Religions > Bible > Why The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"www.pulpitfire.org" |
| Date: |
17 Jun 2006 10:01:49 PM |
| Object: |
Why The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation |
For the following reasons, I believe the church will not go through the
Tribulation described in Revelation 4-19:
1) Because the Tribulation is the time of "Jacob's trouble", not the
churches' (Jeremiah 30:7).
The prophecies of Daniel 9, and the 70th week (which is the seven year
Tribulation), are addressed primarily to the nation Israel and describe
the events leading to her restoration to the city and sanctuary. The
twofold purpose of the Tribulation, is to prepare Israel, spiritually,
for the Messiah she rejected the first time (Jeremiah 30-33), and to
rain judgment on the "inhabitants of the earth" (Rev. 3"10; 8:13). The
only places in the gospel that refer to how God's people should prepare
for Tribulation life, are where He is addressing Jews--primarily in
Matthew, and a little in Luke. The gospel of John--mainly addressing
church age saints-- warns only of general persecution that will come
from men opposed to the truth, and not of God's wrath being poured out
on his bride the church. Read Revelation 12, to see who the players are
during the Tribulation. The woman who gave birth to the male child, is
clearly the nation Israel, not the church.
2) Because the rapture (catching up) is not part of the Day of the Lord.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul has to educate them about the rapture of
the church, and our being caught up together with Him in the air. By
sharp contrast ("But") to the events of this rapture, he tells them they
already knew full well about the events of the "day of the Lord"--the
time when Tribulation judgment would fall on the inhabitants
of the earth.
Now how could they know full well about the Tribulation, but nothing
about the catching up (rapture) of the church? It seems the only way is
if the rapture of the church is not part of the events of the
Tribulation, in Scripture. If that's the case, then the rapture must
occur before the events of the Day of the Lord.
3) Because we're supposed to comfort one another with the hope of the
rapture (1 Thess. 4:18).
It would be hard to imagine "these words" as being a "comfort", if the
Thessalonians thought they'd have to endure the Tribulation before they
would get raptured.
4) Because we are not children of darkness (1 Thess. 5:5).
Regarding those events of the day of the Lord's judgment, Paul said
church age believers are not children of darkness, that the day of the
Lord should overtake them like a thief. It is the children of darkness,
and not children of light, who are overtaken, like a thief, by the day
of the Lord's judgment (5:4-5). It is when "they" (not "you") say
"peace and safety", that destruction shall come upon "them".
You might say then, that they will simply not be overtaken by the day
the way a thief is, but read on, where the passage shows God has not
appointed us to this Tribulation wrath at all.
5) Because God has not appointed us to wrath (1 Thess. 5:8-10).
The Tribulation is an outpouring of God's wrath (Rev. 6:16-17; 11:18;
14:19; 15:1; 16:1, 19), and a time of His judgment (Rev. 6:10; 11:10;
13:8, 12, 14;14:7; 15:4; 16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2) and punishment (Isa.
24:21-22). In contrast to the drunken sleepers who will be overtaken
like a thief by the day of the Lord's judgment (which includes the
Tribulation, and not just eternal damnation), we, who are sober, are
supposed to put on for a helmet, the "hope of salvation" (1 Thess.
5:8-10). Why? Because God has "NOT [emphasis mine] appointed us to
wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for
us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."
This knowledge is supposed to be a comfort, regarding not only those who
sleep in Christ, but also the day
of the Lord's judgment. Whether we are alive or dead, we will be with
the Lord, and not experiencing the wrath of God that falls on the
drunken sleepers who are children of darkness (cf. Ephesians 5:8,13,14).
6) Because the rapture assures us we have not entered the Tribulation (2
Thess. 2)
The Thessalonians were troubled by the thought that maybe they had
already entered the day of Tribulation. Paul besought them by the hope
of the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto
Him", that they had not already entered the day of Christ's judgment (2
Thess 2:1-2). This prospect of the coming of the Lord, and
gathering of the saints to be with Him, would not be a proof for them,
that they had not entered the Tribulation, if they had to endure the
entire, or even part of the Tribulation, before they were gathered to
the Lord. They could not have entered the time of judgment (and neither
could we), because the gathering of church age saints (whether
they sleep or are alive) to the Lord will occur first, and this is the
hope by which Paul besought them.
7) Because God promised to deliver the church from the hour of
Tribulation (Revelation 3:10)
In Revelation 3:10, God promises to deliver the church from the very
hour in which the testing occurs for "them" "that dwell upon the earth".
How can they be delivered from testing that falls on earth dwellers,
and from the very hour in which the testing occurs, if they still dwell
on earth, or in a realm where earth time applies? Apparently, the
church will not dwell on earth during the hour the testing occurs. This
truth applies to whomever "has an ear" in the
"churches" (v13).
8) Because John was called up to heaven before the "things which shall
be hereafter" (Rev 4:1)
In Revelation 1:19, John was told to write the "things which thou hast
seen " (vision of the resurrected Christ), the "things which are"
(letters to the "churches"), and the "things which shall be hereafter"
(Tribulation wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth). The letters to
the churches conclude the "the things which are". But before God shows
him the "things which shall be hereafter", He calls him up into heaven,
from earth (4:1). It is not until he is in heaven
that he sees the judgments which shall be "hereafter", falling on "them
who dwell on the earth". This is in keeping with the promise God just
made in Revelation 3:10, that the church will not go through the hour of
testing that falls on "them that dwell upon the earth", and that the
church (addressed in the "things which are"), is not part of the
"things which shall be hereafter".
9) Because Tribulation saints are not the "church".
Revelation 1-3 addresses believers as the "church" something like 19
times before Revelation 4 refers to the judgments which shall be
"hereafter" falling on "the inhabitants of the earth". Then, during the
time of the Tribulation, instantly believers are referred to only by
terms like "saints", and there is not one reference to the "church".
Israel, and the 144,000 chosen from the twelve tribes are the subjects
of God's sealing during that time, and not the church (cf. Revelation 12).
Now, is it just a coincidence Revelation refers to church age believers,
during the "things which are", as the "church" 19 times, and then
instantly stops calling believers the "church" once John is raptured to
heaven and the "things which shall be hereafter" begin? It seems highly
unlikely to me.
10) Because the church returns with Christ to earth, at the end of the
Tribulation (Rev. 19).
2 Corinthians 11:2 says the church is being presented as a chaste virgin
to Christ. Ephesians 5:27-32 says the relationship between husband and
wife is a picture of the union of Christ and the church. The Lord is
purifying the church for himself, so He may present it to himself
without spot or wrinkle. Then, in Revelation 19, we have the
bride, coming with Christ, from heaven, dressed in fine white garments,
which is the righteousness of the saints. This seems to show that the
church is not on earth during the Tribulation, but is with Christ, in
heaven. This also seems consistent with the fact that the twenty four
elders are introduced right after John has been raptured to heaven at
the end of the "things which are" (church age), and before he sees the
things "which shall be hereafter".
11) Because the return of Christ for the church could happen at any time
(John 14:2-3; Acts 1:11; 1 Cor. 15:51-52; Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess.
1:10; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).
Matthew, and other passages primarily addressed to Jews, warns Israel to
prepare for the Tribulation. John, and passages addressed primarily to
the church, however, make no mention of preparing for the Tribulation
that God will pour on earth, but only for the general tribulation and
persecution that will come from men opposed to the truth. There, we
find such comforts as in John 14:2-3, where Christ tells us not to let
our hearts be troubled, since He is going to prepare a place for us, and
will come again to take us to be with Him. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 tells
us to wait for the Son from heaven, which "delivered us from the wrath
to come". Every indication for the church, seems to be to expect that
the Lord could arrive at any moment to translate us into His presence
and glory (cf. Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).
By contrast, we know from the prophecies in Daniel, that once the 70th
week of the Tribulation begins, it will last almost exactly seven years.
Once the man of sin is revealed (2 Thess. 2), you can pretty much tell
down to the day when Christ will return to earth, and His return will
therefor no longer be possible at any moment.
12) Because saved but unglorified people must populate the millennial
kingdom (Rev. 20).
We know that when the resurrection and rapture occurs, it will
immediately transform all church age believer's bodies to their
glorified state (1 Cor. 15; 1 Thess. 4). We also know that in the
glorified state, believers do not die or reproduce (Matt. 22:30). Only
believers enter the millennial kingdom of Christ (Matt. 25:32-46), yet
there is reproduction, difference of age, death, and rebellion during
that time (Isa. 65:20; Zech. 8:5; Rev. 20:12). This means that saved,
but unglorified people must enter the millennial kingdom of Christ. If
the rapture occurs any time after the Tribulation has begun up until
Christ returns and establishes His 1,000 year reign on earth (Rev. 20),
the Tribulation saints who enter it would possess glorified bodies
incapable of marriage, reproduction, death, or rebellion. Since all
these occur during the millennium that follows the Tribulation, the
saints who enter it from the Tribulation cannot be the church, which
looks forward to the rapture and translation (1 Thess. 4).
--
=============================================
There is a blessed hope. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says: "And
to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the
dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to
come. The Tribulation is part of the wrath to come, and the
church *will* be delivered from it. Nowhere in the epistles is
the church told to wait or prepare for Tribulation wrath, but
for the Son from heaven." www.pulpitfire.org
=============================================
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: Why The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation |
18 Jun 2006 11:52:44 AM |
|
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"www.pulpitfire.org" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4494b4d1$0$9922$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
For the following reasons, I believe the church will not go through the
Tribulation described in Revelation 4-19:
Moron: Revelation 4-19 isn't about "the tribulation."
