| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
20 Nov 2007 07:17:40 AM |
| Object: |
Who IS Israel |
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mistery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
--
To email me, just remove the underscores.
If your bible is falling apart, chances are your life
is staying together.
.
|
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
22 Nov 2007 03:37:11 AM |
|
|
"Pastor Knave" < SATAN_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hjn5k3p7n975fdljgvghtid6eo8ksuvn2g@4ax.com...
Who IS Israel:
Who isn't: Prterists: 2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess
not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the
antichrist.
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
.
|
|
|
| User: "guardian Snow" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
22 Nov 2007 04:52:16 AM |
|
|
On Nov 22, 8:37 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
"Pastor Knave" < SATAN_@_gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:hjn5k3p7n975fdl=
jgvghtid6eo8ksuvn2g@4ax.com...
Who IS Israel:
Who isn't: Prterists: 2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confe=
ss
not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the
antichrist.
His,
--http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a=
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
Good for you Fred. I will stand by his post and second it. I keep
wondering why we see the same old recycled topics being reposted again
and again. I mean, with respect to PD and GK, why do they insist on
starting a hundred boring topics all at the same time?
We pretty much all have the same answers as the last time these post
were put up and at least you should put them in the same thread to
recycle our old answers!
Exo 31:12 And =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=94 spoke to Mosheh, saying,
Exo 31:13 =E2=80=9CAnd you, speak to the children of Yisra=E2=80=99=C4=95l, =
saying, =E2=80=98My
Sabbaths you are to guard, by all means, for it is a sign1 between Me
and you throughout your generations, to know that I, =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=
=94, am setting
you apart. Footnote: 1The only sign of =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=94 setting us a=
part, the only
sign of the everlasting covenant, is His Sabbaths, one of them being
the seventh day Sabbath. This is repeated in Ezek. 20:12 & 20.
Exo 31:14 =E2=80=98And you shall guard the Sabbath, for it is set-apart to
you. Everyone who profanes it shall certainly be put to death, for
anyone who does work on it, that being shall be cut off from among his
people.
Exo 31:15 =E2=80=98Six days work is done, and on the seventh is a Sabbath of=
rest, set-apart to =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=94. Everyone doing work on the Sabb=
ath day shall
certainly be put to death.
Exo 31:16 =E2=80=98And the children of Yisra=E2=80=99=C4=95l shall guard the=
Sabbath, to
observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as an everlasting
covenant.
Exo 31:17 =E2=80=98Between Me and the children of Yisra=E2=80=99=C4=95l it i=
s a sign
forever. For in six days =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=94 made the heavens and the e=
arth, and on
the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.=E2=80=99 =E2=80=9D
Exo 31:18 And when He had ended speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He
gave Mosheh two tablets of the Witness, tablets of stone, written with
the finger of Elohim.
Same answer different day.
Snow
I learned never to empty the well of my writing, but always to stop
when there was still something there in the deep part of the well, and
let it refill at night from the springs that fed it.
Ernest Hemingway
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
22 Nov 2007 06:08:08 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:52:16 -0800 (PST), guardian Snow
<snowpheonix@eck.net.au> said the following:
On Nov 22, 8:37 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
"Pastor Knave" < SATAN_@_gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:hjn5k3p7n975fdljgvghtid6eo8ksuvn2g@4ax.com...
Who IS Israel:
Who isn't: Prterists: 2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess
not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the
antichrist.
His,
--http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
Good for you Fred. I will stand by his post and second it.
Of course you do! No surprise there! You love
watching an attack!
I keep wondering why we see the same old recycled topics
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you never talk about
a topic more than once. My bad!
--
"Why is it socially reprehensible for a man to leave
a baby fatherless, but courageous, even admirable,
for a woman to have a baby whom she knows will be so?"
- Penelope Leach
.
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|
|
|
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| User: "Gunny Freedom" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
20 Nov 2007 04:13:15 PM |
|
|
In article <hjn5k3p7n975fdljgvghtid6eo8ksuvn2g@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mistery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC to debate Preterism. After
only 2-3 rounds of discussion, he abandons any attempt to debate the
theology and the facts, and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to "declare victory" simply
by overwhelming us with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
Note especially in the list below, that all 40 messages were posted
within the span of 6 minutes:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PING: CHUCK - What Will You Say? 42
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Ancient Quotes - Church Fathers? 292
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Resurrection of the Dead 771
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
REVELATION: WHEN WAS IT WRITTEN??? 534
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: Preterist Statements 655
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 1 46
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 2 360
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Significance of 70 AD 456
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: WILL YOU LIVE UP TO YOUR WORD OR NOT??? 172
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Irenaeus: 70 AD & Abrahamic Covenant 117
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Comments by Epiphanes 44
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cool Info with Lots of Links to Writings Throughout Time 15
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Israel and the Church 72
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Justin Martyr: Sword , Plowshares and the Kingdom 59
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Clement: Abomination of Desolation 52
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Origen: Literal Interpretation Method 63
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Got Preterism? The Church Fathers' Did! 169
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eusebius: Fulfilled 21
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Shake, Ratte and Roll! 336
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
* Christ and the Resurrection of the Flesh * 895
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cloud Coming Recorded by Historians 54
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Church History 82
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Seige of Jerusalem 830
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: AND HERE IS HOW IT ENDED BETWEEN US!!!
