WHY I LEFT ATHEISM

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Richard Dawkins"
Date:	23 Apr 2006 10:10:40 PM
Object:	WHY I LEFT ATHEISM

WHY I LEFT ATHEISM
Of all the lessons that I present concerning the existence of God and of all
the material that I try to make available to people to learn about God's
existence, the present lesson, "Why I Left Atheism," is the lesson in the
series that I frankly do not like to present. I guess none of us like to
look back in our lives to a time when we made poor judgments and foolish
mistakes when we took rather really idiotic positions--and admit this,
especially to people we are not well acquainted with. I present this lesson,
however, because it is my fervent hope and prayer that perhaps by exposing
my mistakes and by pointing out the things that were a part of my early
life, some who might be following the same paths (to a greater or lesser
extent) might not make those same mistakes. Someone once said that nobody is
totally useless; if we cannot do anything else, we can at least serve as a
bad example. That is sort of my situation. I am hoping that by presenting
these materials and telling you something about my early life, some of you
may be able to recognize the lack of wisdom and perhaps the poor judgment
that is involved in rejecting God and living a life that demonstrates such a
rejection.
Most of the time when I speak to religious groups or to people who believe
in God, someone will ask me somewhat incredulously, "Well, were you really
an atheist? Did you really not believe in God?" I want to start by asserting
that the answer to that question is a very affirmative "Yes." At one time in
my life, I was totally and firmly convicted that there was no such thing as
God and that anybody who believed in God was silly, superstitious, ignorant
and had simply not looked at the evidence. I felt that believers in God were
uneducated and were just following traditions, superstitions and things that
really made no sense to a person who was aware of what was going on around
him. Of course, that kind of life and conviction led me to do and say things
and to be something that was really very unpleasant. I lived a life that was
immoral and which reflected a lack of belief in God. I lived in a way that
was very self-centered and that satisfied my own pleasures and desires
regardless of whether or not other people were hurt in the process of what I
was doing. In the process of doing this, I did a lot of things that have
affected me through my whole life. It is because of this that I present
these materials hoping that perhaps some of you will not make the mistakes
and suffer the consequences that I have suffered. I cannot clearly remember
all of the events that took place or the proper sequence of events because I
was not taking notes. I never expected that I would be trying to recall
these things, much less tell someone else about them. Still, I can recall in
a general way much of what happened, and I am very sure of the concepts. It
is the concepts that will be most useful to you.
I guess the reason that I was an atheist is the same reason that many of you
are believers in God. That was because I had been indoctrinated in that
particular persuasion. My background, the variables that were exposed to me
as a child, led me very strongly in that direction. Just as many of you
believe in God because your parents believe in God and because they
instilled this belief in you, I also questioned, challenged and rejected God
because that was the kind of indoctrination that I received as a child. I
can remember my mother saying to me as a child something like, "Do you
really believe there is an old man, floating around in the sky, blasting
things into existence here upon the earth? Do you really believe that crummy
looking structure on the corner could be something beautiful called 'the
church?' Do you really believe that there is a hole in the ground that I am
going to be thrown into and burned eternally if I do not live just the way
some preacher thinks I ought to?" Of course, I could not conceive of these
things as a child. Consequently, I came to believe that anybody who believed
in God was just silly, superstitious, ignorant and unlearned. You may wonder
how it would be possible for a person coming out of this type of background
and kind of learning situation to come to be a strong believer in God today,
devoting his life to trying to help people to understand that there is a God
in heaven and that the Bible is His literal and verbally inspired Word. It
is the purpose of this booklet to try and point out at least some of the
things that entered into my acceptance of God, Jesus Christ and the Bible as
God's Word.
My high school career was one in which I grew quite rapidly academically. I
enjoyed science and decided that I wanted to be a scientist of some kind I
entered Indiana University majoring in the field of physical science. It was
actually at this point that one of the great changes that occurred in my
life took place. I enrolled in a course in astronomy at the feet of one of
the great astronomers of our day. In that particular course, we were
studying the problem of origins--the creation of matter from nothing. As we
discussed this particular subject, we went into all those theories that are
in that particular material. We talked about the Big Bang Theory, the
Quasistatal Theory, the Continuous Generation Theory, the Planetessimal
Theory, etc.
When we got to the conclusion of that discussion, I asked the professor
which of the particular theories was the one that is most acceptable and
that satisfactorily explains the creation of matter from nothing. He leaned
over the desk and looked me straight in the eye and said, "Young man, you
need to learn to ask intelligent questions." That rather upset me. I did not
appreciate that and I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He said, "This is not
a question that a scientist tries to answer. This is a question for the
philosopher or theologian, but this is not something that falls into the
realm of science." I was very disturbed by that answer. I had always felt
that science could ultimately answer all the questions that man had-- that
there was nothing that science could not eventually take care of as far as
what man might challenge and want to know about--yet this learned man, an
expert in his field, said that this was an area that the scientist should
not even try to answer--that it was totally beyond the capacity of science
to explain and explore.
Not too long after that, I enrolled in a course in biology at the feet of
one of the great primitive life scientists in the country. As we discussed
the initial beginning of life upon the earth in that class, we talked about
the synthesis of various primitive chemical materials such as
deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA). As we discussed this, I once again asked a
question related to the one that I had asked previously. I asked this
professor what the process was by which the original life--the original
living cells upon the earth--came into existence. How did the structure or
generation of DNA occur? Once again, this man said, 'Young man, that is not
a question that falls within the realm of science." I guess what was
happening to me was the same thing that Lord Kelvin, a very famous British
scientist, described in his writings when he made the statement, "If you
study science deep enough and long enough it will force you to believe in
God." That is what happened to me. I began to realize that science had its
limitations--that science, in fact, strongly pointed to other explanations
than natural ones to certain questions.
It was about this time when another thing happened in my life and that was
that a woman entered it. A lot of things begin with women (some things end