The seals are about the Beginning of Sorrows, when the church is accused,
persecuted, discriminated against, and executed.
The trumpets are about the rise and rule of the unholy trinity.
Then you get to "the great tribulation," when God pours out His wrath on the
world for terrorizing His beloved.
It's the difference between...
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have
peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have
overcome the world.
And
Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
1) Because the Tribulation is the time of "Jacob's trouble", not the
churches' (Jeremiah 30:7).
Typical dispensationalist *****: Their trouble is our trouble and vice
versa as God establishes the conjunction between the Israel that was and the
Israel that is a new Israel born of both.
The prophecies of Daniel 9, and the 70th week (which is the seven year
Tribulation), are addressed primarily to the nation Israel and describe
the events leading to her restoration to the city and sanctuary.
1) There is no "70th week." There isn't a single prophecy in the entire
Bible that speaks of prophetic events in terms of seven years--they all say
seventy.
2) Revelation is the Christians counterpart to Daniel.
Daniel lays out the Old Testament Israel's problems.
Revelation lays out the New Testament Israel's problems.
This is just more of your typical dispensationalist crap: Take the book of
warning to the Christians and try to turn it into a book about the
Israelites.
3) The temple has to be in place BEFORE the prophecies can be completed, and
that happens in the first sixty-two years of the prophecy when Daniel
discusses the rebuilding of the temple mount--that part of the prophecy you
false prophets keep cutting off.
The twofold purpose of the Tribulation, is to prepare Israel, spiritually,
for the Messiah she rejected the first time (Jeremiah 30-33),
In the end, "Israel" is not "the Jews."
In fact, the distinction between "Israel" and "the Gentiles" disappeared a
long time ago.
and to rain judgment on the "inhabitants of the earth" (Rev. 3"10; 8:13).
Yes--for persecuting the believers and hounding them to the brink of
extinction until all that is left is an Israelite-Christian remnant.
The only places in the gospel that refer to how God's people should
prepare for Tribulation life, are where He is addressing Jews--primarily
in Matthew, and a little in Luke.
More dispensationalist *****.
Jesus and the New Testament prophets ALWAYS taught the believers, regardless
of where they came from, that they must by much tribulation enter into the
kingdom of God.
At no time did they teach anything else, except in regards to the remnant,
NOT the church-at-large.
The gospel of John--mainly addressing church age saints-- warns only of
general persecution that will come from men opposed to the truth, and not
of God's wrath being poured out on his bride the church.
More dispensationalist bullsht.
1) John (nor any prophet anywhere in the Bible) never made any such
distinction as "church-age saints:" That's another dis-peon-sationalist
concoction.
In fact, Revelation is written to those who are 1) brothers, 2) companions
in tribulation, and 3) in the royal authority and patience of Jesus Christ.
If one is not with John on these points, he is not part of Christ's church.
(hint, hint)
Read Revelation 12, to see who the players are during the Tribulation.
The woman who gave birth to the male child, is clearly the nation Israel,
not the church.
LOL
The entire end-of-the-age is about the birth process (birth pangs) of the
"woman in travail" as she brings forth a new thing--the "son" of Israel.
The "Woman" is the church, which gives birth to the "man-child" of both
faiths, the remnant.
2) Because the rapture (catching up) is not part of the Day of the Lord.
LOL
There is no "rapture" of the church-at-large.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul has to educate them about the rapture of
the church, and our being caught up together with Him in the air.
LOL
Both books of Thessalonians was written to encourage the church to endure
hardships and afflictions, even to the very coming of Jesus Christ, and to
dispel myths such as you teach...
In fact, PAUL, the man you keep quoting out of context, SPECIFICALLY said
the believers would be here to the very moment of Christ's return, in the
very same books you mangle:
2 Th 1:3-8
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet,
because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of
you all toward each other aboundetly, so that we ourselves glory in you in
the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and
tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous
judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for
which ye also suffer, seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense
tribulation to them that trouble you.
"AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE
REVEALED FROM HEAVEN with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking
vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our
Lord Jesus Christ..."
By sharp contrast ("But") to the events of this rapture, he tells them
they already knew full well about the events of the "day of the Lord"--the
time when Tribulation judgment would fall on the inhabitants
of the earth.
Exactly backwards from the truth.
The dead in Christ are raised, the remnant (NOT the church-at-large) is
gathered, just like Jesus said, i.e....
Mr 13:20-26 [ed.]
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be
saved: BUT FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE, WHOM HE HATH CHOSEN, he hath shortened the
days...And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together HIS
ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the
uttermost part of heaven.
"THEY" are not "YOU."
"THEY" are the elect, the sealed, the chosen, i.e. those 144,000
Israelite-Christians you keep ignoring.
Now how could they know full well about the Tribulation, but nothing about
the catching up (rapture) of the church?
Because it is only a minor blurb in Jesus' teachings, and it is only about
the last few left standing after the world comes after the believers.
It seems the only way is if the rapture of the church is not part of the
events of the Tribulation, in Scripture. If that's the case, then the
rapture must occur before the events of the Day of the Lord.
LOL
No one was talking about "you" in the first place.
3) Because we're supposed to comfort one another with the hope of the
rapture (1 Thess. 4:18).
Liar.
What's the opening theme of the passage?
13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, CONCERNING THEM
WHICH ARE ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Paul was comforting the Thessalonians concerning death and the resurrection
of the dead, not giving them false hope in a rapture that had nothing to do
with them in the first place.
It would be hard to imagine "these words" as being a "comfort", if the
Thessalonians thought they'd have to endure the Tribulation before they
would get raptured.
Moron: Paul wasn't preaching your rapture myth to them in the first
place--he was preaching the resurrection of the dead.
4) Because we are not children of darkness (1 Thess. 5:5).
YOU are.
[snip the rest of the pointless diatribe]
5) Because God has not appointed us to wrath (1 Thess. 5:8-10).
God's "wrath" doesn't start until "the seven vials of the wrath of God" in
the last chronological section of Revelation, AFTER the seals (the Beginning
of Sorrows) and the trumpets (the rise and rule of the unholy ones).
[snip the garbage]
6) Because the rapture assures us we have not entered the Tribulation (2
Thess. 2)
1) The gathering of the elect doesn't come until the Lord's return is
immanent.
2) It wouldn't matter anyway, since it (the gathering of the elect) comes
AFTER the Beginning of Sorrows and the rise of the adversaries.
The Thessalonians were troubled by the thought that maybe they had already
entered the day of Tribulation.
Liar.
The Thessalonians were troubled by the thought that the RESURRECTION had
already past.
[snip the garbage]
7) Because God promised to deliver the church from the hour of Tribulation
(Revelation 3:10)
Liar.
Jesus promised the PHILADELPHIANS, a specific subsection of the church which
represents the REMNANT, NOT the church-at-large, that he would keep them
from the hour of temptation.
(You still haven't acknowledged the fact that the letter to Philadelphia is
the only one that opens with Old Testament credentials for Jesus instead of
the set that John establishes in the first chapter, which every other letter
opens with.)
8) Because John was called up to heaven before the "things which shall be
hereafter" (Rev 4:1)
One of the greatest dispensationalist lies. John was caught up to see
heaven, not "the church."
9) Because Tribulation saints are not the "church".
There is no such designation "tribulation saints" anywhere in the Bible--it
is a dispensationalist fabrication to make the warnings to us about somebody
else.
Revelation 1-3 addresses believers as the "church" something like 19 times
before Revelation 4 refers to the judgments which shall be "hereafter"
falling on "the inhabitants of the earth".
Another lie.
Revelation 4 is not about the judgments--they don't start until the seven
vials of the wrath of God.
Revelation 4 is about the persecutions of the believers, resulting in their
gathering in the altar of God, a situation that continues until there is
nothing but a remnant left.
[snip the garbage]
10) Because the church returns with Christ to earth, at the end of the
Tribulation (Rev. 19).
[snip]
Yes--after the whole process is concluded.
11) Because the return of Christ for the church could happen at any time
(John 14:2-3; Acts 1:11; 1 Cor. 15:51-52; Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess.
1:10; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).
Matthew, and other passages primarily addressed to Jews, warns Israel to
prepare for the Tribulation.
Another dispensationalist lie: These all warn the BELIEVERS that Christ
could return at any time, so they need to lift up their heads and have
confidence IN tribulation.
John, and passages addressed primarily to the church, however, make no
mention of preparing for the Tribulation that God will pour on earth,
Liar:
Re 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil
shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have
tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a
crown of life.
but only for the general tribulation and persecution that will come from
men opposed to the truth. There, we find such comforts as in John 14:2-3,
where Christ tells us not to let our hearts be troubled, since He is going
to prepare a place for us, and will come again to take us to be with Him.
Yes--at the resurrection of the dead and the gathering of the remnant.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 tells us to wait for the Son from heaven, which
"delivered us from the wrath to come".
Which, again, doesn't start until the part labeled "the wrath of God."
Every indication for the church, seems to be to expect that the Lord could
arrive at any moment to translate us into His presence and glory (cf.
Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).
LOL
"seems to be"
You have no idea what "seems to be."
By contrast, we know from the prophecies in Daniel, that once the 70th
week of the Tribulation begins,
LOL
Daniel never taught a "70th week" apart from the other 69.
it will last almost exactly seven years.
