WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Bill"
Date:	26 Nov 2005 07:48:31 PM
Object:	WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?

Has ANY God spoke to you other than in your dreams? Have you ANY tangible,
OBJECTIVE evidence for the existence of ANY Gods? There are thousands of God
beliefs. Which, if any,
Is the real God and which are fakes?
Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent Gods
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
What distinguishes theology from mythology and astrology? All three are
founded on myth,
folklore and legend. Non are based on scientific knowledge and objective,
verifiable, reproducible evidence..
The Christian faith, and other faiths, are NOT founded on FAITH IN GOD but
faith in MEN.
The Bibles? The Bibles were created over 1,400 years before the invention
of the printing press. Written, interpreted, hand copied, modified and
recopied by hundreds of MEN over thousands of years by MEN. Inspired by
God? So MEN say. Which books are Scripture? The ones chosen by MEN. What do
they mean? What MEN say they mean. Dictated by God? Just the OPINION of
MEN. What is God telling you? Whatever MEN (ordinary selfish. self
promoting, errant humans) CLAIM he is telling you. The Bibles are folklore,
myth and contradictory impossible stories created by MEN. There is not one
shred of objective verifiable evidence that ANY of the Bibles are the word
of ANY God. In fact they are books of pure myth, legend and nonsense.
Of all the THOUSANDS of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which is the
real God and which are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real God?
Since no real God shows up in person, from the heavens or on International
TV to give us anything to believe in, the only option available to us is to
put our trust in what selfish errant MEN say and think about Gods. To put
one's faith in the stories, superstitions, myths and subjective thoughts and
feelings of ancient MEN is not faith in God, but faith in errant MEN. Faith
in what greedy avaricious MEN, whom we have never met and have NO objective
knowledge of their veracity and honesty. Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not
God! If there is a REAL God, why does he not appear to all mankind and show
he is the real God and that all the others are fakes? Man can accurately
communicate with almost the whole world via TV, the Internet, Newsprint, and
Radio Why does the real God not inform us in a clear unquestionable manner
that he is the REAL God and what are his wishes and demands? It appears that
ALL of them are fakes and inventions of selfish errant MEN.
The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED MAN, but quite
the opposite,
that MAN CREATED GODS.
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	28 Nov 2005 02:23:03 AM

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Bd8if.89009$ty1.35821@bignews1.bellsouth.net...

That's your very own personal choice. But I don't think you want to
bother studying and thinking, it's so much easier to just trash and flame
everything and everyone.

Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent Gods

That's absolutely true, for our Christian God is about absolutes of
quality, and we all know already, without you telling us, that absolutes
don't exist. Yet we all know what Character qualities are and most of us try
to live up to them. So God does both, exists and not exist. We know what a
loving and caring person is, and we know what an uncaring and hating person
is, regardless of whether any of them exist. The first is of God, the latter
is of Satan.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?

THAT god of yours doesn't exist, for He is not representative of any
principles and qualities. Toss him!!!!
.

User: "ZenIsWhen"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	28 Nov 2005 09:44:44 AM

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:1133166183.15c5b3035bb23becadfbace8212066fb@fe5.teranews.com...

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Bd8if.89009$ty1.35821@bignews1.bellsouth.net...

That's your very own personal choice. But I don't think you want to
bother studying and thinking, it's so much easier to just trash and flame
everything and everyone.

Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent Gods

That's absolutely true, for our Christian God is about absolutes of
quality, and we all know already, without you telling us, that absolutes
don't exist. Yet we all know what Character qualities are and most of us
try to live up to them. So God does both, exists and not exist. We know
what a loving and caring person is, and we know what an uncaring and
hating person is, regardless of whether any of them exist. The first is of
God, the latter is of Satan.

Only if you have evidence that a ghawd and satan exist - which you don't!
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	02 Dec 2005 05:03:07 AM

"ZenIsWhen" <here'slooking@youkid.com> wrote in message
news:11om9faiot7n547@corp.supernews.com...

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:1133166183.15c5b3035bb23becadfbace8212066fb@fe5.teranews.com...

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Bd8if.89009$ty1.35821@bignews1.bellsouth.net...

That's your very own personal choice. But I don't think you want to
bother studying and thinking, it's so much easier to just trash and flame
everything and everyone.

Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent Gods

That's absolutely true, for our Christian God is about absolutes of
quality, and we all know already, without you telling us, that absolutes
don't exist. Yet we all know what Character qualities are and most of us
try to live up to them. So God does both, exists and not exist. We know
what a loving and caring person is, and we know what an uncaring and
hating person is, regardless of whether any of them exist. The first is
of God, the latter is of Satan.

Only if you have evidence that a ghawd and satan exist - which you don't!

There you go again being mindless. Read what the author intended, not
prefer to believe what you prefer to be true. God and Satan are the
dichotomy of absolute good vs. absolute evil, which I just explained does
not exist, for absolutes don't exist, yet we all know absolutes of good and
evil when we see them? So they must exist after all, don't they?
.

User: "ZenIsWhen"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	02 Dec 2005 07:47:43 AM

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:1133521387.7ce28b80cca1748fb44dbe49692380c3@fe5.teranews.com...

"ZenIsWhen" <here'slooking@youkid.com> wrote in message
news:11om9faiot7n547@corp.supernews.com...

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:1133166183.15c5b3035bb23becadfbace8212066fb@fe5.teranews.com...

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Bd8if.89009$ty1.35821@bignews1.bellsouth.net...

That's your very own personal choice. But I don't think you want to
bother studying and thinking, it's so much easier to just trash and
flame everything and everyone.

Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent
Gods

That's absolutely true, for our Christian God is about absolutes of
quality, and we all know already, without you telling us, that absolutes
don't exist. Yet we all know what Character qualities are and most of us
try to live up to them. So God does both, exists and not exist. We know
what a loving and caring person is, and we know what an uncaring and
hating person is, regardless of whether any of them exist. The first is
of God, the latter is of Satan.

Only if you have evidence that a ghawd and satan exist - which you don't!

There you go again being mindless. Read what the author intended, not
prefer to believe what you prefer to be true. God and Satan are the
dichotomy of absolute good vs. absolute evil, which I just explained does
not exist, for absolutes don't exist, yet we all know absolutes of good
and evil when we see them? So they must exist after all, don't they?

So you're saying a large part of the bible is nothing more than analogies?
Then why do you push it as a belief system?
Good and evil exist ...............
The biblical "gawd" and satan - without supportive evidence - don't exist.
If you want to try to create a connection by distorting meanings - that's
your problem; not the "christian" truth!
.

