| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
21 Dec 2007 02:31:38 PM |
| Object: |
Who IS Israel |
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mistery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
--
A clear conscience makes a soft pillow.
.
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| User: " ::: good news :::" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
21 Dec 2007 02:48:22 PM |
|
|
In news:1l8om3h2hr9jll7om4dm2mnen7ub5ms0mu@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:
[just the common trash of brain-washing attempts]
Whatever he wrote - fact is:
ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED!
ALL is ALL.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out
of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For
this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As
concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching
the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and
calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:26-29 KJV)
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and
shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven
from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone
most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a
wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve
angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve
tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north
three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And
the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of
the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Revelation 21:10-14 KJV)
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
21 Dec 2007 06:30:28 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:48:22 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:
In news:1l8om3h2hr9jll7om4dm2mnen7ub5ms0mu@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:
[just the common trash of brain-washing attempts]
Whatever he wrote - fact is:
ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED!
ALL is ALL.
That wasn't the question. The question was,
"Who is Israel". But as usual, you snip it all
and attempt to obfuscate.
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mystery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about Judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
--
The Last Days were in the first century:
"But the end of all things is AT HAND: be
YE therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."
- 1 Peter 4:7
.
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| User: " ::: good news :::" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
21 Dec 2007 11:14:21 PM |
|
|
In news:cjmom3puul5uit3dolu3qsvb3190bqu48u@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:48:22 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:
In news:1l8om3h2hr9jll7om4dm2mnen7ub5ms0mu@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:
[just the common trash of brain-washing attempts]
Whatever he wrote - fact is:
ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED!
ALL is ALL.
There was no question, especially none that needed so much bandwidth. We
all KNOW that Israel are the descendants from Jacob.
"Pastor" Dave has been spamming his anti-Semitic stuff about Israel long
enough now. What he is doing is nothing but propaganda.
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
21 Dec 2007 06:27:44 PM |
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|
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:48:22 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:
In news:1l8om3h2hr9jll7om4dm2mnen7ub5ms0mu@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:
[just the common trash of brain-washing attempts]
Whatever he wrote - fact is:
ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED!
ALL is ALL.
[snip]
We all know that Pastor Dave is an Anti-Semite.
So who would care who he thinks is Israel but
the devil?
As usual, Vera snips it all and pretends that falsely
accusing me of being an Anti-Semite is the way to go!
But where have I ever said that I hate Jews? Nowhere!
The truth is, that Vera cannot dispute what I posted
and so, as usual, snips it all and tries to distract
people with her false accusations.
And then, of course, she whines about how it's
everyone else who is attacking her and starting
smear campaigns against her! <chuckle>
The truth is that Vera cannot face up to the truth of what
Scripture says and refuses to admit that it is Scripture
that she is arguing with and that she holds her doctrine
above the word of God!
All the Jews will be saved - at least that is
what Scripture says. The Lord is surely not
"done with Israel", but they are still His Elect,
and will ever be. They will enter Heaven
BEFORE the Christians will. Too bad that
Dave's ego cannot accept this idea. It is really
hard what the Jews had to suffer under so-called
Christians like Dave who just pick from the Bible
what serves their own desires. I deny them, for
they do not accept the Bible and God's will.
I have never heard of the term "Blind Secular
Christian Zionism", and there is no such thing.
The Secular Christians are usually no Zionists
but anti-Semites. There may be a few of them
maybe. But it is more the Bible believing people
who can (partly) see what the Lord's plans are
with His beloved people.
Be blessed,
::: vera :::
All of the letters of the New testament were written
to Christians, not unbelievers!
Keeping that in mind, who does THE BIBLE say is God's elect?
When we see the word "you" (thee, thou, ye) in the letters,
it means those Christians being written to and it seems
to me, that when writing to Christians, the Apostles said:
"Put on therefore, as THE ELECT of God, holy and beloved,
bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind,
meekness, longsuffering." - Colossians 3:2
But hey, Paul must have been talking to the Jews that
spit in Christ's face and crucified Him, right?
