| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
21 Jan 2008 09:05:36 PM |
| Object: |
Who Are God's Chosen People? |
Who Are God's Chosen People?
As you study this subject in light of this essay, you
may find that it contradicts what you have been taught.
If this is so, it is because you have been taught a
"system," not the scripture. What does the term "chosen
people" mean? Many think immediately of Israel. Is this
correct? What does the Bible say?
Who was Deuteronomy 7:6 (speaking of 'chosen people')
spoken to? Deuteronomy 6:3-4 reveals it was spoken to
Israel. At that time, Israel consisted of all those that
came out of Egypt with Moses (see Deuteronomy 7:8).
A very similar verse is Deuteronomy 14:2. In 1 Chronicles
16:13, Israel is called "His chosen ones": David wrote
Psalm 33:12; 105:6, 43. And Isaiah records these words
from the Lord: Isaiah 41:8-9; 43:10,20; 44:1. In Isaiah
48:12, the Lord refers to them as "My called." And Daniel
calls them "His chosen people" (Daniel 11:15).
From the above, it can be seen that the phrase,
"chosen people" definitely applied to Israel. But, what was
the composition of Old Testament Israel? According to
the Bible, Israel was made up of:
1) The descendants of Jacob (Exodus 1:1; Joshua 13:6, etc.),
And...
2) Those who joined Israel through circumcision and keeping
the law (Exodus 12:48ff).
Keeping the covenant was a requirement for all those who
wished to remain a part of Israel (Genesis 17:14, Exodus
12:15,19; 30:32,38; 31:14; Leviticus 7:20-21, 25,27;
17:4,9-10, 14; 18:29; 19:8; and Numbers 15:30-31).
These Scriptures, and many others, show that membership
in the nation of Israel was dependent on obedience to God's
commandments. To disobey God was to lose one's citizenship.
When most people think of Old Testament Israel, they
think exclusively in terms of Israel as a nation. Yet, this
is not the true Biblical meaning of "Israel". The name
"Israel" has always had a twofold significance: one
national, and the other religious. For example Exodus 19:6
and Amos 9:11-12 proclaims that the remnant of Israel
would be largely an entity of religious instead of national
destination. Isaiah says much the same thing (Isaiah
56:7-8).
The primary meaning of "Israel" in the Old Testament
stands for the religious covenant community, the people who
worship God in truth and Spirit. Secondarily, it denotes a
distinct ethnic group or nation which is called to become
spiritual Israel. Decisive for the Old Testament prophets
and their prophecies is the theological quality of the
'people of God,' not their ethnic and political
characteristics.
Contrary to the claims of Hal Lindsey, and other
dispensational authors (Charles Ryrie, etc.), the blessing
of Israel's election was not unconditional. When the
election service is withheld, the election loses its
meaning, and therefore fails. .If Israel ceased to
acknowledge God to be her Lord, then she declared that she
no longer wished to be His people. Her high calling to be
the 'Chosen People' was not the mark of Divine indulgence or
favoritism, but a summons to a task exacting and unceasing,
and election and task were so closely bound together that
she could not have one without the other."
Did Old Testament Israel lose her election? As Paul
would say, "God forbid!" The Old Testament prophesied in
many places that a "remnant" would be saved. The question
is: Of whom was this remnant to consist? According to
Jeremiah 31:31-34, the remnant would be made up of those who
"know the Lord," and whose sins would be forgiven completely
(unlike under the Old Covenant - Hebrews 10:1-4). This was
to be made possible through the initiation of a "new
covenant." This New Covenant (or "Testament" -KJV) was
ratified by Jesus at His crucifixion, shown to His disciples
in symbolic form in the Last Supper (Matthew 26:28, Mark
14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25).
Is New Testament Israel any different from Old Testament
Israel? The Israel of the New Covenant is made up of 1)
those descendants of Jacob who believed in the Messiah
(Matthew 10:6; 15:24; Acts 2:36-41; 21:20, etc.), and, 2)
those who joined Israel through spiritual circumcision and
the keeping of the new "law" (Romans 2:28-29; 13:10; 1
Timothy 1:5).
With the establishment of the New Covenant, physical
descent was no longer a determining factor for entrance into
Israel. Only those who believed in the Messiah could enter
or remain a part of Israel. Let us examine what the Bible
has to say on the subject in Jeremiah 11:16. Verse 17 says
this was directed to "the house of Israel, and the house of
Judah." Read what Hosea says of Israel in Hosea 14:6.
Paul picks up the olive tree motif in Romans 11:17-24.
He says those Jews who rejected the Messiah were themselves
rejected and "broken off" (or cut off, to use the Old
Testament term) from the "olive tree" of Israel (verse 20).
The apostle showed that the only possible way to remain a
citizen of Israel was to believe in Jesus as Messiah. This
citizenship was also offered to the Gentiles on the same
condition. If they would put their faith in the Messiah of
Israel, they would be made fellow citizens of Israel
(Ephesians 2:19). Christ created His church, not beside
Israel, but as the faithful remnant of Israel that inherits
the covenant promises and responsibilities. Christ's church
is not separated from the Israel of God, only from the
Christ-rejecting Jewish nation.
The identification of the church with Israel is explicit
in Peter's first epistle (1 Peter 2:9). Here, Peter
definitively states that those who "believe" in Christ Jesus
(1 Peter 2:7) were the "chosen race" and the "holy nation"
(1 Peter 2:9; compare Exodus 19:6; Deuteronomy 7:6; and
14:2). Only in Christ could Israel as a nation have remained
the true covenant people of God. God's covenant people are
no longer distinguished by racial or territorial
characteristics, but exclusively by their faith in Christ.
And the land we have inherited is a spiritual one. The
spiritual blessings of citizenship in the Israel of God are
ours as servants of Christ, but what of the "unconditional"
land promises of the so-called "Palestinian Covenant"?
Is present Israel a fulfillment of prophesy?
One of the most common assertions of the premillennial
dispensationalist today is that the formation of the State
of Israel in 1948 is proof that the Jews are still "God's
Chosen People," and that He still has prophetic plans for
them. (This has been asserted more vigorously than ever due
to the recent hostilities in the Middle East). It is claimed
that God was at work bringing the Jews back to their
"ancient homeland," and that they have a Biblical right to
claim Palestine as their own. Are these claims correct? Was
the formation of the State of Israel evidence of God's
blessing? Of God's election?
Just what Scriptures do dispensationalists use to
support these claims? How do they come to their conclusions?
As you may know already, the dispensationalist uses what he
calls a "literal hermeneutic." That is, he claims to
interpret the words of the Bible at face value,
understanding them in their "normal," everyday usage and
meaning. This extremely literal hermeneutic is then used to
"interpret" the prophecies of the Old Testament that speak
of the return of God's people to the Holy Land. However,
this literalism is also used as an excuse to ignore the
plain reinterpretation by the New Testament writers of these
very same prophecies. Even when the inspired writers of the
New Testament give a meaning to the Old Testament.
prophecies other than a "literal" one, the dispensationalist
will say that this is not the complete meaning, and that
these prophecies "remain to be realized for Israel."
One of the Scriptures the dispensationalist claims was
fulfilled by the 1948 formation of the State of Israel is
found in Ezekiel 36-37. This prophecy was given to Ezekiel
during the Babylonian captivity (Ezekiel 1:1-2), and
foretold the eventual return of Israel to their land. Tied
in with this prophecy was the prediction of the coming
Messiah (Ezekiel 38), and the inauguration of the New
Covenant. As we know from both secular history and the New
Testament, the people did return to the land and the Messiah
did come and establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28).