with them, too). In this particular case, this young lady was by all means
the most bull-headed, stubborn, cast-iron willed individual I had ever met
in all my life. I can make those statements because some six years later I
married her. This was the first girl I ever met that I felt I could respect.
Sometimes you will hear preachers who know absolutely nothing about what
they are talking about from the role of experience make statements such as,
"If you hold on to your virtues and maintain your moral standards, a man
will respect you more." Let me tell you, as one who has lived on the other
side of the fence and has thought as one who is alienated from how God
thinks, that that statement is true. I will guarantee you that I never
thought seriously about marrying anyone until I met this girl who I could
respect--who really stood for something. Not only did she stand for
something morally, she believed in God and read her Bible. Though she could
not answer all my questions, she kept going back to the Bible, I did not
seem to be able to break her faith as I had been able to do with other
people and the thing that happened was that as a result of her stubbornness
and refusal to reject the Bible, she forced me to read the Bible.
I read the Bible through from cover to cover four times during my sophomore
year in college for the explicit purpose of finding scientific
contradictions in it, By that, I mean statements in the Bible that were
false that I could throw back at her to show her how ridiculous it was to
believe in God. I had even decided to write a book called All the Stupidity
of the Bible. Something amazing happened as I did this. As I considered and
thought about these things, I found that I could not find a contradiction. I
tried that whole year and years after to find a contradiction--to find some
kind of scientific inaccuracy in the Bible. I just simply was not able to do
it. I gave up writing the book because of a lack of material! It is amazing
to me that as I talk to people, I find many who claim to be Christians and
who perhaps claim to have been Christians for many years who have not read
the Bible through cover to cover once. I find it hard to believe that they
believe in God very much if they do not even want to know what He has to
say.
As I read the Bible through again and again, I began to realize that all the
things I had been told about God and religion were not what the Bible said.
They may have been what organized religion said or what some men taught, but
not what the Bible itself said. For example, the Bible did not say that God
was an old man floating around in the sky, blasting things into existence
here upon the earth. The Bible said, "God is a spirit..." (John 4:24) and
that God is not flesh and blood. Jesus made the statement, ".. for flesh and
blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven."
(Matthew 16:17). There are many people today who do not understand this. A
Russian astronaut once made the statement, "See, I told you there was no
God; I didn't see him when I was in orbit." The question might be, "What was
he looking for?" I began to recognize that God was not an old man in the
sky. I had an anthropology professor not too long ago who made the statement
in all dead seriousness, "We all know what God is; He is an old man with a
long white beard and big flowing robes." I am sure that this was his concept
of God. I began to recognize that this was not the biblical concept of God.
I began to recognize that the Christian life was not an altruistic life. I
had been told by several people as a child that if you ever become a
Christian, you cannot ever be happy, you cannot ever own anything, and you
have to walk around with a long sad face with your chin dragging the ground.
Yet when I read the Bible I read statements like, "So ought men to love
their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For
no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it ..."
(Ephesians 5:28-29). I read about the Ethiopian eunuch who went on his way
rejoicing because he had found Jesus Christ and the happiness that went with
that acceptance of Jesus in his life. I have had many problems come into my
life, but all I have to do is to look back at how miserable life was without
Christ and I can realize that life, as it is now with Jesus, is beautiful in
comparison.
I began to recognize that the Church was not a building. I can remember that
when we lived in Alabama, there was a meeting place of some religious group
just down the street from us. My mother used to point to that as we drove or
walked by and say, "Look at that. How could anybody believe in God when the
Church looks like that." I realized that the Bible did not teach that the
Church is such a structure. I Corinthians 3:16 makes the statement, "Know ye
not that ye are the temple of God..." As an atheist, I recognized that you
could meet on the moon, in a submarine, out in the desert or anyplace else
and still be the Church. The Church was not a building. What a tragedy it is
that so many today have invested enormous amounts of money in edifices and
buildings, while other human beings have gone hungry nearby.
I began to recognize that hypocrisy was not confined to religion. I had the
idea that every hypocrite in the world sat in a pew on Sunday morning, and
thus that everybody who was not sitting in a pew was not a hypocrite. I
remember the lesson I learned on this. There was a young man who would sit
elbow to elbow with me arguing against the religionist from time-to-time. He
was in the hospital once with a very serious ailment. I went up to visit him
and as I opened the hospital door, I saw him down on his knees praying to
God. I stood at the door of that hospital room screaming at him, "You
hypocrite--you dirty hypocrite!," until I was escorted out of the hospital.
It slowly began to dawn on me that hypocrisy is a function of humanity, not
religion. You deal with hypocrites at the grocery store, at the filling
station, on the job, at school and at the golf course (maybe more there than
anywhere else). You do not quit buying groceries because the grocer says one
thing and does another. You do not quit your job because your employers tell
you to do something that they themselves would not touch with a ten-foot
pole. You do not deprive yourself or your child of a good education because
a teacher teaches one thing and lives something else. You do not quit
playing golf because your buddy takes a stroke in the rough and does not
count it when he thinks you did not see it. Sure there is hypocrisy in the
Church, because there are human beings in the Church, and as long as you
deal with human beings, you are going to deal with hypocrisy. Do you want to
get away from hypocrisy? Dig a 20-foot hole in your backyard, jump in, let
someone cover you with dirt, and even then you are going to be sitting down
there in the bottom of that hole with one hypocrite. There is not a one of
us breathing air that is as consistent as we ought to be, but the person who
says, "I'm not going to be a Christian! I'm not going to serve God! I'm not
going to get involved in the work of the Church because there are hypocrites
in the Church," is just logically inconsistent! We do not use that kind of
thinking anywhere else in our lives. How can we do it in our relationship to
God? There were many, many misconceptions that I had to get rid of to really
understand what the Bible really teaches.
Another thing that I think needs to be mentioned here as we discuss some of
the things that led me to believe in God were things that had to do with my
happiness. I remember that as a young person, I had what would be an ideal
home by worldly standards. My parents were marvelous people; there was no
divorce, unfaithfulness or neglect in my family. We did things as a family.
We enjoyed each other, yet I ran away from home. I was rebellious and
