Steve Winter wrote:

It is interesting that false-christian scum like the gutless anon
devil posting as

Why should they bother? Those who do you simply ignore.

I do know who Jesus is. Consider:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham was, I am.

Many try to connect the words translated from the Greek in John 8:58 as "I
am" with the words translated from the Hebrew in Exodus 3:14 as "I am".
From this possible connection two conclusions can drawn.

1. Since Christ was before Abraham, Christ must have existed prior to his
birth on earth.

"Steve Winter" <steve.NO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message
news:1102096989./GoeCJ0sNm66s6LLRqkJOg@teranews...

"Phil" <plogank@yahoo.com> spake thusly and wrote:

There had just been a great manifestation of God, but Nadab and
Abihu, instead of obeying God, decided to do things their way,
and for their efforts incurred the wrath of Jesus.

How could Nadab and Abihu have "incurred the wrath of Jesus" when he had

not

yet been born?

I see you do not know who Jesus is.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said,
Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent
me unto you.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they
seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they
understand.

Pastor Winter
--

I do know who Jesus is. Consider:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham was, I am.

Many try to connect the words translated from the Greek in John 8:58 as "I
am" with the words translated from the Hebrew in Exodus 3:14 as "I am".
From this possible connection two conclusions can drawn.

1. Since Christ was before Abraham, Christ must have existed prior to
his
birth on earth.

2. Since Christ says, "I am" he is alluding to the divine name, thereby
in effect telling the Jews that he is "Very God".

As to the first conclusion, Christ's reference to Abraham was not to speak
of his pre-existence. He was not claiming to be literally older than
Abraham. This can be seen in a prior remark in verse 56, "Your father
Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad." "Abraham,
to whom the Gospel was preached (Gal. 3:8), saw the day of Christ through
the eye of faith. Christ was 'foreordained before the foundation of the
word, but manifested in these last times' (1 Pet. 1:20) He was
foreordained
in the divine purpose, but not formed. Similarly in the divine purpose he
was the 'Lamb slain from the foundation of the world' (Rev. 13:8) but
literally he was not slain until his crucifixion in the time of Pilate."
(1) Considering the above, it becomes clear that Christ was affirming his
pre-eminence not his pre-existence.

As to the second conclusion, there's no proof that Christ was alluding to
the divine name. In fact, there are some real questions as to how Exodus
3:14 should be translated. In the Tanakh, a recent translation of the Old
Testament by The Jewish Publication Society, the Hebrew words
"Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" are not even translated into English because the
meaning
of the Hebrew words are uncertain. The translators say in a footnote the
words are "variously translated: 'I Am That I Am'; 'I Am Who I Am'; 'I
Will
Be What I Will Be'; ect." (2) If we can't be sure how the Hebrew words
should be translated, how can we be sure that Christ was alluding to the
divine name.

There's another way to compare the words of Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58.
The
Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek as
found
in the Septuagint were fluent in both languages. It is reasonable to
assume
that if they produced the same Greek words in Exodus 3:14 as found in the
Greek of John 8:58 then there might be a connection.

In checking the Septuagint at Exodus 3:14 it can be seen that the Hebrew
words "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" are translated into the Greek words "ego eimi ho
ohn". These words translated into English mean "I am the Being". In the
Greek New Testament the words "prin abraam genesthai ego eimi" or "before
Abraham was, I AM" are found in John 8:58.

From the above comparison of the Septuagint and the Greek New Testament it
can be seen the words don't quite match. "I am the Being" versus "I am".
In fact, looking a little closer, the words in John 8:58 don't form a
complete sentence. Those who would connect the words in Exodus 3:14 with
the word found in John 8:58 would have Jesus responding to the Jews with
an
incomplete thought. There's a predicate missing.

It would seem that however you look at it, there's too much uncertainty
about how the words should be translated in Exodus 3:14 to say they are
connected with the "I Am" of John 8:58. There's strong evidence to
indicate
the most accurate translation of "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" is "I will be what I
will be". This would make the connection even more unreasonable.

Something else to consider about whether Jesus was alluding to the divine
name in John 8:58. "For him to do so would be inconsistent with all he
said
in chapter 8. 'In John 8:16,26,28,29,38,40,42,50,54,55 Jesus repeatedly
acknowledges the supremacy of the Father over himself and his own
dependence upon the Father, and that the Father sent him, and that he
does
nothing of himself." (3)

References:

(1) Ron Able, Wrested Scriptures (Pasadena, CA: Geddes Press), p. 194

(2) Tanakh The Holy Scriptures (Philadelphia & Jerusalem, The Jewish
Publication Society, 1985) p. 88

(3) Information in an e-mail message to the author from Brian DeFord
<bdeford@nova.org>, Dec. 13, 1997.