Despite this, dispensationalists deny fulfillment of either
of these prophecies, saying they found only a "partial
fulfillment" in Israel's return and Christ's first advent.
They further allege that the re-gathering of Jews to form
the current State of Israel is part of the final
fulfillment. They say the blessings of the "Palestinian
Covenant" are only now coming into existence. The promises
of such passages as Deuteronomy 30 are touted as "Scriptural
basis" for Israel's re-gathering. How should we answer such
claims?
According to Deuteronomy 30:1-8, a necessary condition
for the re-gathering of Israel to Palestine was returning to
the Lord (verses 2-3). Based on this clear passage of
Scripture, it can be definitely concluded that the State of
Israel, which now exists, was not formed as a result of the
blessings of this covenant (the "Palestinian Covenant" of
the Scofield Bible).
The Jews of 1948 (except for maybe a few isolated
individuals) did not turn to the Lord. And, to base the
formation of Israel upon their alleged "faithfulness" to
Judaism is to betray a fundamental misunderstanding of what
Judaism is. Some think the Jew of today has a special
advantage, perhaps even salvation without Christ, because
they believe in the God of the Old Testament, and follow the
Old Testament religion. This overlooks the fact that the
religion of the Old Testament was based on making sacrifices
for sins (Leviticus 17:11). It also ignores the statements
of the New Testament that there is absolutely NO salvation
outside Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:10-12), and that the Old
Testament religion was no longer efficacious (Hebrews 7-10).
The Lord of the New Testament is Jesus. This revelation
casts light on who the Lord of the Old Testament is. For
example, Peter quotes Joel 2:32 as being fulfilled in Jesus
(Acts 2:21).
What shall we answer when the dispensationalist claims
the existence of the State of Israel today is "proof" of
God's covenant blessing upon them? With the clear backing of
Scripture, we can say, "NO!" We can then point to
Deuteronomy 30:1-8 as proof that the Israel of today is
definitely not the Israel of the Bible! But, what about the
land promised to Abraham?
Paul, in citing the promise to Abraham, does not limit
the territory to Palestine: It was NOT through the law that
Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would
be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that
comes by faith (Romans 4:13). This is an extension of the
statement of Jesus in Matthew 5:5, in which the meek shall
inherit not merely Palestine, but the earth. As you can see,
the inheritance is for Abraham and his offspring. The
dispensationalist believes Jewish people are entitled to the
inheritance based on their racial extraction or ethnic
heritage. But, Paul counters this idea in Galatians 3:7,29.
In case he hasn't made it clear enough, Paul reiterates for
those who expect some special privilege for physical
descendants of Abraham: "Now to Abraham's and his seed the
promises were made. He does not say, And to seeds' as of
many, but as of one, And to your seed, who is Christ"
(Galatians 3:16). The only way to inherit anything is in
Christ! The Jewish leaders who came to John the Baptist
thought the Kingdom was theirs automatically by virtue of
their heritage. (Matthew 3:9). The Apostle Paul states the
nature of true Jewishness in Romans 2:28,29; 9:6-8; 11:5-7.
The full scope of Israel's prophets was not
nationalistic, but universal, with an increasing cosmic
dimension which took in heaven and earth (Isaiah 65:17;
24:21-23). The writer of Hebrews assures them Abraham was
not looking merely to Palestine for fulfillment of the
promises. He looked for "a better country," and a city
"whose builder and maker is God" (Hebrews 11:10,16). The
continuity of the Old Testament terms and Middle East images
in Hebrews assures the church that God's promise has neither
failed nor been postponed, but is experienced now in Christ
(Hebrews 6:5), And, the land promises made to Abraham are
fulfilled in the universal Kingdom of God.
In conclusion, we have studied the subject of who God's
Chosen People are, and have found that, according to the
Bible, Israel is now composed of all those who believe in
Jesus as Messiah. It is not correct, therefore, to state
that the church has REPLACED Israel. Rather, the church IS
the continuity of the Old Testament Israel of God; it has
only replaced the Jewish nation. There is no more "Jew" and
"Gentile" racial distinctions. All nations are now a part of
Spiritual Israel in Christ. Christ's kingdom is here now in
fullness. All (who were a part of the true spiritual) Israel
were saved and given the inheritance (Romans 11:26).
With the advent of the war in the Middle East, many
people are wondering what is taking place in a prophetic
sense. As preterists, we can say with assurance that the
events now taking place are NOT a fulfillment of prophecy.
We know that all prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70, at which
time the New Covenant was fully established, making the
Kingdom available to all who would believe in Jesus as
Savior (Messiah). Some emotionalism is understandable in
time of war. However, we need not fear the Great Tribulation
or being "left behind" in the Rapture. We know by the time
limitations recorded in the New Testament that these things
have already occurred, and we are living in the new
spiritual promised land.
Speaking of Jews, here is what the scripture says:
Isaiah 65:15, "And ye shall leave your name for a
curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and
call his servants by another name:"
Matthew 21:43, "Therefore say I unto you, The
kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a
nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
The above two verses were fulfilled in 70 AD, when the
Jews were slayed, the temple burned down, and the Kingdom of
God was taken from the Jews and given to all who believe in
Christ.
Other Proof that there is no Jewish Race Today
After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, the nation
of Israel, after the flesh, was scattered throughout the
earth, and lost all tribal relations. This scattering was
made immutable due to the fact that all tribal genealogical
records were destroyed with the Temple in A.D. 70. The
simple fact is that there is no existing Jewish race. Not
only the Bible confirms this (as already revealed), but the
writings of worldly authorities, including Jewish resources
as well. Consider the following quotations:
The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973): "The Jews As A Race:
The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to
the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropocentric
measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world
indicate that they differ greatly from one another with
respect to all the important physical characteristics" (vol.
12, page 1054).
Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971): "It is a common
assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even
in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of
today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily
recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin
and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in
the course of their formation as a people and a nation they
had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from
people moving into the general area they occupied. This had
taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to
Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .
"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic
attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any
unified racial classification of them a contradiction in
terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion
that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced
by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in
appearance from the surrounding population. That many can't
be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for
some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon"
(Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).
Encyclopedia Americana (1986): "Racial and Ethnic
Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a
distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every
country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time,
their physical traits came to approximate those of the
indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct
racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among
the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary
miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism"
(Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).
Collier's Encyclopedia (1977): "A common error and
persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a
'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the
standpoint of both physical and historical tradition.
Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are
by no means uniform in physical character and that they
nearly always reflect the physical and mental
characteristics of the people among whom they live"
(Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).
Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia (1970): "In 1970 the
Israeli Knesset adopted legislation defining a Jew as one
born of a Jewish mother or a convert" (vol. 14, p. 214).
H.G. Wells: "There can be little doubt that the
scattered Phoenicians in Spain and Africa and throughout the
Mediterranean, speaking as they did a language closely akin
to Hebrew and being deprived of their authentic political
rights, became proselytes to Judaism. For phases of vigorous
proselytism alternated with phases of exclusive jealousy in
Jewish history. On one occasion the Idumeans, being
conquered, were all forcibly made Jews. There were Arab
tribes who were Jews in the time of Muhammad, and a Turkish
people who were mainly Jews in South Russia in the ninth
century. Judaism is indeed the reconstructed political ideal
of many shattered peoples - mainly Semitic.... The main part
of Jewry never was in Judea and had never come out of Judea"
(The Outline of History, p. 505).