386 11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Historical Church Says Christ Returned! 322
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM 224
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who IS Israel 184
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
IF CHRIST HAS NOT COME! 407
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Preterism, Society and the Modern Church; Tackling the Taboo,s 214
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology in American History 231
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
God's Israel Identity 144
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology Failed!!! 360
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Dating of the Book of Revelation 399
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint 183
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Dating of the Book of Revelation - More Info! 471
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CLOUD COMING OF JESUS RECORDED!!! 328
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Crying Voices of the Great Tribulation. 183
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who Was the Beast and What Was the Mark? 20
11/20/07 8:20 AM
--
Gunny Freedom's Blog: http://libertyline.blogspot.com/
Gunny's Hangout: http://www.rwva.org/yabbse/index.php "Liberty's Price"
Become a Rifleman: http://appleseedinfo.org/
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
21 Nov 2007 06:01:18 AM |
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On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:13:15 -0500, Gunny Freedom
<glen42@gmail.com> decided to enlighten us by typing the
following:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC
to debate Preterism. After only 2-3 rounds
of discussion, he abandons any attempt to
debate the theology and the facts
You have this backwards. And the posts that
I wrote, were in response to those of Futurists
"spamming" and attacking me personally.
And where is the "2 or 3 rounds of discussion"?
You attacked me immediately!
Let us note that you immediately responded by
attacking the person while ignoring the content
of the post.
and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
I don't think it was that many, but whatever.
People send a bunch of posts all the time
and you don't say a word, which proves that
your mission is to try to censor content that
you can't handle and that conflicts with your
own personal doctrine.
And yes, I write some and copy & paste some.
What is your problem with that? You never say
a word when Futurists do it. Why is that?
You wouldn't be a hypocrite, would you?
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to
"declare victory" simply by overwhelming us
with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
The victory is Christ's. Something that YOU don't
believe has happened yet! But HE IS LORD NOW,
whether you wish to believe it or not!
As for you Futurists, I am not worried about
"declaring victory" over you, nor your doctrine,
since you never discuss it intelligently nor
reasonably anyway and just attack me after
one or two posts, when you see that your
doctrine is falling apart!
Of course, some people, like you, don't even
get that far and just immediately attack!
So let us note that now, once again, you have
proven to us that instead of discussing the issue
presented, you thought it best to attack me
personally instead. And yet, here you are,
hypocritically claiming that I'm the one who
refuses to debate an issue. <chuckle>
And btw, falsely labeling something "spam",
just because you don't like what it says,
only further proves your dishonesty and
lack of integrity.
Note especially in the list below, that all
40 messages were posted within the span
of 6 minutes:
I don't believe it was that high, but let us note that
you are going into one thread after another, posting
this response in each and every one of them.
Doesn't that make YOU guilty of "spamming us"
with 40 posts as well?
Oh no, wait, that's right! Futurists can't be guilty
of their own sins! <chuckle>
--
To email me, just remove the underscores.
"The only place you find chaos in the universe
is in mans' heart." - Vume
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
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| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
21 Nov 2007 01:16:03 AM |
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On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:13:15 -0500, Gunny Freedom
wrote:
In article <hjn5k3p7n975fdljgvghtid6eo8ksuvn2g@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mistery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC to debate Preterism. After
only 2-3 rounds of discussion, he abandons any attempt to debate the
theology and the facts, and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to "declare victory" simply
by overwhelming us with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
Note especially in the list below, that all 40 messages were posted
within the span of 6 minutes:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PING: CHUCK - What Will You Say? 42
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Ancient Quotes - Church Fathers? 292
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Resurrection of the Dead 771
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
REVELATION: WHEN WAS IT WRITTEN??? 534
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: Preterist Statements 655
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 1 46
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 2 360
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Significance of 70 AD 456
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: WILL YOU LIVE UP TO YOUR WORD OR NOT??? 172
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Irenaeus: 70 AD & Abrahamic Covenant 117
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Comments by Epiphanes 44
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cool Info with Lots of Links to Writings Throughout Time 15
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Israel and the Church 72
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Justin Martyr: Sword , Plowshares and the Kingdom 59
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Clement: Abomination of Desolation 52
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Origen: Literal Interpretation Method 63
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Got Preterism? The Church Fathers' Did! 169
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eusebius: Fulfilled 21
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Shake, Ratte and Roll! 336
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
* Christ and the Resurrection of the Flesh * 895
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cloud Coming Recorded by Historians 54
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Church History 82
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Seige of Jerusalem 830
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: AND HERE IS HOW IT ENDED BETWEEN US!!!
386 11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Historical Church Says Christ Returned! 322
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM 224
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who IS Israel 184
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
IF CHRIST HAS NOT COME! 407
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Preterism, Society and the Modern Church; Tackling the Taboo,s 214
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology in American History 231
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
God's Israel Identity 144
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology Failed!!! 360
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Dating of the Book of Revelation 399
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint 183
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Dating of the Book of Revelation - More Info! 471
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CLOUD COMING OF JESUS RECORDED!!! 328
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Crying Voices of the Great Tribulation. 183
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who Was the Beast and What Was the Mark? 20
11/20/07 8:20 AM
You say Dave challenged ACC to debate Preterism.
However it seems to me that you were one of those
planning an offensive against Preterism! Are you
feeling overwhelmed by only 40 posts by Dave? I expect
we could find several hundred more easily. But then I
thought you said that Preterism is something that noone
really believes in, and that there is no support for
Preterism. Now you can't handle 40 posts. What sort
of offensive is this! You should have stayed home!
So this is your best response to content, is to spam us
with your lack of content! (Smirk) Please Glen,
psalmsmith, gunny freedom, you must have something
important to run off and do! Why do you waste our time?