antagonistic. As I look back at God's Word today, I can see why these things
happened. In Colossians 3:20, for example, the Bible says, "Children, obey
your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord."
Obedience was not a characteristic of John Clayton as a young man. Living in
Bloomington, IN, Indianapolis was known as the party town, and if I wanted
to go to Indianapolis, I went. When my mother said she did not want me to
go, I disconnected the speedometer and went. I did anything and everything I
wanted to do. After all, there was no God. All my parents were doing was
restricting my fun and enjoyment in life; why should I obey them? I lived a
life that was totally antagonistic to everything that my parents stood for.
It is amazing to me today that some parents who do not believe in God and
demonstrate this lack of belief to their children by what they say or the
way they live wonder why their children will not obey them. Why should they?
They have removed the only source of authority that they have, and no child
is going to obey a parent who has destroyed that source of authority. I am
convinced that much of our law and order problems center around this very
question.
Recently, I was talking to a young man up in Michigan who had been a
participant in some of the riots at the University of Michigan. He made the
statement to me that he had done these things and I asked him why he had not
obeyed the law. He said, "What law?" and I said, "The law of the land the
law that God has instituted." He looked at me and laughed and said, "Man, I
don't believe in God." I do not believe we can have law and order when we
remove the source of the authority to that law and order. Certainly, my
rebelliousness and failure to obey my parents brought a great deal of
unpleasantness and misery not only into my life, but into theirs. The very
next verse in Colossians 3 contains another statement that I think had a
great deal to do with my unhappiness and rebelliousness as a child. The
statement is made, "Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they
be discouraged." My parents had a tradition when I was a young man a
tradition they called the cocktail hour. I have never seen my parents drunk,
but they would drink a few martinis and my mother would ask me questions
that ordinarily she would not have asked. I remember, for instance, she
would sometimes ask, "What did you do with the girl you took out last
night?" That was about the last thing I was going to tell my mother, so I
learned to look her right straight in the eye and lie. I could lie to her or
anybody else without batting an eyelash. I conditioned myself to do things
that were wrong. I conditioned myself to steal. I remember the first time
that I stole something. It was a box of raisins from an IGA store. I felt so
badly that I took it back and apologized. Sometime later, I stole a comic
book from a drug store; I took it back, but I did not apologize. Six months
from then, I was stealing almost anything I could get my hands on, not
because I needed it, but because it was fun--it was a challenge. I even went
so far as to be caught stealing money from my parents. That brings me to the
next point, which is certainly another thing that had to do with my
happiness.
When I read passages in the Bible like the 53rd Psalm, for instance, I
sometimes almost feel like God is describing John Clayton some years ago.
Psalm 53:1-3 says:
The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no God." Corrupt are they, and
have done abominable iniquity: There is none that doeth good. God looked
down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did
understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are
altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Another statement, made by Solomon in Ecclesiastes 1, says:
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?...I
have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is
vanity and vexation of spirit.
I have tried almost everything you can imagine to find pleasure and
happiness. I will not try to tell you that I did not find pleasure using my
own system of following my own desires, but I can guarantee you that I did
not find happiness. I tried every conceivable thing you can think of. I
tried all kinds of things--things that were immoral, that were wrong, that
hurt other people, and things that I would not even want to describe. I did
those things because I was trying to find pleasure and happiness and, as I
say, I found pleasure sometimes. However, I never went to bed at night
satisfied or happy with my life and enjoying my living. I never got up in
the morning looking forward to a new day. Life was just one long chain of
misery.
Judge Roy Moore of Lawton, Oklahoma, who deals with the legal problems
precipitated by the presence of Ft. Sill in that area, once made the
statement to me, "I've never seen a young man on drugs live more than seven
years without taking his life." You may not be able to understand that, but
I have sat on the edge of my bed with a 22 caliber rifle between my legs,
trying to have enough guts to pull the trigger. I bottomed out that low; I
got that emotionally disturbed and upset with my desire and attempt to find
happiness. Please listen to me and profit by what I am saying. You can try
every conceivable thing that this world has to offer. You can try sex,
drugs, alcohol, stealing, and all kinds of things in a desperate attempt to
find happiness. I can testify from experience that you may find pleasure,
but you will not find happiness. I can go back to Bloomington, Indiana,
today and meet people who refuse to believe that I have changed my
life--people that I hurt and who knew the kind of life I lived. The reason
that I think many things happen with young people today is because they try
to fmd happiness living their own way. It simply does not work. Have you
ever wondered why it is that when a person gets clean on drugs, gets rid of
the problem of alcohol or conquers some of the problems like the ones I had,
that the person always seems to get involved in some religious cause,
halfway house or something like that? Why is that? I can tell you from my
own experience that we have learned that the only place you find happiness
is in using God's system--in following God's way. Perhaps people that have
lived without God appreciate so much more than people that have grown up in
religious structures-- what you have in the Church. You do not find
happiness living your own system, but only in living God's way and in being
a part of God's system.
As perhaps you are beginning to realize as we get into this discussion more
thoroughly, there were a variety of things that led me to believe in God.
One other thing that I think ought to be mentioned is the fact that I
entered a period of military service about this time. For the first time in
my life, I came in contact with death. I began to think about the
reasonableness of death as I looked at it as an atheist. Perhaps a more
accurate way to describe this was the way that I had to look at life because
of death. As an atheist, I realized that I had to look at life with all of
its problems, difficulties, and terrible things that I experienced as the
best thing that I could ever look forward to. Yet I realized that as a
Christian, I would be able to look at life with all of its joys, beauties,
and wonderful things that we all enjoy as the absolute worst that I was ever
going to have to experience. Yet from a philosophical point, I began to
realize that Christianity offered a great deal in this particular area. I
did not get scared into believing in God, but I think this area together
with all these other things helped to make me realize that there really was
quite a change in my understanding of what Christianity and God are all