There is not one single prophecy in the Old Testament that speaks of
prophetic events occurring ONLY in seven years.
Once the man of sin is revealed (2 Thess. 2), you can pretty much tell
down to the day when Christ will return to earth, and His return will
therefor no longer be possible at any moment.
Nope.
Jesus had 1335 days allotted to Him in His half of the last seven years, but
"those days have been shortened."
12) Because saved but unglorified people must populate the millennial
kingdom (Rev. 20).
Nope.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he
not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Jesus and His entourage won't be going after the confused--just the
opponents.
[snip the rest of usual erroneous Satanically inspired and driven garbage
that diverts people from the goal]
Ike
--
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
The Tree of Life (from "The Character Map")
The Beloved
Faith Hope
Righteousness Judgment Compassion
Courage Integrity Diligence Grace
Discipline of Thought Service Desire Decision and Belief
Glory Honor Power Wisdom Riches Blessing Strength w/Thanksgiving
He Who Loves
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
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| User: "www.pulpitfire.org" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation |
18 Jun 2006 12:47:30 PM |
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H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
"www.pulpitfire.org" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4494b4d1$0$9922$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
For the following reasons, I believe the church will not go through the
Tribulation described in Revelation 4-19:
Moron: Revelation 4-19 isn't about "the tribulation."
The seals are about the Beginning of Sorrows, when the church is accused,
persecuted, discriminated against, and executed.
The trumpets are about the rise and rule of the unholy trinity.
Then you get to "the great tribulation," when God pours out His wrath on the
world for terrorizing His beloved.
It's the difference between...
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have
peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have
overcome the world.
And
Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
1) Because the Tribulation is the time of "Jacob's trouble", not the
churches' (Jeremiah 30:7).
Typical dispensationalist *****: Their trouble is our trouble and vice
versa as God establishes the conjunction between the Israel that was and the
Israel that is a new Israel born of both.
The prophecies of Daniel 9, and the 70th week (which is the seven year
Tribulation), are addressed primarily to the nation Israel and describe
the events leading to her restoration to the city and sanctuary.
1) There is no "70th week." There isn't a single prophecy in the entire
Bible that speaks of prophetic events in terms of seven years--they all say
seventy.
2) Revelation is the Christians counterpart to Daniel.
Daniel lays out the Old Testament Israel's problems.
Revelation lays out the New Testament Israel's problems.
This is just more of your typical dispensationalist crap: Take the book of
warning to the Christians and try to turn it into a book about the
Israelites.
3) The temple has to be in place BEFORE the prophecies can be completed, and
that happens in the first sixty-two years of the prophecy when Daniel
discusses the rebuilding of the temple mount--that part of the prophecy you
false prophets keep cutting off.
The twofold purpose of the Tribulation, is to prepare Israel, spiritually,
for the Messiah she rejected the first time (Jeremiah 30-33),
In the end, "Israel" is not "the Jews."
In fact, the distinction between "Israel" and "the Gentiles" disappeared a
long time ago.
and to rain judgment on the "inhabitants of the earth" (Rev. 3"10; 8:13).
Yes--for persecuting the believers and hounding them to the brink of
extinction until all that is left is an Israelite-Christian remnant.
The only places in the gospel that refer to how God's people should
prepare for Tribulation life, are where He is addressing Jews--primarily
in Matthew, and a little in Luke.
More dispensationalist *****.
Jesus and the New Testament prophets ALWAYS taught the believers, regardless
of where they came from, that they must by much tribulation enter into the
kingdom of God.
At no time did they teach anything else, except in regards to the remnant,
NOT the church-at-large.
The gospel of John--mainly addressing church age saints-- warns only of
general persecution that will come from men opposed to the truth, and not
of God's wrath being poured out on his bride the church.
More dispensationalist bullsht.
1) John (nor any prophet anywhere in the Bible) never made any such
distinction as "church-age saints:" That's another dis-peon-sationalist
concoction.
In fact, Revelation is written to those who are 1) brothers, 2) companions
in tribulation, and 3) in the royal authority and patience of Jesus Christ.
If one is not with John on these points, he is not part of Christ's church.
(hint, hint)
Read Revelation 12, to see who the players are during the Tribulation.
The woman who gave birth to the male child, is clearly the nation Israel,
not the church.
LOL
The entire end-of-the-age is about the birth process (birth pangs) of the
"woman in travail" as she brings forth a new thing--the "son" of Israel.
The "Woman" is the church, which gives birth to the "man-child" of both
faiths, the remnant.
2) Because the rapture (catching up) is not part of the Day of the Lord.
LOL
There is no "rapture" of the church-at-large.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul has to educate them about the rapture of
the church, and our being caught up together with Him in the air.
LOL
Both books of Thessalonians was written to encourage the church to endure
hardships and afflictions, even to the very coming of Jesus Christ, and to
dispel myths such as you teach...
In fact, PAUL, the man you keep quoting out of context, SPECIFICALLY said
the believers would be here to the very moment of Christ's return, in the
very same books you mangle:
2 Th 1:3-8
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet,
because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of
you all toward each other aboundetly, so that we ourselves glory in you in
the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and
tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous
judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for
which ye also suffer, seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense
tribulation to them that trouble you.
"AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE
REVEALED FROM HEAVEN with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking
vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our
Lord Jesus Christ..."
By sharp contrast ("But") to the events of this rapture, he tells them
they already knew full well about the events of the "day of the Lord"--the
time when Tribulation judgment would fall on the inhabitants
of the earth.
Exactly backwards from the truth.
The dead in Christ are raised, the remnant (NOT the church-at-large) is
gathered, just like Jesus said, i.e....
Mr 13:20-26 [ed.]
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be
saved: BUT FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE, WHOM HE HATH CHOSEN, he hath shortened the
days...And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together HIS
ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the
uttermost part of heaven.
"THEY" are not "YOU."
"THEY" are the elect, the sealed, the chosen, i.e. those 144,000
Israelite-Christians you keep ignoring.
Now how could they know full well about the Tribulation, but nothing about
the catching up (rapture) of the church?
Because it is only a minor blurb in Jesus' teachings, and it is only about
the last few left standing after the world comes after the believers.
It seems the only way is if the rapture of the church is not part of the
events of the Tribulation, in Scripture. If that's the case, then the
rapture must occur before the events of the Day of the Lord.
LOL
No one was talking about "you" in the first place.
3) Because we're supposed to comfort one another with the hope of the
rapture (1 Thess. 4:18).
Liar.
What's the opening theme of the passage?
13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, CONCERNING THEM
WHICH ARE ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Paul was comforting the Thessalonians concerning death and the resurrection
of the dead, not giving them false hope in a rapture that had nothing to do
with them in the first place.
It would be hard to imagine "these words" as being a "comfort", if the
Thessalonians thought they'd have to endure the Tribulation before they
would get raptured.
Moron: Paul wasn't preaching your rapture myth to them in the first
place--he was preaching the resurrection of the dead.
4) Because we are not children of darkness (1 Thess. 5:5).
YOU are.
[snip the rest of the pointless diatribe]
5) Because God has not appointed us to wrath (1 Thess. 5:8-10).
God's "wrath" doesn't start until "the seven vials of the wrath of God" in
the last chronological section of Revelation, AFTER the seals (the Beginning
of Sorrows) and the trumpets (the rise and rule of the unholy ones).
[snip the garbage]
6) Because the rapture assures us we have not entered the Tribulation (2
Thess. 2)
1) The gathering of the elect doesn't come until the Lord's return is
immanent.
2) It wouldn't matter anyway, since it (the gathering of the elect) comes
AFTER the Beginning of Sorrows and the rise of the adversaries.
The Thessalonians were troubled by the thought that maybe they had already
entered the day of Tribulation.
Liar.
The Thessalonians were troubled by the thought that the RESURRECTION had
already past.
[snip the garbage]
7) Because God promised to deliver the church from the hour of Tribulation
(Revelation 3:10)
Liar.
Jesus promised the PHILADELPHIANS, a specific subsection of the church which
represents the REMNANT, NOT the church-at-large, that he would keep them
from the hour of temptation.
(You still haven't acknowledged the fact that the letter to Philadelphia is
the only one that opens with Old Testament credentials for Jesus instead of
the set that John establishes in the first chapter, which every other letter
opens with.)
8) Because John was called up to heaven before the "things which shall be
hereafter" (Rev 4:1)
One of the greatest dispensationalist lies. John was caught up to see
heaven, not "the church."
9) Because Tribulation saints are not the "church".
There is no such designation "tribulation saints" anywhere in the Bible--it
is a dispensationalist fabrication to make the warnings to us about somebody
else.
Revelation 1-3 addresses believers as the "church" something like 19 times
before Revelation 4 refers to the judgments which shall be "hereafter"
falling on "the inhabitants of the earth".
Another lie.
Revelation 4 is not about the judgments--they don't start until the seven
vials of the wrath of God.
Revelation 4 is about the persecutions of the believers, resulting in their
gathering in the altar of God, a situation that continues until there is
nothing but a remnant left.
[snip the garbage]
10) Because the church returns with Christ to earth, at the end of the
Tribulation (Rev. 19).
[snip]
Yes--after the whole process is concluded.
11) Because the return of Christ for the church could happen at any time
(John 14:2-3; Acts 1:11; 1 Cor. 15:51-52; Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess.
1:10; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).
Matthew, and other passages primarily addressed to Jews, warns Israel to
prepare for the Tribulation.