Vera is just another dumb *****, who presents the same
false dichotomy that all of the dumb asses like her present.
You either bow and worship a Jew when they walk by,
or you're a Jew hater.
Did you ever notice how a Dispy acts, when a Jew shows up?
They start smiling uncontrollably and tell the Jew just how
wonderful they are (even though this Jew calls their Messiah
a liar and a false man) and will defend them, even to other
Christians who dare to say that the Jews are rejecting Jesus
and they would rather defend that Jew, than save the souls
of 10,000 Gentiles even though they are Gentiles themselves!
Now what was it that the Apostles (who were Jews)
said to the unbelieving Jews???
"But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired
a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince
of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof
we are witnesses." - Acts 3:14-15
"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew
and hanged on a tree." - Acts 5:30
"And we are witnesses of all things which he did both
in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they
slew and hanged on a tree." - Acts 10:39
Gee, I guess those damned Apostles were Anti-Semites!
But hey, that can't be right, can it? Gee, I guess it's
no wonder that people like Vera believe that it's only
today that we can understand the Bible and that the
Apostles were wrong on some things.
Of course, this is especially funny, since it is the
writings of the Apostles that they are "interpreting"
in order to make that claim! This means that they
are "interpreting" the writings of men that they claim
were wrong, to "only today, know what it means".
How does one get the truth of the Gospel from
the New Testament, when one claims that the
writers were wrong??? Huh???
<chuckle>
--
"Faith is not an intellectual belief. Faith is a belief
with legs on it." - Adrian Rogers
.
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| User: " ::: good news :::" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
21 Dec 2007 09:07:29 PM |
|
|
In news:8fmom39kjcjt4kttdap2u3bn8627rupgol@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:48:22 +0100, " ::: good news :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> said the following:
In news:1l8om3h2hr9jll7om4dm2mnen7ub5ms0mu@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:
[just the common trash of brain-washing attempts]
Whatever he wrote - fact is:
ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED!
ALL is ALL.
[snip]
We all know that Pastor Dave is an Anti-Semite.
So who would care who he thinks is Israel but
the devil?
[snip]
All the Jews will be saved - at least that is
what Scripture says. The Lord is surely not
"done with Israel", but they are still His Elect,
and will ever be. They will enter Heaven
BEFORE the Christians will. Too bad that
Dave's ego cannot accept this idea. It is really
hard what the Jews had to suffer under so-called
Christians like Dave who just pick from the Bible
what serves their own desires. I deny them, for
they do not accept the Bible and God's will.
I have never heard of the term "Blind Secular
Christian Zionism", and there is no such thing.
The Secular Christians are usually no Zionists
but anti-Semites. There may be a few of them
maybe. But it is more the Bible believing people
who can (partly) see what the Lord's plans are
with His beloved people.
Be blessed,
::: vera :::
[snip]
No matter what this false "Pastor" Dave wrote -
All Israel will be saved!
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
21 Dec 2007 06:46:44 PM |
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|
On December 21, 2007 03:31 pm, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mistery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
Assuming this is correct, then looking at Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks,
it makes sense that those 70 weeks refer to the true Israel, the children
of the promises, or the 'Israel of God', which in the N.T. is the Church.
But then, the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, that started when Christ
began his ministry, must be still on-going, because Christ continues
to 'confirm the covenant' with us to this day.
Doug
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
22 Dec 2007 07:56:00 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:46:44 -0500, Doug <tcc@sentex.net>
said the following:
On December 21, 2007 03:31 pm,
Pastor Dave wrote:
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mistery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
Assuming this is correct, then looking at Daniel's prophecy
of the 70 weeks, it makes sense that those 70 weeks refer
to the true Israel, the children of the promises, or the
'Israel of God', which in the N.T. is the Church.
No, you are confusing time lines. The Bible was not
written in a time vacuum. Israel was first national
and they were supposed to show God to the Gentiles.
They failed and when it was consummated, including
the 70 weeks, Israel was manifested in the church.