Maybe you would prefer to check into some of your other
schemes which you have brought up and then run from
when it came time to really explain and support with
scripture. We can search the archives and find those
threads, if you would like to explain yourself now!
Where are your friends Chuck and Baba? Did they leave
you here all alone? After planning this masterful
offensive of presenting the wisdom of the Church
fathers. I would say you got left holding the bag!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residences!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
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| User: "ruth" |
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| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
22 Nov 2007 04:32:02 PM |
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On Nov 20, 8:17 am, Pastor Dave
<snipped>
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
A Commonwealth is not a Nation. It is a group of nations.
Gen.35:11 describes this promised group of nations:
"And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a
nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come
out of thy loins"
There remains one Nation of Israel whose fathers came out of Egypt
with Moses.
And there are added believing nations who accept the King of the Jews,
the King of Israel, Yeshua, as their King and Lord.
That is what the Commonwealth will look like.
The nations who come up the Jerusalem and celebrate the Feast of
Tabernacles there, (Zech.14) will belong to that Commonwealth of
Israel.
Ruth
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| User: "ruth" |
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| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
22 Nov 2007 04:22:39 PM |
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On Nov 20, 8:17 am, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
<snipped>
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews.
God said exactly what the New Covenant (NC) is and who is part of it.
The gentiles are NOT members of the NC!
Jer 31:Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new
covenant WITH the House of Israel, and with the House of Judah not
according to the covenant that I made with THEIR fathers in the day
that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which My Covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them,
saith the LORD:
The NC is with the descendents of the men who came out of Egypt with
Moses, who accepted the NC at Sinai and broke it.
THIS SHALL BE the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel;
After THOSE days, saith the LORD, I will put My TORAH in their inward
parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they
shall be my people.
Your idea of the NC is against the Word of Almighty God!
The NC contains the Mosaic Covenant Law written on the hearts of the
Nation of Israel when in THOSE days they are regathered as He said
in the verses prior to these.
And they shall TEACH NO MORE every man his neighbour, and every man
his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall ALL know me, from
the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I
will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
When the NC is made, evangelism STOPS! The Great Commission ceases.
Therefore the NC has not yet begun!
Ruth
In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ.
Paul also says there is no male or female. I still am a female! My
husband is still a male! We are both believers.
And just as gender has not changed neither did Jewish identity
change.
Paul is only saying that salvation is attained for both Jew, gentile,
male, female, slave or free only in one way: faith in the atonement of
Yeshua.
Ruth
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
23 Nov 2007 06:14:16 AM |
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On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:22:39 -0800 (PST), ruth
<mruthrush@hotmail.com> said the following:
On Nov 20, 8:17 am, Pastor Dave
<ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
Who IS Israel: There have been some
interesting discussions
<snipped>
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews.
God said exactly what the New Covenant (NC) is and who
is part of it. The gentiles are NOT members of the NC!
According to you. But according to the Bible, they are.
I'm sorry you don't like that, but it's true.
Jer 31:Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that
I will make a new covenant WITH the House of Israel
Which is the body of Christ, not national Israel any longer.
--
The Last Days were in the first century:
James 5:8-9
8) Be YE also patient; establish YOUR hearts:
for the coming of the Lord DRAWETH NIGH.
9) Grudge not one against another, brethren,
lest YE be condemned: behold, the judge
STANDETH BEFORE THE DOOR.
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| User: " ::: good news :::" |
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| Title: "Pastor" Dave and his Replacement Theology based on Anti-Semitism |
23 Nov 2007 11:28:55 AM |
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In news:jugdk3hbaac193cbfsgh0gjv53lso1llau@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:
Jer 31:Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that
I will make a new covenant WITH the House of Israel
Which is the body of Christ, not national Israel any longer.
Replacement Theology....
..... based on Anti-Semitism.
Replacement Theology
There is a lot of confusion going around these days about God's
promises, even among our own ranks here at (unnamed
organization).
I'd like to take this opportunity to dispel a little of the
confusion.
There is a powerful movement afoot called Replacement Theology
which states that the church is Israel and the promises given to
Israel were primarily for the church. This movement is
incurring the wrath of God, as it increasingly condemns the
nation of Israel as illegitimate, which is natural for folks who
believe the church has replaced Israel. Even among those who
still hold to Israel to one degree or another, there seems to be
a propensity for yanking Old Testament promises out of the Bible
-- and, I might add, out of context -- and indiscriminately
applying them to modern church situations. The tendency is to
select those promises which fit church theology (like healing,
prosperity, victory) and ignore those which do not (like
punishment for rebellion, keeping of feasts, sacrifices). To
set the record straight: the church did not yet exist when
those promises were given, and they were not given to Israel as
a "type" of the church until the church should inherit them.
The Old Testament promises were given to Israel, and they apply
to Israel. Many of them ALSO apply to the church in a general
way, and many of them apply to all nations in a general way, and
many of them apply only to Israel. We have got to quit assuming
that just because some teacher of the Word says the Bible says
something is ours, that it is. We must understand the situation
and context in which the promises were given -- promises of
blessing and/or cursing, of redemption, et-cetera -- before we
can understand the promises themselves.
Let's take as an example 2 Chronicles 7:14. Most people today
are familiar with that verse, but unfortunately the vast
majority of the church in America seems to have gotten the idea
somewhere -- not from God -- that the promise is to America. It
most assuredly is not. Let us read the passage in its context
(2 Chronicles 7:11-20):
Thus Solomon finished the house of the Lord and the
king's palace, and successfully completed all that
he had planned on doing in the house of the Lord and
in his palace. Then the Lord appeared to Solomon at
night and said to him, "I have heard your prayer,
and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of
sacrifice. If I shut up the heavens so that there
is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the
land, or if I send pestilence among My people, and
My people who are called by My Name [over whom My
Name is called] humble themselves and pray, and seek
My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will
hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and
will heal their land. Now My eyes shall be open and
My ears attentive the prayer of this place. For now
I have chosen and consecrated this house that My
Name may be there forever, and My eyes and My heart
will be there perpetually."