Another dispensationalist lie: These all warn the BELIEVERS that Christ
could return at any time, so they need to lift up their heads and have
confidence IN tribulation.
John, and passages addressed primarily to the church, however, make no
mention of preparing for the Tribulation that God will pour on earth,
Liar:
Re 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil
shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have
tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a
crown of life.
but only for the general tribulation and persecution that will come from
men opposed to the truth. There, we find such comforts as in John 14:2-3,
where Christ tells us not to let our hearts be troubled, since He is going
to prepare a place for us, and will come again to take us to be with Him.
Yes--at the resurrection of the dead and the gathering of the remnant.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 tells us to wait for the Son from heaven, which
"delivered us from the wrath to come".
Which, again, doesn't start until the part labeled "the wrath of God."
Every indication for the church, seems to be to expect that the Lord could
arrive at any moment to translate us into His presence and glory (cf.
Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).
LOL
"seems to be"
You have no idea what "seems to be."
By contrast, we know from the prophecies in Daniel, that once the 70th
week of the Tribulation begins,
LOL
Daniel never taught a "70th week" apart from the other 69.
it will last almost exactly seven years.
There is not one single prophecy in the Old Testament that speaks of
prophetic events occurring ONLY in seven years.
Once the man of sin is revealed (2 Thess. 2), you can pretty much tell
down to the day when Christ will return to earth, and His return will
therefor no longer be possible at any moment.
Nope.
Jesus had 1335 days allotted to Him in His half of the last seven years, but
"those days have been shortened."
12) Because saved but unglorified people must populate the millennial
kingdom (Rev. 20).
Nope.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he
not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Jesus and His entourage won't be going after the confused--just the
opponents.
[snip the rest of usual erroneous Satanically inspired and driven garbage
that diverts people from the goal]
Ike
Thanks for your comments Ike. I often begin to wonder if I'm maybe I
was wrong, when you don't attack.
--
=============================================
There is a blessed hope. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says: "And
to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the
dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to
come. The Tribulation is part of the wrath to come, and the
church *will* be delivered from it. Nowhere in the epistles is
the church told to wait or prepare for Tribulation wrath, but
for the Son from heaven." www.pulpitfire.org
=============================================
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Why The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation |
18 Jun 2006 10:12:09 PM |
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"www.pulpitfire.org" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:44958484$0$9918$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
[snip]
Thanks for your comments Ike. I often begin to wonder if I'm maybe I was
wrong, when you don't attack.
You're such a fool. You don't see that you are playing right into Satan's
hands.
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation |
18 Jun 2006 04:11:01 PM |
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I believe what you belive is what you have been convinced off by the
wisdom of man not God.
The bible says no such things ( demons on the other hand would be
highly motivated especially just prior to the tribulation to make you
think you aren't going through it, that if and when you do go through
it you will absolutly fall away from Christ because he didn't rescue
you the way you thought he would )
The tribulation is indeed "jacob's trouble" BUT that has nothing to
with why the church should be raptured away, the two are totally
unrelated. Your ( not that's its your reasoning ) point is like saying
because a man plants seed in one field a cow in spain will be taken to
market. It is reverse unrelated logic like saying the bible doesn't
mention America so America doesn't exist.
Those pretrib verse so often quoted in 1 Thess 4 ALWAYS ignore the few
words "the dead in Christ shall rise first" ie the first ressurection
which is described in Rev 20v4 which happens after the tribulation.
I could not be bothered with the rest of the demonic scribble .. You'll
see it when it happens not from up there but down here.
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| User: "Bud D. Green" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation |
18 Jun 2006 05:00:22 PM |
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On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 11:52:44 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<Yeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> wrote:
"www.pulpitfire.org" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4494b4d1$0$9922$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
<Flush> Mythology, mysticism, illegitimate religious nonsense,
christian lies & deceit, scare tactics, cult rituals
Ahh, much better now
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=AA=BA=AA_rrock?=" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation |
17 Jun 2006 11:35:11 PM |
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A good post worthy of alt.religion.apologetics, however, since it was
cross-posted like spam i didn't bother to read it. Someday, pulpitfire,
you will realize that people like you that abuse the internet do more
harm to the principles they are trying to spew than had they simply
read the internet guidelines and started a simple discussion with
other people in a news group. You should be ashamed of yourself, but
i doubt you will take any time to educate yourself to that level of
decency.
www.pulpitfire.org wrote:
For the following reasons, I believe the church will not go through the
Tribulation described in Revelation 4-19:
1) Because the Tribulation is the time of "Jacob's trouble", not the
churches' (Jeremiah 30:7).
The prophecies of Daniel 9, and the 70th week (which is the seven year
Tribulation), are addressed primarily to the nation Israel and describe
the events leading to her restoration to the city and sanctuary. The
twofold purpose of the Tribulation, is to prepare Israel, spiritually,
for the Messiah she rejected the first time (Jeremiah 30-33), and to
rain judgment on the "inhabitants of the earth" (Rev. 3"10; 8:13). The
only places in the gospel that refer to how God's people should prepare
for Tribulation life, are where He is addressing Jews--primarily in
Matthew, and a little in Luke. The gospel of John--mainly addressing
church age saints-- warns only of general persecution that will come
from men opposed to the truth, and not of God's wrath being poured out
on his bride the church. Read Revelation 12, to see who the players are
during the Tribulation. The woman who gave birth to the male child, is
clearly the nation Israel, not the church.
2) Because the rapture (catching up) is not part of the Day of the Lord.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul has to educate them about the rapture of
the church, and our being caught up together with Him in the air. By
sharp contrast ("But") to the events of this rapture, he tells them they
already knew full well about the events of the "day of the Lord"--the
time when Tribulation judgment would fall on the inhabitants
of the earth.
Now how could they know full well about the Tribulation, but nothing
about the catching up (rapture) of the church? It seems the only way is
if the rapture of the church is not part of the events of the
Tribulation, in Scripture. If that's the case, then the rapture must
occur before the events of the Day of the Lord.
3) Because we're supposed to comfort one another with the hope of the
rapture (1 Thess. 4:18).
It would be hard to imagine "these words" as being a "comfort", if the
Thessalonians thought they'd have to endure the Tribulation before they
would get raptured.
4) Because we are not children of darkness (1 Thess. 5:5).
Regarding those events of the day of the Lord's judgment, Paul said
church age believers are not children of darkness, that the day of the
Lord should overtake them like a thief. It is the children of darkness,
and not children of light, who are overtaken, like a thief, by the day
of the Lord's judgment (5:4-5). It is when "they" (not "you") say
"peace and safety", that destruction shall come upon "them".
You might say then, that they will simply not be overtaken by the day
the way a thief is, but read on, where the passage shows God has not
appointed us to this Tribulation wrath at all.
5) Because God has not appointed us to wrath (1 Thess. 5:8-10).
The Tribulation is an outpouring of God's wrath (Rev. 6:16-17; 11:18;
14:19; 15:1; 16:1, 19), and a time of His judgment (Rev. 6:10; 11:10;
13:8, 12, 14;14:7; 15:4; 16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2) and punishment (Isa.
24:21-22). In contrast to the drunken sleepers who will be overtaken
like a thief by the day of the Lord's judgment (which includes the
Tribulation, and not just eternal damnation), we, who are sober, are
supposed to put on for a helmet, the "hope of salvation" (1 Thess.
5:8-10). Why? Because God has "NOT [emphasis mine] appointed us to
wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for
us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."
This knowledge is supposed to be a comfort, regarding not only those who
sleep in Christ, but also the day
of the Lord's judgment. Whether we are alive or dead, we will be with
the Lord, and not experiencing the wrath of God that falls on the
drunken sleepers who are children of darkness (cf. Ephesians 5:8,13,14).
6) Because the rapture assures us we have not entered the Tribulation (2
Thess. 2)
The Thessalonians were troubled by the thought that maybe they had
already entered the day of Tribulation. Paul besought them by the hope
of the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto
Him", that they had not already entered the day of Christ's judgment (2
Thess 2:1-2). This prospect of the coming of the Lord, and
gathering of the saints to be with Him, would not be a proof for them,
that they had not entered the Tribulation, if they had to endure the
entire, or even part of the Tribulation, before they were gathered to
the Lord. They could not have entered the time of judgment (and neither
could we), because the gathering of church age saints (whether
they sleep or are alive) to the Lord will occur first, and this is the
hope by which Paul besought them.
7) Because God promised to deliver the church from the hour of
Tribulation (Revelation 3:10)
In Revelation 3:10, God promises to deliver the church from the very
hour in which the testing occurs for "them" "that dwell upon the earth".
How can they be delivered from testing that falls on earth dwellers,
and from the very hour in which the testing occurs, if they still dwell
on earth, or in a realm where earth time applies? Apparently, the
church will not dwell on earth during the hour the testing occurs. This
truth applies to whomever "has an ear" in the
"churches" (v13).
8) Because John was called up to heaven before the "things which shall
be hereafter" (Rev 4:1)
In Revelation 1:19, John was told to write the "things which thou hast
seen " (vision of the resurrected Christ), the "things which are"
(letters to the "churches"), and the "things which shall be hereafter"
(Tribulation wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth). The letters to
the churches conclude the "the things which are". But before God shows
him the "things which shall be hereafter", He calls him up into heaven,
from earth (4:1). It is not until he is in heaven
that he sees the judgments which shall be "hereafter", falling on "them
who dwell on the earth". This is in keeping with the promise God just
made in Revelation 3:10, that the church will not go through the hour of
testing that falls on "them that dwell upon the earth", and that the
church (addressed in the "things which are"), is not part of the
"things which shall be hereafter".