But then, the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy,
that started when Christ began his ministry,
must be still on-going, because Christ continues
to 'confirm the covenant' with us to this day.
No, it was about confirming His Covenant with Israel.
Remember, Christ came to "the lost sheep of Israel".
You are not getting it. Israel could not be the church,
until the church was established.
I would suggest that you, after taking your doctrinal
glasses off, read through Galatians 3-4 and take at
least an hour doing so, please.
--
If the professor on Gilligan's Island can make a radio
out of a coconut, why can't he fix a hole in a boat?
.
|
|
|
| User: "guardian Snow" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
22 Dec 2007 08:22:32 AM |
|
|
On Dec 23, 12:56 am, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
No, it was about confirming His Covenant with Israel.
Remember, Christ came to "the lost sheep of Israel".
Mar 2:17 And hearing this, =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=A9=D7=A2 said to them, =E2=
=80=9CThose who are strong
have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to
call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.=E2=80=9D
He came to the lost sheep but is the living Shepard of us all! Your
problem Dave is that you see the scriptures as dead. The truth is
that scriptures are alive and breathing and speaking to all of us in
every generation as the Word of Elohim.
Joh 8:31 So =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=A9=D7=A2 said to those Yehud=CC=B1im who b=
elieved Him, =E2=80=9CIf you
stay in My Word, you are truly My taught ones,
Joh 8:32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you
free.=E2=80=9D
Joh 8:33 They answered Him, =E2=80=9CWe are the seed of Ab=CC=B1raham, and h=
ave
been servants to no one at any time. How do you say, =E2=80=98You shall beco=
me
free=E2=80=99?=E2=80=9D
Joh 8:34 =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=A9=D7=A2 answered them, =E2=80=9CTruly, truly=
, I say to you, everyone
doing sin is a servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 =E2=80=9CAnd the servant does not stay in the house forever =E2=80=
=93 a son
stays forever.
Joh 8:36 =E2=80=9CIf, then, the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed=
..
Stay in the word,
Snow
Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without.
Confucius
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Doug" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
22 Dec 2007 08:57:49 AM |
|
|
On December 22, 2007 08:56 am, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:46:44 -0500, Doug <tcc@sentex.net>
said the following:
On December 21, 2007 03:31 pm,
Pastor Dave wrote:
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mistery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
Assuming this is correct, then looking at Daniel's prophecy
of the 70 weeks, it makes sense that those 70 weeks refer
to the true Israel, the children of the promises, or the
'Israel of God', which in the N.T. is the Church.
No, you are confusing time lines. The Bible was not
written in a time vacuum. Israel was first national
and they were supposed to show God to the Gentiles.
They failed and when it was consummated, including
the 70 weeks, Israel was manifested in the church.
But then, the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy,
that started when Christ began his ministry,
must be still on-going, because Christ continues
to 'confirm the covenant' with us to this day.
No, it was about confirming His Covenant with Israel.
Remember, Christ came to "the lost sheep of Israel".
Yes, and that covenant was made with Abraham, and was called the gospel by
Paul, Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify
the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham,
saying, 'In thee shall all nations be blessed.'
How are they to be blessed? By being included in the promises, and *grafted
in* to the true Israel of God, so they become children of Abraham! Read the
article above, that YOU posted!
They become part of the "household of God" (children).
Ephesians 2:19-21
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens
with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple
in the Lord:
You are not getting it. Israel could not be the church,
until the church was established.
Read the article that YOU POSTED!! Your statement contradits its message!
I would suggest that you, after taking your doctrinal
glasses off, read through Galatians 3-4 and take at
least an hour doing so, please.
Nothing in the New Testament indicates that the 70th week of Daniel's
prophecy ended in the first century AD, and of course it has not. The
Apostles would have mentioned it, if such a momentous event had occurred;
they had Christ's Spirit. The prophecies of John about the 42 months and
1,260 days show the Apostles viewed the last half of the 70th week as
symbolic of the age of the Church! James also alludes to this, when he
writes about Elijah's prayer that there would be no rain for three years
and six months.