The context here is the completion and dedication of the temple
in Israel. Note God's promise concerning "this house".
Speaking to Israel, the Lord promised to forgive the nation and
heal the land if the nation would repent. The entire nation is
called "My people". Israel is called by God's Name. This
promise was NOT given to Japan, Albania, or the United States,
none of which is a nation "called by My Name". Unfortunately,
we in western society have twisted the meaning for our own
supposed benefit to allegedly say, "If My people which are
called by My Name (the Christians within the country) ..." But
it does not say that. Now the promise CAN apply to a nation
other than Israel in a general way: certainly if any nation
(America included) will repent, God will restore the nation and
forgive the sin and heal the land. The key is the distinction
between who is Israel and who is not. If the church is Israel,
then one can truly say, "If the believers will repent and pray,
I'll restore their land." But believers have already repented,
or else they wouldn't be believers! The confusion comes from
erroneously assuming the church is modern "spiritual Israel",
having replaced national Israel. It does not say "If the
Christians will pray and intercede and repent". Repent of what?
The believers are already the righteousness of God in Jesus, and
it's not for the righteousness of the believing 1% that America
will be judged, but for the sin of the wicked 99% who refuse to
repent. The promise concerns a NATION repenting, not God's
people WITHIN A NATION repenting and praying. We are the temple
of the Holy Spirit, it is true, but our repentance does not
nullify the justice and righteousness of God. He cannot leave
America unjudged and remain a righteous judge!
Elsewhere in the Bible we find the answer to how God deals with
a wicked nation where a few people are righteous. This is one
of those passages the modern Word of Faith and Kingdom Now
people like to avoid, because it pretty well debunks their
misinterpretation of 2 Chronicles 7:14. This is found in
Ezekiel 14:13-20, and it is one of those places which speaks of
all nations in general (starting with verse 21 -- not quoted
here -- the Lord starts to apply it directly to Israel):
"Son of man, if a country sins against Me by
committing unfaithfulness, and I stretch out My hand
against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine
against it, and cut off from it both man and beast,
even though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job
were in its midst, by their own righteousness they
could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord
God. "If I were to cause wild beasts to pass
through the land, and they bereave of children, and
it became desolate so that no one would pass through
it because of the beasts, though these three men
were in its midst, as I live," declares the Lord
God, "they could not deliver either their sons or
their daughters. They alone would be delivered, but
the country would be desolate. Or if I should bring
a sword on that country and say, 'Let the sword pass
through the country and cut off man and beast from
it,' even though these three men were in its midst,
as I live," declares the Lord God, "they could not
deliver either their sons or their daughters, but
they alone would be delivered. Or if I should send
a plague against that country and pour out My wrath
in blood on it, to cut off man and beast from it,
even though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in its midst,
as I live," declares the Lord God, "they could not
deliver either their son or their daughter. They
would deliver only themselves by their
righteousness."
Can our righteousness deliver America? What does God say about
it? The only people who will be delivered are the righteous,
and we've got to quit praying out of God's will and asking Him
to deliver the wicked, because He is a righteous and just God
and He will judge sin. The smart thing is to get your sin
judged on the cross so you're free of it and you don't get
judged yourself. We need to pray for people to get saved, and
for wisdom for our leaders, and whatever else the Word tells us
to do. But know this: God is about to judge this nation. It
is His will to do so, indeed, He MUST do so. It is NOT His will
that any perish, but that all be saved. Nevertheless, Scripture
is clear that God hates sin, and He will destroy the nation that
continues to sin. He will also leave a righteous remnant.
The next time you hear someone quoting 2 Chronicles 7:14 over
America and admonishing you to pray for restoration of America,
just remember God isn't going to restore America. God is
restoring Israel now, and human government is coming to an end,
because the Messiah is about to return as King of kings and Lord
of lords; and soon the Word will be fulfilled which says, "The
kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and
He shall reign forever and ever." Why should God put off
Messiah's return so Americans could enjoy a few more years of
materialism and debauchery? We need to get in on what God is
doing, not try to make Him conform to American Christianity and
an American Jesus.
(from: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/replacement.html)
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: "Pastor" Dave and his Replacement Theology based on Anti-Semitism |
23 Nov 2007 09:28:51 PM |
|
|
" ::: good news :::" <veralein@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:5qoguqF10oj8aU1@mid.individual.net...
In news:jugdk3hbaac193cbfsgh0gjv53lso1llau@4ax.com,
Pastor Knave < SATAN_@_gmail.com> typed:
Jer 31:Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that
I will make a new covenant WITH the House of Israel
Which is the body of Christ, not national Israel any longer.
Replacement Theology....
.... based on Anti-Semitism.
What do you expect from Satan's toady? Just another touch of satanism.
I see where he's covering his old lie with another lie, claiming I was using
the wrong Greek word. He runs that lie up the pole every now and then, but
most folks already know its a lie.
Even that I'm using the word is a lie. The Author used the word, and I'm
merely showing the word the Author used.
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
Replacement Theology
There is a lot of confusion going around these days about God's
promises, even among our own ranks here at (unnamed
organization).
I'd like to take this opportunity to dispel a little of the
confusion.