User: "Your Name Here=Harvey"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	28 Nov 2005 02:59:49 PM

In article <1133166183.15c5b3035bb23becadfbace8212066fb@fe5.teranews.com>,
PastorFrank@christfirst.edu says...

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Bd8if.89009$ty1.35821@bignews1.bellsouth.net...

That's your very own personal choice. But I don't think you want to
bother studying and thinking, it's so much easier to just trash and flame
everything and everyone.

Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent Gods

THAT god of yours doesn't exist, for He is not representative of any
principles and qualities. Toss him!!!!

I think the real point is that people have used 'God' to absolve oneself
of personal responsibility - in that having committed a crime/sin - they
can ask God for forgiveness. And then think they have received it.
And believing in God and Satan, means you can say, after having committed
a crime, that Satan did it - by influencing me.
Whereas if you don't believe in God and/or Satan, you know always that you are
solely responsible for your own actions, and always will be.
Even though someone else or some other force, may be involved, in those
exceptional circumstances where it was, not you alone - but still, you did
the action yourself and have only yourself to blame.
And
if God is not all powerful, all knowing etc then why use the word God.
God the term is thoroughly all mixed up and not fully understood, in that
everyone has their own view who God is, what he is capable of, and not
capable of, etc etc. And so there will always be disagreement over all this.
Harvey
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	29 Nov 2005 04:35:12 PM

"Your Name Here=Harvey" <kiwi@ing.notin.aus> wrote in message
news:dmfr40$h2c$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...

In article <1133166183.15c5b3035bb23becadfbace8212066fb@fe5.teranews.com>,
PastorFrank@christfirst.edu says...

THAT god of yours doesn't exist, for He is not representative of any
principles and qualities. Toss him!!!!

You are quite right. "Blame"is what it's all about. There is no point
tin blaming nor punishing onself and waste time to do better next time.
Ask a drunkard why he drinks, and in most cases he will answer something
along these lines: My guilt is overwhelming and though I know my family and
God forgave me, I cannot forgive myself.
What i did deserves death and I want to kill myself with alcohol, for I am
nor worthy to live.
It's all a total waste of a life. That is why we submit to our Father
which is in heaven, and repent of our wrongdoings. He will treat us like a
naughty child is treated by his parents. Parental love prevents deserving
punishment through loving grace, and rather than being punished, we will be
forgiven and enjoined to do better next time.
Pastor Frank
THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind.
**Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
**Jesus in Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives,
but to save them.
**Jesus Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
**Jesus in Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge
him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
**Jesus in Mt:11:28-30 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am
gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my
yoke is easy and my burden is light."
.

User: "Doug Webber"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	28 Nov 2005 04:27:33 PM

Actually, you have pointed out one of the biggest errors in
Christianity - that one's sins got transferred to the cross, absolving
us of all sin. Jesus and his disciples called people to repentance, to
turn from your own sins and do good. The cross was simply the last
temptation that Jesus endured, after which the Holy Spirit could be
given to those who repent and live a life according to his will. Even
the New Testament states that we will all be judged according to our
works. Jesus rejected those who just believed in him, but did not do
what he said. Unfortunately, Martin Luther took the phrase "works of
the law" in Paul's writings to mean works of charity, instead of the
rituals of the Mosaic law, which is what he had intended. Scripture
teaches that we are solely responsible for our actions, but if we turn
from them, forgiveness is waiting for us. Sins do not get transferred
to another person (Ezekiel 18).
.

User: "Bill"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	29 Nov 2005 06:35:22 PM

"Doug Webber" <doug_webber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133216853.205053.101480@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

You sure like to believe in stories don't you!
.

User: "Bill Gamelson"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	27 Nov 2005 09:22:00 AM

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Bd8if.89009$ty1.35821@bignews1.bellsouth.net...

Has ANY God spoke to you other than in your dreams?

Yes, through church services. I've had many of questions answered by going
to church.

Have you ANY tangible, OBJECTIVE evidence for the existence of ANY Gods?

Yes. The world around me and the universe above.

There are thousands of God beliefs. Which, if any,

Is the real God and which are fakes?

Hard to say, but usually there is some way that false religions can easily
be exposed as false if they are studied and scrutinized.

Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent Gods

Logic and common sense comes from within ourselves. That's what got us into
trouble.

Why are you asking us dumb humans all these serious questions regarding God?
Do you expect someone to be able to answer that? If someone admits they
cannot answer that, will you use that lack of knowledge against them to
claim there is no God?

What distinguishes theology from mythology and astrology? All three are
founded on myth,

How do you know this? Do you have any objective verifyable evidence of
this?

folklore and legend. Non are based on scientific knowledge and objective,
verifiable, reproducible evidence..

Prove it.

The Christian faith, and other faiths, are NOT founded on FAITH IN GOD but
faith in MEN.

Sorry, I have faith in God.

The Bibles? The Bibles were created over 1,400 years before the invention
of the printing press. Written, interpreted, hand copied, modified and
recopied by hundreds of MEN over thousands of years by MEN. Inspired by
God? So MEN say. Which books are Scripture? The ones chosen by MEN. What
do they mean? What MEN say they mean. Dictated by God? Just the OPINION
of MEN. What is God telling you? Whatever MEN (ordinary selfish. self
promoting, errant humans) CLAIM he is telling you. The Bibles are
folklore, myth and contradictory impossible stories created by MEN. There
is not one shred of objective verifiable evidence that ANY of the Bibles
are the word of ANY God. In fact they are books of pure myth, legend and
nonsense.

There is no objective verifyable evidence that any of the Bible scriptures
are false.
Anyone who claims the Bible is a collection of myths is SIMPLY GUESSING!

Of all the THOUSANDS of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which is
the real God and which are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real
God?

There is only one God of creation. That is the real God. All others are
fakes.

Since no real God shows up in person, from the heavens or on International
TV to give us anything to believe in, the only option available to us is
to put our trust in what selfish errant MEN say and think about Gods.

You don't know what you're asking when you say you want God to appear in
front of you.

To put one's faith in the stories, superstitions, myths and subjective
thoughts and feelings of ancient MEN is not faith in God, but faith in
errant MEN.

You've already stated this.

Faith in what greedy avaricious MEN, whom we have never met and have NO
objective knowledge of their veracity and honesty.

What a lame way to take advantage of the dead.

Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God! If there is a REAL God, why does
he not appear to all mankind and show he is the real God and that all the
others are fakes?