9) Because Tribulation saints are not the "church".
Revelation 1-3 addresses believers as the "church" something like 19
times before Revelation 4 refers to the judgments which shall be
"hereafter" falling on "the inhabitants of the earth". Then, during the
time of the Tribulation, instantly believers are referred to only by
terms like "saints", and there is not one reference to the "church".
Israel, and the 144,000 chosen from the twelve tribes are the subjects
of God's sealing during that time, and not the church (cf. Revelation 12).
Now, is it just a coincidence Revelation refers to church age believers,
during the "things which are", as the "church" 19 times, and then
instantly stops calling believers the "church" once John is raptured to
heaven and the "things which shall be hereafter" begin? It seems highly
unlikely to me.
10) Because the church returns with Christ to earth, at the end of the
Tribulation (Rev. 19).
2 Corinthians 11:2 says the church is being presented as a chaste virgin
to Christ. Ephesians 5:27-32 says the relationship between husband and
wife is a picture of the union of Christ and the church. The Lord is
purifying the church for himself, so He may present it to himself
without spot or wrinkle. Then, in Revelation 19, we have the
bride, coming with Christ, from heaven, dressed in fine white garments,
which is the righteousness of the saints. This seems to show that the
church is not on earth during the Tribulation, but is with Christ, in
heaven. This also seems consistent with the fact that the twenty four
elders are introduced right after John has been raptured to heaven at
the end of the "things which are" (church age), and before he sees the
things "which shall be hereafter".
11) Because the return of Christ for the church could happen at any time
(John 14:2-3; Acts 1:11; 1 Cor. 15:51-52; Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess.
1:10; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).
Matthew, and other passages primarily addressed to Jews, warns Israel to
prepare for the Tribulation. John, and passages addressed primarily to
the church, however, make no mention of preparing for the Tribulation
that God will pour on earth, but only for the general tribulation and
persecution that will come from men opposed to the truth. There, we
find such comforts as in John 14:2-3, where Christ tells us not to let
our hearts be troubled, since He is going to prepare a place for us, and
will come again to take us to be with Him. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 tells
us to wait for the Son from heaven, which "delivered us from the wrath
to come". Every indication for the church, seems to be to expect that
the Lord could arrive at any moment to translate us into His presence
and glory (cf. Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).
By contrast, we know from the prophecies in Daniel, that once the 70th
week of the Tribulation begins, it will last almost exactly seven years.
Once the man of sin is revealed (2 Thess. 2), you can pretty much tell
down to the day when Christ will return to earth, and His return will
therefor no longer be possible at any moment.
12) Because saved but unglorified people must populate the millennial
kingdom (Rev. 20).
We know that when the resurrection and rapture occurs, it will
immediately transform all church age believer's bodies to their
glorified state (1 Cor. 15; 1 Thess. 4). We also know that in the
glorified state, believers do not die or reproduce (Matt. 22:30). Only
believers enter the millennial kingdom of Christ (Matt. 25:32-46), yet
there is reproduction, difference of age, death, and rebellion during
that time (Isa. 65:20; Zech. 8:5; Rev. 20:12). This means that saved,
but unglorified people must enter the millennial kingdom of Christ. If
the rapture occurs any time after the Tribulation has begun up until
Christ returns and establishes His 1,000 year reign on earth (Rev. 20),
the Tribulation saints who enter it would possess glorified bodies
incapable of marriage, reproduction, death, or rebellion. Since all
these occur during the millennium that follows the Tribulation, the
saints who enter it from the Tribulation cannot be the church, which
looks forward to the rapture and translation (1 Thess. 4).
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| User: "Melchizedek" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation |
18 Jun 2006 09:23:52 AM |
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www.pulpitfire.org wrote:
For the following reasons, I believe the church will not go through the
Tribulation described in Revelation 4-19:
1) Because the Tribulation is the time of "Jacob's trouble", not the
churches' (Jeremiah 30:7).
The prophecies of Daniel 9, and the 70th week (which is the seven year
Tribulation), are addressed primarily to the nation Israel and describe
the events leading to her restoration to the city and sanctuary. The
twofold purpose of the Tribulation, is to prepare Israel, spiritually,
for the Messiah she rejected the first time (Jeremiah 30-33), and to
rain judgment on the "inhabitants of the earth" (Rev. 3"10; 8:13). The
only places in the gospel that refer to how God's people should prepare
for Tribulation life, are where He is addressing Jews--primarily in
Matthew, and a little in Luke. The gospel of John--mainly addressing
church age saints-- warns only of general persecution that will come
from men opposed to the truth, and not of God's wrath being poured out
on his bride the church. Read Revelation 12, to see who the players are
during the Tribulation. The woman who gave birth to the male child, is
clearly the nation Israel, not the church.
2) Because the rapture (catching up) is not part of the Day of the Lord.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul has to educate them about the rapture of
the church, and our being caught up together with Him in the air. By
sharp contrast ("But") to the events of this rapture, he tells them they
already knew full well about the events of the "day of the Lord"--the
time when Tribulation judgment would fall on the inhabitants
of the earth.
Now how could they know full well about the Tribulation, but nothing
about the catching up (rapture) of the church? It seems the only way is
if the rapture of the church is not part of the events of the
Tribulation, in Scripture. If that's the case, then the rapture must
occur before the events of the Day of the Lord.
3) Because we're supposed to comfort one another with the hope of the
rapture (1 Thess. 4:18).
It would be hard to imagine "these words" as being a "comfort", if the
Thessalonians thought they'd have to endure the Tribulation before they
would get raptured.
4) Because we are not children of darkness (1 Thess. 5:5).
Regarding those events of the day of the Lord's judgment, Paul said
church age believers are not children of darkness, that the day of the
Lord should overtake them like a thief. It is the children of darkness,
and not children of light, who are overtaken, like a thief, by the day
of the Lord's judgment (5:4-5). It is when "they" (not "you") say
"peace and safety", that destruction shall come upon "them".
You might say then, that they will simply not be overtaken by the day
the way a thief is, but read on, where the passage shows God has not
appointed us to this Tribulation wrath at all.
5) Because God has not appointed us to wrath (1 Thess. 5:8-10).
The Tribulation is an outpouring of God's wrath (Rev. 6:16-17; 11:18;
14:19; 15:1; 16:1, 19), and a time of His judgment (Rev. 6:10; 11:10;
13:8, 12, 14;14:7; 15:4; 16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2) and punishment (Isa.
24:21-22). In contrast to the drunken sleepers who will be overtaken
like a thief by the day of the Lord's judgment (which includes the
Tribulation, and not just eternal damnation), we, who are sober, are
supposed to put on for a helmet, the "hope of salvation" (1 Thess.
5:8-10). Why? Because God has "NOT [emphasis mine] appointed us to
wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for
us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."
This knowledge is supposed to be a comfort, regarding not only those who
sleep in Christ, but also the day
of the Lord's judgment. Whether we are alive or dead, we will be with
the Lord, and not experiencing the wrath of God that falls on the
drunken sleepers who are children of darkness (cf. Ephesians 5:8,13,14).
6) Because the rapture assures us we have not entered the Tribulation (2
Thess. 2)
The Thessalonians were troubled by the thought that maybe they had
already entered the day of Tribulation. Paul besought them by the hope
of the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto
Him", that they had not already entered the day of Christ's judgment (2
Thess 2:1-2). This prospect of the coming of the Lord, and
gathering of the saints to be with Him, would not be a proof for them,
that they had not entered the Tribulation, if they had to endure the
entire, or even part of the Tribulation, before they were gathered to
the Lord. They could not have entered the time of judgment (and neither
could we), because the gathering of church age saints (whether
they sleep or are alive) to the Lord will occur first, and this is the
hope by which Paul besought them.
7) Because God promised to deliver the church from the hour of
Tribulation (Revelation 3:10)
In Revelation 3:10, God promises to deliver the church from the very
hour in which the testing occurs for "them" "that dwell upon the earth".
How can they be delivered from testing that falls on earth dwellers,
and from the very hour in which the testing occurs, if they still dwell
on earth, or in a realm where earth time applies? Apparently, the
church will not dwell on earth during the hour the testing occurs. This
truth applies to whomever "has an ear" in the
"churches" (v13).
8) Because John was called up to heaven before the "things which shall
be hereafter" (Rev 4:1)
In Revelation 1:19, John was told to write the "things which thou hast
seen " (vision of the resurrected Christ), the "things which are"
(letters to the "churches"), and the "things which shall be hereafter"
(Tribulation wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth). The letters to
the churches conclude the "the things which are". But before God shows
him the "things which shall be hereafter", He calls him up into heaven,
from earth (4:1). It is not until he is in heaven
that he sees the judgments which shall be "hereafter", falling on "them
who dwell on the earth". This is in keeping with the promise God just
made in Revelation 3:10, that the church will not go through the hour of
testing that falls on "them that dwell upon the earth", and that the
church (addressed in the "things which are"), is not part of the
"things which shall be hereafter".
9) Because Tribulation saints are not the "church".
Revelation 1-3 addresses believers as the "church" something like 19
times before Revelation 4 refers to the judgments which shall be
"hereafter" falling on "the inhabitants of the earth". Then, during the
time of the Tribulation, instantly believers are referred to only by
terms like "saints", and there is not one reference to the "church".
