| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Steve Dufour" |
| Date: |
29 Apr 2005 10:14:01 AM |
| Object: |
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus
David Klinghoffer explains what he wishes Christians understood about
the Jewish rejection of Jesus--in the 1st century & today.
Interview by Rebecca Phillips and Laura Sheahen
Jewish author David Klinghoffer has long been a thought-provoking voice
on Beliefnet, commenting on issues ranging from Jewish holidays to
politics to Mel Gibson's "Passion." His new book, "Why the Jews
Rejected Jesus," traces the history of the debate between Christians
and Jews over Jesus, from the first century to modern days. Beliefnet
editors Rebecca Phillips and Laura Sheahen, approaching the book from a
Jewish perspective and a Christian perspective, respectively, joined
Klinghoffer for a conversation about the meaning of Isaiah 53, would-be
messiahs in ancient Palestine, why Christian evangelism is healthy for
Jews, and contemporary Jewish-Christian relations.
LS: What's the general attitude toward Jesus in Judaism?
The reality is that Judaism doesn't regard Jesus as particularly
important. He's not a big subject. I wrote this book mainly for
non-Jews, because to them the Jewish view of Jesus is a much bigger
deal.
[Jewish radio personality] Michael Medved has made the point that this
is the one thing that all Jews have in common--that we don't accept
Jesus as our savior. That's the one and only thing on which all Jews
agree. For many Jews, tragically, that's where their Judaism ends. For
them, Judaism means we don't believe in Jesus. That's really a sad,
impoverished version of Judaism.
RP: What Medved said has a lot of implications about the current state
of Judaism itself within a larger Christian world. Jews often feel
threatened by Jesus. Why is that?
Well, there's obviously history, 2,000 years of friction. In my book, I
also deal with the historical backdrop. In the first century, there was
a perception of Christian Jews as essentially deserters. When Jerusalem
was under siege by Roman forces, the Jews looked around and discovered
that the Christian Jews had fled across the Jordan to safe ground.
LS: If you talked to a contemporary rabbi about Jesus, would he or she
consider Jesus a renegade rabbi who was a traitor to his religion, or a
good person whose followers went astray and became traitors?
There's a huge diversity of opinion. You have someone like Rabbi Irving
Greenberg, an Orthodox rabbi who is quite liberal and provocative, who
regards Jesus as having been a failed messiah. You also have [Talmudic
scholar] Jacob Emden, who died in 1776. He was traditionally
Orthodox--in no way a modernizer--and regarded Jesus as a hero who
brought religious civilization to the gentile world. He writes
amazingly positively of Jesus.
In a lot of ways, the [contemporary] rabbinate has not really caught up
to Emden. Most people don't know about his view of Jesus.
LS: Is Jesus ever mentioned in Hebrew school or in other Jewish
contexts?
There's a lot of Jewish ignorance about Christianity, a lot of fear and
mistrust--not so much about Jesus the person but about Christianity as
a historical phenomenon. Unfortunately, in every area of Jewish life,
you'll find people who have an irrational fear of Christianity. The
more serious the Christianity is--for example, evangelical
Christianity--the more of a bogeyman it becomes in the mind of some
Jews.
RP: I often find it hard to explain to serious Christians exactly how
Jews regard Jesus. I remember a conversation I had with a woman on the
subway who invited me to a Bible study class. When I explained that I
was Jewish and didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, she exclaimed,
"But he was such a great guy!" For a lot of Jews, that's the hardest
thing to explain--why we can believe he was a good person, but not the
Messiah. Are there a few talking points for Jews you can give us?
There's a lot of misunderstanding among Christians about how a Jew is
"saved." Even using that word, you're already using Christian
vocabulary. Christians, especially evangelicals, regard Judaism as a
system where you purchase salvation with acts, good deeds, sacrifices.
That's such a misunderstanding of Judaism.
Jews were assured that we had been "saved"--to use Christian
language--at Mount Sinai [where the Jews received the Torah]. The 613
mitzvot--commandments--are our response to being saved. They're the
grammar in which we conduct our relationship with God. The relationship
has already been given to us as an unmerited gift at Mount Sinai. Just
as there's a grammar of your relationship with your parents, your
friends, your spouse. It's the same with God and the Jews and the
Torah.
When Christians say, "You're receiving the gift of Jesus' sacrifice,"
it's like they're offering us a gift that we already had, in return for
giving up something--namely, our relationship with God expressed
through the Torah, through the commandments--that's the essence of what
we've been for 3,300 years.
For a non-Jew, the offer of Christianity is wonderful. For a Jew, the
offer of Christianity is getting something you already had, and giving
up something of eternal, immeasurable worth--namely a unique
relationship with God.
LS: In your book, you talk about meeting a window washer in Seattle who
is sincerely puzzled that Jews don't accept Jesus. Many Christians feel
there's this overwhelming stack of evidence--usually connections made
between the New Testament and the Hebrew scriptures--"proving" that
Jesus is the promised Messiah. What should both Christians and Jews
know when a Christian says, "clearly Isaiah shows that Jesus is the
one"?
One thing to know is that for every Christian claim about, for example,
Isaiah 53 [which describes a "suffering servant" who is persecuted to
redeem the sins of his people], there's a Jewish response.
You can make an intelligent case from Isaiah 53 on behalf of Jesus. You
can construe the Hebrew prophets as if they pointed forward to Jesus.
But you can construe them to mean lots of different things. Shabbatai
Zevi, the false messiah of the 17th century--his followers used those
very same texts, including Isaiah 53, to prove that Shabbatai Zevi had
to undergo suffering as the Messiah. You can use these texts to prove
virtually anything.
What do Jews say the Messiah will be like? Read more >>
LS: And your book says first-century Palestine was full of would-be
Messiahs--a lot of people going around [like Jesus] with healing powers
and other things.
Right. For Jews to give up the unique relationship with God that we
have on the basis of a plausible, but by no means the only plausible,
interpretation of scripture, is asking a lot.