Because we would all burn up. Remember how God had to appear to Moses?
Moses was quite the obedient man, but he still could not bear to face God
directly. This is why God had to appear to Moses as a burning bush, and
even then Moses had to turn his back away from the bush.

Man can accurately communicate with almost the whole world via TV, the
Internet, Newsprint, and Radio Why does the real God not inform us in a
clear unquestionable manner that he is the REAL God and what are his
wishes and demands?

Because it is by faith that we are saved.

It appears that ALL of them are fakes and inventions of selfish errant
MEN.

What you see may not be what is happening. - David Copperfield

The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED MAN, but
quite the opposite,

that MAN CREATED GODS.

If this is true, then when did man create this earth and this universe?

User: "Bill"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	27 Nov 2005 12:00:02 PM

"Bill Gamelson" <bill_gamelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Eakif.43312$2k5.8631@dukeread09...

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Bd8if.89009$ty1.35821@bignews1.bellsouth.net...

Has ANY God spoke to you other than in your dreams?

Yes, through church services. I've had many of questions answered by
going to church.

Have you ANY tangible, OBJECTIVE evidence for the existence of ANY Gods?

Yes. The world around me and the universe above.

Sorry, this is just evidence that but this just evidence that the world
around you and the Universe exist.
It is NOT ANY evidence that your god exists. P.S. the Universe is all around
you NOT just above.

There are thousands of God beliefs. Which, if any,

Is the real God and which are fakes?

Hard to say, but usually there is some way that false religions can easily
be exposed as false if they are studied and scrutinized.

Enlighten us. What of your studies shows which gods are fakes and which are
real?
Please include the evidence that supports your claims.

Logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any omnipotent Gods

Logic and common sense comes from within ourselves. That's what got us
into trouble.

How did logic and common sense get us into trouble. It appears that lack of
logic and common sense is what got you into
believing nonsense.

Why are you asking us dumb humans all these serious questions regarding
God? Do you expect someone to be able to answer that? If someone admits
they cannot answer that, will you use that lack of knowledge against them
to claim there is no God?

It certianly indicates they have NO objective verifiable evidence that their
god exists!

What distinguishes theology from mythology and astrology? All three are
founded on myth,

How do you know this? Do you have any objective verifyable evidence of
this?

Read your dictionary and the Bible. That is plenty of evidence.

folklore and legend. Non are based on scientific knowledge and objective,
verifiable, reproducible evidence..

Prove it.

Learn some logic. You can't prove a negative. There is NO OBJECTIVE
VERFIABLE
EVIDENCE for the existence of any gods therefore it is reasonable to
conclude there are non.

The Christian faith, and other faiths, are NOT founded on FAITH IN GOD
but faith in MEN.

Sorry, I have faith in God.

faith ( f�th) n. 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness
of a person, an idea, or a thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical
proof or material evidence.
In other words faith is not based on any factual evidence. It is purely
believing in something for which there is no evidence.
Dream on!

The Bibles? The Bibles were created over 1,400 years before the
invention of the printing press. Written, interpreted, hand copied,
modified and recopied by hundreds of MEN over thousands of years by MEN.
Inspired by God? So MEN say. Which books are Scripture? The ones chosen
by MEN. What do they mean? What MEN say they mean. Dictated by God? Just
the OPINION of MEN. What is God telling you? Whatever MEN (ordinary
selfish. self promoting, errant humans) CLAIM he is telling you. The
Bibles are folklore, myth and contradictory impossible stories created by
MEN. There is not one shred of objective verifiable evidence that ANY of
the Bibles are the word of ANY God. In fact they are books of pure myth,
legend and nonsense.

There is no objective verifyable evidence that any of the Bible scriptures
are false.
Anyone who claims the Bible is a collection of myths is SIMPLY GUESSING!

Read your Bible. Tales like Noeh and the Ark, the Creation story, Sodom and
Gomorah etc. are obviouslly impossible.
The Bibles are repleat with impossible tales, contradictions and pure
nonsense. You apparently have not read them.

Of all the THOUSANDS of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which is
the real God and which are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real
God?

There is only one God of creation. That is the real God. All others are
fakes.

And who might that be? And what objective verifiable evidence do you have to
support your opinion?

Since no real God shows up in person, from the heavens or on
International TV to give us anything to believe in, the only option
available to us is to put our trust in what selfish errant MEN say and
think about Gods.

You don't know what you're asking when you say you want God to appear in
front of you.

I know exactly what I am asking. I have no intention of living my life based
on myths and
legends claimed by errant men.

To put one's faith in the stories, superstitions, myths and subjective
thoughts and feelings of ancient MEN is not faith in God, but faith in
errant MEN.

You've already stated this.

Faith in what greedy avaricious MEN, whom we have never met and have NO
objective knowledge of their veracity and honesty.

What a lame way to take advantage of the dead.

How can anyone "take advantege of the dead"??? When their dead there dead!

Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God! If there is a REAL God, why does
he not appear to all mankind and show he is the real God and that all the
others are fakes?

Pure fable with no basis in fact.

Because it is by faith that we are saved.

Saved from what? Reality!

It appears that ALL of them are fakes and inventions of selfish errant
MEN.

What you see may not be what is happening. - David Copperfield

Duh! ???

The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED MAN, but
quite the opposite,

that MAN CREATED GODS.

If this is true, then when did man create this earth and this universe?

Where did I claim or state that man created the Earth and Universe?
It seems you have your head on crooked.

.

User: "Bill Gamelson"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	27 Nov 2005 12:24:42 PM

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:rsmif.32453$Y82.16739@bignews4.bellsouth.net...

Has ANY God spoke to you other than in your dreams?

Yes, through church services. I've had many of questions answered by
going to church.

Have you ANY tangible, OBJECTIVE evidence for the existence of ANY Gods?

That was not your question.

It is typical that you ask for evidence, yet fail to consider any evidence
presented. Would you like your life judged that way?

There are thousands of God beliefs. Which, if any,

Is the real God and which are fakes?

Hard to say, but usually there is some way that false religions can
easily be exposed as false if they are studied and scrutinized.

Enlighten us. What of your studies shows which gods are fakes and which
are real?
Please include the evidence that supports your claims.

Why is this so important to you? Think about that real hard. Don't give me
any of that "I'm reading this in alt.atheist" because you're not.

How did logic and common sense get us into trouble.

Why should I answer that question when you will only refute the answer
without any consideration?

It certianly indicates they have NO objective verifiable evidence that
their god exists!

It also indicates there is no objective verifiable evidence that God does
not exist. Now how long do you wish to continue playing this silly game?

