Who IS Israel



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Pastor Dave"
Date: 21 Dec 2007 10:27:03 AM
Object: Who IS Israel
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mistery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
--
It's hard to stumble when you're down on your knees.
.

User: "Fred A Stover"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 23 Dec 2007 09:38:20 AM
"Pastor Knave" < SATAN_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:kaqnm3tnuoithakmn61k7m0j11ref5bs8h@4ax.com...


<snip>
Not you, antichrist and deceiber, Satan!
2 John 1:7 (ASV)
For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess
not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the
antichrist.
.

User: "guardian Snow"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 21 Dec 2007 10:52:55 AM
Eze 20:18 =E2=80=9CAnd I said to their children in the wilderness, =E2=80=98=
Do not
walk in the laws of your fathers, nor observe their rulings, nor
defile yourselves with their idols.
Eze 20:19 =E2=80=98I am =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=94 your Elohim. Walk in My law=
s, and guard My right-
rulings, and do them.
Eze 20:20 =E2=80=98And set apart My Sabbaths, and they shall be a sign betwe=
en
Me and you, to know that I am =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=94 your Elohim.=E2=80=99=
I see it's that time of the week again.
Shalom,
Snow
Where I was born and where and how I have lived is unimportant. It is
what I have done with where I have been that should be of interest.
Dwight L. Moody
.
User: " ::: good news :::"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 21 Dec 2007 11:49:58 AM
In
news:81375a89-b132-4663-8516-370625ec3669@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com,
guardian Snow <snowpheonix@eck.net.au> typed:

Eze 20:18 "And I said to their children in the wilderness, 'Do not
walk in the laws of your fathers, nor observe their rulings, nor
defile yourselves with their idols.
Eze 20:19 'I am ???? your Elohim. Walk in My laws, and guard My right-
rulings, and do them.
Eze 20:20 'And set apart My Sabbaths, and they shall be a sign between
Me and you, to know that I am ???? your Elohim.'

I see it's that time of the week again.

Shalom,

Snow

Where I was born and where and how I have lived is unimportant. It is
what I have done with where I have been that should be of interest.
Dwight L. Moody

Shabbat Shalom to all who celebrate it!
::: vera :::
.


User: " ::: good news :::"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 21 Dec 2007 11:39:05 AM
In news:kaqnm3tnuoithakmn61k7m0j11ref5bs8h@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:
[snip]
We all know that Pastor Dave is an Anti-Semite. So who would care who he
thinks is Israel but the devil?
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
.
User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 21 Dec 2007 02:30:44 PM
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:39:05 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:

[snip]

We all know that Pastor Dave is an Anti-Semite.
So who would care who he thinks is Israel but
the devil?

As usual, Vera snips it all and pretends that falsely
accusing me of being an Anti-Semite is the way to go!
But where have I ever said that I hate Jews? Nowhere!
The truth is, that Vera cannot dispute what I posted
and so, as usual, snips it all and tries to distract
people with her false accusations.
And then, of course, she whines about how it's
everyone else who is attacking her and starting
smear campaigns against her! <chuckle>
The truth is that Vera cannot face up to the truth of what
Scripture says and refuses to admit that it is Scripture
that she is arguing with and that she holds her doctrine
above the word of God!

All the Jews will be saved - at least that is
what Scripture says. The Lord is surely not
"done with Israel", but they are still His Elect,
and will ever be. They will enter Heaven
BEFORE the Christians will. Too bad that
Dave's ego cannot accept this idea. It is really
hard what the Jews had to suffer under so-called
Christians like Dave who just pick from the Bible
what serves their own desires. I deny them, for
they do not accept the Bible and God's will.

I have never heard of the term "Blind Secular
Christian Zionism", and there is no such thing.
The Secular Christians are usually no Zionists
but anti-Semites. There may be a few of them
maybe. But it is more the Bible believing people
who can (partly) see what the Lord's plans are
with His beloved people.