Israel, and the 144,000 chosen from the twelve tribes are the subjects
of God's sealing during that time, and not the church (cf. Revelation 12).
Now, is it just a coincidence Revelation refers to church age believers,
during the "things which are", as the "church" 19 times, and then
instantly stops calling believers the "church" once John is raptured to
heaven and the "things which shall be hereafter" begin? It seems highly
unlikely to me.
10) Because the church returns with Christ to earth, at the end of the
Tribulation (Rev. 19).
2 Corinthians 11:2 says the church is being presented as a chaste virgin
to Christ. Ephesians 5:27-32 says the relationship between husband and
wife is a picture of the union of Christ and the church. The Lord is
purifying the church for himself, so He may present it to himself
without spot or wrinkle. Then, in Revelation 19, we have the
bride, coming with Christ, from heaven, dressed in fine white garments,
which is the righteousness of the saints. This seems to show that the
church is not on earth during the Tribulation, but is with Christ, in
heaven. This also seems consistent with the fact that the twenty four
elders are introduced right after John has been raptured to heaven at
the end of the "things which are" (church age), and before he sees the
things "which shall be hereafter".
11) Because the return of Christ for the church could happen at any time
(John 14:2-3; Acts 1:11; 1 Cor. 15:51-52; Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess.
1:10; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).
Matthew, and other passages primarily addressed to Jews, warns Israel to
prepare for the Tribulation. John, and passages addressed primarily to
the church, however, make no mention of preparing for the Tribulation
that God will pour on earth, but only for the general tribulation and
persecution that will come from men opposed to the truth. There, we
find such comforts as in John 14:2-3, where Christ tells us not to let
our hearts be troubled, since He is going to prepare a place for us, and
will come again to take us to be with Him. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 tells
us to wait for the Son from heaven, which "delivered us from the wrath
to come". Every indication for the church, seems to be to expect that
the Lord could arrive at any moment to translate us into His presence
and glory (cf. Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).
By contrast, we know from the prophecies in Daniel, that once the 70th
week of the Tribulation begins, it will last almost exactly seven years.
Once the man of sin is revealed (2 Thess. 2), you can pretty much tell
down to the day when Christ will return to earth, and His return will
therefor no longer be possible at any moment.
12) Because saved but unglorified people must populate the millennial
kingdom (Rev. 20).
We know that when the resurrection and rapture occurs, it will
immediately transform all church age believer's bodies to their
glorified state (1 Cor. 15; 1 Thess. 4). We also know that in the
glorified state, believers do not die or reproduce (Matt. 22:30). Only
believers enter the millennial kingdom of Christ (Matt. 25:32-46), yet
there is reproduction, difference of age, death, and rebellion during
that time (Isa. 65:20; Zech. 8:5; Rev. 20:12). This means that saved,
but unglorified people must enter the millennial kingdom of Christ. If
the rapture occurs any time after the Tribulation has begun up until
Christ returns and establishes His 1,000 year reign on earth (Rev. 20),
the Tribulation saints who enter it would possess glorified bodies
incapable of marriage, reproduction, death, or rebellion. Since all
these occur during the millennium that follows the Tribulation, the
saints who enter it from the Tribulation cannot be the church, which
looks forward to the rapture and translation (1 Thess. 4).
''
The Rapture of the Church
THE DESCRIPTION OF THE RAPTURE (JN 14:1-3; 1 CO 15:51-57; 1 TH 4:13-18)
The title "rapture" comes from the Latin word used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 which is translated in English "caught up." The rapture
of the church is the catching up or translation of the church. It is the catching up to the dwelling place promised in John 14:1-3.
In the Corinthians passage Paul says this is a mystery. That word "mystery" ought to be like a red flag reminding us that this is
something not known before but now revealed. Resurrection was no mystery, for the Old Testament taught clearly that men would be
raised from the dead (Job 19:25; Is 26:19; Dan 12:2), but it did not reveal that a number of people would go into God's presence
without experiencing death. That is why "we shall not all sleep" is a mystery (1 Co 15:51). At the rapture some mortals (living)
will only need to put on immortality, while those whose bodies have seen corruption (dead) will need to put on incorruption through
resurrection. Both routes to heaven involve change-the living need to be translated and the dead raised. The last generation of
Christians will not experience death.
These changes will occur "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." The rapture will be instantaneous, not gradual, for the Greek
word translated "moment" is the term from which our word "atom" comes. Because when the atom was discovered it was thought to be
indivisible, it was named "atom." Even though the atom has been split, the word still means "indivisible," and indicates that the
rapture will occur in an indivisible instant of time. Furthermore, Paul says that we shall all be changed, not part of the company
of believers. Thus 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 teaches three things: (1) The rapture will include not only the bodily resurrection of
those believers who have died, but also the changing of the bodies of those who are alive at the time it happens. (2) It will be
instantaneous. (3) It will include all believers, not simply some of them.
But it is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 that gives the most detail about what will happen when the Lord returns. Four things are featured
in this passage:
1. Christ Himself will return (v. 16), and the attendant circumstances will include all the grandeur His personal presence deserves.
There will be a shout of command, the voice of an (not the) archangel, and the trumpet of God.
2. There will be a resurrection (v. 16). The dead will be raised and the living changed, all in the twinkling of an eye. However,
only the dead in Christ and living Christians will experience the rapture, not all people. There is not one general resurrection,
but several, this one involving only believers.
3. There will be a rapture (v. 17). The word means the act of conveying a person from one place to another, and is therefore quite
properly used in this passage of conveying living persons to heaven (see 2 Co 12:4).
4. There will be reunions (v. 17) both with loved ones who have previously died in the Lord and with the Lord Himself. And all these
reunions will be forever.
THE TIME OF THE RAPTURE
Almost all agree that the rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming in the sense that the former is when Christ comes
for His own people and the latter is His coming with them in triumph and glory. But how far apart these two events are in time is
the disputed question. Amillennialists believe that they both occur at the close of the tribulation days but that the rapture is
immediately followed by the second coming (which is immediately followed by eternity without any millennium). Among
premillennialists there are four views of the time of the rapture.
Posttribulation view. The posttribulationalists teach the same thing as amillennialists concerning the chronological relation of the
rapture and the second coming (except that in posttribulationalism the second coming is followed by the millennium). According to
this viewpoint the church will be present on earth during the tribulation period, and the comings for and with His saints occur in
quick succession at the close of that period. Their principal arguments for this are:
1. The rapture and the second coming are described in the Scriptures by the same words, which indicates that they occur at the same
time (1 Th 4:15 and Mt 24:27).
2. Since saints are mentioned as present during the tribulation days, the church is present on earth during that time (Mt 24:22).
3. It is predicted that a resurrection will occur at the beginning of the millennium, and since it is assumed that this is the same
resurrection as that which occurs at the rapture, the rapture will take place just before the millennium (Rev 20:4).
4. The church can and will be preserved from the wrath of the tribulation period by supernatural protection while living through
that time and not by deliverance from the period (as Israel was protected from the plagues while living in Egypt).
5. The Scriptures do not teach imminency; therefore, the rapture can be after the known events of the tribulation.
6. Posttribulationalism was the position of the early church.
Midtribulation. The midtribulationalists believe that Christ's coming for His people will occur at the middle point of the
tribulation period-that is 3 1/2 years after it begins and 3 1/2 years before the end at which time the Lord will return with His
saints to set up His millennial kingdom. The arguments for this concept are:
1. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the same as the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15, and it is sounded at the middle
of the tribulation.
2. Actually, the great tribulation is only the last half of Daniel's seventieth week, and the church is promised deliverance only
from that (Rev 11:2; 12:6).
3. The resurrection of the two witnesses pictures the rapture of the church, and their resurrection occurs at the middle of the
tribulation (Rev 11:11).
Partial rapture. The partial rapturists teach that only those believers who are worthy will be taken out of the world before the
tribulation begins, while others will be left to endure its wrath. For those left on earth, that time will serve as a time of
purging. The idea is taken from verses like Hebrews 9:28 which seem to require preparedness as a prerequisite for meeting the Lord.
The viewpoint is based on the idea that good works are necessary in order to qualify to be raptured, but the question is not
answered, how many good works? Also, it seems to ignore the fact that 1 Corinthians 15:51 (ASV) says plainly that "we shall all be
changed" in the rapture.
Ryrie, C. C. (1995, c1972). A survey of Bible doctrine. Chicago: Moody Press.
------------------------------------------------------------
The Blessed Hope - Small Group Bible Study
by Dr. Chuck Missler
A two part series forming the basis and defending
purpost of the Rapture of the Church in the last days.
Presumption:
You have fallen for Satan's lies that the church will be whisked
away and not endure some or all the seven year period of tribulation.
Don't you feel a little uneasy that this pre-tribulational teaching only
began in 1830 with Charles Darby? And what about the fact that Jesus
didn't teach pre-tribulational Rapture? I would enjoy seeing you try.
Answer:
Jesus DID teach pre-tributional Rapture. He said it would be like it
was in the days of Noah (Matt. 24:37), a brilliant word picture.
In the days of Noah, the non-believers were scoffing, the ark was
constructed, "God shut the door" (Gen. 7:16), the ark floated up
over the disaster below, and then returned to the earth to begin a new
dispensation (time period). This is exactly what will happen in the future.