about. I began to recognize that perhaps there were some things about the
Church and what it had to offer that were important to me.
About this time in my life, I decided that other religious systems might be
just as good as the Bible. To check them out, I began reading the Vedas,
Koran, Sayings of Buddha, writings of Bahaullah and Zoroaster and found that
other religions taught many things I could not accept. There were teachings
in their writings concerning what life was like after this life that were
unrewarding and unrealistic and there were descriptions of God that were
illogical and inconsistent. There were also many scientific inaccuracies in
their works. There were many teachings about life and how to live it that
were not workable. This included the role and position of women in the
Koran, the Holy War concept of Mohammed, the pantheism of nearly all other
systems, reincarnation, idol worship, polygamy and a myriad of ideas which I
had expected to find in the Bible, but did not. I began to realize that
nothing matched the Bible's system of life. Only in the Bible could I see
statements which would stand in the face of the scientific facts that I knew
to be true and only the Bible offered a system of life that I felt was
reasonable and consistent. I decided that if I ever carne to believe in God,
it would be a belief based upon the Bible.
The next question was that if I ever became a believer in God, which of all
the religious organizations claiming to be Christianity would be the correct
one. I recognized that I did not want to be a part of all these traditional
religious bodies that taught the error that I had been taught and had
believed in my early years, so I started visiting the various religious
organizations in southern Indiana at that time. I visited almost every
religious organization that I could get into, to try and see what they
taught, to see if they followed the Bible and if they understood what the
Bible had to say or if they followed men's theologies. My experience was
that as I went from one to another, each of them taught something that was
not in the Bible. They honored some men above other men, they taught that
unreligious writings were equivalent to the Bible and they did not follow
the Bible literally and verbally. I had had enough of religious confusion
and error. I did not want any more of that sort of thing, so I continued
looking. In a real sense, I guess you could say I am still looking I am
still trying to find that true Church. I did find the religious group that
seemed to me to follow the Bible very closely. In Bloomington, there was a
group of people who met on the comer of 4th and Lincoln St. They were called
the Church of Christ. These people still did not totally follow what I
understood to be the biblical system. My challenge today to young people who
are Christians would be to do a job of totally restoring New Testament
Christianity. This group did have the doctrine of Christianity pretty well
restored as I understood it. I recognized that passages like I Peter 3:21
("The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...") had to
be interpreted as meaning what it said, and this group did interpret that in
a way that I felt was consistent with that passage, This group did interpret
Acts 2:38 ("...be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for
the remission of sins...") in a way that I felt was consistent and they did
reject men as their source of authority.
As a matter of fact, I remember hearing one of the first lessons that I ever
heard in that building preached by a man by the name of Raymond Muncy. Mr.
Muncy said something about, "Now, don't you ever listen to anything any
preacher says," and I said amen to that. He went on and talked about how we
should not rely upon man and I want to tell you here and now that you should
never believe anything any preacher says. Do not ever listen to any
preacher, under any circumstance, unless you can find for yourself in the
Bible that what that man says is consistent with God's Word. This is, in
essence, what Mr. Muncy was saying and I was very impressed by it, but that
group of people did not give as they were prospered. Yes, they worshiped
according to God's format, but they did not give as they were prospered.
They were not involved in teaching their neighbors about Jesus Christ. There
was a very small percentage who were active in the work and they certainly
did not manifest the kind of love and appreciation for each other that I
understood the Bible to teach. The generation before you has restored the
doctrine of Christianity--I believe that. However, they have yet to restore
the spirit of New Testament Christianity and that is your challenge. Restore
the spirit of New Testament Christianity the love and the concern for the
souls of others that the early Church had. I recognized that the Church of
Christ was the closest thing that I had seen to what the Bible taught. I
determined that if I ever became a Christian, I would become a member of
this group--a group that was trying to follow the Bible literally and
verbally, that would not accept the teachings of men and would not try to be
influenced by the traditions of the past.
I guess the real straw that broke the camel's back occurred some six months
later. I was enrolled in my first geology course at Indiana University. The
professor was a brilliant, well-known atheist. On the first day of class, in
response to a discussion, he made a statement something like, "I'm going to
show you that the Bible is a bunch of garbage;" and I thought, "Now this is
going to be great," because I was getting concerned. I was still saying that
I was an atheist to those who knew me well. I was still rejecting God and
holding on tenaciously to my lack of belief. It is hard to change a life
that has gone a certain direction for years and all of a sudden make it go
another direction and I was not ready For that. I thought this man was going
to be able to provide me with some arguments that would finally defeat this
girl that I had been dating all these years. She was a Christian although
perhaps not as strong as she might have been. I was going to show her that
this religion stuff was really a lot of bunk and I was even convinced that I
might even be able to show Ray Muncy that belief in God was, not realistic.
Mr. Muncy was a man who had great patience and knowledge, but he had not
been given much of an opportunity to convince or teach me much of anything.
The professor started the class out by showing us the various methods of
dating rocks and other parts of the creation. He then asserted that everyone
knew that the Bible said the earth was 6,000 years old. I asked where it
said that. He replied that he believed it was in Genesis the 52nd chapter. I
started looking, not knowing much about the Bible, to Genesis 40, Genesis
49, Genesis 50, Exodus 1 I said, "Wait a minute; Genesis only has 50
chapters." He sputtered around a few minutes, but he never did find that
passage. Of course, the Bible does not say the earth is 6,000 years old. The
Bible is totally silent on the age of the earth and I realized that. This
man made the statement that the Bible says that God created two cocker
spaniels, two English terriers and two German shepherds. We all had a good
laugh when we figured out how big the Ark would have to be to hold the 20
million groupings of this kind. Once again, I asked where the word kind was
defined in that way. It did not seem to me that the word kind meant that. We
looked at it and he finally said he guessed that maybe it did not. I
Corinthians 15:39 is the only definition of the word kind and that is a very
broad definition (All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of
flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of
birds.) Genesis 1 uses the same terminology and the same break-down as I