Be blessed,

::: vera :::

All of the letters of the New testament were written
to Christians, not unbelievers!
Keeping that in mind, who does THE BIBLE say is God's elect?
When we see the word "you" (thee, thou, ye) in the letters,
it means those Christians being written to and it seems
to me, that when writing to Christians, the Apostles said:
"Put on therefore, as THE ELECT of God, holy and beloved,
bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind,
meekness, longsuffering." - Colossians 3:2
But hey, Paul must have been talking to the Jews that
spit in Christ's face and crucified Him, right?
Vera is just another dumb *****, who presents the same
false dichotomy that all of the dumb asses like her present.
You either bow and worship a Jew when they walk by,
or you're a Jew hater.
Did you ever notice how a Dispy acts, when a Jew shows up?
They start smiling uncontrollably and tell the Jew just how
wonderful they are (even though this Jew calls their Messiah
a liar and a false man) and will defend them, even to other
Christians who dare to say that the Jews are rejecting Jesus
and they would rather defend that Jew, than save the souls
of 10,000 Gentiles even though they are Gentiles themselves!
Now what was it that the Apostles (who were Jews)
said to the unbelieving Jews???
"But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired
a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince
of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof
we are witnesses." - Acts 3:14-15
"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew
and hanged on a tree." - Acts 5:30
"And we are witnesses of all things which he did both
in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they
slew and hanged on a tree." - Acts 10:39
Gee, I guess those damned Apostles were Anti-Semites!
But hey, that can't be right, can it? Gee, I guess it's
no wonder that people like Vera believe that it's only
today that we can understand the Bible and that the
Apostles were wrong on some things.
Of course, this is especially funny, since it is the
writings of the Apostles that they are "interpreting"
in order to make that claim! This means that they
are "interpreting" the writings of men that they claim
were wrong, to "only today, know what it means".
How does one get the truth of the Gospel from
the New Testament, when one claims that the
writers were wrong??? Huh???
<chuckle>
--
It's hard to stumble when you're down on your knees.
.
User: " ::: good news :::"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 21 Dec 2007 05:06:26 PM
In news:2j8om31ad5hvomiapq54o651mttb5vp3pl@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:39:05 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:


[snip]

We all know that Pastor Dave is an Anti-Semite.
So who would care who he thinks is Israel but
the devil?

[snip]

All the Jews will be saved - at least that is
what Scripture says. The Lord is surely not
"done with Israel", but they are still His Elect,
and will ever be. They will enter Heaven
BEFORE the Christians will. Too bad that
Dave's ego cannot accept this idea. It is really
hard what the Jews had to suffer under so-called
Christians like Dave who just pick from the Bible
what serves their own desires. I deny them, for
they do not accept the Bible and God's will.

I have never heard of the term "Blind Secular
Christian Zionism", and there is no such thing.
The Secular Christians are usually no Zionists
but anti-Semites. There may be a few of them
maybe. But it is more the Bible believing people
who can (partly) see what the Lord's plans are
with His beloved people.

Be blessed,

::: vera :::

Amen!
[snip]
.
User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 21 Dec 2007 06:27:15 PM
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:06:26 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:

[snip]

We all know that Pastor Dave is an Anti-Semite.
So who would care who he thinks is Israel but
the devil?

As usual, Vera snips it all and pretends that falsely
accusing me of being an Anti-Semite is the way to go!
But where have I ever said that I hate Jews? Nowhere!
The truth is, that Vera cannot dispute what I posted
and so, as usual, snips it all and tries to distract
people with her false accusations.
And then, of course, she whines about how it's
everyone else who is attacking her and starting
smear campaigns against her! <chuckle>
The truth is that Vera cannot face up to the truth of what
Scripture says and refuses to admit that it is Scripture
that she is arguing with and that she holds her doctrine
above the word of God!

All the Jews will be saved - at least that is
what Scripture says. The Lord is surely not
"done with Israel", but they are still His Elect,
and will ever be. They will enter Heaven
BEFORE the Christians will. Too bad that
Dave's ego cannot accept this idea. It is really
hard what the Jews had to suffer under so-called
Christians like Dave who just pick from the Bible
what serves their own desires. I deny them, for
they do not accept the Bible and God's will.

I have never heard of the term "Blind Secular
Christian Zionism", and there is no such thing.
The Secular Christians are usually no Zionists
but anti-Semites. There may be a few of them
maybe. But it is more the Bible believing people
who can (partly) see what the Lord's plans are
with His beloved people.

