room and thus create unity and conformity.

Even that did not work so, much later, an even more convoluted faith
statement was adopted called the Athanasian Creed. The primary
purpose of each creed was to define who is part of the true faith and
who were outside the true faith. So every creed is a boundary maker.

I do not regard any creed, doctrine or dogma as eternal. I am not sure
that in the light of modern biblical scholarship we would have or
could have come to the same creedal conclusions and I wish we would
go back and reargue the issues of Nicea, Ephesus and Chalcedon.

I say the creeds regularly. I do not think of them as strait jackets
to be worn whether they fit or not. I view them rather as love songs
that our ancestors in faith sang to their God. Love songs like the
creeds always use language that cannot be literalized.

Try to view the creeds this way and see what a difference it makes.



(Spong)





In article <5h7q40F3jhja8U1@mid.individual.net>, " ::: vera :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> wrote:

In news:53bta3harquiu0f0723ojkccpuagsm36jd@4ax.com,
Matt... <trdell1234@......gmail.com > typed:

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 04:20:10 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> wrote:

In news:f8l29712d6@enews2.newsguy.com,
Glenn <gamcclary@spiritone.com> typed:

john w <johnw wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:31:17 -0700, Glenn
<gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote:

john w <johnw wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:13:17 -0700, Glenn
<gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote:

False accusation is not from the spirit of God.

Nor did I falsely accuse. I said your extremely poor
attention span, and your inability to stay on topic (confusing
a discussion of the "war" you referred to with the War in
Iraq) indicates a potentially serious brain disorder.

Again you make false accusation. I did not refer to a war in a
specific place.

If you wish to support your false accusation, why not give the
quote? You don't give the Quote, because it is something YOU
MADE UP!!

If I mis-understood your mis-direct, I apologize. It is up to
YOU to prove your false allegation!

...and you reply with another false accusation, which demonstrates
that there is no love of Truth in you. 2 Thes 2:10-12.

Well that

"..and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being
lost, because they didn't receive the love of the truth, that they
might be saved. Because of this, God sends them a working of
error, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be
judged who didn't believe the truth, but had pleasure in
unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 WEB)
would surely apply to you, Glenn...

Or why do you think does the whole Church of God believe something
different from you?

Vera what arrogance. You are not the Whole church of God. Glenn
isn't either.

Apostle's Creed

Latin text
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem, Creatorem caeli et terrae. Et in
Iesum Christum, Filium Eius unicum, Dominum nostrum, qui conceptus
est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria Virgine, passus sub Pontio
Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus, descendit ad ínferos,
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis, ascendit ad caelos, sedet ad
dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis, inde venturus est iudicare vivos
et mortuos. Credo in Spiritum Sanctum, sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam,
sanctorum communionem, remissionem peccatorum, carnis
resurrectionem, vitam aeternam. Amen.


Greek text
Ancient text, not used in today's liturgy, here transcribed
monotonically (marking only the acute accents) instead of in correct
polytonic form (with grave and circumflex accents and rough and
smooth breathings)

??????? ??? ??ò? ?????? ????????????, ??????? ??????? ??? ???. ???
??? ?????? ?????ò?, ???? ????? ?ò? ????????, ?ò? ?????? ????, ?ò?
??????????? ?? ????????? ?????, ?????????? ?? ?????? ??? ????????,
??????? ??? ??????? ???????, ???????????, ???????, ??? ???????,
?????????? ??? ?? ????????, ?? ????? ????? ????????? ??ò ??? ??????,
????????? ??? ???? ????????, ??????????? ?? ????? ???? ??????
????????????, ??????? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???????. ???????
??? ?ò ?????? ?ò ?????, ????? ????????? ?????????, ????? ?????????,
?????? ????????, ?????? ?????????, ???? ???????. ????. (Triglot
Concordia, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 12)


English translations

The Roman Catholic Church
The English version in the Catechism of the Catholic Church[2]
maintains the traditional division of the Creed into twelve
articles, presenting it as follows:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

The Church of England
In the Church of England there are currently two authorized forms of
the creed: that of the Book of Common Prayer (1662) and that of
Common Worship (2000).

Book of Common Prayer

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and
earth; And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried,
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead,
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholick Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the life everlasting. Amen.
Common Worship


I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.



The United Methodist Church
The United Methodists commonly incorporate the Apostles' Creed into
their worship services. Many favor this interpretation as poetically
elegant[citation needed]. The version which is most often used is
located at #881 in the United Methodist Hymnal, one of their most
popular hymnals and one with a heritage to John Wesley, founder of
Methodism [3][4]. It is notable for omitting the line "he descended
into hell", but is otherwise very similar to the Book of Common
Prayer version. The 1989 Hymnal has both the traditional version and
the ecumenical version, which includes "he descended to the dead."

I believe in God the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth;
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord:
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
the third day he rose from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.
The United Methodist Hymnal also contains (at #882) what it terms the
"Ecumenical Version" of this creed -- a version which is identical to
that found in the Episcopal Church's current Book of Common Prayer.
This form of the Apostles' Creed can be found incorporated into the
Eucharistic and Baptismal Liturgies in the Hymnal and in The United
Methodist Book of Worship, and hence it is growing in popularity and
use.


Ecumenical version of the English Language Liturgical Consultation
The English Language Liturgical Consultation (ELLC) is an
international ecumenical group whose primary purpose is to provide
ecumenically accepted texts for those who use English in their
liturgy. In 1988 it produced a translation of the Apostles' Creed,
distinguished among other things by its avoidance of the word "his"
in relation to God. The text is as follows:[5]

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

False accusation is not of the Spirit of God.

Correct!

Yes correct

Matt

Glenn

::: vera :::

2 Peter 1:2
Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God
and of Jesus our Lord.

On Jul 29, 6:50 am, Glenn <gamccl...@spiritone.com> wrote:

If you are not willing to "contend for the Faith," perhaps it is because
you are not what you think you are. Jude 1-3.

Those who do not defend Truth do not Love Truth, and that is the truth.
2 Thes. 2:11-12.

Perhaps you looked at it, but didn't see it. Heb. 12:4.

WHEN WILL THIS WAR END?
There will be no peace between Truth and Lies. As long as lies make war
against Truth, there will be war. Love and hate can not live in the same
Heart, and lies, libel, ridicule and false accusation are hate.

'When they shall say, "Peace, Peace," then sudden destruction will come
upon them.'

"By Peace he shall destroy many."

You'e been just as guilty of bad behavior in Usenet as those you
accuse. If you're serious about seeing the "war" end, make the first
effort by working on yourself and behaving in a Christ-like manner.
You want to see the war stop? Set down your AK-47 first and then
worry about disarming the guy next to you (paraphrase of Matthew
7:3-5).

Jesus didn't come into a town or village for the first time shouting
at the top of His lungs that everyone in it were heretics. He showed
them love.