There are one or two verses in the Hebrew Bible that some Christians
will point to as showing that the laws were going to be transcended or
discarded. But if you look at the context, those verses, to my mind,
don't indicate that.
But even if you thought the Christian interpretation was plausible,
it's only a couple of verses. To base a decision to give up Torah on a
couple of ambiguous verses in Jeremiah is not, to me, a serious
response for a Jew. For a Christian, who defines his spirituality
through the lens of the New Testament, it's different. The Christian
prioritizes the new over the old.
LS: What do Jews believe the Messiah will be like, and how does Jesus
differ from this?
The Messiah will change the world. There won't be any question about
whether he's come.
LS: It will be completely obvious?
Yes. There's no indication that it will be a test if someone accepts
him. In my book, I make the analogy of seeing a woman who's clearly
pregnant, and then later her stomach is flat. There's no need to ask,
"Did you have the baby?"
The trite response is, "Jesus didn't bring world peace." That's just
the beginning. Ezekiel describes the third temple being built in the
time of the Messiah--things anyone with eyes can verify.
Some Christians will say, it's a two-part process.
LS: Or they'll say it's metaphorical.
Well, if it's metaphorical, then everything's up for grabs. They'll be
inconsistent about what's literal and what's metaphorical; Jews have a
tradition that tells us what to understand literally and what
figuratively.
LS: So the Christian interpretation of the rebuilt temple being Jesus'
resurrection--that kind of symbolic, metaphorical reading--just doesn't
work in terms of Jewish beliefs about the Messiah? You're saying the
actual temple will be there. It will be an actual stone building?
There's no question. In the last chapter of Ezekiel, he describes a
temple in great detail, down to exact measurements. The measurements
are all wrong if it's supposed to be the First or Second Temple. So
either he's describing something that's never going to happen or
something that will happen.
Christians and Jews who take prophecy seriously can't understand his
very architectural description as a metaphor. It clearly hasn't
happened yet.
RP: I had never realized that Jesus was censored from the Talmud. You
write that all mentions of Jesus were removed in the 16th century to
avoid Christian wrath. I wonder if we would have been saved a lot of
interfaith relations problems later if he had been left in. How did
that happen and why?
There are a handful of references to Jesus in the pre-censored text of
the Talmud. I struggled with whether to bring this up in my book,
because some of them are off-color and offensive, certainly to
Christians.
RP: Offensive because of the way Jesus is depicted?
The Talmud described his being punished after death--in a way that is
clearly meant to be a metaphor. The story is a vision of villains
suffering in hell, and one is of Jesus in hell [for 70 years]. It's
clearly a metaphor, because Jews don't believe people suffer in hell
longer than a year.
LS: So Jews believe people suffer in hell for a year?
Up to a year, if you've committed evils and haven't repented. In Jewish
terms, it's not possible for Jesus to have been in hell 70 years after
he died. It's clearly meant as a metaphor.
Nevertheless, I struggled with whether to bring things like that up at
all. Why hurt the feelings of Christians? In many ways, it's the most
religious Christians who are our very best friends--because they are
friends of Israel and are on our side morally. But I ultimately decided
that you can't write an honest history of the Jewish-Christian debate
about Jesus without bringing up some disturbing things. The truth is,
anti-Semites are already aware of this.
LS: What do Jews wish Christians understood about their feelings about
Jesus?
I'd like them to understand that there is a serious and pretty massive
response to Jewish arguments on behalf of Jesus. The story I tell in
the book about being evangelized--that happens not infrequently. My
friend Michael Medved, who speaks to a lot of Christian groups, tells
me he gets asked about five times a week by Christians, in effect, "You
seem like such a wonderful person, why don't you accept Jesus?"
It's not out of ignorance or impiety or not caring that Jews remain
Jews. It's because we take the Hebrew Bible seriously. Christians,
especially evangelicals--who also take the Hebrew Bible very
seriously--should be able to understand that.
In a sense, I welcome Christian evangelism, because I think it's a very
healthy challenge and prod to Jews. In my own case, my whole journey to
Orthodox Judaism started because I got into an argument with a Jew for
Jesus in 1982 on the UCLA campus. He argued with me about Isaiah 53 and
showed me I didn't know anything about my inherited religion. I was
disturbed by that, and it made we want to go out and learn more about
the religion I'd been raised in.
For a lot of Jews it's the same. We sort of blithely go along and say,
"To be a Jew means we don't believe in Jesus," which is nonsense.
Christians, when they evangelize us in their sweet, respectful
way-which is always the case in my experience-are challenging us to
learn more about our own religion.
RP: At the same time, Jews spend millions each year on
counter-missionary efforts. I doubt whether most Jews would say,
"evangelism is a blessing."
I'm friendly with the guys at Jews for Judaism. They do a great job. I
don't mean this in an insulting way to Christians, but when your body
gets an infection it produces antibodies, and the antibodies are good
to have around. Jews for Judaism wouldn't exist if it were not for Jews
for Jesus. Jews for Jesus doesn't have a lot of success attracting
actual Jews. A lot of the people who attend Messianic synagogue are not
Jewish by birth.
LS: There have been many recent debates about religion in the public
square. But do Jews feel uncomfortable seeing a creche scene on
someone's lawn, or a crucifix or painting in someone's home?
There are definitely Jews who, while driving around a non-Jewish
neighborhood and seeing a depiction of the Nativity on someone's lawn,
would think "Oh, it's evangelism." It's a minority of Jews, but there
are some Jews who have a very thin skin about any hint of any religion
whatsoever. Not that they would take offense at a crucifix in someone's
home, but they might feel "they might try to evangelize me." There's a
weird fear, as if Jews haven't learned how to say "no thank you." I
don't understand the fear, but it's definitely there.
LS: For many Christians, the Hebrew scriptural links are prioritized,
as you said, according to how well they mesh with the story of Jesus.