The 70th week is the period in which Christ "confirms the covenant" with
believers. Which covenant? The gospel, that was preached to Abraham, "In
thee shall all nations be blessed," Gal 3:8.
Doug
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
22 Dec 2007 05:44:35 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 09:57:49 -0500, Doug <tcc@sentex.net>
said the following:
On December 22, 2007 08:56 am, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:46:44 -0500, Doug <tcc@sentex.net>
said the following:
On December 21, 2007 03:31 pm,
Pastor Dave wrote:
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mistery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
Assuming this is correct, then looking at Daniel's prophecy
of the 70 weeks, it makes sense that those 70 weeks refer
to the true Israel, the children of the promises, or the
'Israel of God', which in the N.T. is the Church.
No, you are confusing time lines. The Bible was not
written in a time vacuum. Israel was first national
and they were supposed to show God to the Gentiles.
They failed and when it was consummated, including
the 70 weeks, Israel was manifested in the church.
But then, the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy,
that started when Christ began his ministry,
must be still on-going, because Christ continues
to 'confirm the covenant' with us to this day.
No, it was about confirming His Covenant with Israel.
Remember, Christ came to "the lost sheep of Israel".
Yes, and that covenant was made with Abraham, and was called the gospel by
Paul, Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify
the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham,
saying, 'In thee shall all nations be blessed.'
How are they to be blessed? By being included in the promises
Where did I say Jews weren't included?
And what else did Paul say about it? That it is NOT
national Jews that it is about! READ Galatians 3-4!
and *grafted in* to the true Israel of God
Wrong! He said it COULD have happened!
And by saying they are grafted into the true Israel,
you are admitting that they are not the true Israel
anymore! So you lose, as does your doctrine!
--
Don't put a question mark where God put a period.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
22 Dec 2007 08:01:35 PM |
|
|
On December 22, 2007 06:44 pm, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 09:57:49 -0500, Doug <tcc@sentex.net>
said the following:
On December 22, 2007 08:56 am, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:46:44 -0500, Doug <tcc@sentex.net>
said the following:
On December 21, 2007 03:31 pm,
Pastor Dave wrote:
Who IS Israel: There have been some interesting discussions
going on about Israel. The thing we have to ask ourselves
is: "Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved
(Romans 9:7).
That Portion, still called "Israel " the "Church" or "Elect"
as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a
second Body of God's people, but the same Body refurbished,
renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed,
but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel
could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got
to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as
being rejected at the Cross when the very essence of the
Cross is a new beginning for Israel.
Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and
the New Testament Body are one and the same Household?
In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to
Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament
times, "the church:"Everything we enjoy in the New Covenant
is because Jesus fulfilled the promises made unto the
Fathers. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant
to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the
promises made to the fathers, (Romans 15:8).
The first time the name "Israel" is used in the Bible is in
Gen 32:27,28. After Jacob wrestled with the angel and
Jacob would not let go until he received a blessing,
the angel said "What is your name? and he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called nor more Jacob,
but Israel (meaning Prince of God), for you have struggled
with God and with men and have prevailed".
So the name "Israel" was given to Jacob as a Spiritual name.
Jacob's self-sufficiency was gone, he was willing to give up
self and follow God. His new Spiritual name referred to his
character.
The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world
through another single man. His name was Abram.
It meant, "Father of high places," because in his day people
went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their
pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect
this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham,
meaning "Father of a multitude." Why was he called this?
It was because of the promise that he would be the father,
both physically and spiritually, of a great many people.
And through him, the entire world would be blessed.
Paul in several places is very clear on this issue. Israel
is a promise. It is a promise made long ago to a gentle
man with a faithful heart. Paul tells us that if we are of
faith then we are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise.
Israel is a "root". Into that root, God can graft branches
both wild and natural.
The thing to remember is that it is all about the covenant.
