| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"basicallyblues" |
| Date: |
06 Mar 2005 11:15:05 AM |
| Object: |
Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
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| User: "Zadok" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 01:59:21 PM |
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"basicallyblues" <> wrote in message
If you read Deuteronomy 12: 30-31, you will wonder even more.
Here God tells his chosen people not to follow after the pagan nations,
asking how did they serve their gods. Verse 31, had God himself tell you
that sacrificing a son or a daughter to a god, is an abomination unto GOD.
Then religionists would turn around and tell you that God did the same
thing. Sacrificed his only begotten son, to save mankind.
The very thing he tells us is an abomination unto him.
Interesting.
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| User: "StratMatt" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 09:20:24 PM |
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"Zadok" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:tiJWd.3920$ZO2.2613@edtnps84...
"basicallyblues" <> wrote in message
If you read Deuteronomy 12: 30-31, you will wonder even more.
Here God tells his chosen people not to follow after the pagan nations,
asking how did they serve their gods. Verse 31, had God himself tell you
that sacrificing a son or a daughter to a god, is an abomination unto GOD.
Then religionists would turn around and tell you that God did the same
thing. Sacrificed his only begotten son, to save mankind.
The very thing he tells us is an abomination unto him.
Interesting.
No.
Because Jesus was and is a SPIRITUAL being. His earthly life was a temporary
state of being a physical being for the puropose of "advertisement"- telling
the world that even though Adam showed in the garden of Eden that he would use
his God-given free will to disobey God, thereby letting the earth remain under
the rule of Satan for 6000 years- even though this happened and man was cut
off from God for 6000 years, Jesus was the new Adam and he IS perfect and
qualified to take over rule of the earth from Lucifer, the fallen cherub who
took a third of the angels from heaven with him in his rebellion.
God did not want Israel to sacrifice children because they were born because
God wanted them to be born and he doesn't want people to be hurt. To be human
is to live your life so that God can look at it at the end to see if you have
attained the character required for him to allow you to become a spiritual
being in his kingdom. Adam was cut off from the tree of eternal life because
he sinned, therefore we FIRST have to live our entire life as a display to God
of what we will do with the free will he gave us. Will we obey him or Satan
(like Adam did)?
THEN you can qualify for eternal life.
If we automatically got eternal life God would have a bunch more spirit beings
rebelling against him along with Satan, when what he needs are qualified
people who love and obey him to rule with him.
Matt
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 09:39:01 PM |
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"StratMatt" <NOstratSPAMmatt777@hotNOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
news:YrKdnZxypr3GVbbfRVn-oA@comcast.com...
"Zadok" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:tiJWd.3920$ZO2.2613@edtnps84...
"basicallyblues" <> wrote in message
If you read Deuteronomy 12: 30-31, you will wonder even more.
Here God tells his chosen people not to follow after the pagan nations,
asking how did they serve their gods. Verse 31, had God himself tell you
that sacrificing a son or a daughter to a god, is an abomination unto
GOD.
Then religionists would turn around and tell you that God did the same
thing. Sacrificed his only begotten son, to save mankind.
The very thing he tells us is an abomination unto him.
Interesting.
No.
Because Jesus was and is a SPIRITUAL being.
Maybe so, but he wants to be a physical person again, as do all waiting
in today's heaven. That will happen when he PHYSICALLY returns soon.
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| User: "StratMatt" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 09:12:15 PM |
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"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
All I can say is my personal feeling about it.
I'm not saying I'm right, but this is how I think about it.
If Jesus did not die and then been resurrected, but only preached his word and
then died like any other ordinary man- would the world really have noticed?
Of course the supernatural things he did such as healing etc... got the
world's attention, but if he had not been crucified by the Jews not only would
he not have become "famous" as undeniably being the son of God, but there also
wouldn't have been such a clear statement to the world that the Pharisiism of
the Jews (works instead of faith) were not the way to a true relationship with
God.
A little more of my personal ideas here... it occured to me that the whole Old
Testament thing of sacrificing animals to God and sin having to be atoned with
blood may have had no other purpose- well, lets say "it's main purpose"- may
have been just to establish than sin had to be atoned for with blood...
otherwise would it have made sense to the world that Jesus had to be
sacrificed to atone for man's sins? Probably not. But because this
principle was established in ancient Israel it made perfect sense.