The interpretations are so ingrained. It's a big conundrum--how to
gently explain to Christians that the evidence linking the Old
Testament and New Testament isn't quite as self-evident as most
Christians believe.
The only point where I disagree is "gently." My preference is for
vigorous civilized debate in these issues.
LS: What about on a more personal level--when you're in someone's
living room?
Yeah, for sure. We live in a really special time when Jews and
Christians for the first time can discuss these questions in a spirit
of friendship and love, not in a spirit of being threatened or angry.
We should take that opportunity and not pretend it's still the Middle
Ages when a Jew could get killed for saying the wrong thing.
Rebecca Phillips and Laura Sheahen are Beliefnet editors.
.
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| User: "gab" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 03:07:38 PM |
|
|
"Steve Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus
David Klinghoffer explains what he wishes Christians understood about
the Jewish rejection of Jesus--in the 1st century & today.
JEWS DO NOT ACCEPT JESUS ESSENTIALLY BECAUSE JUDAISM FLOWS FROM THE
ONEBESS OF THE ONE GOD, THE PRINCIPLE OF MONOTHEISM. CHRISTIANITY REVERTED
IN FACT TO PAGAN POLITEISM VIA THE TRINITY.
ALASO JUDAISM DOES NOT DEAL WITH SALVATION FROM SIN. THAT IS UP TO EACH
INDIVIDUAL'S CONSCIENCE. THE MESSIAH WAS AND REMAINS A REDEEMER FROM ALIEN
SUBJUGATION AND IS RELATED TO HUMAN POLITICAL SURVIVAL OF JUDAISM.
Interview by Rebecca Phillips and Laura Sheahen
Jewish author David Klinghoffer has long been a thought-provoking voice
on Beliefnet, commenting on issues ranging from Jewish holidays to
politics to Mel Gibson's "Passion." His new book, "Why the Jews
Rejected Jesus," traces the history of the debate between Christians
and Jews over Jesus, from the first century to modern days. Beliefnet
editors Rebecca Phillips and Laura Sheahen, approaching the book from a
Jewish perspective and a Christian perspective, respectively, joined
Klinghoffer for a conversation about the meaning of Isaiah 53, would-be
messiahs in ancient Palestine, why Christian evangelism is healthy for
Jews, and contemporary Jewish-Christian relations.
LS: What's the general attitude toward Jesus in Judaism?
The reality is that Judaism doesn't regard Jesus as particularly
important. He's not a big subject. I wrote this book mainly for
non-Jews, because to them the Jewish view of Jesus is a much bigger
deal.
[Jewish radio personality] Michael Medved has made the point that this
is the one thing that all Jews have in common--that we don't accept
Jesus as our savior. That's the one and only thing on which all Jews
agree. For many Jews, tragically, that's where their Judaism ends. For
them, Judaism means we don't believe in Jesus. That's really a sad,
impoverished version of Judaism.
RP: What Medved said has a lot of implications about the current state
of Judaism itself within a larger Christian world. Jews often feel
threatened by Jesus. Why is that?
Well, there's obviously history, 2,000 years of friction. In my book, I
also deal with the historical backdrop. In the first century, there was
a perception of Christian Jews as essentially deserters. When Jerusalem
was under siege by Roman forces, the Jews looked around and discovered
that the Christian Jews had fled across the Jordan to safe ground.
LS: If you talked to a contemporary rabbi about Jesus, would he or she
consider Jesus a renegade rabbi who was a traitor to his religion, or a
good person whose followers went astray and became traitors?
There's a huge diversity of opinion. You have someone like Rabbi Irving
Greenberg, an Orthodox rabbi who is quite liberal and provocative, who
regards Jesus as having been a failed messiah. You also have [Talmudic
scholar] Jacob Emden, who died in 1776. He was traditionally
Orthodox--in no way a modernizer--and regarded Jesus as a hero who
brought religious civilization to the gentile world. He writes
amazingly positively of Jesus.
In a lot of ways, the [contemporary] rabbinate has not really caught up
to Emden. Most people don't know about his view of Jesus.
LS: Is Jesus ever mentioned in Hebrew school or in other Jewish
contexts?
There's a lot of Jewish ignorance about Christianity, a lot of fear and
mistrust--not so much about Jesus the person but about Christianity as
a historical phenomenon. Unfortunately, in every area of Jewish life,
you'll find people who have an irrational fear of Christianity. The
more serious the Christianity is--for example, evangelical
Christianity--the more of a bogeyman it becomes in the mind of some
Jews.
RP: I often find it hard to explain to serious Christians exactly how
Jews regard Jesus. I remember a conversation I had with a woman on the
subway who invited me to a Bible study class. When I explained that I
was Jewish and didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, she exclaimed,
"But he was such a great guy!" For a lot of Jews, that's the hardest
thing to explain--why we can believe he was a good person, but not the
Messiah. Are there a few talking points for Jews you can give us?
There's a lot of misunderstanding among Christians about how a Jew is
"saved." Even using that word, you're already using Christian
vocabulary. Christians, especially evangelicals, regard Judaism as a
system where you purchase salvation with acts, good deeds, sacrifices.
That's such a misunderstanding of Judaism.
Jews were assured that we had been "saved"--to use Christian
language--at Mount Sinai [where the Jews received the Torah]. The 613
mitzvot--commandments--are our response to being saved. They're the
grammar in which we conduct our relationship with God. The relationship
has already been given to us as an unmerited gift at Mount Sinai. Just
as there's a grammar of your relationship with your parents, your
friends, your spouse. It's the same with God and the Jews and the
Torah.
When Christians say, "You're receiving the gift of Jesus' sacrifice,"
it's like they're offering us a gift that we already had, in return for
giving up something--namely, our relationship with God expressed
through the Torah, through the commandments--that's the essence of what
we've been for 3,300 years.