Be blessed,

::: vera :::

All of the letters of the New testament were written
to Christians, not unbelievers!
Keeping that in mind, who does THE BIBLE say is God's elect?
When we see the word "you" (thee, thou, ye) in the letters,
it means those Christians being written to and it seems
to me, that when writing to Christians, the Apostles said:
"Put on therefore, as THE ELECT of God, holy and beloved,
bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind,
meekness, longsuffering." - Colossians 3:2
But hey, Paul must have been talking to the Jews that
spit in Christ's face and crucified Him, right?
Vera is just another dumb *****, who presents the same
false dichotomy that all of the dumb asses like her present.
You either bow and worship a Jew when they walk by,
or you're a Jew hater.
Did you ever notice how a Dispy acts, when a Jew shows up?
They start smiling uncontrollably and tell the Jew just how
wonderful they are (even though this Jew calls their Messiah
a liar and a false man) and will defend them, even to other
Christians who dare to say that the Jews are rejecting Jesus
and they would rather defend that Jew, than save the souls
of 10,000 Gentiles even though they are Gentiles themselves!
Now what was it that the Apostles (who were Jews)
said to the unbelieving Jews???
"But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired
a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince
of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof
we are witnesses." - Acts 3:14-15
"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew
and hanged on a tree." - Acts 5:30
"And we are witnesses of all things which he did both
in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they
slew and hanged on a tree." - Acts 10:39
Gee, I guess those damned Apostles were Anti-Semites!
But hey, that can't be right, can it? Gee, I guess it's
no wonder that people like Vera believe that it's only
today that we can understand the Bible and that the
Apostles were wrong on some things.
Of course, this is especially funny, since it is the
writings of the Apostles that they are "interpreting"
in order to make that claim! This means that they
are "interpreting" the writings of men that they claim
were wrong, to "only today, know what it means".
How does one get the truth of the Gospel from
the New Testament, when one claims that the
writers were wrong??? Huh???
<chuckle>
--
"Faith is not an intellectual belief. Faith is a belief
with legs on it." - Adrian Rogers
.
User: " ::: good news :::"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 22 Dec 2007 08:58:08 AM
In news:kemom3161b8i1fpq6iadmq80ri81ft6bmv@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:06:26 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:


[snip]

We all know that Pastor Dave is an Anti-Semite.
So who would care who he thinks is Israel but
the devil?

[snip]

All the Jews will be saved - at least that is
what Scripture says. The Lord is surely not
"done with Israel", but they are still His Elect,
and will ever be. They will enter Heaven
BEFORE the Christians will. Too bad that
Dave's ego cannot accept this idea. It is really
hard what the Jews had to suffer under so-called
Christians like Dave who just pick from the Bible
what serves their own desires. I deny them, for
they do not accept the Bible and God's will.

I have never heard of the term "Blind Secular
Christian Zionism", and there is no such thing.
The Secular Christians are usually no Zionists
but anti-Semites. There may be a few of them
maybe. But it is more the Bible believing people
who can (partly) see what the Lord's plans are
with His beloved people.

Be blessed,

::: vera :::

[snip]
Jacob is Israel, and all of his descendants.
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
.


User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 21 Dec 2007 06:28:48 PM
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:06:26 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mystery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about Judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
--
In the beginning, God created...
And He did it in six days and said He did it
in six days (Exodus 20:11). Jesus believed
that and referenced it, in Matthew 19:3-8
and in other places. The original Hebrew
word for "day" ("yom"), is never used to mean
anything but a literal day in the Bible, when
a numerical adjective is present ("second, third,
etc.). Are we to believe that this is somehow
the one exception?
.
User: " ::: good news :::"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 21 Dec 2007 09:11:12 PM
In news:agmom3l8jniis8ohs7ripq55tphpv0c2n2@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:06:26 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:



Who IS Israel:

[snip]
"Israel" are ALL the descendents from Jacob's sons.
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
.




User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 21 Dec 2007 02:30:18 PM
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:39:05 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:

[snip]

We all know that Pastor Dave is an Anti-Semite.
So who would care who he thinks is Israel but
the devil?

As usual, Vera snips it all and pretends that falsely
accusing me of being an Anti-Semite is the way to go!
But where have I ever said that I hate Jews? Nowhere!
The truth is, that Vera cannot dispute what I posted
and so, as usual, snips it all and tries to distract
people with her false accusations.
And then, of course, she whines about how it's
everyone else who is attacking her and starting
smear campaigns against her! <chuckle>
The truth is that Vera cannot face up to the truth of what
Scripture says and refuses to admit that it is Scripture
that she is arguing with and that she holds her doctrine
above the word of God!