Since God is all powerful Jesus didn't _have to_ die, but if he didn't come to
earth and die and rise again would the world have even recorded the other
amazing things he did? Maybe the healings would have been dismissed as heresy
IF he hadn't risen from the dead?
There's no way to know, however God knows all things and knows the future so
he knew EXACTLY what events had to take place for the world to recognise Jesus
as their savior.
Those are just my thoughts- not based on reading any book or anything.
Matt
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| User: "Prophet8" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
09 Mar 2005 03:07:31 AM |
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"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
To start with your last question first: In order to die "for someone" you
can't be guilty of the same offense.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the
feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are,
yet without sin.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them
that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto
salvation.
As to why death was the penalty.... God said the soul that sins will surely
die... and sin was passed on from Adam.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is
raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness;
it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a
natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the
last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is
natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from
heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the
heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the
image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all
be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put
on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that
is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus
Christ.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? - ALL DIED |
09 Mar 2005 12:21:11 PM |
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Prophet8 wrote:
"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
To start with your last question first: In order to die "for someone" you
can't be guilty of the same offense.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the
feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are,
yet without sin.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them
that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto
salvation.
As to why death was the penalty.... God said the soul that sins will surely
die... and sin was passed on from Adam.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is
raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness;
it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a
natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the
last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is
natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from
heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the
heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the
image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all
be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put
on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that
is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus
Christ.
===>You just cited the GREAT PAULINE LIE!
With that false promise he sold his new-fangled mystery religion
to ignorant Gentiles, but it was all a fake:
"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"
never happened. THEY ALL DIED!
So, the Church invented the ridiculous idea of "spiritual death" or
"second death". -- L.
.
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| User: "Prophet8" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? - ALL DIED |
11 Mar 2005 08:45:39 PM |
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"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:422F3E97.5C02A5F2@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Prophet8 wrote:
"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus
had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
To start with your last question first: In order to die "for someone"
you
can't be guilty of the same offense.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with
the
feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we
are,
yet without sin.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto
them
that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto
salvation.
As to why death was the penalty.... God said the soul that sins will
surely
die... and sin was passed on from Adam.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;
it is
raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in
weakness;
it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a
natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the
last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is
natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord
from
heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the
heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the
image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all
be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must
put
on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this
mortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that
is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord
Jesus
Christ.
===>You just cited the GREAT PAULINE LIE!
No, that was from the book of Hebrews.
Hope that helps.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? - ALL DIED |
11 Mar 2005 10:13:18 PM |
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Prophet8 wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:422F3E97.5C02A5F2@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Prophet8 wrote:
"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus
had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
To start with your last question first: In order to die "for someone"
you
can't be guilty of the same offense.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with
the
feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we
are,
yet without sin.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto
them
that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto
salvation.
As to why death was the penalty.... God said the soul that sins will
surely
die... and sin was passed on from Adam.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;
it is
raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in
weakness;
it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a
natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the
last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is
natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord
from
heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the
heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the
image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all
be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must
put
on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this
mortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that
is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord
Jesus
Christ.
===>You just cited the GREAT PAULINE LIE!
No, that was from the book of Hebrews.
Hope that helps.
===>Same lie, different packaging (intended for renegade Jews). -- L.
.
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| User: "Prophet8" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? - ALL DIED |
13 Mar 2005 12:25:04 AM |
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"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:42326C5E.3C5FD7AA@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Prophet8 wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:422F3E97.5C02A5F2@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Prophet8 wrote:
"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why
Jesus
had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died
for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive.
Why
Jesus and not someone else?
To start with your last question first: In order to die "for
someone"
you
can't be guilty of the same offense.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched
with
the
feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we
are,
yet without sin.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and
unto
them
that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto
salvation.
As to why death was the penalty.... God said the soul that sins will
surely
die... and sin was passed on from Adam.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in
corruption;
it is
raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in
weakness;
it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There
is a
natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the
last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is
natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the
Lord
from
heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is
the
heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear
the
image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit
the
kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we
shall
all
be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and
we
shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal
must
put
on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this
mortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the
saying
that
is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our
Lord
Jesus
Christ.
===>You just cited the GREAT PAULINE LIE!
No, that was from the book of Hebrews.
Hope that helps.
===>Same lie, different packaging (intended for renegade Jews). -- L.
