WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Glenn"
Date:	06 Aug 2007 07:25:38 PM
Object:	WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY

Why You Don't Need the Doctrine of the Trinity
1.) The trinity doctrine teaches that God the Father is God.
Jesus said that His Father, God the Father, is both His Father and
His God. John 20:17
There is no scripture which defines or describes God as a triune Being.
Therefore, since the Bible teaches that God the Father is God, then we
don't need the trinity doctrine.
2.) The trinity doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit is God
The Bible teaches that the Spirit of God is God.
Jesus said, "God is a Spirit." John 4:24 [KJV] Therefore, God is
Spirit, the Spirit of God is God.
There is no scripture which states that the Spirit of God is a
persona of a multiple persona Being. God the Father and the Spirit of
God IS God, the same unique individual Being.
Therefore, since the Bible teaches that the Spirit of God IS God, then
you don't need the trinity doctrine.
3.) The doctrine of the trinity teaches the Jesus is God
The Bible teaches that Jesus is God.
John 20:28, Ps 110:1-2, Mat 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28.
There is no scripture which defines or describes or states that
Jesus is a persona of a multiple personality being.
Therefore, since the Bible teaches that Jesus is God, then you don't
need trinity doctrine.
4.) The trinity doctrine teaches the Deity of Christ
The Bible teaches the Deity of Christ
Jesus was born ("Conceived") of woman, therefore His flesh is the
same essence and nature as His mother and the "Son of Man(kind)" is/was
Human.
Jesus was begotten ("sired", "fathered") by God the Father,
therefore his Spirit/Soul is the same Essence and Nature as His Father,
and the "Son of God" is Divine, Eternal Spirit. Luke 1:32-35.
Jesus the Child of Mary and God, and the Soul/Spirit of Christ, is
one unique individual Being.
Therefore, since the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is Deity, then you
don't need trinity doctrine.
5) Jesus did not correct Peter's Confession
"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Mat 16:16
Jesus did not correct Martha's Confession
"Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which
should come into the world." John 11:27.
Therefore, since the Bible teaches that both Martha's and Peter's
confession was acceptable to Christ, then you don't need the trinity
doctrine.
You Don't Need Trinity Doctrine Because It Contradicts Scripture
ONE GOD
* Matt 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is
written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'" (John 20:17)
* John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the
only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (Prayer said to
His Father, God.)
* 1 Cor 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in
heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came
and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through
whom all things came and through whom we live."
* 1 Tim 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and
men, the man Christ Jesus"
* James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the
demons believe that—and shudder."
SON AND FATHER
* Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the
angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
* John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth,
the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his
Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."
* John 14:28: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming
back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the
Father, for the Father is greater than I."
* John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for
those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may
be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be
in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given
them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I
in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the
world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
* Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn over all creation."
* 1 Cor 15:24-28: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the
kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority
and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his
feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put
everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been
put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who
put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself
will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God
may be all in all."
OLD TESTAMENT
* John 2:16: And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things
hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
* Acts 3:13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God
of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up...
* John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet
ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I
ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
* Daniel 7:13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like
the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient
of days, and they brought him near before him.
* Psalms 110:1: Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right
hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
ONTOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES
* John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.
* Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in God.
* Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.
* Mark 13:32 Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows.
* John 4:22 Jesus worships God.
* Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.
* 1 Cor 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to God.
* 1 Cor 11:1 Jesus' head is God.
* Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.
* Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.
* Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.
* Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.
* Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given authority by God.
* Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.
* Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.
* Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised [Jesus] from the
dead".
* Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34 Jesus is at the
right hand of God.
* 1 Tim 2:5 Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man.
* 1 Cor 15:24-28 God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus.
-+-
*found at: http://tinyurl.com/2ohl5n
-+-
AS BRIEF HISTORY OF TRINITY DOCTRINE
The growth of the doctrine of a triune God, is briefly but plainly, set
forth in the following facts:
A.D. 29 Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).
A.D. 57 Paul said, "To us there is but one God" (1 Cor. 8:6).
A.D. 96 Clement said, "Christ was sent by God".
A.D. 120 "Apostles' Creed": "I believe in God the Father".
A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.
A.D. 170 The word "Trias", appears first in Christian literature.
A.D. 200. "Trinitas" is first introduced by Tertullian.
A.D. 280 Origen, opposes prayers to Christ.
A.D. 260 Sabellius: "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the
same God".
A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.
A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" afflrms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".
A.D. 370 Doxology composed.
A.D. 381. Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".
A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't
worship the Trinity.
-+-
YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY
But what you DO need is to believe every Word God gave to describe Him
Self, His Spirit and His Son to His People.
A Scriptural Doctrine of God
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
Glenn
His witness
--
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
Note, the site at xprt.net will close 1Sept07 and open as
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.

User: "Jack Baun"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	07 Aug 2007 03:48:23 AM

"Glenn" <gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote in message
news:f98e6301dov@enews1.newsguy.com...

Why You Don't Need the Doctrine of the Trinity

1.) The trinity doctrine teaches that God the Father is God.
Jesus said that His Father, God the Father, is both His Father and
His God. John 20:17
There is no scripture which defines or describes God as a triune Being.

Therefore, since the Bible teaches that God the Father is God, then we
don't need the trinity doctrine.

2.) The trinity doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit is God
The Bible teaches that the Spirit of God is God.
Jesus said, "God is a Spirit." John 4:24 [KJV] Therefore, God is
Spirit, the Spirit of God is God.

There is no scripture which states that the Spirit of God is a
persona of a multiple persona Being. God the Father and the Spirit of
God IS God, the same unique individual Being.