John Bray: "Many Christians do not know that the vast
majority of so-called Jews in the world today are the
Ashkenazim Jews, while the remainder of them are the
Sephardim Jews. The Ashkenazim Jews have as their background
not the nation of Israel but a country called Khazaria,
which country at one time was the largest country in Europe.
The settlers of Khazaria were Turks and Huns. In A.D. 740
King Bulan of Khazaria decided to adopt the Judaistic
religion for his country. A number of Jews were already
living there. So he converted to Judaism, along with all his
officials, and whole nation ended up being known as a nation
of Jews. In 970, Russia came in and dominated the situation,
and the Khazars were scattered, many of them going down into
Poland and Lithuania. Where at the dawn of our modern
civilization the largest concentration of Jews were found.
Today, the largest percentage of so-called Jews in the world
have as their background this group of people" (This
information is fully documented in detail in John Bray's
book, Israel in Bible Prophecy).
Today, being a Jew simply means that one is of the
Judaistic religion or a convert to it, or else in a
"brotherhood" of those who are. Therefore, being a Jew has
nothing to do with race. We are familiar with a number of
notable figures, such as Sammy Davis, Jr., Elizabeth Taylor,
Madonna, and Tom Arnold, in fact, who became Jews by
conversion to the religion of Judaism.
Therefore, we can clearly and confidently assert that
there is no such thing as a Jewish race, nor ever can there
be. Since the fall of Jerusalem, and the scattering of the
nation of Israel in the first century, the nation calling
itself Israel has consisted of a collection of people from
nearly every nation in the world, with no relation to the
twelve tribes of the historical nation known as Israel. Any
attempts to state that there is, or will ever again be, a
race of Israelites are proven to be futile and of no force.
There is no Jewish race.
What should a follower of Christ think of Jews?
Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew, which is one
outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in
the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and
circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in
the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Followers of Christ ARE Jews! Followers of Christ have
not REPLACED Israel…the followers of Christ ARE Israel.
Spiritual Israel.
Final Thoughts
Jews do not practice "Old Testament religion;" they are
not almost Christians, lacking only acceptance of the
Messiah and the New Testament. They do not worship the true
God, not even the “God of the Old Testament” Jesus was quite
adamant: If they had believed Moses, they would believe Him.
(John 5:46-47) They don't believe the Old Testament either.
The religion of Judaism is a Talmudic faith, not Biblical.
Those who support, as the majority of premillenialists do,
the secular nation of Israel at this time, simply because
they are so-called Jews, and claim the premillenial system
relies on Israel as a pivotal aspect of itself, give succor
to apostates and enemies of Christ, and actually encourage
them in their unbelief.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/chosen.html
--
"Anybody who has been seriously engaged in scientific
work of any kind realises that over the entrance to
the gates of the temple of science are written the
words: Ye must have faith. It is a quality which the
scientist cannot dispense with." - Max Planck
.
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| User: "Sugien" |
|
| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
21 Jan 2008 11:46:03 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nbnap3pghi12akdell6rakk4tk0cjjsfb3@4ax.com...
Who Are God's Chosen People?
As you study this subject in light of this essay, you
may find that it contradicts what you have been taught.
If this is so, it is because you have been taught a
"system," not the scripture. What does the term "chosen
people" mean? Many think immediately of Israel. Is this
correct? What does the Bible say?
Who was Deuteronomy 7:6 (speaking of 'chosen people')
spoken to? Deuteronomy 6:3-4 reveals it was spoken to
Israel. At that time, Israel consisted of all those that
came out of Egypt with Moses (see Deuteronomy 7:8).
A very similar verse is Deuteronomy 14:2. In 1 Chronicles
16:13, Israel is called "His chosen ones": David wrote
Psalm 33:12; 105:6, 43. And Isaiah records these words
from the Lord: Isaiah 41:8-9; 43:10,20; 44:1. In Isaiah
48:12, the Lord refers to them as "My called." And Daniel
calls them "His chosen people" (Daniel 11:15).
From the above, it can be seen that the phrase,
"chosen people" definitely applied to Israel. But, what was
the composition of Old Testament Israel? According to
the Bible, Israel was made up of:
1) The descendants of Jacob (Exodus 1:1; Joshua 13:6, etc.),
And...
2) Those who joined Israel through circumcision and keeping
the law (Exodus 12:48ff).
Keeping the covenant was a requirement for all those who
wished to remain a part of Israel (Genesis 17:14, Exodus
12:15,19; 30:32,38; 31:14; Leviticus 7:20-21, 25,27;
17:4,9-10, 14; 18:29; 19:8; and Numbers 15:30-31).
These Scriptures, and many others, show that membership
in the nation of Israel was dependent on obedience to God's
commandments. To disobey God was to lose one's citizenship.
When most people think of Old Testament Israel, they
think exclusively in terms of Israel as a nation. Yet, this
is not the true Biblical meaning of "Israel". The name
"Israel" has always had a twofold significance: one
national, and the other religious. For example Exodus 19:6
and Amos 9:11-12 proclaims that the remnant of Israel
would be largely an entity of religious instead of national
destination. Isaiah says much the same thing (Isaiah
56:7-8).
The primary meaning of "Israel" in the Old Testament
stands for the religious covenant community, the people who
worship God in truth and Spirit. Secondarily, it denotes a
distinct ethnic group or nation which is called to become
spiritual Israel. Decisive for the Old Testament prophets
and their prophecies is the theological quality of the
'people of God,' not their ethnic and political
characteristics.
Contrary to the claims of Hal Lindsey, and other
dispensational authors (Charles Ryrie, etc.), the blessing
of Israel's election was not unconditional. When the
election service is withheld, the election loses its
meaning, and therefore fails. .If Israel ceased to
acknowledge God to be her Lord, then she declared that she
no longer wished to be His people. Her high calling to be
the 'Chosen People' was not the mark of Divine indulgence or
favoritism, but a summons to a task exacting and unceasing,
and election and task were so closely bound together that
she could not have one without the other."
Did Old Testament Israel lose her election? As Paul
would say, "God forbid!" The Old Testament prophesied in
many places that a "remnant" would be saved. The question
is: Of whom was this remnant to consist? According to
Jeremiah 31:31-34, the remnant would be made up of those who
"know the Lord," and whose sins would be forgiven completely
(unlike under the Old Covenant - Hebrews 10:1-4). This was
to be made possible through the initiation of a "new
covenant." This New Covenant (or "Testament" -KJV) was
ratified by Jesus at His crucifixion, shown to His disciples
in symbolic form in the Last Supper (Matthew 26:28, Mark
14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25).
Is New Testament Israel any different from Old Testament
Israel? The Israel of the New Covenant is made up of 1)
those descendants of Jacob who believed in the Messiah
(Matthew 10:6; 15:24; Acts 2:36-41; 21:20, etc.), and, 2)
those who joined Israel through spiritual circumcision and
the keeping of the new "law" (Romans 2:28-29; 13:10; 1
Timothy 1:5).
With the establishment of the New Covenant, physical
descent was no longer a determining factor for entrance into
Israel. Only those who believed in the Messiah could enter
or remain a part of Israel. Let us examine what the Bible
has to say on the subject in Jeremiah 11:16. Verse 17 says
this was directed to "the house of Israel, and the house of
Judah." Read what Hosea says of Israel in Hosea 14:6.