God will shut the door with Rapture ending the Church Age. We will
be "caught up" (I Thess. 4:17), above the tribulation below on the earth,
and then we will return to the earth to begin a new dispensation.
Another way to look at it would be to say that Noah was pre-flood,
not mid-flood or post-flood.
Also, contrary to what is being taught in many Christian circles, the
doctrine of pre-tribulational Rapture WAS taught prior to 1830.
Not only was it taught in scripture by Paul under the inspiration of the
Holy Spirit, it was also taught by early Christian teachers. For instance,
in 1994 several manuscripts were found written by the Christian writer
and poet, Ephraem the Syrian. He lived from 306 to 373 AD.
The manuscripts show that he believed in a literal interpretation of scripture,
the pre-millennial return of Christ, a man who would become the anti-christ
and rule the Roman Empire during the last days, the pre-tribulational Rapture,
and the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week at the end of this age concluding
with the Battle of Armageddon and Christ's return.
The Rapture is Biblical and it is the first stage of the 2nd Advent.
The Rapture Video Series: Media Player [96 kbps]
http://207.234.208.119/bibleweb.info/=DRIVE=bibleweb-drive/_-_/=CD-R=the-rapture-web/index.html
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// A Christian Bible Study Collection
// Small Group Bible Studies
// http://bibleweb.info/0-newsgroup-material/
[XXXX][O]========= The Word of God =========><>
\\ 250Gb online - 1.5Tb DVD archive
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Why The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation |
18 Jun 2006 11:55:19 AM |
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"Melchizedek" <Melchizedek@as-if.com> wrote in message
news:Jidlg.94279$iB2.27870@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
www.pulpitfire.org wrote:
LOL
Lu 6:39 And [Jesus] spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind?
shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
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| User: "St Dog the Wet" |
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| Title: Re: Why The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation |
18 Jun 2006 10:34:38 AM |
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Melchizedek wrote:
'The Rapture' and the 'Millennial Reign of Christ on this Earth'
are
DOCTRINE OF DEVILS
In the previous post, "What Is a Doctrine of Devils?" I offered
the following list and presented scripture to demonstrate the
variations and kinds of false doctrines which are defined as
Doctrine of Devils.
Some common traits of Doctrines of Devils; a doctrine of devils
is one which,
A) Lies about God
lies about the Person or Character of God
makes false accusations against God
is blasphemy
B) Lies about God's Word
lies about what God has said
His promises to his people
His Word of Prophecy
C) Lies about God's People
about the Nation Israel (blood descendants of Abraham)
about Israel (descendants by adoption, sons by promise)
about Who God's People are
In this article I will first (PART ONE) present the teachings of
"the doctrine of the rapture" which fit the description above.
Second, (PART TWO) I will examine 'the rapture' doctrine, and
Scripture which is either used to support the false doctrine or
about which the false doctrine lies about, or contradicts.
Last, in the conclusion (PART THREE) I will present the evidence.
PART ONE
A: LIES ABOUT GOD
1.) Lies about Who Causes the Tribulation
This lie ignores the fact that Jesus told us who will cause
the Great Tribulation, and blames it on God. The lie is; that God
brings this tribulation on the world, and is, therefore
blasphemy. Since God is the cause of this tribulation, then God
would be unjust to bring this Tribulation on His People.
Rapture Doctrine teaches: The Tribulation
a) (is) to rain judgment on the "inhabitants of the earth" Rev
3:10; 8:13
*The Lie: John did not say "God would rain judgment" on the
inhabitants of the earth. What John did say (Rev 3:10) is, "the
hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world." And
(Rev 8:13) this says; "trumpet of the three angels," not Tribulation.
b) (is) God's wrath being poured out on his bride the church;
Because God has not appointed us to wrath 1 Thes 5:8-10
*The Lie: (see "WRATH" below) the confusion of God's Judgment and
the Vials of Wrath with the Great Tribulation; a false accusation
that God is the Cause of this Tribulation.
c) The Tribulation is an outpouring of God's wrath, Rev 6:16-17;
11:18; 14:19; 15:1; 16:1, 19
The Lie: not one of the quoted scriptures say this Wrath is The
Great Tribulation. (Mat 24:14-21, Rev 7:14) Another false
accusation, saying God is the cause of this Tribulation.
d) (is) a time of His judgment Rev 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12,
14;14:7; 15:4; 16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2
*The Lie: not one of the quoted scriptures equates God's Judgment
with The Great Tribulation, (Mat 24:14-21, Rev 7:14.) This is
another false accusation against God, blaming Him for the
Tribulation.
e) (is) Punishment Isa 24:21-22
*The Lie: this scripture does not equate the punishment described
as being The Great Tribulation: 'rapture' doctrine does not
recognize the source, cause or time of this punishment in the
sequence of End Time Events. This scripture, in context,
describes the events of THAT DAY. (2 Pet 3:3-12, Isa 27:13)(Mat
24:14-21, Rev 7:14)
2.) Lies about What the Tribulation Is
"The twofold purpose of the Tribulation, is to prepare Israel,
spiritually, for the Messiah she rejected the first time
(Jeremiah 30-33), and to rain judgment on the 'inhabitants of the
earth' (Rev 3:10; 8:13)."
"The Tribulation is the time of "Jacob's trouble..." Jeremiah 30:7
This lie is two sided:
a) That it is God's punishment on Israel for rejecting the
Messiah, to prepare Israel spiritually to receive Him during His
reign on earth, Jeremiah 30-33
*The Lie: There is no Scripture which teaches the Great
Tribulation is to prepare Israel, or that God is the cause of
this Tribulation (Jacob's trouble). This lie denies that the New
Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah
in the day of Pentecost, AD 33. Acts 2
*The Lie exposed: This scripture, (Jer 30:7) in context, is a
description of That Day, the Day of The Lord; it is not a
description of "Jacob's Trouble:" But it is the day of salvation
for God's People. Compare other scriptures describing That Day,
The Day of The Lord, The Day of God and the events of That Day. 2
Pet 3:3-12
b) That this tribulation is "God's Wrath on the people of the
World." (see #1.a)
Since the Church (according to 'rapture' doctrine) is not Israel,
then this tribulation (according to 'the rapture' doctrine) is
not on the Church (proving the Church absent, according to
'rapture' doctrine, during this time). (This is a lie about who
the Church is. See #C)
*The Lie exposed: see:
The Church / the Kingdom http://tinyurl.com/sxkcz
And
The Church in the Last Days http://tinyurl.com/mfb9l
*The Lie exposed: John did not say "tribulation" in 3:13; his
word is "temptation."
*The Lie exposed: John did not say "rain judgment" on the world;
his words are "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by
reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels,
which are yet to sound! The "last three trumpets" are not The
Great Tribulation described by Jesus. Mat 24:14-21
B: Rapture Doctrine: Lies About God's Word
These lies either claim the Word of God states something it does
not, or that it does not mean or say what it in fact does say.
a) "the return of Christ for the church could happen at any time,
John 14:2-3; Acts 1:11; 1 Cor 15:51-52; Phil 3:20; Col 3:4; 1
Thes 1:10; 1 Tim 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet 3:3-4 (See below)
*The Lie: none of the quoted scriptures says 'the Lord could
return at any time,' nor do they support that statement.
b) The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation is the
"outpouring of God's Wrath" (Rev 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:19; 15:1;
16:1, 19)
*The Lie: none of the quoted scriptures says "the Great
Tribulation is the outpouring of God's Wrath," nor do they
support that statement.
c) The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation is the "A
time of His Judgment" (Rev 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14;14:7; 15:4;
16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2)
*The Lie: not one of the quoted scriptures says "the Tribulation
is a time of His judgment," nor do they support that statement.
d) The Doctrine of the rapture states that "Tribulation and time
of Punishment" Isa 24:21-22
*The Lie: The quoted scripture does say this is a time of
punishment: but does not equate this punishment with The Great
Tribulation as described by Jesus. Mat 24:14-21. This scripture
says, "And it shall come to pass in that day," and the student of
His Word who loves truth will compare other scripture which
describes "that day," the day of the Lord. 2 Pet 3:3-12.
C: "Rapture Doctrine: Lies about God's People
a) "Because Tribulation saints are not the church"
*The Lie: The term "tribulation saints" is not found in the word
of God. (see #c below)
b) Because God promised to deliver the church from the hour of
Tribulation, Revelation 3:10
*The Lie: The word "Tribulation" is not used in this Scripture --
the word used is "temptation."
c) "Revelation 1-3 addresses believers as the "church" something
like 19 times before Revelation 4 refers to the judgments which
shall be "hereafter" falling on "the inhabitants of the earth"
*The Lie: The terms "Saints, Brethren, Brothers, Elect, We Who
Remain, The Twelve Tribes, Israel of God and Witnesses" are used
throughout the Word of God to name His People.
The Church / the Kingdom : http://tinyurl.com/sxkcz
The Church in the Last Days : http://tinyurl.com/mfb9l
PART TWO
Comparing the False Doctrine with the Scripture
Wrath
"God has not appointed us to wrath" 1 Thes 5:8-10
This confusion of Tribulation with both The Vials of Wrath and
the Wrath of God's Judgment is a deliberate effort to,
1.) Lie about God (stating or inferring that God is the source or
cause of The Tribulation)
2.) Lie about God's Word (stating or inferring the God's Word
teaches the escape from The Tribulation)
This Statement ("God has not appointed us to wrath") BEGGS us to
answer the question: "Who Has God Appointed To Wrath?"