Therefore, since the Bible teaches that the Spirit of God IS God, then
you don't need the trinity doctrine.

3.) The doctrine of the trinity teaches the Jesus is God
The Bible teaches that Jesus is God.
John 20:28, Ps 110:1-2, Mat 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28.

There is no scripture which defines or describes or states that
Jesus is a persona of a multiple personality being.

Therefore, since the Bible teaches that Jesus is God, then you don't
need trinity doctrine.

4.) The trinity doctrine teaches the Deity of Christ
The Bible teaches the Deity of Christ
Jesus was born ("Conceived") of woman, therefore His flesh is the
same essence and nature as His mother and the "Son of Man(kind)" is/was
Human.

Jesus was begotten ("sired", "fathered") by God the Father,
therefore his Spirit/Soul is the same Essence and Nature as His Father,
and the "Son of God" is Divine, Eternal Spirit. Luke 1:32-35.

Jesus the Child of Mary and God, and the Soul/Spirit of Christ, is
one unique individual Being.

Therefore, since the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is Deity, then you
don't need trinity doctrine.

5) Jesus did not correct Peter's Confession
"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Mat 16:16

Jesus did not correct Martha's Confession
"Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which
should come into the world." John 11:27.

Therefore, since the Bible teaches that both Martha's and Peter's
confession was acceptable to Christ, then you don't need the trinity
doctrine.

You Don't Need Trinity Doctrine Because It Contradicts Scripture

ONE GOD
* Matt 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is
written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'" (John 20:17)

* John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the
only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (Prayer said to
His Father, God.)

* 1 Cor 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in
heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came
and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through
whom all things came and through whom we live."

* 1 Tim 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and
men, the man Christ Jesus"

* James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the
demons believe that—and shudder."

SON AND FATHER
* Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the
angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

* John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth,
the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his
Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

* John 14:28: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming
back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the
Father, for the Father is greater than I."

* John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for
those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may
be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be
in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given
them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I
in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the
world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved
me."

* Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn over all creation."

* 1 Cor 15:24-28: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the
kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority
and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his
feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put
everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been
put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who
put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself
will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God
may be all in all."

OLD TESTAMENT
* John 2:16: And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things
hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

* Acts 3:13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God
of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up...

* John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet
ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I
ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

* Daniel 7:13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like
the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient
of days, and they brought him near before him.

* Psalms 110:1: Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right
hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

ONTOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES
* John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.

* Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in God.

* Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.

* Mark 13:32 Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows.

* John 4:22 Jesus worships God.

* Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.

* 1 Cor 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to God.

* 1 Cor 11:1 Jesus' head is God.

* Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.

* Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.

* Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.

* Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.

* Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given authority by God.

* Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.

* Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.

* Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised [Jesus] from the
dead".

* Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34 Jesus is at the
right hand of God.

* 1 Tim 2:5 Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and
man.

* 1 Cor 15:24-28 God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus.

-+-
*found at: http://tinyurl.com/2ohl5n
-+-

AS BRIEF HISTORY OF TRINITY DOCTRINE

The growth of the doctrine of a triune God, is briefly but plainly, set
forth in the following facts:

A.D. 29 Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).

A.D. 57 Paul said, "To us there is but one God" (1 Cor. 8:6).

A.D. 96 Clement said, "Christ was sent by God".

A.D. 120 "Apostles' Creed": "I believe in God the Father".

A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.

A.D. 170 The word "Trias", appears first in Christian literature.

A.D. 200. "Trinitas" is first introduced by Tertullian.

A.D. 280 Origen, opposes prayers to Christ.

A.D. 260 Sabellius: "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the
same God".

A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.

A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" afflrms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".

A.D. 370 Doxology composed.

A.D. 381. Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".

A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't
worship the Trinity.

-+-

YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY

But what you DO need is to believe every Word God gave to describe Him
Self, His Spirit and His Son to His People.

A Scriptural Doctrine of God
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev

Glenn
His witness

Hi Glenn, Welcome back.

In point three of your message you said Mat 28:18 was proof Jesus was
God.....it says All power was given to him.....but why would he need
anything given to him if he was God ? and who was this that gave him power
to act like God ? I dont like the trinity doctrin myself but still look at
Jesus as the Som of God.
Love , Jack
.

User: " ::: vera :::"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	07 Aug 2007 07:12:46 PM

In news:13bgck2qn5u2mc8@corp.supernews.com,
Jack Baun <bluejay@gwis.com> typed:

In point three of your message you said Mat 28:18 was proof Jesus was
God.....it says All power was given to him.....but why would he need
anything given to him if he was God ?

The Father and the Son are two distinctive beings, yet three in ONE GOD
in unity with the Joly Spirit. They interact. They are in a
relationship. The Father tells the Son what to do; the Son obeys the
Father - even into death.

and who was this that gave him
power to act like God ?

Not "like" God, but rather "as" God... The Father did - to glorify the
Son.

I dont like the trinity doctrin myself but
still look at Jesus as the Som of God.

It is not a question of liking it. It is a good concept that describes
God as best as possible.
His love,
::
::: vera :::
::
::
::
() ... who died with Christ
|| () into a new and eternal life.
|| ()
||
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
.

User: "RedFox"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	08 Aug 2007 05:40:52 PM

In article <5hsg41F3m5augU1@mid.individual.net>, " ::: vera :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> wrote:

In news:13bgck2qn5u2mc8@corp.supernews.com,
Jack Baun <bluejay@gwis.com> typed:

In point three of your message you said Mat 28:18 was proof Jesus was
God.....it says All power was given to him.....but why would he need
anything given to him if he was God ?

and who was this that gave him
power to act like God ?