There is a powerful movement afoot called Replacement Theology
which states that the church is Israel and the promises given to
Israel were primarily for the church. This movement is
incurring the wrath of God, as it increasingly condemns the
nation of Israel as illegitimate, which is natural for folks who
believe the church has replaced Israel. Even among those who
still hold to Israel to one degree or another, there seems to be
a propensity for yanking Old Testament promises out of the Bible
-- and, I might add, out of context -- and indiscriminately
applying them to modern church situations. The tendency is to
select those promises which fit church theology (like healing,
prosperity, victory) and ignore those which do not (like
punishment for rebellion, keeping of feasts, sacrifices). To
set the record straight: the church did not yet exist when
those promises were given, and they were not given to Israel as
a "type" of the church until the church should inherit them.
The Old Testament promises were given to Israel, and they apply
to Israel. Many of them ALSO apply to the church in a general
way, and many of them apply to all nations in a general way, and
many of them apply only to Israel. We have got to quit assuming
that just because some teacher of the Word says the Bible says
something is ours, that it is. We must understand the situation
and context in which the promises were given -- promises of
blessing and/or cursing, of redemption, et-cetera -- before we
can understand the promises themselves.
Let's take as an example 2 Chronicles 7:14. Most people today
are familiar with that verse, but unfortunately the vast
majority of the church in America seems to have gotten the idea
somewhere -- not from God -- that the promise is to America. It
most assuredly is not. Let us read the passage in its context
(2 Chronicles 7:11-20):
Thus Solomon finished the house of the Lord and the
king's palace, and successfully completed all that
he had planned on doing in the house of the Lord and
in his palace. Then the Lord appeared to Solomon at
night and said to him, "I have heard your prayer,
and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of
sacrifice. If I shut up the heavens so that there
is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the
land, or if I send pestilence among My people, and
My people who are called by My Name [over whom My
Name is called] humble themselves and pray, and seek
My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will
hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and
will heal their land. Now My eyes shall be open and
My ears attentive the prayer of this place. For now
I have chosen and consecrated this house that My
Name may be there forever, and My eyes and My heart
will be there perpetually."
The context here is the completion and dedication of the temple
in Israel. Note God's promise concerning "this house".
Speaking to Israel, the Lord promised to forgive the nation and
heal the land if the nation would repent. The entire nation is
called "My people". Israel is called by God's Name. This
promise was NOT given to Japan, Albania, or the United States,
none of which is a nation "called by My Name". Unfortunately,
we in western society have twisted the meaning for our own
supposed benefit to allegedly say, "If My people which are
called by My Name (the Christians within the country) ..." But
it does not say that. Now the promise CAN apply to a nation
other than Israel in a general way: certainly if any nation
(America included) will repent, God will restore the nation and
forgive the sin and heal the land. The key is the distinction
between who is Israel and who is not. If the church is Israel,
then one can truly say, "If the believers will repent and pray,
I'll restore their land." But believers have already repented,
or else they wouldn't be believers! The confusion comes from
erroneously assuming the church is modern "spiritual Israel",
having replaced national Israel. It does not say "If the
Christians will pray and intercede and repent". Repent of what?
The believers are already the righteousness of God in Jesus, and
it's not for the righteousness of the believing 1% that America
will be judged, but for the sin of the wicked 99% who refuse to
repent. The promise concerns a NATION repenting, not God's
people WITHIN A NATION repenting and praying. We are the temple
of the Holy Spirit, it is true, but our repentance does not
nullify the justice and righteousness of God. He cannot leave
America unjudged and remain a righteous judge!
Elsewhere in the Bible we find the answer to how God deals with
a wicked nation where a few people are righteous. This is one
of those passages the modern Word of Faith and Kingdom Now
people like to avoid, because it pretty well debunks their
misinterpretation of 2 Chronicles 7:14. This is found in
Ezekiel 14:13-20, and it is one of those places which speaks of
all nations in general (starting with verse 21 -- not quoted
here -- the Lord starts to apply it directly to Israel):
"Son of man, if a country sins against Me by
committing unfaithfulness, and I stretch out My hand
against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine
against it, and cut off from it both man and beast,
even though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job
were in its midst, by their own righteousness they
could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord
God. "If I were to cause wild beasts to pass
through the land, and they bereave of children, and
it became desolate so that no one would pass through
it because of the beasts, though these three men
were in its midst, as I live," declares the Lord
God, "they could not deliver either their sons or
their daughters. They alone would be delivered, but
the country would be desolate. Or if I should bring
a sword on that country and say, 'Let the sword pass
through the country and cut off man and beast from
it,' even though these three men were in its midst,
as I live," declares the Lord God, "they could not
deliver either their sons or their daughters, but
they alone would be delivered. Or if I should send
a plague against that country and pour out My wrath
in blood on it, to cut off man and beast from it,
even though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in its midst,
as I live," declares the Lord God, "they could not
deliver either their son or their daughter. They
would deliver only themselves by their
righteousness."
Can our righteousness deliver America? What does God say about
it? The only people who will be delivered are the righteous,
and we've got to quit praying out of God's will and asking Him
to deliver the wicked, because He is a righteous and just God
and He will judge sin. The smart thing is to get your sin
judged on the cross so you're free of it and you don't get
judged yourself. We need to pray for people to get saved, and
for wisdom for our leaders, and whatever else the Word tells us
to do. But know this: God is about to judge this nation. It
is His will to do so, indeed, He MUST do so. It is NOT His will
that any perish, but that all be saved. Nevertheless, Scripture
is clear that God hates sin, and He will destroy the nation that
continues to sin. He will also leave a righteous remnant.