All the Jews will be saved - at least that is
what Scripture says. The Lord is surely not
"done with Israel", but they are still His Elect,
and will ever be. They will enter Heaven
BEFORE the Christians will. Too bad that
Dave's ego cannot accept this idea. It is really
hard what the Jews had to suffer under so-called
Christians like Dave who just pick from the Bible
what serves their own desires. I deny them, for
they do not accept the Bible and God's will.

I have never heard of the term "Blind Secular
Christian Zionism", and there is no such thing.
The Secular Christians are usually no Zionists
but anti-Semites. There may be a few of them
maybe. But it is more the Bible believing people
who can (partly) see what the Lord's plans are
with His beloved people.

Be blessed,

::: vera :::

All of the letters of the New testament were written
to Christians, not unbelievers!
Keeping that in mind, who does THE BIBLE say is God's elect?
When we see the word "you" (thee, thou, ye) in the letters,
it means those Christians being written to and it seems
to me, that when writing to Christians, the Apostles said:
"Put on therefore, as THE ELECT of God, holy and beloved,
bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind,
meekness, longsuffering." - Colossians 3:2
But hey, Paul must have been talking to the Jews that
spit in Christ's face and crucified Him, right?
Vera is just another dumb *****, who presents the same
false dichotomy that all of the dumb asses like her present.
You either bow and worship a Jew when they walk by,
or you're a Jew hater.
Did you ever notice how a Dispy acts, when a Jew shows up?
They start smiling uncontrollably and tell the Jew just how
wonderful they are (even though this Jew calls their Messiah
a liar and a false man) and will defend them, even to other
Christians who dare to say that the Jews are rejecting Jesus
and they would rather defend that Jew, than save the souls
of 10,000 Gentiles even though they are Gentiles themselves!
Now what was it that the Apostles (who were Jews)
said to the unbelieving Jews???
"But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired
a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince
of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof
we are witnesses." - Acts 3:14-15
"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew
and hanged on a tree." - Acts 5:30
"And we are witnesses of all things which he did both
in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they
slew and hanged on a tree." - Acts 10:39
Gee, I guess those damned Apostles were Anti-Semites!
But hey, that can't be right, can it? Gee, I guess it's
no wonder that people like Vera believe that it's only
today that we can understand the Bible and that the
Apostles were wrong on some things.
Of course, this is especially funny, since it is the
writings of the Apostles that they are "interpreting"
in order to make that claim! This means that they
are "interpreting" the writings of men that they claim
were wrong, to "only today, know what it means".
How does one get the truth of the Gospel from
the New Testament, when one claims that the
writers were wrong??? Huh???
<chuckle>
--
Preach the gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.
.
User: " ::: good news :::"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 22 Dec 2007 09:07:32 AM
In news:ci8om3hq5mo71pbrvc63m5ld4u99pfhbq9@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:39:05 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:


[snip]

We all know that Pastor Dave is an Anti-Semite.
So who would care who he thinks is Israel but
the devil?

[snip]

All the Jews will be saved - at least that is
what Scripture says. The Lord is surely not
"done with Israel", but they are still His Elect,
and will ever be. They will enter Heaven
BEFORE the Christians will. Too bad that
Dave's ego cannot accept this idea. It is really
hard what the Jews had to suffer under so-called
Christians like Dave who just pick from the Bible
what serves their own desires. I deny them, for
they do not accept the Bible and God's will.

I have never heard of the term "Blind Secular
Christian Zionism", and there is no such thing.
The Secular Christians are usually no Zionists
but anti-Semites. There may be a few of them
maybe. But it is more the Bible believing people
who can (partly) see what the Lord's plans are
with His beloved people.

Be blessed,

::: vera :::


[snip]
Plain text - much better than with the dirty spots in between.
.



User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: Who IS Israel 21 Dec 2007 02:30:56 PM
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:27:03 -0500, Pastor Dave
<ananias917_@_gmail.com> said the following:


Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders


The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.

Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".

Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".

Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".

As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).

Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).

That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.

Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).

The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".

So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.

The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.

Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.

The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mistery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.

It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.

The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.

The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?

Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)

Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)

When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).

Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.

--
It's hard to stumble when you're down on your knees.
.


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