Now, we have a "new" covenant that includes Gentiles as
well as Jews. In fact, there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
We are all ONE in Christ. This is the great mistery spoken
of by Paul in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
It is spectacular but this is the very thing Christ said
would happen. The kingdom would be taken away from
"natural" Israel and given to a people, "the new covenant
Israel", who will bear the fruit thereof. Make no mistake,
the kingdom has been taken from natural Israel and the
old Jerusalem and Temple were judged for their harlotry.
The New Jerusalem has come according to the writer of
Hebrews. We have come (past tense) to mount Zion and
we are here now. The curse of the old covenant (which
was weak because God found fault with the PEOPLE),
has been removed and now we live in the most wonderful
paradise of all: "closeness with our God". We dwell closer
with him now than the natural tribes of Israel ever did.
Think about that.
The way this "new" Israel, who dwells in the "New Jerusalem"
which resides in the "New Heavens and New Earth," under
this "New Covenant" is to be saved is by first cutting out
all the branches from the root (Rom 11) and then, carefully
and lovingly grafting natural and wild branches back in.
And "in this way," ALL (complete) Israel will be saved.
Does that make sense?
Earlier in his ministry, Paul had famously written to the
Galatians about judaizing (a term only used in Galatians
2.14) and of his own upbringing in Judaism (again only
used in the New Testament in Galatians 1.13-14). In this
epistle he distinguished between Judaism and the church
of God and then left us with the troublesome phraseology
of chapter 6:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as many as
walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them
and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6.15-16)
Just who is the 'Israel of God'? Are they 'new Israel,
true Israel' or 'Israel after the flesh'? Elsewhere, Paul
writes to the Romans about 'inward' or 'in secret' Jews:
"but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
is of the heart; by the Spirit and not in letter; whose
praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2.29)
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom
were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one
sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the
ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have
it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first
represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says
this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls
the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can
only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify
the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to
say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all his children". "It is not Abraham's children of the
flesh who are children of God, but the children of the
promise made to Abraham" (vs 8).
Paul's letter to the Ephesians mentions the gentiles being
'brought near' to the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians
2.12) and of the two peoples being made 'one'.
Assuming this is correct, then looking at Daniel's prophecy
of the 70 weeks, it makes sense that those 70 weeks refer
to the true Israel, the children of the promises, or the
'Israel of God', which in the N.T. is the Church.
No, you are confusing time lines. The Bible was not
written in a time vacuum. Israel was first national
and they were supposed to show God to the Gentiles.
They failed and when it was consummated, including
the 70 weeks, Israel was manifested in the church.
But then, the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy,
that started when Christ began his ministry,
must be still on-going, because Christ continues
to 'confirm the covenant' with us to this day.
No, it was about confirming His Covenant with Israel.
Remember, Christ came to "the lost sheep of Israel".
Yes, and that covenant was made with Abraham, and was called the gospel by
Paul, Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify
the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham,
saying, 'In thee shall all nations be blessed.'
How are they to be blessed? By being included in the promises
Where did I say Jews weren't included?
Of course Jews were included. As I said, the covenant which as made with
Abraham was called the gospel, and both Jews and Gentiles were included in
the promises that pertain to the 'Commonwealth of Israel', the Gentiles by
being *grafted in* (explained in Romans 11) and becoming children of
Abraham!
This is well supported in article that YOU posted!
They all, Jews and Gentiles who believe the gospel, become part of
the "household of God" (children), as Paul explains below:
Ephesians 2:19-21
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens
with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple
in the Lord:
Looking at the above scripture, and the article above that you posted, it
makes no sense to say that the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy ended a few
years after the crucifixion as Preterists have claimed. The "covenant" of
God that Christ confirms is the gospel! It is confirmed for one week,
(Daniel 9:27) beginning at the start of the ministry of Jesus, 28 AD, when
he was baptized by John. The ministry of Jesus, which lasted three and a
half years was the first half-week, and the last half-week is the
*prophetic* three years and a half that is a symbol of the entire time of
the Church, the age we are still in today. Together these make up the final
70th "week" or "seven". We are still in the final "time, times and a half"
(see Daniel 7:25) that is a symbol of the remaining time in which the
gospel goes to the world, and the covenant is still being confirmed by
Christ!