The next time you hear someone quoting 2 Chronicles 7:14 over
America and admonishing you to pray for restoration of America,
just remember God isn't going to restore America. God is
restoring Israel now, and human government is coming to an end,
because the Messiah is about to return as King of kings and Lord
of lords; and soon the Word will be fulfilled which says, "The
kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and
He shall reign forever and ever." Why should God put off
Messiah's return so Americans could enjoy a few more years of
materialism and debauchery? We need to get in on what God is
doing, not try to make Him conform to American Christianity and
an American Jesus.
(from: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/replacement.html)
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
.
|
|
|
| User: " ::: good news :::" |
|
| Title: Re: "Pastor" Dave and his Replacement Theology based on Anti-Semitism |
25 Nov 2007 04:02:30 PM |
|
|
In news:GCO1j.1333$AR7.315@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com,
Fred A Stover <fredstover7@sbcglobal.net> typed:
" ::: good news :::" <veralein@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:5qoguqF10oj8aU1@mid.individual.net...
In news:jugdk3hbaac193cbfsgh0gjv53lso1llau@4ax.com,
Pastor Knave < SATAN_@_gmail.com> typed:
Jer 31:Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that
I will make a new covenant WITH the House of Israel
Which is the body of Christ, not national Israel any longer.
Replacement Theology....
.... based on Anti-Semitism.
What do you expect from Satan's toady? Just another touch of satanism.
Correct.
I see where he's covering his old lie with another lie, claiming I
was using the wrong Greek word. He runs that lie up the pole every
now and then, but most folks already know its a lie.
Show me what he wrote that was not a lie - and I believe you will have
to search for weeks for that and will not find anything.... He is a
liar, and just cannot be honest.
Even that I'm using the word is a lie. The Author used the word, and
I'm merely showing the word the Author used.
Correct. Some people here accused me of being abusive, too, just because
I quoted this abuser.
His,
God Bless You,
::: vera :::
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God
as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
Replacement Theology
There is a lot of confusion going around these days about God's
promises, even among our own ranks here at (unnamed
organization).
I'd like to take this opportunity to dispel a little of the
confusion.
There is a powerful movement afoot called Replacement Theology
which states that the church is Israel and the promises given to
Israel were primarily for the church. This movement is
incurring the wrath of God, as it increasingly condemns the
nation of Israel as illegitimate, which is natural for folks who
believe the church has replaced Israel. Even among those who
still hold to Israel to one degree or another, there seems to be
a propensity for yanking Old Testament promises out of the Bible
-- and, I might add, out of context -- and indiscriminately
applying them to modern church situations. The tendency is to
select those promises which fit church theology (like healing,
prosperity, victory) and ignore those which do not (like
punishment for rebellion, keeping of feasts, sacrifices). To
set the record straight: the church did not yet exist when
those promises were given, and they were not given to Israel as
a "type" of the church until the church should inherit them.
The Old Testament promises were given to Israel, and they apply
to Israel. Many of them ALSO apply to the church in a general
way, and many of them apply to all nations in a general way, and
many of them apply only to Israel. We have got to quit assuming
that just because some teacher of the Word says the Bible says
something is ours, that it is. We must understand the situation
and context in which the promises were given -- promises of
blessing and/or cursing, of redemption, et-cetera -- before we
can understand the promises themselves.
Let's take as an example 2 Chronicles 7:14. Most people today
are familiar with that verse, but unfortunately the vast
majority of the church in America seems to have gotten the idea
somewhere -- not from God -- that the promise is to America. It
most assuredly is not. Let us read the passage in its context
(2 Chronicles 7:11-20):
Thus Solomon finished the house of the Lord and the
king's palace, and successfully completed all that
he had planned on doing in the house of the Lord and
in his palace. Then the Lord appeared to Solomon at
night and said to him, "I have heard your prayer,
and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of
sacrifice. If I shut up the heavens so that there
is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the
land, or if I send pestilence among My people, and
My people who are called by My Name [over whom My
Name is called] humble themselves and pray, and seek
My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will
hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and
will heal their land. Now My eyes shall be open and
My ears attentive the prayer of this place. For now
I have chosen and consecrated this house that My
Name may be there forever, and My eyes and My heart
will be there perpetually."
The context here is the completion and dedication of the temple
in Israel. Note God's promise concerning "this house".
Speaking to Israel, the Lord promised to forgive the nation and
heal the land if the nation would repent. The entire nation is
called "My people". Israel is called by God's Name. This
promise was NOT given to Japan, Albania, or the United States,
none of which is a nation "called by My Name". Unfortunately,
we in western society have twisted the meaning for our own
supposed benefit to allegedly say, "If My people which are
called by My Name (the Christians within the country) ..." But
it does not say that. Now the promise CAN apply to a nation
other than Israel in a general way: certainly if any nation
(America included) will repent, God will restore the nation and
forgive the sin and heal the land. The key is the distinction
between who is Israel and who is not. If the church is Israel,
then one can truly say, "If the believers will repent and pray,
I'll restore their land." But believers have already repented,
or else they wouldn't be believers! The confusion comes from
erroneously assuming the church is modern "spiritual Israel",
having replaced national Israel. It does not say "If the
Christians will pray and intercede and repent". Repent of what?
The believers are already the righteousness of God in Jesus, and
it's not for the righteousness of the believing 1% that America
will be judged, but for the sin of the wicked 99% who refuse to
repent. The promise concerns a NATION repenting, not God's
people WITHIN A NATION repenting and praying. We are the temple
of the Holy Spirit, it is true, but our repentance does not
nullify the justice and righteousness of God. He cannot leave
America unjudged and remain a righteous judge!