(4) Jay P. Green, Sr., Interlinear Greek-English New Testament 3d ed.
(Grand
Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1996) p.349

"Steve Winter" <steve.NO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message
news:1102096989./GoeCJ0sNm66s6LLRqkJOg@teranews...

"Phil" <plogank@yahoo.com> spake thusly and wrote:

There had just been a great manifestation of God, but Nadab and
Abihu, instead of obeying God, decided to do things their way,
and for their efforts incurred the wrath of Jesus.

How could Nadab and Abihu have "incurred the wrath of Jesus" when
he had

not

yet been born?

I see you do not know who Jesus is.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said,
Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent
me unto you.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they
seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they
understand.

Pastor Winter
--

I do know who Jesus is. Consider:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.

Many try to connect the words translated from the Greek in John 8:58
as "I am" with the words translated from the Hebrew in Exodus 3:14
as "I am". From this possible connection two conclusions can drawn.

1. Since Christ was before Abraham, Christ must have existed
prior to his birth on earth.

2. Since Christ says, "I am" he is alluding to the divine name,
thereby in effect telling the Jews that he is "Very God".

As to the first conclusion, Christ's reference to Abraham was not to
speak
of his pre-existence. He was not claiming to be literally older
than
Abraham. This can be seen in a prior remark in verse 56, "Your
father
Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad."
"Abraham, to whom the Gospel was preached (Gal. 3:8), saw the day of
Christ through the eye of faith. Christ was 'foreordained before the
foundation of the
word, but manifested in these last times' (1 Pet. 1:20) He was
foreordained
in the divine purpose, but not formed. Similarly in the divine
purpose he was the 'Lamb slain from the foundation of the world'
(Rev. 13:8) but literally he was not slain until his crucifixion in
the time of Pilate."
(1) Considering the above, it becomes clear that Christ was
affirming his pre-eminence not his pre-existence.

As to the second conclusion, there's no proof that Christ was
alluding to
the divine name. In fact, there are some real questions as to how
Exodus
3:14 should be translated. In the Tanakh, a recent translation of
the Old Testament by The Jewish Publication Society, the Hebrew
words "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" are not even translated into English
because the meaning
of the Hebrew words are uncertain. The translators say in a
footnote the words are "variously translated: 'I Am That I Am'; 'I
Am Who I Am'; 'I Will Be What I Will Be'; ect." (2) If we can't be
sure how the Hebrew words should be translated, how can we be sure
that Christ was alluding to the divine name.

There's another way to compare the words of Exodus 3:14 and John
8:58. The Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew Old Testament
into Greek as found
in the Septuagint were fluent in both languages. It is reasonable
to assume that if they produced the same Greek words in Exodus 3:14
as found in the Greek of John 8:58 then there might be a connection.

In checking the Septuagint at Exodus 3:14 it can be seen that the
Hebrew words "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" are translated into the Greek words
"ego eimi ho
ohn". These words translated into English mean "I am the Being".
In the Greek New Testament the words "prin abraam genesthai ego
eimi" or "before Abraham was, I AM" are found in John 8:58.

From the above comparison of the Septuagint and the Greek New
Testament it
can be seen the words don't quite match. "I am the Being" versus "I
am". In fact, looking a little closer, the words in John 8:58 don't
form a
complete sentence. Those who would connect the words in Exodus 3:14
with the word found in John 8:58 would have Jesus responding to the
Jews with an incomplete thought. There's a predicate missing.

It would seem that however you look at it, there's too much
uncertainty about how the words should be translated in Exodus 3:14
to say they are
connected with the "I Am" of John 8:58. There's strong evidence to
indicate the most accurate translation of "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" is "I
will be what I
will be". This would make the connection even more unreasonable.

Something else to consider about whether Jesus was alluding to the
divine
name in John 8:58. "For him to do so would be inconsistent with all
he said in chapter 8. 'In John 8:16,26,28,29,38,40,42,50,54,55 Jesus
repeatedly
acknowledges the supremacy of the Father over himself and his own
dependence upon the Father, and that the Father sent him, and that
he does nothing of himself." (3)

References:

(1) Ron Able, Wrested Scriptures (Pasadena, CA: Geddes Press), p.
194

(2) Tanakh The Holy Scriptures (Philadelphia & Jerusalem, The Jewish
Publication Society, 1985) p. 88

(3) Information in an e-mail message to the author from Brian DeFord
<bdeford@nova.org>, Dec. 13, 1997.