Doug
.
|
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
23 Dec 2007 02:40:52 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 21:01:35 -0500, Doug <tcc@sentex.net>
said the following:
Where did I say Jews weren't included?
Of course Jews were included. As I said,
the covenant which as made with Abraham
was called the gospel
You are missing the point completely. Is this intentional?
Are you intentionally avoiding the time line?
Fact: SINCE CHRIST, the "true Israel" is the church,
not national Israel. It actually always was
the plan, but God gave them the chance to do
what He had asked them to in the first place.
I think you should read the post carefully and instead of
responding with your doctrine, you should respond exactly
on point to the points made in the post, which you have
not done. No offense, it's just a fact.
Now do you want to try again? If so, stick to the points.
You are preaching your doctrine to me and I am not
interested in anything except what i posted and discussing
that, not your wild interpretation of some passages.
If that's what I wanted to discuss, I would have posted
about that.
You may think this is rude of me, but in my mind,
what is rude, is looking at a post and then responding
to something other than what it says and preaching
your doctrine, ignoring the points actually made to
do so, while responding to what someone posted.
DOUG: Hey, how about those '57 Chevy's?! Can you believe
the red dashboard they put in there? What do you
think of the red dashboard they put in there?
DAVE: Well, you know, cars in general were never meant
to be what they are today and when Mr. Chevrolet
first started, he really had a mission to make a
truck!
You know, that's all fine and well, but it doesn't deal with
what was written!
Now I know you will say that you mentioned Abraham
and the covenant, but I also mentioned Chevy's above.
That doesn't mean that I'm dealing with exactly what
you posted, get it? :)
--
"Worry is interest paid on trouble before it is due."
.
|
|
|
| User: " ::: good news :::" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
23 Dec 2007 02:55:31 PM |
|
|
In news:rhhtm39t4l4fmgkss3v466tdvccbkq2nn3@4ax.com,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> typed:
This is a quote from "Pastor" Dave:
I repeat what I said a while ago. You need to be taken out
back and shot in the head. Both you and Vic.
As it looks right now, you are both headed for Hell anyway,
so you might as well get it over with.
And yes, dumb *****, feel free to quote me saying that all
you want. Unlike you, I won't deny my own words.
This is a quote from "Pastor" Dave:
"I'd rather see these people shot in the
head, than read their words anymore! "
This is a quote from "Pastor" Dave:
"I'll tell you why, ***** bag... It's because you're a *****
bag and a liar, who should be run over and shot on sight! "
This is a quote from "Pastor" Dave:
"You're a coward and a moron and you should be
shot on sight."
This is a quote from "Pastor" Dave:
"As far as I'm concerned, Glenn, Grace, Sensi, GentleOwl,
Diana and others, should all be shot in the head, on sight! Why?
Because they deserve it! "
So please watch out and do not believe this man. He is surely no
"Pastor", and neither a Christian. He is just here to make converts for
his preterist sect.
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 21:01:35 -0500, Doug <tcc@sentex.net>
said the following:
Where did I say Jews weren't included?
Of course Jews were included. As I said,
the covenant which as made with Abraham
was called the gospel
You are missing the point completely. Is this intentional?
Are you intentionally avoiding the time line?
Fact: SINCE CHRIST, the "true Israel" is the church,
not national Israel. It actually always was
the plan, but God gave them the chance to do
what He had asked them to in the first place.
I think you should read the post carefully and instead of
responding with your doctrine, you should respond exactly
on point to the points made in the post, which you have
not done. No offense, it's just a fact.
Now do you want to try again? If so, stick to the points.
You are preaching your doctrine to me and I am not
interested in anything except what i posted and discussing
that, not your wild interpretation of some passages.
If that's what I wanted to discuss, I would have posted
about that.
You may think this is rude of me, but in my mind,
what is rude, is looking at a post and then responding
to something other than what it says and preaching
your doctrine, ignoring the points actually made to
do so, while responding to what someone posted.
DOUG: Hey, how about those '57 Chevy's?! Can you believe
the red dashboard they put in there? What do you
think of the red dashboard they put in there?
DAVE: Well, you know, cars in general were never meant
to be what they are today and when Mr. Chevrolet
first started, he really had a mission to make a
truck!
You know, that's all fine and well, but it doesn't deal with
what was written!
Now I know you will say that you mentioned Abraham
and the covenant, but I also mentioned Chevy's above.
That doesn't mean that I'm dealing with exactly what
you posted, get it? :)
--
"Worry is interest paid on trouble before it is due."
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Doug" |
|
| Title: Re: Who IS Israel |
23 Dec 2007 03:35:28 PM |
|
|
On December 23, 2007 03:40 pm, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 21:01:35 -0500, Doug <tcc@sentex.net>
said the following:
Where did I say Jews weren't included?
Of course Jews were included. As I said,
the covenant which as made with Abraham
was called the gospel
You are missing the point completely. Is this intentional?
Are you intentionally avoiding the time line?
Fact: SINCE CHRIST, the "true Israel" is the church,
not national Israel. It actually always was
the plan, but God gave them the chance to do
what He had asked them to in the first place.
Well then, you must have a problem with Jesus and Paul and others including
the prophets and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Church! Jesus
said, "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see
Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God,
and you yourselves thrust out." [Luke 13:28] Again, he said, "And I say
unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down
with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the
children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall
be weeping and gnashing of teeth." [Matthew 8:11-12] Jesus must be
referring to his Church here, because he refers to those Jews who rejected
him as the "children of the kingdom".
And, you also contradict Paul, who wrote to the Ephesians, "Now therefore ye
are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints,
and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the
apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple
in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God
through the Spirit." [Ephesians 2:19-22]
I know this was mentioned before, but it clearly refutes your claims, as
does the message you posted by Sandy Elders!
I think you should read the post carefully and instead of
responding with your doctrine, you should respond exactly
on point to the points made in the post,
Hmm.. Why have you deleted it? No surprise really, as it shows Preterism to
be false! Abraham and all the prophets are included in the Israel of God,
which is the Church of the NT, as Jesus and Paul showed in the above quoted
verses (and see the article posted below). The covenant God made with
Abraham is called the gospel, and it is that covenant that Christ confirms
for the 70th "week" of Daniels's 70 (Daniel 9:24-27). The last half-week,
or "time, times, and a half" continues to the present day.
The article below is fatal to Preterism! (Probably why it was deleted!)
Doug
=======<begin quote from post by Pastor Dave>===============
"Who IS Israel?" by Sandy Elders
The Doctrine of Dispensationalism states that the Church of
Christ, which was born on the day of Pentecost as recorded
in Acts 2, is definitely NOT a part of God's covenants with
Abraham and David. It is believed that the Christian Church
with its gospel of grace is only an "interruption of God's
original plan with Israel, unforeseen by the Old Testament
prophets and having no connection with God's promises of
a kingdom to Abraham, Moses, and David.
Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected the House of
Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as
to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age".
Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the
Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament
Church are one, and have always been one. It was
the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross,
given to the Apostles when taken away from the
Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that
Jesus started a new Body called the "Church".
Old-Testament Israel was the "Church," as is made obvious
by the Septuagint's 78 instances of "ekklesia" (Greek for
"church") when referring to the Old-Testament Congregation
of Israel. Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found
throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...
but usually translated into our English Bibles as
"congregation of Israel" (NIV, "assembly of Israel").
Check out Strong's concordance under "congregation".
As this Old-Testament Church was eventually cleansed in
the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh
body, it's clear that the Old-Testament Church became
the New-Testament Church, and did not replace it
(big difference). "I will cut a new covenant with the house
of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to
the covenant which I cut with their fathers...which they
broke..." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Clearly, New Covenant Israel was cut from no other Body
but Old-Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her
with a second Body called the "Church". If God had rejected
all within sinful Israel, He would not have provided the
Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the
Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and
provided them with the Blood. Isaiah also cries out
concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of
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