When did Salvation Come?
It is written that we are not appointed to wrath. "Jesus which
hath delivered us from the wrath to come." 1 Thes 1:10 and 5:9.
The term `delivered' is past tense: that is, this is something
which has been done, not prophecy about something which will be
done at the end of time. "Now is come salvation, and strength,
and the Kingdom of our God..." Rev 12:10. Notice that the vision
in Rev 12 is of the birth of Christ, so this is a 'first century'
event. Salvation came to all who receive Christ when He died as
our sacrifice.
How did we get salvation? By the death of the Lamb of God. When
did we get salvation? When we accepted the death of the Lamb of
God as atonement for our sins. Mat 1:21, Acts 2:37-47, Col 1:12-14
First Century Saints
This "saved from wrath" means the same thing to us it meant to
the First Century Saints. That is, by His sacrifice the Messiah
has saved us from the eternal separation from God which we earned
by our sins: grace rather than judgment. Acts 2:21, 47; 15:11;
Rom 5:9, 1 Cor 5:5
The First Century Saints were saved from wrath, just as we are;
and still suffered Tribulation, just as we will. Rev 6:9-11,
7:14, 11:3-15, 13.
Who Did God Appoint To Wrath?
"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up to
thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the
righteous judgment of God." Rom 2:5-8. Those who reject the
Messiah, deny Truth and refuse to repent from their life of
rebellion are appointed to wrath.
When will those who are appointed to wrath receive that wrath? On
That Day, the Day of Judgment. Rev 11:18, Zep 1:15-16.
Vials of Wrath
And please note: the Vials of wrath are poured out upon the
Beast's Kingdom, not upon the Saints -- just as the 10 Plagues
were poured out upon the Egyptians, not on the Twelve Tribes of
Judah. Rev 16:1-10
Outpouring of Wrath
The Doctrine of 'the rapture states' that Tribulation is the
"outpouring of God's Wrath" (Rev 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:19; 15:1;
16:1, 19)
Examine the scripture to see if these things be so. Acts 17:11-12
These quoted scripture do have one thing in common: they do
contain the word "wrath." However, not one defines this Wrath as
"the Tribulation," or as 'the outpouring of God's Wrath."
Rev 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, fall on us, and hide us
from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the
wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able
to stand?
Rev 11:18
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time
of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest
give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest
destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 14:19
"And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered
the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of
the wrath of God.
Rev 15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven
angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up
the wrath of God.
Rev 16:1, 19
1, And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the
seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath
of God upon the earth.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the
cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance
before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the
fierceness of his wrath.
Do any of the Quoted Scripture state that "the Tribulation is the
outpouring of God's Wrath"? No. Because the Doctrine of 'the
rapture' states that The Tribulation is an outpouring of God's
Wrath, then this is both a lie about God and God's Conduct, and
His Word.
Judgment Wrath
The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation is the "A
time of His Judgment" (Rev 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14;14:7; 15:4;
16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2)
Examine the scripture to see if these things be so. Acts 17:11-12.
Rev 6:10
"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy
and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that
dwell on the earth?
Rev 11:10
"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and
make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these
two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 13:8, 12, 14,
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose
names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,
and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the
first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of
those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the
beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should
make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and
did live.
Rev 14:7
"Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for
the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made
heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 15:4
"Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou
only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before
thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Rev 16:5-7
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O
Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged
thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou
hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend
out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that
dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in
the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they
behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 19:2
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged
the great *****, which did corrupt the earth with her
fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Do any of the Quoted Scripture say "the Tribulation is a time of
God's Judgment"? No. The quoted scriptures do not all contain the
word 'Judgment' or 'Judge,' and none contain "tribulation" or
describe "The Great Tribulation" as God's Judgment. (Mat 24:14-21)
Time of Punishment
The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation and time of
"Punishment" Isa 24:21-22
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall
punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings
of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered
in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many
days shall they be visited.
Does this Quoted Scripture say "the Tribulation is a time of
God's Punishment"? No. The quoted scripture does not define
"Punish" or "punishment" as Tribulation, does not contain the
word "tribulation," nor describe "tribulation" AS punishment.
This scripture does not equate the punishment described as being
The Great Tribulation, nor recognize the source, cause or time in
the sequence of End Time Events of this punishment. This
scripture, in context, describes the events of THAT DAY. (2 Pet
3:3-12, Isa 27:13)(Mat 24:14-21, Rev 7:14)
PART THREE
Putting it all together; The Conclusion
A) LIES ABOUT GOD
To lie and falsely accuse God is an act of Blasphemy
1.) The rapture states that The Great Tribulation is the "A
time of His Judgment"
*This is a false accusation against God. (Mat 24:14-21)
2.) The rapture states that The Great Tribulation is the
"outpouring of God's Wrath"
*This is a false accusation against God. (Mat 24:14-21)
These false accusations against God ignore the fact that
Christ, and the Word of God, reveals both the source and causes
of the Great Tribulation. (Mat 24:14-21)
B) LIES ABOUT GOD'S WORD
1.) The return of Christ for the church could happen at any
time, John 14:2-3; Acts 1:11; 1 Cor 15:51-52; Phil 3:20; Col 3:4;
1 Thes 1:10; 1 Tim 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet 3:3-4
*The Lie about God's Word: Not one of the quoted scriptures say;
'the Lord could return at any time,' nor do they support that
statement.
2.) The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation is
the "outpouring of God's Wrath" (Rev 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:19; 15:1;
16:1, 19)
*The Lie about God's Word: Not one of the quoted scriptures say;
'The Tribulation is an outpouring of God's Wrath,' nor do they
support that statement.
3.) The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation is
the "A time of His Judgment" (Rev 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14;14:7;
15:4; 16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2)
*The Lie about God's Word: Not one of the quoted scriptures say;
'The Tribulation is a time of His judgment,' nor do they support
that statement.
4.) The Doctrine of the rapture states that Tribulation and
time of "Punishment" Isa 24:21-22
*The Lie about God's Word: This scripture does not define
"Punish" or "punishment" as Tribulation, does not contain the
word "tribulation," nor describe "tribulation" AS punishment.
C) LIES ABOUT GOD'S PEOPLE
1.) The rapture denies that the New Covenant was established
with the House of Israel and the House of Judah (blood
descendants of Abraham)
*The Lie: The New Covenant was established with the House of
Israel and House of Judah on the Day of Pentecost, in AD 33. Jer
31:31, Acts 2.
2.) The rapture denies that "Tribulation saints" are the Church
*The Lie: The term "tribulation saints" is not found in the word
of God. (see #c below.)
3.) The rapture claims that God promised to deliver the
church from the hour of Tribulation, Revelation 3:10
*The Lie: The word "Tribulation" is not used in this Scripture --
the word used is "temptation."
4.) "Revelation 1-3 addresses believers as the "church"
something like 19 times before Revelation 4 refers to the
judgments which shall be "hereafter" falling on "the inhabitants
of the earth"
*The Lie: The terms "Saints, Brethren, Brothers, Elect, We Who
Remain, The Twelve Tribes, Israel of God, and Witnesses are used
throughout the Word of God to name His People.
CONCLUSION
Both "the rapture doctrine" and "the millennial reign of Christ
on this earth" are in fact Doctrine of Devils.
THE BIGGEST LIE
Perhaps the Grandest Lie ever presented to God's People --
and mankind -- is that God is the cause, and is to be blamed for,
the Great Tribulation which the false "God" of Modern Rome will
cause.
For the entire past generation, perhaps the last 80 years, the
writers, teachers and preachers of "the rapture" have been
selling this Doctrine of Devils to mankind. Embedded in the false
hope of their escape from Tribulation is concealed the cause and
source of the suffering the Church is to escape.
The entire world has become aware of the false hope of the
Church's escape, and they laugh at the ridiculous visions of cars
running empty on streets while Christians are whisked into the
sky. The world laughs; but they are not so blind or ignorant that
they miss the not so subtle statement that it is God who brings
this Tribulation on the world.
So the World knows Christians believe that God is the source and
causes of the Tribulation coming on the world. And who taught the
world this lie? Was it Satan? No, not as far as the world knows:
it was Christianity.
So Satan has used God's People to tell The Biggest Lie to the
entire World!
Now, while Satan laughs, and the tribulation becomes impossible
to ignore or deny, the people of the world will blame Christians
-- because, after all, the Church taught them that it is the God
of Abraham who is the cause of this Tribulation.
TRUTH LOST
During the last generation the Church has lost the
opportunity to teach her people the Truth: That Modern Rome will
soon rise to rule the World; that Satan will occupy the body
prepared for him and then proclaim himself to be "God."
During this generation the Church has lost the opportunity to
teach the World the Truth: that Satan's conquest of the world and
claiming to be "God" is the cause of Tribulation.
Because The Church has failed to recognize this Doctrine of
Devils, and has failed to teach both God's People and the people
of the world the truth, the Church will endure the Tribulation of
these Last Days.
Because these false teachers and prophets have lied and added
words to the visions of John, they have added the wrath of the
seven vials of God's Wrath to their own lives.
If you are one who has believed the lies of the 'rapture' and the
'millennial reign of Christ on this earth,' and you will not
abandon these lies, you too will receive your portion of the
vials of God's Wrath.
If you are one who has refused to abandon these lies you will
also endure the laughter and ridicule of those who hate you --
when they discover you can not escape.
It Is Done: There will be no more delay.
oldwetdog
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