(4) Jay P. Green, Sr., Interlinear Greek-English New Testament 3d
ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1996) p.349

"Steve Winter" <steve.NO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message
news:1102096989./GoeCJ0sNm66s6LLRqkJOg@teranews...

"Phil" <plogank@yahoo.com> spake thusly and wrote:

There had just been a great manifestation of God, but Nadab and
Abihu, instead of obeying God, decided to do things their way,
and for their efforts incurred the wrath of Jesus.

How could Nadab and Abihu have "incurred the wrath of Jesus" when he had

not

yet been born?

I see you do not know who Jesus is.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said,
Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent
me unto you.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they
seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they
understand.

Pastor Winter
--

I do know who Jesus is. Consider:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham was, I am.

Many try to connect the words translated from the Greek in John 8:58 as "I
am" with the words translated from the Hebrew in Exodus 3:14 as "I am".
From this possible connection two conclusions can drawn.

1. Since Christ was before Abraham, Christ must have existed prior to
his
birth on earth.

2. Since Christ says, "I am" he is alluding to the divine name, thereby
in effect telling the Jews that he is "Very God".

As to the first conclusion, Christ's reference to Abraham was not to speak
of his pre-existence. He was not claiming to be literally older than
Abraham. This can be seen in a prior remark in verse 56, "Your father
Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad." "Abraham,
to whom the Gospel was preached (Gal. 3:8), saw the day of Christ through
the eye of faith. Christ was 'foreordained before the foundation of the
word, but manifested in these last times' (1 Pet. 1:20) He was
foreordained
in the divine purpose, but not formed. Similarly in the divine purpose he
was the 'Lamb slain from the foundation of the world' (Rev. 13:8) but
literally he was not slain until his crucifixion in the time of Pilate."
(1) Considering the above, it becomes clear that Christ was affirming his
pre-eminence not his pre-existence.

As to the second conclusion, there's no proof that Christ was alluding to
the divine name. In fact, there are some real questions as to how Exodus
3:14 should be translated. In the Tanakh, a recent translation of the Old
Testament by The Jewish Publication Society, the Hebrew words
"Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" are not even translated into English because the
meaning
of the Hebrew words are uncertain. The translators say in a footnote the
words are "variously translated: 'I Am That I Am'; 'I Am Who I Am'; 'I
Will
Be What I Will Be'; ect." (2) If we can't be sure how the Hebrew words
should be translated, how can we be sure that Christ was alluding to the
divine name.

There's another way to compare the words of Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58.
The
Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek as
found
in the Septuagint were fluent in both languages. It is reasonable to
assume
that if they produced the same Greek words in Exodus 3:14 as found in the
Greek of John 8:58 then there might be a connection.

In checking the Septuagint at Exodus 3:14 it can be seen that the Hebrew
words "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" are translated into the Greek words "ego eimi ho
ohn". These words translated into English mean "I am the Being". In the
Greek New Testament the words "prin abraam genesthai ego eimi" or "before
Abraham was, I AM" are found in John 8:58.

From the above comparison of the Septuagint and the Greek New Testament it
can be seen the words don't quite match. "I am the Being" versus "I am".
In fact, looking a little closer, the words in John 8:58 don't form a
complete sentence. Those who would connect the words in Exodus 3:14 with
the word found in John 8:58 would have Jesus responding to the Jews with
an
incomplete thought. There's a predicate missing.

It would seem that however you look at it, there's too much uncertainty
about how the words should be translated in Exodus 3:14 to say they are
connected with the "I Am" of John 8:58. There's strong evidence to
indicate
the most accurate translation of "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" is "I will be what I
will be". This would make the connection even more unreasonable.

Something else to consider about whether Jesus was alluding to the divine
name in John 8:58. "For him to do so would be inconsistent with all he
said
in chapter 8. 'In John 8:16,26,28,29,38,40,42,50,54,55 Jesus repeatedly
acknowledges the supremacy of the Father over himself and his own
dependence upon the Father, and that the Father sent him, and that he
does
nothing of himself." (3)

References:

(1) Ron Able, Wrested Scriptures (Pasadena, CA: Geddes Press), p. 194

(2) Tanakh The Holy Scriptures (Philadelphia & Jerusalem, The Jewish
Publication Society, 1985) p. 88

(3) Information in an e-mail message to the author from Brian DeFord
<bdeford@nova.org>, Dec. 13, 1997.

(4) Jay P. Green, Sr., Interlinear Greek-English New Testament 3d ed.
(Grand
Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1996) p.349

"Steve Winter" <steve.NO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message
news:1102096989./GoeCJ0sNm66s6LLRqkJOg@teranews...