Paul picks up the olive tree motif in Romans 11:17-24.
He says those Jews who rejected the Messiah were themselves
rejected and "broken off" (or cut off, to use the Old
Testament term) from the "olive tree" of Israel (verse 20).
The apostle showed that the only possible way to remain a
citizen of Israel was to believe in Jesus as Messiah. This
citizenship was also offered to the Gentiles on the same
condition. If they would put their faith in the Messiah of
Israel, they would be made fellow citizens of Israel
(Ephesians 2:19). Christ created His church, not beside
Israel, but as the faithful remnant of Israel that inherits
the covenant promises and responsibilities. Christ's church
is not separated from the Israel of God, only from the
Christ-rejecting Jewish nation.
The identification of the church with Israel is explicit
in Peter's first epistle (1 Peter 2:9). Here, Peter
definitively states that those who "believe" in Christ Jesus
(1 Peter 2:7) were the "chosen race" and the "holy nation"
(1 Peter 2:9; compare Exodus 19:6; Deuteronomy 7:6; and
14:2). Only in Christ could Israel as a nation have remained
the true covenant people of God. God's covenant people are
no longer distinguished by racial or territorial
characteristics, but exclusively by their faith in Christ.
And the land we have inherited is a spiritual one. The
spiritual blessings of citizenship in the Israel of God are
ours as servants of Christ, but what of the "unconditional"
land promises of the so-called "Palestinian Covenant"?
Is present Israel a fulfillment of prophesy?
One of the most common assertions of the premillennial
dispensationalist today is that the formation of the State
of Israel in 1948 is proof that the Jews are still "God's
Chosen People," and that He still has prophetic plans for
them. (This has been asserted more vigorously than ever due
to the recent hostilities in the Middle East). It is claimed
that God was at work bringing the Jews back to their
"ancient homeland," and that they have a Biblical right to
claim Palestine as their own. Are these claims correct? Was
the formation of the State of Israel evidence of God's
blessing? Of God's election?
Just what Scriptures do dispensationalists use to
support these claims? How do they come to their conclusions?
As you may know already, the dispensationalist uses what he
calls a "literal hermeneutic." That is, he claims to
interpret the words of the Bible at face value,
understanding them in their "normal," everyday usage and
meaning. This extremely literal hermeneutic is then used to
"interpret" the prophecies of the Old Testament that speak
of the return of God's people to the Holy Land. However,
this literalism is also used as an excuse to ignore the
plain reinterpretation by the New Testament writers of these
very same prophecies. Even when the inspired writers of the
New Testament give a meaning to the Old Testament.
prophecies other than a "literal" one, the dispensationalist
will say that this is not the complete meaning, and that
these prophecies "remain to be realized for Israel."
One of the Scriptures the dispensationalist claims was
fulfilled by the 1948 formation of the State of Israel is
found in Ezekiel 36-37. This prophecy was given to Ezekiel
during the Babylonian captivity (Ezekiel 1:1-2), and
foretold the eventual return of Israel to their land. Tied
in with this prophecy was the prediction of the coming
Messiah (Ezekiel 38), and the inauguration of the New
Covenant. As we know from both secular history and the New
Testament, the people did return to the land and the Messiah
did come and establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28).
Despite this, dispensationalists deny fulfillment of either
of these prophecies, saying they found only a "partial
fulfillment" in Israel's return and Christ's first advent.
They further allege that the re-gathering of Jews to form
the current State of Israel is part of the final
fulfillment. They say the blessings of the "Palestinian
Covenant" are only now coming into existence. The promises
of such passages as Deuteronomy 30 are touted as "Scriptural
basis" for Israel's re-gathering. How should we answer such
claims?
According to Deuteronomy 30:1-8, a necessary condition
for the re-gathering of Israel to Palestine was returning to
the Lord (verses 2-3). Based on this clear passage of
Scripture, it can be definitely concluded that the State of
Israel, which now exists, was not formed as a result of the
blessings of this covenant (the "Palestinian Covenant" of
the Scofield Bible).
The Jews of 1948 (except for maybe a few isolated
individuals) did not turn to the Lord. And, to base the
formation of Israel upon their alleged "faithfulness" to
Judaism is to betray a fundamental misunderstanding of what
Judaism is. Some think the Jew of today has a special
advantage, perhaps even salvation without Christ, because
they believe in the God of the Old Testament, and follow the
Old Testament religion. This overlooks the fact that the
religion of the Old Testament was based on making sacrifices
for sins (Leviticus 17:11). It also ignores the statements
of the New Testament that there is absolutely NO salvation
outside Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:10-12), and that the Old
Testament religion was no longer efficacious (Hebrews 7-10).
The Lord of the New Testament is Jesus. This revelation
casts light on who the Lord of the Old Testament is. For
example, Peter quotes Joel 2:32 as being fulfilled in Jesus
(Acts 2:21).
What shall we answer when the dispensationalist claims
the existence of the State of Israel today is "proof" of
God's covenant blessing upon them? With the clear backing of
Scripture, we can say, "NO!" We can then point to
Deuteronomy 30:1-8 as proof that the Israel of today is
definitely not the Israel of the Bible! But, what about the
land promised to Abraham?
Paul, in citing the promise to Abraham, does not limit
the territory to Palestine: It was NOT through the law that
Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would
be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that
comes by faith (Romans 4:13). This is an extension of the
statement of Jesus in Matthew 5:5, in which the meek shall
inherit not merely Palestine, but the earth. As you can see,
the inheritance is for Abraham and his offspring. The
dispensationalist believes Jewish people are entitled to the
inheritance based on their racial extraction or ethnic
heritage. But, Paul counters this idea in Galatians 3:7,29.
In case he hasn't made it clear enough, Paul reiterates for
those who expect some special privilege for physical
descendants of Abraham: "Now to Abraham's and his seed the
promises were made. He does not say, And to seeds' as of
many, but as of one, And to your seed, who is Christ"
(Galatians 3:16). The only way to inherit anything is in
Christ! The Jewish leaders who came to John the Baptist
thought the Kingdom was theirs automatically by virtue of
their heritage. (Matthew 3:9). The Apostle Paul states the
nature of true Jewishness in Romans 2:28,29; 9:6-8; 11:5-7.
The full scope of Israel's prophets was not
nationalistic, but universal, with an increasing cosmic
dimension which took in heaven and earth (Isaiah 65:17;
24:21-23). The writer of Hebrews assures them Abraham was
not looking merely to Palestine for fulfillment of the
promises. He looked for "a better country," and a city
"whose builder and maker is God" (Hebrews 11:10,16). The
continuity of the Old Testament terms and Middle East images
in Hebrews assures the church that God's promise has neither
failed nor been postponed, but is experienced now in Christ
(Hebrews 6:5), And, the land promises made to Abraham are
fulfilled in the universal Kingdom of God.
In conclusion, we have studied the subject of who God's
Chosen People are, and have found that, according to the
Bible, Israel is now composed of all those who believe in
Jesus as Messiah. It is not correct, therefore, to state
that the church has REPLACED Israel. Rather, the church IS
the continuity of the Old Testament Israel of God; it has
only replaced the Jewish nation. There is no more "Jew" and
"Gentile" racial distinctions. All nations are now a part of
Spiritual Israel in Christ. Christ's kingdom is here now in
fullness. All (who were a part of the true spiritual) Israel
were saved and given the inheritance (Romans 11:26).