Elsewhere in the Bible we find the answer to how God deals with
a wicked nation where a few people are righteous. This is one
of those passages the modern Word of Faith and Kingdom Now
people like to avoid, because it pretty well debunks their
misinterpretation of 2 Chronicles 7:14. This is found in
Ezekiel 14:13-20, and it is one of those places which speaks of
all nations in general (starting with verse 21 -- not quoted
here -- the Lord starts to apply it directly to Israel):
"Son of man, if a country sins against Me by
committing unfaithfulness, and I stretch out My hand
against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine
against it, and cut off from it both man and beast,
even though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job
were in its midst, by their own righteousness they
could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord
God. "If I were to cause wild beasts to pass
through the land, and they bereave of children, and
it became desolate so that no one would pass through
it because of the beasts, though these three men
were in its midst, as I live," declares the Lord
God, "they could not deliver either their sons or
their daughters. They alone would be delivered, but
the country would be desolate. Or if I should bring
a sword on that country and say, 'Let the sword pass
through the country and cut off man and beast from
it,' even though these three men were in its midst,
as I live," declares the Lord God, "they could not
deliver either their sons or their daughters, but
they alone would be delivered. Or if I should send
a plague against that country and pour out My wrath
in blood on it, to cut off man and beast from it,
even though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in its midst,
as I live," declares the Lord God, "they could not
deliver either their son or their daughter. They
would deliver only themselves by their
righteousness."
Can our righteousness deliver America? What does God say about
it? The only people who will be delivered are the righteous,
and we've got to quit praying out of God's will and asking Him
to deliver the wicked, because He is a righteous and just God
and He will judge sin. The smart thing is to get your sin
judged on the cross so you're free of it and you don't get
judged yourself. We need to pray for people to get saved, and
for wisdom for our leaders, and whatever else the Word tells us
to do. But know this: God is about to judge this nation. It
is His will to do so, indeed, He MUST do so. It is NOT His will
that any perish, but that all be saved. Nevertheless, Scripture
is clear that God hates sin, and He will destroy the nation that
continues to sin. He will also leave a righteous remnant.
The next time you hear someone quoting 2 Chronicles 7:14 over
America and admonishing you to pray for restoration of America,
just remember God isn't going to restore America. God is
restoring Israel now, and human government is coming to an end,
because the Messiah is about to return as King of kings and Lord
of lords; and soon the Word will be fulfilled which says, "The
kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and
He shall reign forever and ever." Why should God put off
Messiah's return so Americans could enjoy a few more years of
materialism and debauchery? We need to get in on what God is
doing, not try to make Him conform to American Christianity and
an American Jesus.
(from: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/replacement.html)
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: "Pastor" Dave and his Replacement Theology based on Anti-Semitism |
25 Nov 2007 08:12:00 PM |
|
|
" ::: good news :::" <veralein@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:5qu9nmF11trh9U1@mid.individual.net...
In news:GCO1j.1333$AR7.315@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com,
Fred A Stover <fredstover7@sbcglobal.net> typed:
" ::: good news :::" <veralein@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:5qoguqF10oj8aU1@mid.individual.net...
In news:jugdk3hbaac193cbfsgh0gjv53lso1llau@4ax.com,
Pastor Knave < SATAN_@_gmail.com> typed:
Jer 31:Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that
I will make a new covenant WITH the House of Israel
Which is the body of Christ, not national Israel any longer.
Replacement Theology....
.... based on Anti-Semitism.
What do you expect from Satan's toady? Just another touch of satanism.
Correct.
I see where he's covering his old lie with another lie, claiming I
was using the wrong Greek word. He runs that lie up the pole every
now and then, but most folks already know its a lie.
Show me what he wrote that was not a lie - and I believe you will have to
search for weeks for that and will not find anything.... He is a liar, and
just cannot be honest.
Even that I'm using the word is a lie. The Author used the word, and
I'm merely showing the word the Author used.
Correct. Some people here accused me of being abusive, too, just because I
quoted this abuser.
His,
God Bless You,
The really good new is that it is only for a little while.
God Bless You,
His
::: vera :::
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God
as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
Replacement Theology
There is a lot of confusion going around these days about God's
promises, even among our own ranks here at (unnamed
organization).
I'd like to take this opportunity to dispel a little of the
confusion.
There is a powerful movement afoot called Replacement Theology
which states that the church is Israel and the promises given to
Israel were primarily for the church. This movement is
incurring the wrath of God, as it increasingly condemns the
nation of Israel as illegitimate, which is natural for folks who
believe the church has replaced Israel. Even among those who
still hold to Israel to one degree or another, there seems to be
a propensity for yanking Old Testament promises out of the Bible
-- and, I might add, out of context -- and indiscriminately
applying them to modern church situations. The tendency is to
select those promises which fit church theology (like healing,
prosperity, victory) and ignore those which do not (like
punishment for rebellion, keeping of feasts, sacrifices). To
set the record straight: the church did not yet exist when
those promises were given, and they were not given to Israel as
a "type" of the church until the church should inherit them.
The Old Testament promises were given to Israel, and they apply
to Israel. Many of them ALSO apply to the church in a general
way, and many of them apply to all nations in a general way, and
many of them apply only to Israel. We have got to quit assuming
that just because some teacher of the Word says the Bible says
something is ours, that it is. We must understand the situation
and context in which the promises were given -- promises of
blessing and/or cursing, of redemption, et-cetera -- before we
can understand the promises themselves.