For a non-Jew, the offer of Christianity is wonderful. For a Jew, the
offer of Christianity is getting something you already had, and giving
up something of eternal, immeasurable worth--namely a unique
relationship with God.
LS: In your book, you talk about meeting a window washer in Seattle who
is sincerely puzzled that Jews don't accept Jesus. Many Christians feel
there's this overwhelming stack of evidence--usually connections made
between the New Testament and the Hebrew scriptures--"proving" that
Jesus is the promised Messiah. What should both Christians and Jews
know when a Christian says, "clearly Isaiah shows that Jesus is the
one"?
One thing to know is that for every Christian claim about, for example,
Isaiah 53 [which describes a "suffering servant" who is persecuted to
redeem the sins of his people], there's a Jewish response.
You can make an intelligent case from Isaiah 53 on behalf of Jesus. You
can construe the Hebrew prophets as if they pointed forward to Jesus.
But you can construe them to mean lots of different things. Shabbatai
Zevi, the false messiah of the 17th century--his followers used those
very same texts, including Isaiah 53, to prove that Shabbatai Zevi had
to undergo suffering as the Messiah. You can use these texts to prove
virtually anything.
What do Jews say the Messiah will be like? Read more >>
LS: And your book says first-century Palestine was full of would-be
Messiahs--a lot of people going around [like Jesus] with healing powers
and other things.
Right. For Jews to give up the unique relationship with God that we
have on the basis of a plausible, but by no means the only plausible,
interpretation of scripture, is asking a lot.
There are one or two verses in the Hebrew Bible that some Christians
will point to as showing that the laws were going to be transcended or
discarded. But if you look at the context, those verses, to my mind,
don't indicate that.
But even if you thought the Christian interpretation was plausible,
it's only a couple of verses. To base a decision to give up Torah on a
couple of ambiguous verses in Jeremiah is not, to me, a serious
response for a Jew. For a Christian, who defines his spirituality
through the lens of the New Testament, it's different. The Christian
prioritizes the new over the old.
LS: What do Jews believe the Messiah will be like, and how does Jesus
differ from this?
The Messiah will change the world. There won't be any question about
whether he's come.
LS: It will be completely obvious?
Yes. There's no indication that it will be a test if someone accepts
him. In my book, I make the analogy of seeing a woman who's clearly
pregnant, and then later her stomach is flat. There's no need to ask,
"Did you have the baby?"
The trite response is, "Jesus didn't bring world peace." That's just
the beginning. Ezekiel describes the third temple being built in the
time of the Messiah--things anyone with eyes can verify.
Some Christians will say, it's a two-part process.
LS: Or they'll say it's metaphorical.
Well, if it's metaphorical, then everything's up for grabs. They'll be
inconsistent about what's literal and what's metaphorical; Jews have a
tradition that tells us what to understand literally and what
figuratively.
LS: So the Christian interpretation of the rebuilt temple being Jesus'
resurrection--that kind of symbolic, metaphorical reading--just doesn't
work in terms of Jewish beliefs about the Messiah? You're saying the
actual temple will be there. It will be an actual stone building?
There's no question. In the last chapter of Ezekiel, he describes a
temple in great detail, down to exact measurements. The measurements
are all wrong if it's supposed to be the First or Second Temple. So
either he's describing something that's never going to happen or
something that will happen.
Christians and Jews who take prophecy seriously can't understand his
very architectural description as a metaphor. It clearly hasn't
happened yet.
RP: I had never realized that Jesus was censored from the Talmud. You
write that all mentions of Jesus were removed in the 16th century to
avoid Christian wrath. I wonder if we would have been saved a lot of
interfaith relations problems later if he had been left in. How did
that happen and why?
There are a handful of references to Jesus in the pre-censored text of
the Talmud. I struggled with whether to bring this up in my book,
because some of them are off-color and offensive, certainly to
Christians.
RP: Offensive because of the way Jesus is depicted?
The Talmud described his being punished after death--in a way that is
clearly meant to be a metaphor. The story is a vision of villains
suffering in hell, and one is of Jesus in hell [for 70 years]. It's
clearly a metaphor, because Jews don't believe people suffer in hell
longer than a year.
LS: So Jews believe people suffer in hell for a year?
Up to a year, if you've committed evils and haven't repented. In Jewish
terms, it's not possible for Jesus to have been in hell 70 years after
he died. It's clearly meant as a metaphor.
Nevertheless, I struggled with whether to bring things like that up at
all. Why hurt the feelings of Christians? In many ways, it's the most
religious Christians who are our very best friends--because they are
friends of Israel and are on our side morally. But I ultimately decided
that you can't write an honest history of the Jewish-Christian debate
about Jesus without bringing up some disturbing things. The truth is,
anti-Semites are already aware of this.
LS: What do Jews wish Christians understood about their feelings about
Jesus?
I'd like them to understand that there is a serious and pretty massive
response to Jewish arguments on behalf of Jesus. The story I tell in
the book about being evangelized--that happens not infrequently. My
friend Michael Medved, who speaks to a lot of Christian groups, tells
me he gets asked about five times a week by Christians, in effect, "You
seem like such a wonderful person, why don't you accept Jesus?"
It's not out of ignorance or impiety or not caring that Jews remain
Jews. It's because we take the Hebrew Bible seriously. Christians,
especially evangelicals--who also take the Hebrew Bible very
seriously--should be able to understand that.
In a sense, I welcome Christian evangelism, because I think it's a very
healthy challenge and prod to Jews. In my own case, my whole journey to
Orthodox Judaism started because I got into an argument with a Jew for
Jesus in 1982 on the UCLA campus. He argued with me about Isaiah 53 and
showed me I didn't know anything about my inherited religion. I was
disturbed by that, and it made we want to go out and learn more about
the religion I'd been raised in.
For a lot of Jews it's the same. We sort of blithely go along and say,
"To be a Jew means we don't believe in Jesus," which is nonsense.