With the advent of the war in the Middle East, many
people are wondering what is taking place in a prophetic
sense. As preterists, we can say with assurance that the
events now taking place are NOT a fulfillment of prophecy.
We know that all prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70, at which
time the New Covenant was fully established, making the
Kingdom available to all who would believe in Jesus as
Savior (Messiah). Some emotionalism is understandable in
time of war. However, we need not fear the Great Tribulation
or being "left behind" in the Rapture. We know by the time
limitations recorded in the New Testament that these things
have already occurred, and we are living in the new
spiritual promised land.
Speaking of Jews, here is what the scripture says:
Isaiah 65:15, "And ye shall leave your name for a
curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and
call his servants by another name:"
Matthew 21:43, "Therefore say I unto you, The
kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a
nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
The above two verses were fulfilled in 70 AD, when the
Jews were slayed, the temple burned down, and the Kingdom of
God was taken from the Jews and given to all who believe in
Christ.
Other Proof that there is no Jewish Race Today
After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, the nation
of Israel, after the flesh, was scattered throughout the
earth, and lost all tribal relations. This scattering was
made immutable due to the fact that all tribal genealogical
records were destroyed with the Temple in A.D. 70. The
simple fact is that there is no existing Jewish race. Not
only the Bible confirms this (as already revealed), but the
writings of worldly authorities, including Jewish resources
as well. Consider the following quotations:
The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973): "The Jews As A Race:
The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to
the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropocentric
measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world
indicate that they differ greatly from one another with
respect to all the important physical characteristics" (vol.
12, page 1054).
Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971): "It is a common
assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even
in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of
today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily
recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin
and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in
the course of their formation as a people and a nation they
had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from
people moving into the general area they occupied. This had
taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to
Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .
"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic
attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any
unified racial classification of them a contradiction in
terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion
that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced
by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in
appearance from the surrounding population. That many can't
be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for
some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon"
(Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).
Encyclopedia Americana (1986): "Racial and Ethnic
Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a
distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every
country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time,
their physical traits came to approximate those of the
indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct
racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among
the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary
miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism"
(Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).
Collier's Encyclopedia (1977): "A common error and
persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a
'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the
standpoint of both physical and historical tradition.
Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are
by no means uniform in physical character and that they
nearly always reflect the physical and mental
characteristics of the people among whom they live"
(Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).
Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia (1970): "In 1970 the
Israeli Knesset adopted legislation defining a Jew as one
born of a Jewish mother or a convert" (vol. 14, p. 214).
H.G. Wells: "There can be little doubt that the
scattered Phoenicians in Spain and Africa and throughout the
Mediterranean, speaking as they did a language closely akin
to Hebrew and being deprived of their authentic political
rights, became proselytes to Judaism. For phases of vigorous
proselytism alternated with phases of exclusive jealousy in
Jewish history. On one occasion the Idumeans, being
conquered, were all forcibly made Jews. There were Arab
tribes who were Jews in the time of Muhammad, and a Turkish
people who were mainly Jews in South Russia in the ninth
century. Judaism is indeed the reconstructed political ideal
of many shattered peoples - mainly Semitic.... The main part
of Jewry never was in Judea and had never come out of Judea"
(The Outline of History, p. 505).
John Bray: "Many Christians do not know that the vast
majority of so-called Jews in the world today are the
Ashkenazim Jews, while the remainder of them are the
Sephardim Jews. The Ashkenazim Jews have as their background
not the nation of Israel but a country called Khazaria,
which country at one time was the largest country in Europe.
The settlers of Khazaria were Turks and Huns. In A.D. 740
King Bulan of Khazaria decided to adopt the Judaistic
religion for his country. A number of Jews were already
living there. So he converted to Judaism, along with all his
officials, and whole nation ended up being known as a nation
of Jews. In 970, Russia came in and dominated the situation,
and the Khazars were scattered, many of them going down into
Poland and Lithuania. Where at the dawn of our modern
civilization the largest concentration of Jews were found.
Today, the largest percentage of so-called Jews in the world
have as their background this group of people" (This
information is fully documented in detail in John Bray's
book, Israel in Bible Prophecy).
Today, being a Jew simply means that one is of the
Judaistic religion or a convert to it, or else in a
"brotherhood" of those who are. Therefore, being a Jew has
nothing to do with race. We are familiar with a number of
notable figures, such as Sammy Davis, Jr., Elizabeth Taylor,
Madonna, and Tom Arnold, in fact, who became Jews by
conversion to the religion of Judaism.
Therefore, we can clearly and confidently assert that
there is no such thing as a Jewish race, nor ever can there
be. Since the fall of Jerusalem, and the scattering of the
nation of Israel in the first century, the nation calling
itself Israel has consisted of a collection of people from
nearly every nation in the world, with no relation to the
twelve tribes of the historical nation known as Israel. Any
attempts to state that there is, or will ever again be, a
race of Israelites are proven to be futile and of no force.
There is no Jewish race.
What should a follower of Christ think of Jews?
Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew, which is one
outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in
the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and
circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in
the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Followers of Christ ARE Jews! Followers of Christ have
not REPLACED Israel.the followers of Christ ARE Israel.
Spiritual Israel.
Final Thoughts
Jews do not practice "Old Testament religion;" they are
not almost Christians, lacking only acceptance of the
Messiah and the New Testament. They do not worship the true
God, not even the "God of the Old Testament" Jesus was quite
adamant: If they had believed Moses, they would believe Him.
(John 5:46-47) They don't believe the Old Testament either.
The religion of Judaism is a Talmudic faith, not Biblical.
Those who support, as the majority of premillenialists do,
the secular nation of Israel at this time, simply because
they are so-called Jews, and claim the premillenial system
relies on Israel as a pivotal aspect of itself, give succor
to apostates and enemies of Christ, and actually encourage
them in their unbelief.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/chosen.html
what are your thoughts on the British and American people and that they are
the decedents of the lost 10 tribes ?
--
From the Desk of Paul CKC
............ /}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
-------- \}
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
22 Jan 2008 07:37:19 PM |
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On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:46:03 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
Who Are God's Chosen People?
What are your thoughts on the British and American
people and that they are the decedents of the lost
10 tribes ?
Thank you for keeping the message intact.
But since yours was not an attempt to distract
from what was said, snippage would have been
okay, sir. :)
As for your question, I have looked into it
and frankly, I don't buy it. But I won't call
myself an expert on that specific thing either.
Is it possible that some of it is true? I don't
know, maybe. But I don't buy the whole
concept put forth by that brand of Futurism,
meaning the doctrine that they're putting
out there regarding that.
--
Christians are the light of the world, but the switch
has to be turned on.
.
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| User: "Sugien" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
22 Jan 2008 11:17:47 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hd6dp3to620jkag1jv1reoa9gk1k7cfu2d@4ax.com...
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:46:03 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
Who Are God's Chosen People?
What are your thoughts on the British and American
people and that they are the decedents of the lost
10 tribes ?
Thank you for keeping the message intact.
But since yours was not an attempt to distract
from what was said, snippage would have been
okay, sir. :)
As for your question, I have looked into it
and frankly, I don't buy it. But I won't call
myself an expert on that specific thing either.
Is it possible that some of it is true? I don't
My feeling exactly that some of it *could* or *might* be, expressly when I
see in some of the language of the last book of the bible what could be
describing the USA as Babylon.
know, maybe. But I don't buy the whole
concept put forth by that brand of Futurism,
meaning the doctrine that they're putting
out there regarding that.