Pitty for you that you can't prove any of your theory.... Guess you'll just
have to accept it on blind faith.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? - ALL DIED |
13 Mar 2005 06:29:03 PM |
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|
Prophet8 wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:42326C5E.3C5FD7AA@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Prophet8 wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:422F3E97.5C02A5F2@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Prophet8 wrote:
"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why
Jesus
had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died
for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive.
Why
Jesus and not someone else?
To start with your last question first: In order to die "for
someone"
you
can't be guilty of the same offense.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched
with
the
feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we
are,
yet without sin.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and
unto
them
that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto
salvation.
As to why death was the penalty.... God said the soul that sins will
surely
die... and sin was passed on from Adam.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in
corruption;
it is
raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in
weakness;
it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There
is a
natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the
last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is
natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the
Lord
from
heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is
the
heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear
the
image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit
the
kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we
shall
all
be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and
we
shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal
must
put
on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this
mortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the
saying
that
is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our
Lord
Jesus
Christ.
===>You just cited the GREAT PAULINE LIE!
No, that was from the book of Hebrews.
Hope that helps.
===>Same lie, different packaging (intended for renegade Jews). -- L.
Pitty for you that you can't prove any of your theory.... Guess you'll just
have to accept it on blind faith.
===>Pity that you feel compelled to assume that you are not
the only one with blind faith. -- L.
.
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| User: "Dixe Hollins" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? - ALL DIED |
12 Mar 2005 09:01:11 AM |
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He could have gotten a neat tattoo instead. That piercing business was
way over the top.
.
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
08 Mar 2005 11:05:32 AM |
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"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
Just look at what Jesus did? He continued to heal the sick and preach the
truth even under persecution. He raised the dead and cast out demons even
under threads of death. He continued His acts of love and kindness until He
was caught and crucified when He could have forsaken His work and run from
it. Thus He suffered for the cause of love and proved sincerely devoted to
righteousness. He proved Himself completely devoted to what is just and
right. And He proved Himself worthy of honor and praise. Thus God raised
Him from the dead, and He ascended into heaven that we might cleans our
heart of evil intent as we seek to know and honor Him.
He gave us a reason to repent and to show acts of kindness and love instead.
For now we see that there is a reward to be gained, that God is faithful to
those who are devoted to what is just. For we believe that Jesus was devoted
to righteousness and God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. And this gives
us hope that we also can gain heaven if we also follow Him. And it also
gives us warning against the consequences of sin. For if death is not the
end and God rewards those devoted to what's just, then death is not the end
for those who continue in wickedness, so there is a fate worse than death
for those to continue in sin.
He atones for the sins of all mankind and makes up for our sins by being one
who has proven completely devoted to righteousness. Now nothing in heaven or
earth can say that all mankind is completely wicked. For Christ has proven
sincerely devoted to what is just. So the rest of us now see a way out of
corruption and sin. We can cleans our heart by our honor of him. For then we
prove that we are not totally corrupt, that we do know and love faithfulness
and righteousness when we see it.
More at:
http://www.sirus.com/users/mjake/page40.html
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| User: "basicallyblues" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
13 Mar 2005 12:01:28 PM |
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I will not honour a myth from times of fables.
Thanks
then throw out your Richard Dawkins books
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| User: "P.T." |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 12:35:37 PM |
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"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
Hi there!
I don't believe Yahshua HAD to die in the sense that he was predestined to
do so. I believe that he had every intention of reigning as Messiah and
ushering in the Kingdom, but was killed. His blood does not atone for our
sins, but rather his example of following Torah to the death.
Patty
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| User: "basicallyblues" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 01:18:37 PM |
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I don't believe Yahshua HAD to die in the sense that he was
predestined >to
do so. I believe that he had every intention of reigning as Messiah
and
ushering in the Kingdom, but was killed. His blood does not atone for
our
sins, but rather his example of following Torah to the death.
Hmmm interesting. Can you expand on this and use Biblical support?
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| User: "P.T." |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 02:26:20 PM |
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"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110136717.359898.259430@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I don't believe Yahshua HAD to die in the sense that he was
predestined >to
do so. I believe that he had every intention of reigning as Messiah
and
ushering in the Kingdom, but was killed. His blood does not atone for
our
sins, but rather his example of following Torah to the death.
Hmmm interesting. Can you expand on this and use Biblical support?