Not "like" God, but rather "as" God... The Father did - to glorify the
Son.

Have you any idea just how thoroughly stupid this sentence looks in
English to anyone not indocrinated into the Acceptance of hahfallotin'
Christian drivel
The statement is meaningless

I dont like the trinity doctrin myself but
still look at Jesus as the Som of God.

It is not a question of liking it. It is a good concept that describes
God as best as possible.

I earnestly doubt it
It is so full of crap it was the primary cause of the Islamic monotheistic
breakaway
.

User: " ::: vera :::"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	08 Aug 2007 06:23:19 PM

In news:Jesse-0908070840520001@192.168.0.3,
RedFox <Jesse@StJoseph.com> typed:

In article <5hsg41F3m5augU1@mid.individual.net>, " ::: vera :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> wrote:

In news:13bgck2qn5u2mc8@corp.supernews.com,
Jack Baun <bluejay@gwis.com> typed:

In point three of your message you said Mat 28:18 was proof Jesus
was God.....it says All power was given to him.....but why would he
need anything given to him if he was God ?

The Father and the Son are two distinctive beings, yet three in ONE
GOD in unity with the Joly Spirit. They interact. They are in a
relationship. The Father tells the Son what to do; the Son obeys the
Father - even into death.

and who was this that gave him
power to act like God ?

Not "like" God, but rather "as" God... The Father did - to glorify
the Son.

Have you any idea just how thoroughly stupid this sentence looks in
English to anyone not indocrinated into the Acceptance of hahfallotin'
Christian drivel

The statement is meaningless

Well, you have all the right of this world to believe whatever you
please, but God has revealed His secret to us Christians through the
Holy Spirit, which is not of this world. The Holy Ghost of God really
knows everything. The origin of what we have to tell people like you
does not come from what humans know or from their intelligent
conclusions, but it is given to us by the Holy Spirit. So only those who
are led by God's Spirit will understand God's secrets. The normal man
cannot grasp wit his natural means what God says. All we have to say is
nonsense to him, because only God's Spirit reveals God's secrets.

I dont like the trinity doctrin myself but
still look at Jesus as the Som of God.

It is not a question of liking it. It is a good concept that
describes God as best as possible.

I earnestly doubt it

It is so full of crap it was the primary cause of the Islamic
monotheistic breakaway

See my answer above...
And Muhammed slaughtered thousands of people who did not believe as he
did right away, while my God died for me...
--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
.

User: "RedFox"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	08 Aug 2007 11:48:43 PM

In article <5hv1jaF3keuh6U1@mid.individual.net>, " ::: vera :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> wrote:

In news:Jesse-0908070840520001@192.168.0.3,
RedFox <Jesse@StJoseph.com> typed:

In article <5hsg41F3m5augU1@mid.individual.net>, " ::: vera :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> wrote:

In news:13bgck2qn5u2mc8@corp.supernews.com,
Jack Baun <bluejay@gwis.com> typed:

In point three of your message you said Mat 28:18 was proof Jesus
was God.....it says All power was given to him.....but why would he
need anything given to him if he was God ?

The Father and the Son are two distinctive beings, yet three in ONE
GOD in unity with the Joly Spirit. They interact. They are in a
relationship. The Father tells the Son what to do; the Son obeys the
Father - even into death.

and who was this that gave him
power to act like God ?

Not "like" God, but rather "as" God... The Father did - to glorify
the Son.

Have you any idea just how thoroughly stupid this sentence looks in
English to anyone not indocrinated into the Acceptance of hahfallotin'
Christian drivel

The statement is meaningless

Well, you have all the right of this world to believe whatever you
please, but God has revealed His secret to us Christians through the
Holy Spirit, which is not of this world.

Oh codswallop Vera - superstitious codswallop. There is no secret except
perhaps "that there is no secret" You have nothing to offer but
speculation which you try to validate by screaming "heresy" if anyone dare
exercise his God given right to perceive differently
Most Germans have learnt in the years since the second world war - what on
earth happened to you? - it is as if you missed high school Vera

The Holy Ghost of God really
knows everything.

I'd say he has the edge on you Vera!
The origin of what we have to tell people like you

does not come from what humans know or from their intelligent
conclusions, but it is given to us by the Holy Spirit.

This is the Nazi Holy Grail fantasy - you are still stuck in the Third
Reich "Parsifal" fantasy
This won't do Vera - it simply won't do!
So only those who

are led by God's Spirit will understand God's secrets.

This is the same -"Adolf Hitler is our Holy Ghost" nonsense that Josef
Goebbels put out. Have you forgotten the bombsite?- The Trummelfrauen
trying to help put it all back together?
The normal man

cannot grasp wit his natural means what God says. All we have to say is
nonsense to him, because only God's Spirit reveals God's secrets.

Leage of German Maidens perhaps - did someone in your family get a gold
sash perhaps?

And Muhammed slaughtered thousands of people who did not believe as he
did right away, while my God died for me...

And your Weltanshauung brought about the deaths of around 100 million
For shame Vera
this spiritual elitism and esotericism won't do
It is the core of Nazism
And nothing more
.