Likewise I have studied on it *some* and have concluded that I can not
completely prove or show to myself that it is 100% wrong or right for that
matter; but I have decided to do more study on it when I get back round to
studying revelation in conjunction with Daniel.
--
Christians are the light of the world, but the switch
has to be turned on.
I like that tag line, is it yours and if so, mind if I use it and if not
where did you get it and are there more<bg>
--
Judge not each man by his gifts and skills, but instead by
whether or not he uses those skills for good or evil
or chooses apathy and does not use them at all
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 12:16:46 AM |
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On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:17:47 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hd6dp3to620jkag1jv1reoa9gk1k7cfu2d@4ax.com...
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:46:03 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
Who Are God's Chosen People?
What are your thoughts on the British and American
people and that they are the decedents of the lost
10 tribes ?
Thank you for keeping the message intact.
But since yours was not an attempt to distract
from what was said, snippage would have been
okay, sir. :)
As for your question, I have looked into it
and frankly, I don't buy it. But I won't call
myself an expert on that specific thing either.
Is it possible that some of it is true? I don't
My feeling exactly that some of it *could* or *might* be, expressly when I
see in some of the language of the last book of the bible what could be
describing the USA as Babylon.
I disagree. That's just newspaper prophecy.
Babylon was Jerusalem. Only it qualified.
--
"Faith is not an intellectual belief. Faith is a belief
with legs on it." - Adrian Rogers
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 05:53:54 AM |
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"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:tsmdp3lnap72u9c6fnactmr475mi63uhgh@4ax.com...
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:17:47 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hd6dp3to620jkag1jv1reoa9gk1k7cfu2d@4ax.com...
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:46:03 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
Who Are God's Chosen People?
What are your thoughts on the British and American
people and that they are the decedents of the lost
10 tribes ?
Thank you for keeping the message intact.
But since yours was not an attempt to distract
from what was said, snippage would have been
okay, sir. :)
As for your question, I have looked into it
and frankly, I don't buy it. But I won't call
myself an expert on that specific thing either.
Is it possible that some of it is true? I don't
My feeling exactly that some of it *could* or *might* be, expressly when I
see in some of the language of the last book of the bible what could be
describing the USA as Babylon.
I disagree. That's just newspaper prophecy.
Babylon was Jerusalem. Only it qualified.
???
Nonsense. "Babylon" was Rome: John called Rome "Babylon" because it was just
the latest installment of the Assyro-Babylonian
Chaldean/Mithraist/Zoroastrian mystery religion, as the Roman soldiers
brought its eclectic religion back to Rome and turned it into the emperor
worshipping temple cult which opposed the Gospel.
Ike
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 06:20:01 AM |
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On Jan 23, 3:53=A0am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:tsmdp3lnap72u9c6fnactmr475mi63uhgh@4ax.com...
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:17:47 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryan...@gmail.com> said the following:
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hd6dp3to620jkag1jv1reoa9gk1k7cfu2d@4ax.com...
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:46:03 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryan...@gmail.com> said the following:
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
Who Are God's Chosen People?
What are your thoughts on the British and American
people and that they are the decedents of the lost
10 tribes ?
Thank you for keeping the message intact.
But since yours was not an attempt to distract
from what was said, snippage would have been
okay, sir. :)
As for your question, I have looked into it
and frankly, I don't buy it. =A0But I won't call
myself an expert on that specific thing either.
Is it possible that some of it is true? =A0I don't
My feeling exactly that some of it *could* or *might* be, expressly when=
I
see in some of the language of the last book of the bible what could be
describing the USA as Babylon.
I disagree. =A0That's just newspaper prophecy.
Babylon was Jerusalem. =A0Only it qualified.
???
Nonsense. "Babylon" was Rome: John called Rome "Babylon" because it was ju=
st
the latest installment of the Assyro-Babylonian
Chaldean/Mithraist/Zoroastrian mystery religion, as the Roman soldiers
brought its eclectic religion back to Rome and turned it into the emperor
worshipping temple cult which opposed the Gospel.
Ike
Babylon is everything outside your padded cell, Ike.
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 07:02:10 AM |
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<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:6fcf0792-76c7-4e5e-924a-f27266b46720@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 3:53 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
[snip]
Nonsense. "Babylon" was Rome: John called Rome "Babylon" because it was
just
the latest installment of the Assyro-Babylonian
Chaldean/Mithraist/Zoroastrian mystery religion, as the Roman soldiers
brought its eclectic religion back to Rome and turned it into the
emperor
worshipping temple cult which opposed the Gospel.
Ike
Babylon is everything outside your padded cell, Ike.
No, it's inside your heart, just like the prophets said would happen (which
is why you attack Revelation--you KNOW it's YOU the book is condemning).
Ike
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 08:59:33 AM |
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On Jan 23, 5:02=A0am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:6fcf0792-76c7-4e5e-924a-f27266b46720@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 3:53 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
[snip]
Nonsense. "Babylon" was Rome: John called Rome "Babylon" because it was=
just
the latest installment of the Assyro-Babylonian
Chaldean/Mithraist/Zoroastrian mystery religion, as the Roman soldiers
=A0brought its eclectic religion back to Rome and turned it into the
emperor
=A0worshipping temple cult which opposed the Gospel.
=A0Ike
Babylon is everything outside your padded cell, Ike.
No, it's inside your heart, just like the prophets said would happen (whic=
h
is why you attack Revelation--you KNOW it's YOU the book is condemning).
Ike
I would be honored. Let the book know that I condemn it, as well.
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 09:56:27 AM |
|
|
<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:a0f912e5-6512-4644-8798-69f699033fb1@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 5:02 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:6fcf0792-76c7-4e5e-924a-f27266b46720@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 3:53 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
[snip]
Nonsense. "Babylon" was Rome: John called Rome "Babylon" because it was
just
the latest installment of the Assyro-Babylonian
Chaldean/Mithraist/Zoroastrian mystery religion, as the Roman soldiers
brought its eclectic religion back to Rome and turned it into the
emperor
worshipping temple cult which opposed the Gospel.
Ike
Babylon is everything outside your padded cell, Ike.
No, it's inside your heart, just like the prophets said would happen
(which
is why you attack Revelation--you KNOW it's YOU the book is condemning).
Ike
I would be honored. Let the book know that I condemn it, as well.
Let the Word know you condemn Him? He knows that already--He says "He
wins--you lose."
Ike
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 10:53:25 AM |
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On Jan 23, 7:56=A0am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:a0f912e5-6512-4644-8798-69f699033fb1@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 5:02 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:6fcf0792-76c7-4e5e-924a-f27266b46720@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...=
On Jan 23, 3:53 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
[snip]
Nonsense. "Babylon" was Rome: John called Rome "Babylon" because it w=
as
just
the latest installment of the Assyro-Babylonian
Chaldean/Mithraist/Zoroastrian mystery religion, as the Roman soldier=
s
brought its eclectic religion back to Rome and turned it into the
emperor
worshipping temple cult which opposed the Gospel.
Ike
Babylon is everything outside your padded cell, Ike.
No, it's inside your heart, just like the prophets said would happen
(which
is why you attack Revelation--you KNOW it's YOU the book is condemning).=
Ike
I would be honored. =A0Let the book know that I condemn it, as well.
Let the Word know you condemn Him? He knows that already--He says "He
wins--you lose."
Ike
You lie again Ike. Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye
think ye have eternal life: And they are they which testify of me."