Corinthians 15. To make a very, very long story fairly short, when I turned
in my final exam the last day of class, I said to this learned professor,
"Sir, you have not really shown me any contradiction between what we have
studied in this course and in what the Bible has to teach." He jerked my
paper away from me and said, "Well, I guess if you really study it, there is
no contradiction." I was shocked! I was appalled! Here was a man who had a
PhD. and was a leading atheist, yet he could not answer my silly questions,
from an ignorant college junior who was on his side. I remember that
February day very clearly. I walked back to my room in the dormitory in a
state of shock. I could not believe what had happened. I got to my room
about 11:00 and sat on my bed just thinking what a stupid, ignorant fool I
had been. I had rejected God; I had been dishonest. I had actually been
stupid in my response to the evidence available to me. I did not like people
who refused to look at the evidence and draw intelligent conclusions. I did
not like people who could not break free of their parent's thinking and do
their own thinking. I had always accused the religionists of doing this, yet
I recognized that I had been guilty of the same thing. I had refused to be
honest--to look at the evidence. I had refused to make comparative choices
based upon what was available to me. I was miserable.
Supper time came and I was still sitting there. My roommate came in and
said, "Are you ready to eat?" I said, "No, I'm not hungry," He said, "Are
you sick?" I said, "Yes, I'm sick of me!!! I'm sick of being selfish, I'm
sick of using people, I'm sick of being dishonest, I'm sick...." I was still
telling him what I was sick about as he left for supper. At the time, I did
not understand what was happening, but I do now! That is what repentance is
all about--to get sick of a selfish, egotistical, destructive life and turn
to God''s way--to turn to a life that has value, meaning and direction. My
roommate went on to eat and I just sat there determined that I had to do
something. I could no longer sit back and be dishonest and continue to
refuse to accept the obvious evidence that was available to me. About 6:30,
I got up and started walking toward the building where the Church of Christ
met on Wednesday nights. The invitation was extended at the Church of Christ
that evening for anyone who wished to accept Christ and come forward. I went
forward, understanding that I now believed totally and completely in God. I
recognized that I needed to start a new life and be willing to tell people
that I accepted the existence of God and believed that Jesus is His Son. I
also realized that I was totally and completely lost in my sins and that I
needed to be baptized to have forgiveness (as the Bible commanded). I
started down that aisle that night and Raymond Muncy went into a mild state
of shock. I remember the expression on his face. I do not think he believed
that the power of God could ever reach a man as divorced as I was from
anything good, decent and godly. I was baptized into Christ that evening for
the remission of my sins, as I understood the Bible to teach. To show you
how far I was from God, I called this girl I had been dating for some six
years at that time. I said, "Phyllis, I've become a Christian!" She said, "I
don't believe you. You quit lying to me." I had to have the preacher's wife
talk to her to convince her that I had, in fact, become a Christian. There
are people today who still do not believe it--that the power of God could
change a man that was as divorced and alienated from God as I was--but I
want to tell you that in many respects, this is just the beginning of this
story. God promised His help to those who are His followers. Having a close
personal relationship to God and to other followers enables us to conquer
enormous problems and do things we could not possibly do on our own (see
Philippians 4:13).
I had a lot to overcome. I could not talk without swearing. You could not go
to the preacher's house and say pass the @$*!#%& potatoes. I had to learn a
new way of talking, a new way of living, a new set of values and a new
morality, because I had lived in opposition to God. I asked God's help in
these things and I found I was able to overcome things I had never been able
to overcome before. I have a whole new set of problems--a whole new set of
things that I have to work on-but the problems I have today are nothing like
the problems I had in the past. If anyone had told me twenty years ago that
I would be openly using my limited abilities to publicly convict
disbelievers of God's reality, I would have thought they were insane.
Nonetheless, God has blessed my feeble efforts in spectacular ways--totally
beyond anything I could have ever done,
I want to close this lesson by asking you a very simple question a question
that you need to answer for yourself and that each person needs to answer I
suppose nearly every day. Are you an atheist (not perhaps as man might
define it, but as God defines it)? Are you an atheist? Oh, I realize you may
not be the kind of atheist that I was. Perhaps you are not immoral or
hurting people or dishonest or doing the kinds of things that I did. I am
thankful that you are not, but do you realize the way Jesus views an
atheist? Matthew 12:30 says, "He that is not with me is against me; and he
that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." What is He saying? He is
saying that you are either for God or you are against God. You are either an
atheist or a Christian; you cannot be both. I can understand how a man can
be an atheist. I have been an atheist a good part of my life. As an atheist,
I believed (and still believe) that my life was consistent, reasonable and
defensible.
For a few years now, I have been trying to live what I understand to be the
Christian way of life. Once again, I believe my life is consistent,
reasonable and defensible with what I believe, but I will never understand
(and if you understand I wish you would explain to me) how a man or a woman
or a boy or a girl can say, "Yes, I believe in God. Yes, I understand that
the Bible is God's Word," and then not do everything and anything within
their power to make sure their life conforms to what that God teaches. That
is not consistent, not reasonable and not defensible, yet I am sure there
are many people who know that their life is not consistent with God's way of
living. Jesus said, "He that is not with me is against me; and he that
gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." Are you for Christ? Are you
working for Christ? Is your life radiating the kind of living that Jesus
taught? Are you really a Christian or are you an atheist? There is no middle
ground. It is my hope that by revealing to you the kind of life I have
lived, the kind of person I have been and the mistakes I have made, you have
realized that God is the only way. It is my prayer that you have realized
that there is nothing that can be a part of your life that God cannot help
you overcome and that you also realize that there is no better time than
right now to begin the Christian way of living. Will you not give yourself
to God and live Christ's Way? If you do not know a person or group of people
in you community following the Lord, write me and I will try to help you.
John N. Clayton
1555 Echo Valley Dr.
Niles, MI 49120
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does God Exist?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
~There are no true atheists in Christian newsgroups.~
"Evolutionists are sadistic scientists who hurry to hunt down errors instead
of establishing the truth.~
~"If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that
it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and
therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark
would be without meaning.~
.