User: "RedFox"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	09 Aug 2007 12:06:59 AM

In article <5hv1jaF3keuh6U1@mid.individual.net>, " ::: vera :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> wrote:

QUOTE from an article written in 2004

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THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT AND THE RISE OF AMERICAN FASCISM
By -- CHRIS HEDGES
15 Nov 2004
Dr. James Luther Adams, my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School,
told us that when we were his age, he was then close to 80, we would all
be fighting the "Christian fascists."
The warning, given to me 25 years ago, came at the moment Pat Robertson
and other radio and televangelists began speaking about a new political
religion that would direct its efforts at taking control of all
institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government. Its
stated goal was to use the United States to create a global, Christian
empire. It was hard, at the time, to take such fantastic rhetoric
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it. But Adams warned us against the blindness caused by intellectual
snobbery. The Nazis, he said, were not going to return with swastikas and
brown shirts. Their ideological inheritors had found a mask for fascism in
the pages of the Bible.
He was not a man to use the word fascist lightly. He was in Germany in
1935 and 1936 and worked with the underground anti-Nazi church, known as
The Confessing Church, led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Adams was eventually
detained and interrogated by the Gestapo, who suggested he might want to
consider returning to the United States . It was a suggestion he followed.
He left on a night train with framed portraits of Adolph Hitler placed
over the contents inside his suitcase to hide the rolls of home movie film
he took of the so-called German Christian Church, which was pro-Nazi, and
the few individuals who defied them, including the theologians Karl Barth
and Albert Schweitzer. The ruse worked when the border police lifted the
top of the suitcases, saw the portraits of the Fuhrer and closed them up
again. I watched hours of the grainy black and white films as he narrated
in his apartment in Cambridge.
He saw in the Christian Right, long before we did, disturbing similarities
with the German Christian Church and the Nazi Party, similarities that he
said would, in the event of prolonged social instability or a national
crisis, see American fascists, under the guise of religion, rise to
dismantle the open society. He despaired of liberals, who he said, as in
Nazi Germany, mouthed silly platitudes about dialogue and inclusiveness
that made them ineffectual and impotent. Liberals, he said, did not
understand the power and allure of evil nor the cold reality of how the
world worked. The current hand wringing by Democrats in the wake of the
election, with many asking how they can reach out to a movement whose
leaders brand them "demonic" and "satanic," would not have surprised
Adams. Like Bonhoeffer, he did not believe that those who would fight
effectively in coming times of turmoil, a fight that for him was an
integral part of the Biblical message, would come from the church or the
liberal, secular elite.
His critique of the prominent research universities, along with the media,
was no less withering. These institutions, self-absorbed, compromised by
their close relationship with government and corporations, given enough of
the pie to be complacent, were unwilling to deal with the fundamental
moral questions and inequities of the age. They had no stomach for a
battle that might cost them their prestige and comfort. He told me that if
the Nazis took over America "60 percent of the Harvard faculty would begin
their lectures with the Nazi salute." This too was not an abstraction. He
had watched academics at the University of Heidelberg, including the
philosopher Martin Heidegger, raise their arms stiffly to students before
class.
Two decades later, even in the face of the growing reach of the Christian
Right, his prediction seems apocalyptic. And yet the powerbrokers in the
Christian Right have moved from the fringes of society to the floor of the
House of Representatives and the Senate. Christian fundamentalists now
hold a majority of seats in 36 percent of all Republican Party state
committees, or 18 of 50 states, along with large minorities in 81 percent
of the rest of the states. Forty-five Senators and 186 members of the
House of Representatives earned between an 80 to100 percent approval
ratings from the three most influential Christian Right advocacy groups -
The Christian Coalition, Eagle Forum, and Family Resource Council. Tom
Coburn, the new senator from Oklahoma, has included in his campaign to end
abortion: a call to impose the death penalty on doctors that carry out
abortions once the ban goes into place. Another new senator, John Thune,
believes in Creationism. Jim DeMint, the new senator elected from South
Carolina, wants to ban single mothers from teaching in schools. The
Election Day exit polls found that 22 percent of voters identified
themselves as evangelical Christians and Bush won 77 percent of their
vote. The polls found that a plurality of voters said that the most
important issue in the campaign had been "moral values."
President Bush must further these important objectives, including the
march to turn education and social welfare over to the churches with his
faith-based initiative, as well as chip away at the wall between church
and state with his judicial appointments, if he does not want to face a
revolt within his core constituency.
Jim Dobson, the head of Focus on the Family, who held weekly telephone
conversations with Karl Rove during the campaign, has put the President on
notice. He told ABC's "This Week" that "this president has two years, or
more broadly the Republican Party has two years, to implement these
policies, or certainly four, or I believe they'll pay a price in the next
election."
Bush may turn out to be a transition figure, our version of Otto von
Bismarck. Bismarck used "values" to energize his base at the end of the
19th century and launched "Kulturkampt," the word from which we get
"culture wars," against Catholics and Jews. Bismarck 's attacks split the
country, made the discrediting of whole segments of the society an
acceptable part of the civil discourse and paved the way for the more
virulent racism of the Nazis. This, I suspect, will be George Bush's
contribution to our democracy.
DOMINIONISTS AND RECONSTRUCTIONISTS
The Reconstructionist movement, founded in 1973 by Rousas Rushdooney, is
the intellectual foundation for the most politically active element within
the Christian Right. Rushdooney's 1,600 page three-volume work, Institutes
of Biblical Law, argued that American society should be governed according
to the Biblical precepts in the Ten Commandments. He wrote that the elect,
like Adam and Noah, were given dominion over the earth by God and must
subdue the earth, along with all non-believers, so the Messiah could
return.
This was a radically new interpretation for many in the evangelical
movement. The Messiah, it was traditionally taught, would return in an
event called "the Rapture" where there would be wars and chaos. The
non-believers would be tormented and killed and the elect would be lifted
to heaven. The Rapture was not something that could be manipulated or
influenced, although believers often interpreted catastrophes and wars as
portents of the imminent Second Coming.
Rushdooney promoted an ideology that advocated violence to create the
Christian state. His ideology was the mirror image of Liberation Theology,
which came into vogue at about the same time. While the Liberation
Theologians crammed the Bible into the box of Marxism, Rushdooney crammed
it into the equally distorting box of classical fascism. This clash was
first played out in Latin America when I was there as a reporter two
decades ago. In El Salvador leftist priests endorsed and even traveled
with the rebel movements in Nicaragua and El Salvador, while Pat Robertson
and Jerry Falwell, along with conservative Latin American clerics, backed
the Contras fighting against the Sandinistas in Nicaragua and the
murderous military regimes in El Salvador, Guatemala, Chile and Argentina.
The Institutes of Biblical Law called for a Christian society that was
harsh, unforgiving and violent. Offenses such as adultery, witchcraft,
blasphemy and homosexuality, merited the death penalty. The world was to
be subdued and ruled by a Christian United States. Rushdooney dismissed
the number of 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust as an inflated figure
and his theories on race echoed Nazi Eugenics.
"The white man has behind him centuries of Christian culture and the
discipline and selective breeding this faith requires...," he wrote. "The
Negro is a product of a radically different past, and his heredity has
been governed by radically different considerations."
"The background of Negro culture is African and magic, and the purposes of
the magic are control and power over God, man, nature, and society.
Voodoo, or magic, was the religion and life of American Negroes. Voodoo
songs underlie jazz, and old voodoo, with its power goal, has been merely
replaced with revolutionary voodoo, a modernized power drive." (see The
Religious Right , a publication of the ADL, pg. 124.)
Rushdooney was deeply antagonistic to the federal government. He believed
the federal government should concern itself with little more than
national defense. Education and social welfare should be handed over to
the churches. Biblical law must replace the secular legal code. This
ideology remains at the heart of the movement. It is being enacted through
school vouchers, with federal dollars now going into Christian schools,
and the assault against the federal agencies that deal with poverty and
human services. The Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives is
currently channeling millions in federal funds to groups such Pat
Robertson's Operation Blessing , and National Right to Life, as well as to
fundamentalist religious charity organizations and programs promoting
sexual abstinence.
Rushdooney laid the groundwork for a new way of thinking about political
involvement. The Christian state would come about not only through signs
and wonders, as those who believed in the rapture believed, but also
through the establishment of the Christian nation. But he remained, even
within the Christian Right, a deeply controversial figure.
Dr. Tony Evans, the minister of a Dallas church and the founder of Promise
Keepers, articulated Rushdooney's extremism in a more palatable form. He
called on believers, often during emotional gatherings at football
stadiums, to commit to Christ and exercise power within the society as
agents of Christ. He also called for a Christian state. But he did not
advocate the return of slavery, as Rushdooney did, nor list a string of
offenses such as adultery punishable by death, nor did he espouse the
Nazi-like race theories. It was through Evans, who was a spiritual mentor
to George Bush that Dominionism came to dominate the politically active
wing of the Christian Right.The religious utterances from political
leaders such as George Bush, Tom Delay, Pat Robertson and Zell Miller are
only understandable in light of Rushdooney and Dominionism. These leaders
believe that God has selected them to battle the forces of evil, embodied
in "secular humanism," to create a Christian nation. Pat Robertson
frequently tells believers "our aim is to gain dominion over society."
Delay has told supporters, such as at a gathering two years ago at the
First Baptist Church in Pearland, Texas , "He [God] is using me, all the
time, everywhere, to stand up for biblical worldview in everything I do
and everywhere I am. He is training me, He is working with me." Delay went
on to tell followers "If we stay inside the church, the culture won't
change."
Pat Robertson, who changed the name of his university to Regent
University, says he is training his students to rule when the Christian
regents take power, part of the reign leading to the return of Christ.
Robertson resigned as the head of the Christian Coalition when Bush took
office, a sign many took to signal the ascendancy of the first regent.
This battle is not rhetorical but one that followers are told will
ultimately involve violence. And the enemy is clearly defined and marked
for destruction.
"Secular Humanists," the popular Christian Right theologian Francis
Schaeffer wrote in one of numerous diatribes, "are the greatest threat to
Christianity the world has ever known."
One of the most enlightening books that exposes the ultimate goals of the
movement is America's Providential History, the standard textbook used in
many Christian schools and a staple of the Christian home schooling
movement. It sites Genesis 26, which calls for mankind to "have dominnion
over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, over the cattle and
over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth"
as evidence that the Bible calls for "Bible believing Christians" to take
dominion of America.
"When God brings Noah through the flood to a new earth, He reestablished
the Dominion Mandate but now delegates to man the responsibility for
governing other men." (page 19). The authors write that God has called
the United States to become "the first truly Christian nation" (page 184)
and "make disciples of all nations." The book denounces income tax as
"idolatry," property tax as "theft" and calls for an abolish of
inheritance taxes in the chapter entitled Christian Economics. The loss of
such tax revenues will bring about the withering away of the federal
government and the empowerment of the authoritarian church, although this
is not explict in the text.
Rushdooney's son-in-law, Gary North, a popular writer and founder of the
Institute for Christian Economics, laid out the aims of the Christian
Right.
"So let's be blunt about it: We must use the doctrine of religious liberty
to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation
of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law,
no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get
busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order
which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God."
(Christianity and Civilization, Spring, 1982)
Dominionists have to operate, for now, in the contaminated environment of
the secular, liberal state. They have learned, therefore, to speak in
code. The code they use is the key to understanding the dichotomy of the
movement, one that has a public and a private face. In this they are no
different from the vanguard, as described by Lenin, or the Islamic
terrorists who shave off their beards, adopt western dress and watch
pay-for-view pornographic movies in their hotel rooms the night before
hijacking a plane for a suicide attack.
Joan Bokaer, the Director of Theocracy Watch, a project of the Center for
Religion, Ethics and Social Policy at Cornell University , who runs the
encyclopedic web site theocracywatch.org, was on a speaking tour a few
years ago in Iowa. She obtained a copy of a memo Pat Robertson handed out
to followers at the Iowa Republican County Caucus. It was titled, "How to
Participate in a Political Party" and read:
"Rule the world for God."
"Give the impression that you are there to work for the party, not push an
ideology.
"Hide your strength.
"Don't flaunt your Christianity.
"Christians need to take leadership positions. Party officers control
political parties and so it is very important that mature Christians have
a majority of leadership whenever possible, God willing."
President Bush sends frequent coded messages to the faithful. In his
address to the nation on the night of September 11, for example, he lifted
a line directly from the Gospel of John when he said "And the light shines
in the darkness, and the darkness will not overcome it." He often uses the
sentence "when every child is welcomed in life and protected in law,"
words taken directly from a pro-life manifesto entitled "A Statement of
Pro-Life Principle and Concern." He quotes from hymns, prayers, tracts and
Biblical passages without attribution. These phrases reassure the elect.
They are lost on the uninitiated.
CHRIST THE AVENGER
The Christian Right finds its ideological justification in a narrow
segment of the Gospel, in particular the letters of the Apostle Paul,
especially the story of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus in the
Book of Acts. It draws heavily from the book of Revelations and the Gospel
of John. These books share an apocalyptic theology. The Book of
Revelations is the only time in the Gospels where Jesus sanctions
violence, offering up a vision of Christ as the head of a great and
murderous army of heavenly avengers. Martin Luther found the God portrayed
in Revelations so hateful and cruel he put the book in the appendix of his
German translation of the Bible.
These books rarely speak about Christ's message of love, forgiveness and
compassion. They focus on the doom and destruction that will befall
unbelievers and the urgent need for personal salvation. The world is
divided between good and evil, between those who act as agents of God and
those who act as agents of Satan. The Jesus of the other three Gospels,
the Jesus who turned the other cheek and embraced his enemies, an idea
that was radical and startling in the ancient Roman world, is purged in
the narrative selected by the Christian Right.
The cult of masculinity pervades the ideology. Feminism and homosexuality
are social forces, believers are told, that have rendered the American
male physically and spiritually impotent. Jesus is portrayed as a man of
action, casting out demons, battling the Anti-Christ, attacking hypocrites
and castigating the corrupt. This cult of masculinity brings with it the
glorification of strength, violence and vengeance. It turns Christ into a
Rambo-like figure; indeed depictions of Jesus within the movement often
show a powerfully built man wielding a huge sword.
This image of Christ as warrior is appealing to many within the movement.
The loss of manufacturing jobs, lack of affordable health care, negligible
opportunities for education and poor job security has left many millions
of Americans locked out. This ideology is attractive because it offers
them the hope of power and revenge. It sanctifies their rage. It stokes
the paranoia about the outside world maintained through bizarre conspiracy
theories, many on display in Pat Robertson's book The New World Order. The
book is a xenophobic rant that includes vicious attacks against the United
Nations and numerous other international organizations. The abandonment of
the working class has been crucial to the success of the movement. Only by
reintegrating the working class into society through job creation, access
to good education and health care can the Christian Right be effectively
blunted. Revolutionary movements are built on the backs of an angry,
disenfranchised laboring class. This one is no exception.
The depictions of violence that will befall non-believers are detailed,
gruesome and brutal. It speaks to the rage many believers harbor and the
thirst for revenge. This, in large part, accounts for the huge sales of
the apocalyptic series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins. In their novel,
Glorious Appearing, based on LaHaye's interpretation of Biblical
Prophecies about the Second Coming, Christ eviscerates the flesh of
millions of non-believers with the mere sound of his voice. There are long
descriptions of horror, of how "the very words of the Lord had superheated
their blood, causing it to burst through their veins and skin." Eyes
disintegrate. Tongues melt. Flesh dissolves. The novel, part of The Left
Behind series, are the best selling adult novels in the country. They
preach holy war.
"Any teaching of peace prior to [Christ's] return is heresy." said
televangelist James Robison.
Natural disasters, terrorist attacks, instability in Israel and even the
fighting of Iraq are seen as signposts. The war in Iraq was predicted
according to believers in the 9th chapter of the Book of Revelations where
four angels "which are bound in the great river Euphrates will be released
to slay the third part of men." The march towards global war, even nuclear
war, is not to be feared but welcomed as the harbinger of the Second
Coming. And leading the avenging armies is an angry, violent Messiah who
dooms millions of non-believers to a horrible and painful death.
THE CORRUPTION OF SCIENCE AND LAW
The movement seeks the imprint of law and science. It must discredit the
rational disciplines that are the pillars of the Enlightenment to abolish
the liberal polity of the Enlightenment. This corruption of science and
law is vital in promoting the doctrine. Creationism, or "intelligent
design," like Eugenics for the Nazis, must be introduced into the
mainstream as a valid scientific discipline to destroy the discipline of
science itself. This is why the Christian Right is working to bring test
cases to ensure that school textbooks include "intelligent design" and
condemn gay marriage.
The drive by the Christian Right to include crackpot theories in
scientific or legal debate is part of the campaign to destroy
dispassionate and honest intellectual inquiry. Facts become
interchangeable with opinions. An understanding of reality is not to be
based on the elaborate gathering of facts and evidence. The ideology alone
is true. Facts that get in the way of the ideology can be altered. Lies,
in this worldview, become true. Hannah Arendt called this effort
"nihilistic relativism" although a better phrase might be collective
insanity.
The Christian Right has fought successfully to have Creationist books sold
in national park bookstores in the Grand Canyon, taught as a theory in
public schools in states like Alabama and Arkansas. "Intelligent design"
is promoted in Christian textbooks. All animal species, or at least their
progenitors, students read, fit on Noah's ark. The Grand Canyon was
created a few thousand years ago by the flood that lifted up Noah's ark,
not one billion years ago, as geologists have determined. The earth is
only a few thousand years old in line with the literal reading of Genesis.
This is not some quaint, homespun view of the world. It is an insidious
attempt to undermine rational scientific research and intellectual
inquiry.
Tom Delay, following the Columbine shootings, gave voice to this assault
when he said that the killings had taken place "because our school systems
teach children that they are nothing but glorified apes who have
evolutionized out of some primordial mud." (speech Delay gave in the House
on June 16, 1999 )
"What convinces masses are not facts," Hannah Arendt wrote in Origins of
Totalitarianism, "and not even invented facts, but only the consistency of
the system which they are presumably part. Repetition, somewhat overrated
in importance because of the common belief in the "masses" inferior
capacity to grasp and remember, is important because it convinces them of
consistency in time." (p.351)
There are more than 6 million elementary and secondary school students
attending private schools and 11.5 percent of these students attend
schools run by the Christian Right. These "Christian" schools saw an
increase of 46 percent in enrollment in the last decade. The 245,000
additional students accounted for 75 percent of the total rise in private
school enrollment.
THE LAUNCHING OF THE WAR
Adams told us to watch closely what the Christian Right did to
homosexuals. He has seen how the Nazis had used "values" to launch state
repression of opponents. Hitler, days after he took power in 1933, imposed
a ban on all homosexual and lesbian organizations. He ordered raids on
places where homosexuals gathered culminating with the ransacking of the
Institute for Sexual Science in Berlin . Thousands of volumes from the
institute's library were tossed into a bonfire. Adams said that
homosexuals would also be the first "deviants" singled out by the
Christian Right. We would be the next.
The ban on same sex marriages, passed by eleven states in the election,
was part of this march towards our door. A 1996 federal law already
defines marriage as between a man and a woman. All of the states with
ballot measures, with the exception of Oregon, had outlawed same sex
marriages, as do 27 other states. The bans, however, had to be passed,
believers were told, to thwart "activist judges" who wanted to overturn
them. The Christian family, even the nation, was under threat. The bans
served to widen the splits tearing apart the country. The attacks on
homosexuals handed to the foot soldiers of the Christian Right an easy
target. It gave them a taste of victory. It made them feel empowered. But
it is ominous for gays and for us.
All debates with the Christian Right are useless. We cannot reach this
movement. It does not want a dialogue. It cares nothing for rational
thought and discussion. It is not mollified because John Kerry prays or
Jimmy Carter teaches Sunday School. These naive attempts to reach out to a
movement bent on our destruction, to prove to them that we too have
"values," would be humorous if the stakes were not so deadly. They hate
us. They hate the liberal, enlightened world formed by the Constitution.
Our opinions do not count.
This movement will not stop until we are ruled by Biblical Law, an
authoritarian church intrudes in every aspect of our life, women stay at
home and rear children, gays agree to be cured, abortion is considered
murder, the press and the schools promote "positive" Christian values, the
federal government is gutted, war becomes our primary form of
communication with the rest of the world and recalcitrant non-believers
see their flesh eviscerated at the sound of the Messiah's voice.
The spark that could set it ablaze may be lying in the hands of an Islamic
terrorist cell, in the hands of the ideological twins of the Christian
Right. Another catastrophic terrorist attack could be our Reichstag fire,
the excuse used to begin the accelerated dismantling of our open society.
The ideology of the Christian Right is not one of love and compassion, the
central theme of Christ's message, but of violence and hatred. It has a
strong appeal to many in our society, but it is also aided by our
complacency. Let us not stand at the open city gates waiting passively and
meekly for the barbarians. They are coming. They are slouching rudely
towards Bethlehem. Let us, if nothing else, begin to call them by their
name.
Chris Hedges, a reporter for The New York Times, is the author of War Is a
Force That Gives Us Meaning . He holds a Master of Divinity from Harvard
Divinity School . His next book , Losing Moses on the Freeway: America 's
Broken Covenant With The Ten Commandments is published by The Free Press.
Note from Joan Bokaer - Chris refers to a memo I received in Iowa from Pat
Robertson's organization. The year was 1986 -- two years before his
presidential bid, and three years before the Christian Coalition was
formed.