Christians, when they evangelize us in their sweet, respectful
way-which is always the case in my experience-are challenging us to
learn more about our own religion.
RP: At the same time, Jews spend millions each year on
counter-missionary efforts. I doubt whether most Jews would say,
"evangelism is a blessing."
I'm friendly with the guys at Jews for Judaism. They do a great job. I
don't mean this in an insulting way to Christians, but when your body
gets an infection it produces antibodies, and the antibodies are good
to have around. Jews for Judaism wouldn't exist if it were not for Jews
for Jesus. Jews for Jesus doesn't have a lot of success attracting
actual Jews. A lot of the people who attend Messianic synagogue are not
Jewish by birth.
LS: There have been many recent debates about religion in the public
square. But do Jews feel uncomfortable seeing a creche scene on
someone's lawn, or a crucifix or painting in someone's home?
There are definitely Jews who, while driving around a non-Jewish
neighborhood and seeing a depiction of the Nativity on someone's lawn,
would think "Oh, it's evangelism." It's a minority of Jews, but there
are some Jews who have a very thin skin about any hint of any religion
whatsoever. Not that they would take offense at a crucifix in someone's
home, but they might feel "they might try to evangelize me." There's a
weird fear, as if Jews haven't learned how to say "no thank you." I
don't understand the fear, but it's definitely there.
LS: For many Christians, the Hebrew scriptural links are prioritized,
as you said, according to how well they mesh with the story of Jesus.
The interpretations are so ingrained. It's a big conundrum--how to
gently explain to Christians that the evidence linking the Old
Testament and New Testament isn't quite as self-evident as most
Christians believe.
The only point where I disagree is "gently." My preference is for
vigorous civilized debate in these issues.
LS: What about on a more personal level--when you're in someone's
living room?
Yeah, for sure. We live in a really special time when Jews and
Christians for the first time can discuss these questions in a spirit
of friendship and love, not in a spirit of being threatened or angry.
We should take that opportunity and not pretend it's still the Middle
Ages when a Jew could get killed for saying the wrong thing.
Rebecca Phillips and Laura Sheahen are Beliefnet editors.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 03:33:22 PM |
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BECAUSE HE DIDN'T MAKE IT,
like King Cyrus did! (See Isaoah 45). -- L.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 01:19:22 PM |
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In Jesus own words.
Luke 19:9 - And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this
house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
John 4:22 - Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for
salvation is of the Jews.
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| User: "•R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 12:04:19 PM |
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|
In article <1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "Steve
Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
• Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself "the Son of
man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was the key to
divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small quantity.
However, this rabbi taught that God/G-d/Allah/the biggest boss of all did
not want sacrifice. In the First Century, after the death of this raqbbi,
Judaism abandoned sacrifice and the still-present era of rabbinical
Judaism began. However, Christianity still teaches that sacrifice is
where it's at. So the question is why didn't Christians accept the words
of "Christ"?
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 01:13:46 PM |
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".R.L.Measures" <r_@somis.org> wrote in message
news:r_-2904051004190001@192.168.1.101...
In article <1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "Steve
Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
. Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself "the Son of
man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was the key to
divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small quantity.
However, this rabbi taught that God/G-d/Allah/the biggest boss of all did
not want sacrifice. In the First Century, after the death of this raqbbi,
Judaism abandoned sacrifice and the still-present era of rabbinical
Judaism began.
You are leaving out the incredibly important part: THE TEMPLE WAS DESTORYED.
This had LESS THAN NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS.
Susan
However, Christianity still teaches that sacrifice is
where it's at. So the question is why didn't Christians accept the words
of "Christ"?
--
? R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
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| User: "• R. L. Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 04:23:55 PM |
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In article <uPuce.44$r81.29@trnddc02>, "Susan Cohen"
<flavia18@verizon.net> wrote:
".R.L.Measures" <r_@somis.org> wrote in message
news:r_-2904051004190001@192.168.1.101...
In article <1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "Steve
Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
. Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself "the Son of
man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was the key to
divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small quantity.
However, this rabbi taught that God/G-d/Allah/the biggest boss of all did
not want sacrifice. In the First Century, after the death of this raqbbi,
Judaism abandoned sacrifice and the still-present era of rabbinical
Judaism began.
You are leaving out the incredibly important part: THE TEMPLE WAS DESTORYED.
This had LESS THAN NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS.
• Destroying one of many temples caused Judaism to abandon animal sacifice?
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 05:30:56 PM |
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In article <uPuce.44$r81.29@trnddc02>, "Susan Cohen"
You are leaving out the incredibly important part: THE TEMPLE WAS
DESTORYED.
This had LESS THAN NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS.
=B7 R. L. Measures wrote:
Destroying one of many temples
Not one of many temples: the only temple.
caused Judaism to abandon animal sacifice?
You got that much, sonny. Do try to learn a little about a subject you
are attempting to address, before you attempt to address it.=20
Deborah
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| User: "• R. L. Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 08:05:22 PM |
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In article <1114813856.087988.103460@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
dsharavi@hotmail.com wrote:
In article <uPuce.44$r81.29@trnddc02>, "Susan Cohen"
You are leaving out the incredibly important part: THE TEMPLE WAS
DESTORYED.
This had LESS THAN NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS.
=B7 R. L. Measures wrote:
Destroying one of many temples
Not one of many temples: the only temple.
caused Judaism to abandon animal sacifice?
You got that much, sonny. Do try to learn a little about a subject you
are attempting to address, before you attempt to address it.=20
^^^ I live 13 miles east of Temple Beth Torah in Ventura, Deborah.
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 01:55:38 PM |
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In article <1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Steve
Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
=B7R.L.Measures wrote:
=B7 Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself "the Son
of
man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was the key
to
divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small quantity.
Animal sacrifice was current throughout the ancient world. It was never
a "key" to any "divine forgiveness" in Judaism.
However, this rabbi taught that God/G-d/Allah/the biggest boss of all
did
not want sacrifice.