User: ""
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	14 May 2006 02:55:34 PM

WHY I LEFT ATHEISM

LOL! Lacking belief in the gods is someything one can "leave?"
ROTFL!!!!
.

User: "Barry OGrady"
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	03 May 2006 12:03:27 AM

From:

(PowerScheduler)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: How I came to disbelieve
I have just found this newsgroup. Let me introduce myself...
I grew up with religion. I used to believe in God, but I no longer do. I'm
not overly intellectual, though I like to think I'm reasonably intelligent.
I'm not into science, in fact I'd rather just sit and wonder about things,
rather than actually figure them out!
Here is how I came to change my belief system.
I used to think that God watched over me, helped me, was there if I asked and
all that. I didn't belong to any religion, though I was raised in the Baptist
Church.
My 11 year old daughter was raped. I started seriously questioning my beliefs
about God after that one. How could a God allow this to happen? I drove
myself absolutely nuts with trying to figure out what I had done wrong, or not
done right enough to have this happen. People told me my daughter suffered
because God gave people free will and sometimes we have to pay the price for
someone else's free will. Stupid stuff like that. I still believed in God
though.
Then my husband had a psychotic break. He was diagnosed with paranoid
schizophrenia. I eventually divorced him, after a long time in hell
(yep..right here on earth!), trying to deal with his illness.
That really got me. If my thoughts, feelings, beliefs originate in my mind,
what is my mind? Well..it's nothing but a glorified piece of meat with some
chemicals and electrical charges thrown in (I think anyways...like I said, I'm
no scientist!). I watched as my husband's brain convinced him of all kinds of
things. I watched his thoughts, feelings and beliefs change to the point I
didn't even know him anymore. Then the doctors added some more chemicals and
it got a little better.
My beliefs, thoughts, feelings...all that I am is so fragile. It's so
changable! It could all be altered forever in a heartbeat...ever know anyone
with a major head injury? So what of my belief in God? If my belief in God
could be wiped out so easily....where did that leave the devine being?
Non-existent? unimaginable? I would go to hell simply because I got some
screwed up chemicals that made me not believe or know anymore? It didn't make
sense.
I started thinking....for myself...and found that I could no longer buy it all.
I can see how a "god" might be useful to some people...it can provide a
feeling of security, a feeling of control over life. It can help people to
feel safe, but it can also help them to feel guilt, shame, unhappiness, a sense
of failure. I can see how it all works, but I just can't buy it anymore.
I have seen the truth and I can't go back.
I've been sort of amazed by the things people say to me about my new beliefs.
I pretty much just keep my mouth shut now...they tell me I'm just blaming god
for what has happened in my life...my daughter and my husband. Well...if there
was a God...shouldn't I blame it??? I don't know..I'm sure you all have heard
it all too. It gets old and it gets hard to take because now I can see the box
that these people are in, but they do not have the courage, the insight, the
whatever to get out of it. Of course, neither did I until circumstances were
so very painful for me I either had to change my beliefs or go crazy myself. I
do not try to challenge them...I can understand if they are not ready to let go
of god yet, but they do not give me the same respect.
Oh well...they have not walked in my shoes and that's ok.
I don't know. Since I quit believing in God, my life is better. I have been
able to make better choices, because I know they have no mystical implications.
I can do what is best for me, because I'm not trying to please some mysterious
being. I feel better than I ever have...and I am much less judgmental of
others than I ever have been. I am happier, more compassionate, just a better
human being, because I know this is all we get. My life has plenty of meaning.
The only way I will go on is by leaving what I have of myself. Through my
children, the people I help or befriend, a lasting impact on others. Of
course, all that will be gone within a couple generations of my death, but I
still find great satisfaction from attempting to leave the world a little bit
better for me having been in it. That's meaning enough for me.
I'm sure someone will tell me I feel better because I'm being lured by satanic
forces or something...but whatever! This is the truth and there's no going
back. I know what I know and I can't go back to the imaginary comfort of a God
that doesn't exist.
I understand that life just happens. Some people are mean and hurt others.
Sometimes things go wrong and people suffer. That's just the way it is. I
find much more comfort in that than thinking that some god has some demented
plan for all this!
Well...this is plenty long enough! It is nice to find others who think like I
do, even if maybe we came to be here by different paths. I will be reading....
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
.

User: "John Elder"
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	03 May 2006 03:39:08 AM

"Barry OGrady" <god_free_jones@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0mtf52l21u616sur98ehqask4m2rpc1f2t@4ax.com...

From:

(PowerScheduler)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: How I came to disbelieve

I have just found this newsgroup. Let me introduce myself...
I grew up with religion. I used to believe in God, but I no longer do.
I'm
not overly intellectual, though I like to think I'm reasonably
intelligent.
I'm not into science, in fact I'd rather just sit and wonder about things,
rather than actually figure them out!
Here is how I came to change my belief system.
I used to think that God watched over me, helped me, was there if I asked
and
all that. I didn't belong to any religion, though I was raised in the
Baptist
Church.

My 11 year old daughter was raped. I started seriously questioning my
beliefs
about God after that one. How could a God allow this to happen? I drove
myself absolutely nuts with trying to figure out what I had done wrong, or
not
done right enough to have this happen. People told me my daughter
suffered
because God gave people free will and sometimes we have to pay the price
for
someone else's free will. Stupid stuff like that. I still believed in
God
though.

Then my husband had a psychotic break. He was diagnosed with paranoid
schizophrenia. I eventually divorced him, after a long time in hell
(yep..right here on earth!), trying to deal with his illness.

That really got me. If my thoughts, feelings, beliefs originate in my
mind,
what is my mind? Well..it's nothing but a glorified piece of meat with
some
chemicals and electrical charges thrown in (I think anyways...like I said,
I'm
no scientist!). I watched as my husband's brain convinced him of all
kinds of
things. I watched his thoughts, feelings and beliefs change to the point
I
didn't even know him anymore. Then the doctors added some more chemicals
and
it got a little better.

My beliefs, thoughts, feelings...all that I am is so fragile. It's so
changable! It could all be altered forever in a heartbeat...ever know
anyone
with a major head injury? So what of my belief in God? If my belief in
God
could be wiped out so easily....where did that leave the devine being?
Non-existent? unimaginable? I would go to hell simply because I got some
screwed up chemicals that made me not believe or know anymore? It didn't
make
sense.

I started thinking....for myself...and found that I could no longer buy it
all.
I can see how a "god" might be useful to some people...it can provide a
feeling of security, a feeling of control over life. It can help people
to
feel safe, but it can also help them to feel guilt, shame, unhappiness, a
sense
of failure. I can see how it all works, but I just can't buy it anymore.

I have seen the truth and I can't go back.

I've been sort of amazed by the things people say to me about my new
beliefs.
I pretty much just keep my mouth shut now...they tell me I'm just blaming
god
for what has happened in my life...my daughter and my husband. Well...if
there
was a God...shouldn't I blame it??? I don't know..I'm sure you all have
heard
it all too. It gets old and it gets hard to take because now I can see
the box
that these people are in, but they do not have the courage, the insight,
the
whatever to get out of it. Of course, neither did I until circumstances
were
so very painful for me I either had to change my beliefs or go crazy
myself. I
do not try to challenge them...I can understand if they are not ready to
let go
of god yet, but they do not give me the same respect.
Oh well...they have not walked in my shoes and that's ok.
I don't know. Since I quit believing in God, my life is better. I have
been
able to make better choices, because I know they have no mystical
implications.
I can do what is best for me, because I'm not trying to please some
mysterious
being. I feel better than I ever have...and I am much less judgmental of
others than I ever have been. I am happier, more compassionate, just a
better
human being, because I know this is all we get. My life has plenty of
meaning.
The only way I will go on is by leaving what I have of myself. Through my
children, the people I help or befriend, a lasting impact on others. Of
course, all that will be gone within a couple generations of my death, but
I
still find great satisfaction from attempting to leave the world a little
bit
better for me having been in it. That's meaning enough for me.
I'm sure someone will tell me I feel better because I'm being lured by
satanic
forces or something...but whatever! This is the truth and there's no
going
back. I know what I know and I can't go back to the imaginary comfort of
a God
that doesn't exist.
I understand that life just happens. Some people are mean and hurt
others.
Sometimes things go wrong and people suffer. That's just the way it is.
I
find much more comfort in that than thinking that some god has some
demented
plan for all this!
Well...this is plenty long enough! It is nice to find others who think
like I
do, even if maybe we came to be here by different paths. I will be
reading....

Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og

==========================================
Sorry for all the sadness in your life. You are wrong, however to
blame God for it. God has set this planet in motion with all it's
misery as well as joy to fall on the righteous as well as the sinner.
You can't blame Him for every hurricane and earthquake. That
kind of catastrophe is built into the system. The material world
as we know it could not exist without opposites. If we have
good we also get evil. Hot could not exist without cold. Up
could not exist without down.
As for the existance of God, step outside and look around you.
Consider the explanation of the proponents of evolution. Everything
'just happened'. We have all been involved in planning something
which we then made happen. No matter how long you wait
you will never get a new house unless you plan for it.
Everything in our modern life exists because someone designed
it and others then built it. Why then is it so difficult to see that
the universe is no different? Everything in nature cries out
'design'.
john elder
======================================
.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	11 May 2006 06:23:11 PM

"John Elder" <geneodell@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:kLudnfXYIYSz8cXZnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@comcast.com...

"Barry OGrady" <god_free_jones@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0mtf52l21u616sur98ehqask4m2rpc1f2t@4ax.com...

From:

(PowerScheduler)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: How I came to disbelieve

I have just found this newsgroup. Let me introduce myself...
I grew up with religion. I used to believe in God, but I no longer do.
I'm
not overly intellectual, though I like to think I'm reasonably
intelligent.
I'm not into science, in fact I'd rather just sit and wonder about
things,
rather than actually figure them out!
Here is how I came to change my belief system.
I used to think that God watched over me, helped me, was there if I asked
and
all that. I didn't belong to any religion, though I was raised in the
Baptist
Church.

My 11 year old daughter was raped. I started seriously questioning my
beliefs
about God after that one. How could a God allow this to happen? I drove
myself absolutely nuts with trying to figure out what I had done wrong,
or not
done right enough to have this happen. People told me my daughter
suffered
because God gave people free will and sometimes we have to pay the price
for
someone else's free will. Stupid stuff like that. I still believed in
God
though.

Then my husband had a psychotic break. He was diagnosed with paranoid
schizophrenia. I eventually divorced him, after a long time in hell
(yep..right here on earth!), trying to deal with his illness.

That really got me. If my thoughts, feelings, beliefs originate in my
mind,
what is my mind? Well..it's nothing but a glorified piece of meat with
some
chemicals and electrical charges thrown in (I think anyways...like I
said, I'm
no scientist!). I watched as my husband's brain convinced him of all
kinds of
things. I watched his thoughts, feelings and beliefs change to the point
I
didn't even know him anymore. Then the doctors added some more chemicals
and
it got a little better.

My beliefs, thoughts, feelings...all that I am is so fragile. It's so
changable! It could all be altered forever in a heartbeat...ever know
anyone
with a major head injury? So what of my belief in God? If my belief in
God
could be wiped out so easily....where did that leave the devine being?
Non-existent? unimaginable? I would go to hell simply because I got
some
screwed up chemicals that made me not believe or know anymore? It didn't
make
sense.

I started thinking....for myself...and found that I could no longer buy
it all.
I can see how a "god" might be useful to some people...it can provide a
feeling of security, a feeling of control over life. It can help people
to
feel safe, but it can also help them to feel guilt, shame, unhappiness, a
sense
of failure. I can see how it all works, but I just can't buy it anymore.

I have seen the truth and I can't go back.

I've been sort of amazed by the things people say to me about my new
beliefs.
I pretty much just keep my mouth shut now...they tell me I'm just blaming
god
for what has happened in my life...my daughter and my husband. Well...if
there
was a God...shouldn't I blame it??? I don't know..I'm sure you all have
heard
it all too. It gets old and it gets hard to take because now I can see
the box
that these people are in, but they do not have the courage, the insight,
the
whatever to get out of it. Of course, neither did I until circumstances
were
so very painful for me I either had to change my beliefs or go crazy
myself. I
do not try to challenge them...I can understand if they are not ready to
let go
of god yet, but they do not give me the same respect.
Oh well...they have not walked in my shoes and that's ok.
I don't know. Since I quit believing in God, my life is better. I have
been
able to make better choices, because I know they have no mystical
implications.
I can do what is best for me, because I'm not trying to please some
mysterious
being. I feel better than I ever have...and I am much less judgmental of
others than I ever have been. I am happier, more compassionate, just a
better
human being, because I know this is all we get. My life has plenty of
meaning.
The only way I will go on is by leaving what I have of myself. Through
my
children, the people I help or befriend, a lasting impact on others. Of
course, all that will be gone within a couple generations of my death,
but I
still find great satisfaction from attempting to leave the world a little
bit
better for me having been in it. That's meaning enough for me.
I'm sure someone will tell me I feel better because I'm being lured by
satanic
forces or something...but whatever! This is the truth and there's no
going
back. I know what I know and I can't go back to the imaginary comfort of
a God
that doesn't exist.
I understand that life just happens. Some people are mean and hurt
others.
Sometimes things go wrong and people suffer. That's just the way it is.
I
find much more comfort in that than thinking that some god has some
demented
plan for all this!
Well...this is plenty long enough! It is nice to find others who think
like I
do, even if maybe we came to be here by different paths. I will be
reading....

Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og

==========================================
Sorry for all the sadness in your life. You are wrong, however to
blame God for it.

The original poster only blamed God while she was a believer.
She makes it clear later on that she no longer does.
I guess you must have mentally edited that part out.
And she is much happier now after having jettisoned the old belief system.

God has set this planet in motion with all it's
misery as well as joy to fall on the righteous as well as the sinner.
You can't blame Him for every hurricane and earthquake. That
kind of catastrophe is built into the system. The material world
as we know it could not exist without opposites. If we have
good we also get evil. Hot could not exist without cold. Up
could not exist without down.
As for the existance of God, step outside and look around you.

All we see is the natural processes of nature. No God person anywhere.

Consider the explanation of the proponents of evolution. Everything
'just happened'.

No one says it 'just happened'. There are energetic and gaseous processes
going on in the universe that we as yet do not understand.
'God' is only a standby story until we gain that understanding.
I often here believers saying "well how else could it have all come about?".