What distinguishes theology from mythology and astrology? All three are
founded on myth,

How do you know this? Do you have any objective verifyable evidence of
this?

Read your dictionary and the Bible. That is plenty of evidence.

You mean a book from which there are no original texts?

Learn some logic. You can't prove a negative. There is NO OBJECTIVE
VERFIABLE
EVIDENCE for the existence of any gods therefore it is reasonable to
conclude there are non.

So why are you so upset and frantic about MY beliefs? Can you *reasonably*
answer that one?

faith ( f�th) n. 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or
trustworthiness of a person, an idea, or a thing. 2. Belief that does not
rest on logical proof or material evidence.

In other words faith is not based on any factual evidence. It is purely
believing in something for which there is no evidence.

That's correct, what's your point?

There is no objective verifyable evidence that any of the Bible
scriptures are false.
Anyone who claims the Bible is a collection of myths is SIMPLY GUESSING!

Read your Bible. Tales like Noeh and the Ark, the Creation story, Sodom
and Gomorah etc. are obviouslly impossible.

NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD !!!

The Bibles are repleat with impossible tales, contradictions and pure
nonsense. You apparently have not read them.

Yes I have. I have debunked virtually every single "confliction" that was
thrown my way. You got any to spare?

Of all the THOUSANDS of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which is
the real God and which are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real
God?

There is only one God of creation. That is the real God. All others are
fakes.

And who might that be? And what objective verifiable evidence do you have
to support your opinion?

Why do you keep dwelling on "objective verifyable evidence?" What exactly
is your goal with those words? There must be some reason you repeatedly use
this phrase. I'd like to know exactly what it is you're tryng to
accomplish.

Since no real God shows up in person, from the heavens or on
International TV to give us anything to believe in, the only option
available to us is to put our trust in what selfish errant MEN say and
think about Gods.

You don't know what you're asking when you say you want God to appear in
front of you.

I know exactly what I am asking.

No you don't. Believe me, you don't. *IF* God is real, then one of the
last things you want is for him to present himself in all his glory. It
would be like Captain Kirk beaming you to the surface of the sun.

I have no intention of living my life based on myths and
legends claimed by errant men.

So be it. Notice I'm not worried about your beliefs?

To put one's faith in the stories, superstitions, myths and subjective
thoughts and feelings of ancient MEN is not faith in God, but faith in
errant MEN.

You've already stated this.

Faith in what greedy avaricious MEN, whom we have never met and have NO
objective knowledge of their veracity and honesty.

What a lame way to take advantage of the dead.

How can anyone "take advantege of the dead"??? When their dead there dead!

Saying we have never met them so we can't believe what they have said,
knowing they are dead and this is the reason you say this. Lame.

Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God! If there is a REAL God, why does
he not appear to all mankind and show he is the real God and that all
the others are fakes?

Pure fable with no basis in fact.

You asked for an answer. I gave you a biblical answer. You expected more?

Because it is by faith that we are saved.

Saved from what? Reality!

You'll find out.
.

User: "Bill"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	27 Nov 2005 01:32:35 PM

"Bill Gamelson" <bill_gamelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:VRmif.43352$2k5.26484@dukeread09...

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:rsmif.32453$Y82.16739@bignews4.bellsouth.net...

Has ANY God spoke to you other than in your dreams?

Yes, through church services. I've had many of questions answered by
going to church.

Have you ANY tangible, OBJECTIVE evidence for the existence of ANY
Gods?

That was not your question.

Dodge and weave when you have no answer!

It is typical that you ask for evidence, yet fail to consider any evidence
presented. Would you like your life judged that way?

I considered it but pointed out that his was NO evidence for the existence
of your god.
"This just evidence that the world around you and the Universe exist.
It is NOT ANY evidence that your god exists. P.S. the Universe is all
around you NOT just above."
Read more perceptively.

There are thousands of God beliefs. Which, if any,

Is the real God and which are fakes?

Hard to say, but usually there is some way that false religions can
easily be exposed as false if they are studied and scrutinized.

Enlighten us. What of your studies shows which gods are fakes and which
are real?
Please include the evidence that supports your claims.

Why is this so important to you? Think about that real hard. Don't give
me any of that "I'm reading this in alt.atheist" because you're not.

Because it is important to KNOW whether or not your god exists.
I assume you consider your god as "important!

How did logic and common sense get us into trouble.

Why should I answer that question when you will only refute the answer
without any consideration?

How do you know this?
Why not be honest and just say "I can't answer that". Why all this dodging
and weaving?

It certianly indicates they have NO objective verifiable evidence that
their god exists!

It also indicates there is no objective verifiable evidence that God does
not exist. Now how long do you wish to continue playing this silly game?

The evidence for the nonexistence of anything is the lack of positive
objective verifiable
evidence for it's existence. Take a lesson in basic logic.

What distinguishes theology from mythology and astrology? All three are
founded on myth,

How do you know this? Do you have any objective verifyable evidence of
this?

Read your dictionary and the Bible. That is plenty of evidence.

You mean a book from which there are no original texts?

Learn some logic. You can't prove a negative. There is NO OBJECTIVE
VERFIABLE
EVIDENCE for the existence of any gods therefore it is reasonable to
conclude there are non.

So why are you so upset and frantic about MY beliefs? Can you
*reasonably* answer that one?

Yes, I'm not one bit frantic or upset about your silly beliefs. That' "your"
problem - not mine.
I only answer your nonsense to help others see the truth.

faith ( f�th) n. 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or
trustworthiness of a person, an idea, or a thing. 2. Belief that does not
rest on logical proof or material evidence.

In other words faith is not based on any factual evidence. It is purely
believing in something for which there is no evidence.

That's correct, what's your point?

Just to point out that your beliefs have NO foundation in facts.
Dream on if that makes you happy.

There is no objective verifyable evidence that any of the Bible
scriptures are false.
Anyone who claims the Bible is a collection of myths is SIMPLY GUESSING!

Read your Bible. Tales like Noeh and the Ark, the Creation story, Sodom
and Gomorah etc. are obviouslly impossible.

NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD !!!

I guess your right on this one. Anything a person can imagine is possible
with an imaginary god!

The Bibles are repleat with impossible tales, contradictions and pure
nonsense. You apparently have not read them.

Yes I have. I have debunked virtually every single "confliction" that was
thrown my way. You got any to spare?