Where did he teach that?
In the First Century, after the death of this raqbbi,
Judaism abandoned sacrifice and the still-present era of rabbinical
Judaism began.
Sacrifice was not allowed outside the Temple in Jerusalem. After the
destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, all sacrifice ceased. It was
replaced by prayers, learning of law and history, and moral education,
or Rabbinical Judaism.
Deborah
However, Christianity still teaches that sacrifice is
where it's at. So the question is why didn't Christians accept the
words
of "Christ"?
=80 R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
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| User: "Binyamin Dissen" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
01 May 2005 04:11:36 AM |
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On 29 Apr 2005 11:55:38 -0700 wrote:
:>> In article <1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
:>"Steve
:>> Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
:>> >I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
:>> >Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
:>·R.L.Measures wrote:
:>>· Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself "the Son
:>of
:>>man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was the key
:>to
:>>divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small quantity.
:>Animal sacrifice was current throughout the ancient world. It was never
:>a "key" to any "divine forgiveness" in Judaism.
It was required to receive atonement for "unintentional" (Hebrew - Shogeg)
sins as well as for violations of the law regarding oaths.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.
I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 12:06:36 PM |
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=B7R.L.Measures wrote:
In article <1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Steve
Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
=B7 Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself "the
Son of
man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was the
key to
divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small
quantity.
However, this rabbi taught that God/G-d/Allah/the biggest boss of all
did
not want sacrifice.
He demonstrated this by sacrificing his son?
In the First Century, after the death of this raqbbi,
Judaism abandoned sacrifice and the still-present era of rabbinical
Judaism began. However, Christianity still teaches that sacrifice is
where it's at. So the question is why didn't Christians accept the
words
of "Christ"?
--
=80 R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 12:24:14 PM |
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wrote:
=B7R.L.Measures wrote:
In article <1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Steve
Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
=B7 Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself "the
Son of
man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was the
key to
divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small
quantity.
However, this rabbi taught that God/G-d/Allah/the biggest boss of
all
did
not want sacrifice.
He demonstrated this by sacrificing his son?
In the First Century, after the death of this raqbbi,
Judaism abandoned sacrifice and the still-present era of rabbinical
Judaism began. However, Christianity still teaches that sacrifice
is
where it's at. So the question is why didn't Christians accept
the
words
of "Christ"?
--
=80 R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
The concept that the Great One and Only God Yaweh would behave like the
pagan Greek and Roman gods and impregnate a woman must have been
blasphemous to Jews. That Yaweh would become one part of a Trinity
like the pagan three headed god Lugh would be incomprehensible to them.
Add in 2,000 years of persecution by Christians so why is any Christian
suprprised?
Also is it surprising that when Muhomet revived the concept of the One
undivided God that Islam spread so rapidly?
B C.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 01:15:08 PM |
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wrote:
PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com wrote:
=B7R.L.Measures wrote:
In article
<1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Steve
Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
=B7 Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself "the
Son of
man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was
the
key to
divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small
quantity.
However, this rabbi taught that God/G-d/Allah/the biggest boss of
all
did
not want sacrifice.
He demonstrated this by sacrificing his son?
In the First Century, after the death of this raqbbi,
Judaism abandoned sacrifice and the still-present era of
rabbinical
Judaism began. However, Christianity still teaches that
sacrifice
is
where it's at. So the question is why didn't Christians accept
the
words
of "Christ"?
--
=80 R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
The concept that the Great One and Only God Yaweh would behave like
the
pagan Greek and Roman gods and impregnate a woman must have been
blasphemous to Jews.
Yes, perhaps that's it. Jesus was the son of Zeus!
That Yaweh would become one part of a Trinity
like the pagan three headed god Lugh would be incomprehensible to
them.
Indeed!
Add in 2,000 years of persecution by Christians so why is any
Christian
suprprised?
Also is it surprising that when Muhomet revived the concept of the
One
undivided God that Islam spread so rapidly?
=20
B C.
Very good points!!
.
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| User: "• R. L. Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 04:22:09 PM |
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In article <1114794396.450524.298510@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com" <PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> wrote:
=B7R.L.Measures wrote:
In article <1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Steve
Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
=B7 Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself "the
Son of
man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was the
key to
divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small
quantity.
However, this rabbi taught that God/G-d/Allah/the biggest boss of all
did
not want sacrifice.
He demonstrated this by sacrificing his son?
^^^ I thought that he was offed for shing the light of the awful truth on
the religious authorities. Also, sacrifice is defined as a permanent
loss, not a couple of day inconvenience.
In the First Century, after the death of this rabbi,
Judaism abandoned sacrifice and the still-present era of rabbinical
Judaism began. However, Christianity still teaches that sacrifice is
where it's at. So the question is why didn't Christians accept the words
of "Christ"?
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
.
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| User: "gab" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
29 Apr 2005 08:56:31 PM |
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". R. L. Measures" <_r@somis.org> wrote in message
news:_r-2904051422090001@192.168.1.100...
In article <1114794396.450524.298510@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com" <PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> wrote:
=B7R.L.Measures wrote:
In article <1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Steve
Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
=B7 Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself "the
Son of
man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was the
key to
divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small
quantity.
However, this rabbi taught that God/G-d/Allah/the biggest boss of all
did
not want sacrifice.
He demonstrated this by sacrificing his son?
^^^ I thought that he was offed for shing the light of the awful truth on
the religious authorities. Also, sacrifice is defined as a permanent
loss, not a couple of day inconvenience.
In the First Century, after the death of this rabbi,
Judaism abandoned sacrifice and the still-present era of rabbinical
Judaism began. However, Christianity still teaches that sacrifice is
where it's at. So the question is why didn't Christians accept the
words
of "Christ"?
THIS WHOLE STORY IS SO FULL OF HOLES THAT IT APPEARS ALTOGHETHER NONSENSE.