John 5:39. I say the same to you modern day hypocrites. Search them
for they speak of me and all who have had genuine spiritual experience
of G-D. I am Jehoshua Moshiach. He is in me and my life is in Him.
You blaspheme the very LORD you falsely profess.
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 02:13:55 PM |
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<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:b293adeb-c29d-47b4-8c42-c1822646b794@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
I am Jehoshua Moshiach.
No, what you are is another endtime lunatic, just as Jesus warned would
come...
"And many shall come saying, "I am he,"...go ye not after them."
Ike
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| User: "Mikal119" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 09:33:32 AM |
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On Jan 23, 8:59 am, wrote:
On Jan 23, 5:02 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:6fcf0792-76c7-4e5e-924a-f27266b46720@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 3:53 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
[snip]
Nonsense. "Babylon" was Rome: John called Rome "Babylon" because it was
just
the latest installment of the Assyro-Babylonian
Chaldean/Mithraist/Zoroastrian mystery religion, as the Roman soldiers
brought its eclectic religion back to Rome and turned it into the
emperor
worshipping temple cult which opposed the Gospel.
Ike
Babylon is everything outside your padded cell, Ike.
No, it's inside your heart, just like the prophets said would happen (which
is why you attack Revelation--you KNOW it's YOU the book is condemning).
Ike
I would be honored. Let the book know that I condemn it, as well.
"Despair, in short, seeks its own environment as surely as water finds
its own level." -
-- A. Alvarez
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
24 Jan 2008 11:52:14 AM |
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On Jan 21, 7:05 pm, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
Who Are God's Chosen People?
God's Chosen are those who choose God. Any other definition leads us
into the culdesac of presuming God would create humanity and then
abandon humanity to the devil, all but a remnant whom God then
"chose."
Such concept portrays a god under siege from his own creation; a god
pleading with humanity to recognize his existence; a god jealous of
human attention given to stone idols and wooden amulets.
Such a god would be poor stuff, indeed. The descent of such a god
from deity to dust is shown in the Bible: to exterminate the species,
God must drown them rather than just un-creating them; to evacuate
Canaan, the God must coerce the Hebrews into holocaustalizing the
inhabitants; to travel with the Hebrews, an arc must be fashioned to
carry god from place to place.
God chose to bring into existence all who are. We are all "chosen."
Any other definition is an abomination and perversion of the message
of Jesus.
TCross
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
24 Jan 2008 12:27:40 PM |
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On Jan 24, 9:52=A0am, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 21, 7:05 pm, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
Who Are God's Chosen People?
God's Chosen are those who choose God. =A0Any other definition leads us
into the culdesac of presuming God would create humanity and then
abandon humanity to the devil, all but a remnant whom God then
"chose."
Such concept portrays a god under siege from his own creation; a god
pleading with humanity to recognize his existence; a god jealous of
human attention given to stone idols and wooden amulets.
Such a god would be poor stuff, indeed. =A0The descent of such a god
from deity to dust is shown in the Bible: to exterminate the species,
God must drown them rather than just un-creating them; to evacuate
Canaan, the God must coerce the Hebrews into holocaustalizing the
inhabitants; to travel with the Hebrews, an arc must be fashioned to
carry god from place to place.
God chose to bring into existence all who are. =A0We are all "chosen."
Any other definition is an abomination and perversion of the message
of Jesus.
TCross
I think it is safe to say that the Torah is the record of the
interactions of fallen men and women with a fallen and broken G-D. Is
it possible that the schism within G-D was caused by the fall of Adam
and Eve and the fall of the being known as the Serpent? I think that
is one possibility that is probable. The Torah is truly a Gothic
horror story, a nightmare of humanity. However, the question is,
"Does it contain something essential that mankind must learn from and
process before it can move forward toward its ultimate liberation?" I
think the answer here is a resounding YES!
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| User: "guardian Snow" |
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| Title: Anti Semitic "Pastor" Dave ignores the Bible. |
21 Jan 2008 09:33:14 PM |
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Once again Dave spams the world with his false message. This one has
been reposted at least a dozen times and he always ignores the clear
teachings of scriptures.
Exo 31:13 =E2=80=9CAnd you, speak to the children of Yisra=E2=80=99=C4=95l, =
saying, =E2=80=98My
Sabbaths you are to guard, by all means, for it is a sign1 between Me
and you throughout your generations, to know that I, =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=
=94, am setting
you apart. Footnote: 1The only sign of =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=94 setting us a=
part, the only
sign of the everlasting covenant, is His Sabbaths, one of them being
the seventh day Sabbath. This is repeated in Ezek. 20:12 & 20.
Eze 20:20 =E2=80=98And set apart My Sabbaths, and they shall be a sign betwe=
en
Me and you, to know that I am =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=94 your Elohim.=E2=80=99=
Shalom,
Snow
Successful people ask better questions, and as a result, they get
better answers.
Tony Robbins
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| User: "Dannyil" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 10:47:04 AM |
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The only question I have is this:
You agree then that the prophecies in Ezekiel 37-38 are yet to be
fulfilled. If this is true
Then you agree then, that Jesus did not fulfill these.
If this is true, you have two options, either reject Jesus as the
Messiah, or explain that
there is a second coming. This second approach really, accepts the
first approach.
Meaning - you agree that Jesus did not fulfill the criteria as laid
out in Ezekiel 37-38.
You agree that there is no reason to consider him as the Messiah than
anyone else.
You are forced to reject that Jesus has any claim to be the Messiah,
any more than
anyone else.
Danny
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 10:58:43 AM |
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On Jan 23, 8:47=A0am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:
The only question I have is this:
You agree then that the prophecies in Ezekiel 37-38 are yet to be
fulfilled. =A0If this is true
Then you agree then, that Jesus did not fulfill these.
If this is true, you have two options, either reject Jesus as the
Messiah, or explain that
there is a second coming. =A0This second approach really, accepts the
first approach.
Meaning - you agree that Jesus did not fulfill the criteria as laid
out in Ezekiel 37-38.
You agree that there is no reason to consider him as the Messiah than
anyone else.
You are forced to reject that Jesus has any claim to be the Messiah,
any more than
anyone else.
Danny
Ezekiel 37 is the big embarrassment for Zionists everywhere. It says
Jews cannot go back to Israel until the dead are raised, in particular
King David himself. The entire Torah is the history of the struggle
of the Jewish people with fallen angels, who impersonated the LORD. I
understand it in that context. It is a psychotic episode in the
history of mankind, but one that is extremely important because it
extended the boundaries of the real beyond the mere material existence.
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| User: "Dannyil" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 11:15:24 AM |
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I am sorry, I don't quite comprehend what you're saying.
Danny
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| User: "Dannyil" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 11:19:24 AM |
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Also, this question was really addressed to Pastor Dave
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 01:24:37 PM |
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On Jan 23, 9:19=A0am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, this question was really addressed to Pastor Dave
He is easier pickin's. If you debate me, you will lose.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 02:16:14 PM |
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<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3b461646-6b6b-4123-ab5f-e6653639cb72@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 9:19 am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, this question was really addressed to Pastor Dave
He is easier pickin's. If you debate me, you will lose.
HA!
It's more like "never wrestle with a pig: Everyone gets dirty and the pig
loves the attention." One cannot argue with the insane--forensic argument
has rules and the insane don't.