We have all been involved in planning something
which we then made happen. No matter how long you wait
you will never get a new house unless you plan for it.
Everything in our modern life exists because someone designed
it and others then built it. Why then is it so difficult to see that
the universe is no different? Everything in nature cries out
'design'.

My theory is that it has something to do with consciousness (cosmic).
There have been scientific tests carried out that suggest that consciousness
(human) can affect and even control energy and matter.
That's all I can say about that right now.

john elder
======================================

--
Andrew W.
�Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of
any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of
existence.�
~ Robert Anton Wilson
"The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it describes
God as a mass murderer. This may be the single most important key to the
political behaviour of Western Civilization.�
~ Robert Anton Wilson
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	12 May 2006 06:40:39 AM

"Andrew W" <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4463c761$0$28362$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

All we see is the natural processes of nature. No God person anywhere.

That is true in your world. But in our Christian world God lives within
all of us. It's only that some people don't want to acknowledge Him, for
like Julian Huxley said: "I presume the idea of God interferes with people's
sexual mores."
"Natural processes" is only the stage upon which life takes place. God
represents the ideals we all aspire to, and which make our lives worth
living in their pursuit.
.

User: "Andrew W"
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	13 May 2006 03:46:34 PM

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote in message
news:638f6$4464da69$d1d89a71$12268@PRIMUS.CA...

"Andrew W" <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4463c761$0$28362$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

All we see is the natural processes of nature. No God person anywhere.

That is true in your world. But in our Christian world God lives within
all of us. It's only that some people don't want to acknowledge Him, for
like Julian Huxley said: "I presume the idea of God interferes with
people's sexual mores."
"Natural processes" is only the stage upon which life takes place. God
represents the ideals we all aspire to, and which make our lives worth
living in their pursuit.

I acknowledge the creation force, but I don't see any of the creation force
in the Christian Bible, only mediocre anthropomorphised story telling.
--
Andrew W.
�Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of
any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of
existence.�
~ Robert Anton Wilson
"The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it describes
God as a mass murderer. This may be the single most important key to the
political behaviour of Western Civilization.�
~ Robert Anton Wilson
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.

User: "Barry OGrady"
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	14 May 2006 10:28:59 PM

On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:40:39 -0400, "Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote:

"Andrew W" <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4463c761$0$28362$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

All we see is the natural processes of nature. No God person anywhere.

Interesting. You are admitting that God exists only in your imagination as
a concept, which is the same as not existing.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	15 May 2006 09:54:18 PM

"Barry OGrady" <god_free_jones@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dvff6219tjq58pg4pgk6gc2440msor76q2@4ax.com...

On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:40:39 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote:

"Andrew W" <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4463c761$0$28362$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

All we see is the natural processes of nature. No God person anywhere.

That is true in your world. But in our Christian world God lives
within
all of us. It's only that some people don't want to acknowledge Him, for
like Julian Huxley said: "I presume the idea of God interferes with
people's
sexual mores."
"Natural processes" is only the stage upon which life takes place. God
represents the ideals we all aspire to, and which make our lives worth
living in their pursuit.

Interesting. You are admitting that God exists only in your imagination as
a concept, which is the same as not existing.

Our God both exists and does not exist, as all qualities do. Get used to
it already, Barry!!!!
.

User: "Barry OGrady"
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	16 May 2006 06:10:17 AM

On Mon, 15 May 2006 22:54:18 -0400, "Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote:

"Barry OGrady" <god_free_jones@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dvff6219tjq58pg4pgk6gc2440msor76q2@4ax.com...

On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:40:39 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote:

"Andrew W" <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4463c761$0$28362$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

All we see is the natural processes of nature. No God person anywhere.

That is true in your world. But in our Christian world God lives
within
all of us. It's only that some people don't want to acknowledge Him, for
like Julian Huxley said: "I presume the idea of God interferes with
people's
sexual mores."
"Natural processes" is only the stage upon which life takes place. God
represents the ideals we all aspire to, and which make our lives worth
living in their pursuit.

Interesting. You are admitting that God exists only in your imagination as
a concept, which is the same as not existing.

Our God both exists and does not exist, as all qualities do. Get used to
it already, Barry!!!!

You are losing it, if you ever had it.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	15 May 2006 11:21:14 PM

Pastor Frank wrote:

"Barry OGrady" <god_free_jones@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dvff6219tjq58pg4pgk6gc2440msor76q2@4ax.com...

On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:40:39 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote:

"Andrew W" <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4463c761$0$28362$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

All we see is the natural processes of nature. No God person anywhere.

That is true in your world. But in our Christian world God lives
within
all of us. It's only that some people don't want to acknowledge Him, for
like Julian Huxley said: "I presume the idea of God interferes with
people's
sexual mores."
"Natural processes" is only the stage upon which life takes place. God
represents the ideals we all aspire to, and which make our lives worth
living in their pursuit.

Interesting. You are admitting that God exists only in your imagination as
a concept, which is the same as not existing.

Our God both exists and does not exist, as all qualities do. Get used to
it already, Barry!!!!

===>Get used to it, Barry, that "pastor" Frank is an idiot! -- L.
.

User: "Barry OGrady"
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	16 May 2006 06:10:59 AM

On Mon, 15 May 2006 22:21:14 -0600, Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:

Pastor Frank wrote:

"Barry OGrady" <god_free_jones@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dvff6219tjq58pg4pgk6gc2440msor76q2@4ax.com...

On Fri, 12 May 2006 07:40:39 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote:

"Andrew W" <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4463c761$0$28362$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

All we see is the natural processes of nature. No God person anywhere.

That is true in your world. But in our Christian world God lives
within
all of us. It's only that some people don't want to acknowledge Him, for
like Julian Huxley said: "I presume the idea of God interferes with
people's
sexual mores."
"Natural processes" is only the stage upon which life takes place. God
represents the ideals we all aspire to, and which make our lives worth
living in their pursuit.

Interesting. You are admitting that God exists only in your imagination as
a concept, which is the same as not existing.

Our God both exists and does not exist, as all qualities do. Get used to
it already, Barry!!!!

===>Get used to it, Barry, that "pastor" Frank is an idiot! -- L.

I'm used to that. Really we should not bait the mentally ill.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: WHY I LEFT ATHEISM	16 May 2006 11:10:53 AM

Barry OGrady wrote: