Who Are God's Chosen People?

Religions > Bible > Who Are God's Chosen People?

LINK TO THIS PAGE

rating : 0 | 0

Page 1 of 2

Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Pastor Dave"
Date:	08 Mar 2007 03:15:56 PM
Object:	Who Are God's Chosen People?

Who Are God's Chosen People?
By Scott Kessler
12/2006
Preterists are often accused of holding to “Replacement
Theology”. The truth of the matter is that we do no such
thing. Replacement theology is a misnomer. No one has
been “replaced” in regard to the blessings of the Covenant.
The church is “Israel” (Galatians 6:16) and always has been,
even in the Old Testament.
"Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?
This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses
the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:22-23)
This past week, I was treated to a wonderful slide show
presentation by a man who recently visited Israel. The
pictures were beautiful. It must have been thrilling to
see the sights and walk the paths that Jesus himself may
have seen and walked. However, the speaker, obviously
a premillennial dispensationalist, was obsessed with the
Eastern gate in his presentation, telling how Christ will
once again pass through this gate to set up His “millennial”
kingdom. For “Jerusalem”, he said, “is the city that God
loves. They are his chosen people”. The last slide was an
encouragement for us as Christians to “Pray for the peace
of Jerusalem” (Psalms 122:6).
Actually, the complete verse of Psalms 122:6 says, “Pray for
the peace of Jerusalem! May they be secure who love you!”
This begs the question as to the identity of Jerusalem, as
well as “God’s chosen people”. The New Testament gives
us two Jerusalems, the earthly Jerusalem, the cursed fig tree
(Matthew 21:18-21) which “is in slavery with her children”
(Galatians 4:25), and the new, heavenly Jerusalem, which
is the free and the mother of all the saints (Galatians 4:26,
Hebrews 12:22-24, Revelation 3:12, Revelation 21:1-10).
Which Jerusalem can rightly be described as those who love
God? The answer to that question has huge ramifications,
both theologically and politically.
I think that everyone is aware of the political ramifications
of Christian Zionism, so I’ll focus here on the theological
issues. Should Christians bother to send missionaries to
Israel? Believe it or not, many notable Christian leaders
have discouraged believers from trying to convert Judaists.
John Hagee, the poster boy of Christian Zionism, says that
trying to convert Jews is a "waste of time”.
“Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha'i, needs to believe
in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a
covenant with God that has never been replaced with
Christianity… The Jewish people have a relationship to God
through the law of God as given through Moses… I believe
that every Gentile person can only come to God through the
cross of Christ. I believe that every Jewish person who lives
in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has
a relationship with God and will come to redemption.”
(Julia Duin, "San Antonio Fundamentalist Battles
Anti-Semitism," The Houston Chronicle, 30 April 1988).
Showing who he believes to be Sovereign, John Hagee writes,
“We support Israel because all other nations were created
by an act of men, but Israel was created by an act of God.”
(See Supporting Israel). Hagee goes on to say that “The
Royal Land Grant that was given to Abraham and his seed
through Isaac and Jacob with an everlasting and unconditional
covenant.”. He seems to forget that the Scriptures plainly
teach that “…by works of the law no human being will be
justified in his sight…” (Romans 3:20). He seems to forget
Jesus’ own words concerning the Real Estate in the
New Covenant.
“The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are
a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain,
but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people
ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe
me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain
nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship
what you do not know; we worship what we know, for
salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and
is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the
Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such
people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship
him must worship in spirit and truth."” (John 4:19-24).
Hagee also seems to forget that God’s covenant with fleshly
Israel was not unconditional. It required their obedience
(Deuteronomy 28:15, 63). Hagee ignores that fact that
the Abrahamic Covenant was already fulfilled, both physically
(Joshua 23:14) and Spiritually (Galatians 3:8).
More importantly, however, is the issue dealing with the
identity of God and His New Covenant. David Klinghoffer
writes, “Both Jews and Christians worship the same God
and both have a place, for believers, in God's scheme of
things. Jews are the people of the Covenant while Christians
approach God through Jesus.” What is this covenant that
Klinghoffer is speaking of? It certainly isn’t the New
Covenant, to which Jesus is the sole mediator (1 Timothy 2:5;
Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 12:24). It is foolishness to recognize
Judaism as a religion of the covenant. There is no covenant
without Christ, as even the Old Testament saints “all ate the
same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them,
and the Rock was Christ.” (1 Corinthians 10:3-4). So how
has God kept His promises to “His chosen people”?
The Identity of Israel
The common Dispensationalist cry is “the Jews are God’s
Chosen people”. That begs the question, “just what exactly
is a “Jew”?” Is it a nation, a race, or a religion? Are
American Jews in covenant with God? What about European
proselytes living is Israel? How about Hebrews who practice
Buddhism? Dispensational Zionists have a difficult time
answering that question consistently. Covenantalists,
however, can take their definition of Israel straight
from Scripture.
God promised Abraham that he would make of him a
“great nation” (Genesis 12:2), and that “in thy seed shall
all the nations of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 22:18).
This nation was to be a “holy nation” (Exodus 19:6).
What does it mean to be a Holy Nation? Is a nation holy
simply because the DNA of its citizens matches Abraham’s
(which, by the way, would eliminate most of the people
living in modern day Israel)? Does the term “holy nation”
fit some godless country that exists in the Middle East
founded by the United Nations in 1948? Hardly. God
never saved anyone based in his or her genealogy, in either
the Old or New Testament. If that were the case, then Esau
(whom God hated – Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13) and Ishmael
would have a claim on God’s Covenant Blessings. So would
King Saul, Judas Iscariot, and the modern day Palestinians.
Likewise, Ruth (a Moabite), Rahab (a Canaanite), and Urriah
(the Hittite), (two of which were Christ’s ancestors) would
never have experienced sanctification. Physical circumcision
made one a part of God’s visible church, but in the light of
eternity, profits nothing (Galatians 5:6).
A holy nation is set apart by God based on obedience to
His Covenant. In the Old Testament, a Hebrew who was
disobedient was to be “cut off from the congregation of
Israel” (Exodus 12:19). Does this mean that God changed
the person’s genetic code so that he was no longer a Hebrew?
Of course not. It means that he was no longer part of the
“holy nation”, God’s visible church here on earth. The same
is true in the New Testament (ex. 1 Corinthians 5:1-12).
Sadly, the judicial powers of the modern church are almost
non-existent.
In the same Exodus passage, God tells Moses “And when a
stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to
the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him
come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the
land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. One law
shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells
among you." (Exodus 12:48-49). Again, God does not make
this person’s DNA match that of Abraham, but instead sets
him apart “as a native of the land” in His holy nation. Thus,
even in the Old Testament, God never considered anyone
a “Jew” based on race alone. Both Jew and Gentiles were
to have “one law”.
This is even more obvious the New Testament. The Pharisees
took pride in their linage, but were not members of God’s
“holy nation”. John the Baptist gave them this warning.
“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming
to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned
you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits
worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves,
"We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God
is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees.
Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is
cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matthew 3:7-10).
The Judaists even bragged to Jesus about their heritage,
proclaiming “Abraham is our father” (John 8:39). But
Jesus was very clear with His response. Contrary to popular
dispensational belief, Judaism is not “Old Testament
religion”, but a demon-inspired, Talmudic cult. When the
Pharisees rejected Christ, they rejected Moses (John 5:46).
Furthermore, contrary to the above claims of David
Klinghoffer, Judaists and Christians do NOT worship the
same God. The god of Judaism is the Devil (John 8:44).
The Christian God is the only true God, and the Christ of
the Covenant is the only mediator (1 Timothy 2:5 – See
August’s blog “Only One Mediator”). Those who reject Christ
are neither Abraham’s children nor God’s (John 8:39-42).
As Christ rejecters, they are no longer “God’s Chosen People”.
Jesus told them, "… the kingdom of God will be taken from
you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.” (Matthew
21:43). This nation is His “holy nation”, the Church of Jesus
Christ, the new “Israel of God”, and the Galatian church was
so called (Galatians 6:16). Paul, a Hebrew of Hebrews
(Philippians 3:5), was clear “that it is those of faith who
are the sons of Abraham.” (Galatians 3:7).
The Church is God’s “Israel”
Preterists are often accused of hold to “Replacement
Theology”. The truth of the matter is that we do no such
thing. Replacement theology is a misnomer. No one has
been “replaced” in regard to the blessings of the Covenant.
The church is “Israel” (Galatians 6:16), and always has been,
even in the Old Testament.
No one can deny Paul’s tender feelings toward his own
countrymen. He is clearly dismayed over their stubbornness,
and even wishes that he could sacrifice his own soul for their
conversion (Romans 9:3). But then Paul clearly contrasts
God’s Israel from “Israel after the flesh”. He writes
“…for they are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Romans 9:6),
“But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and whose circumcision
is that of the heart…” (Romans 2:29). “And if you are
Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according
to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29). In Christ, all ethnic,
cultural, economic and generational walls have been removed.
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor
free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in
Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). If Jesus Christ removed these
barriers, who are we to try and build them back up?
While the modern dispensational church keeps it’s eyes
glued to the Middle East, awaiting some sort of Theological
Extravaganza, Paul clarified that the Abrahamic Covenant
(Genesis 22:18) is being fulfilled through the church,
(and the Galatian Gentile church at that). “And the
Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by
faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying,
"In you all the nations shall be blessed.” (Galatians 3:8).
God’s everlasting Covenant is not concerned about a 10-mile
strip of real estate in the Middle East. As Christians, we
are members of the New, Heavenly Jerusalem which is
the one and only bride of Christ, and the mother of us
all (Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 12:22).
So what should be the mindset of Christians toward Israel?
Politically speaking Israel is a strong ally of the United
States and of western society in general, therefore, they have
my support, as long as they aren’t the aggressors of conflict.
However, we must make it clear that, theologically speaking,
Judaism and Christianity have nothing in common. We need
not attempt any ecumenical alliances with Judaists,
“…For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness?
Or what fellowship has light with darkness?” (2 Corinthians
6:14). We are commanded by our Lord to make disciples
of ALL nations (Matthew 28:18-20), and that includes
Judaizers, who cannot be saved apart from Christ, no matter
what John Hagee says. Therefore, while my dispensationalists
friends are praying for the peace of Jerusalem, my prayer is
different. I’m praying for the conversion of Jerusalem.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/kessler-scott_07_01.html
--
It is a sad commentary, when people sift the Bible through
their doctrines and their doctrines become absolute in
their minds and the Bible is manipulated and twisted up
like a pretzel to make it match their doctrines. This
happens because so many believe that the Bible is useless,
if it isn't all about them today. They deny that, but
why is it then, that their supposed fulfillments of Bible
prophecies that they preach, always end up being about
whatever is in the news lately and the news always
becomes, "The fulfillment of Bible prophecies right
before our very eyes!". And that folks, is Futurism!
Selfishness, conceit, ego, arrogance and vanity! (:
.

User: "Suzanne"
Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People?	16 Mar 2007 12:43:53 PM

"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:88v0v25gbm045pt47vm668f13v2e97e98b@4ax.com...

Who Are God's Chosen People?

By Scott Kessler
12/2006

Preterists are often accused of holding to "Replacement
Theology". The truth of the matter is that we do no such
thing. Replacement theology is a misnomer. No one has
been "replaced" in regard to the blessings of the Covenant.
The church is "Israel" (Galatians 6:16) and always has been,
even in the Old Testament.

"Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?
This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses
the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:22-23)

This past week, I was treated to a wonderful slide show
presentation by a man who recently visited Israel. The
pictures were beautiful. It must have been thrilling to
see the sights and walk the paths that Jesus himself may
have seen and walked. However, the speaker, obviously
a premillennial dispensationalist, was obsessed with the
Eastern gate in his presentation, telling how Christ will
once again pass through this gate to set up His "millennial"
kingdom. For "Jerusalem", he said, "is the city that God
loves. They are his chosen people". The last slide was an
encouragement for us as Christians to "Pray for the peace
of Jerusalem" (Psalms 122:6).

Actually, the complete verse of Psalms 122:6 says, "Pray for
the peace of Jerusalem! May they be secure who love you!"
This begs the question as to the identity of Jerusalem, as
well as "God's chosen people". The New Testament gives
us two Jerusalems, the earthly Jerusalem, the cursed fig tree
(Matthew 21:18-21) which "is in slavery with her children"
(Galatians 4:25), and the new, heavenly Jerusalem, which
is the free and the mother of all the saints (Galatians 4:26,
Hebrews 12:22-24, Revelation 3:12, Revelation 21:1-10).
Which Jerusalem can rightly be described as those who love
God? The answer to that question has huge ramifications,
both theologically and politically.

I think that everyone is aware of the political ramifications
of Christian Zionism, so I'll focus here on the theological
issues. Should Christians bother to send missionaries to
Israel? Believe it or not, many notable Christian leaders
have discouraged believers from trying to convert Judaists.
John Hagee, the poster boy of Christian Zionism, says that
trying to convert Jews is a "waste of time".

"Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha'i, needs to believe
in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a
covenant with God that has never been replaced with
Christianity. The Jewish people have a relationship to God
through the law of God as given through Moses. I believe
that every Gentile person can only come to God through the
cross of Christ. I believe that every Jewish person who lives
in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has
a relationship with God and will come to redemption."
(Julia Duin, "San Antonio Fundamentalist Battles
Anti-Semitism," The Houston Chronicle, 30 April 1988).

Showing who he believes to be Sovereign, John Hagee writes,
"We support Israel because all other nations were created
by an act of men, but Israel was created by an act of God."
(See Supporting Israel). Hagee goes on to say that "The
Royal Land Grant that was given to Abraham and his seed
through Isaac and Jacob with an everlasting and unconditional
covenant.". He seems to forget that the Scriptures plainly
teach that ".by works of the law no human being will be
justified in his sight." (Romans 3:20). He seems to forget
Jesus' own words concerning the Real Estate in the
New Covenant.

"The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are
a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain,
but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people
ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe
me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain
nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship
what you do not know; we worship what we know, for
salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and
is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the
Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such
people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship
him must worship in spirit and truth."" (John 4:19-24).

Hagee also seems to forget that God's covenant with fleshly
Israel was not unconditional. It required their obedience
(Deuteronomy 28:15, 63). Hagee ignores that fact that
the Abrahamic Covenant was already fulfilled, both physically
(Joshua 23:14) and Spiritually (Galatians 3:8).

More importantly, however, is the issue dealing with the
identity of God and His New Covenant. David Klinghoffer
writes, "Both Jews and Christians worship the same God
and both have a place, for believers, in God's scheme of
things. Jews are the people of the Covenant while Christians
approach God through Jesus." What is this covenant that
Klinghoffer is speaking of? It certainly isn't the New
Covenant, to which Jesus is the sole mediator (1 Timothy 2:5;
Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 12:24). It is foolishness to recognize
Judaism as a religion of the covenant. There is no covenant
without Christ, as even the Old Testament saints "all ate the
same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them,
and the Rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:3-4). So how
has God kept His promises to "His chosen people"?

The Identity of Israel

The common Dispensationalist cry is "the Jews are God's
Chosen people". That begs the question, "just what exactly
is a "Jew"?" Is it a nation, a race, or a religion? Are
American Jews in covenant with God? What about European
proselytes living is Israel? How about Hebrews who practice
Buddhism? Dispensational Zionists have a difficult time
answering that question consistently. Covenantalists,
however, can take their definition of Israel straight
from Scripture.

God promised Abraham that he would make of him a
"great nation" (Genesis 12:2), and that "in thy seed shall
all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Genesis 22:18).
This nation was to be a "holy nation" (Exodus 19:6).

What does it mean to be a Holy Nation? Is a nation holy
simply because the DNA of its citizens matches Abraham's
(which, by the way, would eliminate most of the people
living in modern day Israel)? Does the term "holy nation"
fit some godless country that exists in the Middle East
founded by the United Nations in 1948? Hardly. God
never saved anyone based in his or her genealogy, in either
the Old or New Testament. If that were the case, then Esau
(whom God hated - Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13) and Ishmael
would have a claim on God's Covenant Blessings. So would
King Saul, Judas Iscariot, and the modern day Palestinians.
Likewise, Ruth (a Moabite), Rahab (a Canaanite), and Urriah
(the Hittite), (two of which were Christ's ancestors) would
never have experienced sanctification. Physical circumcision
made one a part of God's visible church, but in the light of
eternity, profits nothing (Galatians 5:6).

A holy nation is set apart by God based on obedience to
His Covenant. In the Old Testament, a Hebrew who was
disobedient was to be "cut off from the congregation of
Israel" (Exodus 12:19). Does this mean that God changed
the person's genetic code so that he was no longer a Hebrew?
Of course not. It means that he was no longer part of the
"holy nation", God's visible church here on earth. The same
is true in the New Testament (ex. 1 Corinthians 5:1-12).
Sadly, the judicial powers of the modern church are almost
non-existent.

In the same Exodus passage, God tells Moses "And when a
stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to
the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him
come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the
land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. One law
shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells
among you." (Exodus 12:48-49). Again, God does not make
this person's DNA match that of Abraham, but instead sets
him apart "as a native of the land" in His holy nation. Thus,
even in the Old Testament, God never considered anyone
a "Jew" based on race alone. Both Jew and Gentiles were
to have "one law".

This is even more obvious the New Testament. The Pharisees
took pride in their linage, but were not members of God's
"holy nation". John the Baptist gave them this warning.

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming
to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned
you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits
worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves,
"We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God
is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees.
Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is
cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:7-10).

The Judaists even bragged to Jesus about their heritage,
proclaiming "Abraham is our father" (John 8:39). But
Jesus was very clear with His response. Contrary to popular
dispensational belief, Judaism is not "Old Testament
religion", but a demon-inspired, Talmudic cult. When the
Pharisees rejected Christ, they rejected Moses (John 5:46).
Furthermore, contrary to the above claims of David
Klinghoffer, Judaists and Christians do NOT worship the
same God. The god of Judaism is the Devil (John 8:44).
The Christian God is the only true God, and the Christ of
the Covenant is the only mediator (1 Timothy 2:5 - See
August's blog "Only One Mediator"). Those who reject Christ
are neither Abraham's children nor God's (John 8:39-42).
As Christ rejecters, they are no longer "God's Chosen People".
Jesus told them, ". the kingdom of God will be taken from
you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it." (Matthew
21:43). This nation is His "holy nation", the Church of Jesus
Christ, the new "Israel of God", and the Galatian church was
so called (Galatians 6:16). Paul, a Hebrew of Hebrews
(Philippians 3:5), was clear "that it is those of faith who
are the sons of Abraham." (Galatians 3:7).

The Church is God's "Israel"

Preterists are often accused of hold to "Replacement
Theology". The truth of the matter is that we do no such
thing. Replacement theology is a misnomer. No one has
been "replaced" in regard to the blessings of the Covenant.
The church is "Israel" (Galatians 6:16), and always has been,
even in the Old Testament.

No one can deny Paul's tender feelings toward his own
countrymen. He is clearly dismayed over their stubbornness,
and even wishes that he could sacrifice his own soul for their
conversion (Romans 9:3). But then Paul clearly contrasts
God's Israel from "Israel after the flesh". He writes
".for they are not all Israel who are of Israel" (Romans 9:6),
"But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and whose circumcision
is that of the heart." (Romans 2:29). "And if you are
Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according
to the promise." (Galatians 3:29). In Christ, all ethnic,
cultural, economic and generational walls have been removed.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor
free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in
Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28). If Jesus Christ removed these
barriers, who are we to try and build them back up?

While the modern dispensational church keeps it's eyes
glued to the Middle East, awaiting some sort of Theological
Extravaganza, Paul clarified that the Abrahamic Covenant
(Genesis 22:18) is being fulfilled through the church,
(and the Galatian Gentile church at that). "And the
Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by
faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying,
"In you all the nations shall be blessed." (Galatians 3:8).
God's everlasting Covenant is not concerned about a 10-mile
strip of real estate in the Middle East. As Christians, we
are members of the New, Heavenly Jerusalem which is
the one and only bride of Christ, and the mother of us
all (Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 12:22).

So what should be the mindset of Christians toward Israel?
Politically speaking Israel is a strong ally of the United
States and of western society in general, therefore, they have
my support, as long as they aren't the aggressors of conflict.
However, we must make it clear that, theologically speaking,
Judaism and Christianity have nothing in common. We need
not attempt any ecumenical alliances with Judaists,
".For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness?
Or what fellowship has light with darkness?" (2 Corinthians
6:14). We are commanded by our Lord to make disciples
of ALL nations (Matthew 28:18-20), and that includes
Judaizers, who cannot be saved apart from Christ, no matter
what John Hagee says. Therefore, while my dispensationalists
friends are praying for the peace of Jerusalem, my prayer is
different. I'm praying for the conversion of Jerusalem.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/kessler-scott_07_01.html

Jesus told us to go into all the world and preach the
gospel to everyone, not just to some. John Hagee
probably would be the first to tell you that he is
capable of making a mistake. He may be going by
the scripture that says the Jews' eyes have been
blinded so that the Gentiles can be saved. But what
it says is they are blinded only "in part." Jesus also
says he wants to provoke them to jealously. He
does that because he loves them and wants them
to come to him in faith, receiving the Messiah
as having come.

Yesterday marked the anniversary of the day in
which the countdown to the Holy Land began
(March 14), and the scriptures in Daniel make
the time very crystal clear that Jesus is the
Messiah and that he was "cut off," but not
for himself, but for all of us to be saved by
trusting in him as their Savior who suffered
and died already for the sins of us all if people
will receive that. It makes it clear in that
passage in Daniel that the temple would be
destroyed at a certain time, and so it was, and
that came to pass in the year 70 AD. That makes
it so very clear that Jesus is the Messiah.

It is a sad commentary, when people sift the Bible through
their doctrines and their doctrines become absolute in
their minds and the Bible is manipulated and twisted up
like a pretzel to make it match their doctrines. This
happens because so many believe that the Bible is useless,
if it isn't all about them today. They deny that, but
why is it then, that their supposed fulfillments of Bible
prophecies that they preach, always end up being about
whatever is in the news lately and the news always
becomes, "The fulfillment of Bible prophecies right
before our very eyes!". And that folks, is Futurism!
Selfishness, conceit, ego, arrogance and vanity! (:

I don't know what someone else has in their
heart if they talk about how current events
fit the endtime prophecies, but I doubt that
most of these have animosity toward the
Jews in their heart. The Bible warns that
there will be a false prophet who will try
to deceive so many by appearing to have
peace to all in mind for all. That makes
the Jews, who are still looking for the
Messiah, to be very vulnerable to that
false prophet that will come along, They
need our prayers. We know that the temple
will be rebuilt and that the false prophet
will try to sit on the throne of David. Most
that would warn of this mean to tell
people who are Jewish to not be
hoodwinked by that false prophet.

Best Regards,
Suzanne
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People?	17 Mar 2007 02:13:57 AM

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:43:53 GMT, "Suzanne"
<shiloh7@flash.net> claimed:

"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:88v0v25gbm045pt47vm668f13v2e97e98b@4ax.com...

1) Whether or not Hagee can admit to a mistake,
is irrelevant, unless he admits to this mistake.
He is preaching a falsehood. But this wasn't my
writing. I quoted what someone else wrote and
to me, it's about anyone who preaches this falsehood.
2) The Scripture is not about today. You should not
read the Bible as if it was written and then sealed,
until YOU happened to open one for the first time.
It was written to be read THEN. I believe that this
was about their time and does not apply today.
Any and all are blind, until they come to Christ.
3) Jesus loves whom He loves. It isn't about the Jews
and they hold no special place over the Gentiles anymore.

It does, but your claim about some countdown
beginning yesterday, makes no sense to me.

The "false prophets" arose in that same generation
and it is not about today.

We know that the temple
will be rebuilt and that the false prophet
will try to sit on the throne of David.

No, "we" don't know any such thing and any temple
built, would be an abomination to God. How can you
think that a temple, which has only one purpose,
which is animal sacrifice, which is why a temple is built,
would be of God, when it spits in the face of what He
did through His Son?
So please, don't tell me what "we" know! (:

Most
that would warn of this mean to tell
people who are Jewish to not be
hoodwinked by that false prophet.

And now you think it's all about the Jews.
The Jews got their land. All of it. They spit in
God's face. They lost their land. It's over. And
if you think that God's plan through Christ is about
some strip of dirt, then you have some issues to
work out! (:
--
Jesus was either honest, or He wasn't.
He either returned within the time frame
that He stated, or Deut 18:22 applies.
He said to those standing in front of Him,
"this generation". Now what does that
phrase mean, any other time you hear it?
Or does it only mean what you know it
means, until you open a Bible and then,
language falls apart and reverses itself?
.

User: "Suzanne"
Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People?	01 Apr 2007 02:09:07 AM

"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:9o4nv29cnvn34kn9jobkk64klkh967nfpb@4ax.com...

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:43:53 GMT, "Suzanne"
<shiloh7@flash.net> claimed:

"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:88v0v25gbm045pt47vm668f13v2e97e98b@4ax.com...

The point is, what exactly did he say, and how
do you know that he said it? I heard him a few
days ago on the Daystar Network speaking to
the host, saying that he believed in witnessing
to the Jews. So I don't agree with whatever
you think he said, I think there is some kind
of misunderstanding.

2) The Scripture is not about today. You should not
read the Bible as if it was written and then sealed,
until YOU happened to open one for the first time.
It was written to be read THEN. I believe that this
was about their time and does not apply today.
Any and all are blind, until they come to Christ.

Your words are strange and do not represent
what I believe. You often are instructing me
on what I should and should not believe as
though you don't understand that the Holy Spirit
lives within me and instructs me.

3) Jesus loves whom He loves. It isn't about the Jews
and they hold no special place over the Gentiles anymore.

I think you show you misunderstand something.

It does, but your claim about some countdown
beginning yesterday, makes no sense to me.

Apparently not. : )

The "false prophets" arose in that same generation
and it is not about today.

There are still false prophets, Pastor Dave.

We know that the temple
will be rebuilt and that the false prophet
will try to sit on the throne of David.

Well, those of us who believe what the
Bible has to say about that believe it.

Most
that would warn of this mean to tell
people who are Jewish to not be
hoodwinked by that false prophet.

And now you think it's all about the Jews.

What I said was that in the tribulation,
the Jews will be vulnerable to believe
the false person who claims to be the
Messiah, who is not the Messiah, because
JESUS SAID they would, not because I
said they would, and he was speaking to
the Jews....and I gave the very verse
where he said this to them.

The Jews got their land. All of it. They spit in
God's face. They lost their land. It's over. And
if you think that God's plan through Christ is about
some strip of dirt, then you have some issues to
work out! (:

Zechariah 12:9
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will
seek to destroy all the nations that come against
Jerusalem."

Jesus was either honest, or He wasn't.
He either returned within the time frame
that He stated, or Deut 18:22 applies.
He said to those standing in front of Him,
"this generation". Now what does that
phrase mean, any other time you hear it?
Or does it only mean what you know it
means, until you open a Bible and then,
language falls apart and reverses itself?

Which "This generation" statement do
you refer to? One of the statements in
which he said "this generation," is the
one where he says this generation shall
not pass until they see the coming of
the kingdom, and immediately after
this passage, that is explained as a
select few that were present, went with
him to the Mount of Transfiguration,
where they saw the Kingdom of God
come in power in what they saw when
Jesus was temporarily transfigured
and talked with Moses and Elijah. It's
told in several gospels clearly. They
were given a sighting of the future
Kingdom.

Suzanne
.

User: "nancy"
Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People?	08 Mar 2007 05:53:54 PM

On Mar 8, 4:15=EF=BF=BDpm, Pastor Dave <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:

Who Are God's Chosen People?

<snip>

bb says:
It is a sad commentary, when people sift the Bible through

their doctrines and their doctrines become absolute in
their minds and the Bible is manipulated and twisted up
like a pretzel to make it match their doctrines. =A0This
happens because so many believe that the Bible is useless,
if it isn't all about them today. =A0They deny that, but
why is it then, that their supposed fulfillments of Bible
prophecies that they preach, always end up being about
whatever is in the news lately and the news always
becomes, "The fulfillment of Bible prophecies right
before our very eyes!". =A0And that folks, is Futurism!
Selfishness, conceit, ego, arrogance and vanity! (:

~~~ I have found out something so extraordinary....it will take your
breath away.
In the church (WCG) that I was in we were taught that ~leaven~ was
sin. During the Week of Unleavened Bread we should try to remove all
sin from our life. We were taught wrong....God's word says ~leaven~ is
wrong doctrine.
Mat 16:6 And Jesus said to them, Take heed, and beware the leaven of
the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mat 16:11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak
to you about loaves, but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and
of the Sadducees?
Mat 16:12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the
leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Look below...if ~leaven~ was sin, this would mean that heaven is full
of sin!
Luk 13:20 And again He said, To what shall I compare the kingdom of
God?
Luk 13:21 It is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three
measures of meal, until the whole was leavened.
http://www.zionministry.com/passover.html
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People?	09 Mar 2007 08:34:13 AM

On 8 Mar 2007 15:53:54 -0800, "nancy" <nwd53@aol.com> claimed:

~~~ I have found out something so extraordinary....it will take your
breath away.

In the church (WCG) that I was in we were taught that ~leaven~ was
sin. During the Week of Unleavened Bread we should try to remove all
sin from our life. We were taught wrong....God's word says ~leaven~ is
wrong doctrine.

Mat 16:6 And Jesus said to them, Take heed, and beware the leaven of
the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mat 16:11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak
to you about loaves, but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and
of the Sadducees?
Mat 16:12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the
leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Look below...if ~leaven~ was sin, this would mean that heaven is full
of sin!

Luk 13:20 And again He said, To what shall I compare the kingdom of
God?
Luk 13:21 It is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three
measures of meal, until the whole was leavened.

http://www.zionministry.com/passover.html

Very good point. :)
As for the Passover, yes, Jesus did come to preach
to the Jews. There is no doubt about that. God
was going to fulfill His word, which we can find
in Daniel 9. The Prince, the Messiah, was to confirm
the Covenant for seven years, with the Jews. This
happened for the first 3.5 years, with His ministry
and then, He was "cut off" (crucified). His Apostles
confirmed it for the next 3.5 years, by preaching to
the Jews. After this, enter Paul the Apostle. The
message then went out to the Gentiles in force.
But to say that we need to keep the Passover,
is to try to hang on to the Old Mosaic Covenant,
which is indeed dead and gone. The Law is dead
and cannot save anyone and keeping the Passover
as a requirement, is part of the Mosaic Law. And
isn't looking at an animal as the Lamb, a rejection
of the real Lamb, who came and died for our sin?
In other words, you cannot say on one hand that
we are saved through Christ and then on the other,
that we need to keep the Law.
Furthermore, if we must keep the Law, you do not
get to pick and choose which Laws, saying that this
or that "part of the Law" has passed, while another
part is still in effect. That is a contradiction. One
either keeps the Law, or one doesn't. And if one
seeks to keep the Law, then one must keep all of
the Law, or one is in violation of the Law. And
that person has a choice to make. Keep the whole
Law, or don't keep the Law at all. And if one keeps
the Law, then one rejects Christ, since to keep the
Law, one must also perform animal sacrifices for
sin, since no one can succeed at following the Law.
And to do so, rejects Christ as our one time sacrifice,
who freed us from the bondage of the Law.
As Paul told us, no one can be saved by the Law.
By the Law, no flesh shall be justified. And Paul
tells us that...
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave
nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are
all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28
And...
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is
circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but
he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision
is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter;
whose praise is not from men but from God."
- Romans 2:28-29
Galatians 3:23-29
23) But before faith came, we were kept under guard
by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward
be revealed.
24) Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith.
25) But after faith has come, we are no longer under
a tutor.
26) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have
put on Christ.
28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave
nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all
one in Christ Jesus.
29) And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed,
and heirs according to the promise.
--
Read the Bible and let God's word speak for itself.
Reading the books by so called, "prophecy experts"
and then reading those opinions back into the Bible,
is not "Bible study". It is only "opinion study".
If your attitude is, "If the Bible is not all about
us and our time, then what good is it?" and "I must
study to find out how it all fits into my time.",
then your attitude is selfish and vain. If you
want to understand the New Testament, then study
the Old Testament. All of it, thoroughly and
not just selected snippets, taken out of context
and shown to you in the light of some authors'
opinion and study history, to see if they have
been fulfilled already and then you will begin
to see and understand the language that God used
throughout time, to talk to His people and how
much of it was symbolic.
.

User: "®andy"
Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People?	09 Mar 2007 09:51:48 AM

On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 06:34:13 -0800,
in article <v6r2v2ha2vtno83tom6gv464a6gfjvmgd8@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:

But to say that we need to keep the Passover,
is to try to hang on to the Old Mosaic Covenant,
which is indeed dead and gone. The Law is dead
and cannot save anyone and keeping the Passover
as a requirement, is part of the Mosaic Law. And
isn't looking at an animal as the Lamb, a rejection
of the real Lamb, who came and died for our sin?

And yet you claim the promises made to Abraham were undone by
their failure to keep the Law, even though Christ Himself is
the ultimate "seed" who would fulfill the promise, and
Galatians plainly and directly states the Law cannot nullify
the promises of God (Gal. 3). If Israel's failure to keep the
Law had undone the promises God made to Abraham, then Christ,
Abraham's "seed", would never have come in the first place,
you damned fool!
That Paul used Abraham as an example of how you can't loose a
promise based on the introduction of a merit system (Galatians
3), clearly refutes your heretical assertion the promises made
to Abraham were undone by failure to keep the Law! Such
claims are tantamount to promoting a gospel of merits, which
will result in eternal damnation (Gal. 1:8-9).
Christ is the "seed" to whom the promises were made both to
Abraham and the Gentiles. He did not fail to keep the Law,
and He IS the rightful heir to the Abrahamic, Palestinian,
Davidic, and New covenants. He will reign, in Palestine, on
David's throne, just as He does over the church!
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "nancy"
Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People?	10 Mar 2007 05:44:42 PM

On Mar 9, 9:34 am, Pastor Dave <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 8 Mar 2007 15:53:54 -0800, "nancy" <n...@aol.com> claimed:

~~~ I have found out something so extraordinary....it will take your
breath away.

In the church (WCG) that I was in we were taught that ~leaven~ was
sin. During the Week of Unleavened Bread we should try to remove all
sin from our life. We were taught wrong....God's word says ~leaven~ is
wrong doctrine.

Mat 16:6 And Jesus said to them, Take heed, and beware the leaven of
the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mat 16:11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak
to you about loaves, but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and
of the Sadducees?
Mat 16:12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the
leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Look below...if ~leaven~ was sin, this would mean that heaven is full
of sin!

Luk 13:20 And again He said, To what shall I compare the kingdom of
God?
Luk 13:21 It is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three
measures of meal, until the whole was leavened.

http://www.zionministry.com/passover.html

Very good point. :)

#######
bb writes: As for the Passover, yes, Jesus did come to preach

to the Jews. There is no doubt about that.

~~~Actually, He didn't. This was surprising for me, too.
Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent except to the lost
sheep of the house of Israel.
~~~When He sent the twelve out He sent them to the lost tribes of
Israel, also.
Mat 10:6 But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
~~~ It was not the time for the Jews, but their hard service will soon
be over. And what a wonderful day this will be...I am so looking
forward to it.
Isa 40:1 Comfort, O comfort my people, says your God.
Isa 40:2 Speak lovingly to the heart of Jerusalem, and cry to her
that her warfare is done, that her iniquity is pardoned; for she has
received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.
~~~and Judah will repent.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of
Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on
Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns
for his only son, and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over
the first-born.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like
the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, each family apart; the family of
David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan
apart, and their wives apart
Zec 12:13 the family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives
apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 all the families who remain, each family apart and their
wives apart.
~~~bb, why do you call yourself ~pastor~? Are you the head of a
church?
#######
God

was going to fulfill His word, which we can find
in Daniel 9. The Prince, the Messiah, was to confirm
the Covenant for seven years, with the Jews. This
happened for the first 3.5 years, with His ministry
and then, He was "cut off" (crucified). His Apostles
confirmed it for the next 3.5 years, by preaching to
the Jews. After this, enter Paul the Apostle. The
message then went out to the Gentiles in force.

But to say that we need to keep the Passover,
is to try to hang on to the Old Mosaic Covenant,
which is indeed dead and gone. The Law is dead
and cannot save anyone and keeping the Passover
as a requirement, is part of the Mosaic Law. And
isn't looking at an animal as the Lamb, a rejection
of the real Lamb, who came and died for our sin?

In other words, you cannot say on one hand that
we are saved through Christ and then on the other,
that we need to keep the Law.

Furthermore, if we must keep the Law, you do not
get to pick and choose which Laws, saying that this
or that "part of the Law" has passed, while another
part is still in effect. That is a contradiction. One
either keeps the Law, or one doesn't. And if one
seeks to keep the Law, then one must keep all of
the Law, or one is in violation of the Law. And
that person has a choice to make. Keep the whole
Law, or don't keep the Law at all. And if one keeps
the Law, then one rejects Christ, since to keep the
Law, one must also perform animal sacrifices for
sin, since no one can succeed at following the Law.
And to do so, rejects Christ as our one time sacrifice,
who freed us from the bondage of the Law.

As Paul told us, no one can be saved by the Law.
By the Law, no flesh shall be justified. And Paul
tells us that...

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave
nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are
all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28

And...

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is
circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but
he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision
is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter;
whose praise is not from men but from God."
- Romans 2:28-29

Galatians 3:23-29

23) But before faith came, we were kept under guard
by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward
be revealed.
24) Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified by faith.
25) But after faith has come, we are no longer under
a tutor.
26) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have
put on Christ.
28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave
nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all
one in Christ Jesus.
29) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed,
and heirs according to the promise.

--

Read the Bible and let God's word speak for itself.
Reading the books by so called, "prophecy experts"
and then reading those opinions back into the Bible,
is not "Bible study". It is only "opinion study".
If your attitude is, "If the Bible is not all about
us and our time, then what good is it?" and "I must
study to find out how it all fits into my time.",
then your attitude is selfish and vain. If you
want to understand the New Testament, then study
the Old Testament. All of it, thoroughly and
not just selected snippets, taken out of context
and shown to you in the light of some authors'
opinion and study history, to see if they have
been fulfilled already and then you will begin
to see and understand the language that God used
throughout time, to talk to His people and how
much of it was symbolic.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People?	10 Mar 2007 07:05:03 PM

On 10 Mar 2007 15:44:42 -0800, "nancy" <nwd53@aol.com>
claimed:

bb writes: As for the Passover, yes, Jesus did come to preach

to the Jews. There is no doubt about that.

~~~Actually, He didn't. This was surprising for me, too.

Once again, you need to fix how you quote messages.
It is obvious that you're using Google and it just flat
out sucks for using usenet (news groups)!
And yes, He did come to preach to the Jews. You can
deny it, but He did.

Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent
except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

You assume that there were many who were not lost.
Yet Jesus showed that most were lot and the fact is,
that He came to preach to the Jews, not to the Gentiles,
which Matthew 15:26-29 shows, even with Samaritans.
And who was it who was lost? Those who did not look
forward to Him, in saving grace. As Hebrews shows us,
it was those like Abraham, who did not look for land,
but rather, for the Promise of the Heavenly Jerusalem,
not an earthly one, that were of the true faith.
Hebrews 11:8-10,13-16
8) By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to
go out to the place which he would receive as an
inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where
he was going.
9) By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in
a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and
Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;
10) for he waited for the city which has foundations,
whose builder and maker is God.
Note: Not made with hands, but a spiritual city,
made by God, in Heaven, not here.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city
of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM,
to an innumerable company of angels." - Heb 12:22
13) These all died in faith, not having received the
promises, but having seen them afar off were assured
of them, embraced them and confessed that they were
strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Notice that while on Earth, they were "strangers and
pilgrims". It was not an Earthly promised land that
they sought, but a Heavenly one.
14) For those who say such things declare plainly that
they seek a homeland.
15) And truly if they had called to mind that country
from which they had come out, they would have had
opportunity to return.
16) But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly
country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called
their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
Note: They sought a HEAVENLY COUNTRY, which was
realized by those in the first century and it was they who
were waiting for the wedding to the Lamb, which did
take place!
Once again...
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city
of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM,
to an innumerable company of angels." - Heb 12:22

~~~When He sent the twelve out He sent them
to the lost tribes of Israel, also.

Mat 10:6 But rather go to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel.

And you quote out of context, which is normal for those
who wish to promote their doctrine over the word of God.
And where are the lost of Israel found? In Israel!
Hello??? McFly??? :)
And Jesus made it very clear that it was national Israel
He was speaking of, when He sent the disciples out...
Matthew 10:5-7
5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them,
saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any
city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven
is at hand.
Note: Not to the Gentiles.
Note: Not to the Samaritans.
Note: The Kingdom was "AT HAND". Not "thousands
of years off".

~~~ It was not the time for the Jews, but their hard
service will soon be over. And what a wonderful day
this will be...I am so looking forward to it.

That's a load of crap. And you seek to win merit by
your own works and not by the grace of God.
When Paul discussed the works of the Law, he said...
Ephesians 2:8-9
8) For by grace you have been saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.
You seek to boast! And the truth is, you have skipped
almost everything that I wrote and you have completely
ignored the Scriptures that I posted, because they don't
suit your vanity!
You seek to ignore the Scriptures I posted, posting others,
as if to claim that the ones that I posted can't be right,
because hey, look at what the ones you posted say. That
is not an honest approach, but rather, just shows that you
seek to pit one Scripture against another! And it never
occurs to you, that you are acting the fool!
As for Zechariah, you had better stop pretending that
it says that the Jews will prevail. You love to quote
14:3, but never look at 14:1-2. And Zechariah 14
is about the return of the Lord!
Zechariah 14:1-2
1) Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2) For I will gather all the nations to battle against
Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, the houses
rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city
shall go into captivity.
And in v3, when it says that He would turn and fight,
if you read the other prophets, you will see that it was
not by war that it would happen, but as the prophets
said, the attacking empire would fall, not by men's hands.
And that the opposing army, which was the Roman army
in the Jewish War, did exactly that, later. The empire
did crumble.
But the fact is, that Jerusalem was destroyed, which is
what Zechariah said would happen. Now compare the
last quoted sentence from it above, to what Jesus said
about His return, which was not in triumph for Jews
nationally, but ended in their destruction, since their
salvation was not to be national, but eschatological...
Matthew 24:40-42
40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken,
and the other left.
41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one
shall be taken, and the other left.
42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your
Lord doth come.
Now you go ahead and focus on your Earthly existence,
as if that's what it's all about. And when you die (and
you will die), then you can stand before God and say,
"Well God, I guess you were too slow for me and I
missed out, because I'm dead and it hasn't happened yet.
So what now Lord? I guess it just sucks for me, because
as we all know, it isn't about Heaven, but Earth and if it
doesn't happen for Jews on Earth, then You're useless!".
The truth is, that Jesus proved that it was not about
the national, but the eschatological. The "vengeance"
was not against the opponents of the Jews, but against
the Jews themselves and it was when all things written
would be fulfilled!
Luke 21:20-22
20) But when you see JERUSALEM surrounded by armies,
then know that ITS desolation is near.
21) Then let those who are IN JUDEA flee to the mountains,
let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not
those who are in the country enter her.
22) For THESE are the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS
which are WRITTEN may BE FULFILLED.
Furthermore, Christ stated clearly that His Kingdom would
not be physical and could not be seen with the eye!...
Luke 17:20-21
20) Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when
the kingdom of God would come, He answered them
and said, The kingdom of God does not come with
observation;
21) Nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’
For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.
JESUS: The Kingdom does not come with observation.
YOU: The Kingdom will come with observation.
JESUS: The Kingdom cannot be pointed at.
YOU: The Kingdom will be able to be pointed at.
Now I have had enough of your nonsense! If you wish
to ignore what people write and keep preaching your
garbage, as if everyone is too stupid to notice that
you're running away from the text, you go ahead, but
know that I am not that stupid and I take that as an
insult!
Now you can either deal with exactly what I posted,
directly and specifically, or you can talk to yourself,
being stupid enough to claim that I couldn't handle
your posts, which are utter *****! (:
All responses from you that do not respond directly
and specifically to what i have actually said, will be
ignored, period!
--
Read the Bible and let God's word speak for itself.
Reading the books by so called, "prophecy experts"
and then reading those opinions back into the Bible,
is not "Bible study". It is only "opinion study".
If your attitude is, "If the Bible is not all about
us and our time, then what good is it?" and "I must
study to find out how it all fits into my time.",
then your attitude is selfish and vain. If you
want to understand the New Testament, then study
the Old Testament. All of it, thoroughly and
not just selected snippets, taken out of context
and shown to you in the light of some authors'
opinion and study history, to see if they have
been fulfilled already and then you will begin
to see and understand the language that God used
throughout time, to talk to His people and how
much of it was symbolic.
.

User: "nancy"
Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People?	11 Mar 2007 10:35:54 AM

On Mar 10, 8:05 pm, Pastor Dave <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 10 Mar 2007 15:44:42 -0800, "nancy" <n...@aol.com>
claimed:

bb writes: As for the Passover, yes, Jesus did come to preach

to the Jews. There is no doubt about that.

~~~Actually, He didn't. This was surprising for me, too.

Once again, you need to fix how you quote messages.
It is obvious that you're using Google and it just flat
out sucks for using usenet (news groups)!

~~~ I do not understand what I am doing wrong. If you can explain to
me what it is....
....and ~stop~ saying if things don't go ~your~ way....you'll take your
toys and go home! Try being a man and stand for what you believe....no
matter where it takes you!
#######

And yes, He did come to preach to the Jews. You can
deny it, but He did.

Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent
except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

You assume that there were many who were not lost.
Yet Jesus showed that most were lot and the fact is,
that He came to preach to the Jews, not to the Gentiles,
which Matthew 15:26-29 shows, even with Samaritans.

And who was it who was lost? Those who did not look
forward to Him, in saving grace. As Hebrews shows us,
it was those like Abraham, who did not look for land,
but rather, for the Promise of the Heavenly Jerusalem,
not an earthly one, that were of the true faith.

Hebrews 11:8-10,13-16

8) By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to
go out to the place which he would receive as an
inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where
he was going.
9) By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in
a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and
Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;
10) for he waited for the city which has foundations,
whose builder and maker is God.

Note: Not made with hands, but a spiritual city,
made by God, in Heaven, not here.

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city
of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM,
to an innumerable company of angels." - Heb 12:22

13) These all died in faith, not having received the
promises, but having seen them afar off were assured
of them, embraced them and confessed that they were
strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Notice that while on Earth, they were "strangers and
pilgrims". It was not an Earthly promised land that
they sought, but a Heavenly one.

14) For those who say such things declare plainly that
they seek a homeland.
15) And truly if they had called to mind that country
from which they had come out, they would have had
opportunity to return.
16) But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly
country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called
their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Note: They sought a HEAVENLY COUNTRY, which was
realized by those in the first century and it was they who
were waiting for the wedding to the Lamb, which did
take place!

Once again...

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city
of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM,
to an innumerable company of angels." - Heb 12:22

~~~When He sent the twelve out He sent them
to the lost tribes of Israel, also.

Mat 10:6 But rather go to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel.

And you quote out of context, which is normal for those
who wish to promote their doctrine over the word of God.

And where are the lost of Israel found? In Israel!
Hello??? McFly??? :)

And Jesus made it very clear that it was national Israel
He was speaking of, when He sent the disciples out...

Matthew 10:5-7

5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them,
saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any
city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven
is at hand.

Note: Not to the Gentiles.

Note: Not to the Samaritans.

Note: The Kingdom was "AT HAND". Not "thousands
of years off".