There is NO objective verifiable evidence that any of the Bibles are the
word of ANY God. There is no objective verifiable evidence that the stories
in the Bibles are historical fact. In fact many of the stories in the Bibles
are obviously impossible and implausible nonsense.
There is NO objective evidence that the Bibles are the word of ANY God and
if they are he was truly a confused, erratic and inconsistent story teller.
There are no originals in existence. They are all hand copies and
modifications of copies of copies etc. with alterations, additions and
deletions to suite the transcribers motives. The printing press was not even
invented until the 15 Th. Century and the latest Bible copies date back
1,400 years and more before the invention of the printing press. The present
book of Bibles was assembled from numerous documents chosen by self
interested church leaders. They are not all or even most of the ancient
religious documents.
Here is a list of just the ENGLISH translations of these old and
unauthenticated Bibles. Which are the correct ones? And were the copies they
translated from accurate translations of the originals? NO originals exist.
NO ONE knows.
The evidence is that these Bibles, written and copied by over 150 men over a
period of over 2500 years are nothing but a combination of history, myths,
folklore and legends.
It is very likely that these ancient documents were doctored and altered to
enhance the power of the clerics of the time. Many of these writings come
from fraud, interpolations, myths and hearsay.
There is NO objective evidence that they are accurate history or the words
of any God.
There are eighteen different English translations alone:
New American Standard
New International Version
Amplified Bible
New Living Translation
King James Version
Contemporary English Version
New King James Version
21 St. Century King James Version
New International Version
American Standard Version
Holman Christian Version
New Life Version
Darby Translation
Young's Literal Translation
New International Readers Version
World English Bible
New Revised Standard Version
The Jerusalem Bible
Religion built on the stories in the Bibles is a religion built on myths and
quick sand.
There are a plentitude of different religious documents that proclaim the
validity of various Gods. Which, if any, are correct?
Major sacred texts and documents;
Baha'i Sacrid writtings
Life of Buddha - Dhammapada - Pali cannon
The Bible - Christian religious documents - 18 English versions alone.
No originals of the old or new testaments exist.
The Book of Mormon - Church of Latter Day Saints
The Analects - Confuscianism
The Eddas and Sagas - Icelandic beliefs
Wicca - Neo paganism of Greece and Rome over the centuries
Bhagavgita and Rig Veda - Hinduism
Qur'an - Islam
The Tanakh - Jewism
Tao-Te-Ching - Taoism
Nag Hammadi - Gnostics
Zhuan Falun - Falun Gong
Of all these different Gods and belief systems which is the true one, if
any, and which are fakes? Non of these documents are objective evidence.
They are all documents written, hand copied, modified and further copied,
over the centuries, by errant men with their own personal and selfish
motivations. There is no way to determine authenticity or accuracy. The
objective evidence is that they are a mixture of history, myth, folklore and
legends.
Man can directly communicate essentially with the whole world via TV, the
Internet, Mobile Phone and Radio. If there is a REAL God, why does he not
announce to the whole world, from his heaven, that he is the real God and
all the others are fakes. And tell us clearly and directly what he expects
from us instead of using hundreds of vague, ancient and contradictory
documents compiled by dozens of different religions.
The objective evidence is that God did not create man but that man created
Gods (and the Bibles).

Of all the THOUSANDS of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which is
the real God and which are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real
God?

There is only one God of creation. That is the real God. All others
are fakes.

And who might that be? And what objective verifiable evidence do you have
to support your opinion?

Why do you keep dwelling on "objective verifyable evidence?" What exactly
is your goal with those words? There must be some reason you repeatedly
use this phrase. I'd like to know exactly what it is you're tryng to
accomplish.

That's easy. A person should not believe in fairy tales or myths. They
should only base their life decissions on
objective verifiable evidence - not hearsay and myths. Beliveing in hearsay
and myths is the mental capoacity
of a child - not an adult.

Since no real God shows up in person, from the heavens or on
International TV to give us anything to believe in, the only option
available to us is to put our trust in what selfish errant MEN say and
think about Gods.

You don't know what you're asking when you say you want God to appear in
front of you.

I know exactly what I am asking.

Just in your silly illogical "opinion".

I have no intention of living my life based on myths and
legends claimed by errant men.

So be it. Notice I'm not worried about your beliefs?

That is quite obvious!

To put one's faith in the stories, superstitions, myths and subjective
thoughts and feelings of ancient MEN is not faith in God, but faith in
errant MEN.

You've already stated this.

Faith in what greedy avaricious MEN, whom we have never met and have
NO objective knowledge of their veracity and honesty.

What a lame way to take advantage of the dead.

How can anyone "take advantege of the dead"??? When their dead there
dead!

Saying we have never met them so we can't believe what they have said,
knowing they are dead and this is the reason you say this. Lame.

It is not that we have not met them it is that their claims in the Bibles
are contradictory,
implausible, impossible and quite apparently mostly myth. there is NO
objective verifiable
evidence for there authenticity.
I have never met Napolean but the vast quantity of consistent and logical
documents from hundreds
of known historians, both supporters and opponents, tell us about him which
supports his authenticity.
There is non of this to support the fables in the Bibles.

Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God! If there is a REAL God, why
does he not appear to all mankind and show he is the real God and that
all the others are fakes?

Because we would all burn up. Remember how God had to appear to Moses?
Moses was quite the obedient man, but he still could not bear to face
God directly. This is why God had to appear to Moses as a burning bush,
and even then Moses had to turn his back away from the bush.

Pure fable with no basis in fact.

You asked for an answer. I gave you a biblical answer. You expected
more?

Sorry but I don't believe in unlikely if not impossible fables. Do you still
believe in Santa Claus?

Because it is by faith that we are saved.

Saved from what? Reality!

You'll find out.

Wow, now you really frighten me!
.

User: "Bill Gamelson"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	27 Nov 2005 02:59:07 PM

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:iPnif.22523$i7.5912@bignews2.bellsouth.net...

Has ANY God spoke to you other than in your dreams?

Yes, through church services. I've had many of questions answered by
going to church.

Have you ANY tangible, OBJECTIVE evidence for the existence of ANY
Gods?

That was not your question.

Dodge and weave when you have no answer!

Why do you continually ask this question when you know the answer already?
Answer that and don't evade.

How did logic and common sense get us into trouble.

Why should I answer that question when you will only refute the answer
without any consideration?

How do you know this?

Name one subject you have agreed with me on.

Why not be honest and just say "I can't answer that". Why all this dodging
and weaving?

I have no objective verifyable evidence that any god exists, nor do you have
any objective verifyable evidence that any god does not exist.
Are you happy now?

The evidence for the nonexistence of anything is the lack of positive
objective verifiable
evidence for it's existence. Take a lesson in basic logic.

And why is it so important to you for me to take a lesson in basic
knowledge?

Learn some logic. You can't prove a negative. There is NO OBJECTIVE
VERFIABLE
EVIDENCE for the existence of any gods therefore it is reasonable to
conclude there are non.

Ok, so I'm being unreasonable. What's your point.

So why are you so upset and frantic about MY beliefs? Can you
*reasonably* answer that one?

Yes, I'm not one bit frantic or upset about your silly beliefs. That'
"your" problem - not mine.

You're making it your problem as well by participating in this stupid debate
that is going nowhere.

I only answer your nonsense to help others see the truth.

As I proclaim God to help others see the truth. You don't have a problem
with that, do you?

In other words faith is not based on any factual evidence. It is purely
believing in something for which there is no evidence.

That's correct, what's your point?

Just to point out that your beliefs have NO foundation in facts.

Ok, so my beliefs have no foundation in facts. You have that admission from
me. So now that you succeeded in your goal, are you happy now?

Dream on if that makes you happy.

Apparantly, it makes me happy and it greatly upsets you.

But none can be proven impossible.

There is NO objective evidence that the Bibles are the word of ANY God and
if they are he was truly a confused, erratic and inconsistent story
teller.

However, the Bible has never been proven false.

There are no originals in existence.

There are no original dictionaries in existance.
They are all hand copies and

modifications of copies of copies etc.

So are dictionaries.
with alterations, additions and

deletions to suite the transcribers motives.

So are dictionaries.

The printing press was not even invented until the 15 Th. Century and the
latest Bible copies date back 1,400 years and more before the invention of
the printing press.

So are dictionaries.

The present book of Bibles was assembled from numerous documents chosen by
self interested church leaders. They are not all or even most of the
ancient religious documents.

That doesn't show that any of the documents available are false.

Here is a list of just the ENGLISH translations of these old and
unauthenticated Bibles. Which are the correct ones? And were the copies
they translated from accurate translations of the originals? NO originals
exist. NO ONE knows.

Every Bible I have seen says the same thing.

The evidence is that these Bibles, written and copied by over 150 men over
a period of over 2500 years are nothing but a combination of history,
myths, folklore and legends.

And what evidence is this?

It is very likely that these ancient documents were doctored and altered
to enhance the power of the clerics of the time. Many of these writings
come from fraud, interpolations, myths and hearsay.

This has for a long time been tried to be proven and all attempts have
failed.

There is NO objective evidence that they are accurate history or the words
of any God.

So?

There are eighteen different English translations alone:

New American Standard

New International Version

Amplified Bible

New Living Translation

King James Version

Contemporary English Version

New King James Version

21 St. Century King James Version

New International Version

American Standard Version

Holman Christian Version

New Life Version

Darby Translation

Young's Literal Translation

New International Readers Version

World English Bible

New Revised Standard Version

The Jerusalem Bible

They all say the same thing.

Religion built on the stories in the Bibles is a religion built on myths
and quick sand.

There is no objective verifyable evidence of this.

There are a plentitude of different religious documents that proclaim the
validity of various Gods. Which, if any, are correct?

That's not my problem.

Major sacred texts and documents;

Baha'i Sacrid writtings

Life of Buddha - Dhammapada - Pali cannon

The Bible - Christian religious documents - 18 English versions alone.

No originals of the old or new testaments exist.

The Book of Mormon - Church of Latter Day Saints

The Analects - Confuscianism

The Eddas and Sagas - Icelandic beliefs

Wicca - Neo paganism of Greece and Rome over the centuries

Bhagavgita and Rig Veda - Hinduism

Qur'an - Islam

The Tanakh - Jewism

Tao-Te-Ching - Taoism

Nag Hammadi - Gnostics

Zhuan Falun - Falun Gong

Of all these different Gods and belief systems which is the true one, if
any, and which are fakes?

Not my problem.
Non of these documents are objective evidence.

They are all documents written, hand copied, modified and further copied,
over the centuries, by errant men with their own personal and selfish
motivations. There is no way to determine authenticity or accuracy. The
objective evidence is that they are a mixture of history, myth, folklore
and legends.

Man can directly communicate essentially with the whole world via TV, the
Internet, Mobile Phone and Radio. If there is a REAL God, why does he not
announce to the whole world, from his heaven, that he is the real God and
all the others are fakes.

I've answered that already. You didn't like my answer.

And tell us clearly and directly what he expects from us instead of using
hundreds of vague, ancient and contradictory documents compiled by dozens
of different religions.

He expect us to abide by his word.

The objective evidence is that God did not create man but that man created
Gods (and the Bibles).

Why do you keep dwelling on "objective verifyable evidence?" What
exactly is your goal with those words? There must be some reason you
repeatedly use this phrase. I'd like to know exactly what it is you're
tryng to accomplish.

That's easy. A person should not believe in fairy tales or myths. They
should only base their life decissions on
objective verifiable evidence - not hearsay and myths. Beliveing in
hearsay and myths is the mental capoacity
of a child - not an adult.

But why are you worried about what I believe in? That is the question that
you kepp dodging.

You don't know what you're asking when you say you want God to appear
in front of you.

I know exactly what I am asking.

Just in your silly illogical "opinion".

Not at all. Notice I said *IF* God is real.

I have no intention of living my life based on myths and
legends claimed by errant men.

So be it. Notice I'm not worried about your beliefs?

That is quite obvious!

So why are you so worried about mine?

You know, I think you've said that more times than John Edwards mentioned
Halliburton. Believe me, it's not going anywhere.

There is non of this to support the fables in the Bibles.

Read above response.

Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God! If there is a REAL God, why
does he not appear to all mankind and show he is the real God and that
all the others are fakes?

I've answered that already. You didn't like my answer.

Because we would all burn up. Remember how God had to appear to Moses?
Moses was quite the obedient man, but he still could not bear to face
God directly. This is why God had to appear to Moses as a burning
bush, and even then Moses had to turn his back away from the bush.

Pure fable with no basis in fact.

But then you'll ask me this question again in no time at all.

You asked for an answer. I gave you a biblical answer. You expected
more?

Sorry but I don't believe in unlikely if not impossible fables. Do you
still believe in Santa Claus?

Yes. He was a real person who lived in Germany and died a long time ago.
The legend continues to this day.

Man can accurately communicate with almost the whole world via TV, the
Internet, Newsprint, and Radio Why does the real God not inform us in
a clear unquestionable manner that he is the REAL God and what are his
wishes and demands?

Because it is by faith that we are saved.

Saved from what? Reality!

You'll find out.

Wow, now you really frighten me!

Now you see, exactly two responses up, you ask me this question. I answered
it and you didn't like my answer. Now you are asking me again two responses
up. I knew you would. I've got you pegged!
.

User: "Bill"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	27 Nov 2005 07:38:41 PM

"Bill Gamelson" <bill_gamelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:J6pif.43390$2k5.34871@dukeread09...

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:iPnif.22523$i7.5912@bignews2.bellsouth.net...

Has ANY God spoke to you other than in your dreams?

Yes, through church services. I've had many of questions answered by
going to church.

Have you ANY tangible, OBJECTIVE evidence for the existence of ANY
Gods?

That was not your question.

Dodge and weave when you have no answer!

Why do you continually ask this question when you know the answer already?
Answer that and don't evade.

What question???

How did logic and common sense get us into trouble.

Why should I answer that question when you will only refute the answer
without any consideration?

How do you know this?

Name one subject you have agreed with me on.

Why don't you answer my question above? I can't agree or disagree with you
when you can't answer the question!

Why not be honest and just say "I can't answer that". Why all this
dodging and weaving?

I have no objective verifyable evidence that any god exists, nor do you
have any objective verifyable evidence that any god does not exist.

Are you happy now?

The evidence for the nonexistence of anything is the lack of positive
objective verifiable
evidence for it's existence. Take a lesson in basic logic.

And why is it so important to you for me to take a lesson in basic
knowledge?

Learn some logic. You can't prove a negative. There is NO OBJECTIVE
VERFIABLE
EVIDENCE for the existence of any gods therefore it is reasonable to
conclude there are non.

Ok, so I'm being unreasonable. What's your point.

So why are you so upset and frantic about MY beliefs? Can you
*reasonably* answer that one?

Yes, I'm not one bit frantic or upset about your silly beliefs. That'
"your" problem - not mine.

You're making it your problem as well by participating in this stupid
debate that is going nowhere.

I only answer your nonsense to help others see the truth.

As I proclaim God to help others see the truth. You don't have a problem
with that, do you?

In other words faith is not based on any factual evidence. It is purely
believing in something for which there is no evidence.

That's correct, what's your point?

Just to point out that your beliefs have NO foundation in facts.

Ok, so my beliefs have no foundation in facts. You have that admission
from me. So now that you succeeded in your goal, are you happy now?

Dream on if that makes you happy.

Apparantly, it makes me happy and it greatly upsets you.

But none can be proven impossible.

There is NO objective evidence that the Bibles are the word of ANY God
and if they are he was truly a confused, erratic and inconsistent story
teller.

However, the Bible has never been proven false.

Just take a few stories as an examples. The story of Noah and the ARC is
patently impossible and redicuous.
the story of creation is equally rediculous. The evidence is that the bibles
are nothing but myths, fables and impossible claims.

There are no originals in existence.

There are no original dictionaries in existance.

Distionaries do not claim historical events ediot.

They are all hand copies and

modifications of copies of copies etc.

So are dictionaries.

with alterations, additions and

deletions to suite the transcribers motives.

So are dictionaries.

The printing press was not even invented until the 15 Th. Century and the
latest Bible copies date back 1,400 years and more before the invention
of the printing press.

So are dictionaries.

The present book of Bibles was assembled from numerous documents chosen
by self interested church leaders. They are not all or even most of the
ancient religious documents.

That doesn't show that any of the documents available are false.

It sure doesn't justify considering them as accurate history!

Every Bible I have seen says the same thing.

The evidence is that these Bibles, written and copied by over 150 men
over a period of over 2500 years are nothing but a combination of
history, myths, folklore and legends.

And what evidence is this?

Evidence that the Bibles have no evidence as to their authenticity.

It is very likely that these ancient documents were doctored and altered
to enhance the power of the clerics of the time. Many of these writings
come from fraud, interpolations, myths and hearsay.

This has for a long time been tried to be proven and all attempts have
failed.

What are the failures?

There is NO objective evidence that they are accurate history or the
words of any God.

So?

They all say the same thing.

Religion built on the stories in the Bibles is a religion built on myths
and quick sand.

There is no objective verifyable evidence of this.

There are a plentitude of different religious documents that proclaim the
validity of various Gods. Which, if any, are correct?

That's not my problem.

Not my problem.

Non of these documents are objective evidence.

I've answered that already. You didn't like my answer.

And tell us clearly and directly what he expects from us instead of using
hundreds of vague, ancient and contradictory documents compiled by dozens
of different religions.

He expect us to abide by his word.

The objective evidence is that God did not create man but that man
created Gods (and the Bibles).

Why do you keep dwelling on "objective verifyable evidence?" What
exactly is your goal with those words? There must be some reason you
repeatedly use this phrase. I'd like to know exactly what it is you're
tryng to accomplish.

That's easy. A person should not believe in fairy tales or myths. They
should only base their life decissions on
objective verifiable evidence - not hearsay and myths. Beliveing in
hearsay and myths is the mental capoacity
of a child - not an adult.

But why are you worried about what I believe in? That is the question
that you kepp dodging.

You don't know what you're asking when you say you want God to appear
in front of you.

I know exactly what I am asking.

Just in your silly illogical "opinion".

Not at all. Notice I said *IF* God is real.

I have no intention of living my life based on myths and
legends claimed by errant men.

So be it. Notice I'm not worried about your beliefs?

That is quite obvious!

So why are you so worried about mine?

You know, I think you've said that more times than John Edwards mentioned
Halliburton. Believe me, it's not going anywhere.

There is non of this to support the fables in the Bibles.

Read above response.

Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God! If there is a REAL God, why
does he not appear to all mankind and show he is the real God and
that all the others are fakes?

I've answered that already. You didn't like my answer.

Because we would all burn up. Remember how God had to appear to
Moses? Moses was quite the obedient man, but he still could not bear
to face God directly. This is why God had to appear to Moses as a
burning bush, and even then Moses had to turn his back away from the
bush.

Pure fable with no basis in fact.

But then you'll ask me this question again in no time at all.

You asked for an answer. I gave you a biblical answer. You expected
more?

Sorry but I don't believe in unlikely if not impossible fables. Do you
still believe in Santa Claus?

Yes. He was a real person who lived in Germany and died a long time ago.
The legend continues to this day.