"Phil" <plogank@yahoo.com> spake thusly and wrote:

There had just been a great manifestation of God, but Nadab and
Abihu, instead of obeying God, decided to do things their way,
and for their efforts incurred the wrath of Jesus.

How could Nadab and Abihu have "incurred the wrath of Jesus" when he had

not

yet been born?

I see you do not know who Jesus is.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said,
Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent
me unto you.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they
seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they
understand.

Pastor Winter
--

I do know who Jesus is. Consider:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham was, I am.

Many try to connect the words translated from the Greek in John 8:58 as "I
am" with the words translated from the Hebrew in Exodus 3:14 as "I am".
From this possible connection two conclusions can drawn.

1. Since Christ was before Abraham, Christ must have existed prior to
his
birth on earth.

2. Since Christ says, "I am" he is alluding to the divine name, thereby
in effect telling the Jews that he is "Very God".

As to the first conclusion, Christ's reference to Abraham was not to speak
of his pre-existence. He was not claiming to be literally older than
Abraham. This can be seen in a prior remark in verse 56, "Your father
Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad." "Abraham,
to whom the Gospel was preached (Gal. 3:8), saw the day of Christ through
the eye of faith. Christ was 'foreordained before the foundation of the
word, but manifested in these last times' (1 Pet. 1:20) He was
foreordained
in the divine purpose, but not formed. Similarly in the divine purpose he
was the 'Lamb slain from the foundation of the world' (Rev. 13:8) but
literally he was not slain until his crucifixion in the time of Pilate."
(1) Considering the above, it becomes clear that Christ was affirming his
pre-eminence not his pre-existence.

As to the second conclusion, there's no proof that Christ was alluding to
the divine name. In fact, there are some real questions as to how Exodus
3:14 should be translated. In the Tanakh, a recent translation of the Old
Testament by The Jewish Publication Society, the Hebrew words
"Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" are not even translated into English because the
meaning
of the Hebrew words are uncertain. The translators say in a footnote the
words are "variously translated: 'I Am That I Am'; 'I Am Who I Am'; 'I
Will
Be What I Will Be'; ect." (2) If we can't be sure how the Hebrew words
should be translated, how can we be sure that Christ was alluding to the
divine name.

There's another way to compare the words of Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58.
The
Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek as
found
in the Septuagint were fluent in both languages. It is reasonable to
assume
that if they produced the same Greek words in Exodus 3:14 as found in the
Greek of John 8:58 then there might be a connection.

In checking the Septuagint at Exodus 3:14 it can be seen that the Hebrew
words "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" are translated into the Greek words "ego eimi ho
ohn". These words translated into English mean "I am the Being". In the
Greek New Testament the words "prin abraam genesthai ego eimi" or "before
Abraham was, I AM" are found in John 8:58.

From the above comparison of the Septuagint and the Greek New Testament it
can be seen the words don't quite match. "I am the Being" versus "I am".
In fact, looking a little closer, the words in John 8:58 don't form a
complete sentence. Those who would connect the words in Exodus 3:14 with
the word found in John 8:58 would have Jesus responding to the Jews with
an
incomplete thought. There's a predicate missing.

It would seem that however you look at it, there's too much uncertainty
about how the words should be translated in Exodus 3:14 to say they are
connected with the "I Am" of John 8:58. There's strong evidence to
indicate
the most accurate translation of "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" is "I will be what I
will be". This would make the connection even more unreasonable.

Something else to consider about whether Jesus was alluding to the divine
name in John 8:58. "For him to do so would be inconsistent with all he
said
in chapter 8. 'In John 8:16,26,28,29,38,40,42,50,54,55 Jesus repeatedly
acknowledges the supremacy of the Father over himself and his own
dependence upon the Father, and that the Father sent him, and that he
does
nothing of himself." (3)

References:

(1) Ron Able, Wrested Scriptures (Pasadena, CA: Geddes Press), p. 194

(2) Tanakh The Holy Scriptures (Philadelphia & Jerusalem, The Jewish
Publication Society, 1985) p. 88

(3) Information in an e-mail message to the author from Brian DeFord
<bdeford@nova.org>, Dec. 13, 1997.

(4) Jay P. Green, Sr., Interlinear Greek-English New Testament 3d ed.
(Grand
Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1996) p.349

alt <spamtrap@lazyeyez.net> spake thusly and wrote:

Because in Steve Winter's universe Jesus, the Son, is also the
Father (which is antithesis to the Bible).

It is good when gutless anon false-christian slime admit that
they don't really believe that Jesus is God.

Pastor Winter