Hi and thank you for asking! Well, to start, I believe that human sacrifice
is an abomination to YHWH. Nowhere in the Tanak will you find this as a
messianic requirement. Yahshua's message was REPENTANCE. If his sole purpose
was to die for the antonement of sins, why bother preaching this message?
If, on the other hand, he came to teach the fulfilled Torah, it was almost
inevitable that he would be killed. What I mean by fulifilled Torah is that
instead of doing away with the Torah, as the Christians claim, he actually
RAISED THE BAR! Not only is it wrong to physically commit adultery, now you
can't lust after a married woman. Not only is it wrong to kill, now you have
to LOVE YOUR ENEMY. I believe this is setting in motion the New Covenant of
Jeremiah where the Torah will be written in our hearts. Yahshua was killed
because he loved his enemies and did not resist.
I look forward to hearing YOUR comments!
Patty
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| User: "Saint Zombie" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 01:07:04 PM |
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On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 18:35:37 GMT, "P.T." <pt@yahoo.com> wrote:
"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
Hi there!
I don't believe Yahshua HAD to die in the sense that he was predestined to
do so. I believe that he had every intention of reigning as Messiah and
ushering in the Kingdom, but was killed. His blood does not atone for our
sins, but rather his example of following Torah to the death.
Patty
Your statement: "His blood does not atone for our sins" ...
.... is correct. :-)
However your statement: "ushering in the Kingdom" ...
.... happened already.
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| User: "Michael Christ" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 01:49:51 PM |
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"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
How about, He died because mankind is a an *****?
Jesus is God because His Spirit was perfect. Its no good taking in a 5c
piece to buy a 6 pack of beer. The offering has to to be worthy of the
value of the product. In other words, the remission of your sins comes at a
terrible cost.
And, God 'just did' forgive us.
Michael
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| User: "Saint Zombie" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 05:14:33 PM |
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On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 19:49:51 GMT, "Michael Christ"
<mike_au1@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Jesus is God because His Spirit was perfect.
That's like saying the cheese on the pizza, is the pizza.
And I guess that means everyone that is baptized, is God.
2nd John 1:9 (KJV)
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
the Father and the Son.
I count 2, not 3, and not 1. :-)
Although I count one heavenly Father, *AND* only one Messiah.
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| User: "Michael Christ" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 08:44:41 PM |
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Michael Christ wrote:
Jesus is God because His Spirit was perfect.
SZ wrote:
That's like saying the cheese on the pizza, is the pizza.
No, its not.
SZ wrote:
And I guess that means everyone that is baptized, is God.
Yes. His Spirit is just as much the branch as it is the vine.
One Spirit.
Don't look at the religious for reality.
SZ wrote:
2nd John 1:9 (KJV)
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
the Father and the Son.
I count 2, not 3, and not 1. :-)
1 goes with 2 and 3 as naturally as your hand goes on your *****. :-).
SZ wrote:
Although I count one heavenly Father, *AND* only one Messiah.
The is only One.
Like I said in our last exchange, Zom....'God is not formed in the mind of
man'. You don't decide what goes on a Pizza and what does not, or for that
matter what a Pizza is.
Michael
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| User: "Saint Zombie" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 09:00:50 PM |
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On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:44:41 GMT, "Michael Christ"
<mike_au1@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Michael Christ wrote:
Jesus is God because His Spirit was perfect.
SZ wrote:
That's like saying the cheese on the pizza, is the pizza.
No, its not.
SZ wrote:
And I guess that means everyone that is baptized, is God.
Yes. His Spirit is just as much the branch as it is the vine.
One Spirit.
Don't look at the religious for reality.
SZ wrote:
2nd John 1:9 (KJV)
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
the Father and the Son.
I count 2, not 3, and not 1. :-)
1 goes with 2 and 3 as naturally as your hand goes on your *****. :-).
SZ wrote:
Although I count one heavenly Father, *AND* only one Messiah.
The is only One.
Like I said in our last exchange, Zom....'God is not formed in the mind of
man'. You don't decide what goes on a Pizza and what does not, or for that
matter what a Pizza is.
Michael
I guess that means you look at things at a different angle.
Although I agree with you about 90% of the time.
I guess when you speak to me, speak to me like you are me.
Speak to me as a friend, and not like as you are in authority.
Speak to me, like God speaks to me. Then you will be my friend.
But I must warn you, I am now more solid. ;-)
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| User: "Besq" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
09 Mar 2005 08:53:10 PM |
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"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:cfgn21tgm137tpimnkf47lrtkjd298cejf@4ax.com...
On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:44:41 GMT, "Michael Christ"
<mike_au1@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Michael Christ wrote:
Jesus is God because His Spirit was perfect.
SZ wrote:
That's like saying the cheese on the pizza, is the pizza.
No, its not.
SZ wrote:
And I guess that means everyone that is baptized, is God.
Yes. His Spirit is just as much the branch as it is the vine.
One Spirit.
Don't look at the religious for reality.
SZ wrote:
2nd John 1:9 (KJV)
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
the Father and the Son.
I count 2, not 3, and not 1. :-)
1 goes with 2 and 3 as naturally as your hand goes on your *****. :-).
SZ wrote:
Although I count one heavenly Father, *AND* only one Messiah.
The is only One.
Like I said in our last exchange, Zom....'God is not formed in the mind
of
man'. You don't decide what goes on a Pizza and what does not, or for
that
matter what a Pizza is.
Michael
I guess that means you look at things at a different angle.
Although I agree with you about 90% of the time.
I guess when you speak to me, speak to me like you are me.
Speak to me as a friend, and not like as you are in authority.
Speak to me, like God speaks to me. Then you will be my friend.
But I must warn you, I am now more solid. ;-)
I'm posting off your post for convenience, Z.
In the Old Covenant the penalty was death. Christ died to pay the penalty
for all and add forgiveness on repentence. The New Covenant is to keep the
Law as Christ said but when we stumble, we repent and are forgiven.
It isn't "just believe 'on'" but obey and do what Christ did, live the way
He did. The Holy Spirit gives us strength to keep the Law the best we can.
.
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| User: "Saint Zombie" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
09 Mar 2005 09:36:36 PM |
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On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:53:10 -0700, "Besq" <Besq*ns*@ispwest.com>
wrote:
"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:cfgn21tgm137tpimnkf47lrtkjd298cejf@4ax.com...
On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:44:41 GMT, "Michael Christ"
<mike_au1@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Michael Christ wrote:
Jesus is God because His Spirit was perfect.
SZ wrote:
That's like saying the cheese on the pizza, is the pizza.
No, its not.
SZ wrote:
And I guess that means everyone that is baptized, is God.
Yes. His Spirit is just as much the branch as it is the vine.
One Spirit.
Don't look at the religious for reality.
SZ wrote:
2nd John 1:9 (KJV)
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
the Father and the Son.
I count 2, not 3, and not 1. :-)
1 goes with 2 and 3 as naturally as your hand goes on your *****. :-).
SZ wrote:
Although I count one heavenly Father, *AND* only one Messiah.
The is only One.
Like I said in our last exchange, Zom....'God is not formed in the mind
of
man'. You don't decide what goes on a Pizza and what does not, or for
that
matter what a Pizza is.
Michael
I guess that means you look at things at a different angle.
Although I agree with you about 90% of the time.
I guess when you speak to me, speak to me like you are me.
Speak to me as a friend, and not like as you are in authority.
Speak to me, like God speaks to me. Then you will be my friend.
But I must warn you, I am now more solid. ;-)
I'm posting off your post for convenience, Z.
In the Old Covenant the penalty was death. Christ died to pay the penalty
for all and add forgiveness on repentence. The New Covenant is to keep the
Law as Christ said but when we stumble, we repent and are forgiven.
It isn't "just believe 'on'" but obey and do what Christ did, live the way
He did. The Holy Spirit gives us strength to keep the Law the best we can.
There those that are born of God, and there are those who are not.
What could be more simple... huh? ;-)
The Holy Spirit (Ghost) is the teacher. :-)
There ain't no man (yet) that can live as the Messiah did.
To "Believe" is a start. But to "Know" is the end.
And yet the Messiah forgave sins prior to His death.
And there ain't no "New Covenant". ;-)
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| User: "Michael Christ" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
08 Mar 2005 04:20:43 PM |
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Michael Christ wrote:
Like I said in our last exchange, Zom....'God is not formed in the mind of
man'. You don't decide what goes on a Pizza and what does not, or for that
matter what a Pizza is.
Saint Zombie wrote:
I guess that means you look at things at a different angle.
I speak what I know.
Although I agree with you about 90% of the time.
That's encouraging.
I guess when you speak to me, speak to me like you are me.
But I am not. I speak to you as I am led.
Speak to me as a friend, and not like as you are in authority.
But I am a friend, a friend with a God-given authority? I can only be what
I am.
Speak to me, like God speaks to me. Then you will be my friend.
He is speaking to you the way He sees fit.
But I must warn you, I am now more solid. ;-)
The more solid you are the better for me!
Again though, ''God is not formed in the mind of man [by your mind...in
other words]."
If you look carefully at your response you are telling me how I should
be...what suits _your_ thinking. But things will not happen according to
your mind. And what God is emphasising to you is that your mind is not the
determinant of what should be and what should not be. You could gain a lot
if you got hold of that understanding.
Practically everyone on these newsgroups seeks to rule with their mind...the
whole world in fact.
Michael
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| User: "Saint Zombie" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
08 Mar 2005 09:03:34 PM |
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On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:20:43 GMT, "Michael Christ"
<mike_au1@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Michael Christ wrote:
Like I said in our last exchange, Zom....'God is not formed in the mind of
man'. You don't decide what goes on a Pizza and what does not, or for that
matter what a Pizza is.
Saint Zombie wrote:
I guess that means you look at things at a different angle.
I speak what I know.
Although I agree with you about 90% of the time.
That's encouraging.
I guess when you speak to me, speak to me like you are me.
But I am not. I speak to you as I am led.
Speak to me as a friend, and not like as you are in authority.
But I am a friend, a friend with a God-given authority? I can only be what
I am.
Speak to me, like God speaks to me. Then you will be my friend.
He is speaking to you the way He sees fit.
But I must warn you, I am now more solid. ;-)
The more solid you are the better for me!
Again though, ''God is not formed in the mind of man [by your mind...in
other words]."
If you look carefully at your response you are telling me how I should
be...what suits _your_ thinking. But things will not happen according to
your mind. And what God is emphasising to you is that your mind is not the
determinant of what should be and what should not be. You could gain a lot
if you got hold of that understanding.
Practically everyone on these newsgroups seeks to rule with their mind...the
whole world in fact.
Michael
Fortunately, I have grown enough to sift and separate the harvest. :-)
Unfortunately, you haven't changed one single bit. :-(
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| User: "Michael Christ" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
09 Mar 2005 01:12:23 AM |
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Saint Zombie wrote:
Fortunately, I have grown enough to sift and separate the harvest. :-)
Fantastic. :-).
Unfortunately, you haven't changed one single bit. :-(
:-). Unfortuate is your thought.
But you see, I am not formed by your imperfect thoughts, *****.
Michael
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| User: "Saint Zombie" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
09 Mar 2005 09:23:04 PM |
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On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 07:12:23 GMT, "Michael Christ"
<mike_au1@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
But you see, I am not formed by your imperfect thoughts, *****.
An assumption, followed by a certain word.
Interesting. Very interesting. ;-)
Michael
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| User: "Michael Christ" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
10 Mar 2005 04:26:17 AM |
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Michael Christ wrote:
But you see, I am not formed by your imperfect thoughts, *****.
Saint Zombie wrote:
An assumption, followed by a certain word.
Interesting. Very interesting. ;-)
Can't help yourself can you. :-). And its boring. I am looking for
someone who is different from the rest.
Michael
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 02:33:48 PM |
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"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
Jesus had to die to save mankind because the fundamental principle of
reality is prices and the paying of them.
It just so happened that the price for a world of workers of iniquity was
the death of one whom was perfect.
Makes sense to me.
Mark
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| User: "P.T." |
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| Title: Re: Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Save? |
06 Mar 2005 02:37:09 PM |
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"Mark Earnest" <mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:422b6924$0$177$16895aa@news.airnews.net...
"basicallyblues" <nnalyd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110129305.884021.175780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I'd really like to hear the various interpretations as to why Jesus had
to die for mankind to have salvation. Something more than "he died for
our sins". Why did he have to DIE, rather than God just forgive. Why
Jesus and not someone else?
Jesus had to die to save mankind because the fundamental principle of
reality is prices and the paying of them.
It just so happened that the price for a world of workers of iniquity was
the death of one whom was perfect.
Makes sense to me.
Maybe it "makes sense" but is it Biblical?
Patty
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