Man can accurately communicate with almost the whole world via TV,
the Internet, Newsprint, and Radio Why does the real God not inform
us in a clear unquestionable manner that he is the REAL God and what
are his wishes and demands?

Because it is by faith that we are saved.

Saved from what? Reality!

You'll find out.

Wow, now you really frighten me!

Now you see, exactly two responses up, you ask me this question. I
answered it and you didn't like my answer. Now you are asking me again
two responses up. I knew you would. I've got you pegged!

User: "Bill Gamelson"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	27 Nov 2005 07:52:25 PM

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:qatif.11759$KP1.10710@bignews5.bellsouth.net...

"Bill Gamelson" <bill_gamelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:J6pif.43390$2k5.34871@dukeread09...

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:iPnif.22523$i7.5912@bignews2.bellsouth.net...

Has ANY God spoke to you other than in your dreams?

Yes, through church services. I've had many of questions answered by
going to church.

Have you ANY tangible, OBJECTIVE evidence for the existence of ANY
Gods?

That was not your question.

Dodge and weave when you have no answer!

Why do you continually ask this question when you know the answer
already? Answer that and don't evade.

What question???

Troll.
[plonk]
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	01 Dec 2005 05:45:31 AM

"Bill Gamelson" <bill_gamelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:J6pif.43390$2k5.34871@dukeread09...

"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:iPnif.22523$i7.5912@bignews2.bellsouth.net...

Has ANY God spoke to you other than in your dreams?

Yes, through church services. I've had many of questions answered by
going to church.

Have you ANY tangible, OBJECTIVE evidence for the existence of ANY
Gods?

That was not your question.

Dodge and weave when you have no answer!

Why do you continually ask this question when you know the answer already?
Answer that and don't evade.

How did logic and common sense get us into trouble.

Why should I answer that question when you will only refute the answer
without any consideration?

How do you know this?

Name one subject you have agreed with me on.

Why not be honest and just say "I can't answer that". Why all this
dodging and weaving?

I have no objective verifyable evidence that any god exists, nor do you
have any objective verifyable evidence that any god does not exist.
Are you happy now?

We Christians have lots of evidence that our God exists, for our
Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in its
perfection in Jesus Christ laying down His precious and wholly innocent life
for us sinners on the cross of Calvary.
Thus, Christians not only know their God, but have seen Him in action.
See below Biblical references
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am
in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
.

User: "Doug Webber"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	29 Nov 2005 11:01:03 AM

Bill wrote:

faith ( f=B3th) n. 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworth=

iness

of a person, an idea, or a thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical
proof or material evidence.

In other words faith is not based on any factual evidence. It is purely
believing in something for which there is no evidence.

I disagree slightly with this definition of faith. Christian faith
does rest on factual evidence, but the interpretation of that factual
evidence that is accepted on faith comes from revelation. Evidence
that the revelation is true comes from prophecies which are fulfilled
many centuries later. Faith in a higher sense means nothing but Truth,
and a life according to that Truth.

There is no objective verifyable evidence that any of the Bible scriptu=

res

are false.
Anyone who claims the Bible is a collection of myths is SIMPLY GUESSING!

Read your Bible. Tales like Noeh and the Ark, the Creation story, Sodom a=

Gomorah etc. are obviouslly impossible.
The Bibles are repleat with impossible tales, contradictions and pure
nonsense. You apparently have not read them.

For once, you have started to mention specific examples. The majority
of the people who read the Bible read it in a literal sense, without
understanding that each letter, word and paragraph has a spiritual
meaning. There is an allegorical to scripture, even the historical
portions. For example, the story of Abraham (which means father),
Isaac (the son) and Jacob, with his 12 sons, is an allegory for Jesus
and his 12 disciples.
But let us stick to the examples you have mentioned. As for the
creation story, unfortunately many who read the Bible interpret it that
everything was created 6000 years ago. Anyone who knows a bit of
science or history knows this is false. But does the Bible actually
say that? No. Here is what it says:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth
was without form, and void...
But Hebrew verbs have no tense. So it can also say:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth
BECAME without form, and void...
- showing a gap between the creation of everything, and an event
concerning the earth after it had suffered from a cataclysmic disaster.
In the spiritual sense, the seven days of creation represent seven
states in man, as he progressed spiritually, and God creates a new man
in him. There is also a "sevenness", or seven states, in many areas of
creation itself. I would recommend the book, "The Reflexive Universe"
by Arthur Young.
As for Noah and the Ark, scripture states that the whole "world" was
flooded. This does not necessarily mean a global wide flood, as the
word can be used to represent a region. And just recently,
archaeologists have discovered evidence that the area beneath the Black
Sea was once inhabitated, but was destroyed by a flood around 5500 B.C.
when waters poured in from what we now know as the Bosphorus. If it
indeed occurred then that is looking like the most likely explanation.
But in my opinion the first 11 chapters are only semi-historical, and
there is a spiritual meaning behind the story of Noah and his ark.
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is definitely historical, and there are
web sites pointing to some evidence of that. But remember, our
knowledge of past history is limited. There was a time when critics
said that the kings of Babylon and Assyria mentioned in the Bible were
all fictional. Lo and behold, when archaeologists started digging in
the Middle East, cuneiform tablets confirmed their existence, and it
matched Biblical chronology. But instead of looking at the definite
positive evidence showing that scripture is true, you are only
selecting the stories which have not been confirmed yet according to
our present knowledge. And again, what makes scripture divinely
inspired in the first place is the spiritual meaning behind the literal
words, its not in the literal stories themselves.
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	29 Nov 2005 11:38:10 AM

Doug Webber wrote:

Bill wrote:

faith ( f�th) n. 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness
of a person, an idea, or a thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical
proof or material evidence.

In other words faith is not based on any factual evidence. It is purely
believing in something for which there is no evidence.

I disagree slightly with this definition of faith. Christian faith
does rest on factual evidence,

===>WHAT "factual evidence"???
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: WHICH IS THE REAL GOD?	29 Nov 2005 02:52:49 PM

On 29 Nov 2005 09:01:03 -0800, "Doug Webber"
<doug_webber@yahoo.com> spake thusly:

Bill wrote:

faith ( f�th) n. 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness
of a person, an idea, or a thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical
proof or material evidence.

In other words faith is not based on any factual evidence. It is purely
believing in something for which there is no evidence.

I disagree slightly with this definition of faith. Christian faith
does rest on factual evidence,

Faith is evidence.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders
obtained a good report. Through faith we understand
that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so
that things which are seen were not made of things
which do appear." - Hebrews 11:1-3
--
Pastor Dave
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