Let's take as an example 2 Chronicles 7:14. Most people today
are familiar with that verse, but unfortunately the vast
majority of the church in America seems to have gotten the idea
somewhere -- not from God -- that the promise is to America. It
most assuredly is not. Let us read the passage in its context
(2 Chronicles 7:11-20):
Thus Solomon finished the house of the Lord and the
king's palace, and successfully completed all that
he had planned on doing in the house of the Lord and
in his palace. Then the Lord appeared to Solomon at
night and said to him, "I have heard your prayer,
and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of
sacrifice. If I shut up the heavens so that there
is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the
land, or if I send pestilence among My people, and
My people who are called by My Name [over whom My
Name is called] humble themselves and pray, and seek
My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will
hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and
will heal their land. Now My eyes shall be open and
My ears attentive the prayer of this place. For now
I have chosen and consecrated this house that My
Name may be there forever, and My eyes and My heart
will be there perpetually."
The context here is the completion and dedication of the temple
in Israel. Note God's promise concerning "this house".
Speaking to Israel, the Lord promised to forgive the nation and
heal the land if the nation would repent. The entire nation is
called "My people". Israel is called by God's Name. This
promise was NOT given to Japan, Albania, or the United States,
none of which is a nation "called by My Name". Unfortunately,
we in western society have twisted the meaning for our own
supposed benefit to allegedly say, "If My people which are
called by My Name (the Christians within the country) ..." But
it does not say that. Now the promise CAN apply to a nation
other than Israel in a general way: certainly if any nation
(America included) will repent, God will restore the nation and
forgive the sin and heal the land. The key is the distinction
between who is Israel and who is not. If the church is Israel,
then one can truly say, "If the believers will repent and pray,
I'll restore their land." But believers have already repented,
or else they wouldn't be believers! The confusion comes from
erroneously assuming the church is modern "spiritual Israel",
having replaced national Israel. It does not say "If the
Christians will pray and intercede and repent". Repent of what?
The believers are already the righteousness of God in Jesus, and
it's not for the righteousness of the believing 1% that America
will be judged, but for the sin of the wicked 99% who refuse to
repent. The promise concerns a NATION repenting, not God's
people WITHIN A NATION repenting and praying. We are the temple
of the Holy Spirit, it is true, but our repentance does not
nullify the justice and righteousness of God. He cannot leave
America unjudged and remain a righteous judge!
Elsewhere in the Bible we find the answer to how God deals with
a wicked nation where a few people are righteous. This is one
of those passages the modern Word of Faith and Kingdom Now
people like to avoid, because it pretty well debunks their
misinterpretation of 2 Chronicles 7:14. This is found in
Ezekiel 14:13-20, and it is one of those places which speaks of
all nations in general (starting with verse 21 -- not quoted
here -- the Lord starts to apply it directly to Israel):
"Son of man, if a country sins against Me by
committing unfaithfulness, and I stretch out My hand
against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine
against it, and cut off from it both man and beast,
even though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job
were in its midst, by their own righteousness they
could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord
God. "If I were to cause wild beasts to pass
through the land, and they bereave of children, and
it became desolate so that no one would pass through
it because of the beasts, though these three men
were in its midst, as I live," declares the Lord
God, "they could not deliver either their sons or
their daughters. They alone would be delivered, but
the country would be desolate. Or if I should bring
a sword on that country and say, 'Let the sword pass
through the country and cut off man and beast from
it,' even though these three men were in its midst,
as I live," declares the Lord God, "they could not
deliver either their sons or their daughters, but
they alone would be delivered. Or if I should send
a plague against that country and pour out My wrath
in blood on it, to cut off man and beast from it,
even though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in its midst,
as I live," declares the Lord God, "they could not
deliver either their son or their daughter. They
would deliver only themselves by their
righteousness."
Can our righteousness deliver America? What does God say about
it? The only people who will be delivered are the righteous,
and we've got to quit praying out of God's will and asking Him
to deliver the wicked, because He is a righteous and just God
and He will judge sin. The smart thing is to get your sin
judged on the cross so you're free of it and you don't get
judged yourself. We need to pray for people to get saved, and
for wisdom for our leaders, and whatever else the Word tells us
to do. But know this: God is about to judge this nation. It
is His will to do so, indeed, He MUST do so. It is NOT His will
that any perish, but that all be saved. Nevertheless, Scripture
is clear that God hates sin, and He will destroy the nation that
continues to sin. He will also leave a righteous remnant.
The next time you hear someone quoting 2 Chronicles 7:14 over
America and admonishing you to pray for restoration of America,
just remember God isn't going to restore America. God is
restoring Israel now, and human government is coming to an end,
because the Messiah is about to return as King of kings and Lord
of lords; and soon the Word will be fulfilled which says, "The
kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and
He shall reign forever and ever." Why should God put off
Messiah's return so Americans could enjoy a few more years of
materialism and debauchery? We need to get in on what God is
doing, not try to make Him conform to American Christianity and
an American Jesus.
(from: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/replacement.html)
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::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
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| User: "The Kat" |
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| Title: Re: "Pastor" Dave and his Replacement Theology based on Anti-Semitism |
24 Nov 2007 02:36:27 AM |
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On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:28:51 -0600, "Fred A Stover"
<fredstover7@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
What do you expect from Satan's toady? Just another touch of satanism.
A) WHERE does God mention Satan in the OT?
B) WHY is it Satanism just because someone disagrees with you?
C) HOW is your attitude in ANY way Christian
(following the teachings of Jesus)??
--
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