THE ENTIRE POLITEISTIC CONCEPT OF CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH
MONOTHEISM. THAT IS THAT:christianity is another pagan cult.
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
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| User: "• R. L. Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 08:40:25 AM |
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In article <hBBce.391$sd7.8760@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>, "gab"
<gab@realitymail.> wrote:
". R. L. Measures" <_r@somis.org> wrote in message
news:_r-2904051422090001@192.168.1.100...
In article <1114794396.450524.298510@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com" <PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> wrote:
=B7R.L.Measures wrote:
In article <1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Steve
Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
=B7 Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself "the
Son of
man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was the
key to
divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small
quantity.
However, this rabbi taught that God/G-d/Allah/the biggest boss of all
did
not want sacrifice.
He demonstrated this by sacrificing his son?
^^^ I thought that he was offed for shining the light of the awful truth on
the religious authorities. Also, sacrifice is defined as a permanent
loss, not a couple of day inconvenience.
In the First Century, after the death of this rabbi,
Judaism abandoned sacrifice and the still-present era of rabbinical
Judaism began. However, Christianity still teaches that sacrifice is
where it's at. So the question is why didn't Christians accept the
words
of "Christ"?
THIS WHOLE STORY IS SO FULL OF HOLES THAT IT APPEARS ALTOGHETHER NONSENSE.
THE ENTIRE POLITEISTIC CONCEPT OF CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH
MONOTHEISM. THAT IS THAT:christianity is another pagan cult.
--
^^^ Indeed. Walk into any Romsn church, behold, and it's all too obvious
that paganesque ritual cannibalistic sacrifice is the foundation of modern
Christianity. Saul/Paul - for damn sure - managed to fool many.
cheers, G.
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 09:00:48 AM |
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=B7 R. L. Measures wrote:
In article <hBBce.391$sd7.8760@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>, "gab"
<gab@realitymail.> wrote:
". R. L. Measures" <_r@somis.org> wrote in message
news:_r-2904051422090001@192.168.1.100...
In article
<1114794396.450524.298510@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com" <PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com>
wrote:
=3DB7R.L.Measures wrote:
In article
<1114787641.644610.108870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Steve
Dufour" <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a good article, from http://www.beliefnet.com
Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus...
=3DB7 Before the lecture-tour of the rabbi who called himself
"the
Son of
man" -- a.k.a., "the Christ", Jews believed that sacrifice was
the
key to
divine forgiveness and they were burning animals in no small
quantity.
However, this rabbi taught that God/G-d/Allah/the biggest boss
of all
did
not want sacrifice.
He demonstrated this by sacrificing his son?
^^^ I thought that he was offed for shining the light of the
awful truth on
the religious authorities. Also, sacrifice is defined as a
permanent
loss, not a couple of day inconvenience.
In the First Century, after the death of this rabbi,
Judaism abandoned sacrifice and the still-present era of
rabbinical
Judaism began. However, Christianity still teaches that
sacrifice is
where it's at. So the question is why didn't Christians
accept the
words
of "Christ"?
THIS WHOLE STORY IS SO FULL OF HOLES THAT IT APPEARS ALTOGHETHER
NONSENSE.
THE ENTIRE POLITEISTIC CONCEPT OF CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH
MONOTHEISM. THAT IS THAT:christianity is another pagan cult.
--
^^^ Indeed. Walk into any Romsn church, behold, and it's all too
obvious
that paganesque ritual cannibalistic sacrifice is the foundation of
modern
Christianity. Saul/Paul - for damn sure - managed to fool many.
I don't blame Saul/Paul for not knowing any better. Yet I do blame
whoever came after him and distorted what he had to say on the subject.
That being the Roman Catholic Church who made a pagan religion out of
it.
bd4u
=20
cheers, G.
=20
--=20
Rich. 805.386.3734
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| User: "• R. L. Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 09:28:00 AM |
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In article <1114869648.584717.69210@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
=B7 R. L. Measures wrote:
In article <hBBce.391$sd7.8760@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>, "gab"
<gab@realitymail.> wrote:
...
THIS WHOLE STORY IS SO FULL OF HOLES THAT IT APPEARS ALTOGHETHER
NONSENSE.
THE ENTIRE POLITEISTIC CONCEPT OF CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH
MONOTHEISM. THAT IS THAT:christianity is another pagan cult.
--
^^^ Indeed. Walk into any Romsn church, behold, and it's all too
obvious
that paganesque ritual cannibalistic sacrifice is the foundation of
modern
Christianity. Saul/Paul - for damn sure - managed to fool many.
I don't blame Saul/Paul for not knowing any better. Yet I do blame
whoever came after him and distorted what he had to say on the subject.
That being the Roman Catholic Church who made a pagan religion out of it.
^^^ SAUL/PAUL WAS UNDOUBTEDLY PRO-SACRIFICE.
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 09:32:36 AM |
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=B7 R. L. Measures wrote:
In article <1114869648.584717.69210@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
=3DB7 R. L. Measures wrote:
In article <hBBce.391$sd7.8760@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>, "gab"
<gab@realitymail.> wrote:
...
THIS WHOLE STORY IS SO FULL OF HOLES THAT IT APPEARS
ALTOGHETHER
NONSENSE.
THE ENTIRE POLITEISTIC CONCEPT OF CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS
JEWISH
MONOTHEISM. THAT IS THAT:christianity is another pagan cult.
--
^^^ Indeed. Walk into any Romsn church, behold, and it's all
too
obvious
that paganesque ritual cannibalistic sacrifice is the foundation
of
modern
Christianity. Saul/Paul - for damn sure - managed to fool many.
I don't blame Saul/Paul for not knowing any better. Yet I do blame
whoever came after him and distorted what he had to say on the
subject.
That being the Roman Catholic Church who made a pagan religion out
of it.
^^^ SAUL/PAUL WAS UNDOUBTEDLY PRO-SACRIFICE.
Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
I don't fault him, but neither do i give him much credit.
BTW: Neither did Thomas Jefferson who cut and pasted his own
bible while cutting Saul/Paul clear on out of it!
=20
--=20
Rich. 805.386.3734
bd4u
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| User: "Steve Dufour" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 09:47:47 AM |
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Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
I don't fault him, but neither do i give him much credit.
BTW: Neither did Thomas Jefferson who cut and pasted his own
bible while cutting Saul/Paul clear on out of it!
Be careful Bruce. You might offend the Presbyterians.
.
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| User: "Antagonist for God" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 10:18:27 AM |
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On 30 Apr 2005 07:47:47 -0700, "Steve Dufour"
<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
He knew what the Lord Jesus said.
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 02:08:22 PM |
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Antagonist for God <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in
news:dd877151fa1bn3imb8l7hsrqf141odu4lu@4ax.com:
On 30 Apr 2005 07:47:47 -0700, "Steve Dufour"
<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
He knew what the Lord Jesus said.
Nonsense. He never met the dood.
--
DWA should be a felony.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 11:17:55 AM |
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Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 07:47:47 -0700, "Steve Dufour"
<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
He knew what the Lord Jesus said.
No he didn't; he never met the man. The only information he had was
second hand at best.
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Antagonist for God" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 11:29:50 AM |
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On 30 Apr 2005 09:17:55 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 07:47:47 -0700, "Steve Dufour"
<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
He knew what the Lord Jesus said.
No he didn't; he never met the man.
According to you. He met Jesus on the road to
Damascus.
The only information he had was second hand at best.
Galatians 1:11-12
11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which
was preached of me is not after man.
12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I
taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 02:09:31 PM |
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Antagonist for God <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in
news:ahc771dcdjt22vp3l4j9csajbb2g49ikoc@4ax.com:
On 30 Apr 2005 09:17:55 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 07:47:47 -0700, "Steve Dufour"
<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
He knew what the Lord Jesus said.
No he didn't; he never met the man.
According to you. He met Jesus on the road to
Damascus.
Who besides Saul can confirm this?
--
DWA should be a felony.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 06:18:14 PM |
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Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 09:17:55 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 07:47:47 -0700, "Steve Dufour"
<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
He knew what the Lord Jesus said.
No he didn't; he never met the man.
According to you. He met Jesus on the road to
Damascus.
The only information he had was second hand at best.
Galatians 1:11-12
11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which
was preached of me is not after man.
12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I
taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul only said what he said to fend off people wanting him put to
death for the persecution of Christians. He was an extremely
guilt-ridden man who decided that if you can't beat them, be the best
one of them. If they start looking up to you, they'll forget you were
responsible for seeing some of them put to death. It worked and Paul
became the used-car- salesman for Christ. He'd tell anyone just what
they wanted to hear, whether it was true or not, just accept Jesus for
Paul's sake, and everything will be alright. Trouble was, he forgot
about Rome.
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Antagonist for God" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 06:20:00 PM |
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On 30 Apr 2005 16:18:14 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 09:17:55 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 07:47:47 -0700, "Steve Dufour"
<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
He knew what the Lord Jesus said.
No he didn't; he never met the man.
According to you. He met Jesus on the road to
Damascus.
The only information he had was second hand at best.
Galatians 1:11-12
11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which
was preached of me is not after man.
12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I
taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul only said what he said to fend off people wanting him put to
death for the persecution of Christians.
Right, sure. because you said so. <chuckle>
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 06:31:11 PM |
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Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 16:18:14 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 09:17:55 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 07:47:47 -0700, "Steve Dufour"
<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his
letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
He knew what the Lord Jesus said.
No he didn't; he never met the man.
According to you. He met Jesus on the road to
Damascus.
The only information he had was second hand at best.
Galatians 1:11-12
11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which
was preached of me is not after man.
12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I
taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul only said what he said to fend off people wanting him put
to
death for the persecution of Christians.
Right, sure. because you said so. <chuckle>
No, not because I said so; but, rather, because that's the way it
was.
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Antagonist for God" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 06:55:13 PM |
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On 30 Apr 2005 16:31:11 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 16:18:14 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 09:17:55 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 07:47:47 -0700, "Steve Dufour"
<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his
letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
He knew what the Lord Jesus said.
No he didn't; he never met the man.
According to you. He met Jesus on the road to
Damascus.
The only information he had was second hand at best.
Galatians 1:11-12
11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which
was preached of me is not after man.
12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I
taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul only said what he said to fend off people
wanting him put to death for the persecution
of Christians.
Right, sure. because you said so. <chuckle>
No, not because I said so; but, rather,
because that's the way it was.
Prove it. Prove that's why he said it.
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah |
30 Apr 2005 07:13:56 PM |
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Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 16:31:11 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 16:18:14 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 09:17:55 -0700,
"PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com"
<PatrickDHarrington@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote:
On 30 Apr 2005 07:47:47 -0700, "Steve Dufour"
<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Saul/Paul was confused about many things. Most of his
letters
read like an epitaph while he was awaiting his own death.
He knew what the Lord Jesus said.
No he didn't; he never met the man.
According to you. He met Jesus on the road to
Damascus.
The only information he had was second hand at best.
Galatians 1:11-12
11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which
was preached of me is not after man.
12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I
taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul only said what he said to fend off people
wanting him put to death for the persecution
of Christians.
Right, sure. because you said so. <chuckle>
No, not because I said so; but, rather,
because that's the way it was.
Prove it. Prove that's why he said it.
Prove he met a dead god-man on the road to Damascus. Since there's
no proof other than his word--and one witness is as good as no
witness--I'm afraid your left with human reasons. He even impugns his
own character: Romans 3:7 "For if the truth of God hath more abounded
through my lie unto His glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"
He openly acknowledges that he lies about Jesus and God supposedly
for the greater glory of God and thinks that, because his lie glorifies
God, he should not be considered a sinner.
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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