Ike
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 02:18:47 PM |
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On Jan 23, 12:16=A0pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3b461646-6b6b-4123-ab5f-e6653639cb72@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 9:19 am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, this question was really addressed to Pastor Dave
He is easier pickin's. =A0If you debate me, you will lose.
HA!
It's more like "never wrestle with a pig: Everyone gets dirty and the pig
loves the attention." One cannot argue with the insane--forensic argument
has rules and the insane don't.
Ike
Big lie, Ike. I am the only one making substantive arguments, which
you simply cannot answer.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 07:28:58 PM |
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<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:7ab9defc-d442-4983-bc30-d3d70d9e7bb2@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 12:16 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3b461646-6b6b-4123-ab5f-e6653639cb72@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 9:19 am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, this question was really addressed to Pastor Dave
He is easier pickin's. If you debate me, you will lose.
HA!
It's more like "never wrestle with a pig: Everyone gets dirty and the pig
loves the attention." One cannot argue with the insane--forensic argument
has rules and the insane don't.
Ike
Big lie, Ike. I am the only one making substantive arguments, which
you simply cannot answer.
[chuckle]
Ike
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| User: "The Simplicity" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 07:45:14 PM |
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Israel is still God chosen people
Go to http://gracethrufaith.com/
and ask all your quetion
Replacement Theology. This view holds that when the Jews rejected the
Messiah, all the promises to Israel were transferred to the Church. It's at
the root of much of Christian anti-Semitism and is held by a significant
portion of the main line protestant church as well as their more extreme
counter parts in the Christian white supremacy movement.
Advocates of Replacement Theology have frequently departed from a literal
interpretation of Scripture, especially where the Old Testament is
concerned, and in the New Testament they often re-interpret passages about
Israel, saying they're really written to the Church. Therefore, offering a
satisfactory rebuttal is often difficult. But there are a number of passages
that clearly deny its validity, and if you take God at His Word, you'll
reject Replacement Theology. Jeremiah 31:35-37 is representative.
This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who
decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that
its waves roar— the LORD Almighty is his name: "Only if these decrees vanish
from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever
cease to be a nation before me." This is what the LORD says: "Only if the
heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be
searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they
have done," declares the LORD.
And in the New Testament, there's Romans 11:25-27.
"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may
not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full
number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it
is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness
away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their
sins."
This sounds pretty unconditional to me. There are literally scores of other
similar promises.
As far as prophecies that cannot be fulfilled, this idea goes against the
very heart of God's most powerful claim to authority. The way He validates
Himself as being worthy of our obedience to Him is by His faithfulness in
keeping His promises to us. You've staked your eternal destiny on this.
Listen to Isaiah 46:8-10.
"Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. Remember the
former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God,
and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from
ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I
will do all that I please."
And where the Temple and Daniel's 70 weeks come in, they've again
reinterpreted the passage to say that all were fulfilled in history and
there is no coming 70th week. If we're reading the signs of the times
correctly, we'll soon see that they're mistaken.
No matter what they say, advocates of Replacement Theology are asking us to
believe that God didn't know that Israel would disobey Him and therefore had
to come up with a plan B when they did. They say that Israel's
unfaithfulness to Him justifies His unfaithfulness to them. If so, what's to
prevent Him from changing His mind about us? The Churchy has certainly been
unfaithful. Like I said, if you take God at His Word, you'll reject
Replacement Theology.
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uRRlj.2234$NU6.596@trndny01...
<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:7ab9defc-d442-4983-bc30-d3d70d9e7bb2@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 12:16 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3b461646-6b6b-4123-ab5f-e6653639cb72@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 9:19 am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, this question was really addressed to Pastor Dave
He is easier pickin's. If you debate me, you will lose.
HA!
It's more like "never wrestle with a pig: Everyone gets dirty and the pig
loves the attention." One cannot argue with the insane--forensic argument
has rules and the insane don't.
Ike
Big lie, Ike. I am the only one making substantive arguments, which
you simply cannot answer.
[chuckle]
Ike
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
23 Jan 2008 08:40:32 PM |
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"The Simplicity" <abdelage@canada.com> wrote in message
news:4797edc2$0$1587$4c56cdcf@news.ripnet.com...
Israel is still God chosen people
But they are not "all Israel that are of Israel," and there are "Jews who
are not Jews" dominating Israel, even now.
Go to http://gracethrufaith.com/
and ask all your quetion
Replacement Theology. This view holds that when the Jews rejected the
Messiah, all the promises to Israel were transferred to the Church. It's
at the root of much of Christian anti-Semitism and is held by a
significant portion of the main line protestant church as well as their
more extreme counter parts in the Christian white supremacy movement.
Advocates of Replacement Theology have frequently departed from a literal
interpretation of Scripture, especially where the Old Testament is
concerned, and in the New Testament they often re-interpret passages about
Israel, saying they're really written to the Church. Therefore, offering a
satisfactory rebuttal is often difficult. But there are a number of
passages that clearly deny its validity, and if you take God at His Word,
you'll reject Replacement Theology. Jeremiah 31:35-37 is representative.
This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who
decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that
its waves roar— the LORD Almighty is his name: "Only if these decrees
vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel
ever cease to be a nation before me." This is what the LORD says: "Only if
the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below
be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all
they have done," declares the LORD.
And in the New Testament, there's Romans 11:25-27.
"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you
may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the
full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved,
as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn
godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take
away their sins."
This sounds pretty unconditional to me. There are literally scores of
other similar promises.
"All Israel" in this passage is Whole Israel, i.e. the acceptable part of
the Israel that "was" and the acceptable part of Israel that "is."
Go back and look at the discussion leading up to this statement: Paul says
that part of Israel that "was" is cast down, making room for the "branches"
of Israel that "is" to be grafted in.
As far as prophecies that cannot be fulfilled, this idea goes against the
very heart of God's most powerful claim to authority. The way He validates
Himself as being worthy of our obedience to Him is by His faithfulness in
keeping His promises to us. You've staked your eternal destiny on this.
Listen to Isaiah 46:8-10.
"Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. Remember the
former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am
God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please."
And where the Temple and Daniel's 70 weeks come in, they've again
reinterpreted the passage to say that all were fulfilled in history and
there is no coming 70th week. If we're reading the signs of the times
correctly, we'll soon see that they're mistaken.
There is no coming "70th week." That's a concoction of the cult of the
Plymouth Brethren.
Prophecy is fullfilled in statements, NOT segments.
There are SEVEN prophecies of the Old Testament that speak of prophetic
events in terms of seventy YEARS, not weeks, and even Daniel said as much.
And what's missing from the first iteration of Daniel's prophecy?
70 years.
No matter what they say, advocates of Replacement Theology are asking us
to believe that God didn't know that Israel would disobey Him and
therefore had to come up with a plan B when they did. They say that
Israel's unfaithfulness to Him justifies His unfaithfulness to them. If
so, what's to prevent Him from changing His mind about us? The Churchy has
certainly been unfaithful. Like I said, if you take God at His Word,
you'll reject Replacement Theology.
It's not replacement theology.
It's not everyone who calls themselves a "Jew" theology.
It's grafting theology, God keeping half the branches of the Israel that
"was" and half from the Israel that "is" to form a NEW Whole Israel
altogether.
Now, there MIGHT be some of God's Israel in Israel now, but, by and large,
the Zionists fools in Israel now are NOT God's Israel--they are the
Pharisees, Sadducees, and Herodian whom Jesus condemned as frauds in His
day.
But God's Israel is hidden in the nations.
Ike
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Who Are God's Chosen People? |
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