.

User: "RedFox"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	09 Aug 2007 12:11:09 AM

In article <5hv1jaF3keuh6U1@mid.individual.net>, " ::: vera :::"
<veralein@lycos.com> wrote:

Quote
The Swastika and the Scimitar: Anti-Semitic paranoia is alive and well
among Muslims.
By Jonah Goldberg August 18, 2006
The Jews everywhere are ³the Muslim¹s bitter enemies,² said a prominent
Islamic leader. Throughout history, the ³irreconcilable enemy of Islam²
has conspired and schemed and ³oppressed and persecuted 40 million
Muslims,² he said. In Palestine, the Jews are establishing ³a base from
which to extend their power over neighboring Islamic countries.² And, he
proclaimed, ³This war, which was unleashed by the world Jewry,² has
provided ³Muslims the best opportunity to free themselves from these
instances of persecution and oppression.²
Sound like Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah? Or perhaps Iranian
president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Nope. It was the grand mufti of Jerusalem,
Haj Amin Husseini, in 1942. An ardent Nazi supporter, Husseini delivered
his speech at the opening of the Islamic Institute in Berlin, one day
after the Allies denounced the Nazis for ³carrying into effect Hitler¹s
oft-repeated intention to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe.²
Husseini¹s address was approved by Nazi foreign minister Joachim von
Ribbentrop, and Joseph Goebbels was in attendance. The Reich press office
widely distributed the comments.
President Bush undoubtedly didn¹t have any of this in mind when he dubbed
our enemies in the war on terror ³Islamic fascists.² But his comments ‹
analytically flawed as they may be ‹ added some much-needed moral clarity
to our current struggle. They also helped to illuminate a much-overlooked
point: Islamic fundamentalism and Nazism are historically and
intellectually linked. (When the Israelis caught Adolf Eichmann, an
architect of the Final Solution, a leading Saudi Arabian newspaper read:
³Arrest of Eichmann, who had the honor of killing 6 million Jews.²)
Perhaps unsurprisingly, Bush¹s remarks seem to have struck a nerve.
The Saudi government warned ³against hurling charges of terrorism and
fascism at Muslims without regard to the spotless history of Islamic
civilization.² Of course, no civilization is without sin, but it takes
particular chutzpah for the Saudis to preen, considering their
civilization is as spotless as a leopard.
Still, the point isn¹t to dredge up ancient history about Muslims and
Nazis. Many Swedes got along swimmingly with the Nazis but who worries
about the Swedes today? The Muslim world is another matter. Unlike the
Swedes, the similarities between Nazism and Islamic fascism are not all in
the past. In what may be the most important book on the Holocaust in a
generation, historian Jeffrey Herf explains why.
According to the standard Holocaust narrative, the Final Solution was the
product of ³hate² or racism or, often, both. Anti-Semitism became popular
in the 19th century; the Nazis expanded on it, constructing a
pseudo-scientific biological racism that saw the Jews as a ³cancer² on the
body politic and the Holocaust as an attempt to excise the tumor. Herf
does not so much debunk this version of history as cut through it.
In The Jewish Enemy: Nazi Propaganda During World War II and the
Holocaust, he concedes that hatred and racism were important, but he
argues that they don¹t explain Germany¹s unique efforts to destroy the
Jews. It¹s not as if no one hated the Jews until the 1930s.
The real answer isn¹t hate, but fear. Poring through miles of speeches,
private comments, journal entries, party memoranda and all 24,000 pages of
Goebbel¹s diaries, Herf concludes that the Nazis really believed that the
Jews ran the world and wanted to destroy Germany. They believed that Jews
controlled not only the Bolsheviks to the east but the capitalists to the
west. President Franklin D. Roosevelt was a mere pawn of his Jewish
friends and advisors. The British Parliament, Goebbels wrote in one diary
entry, was ³in reality a kind of Jewish stock exchange.² The
³Jewish-plutocratic enemy² was everywhere, benefiting from, and
responsible for, every piece of bad news for Germany. In fact, the Nazis
were sure that the Jews had declared war on Germany first, giving them no
choice but to respond to the Jewish campaign to ³exterminate the Germans.²
This paranoia led the Nazis to believe that rounding up millions of Jews
and gassing them was an act of self-defense.
What is so frightening is how similar this is to the sounds from the
Middle East today. Ahmadinejad ‹ dismissed by ³sophisticated² academics as
a blowhard ‹ calls the Holocaust a myth. Indeed, there is no Jewish
conspiracy theory too outlandish in the Muslim world. Huge numbers of
Muslims ‹ even 45 percent of British Muslims ‹ believe that the Jews were
behind 9/11. Theories that the Mossad is behind every bad headline, from
the Indonesian tsunami to bad soccer performances, are common on the Arab
street. According to Herf, this is only the second time the world has seen
this sort of radical anti-Semitic paranoia. And, again, too many in the
unspotless West are saying, ³They can¹t be serious.²
Tribune Media Services, Inc.
.

User: "Glenn"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	07 Aug 2007 10:54:26 AM

Jack Baun wrote:

"Glenn" <gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote in message
news:f98e6301dov@enews1.newsguy.com...

Why You Don't Need the Doctrine of the Trinity

1.) The trinity doctrine teaches that God the Father is God.
Jesus said that His Father, God the Father, is both His Father and
His God. John 20:17
There is no scripture which defines or describes God as a triune Being.

Therefore, since the Bible teaches that God the Father is God, then we
don't need the trinity doctrine.

2.) The trinity doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit is God
The Bible teaches that the Spirit of God is God.
Jesus said, "God is a Spirit." John 4:24 [KJV] Therefore, God is
Spirit, the Spirit of God is God.

There is no scripture which states that the Spirit of God is a
persona of a multiple persona Being. God the Father and the Spirit of
God IS God, the same unique individual Being.

Therefore, since the Bible teaches that the Spirit of God IS God, then
you don't need the trinity doctrine.

3.) The doctrine of the trinity teaches the Jesus is God
The Bible teaches that Jesus is God.
John 20:28, Ps 110:1-2, Mat 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28.

There is no scripture which defines or describes or states that
Jesus is a persona of a multiple personality being.

Therefore, since the Bible teaches that Jesus is God, then you don't
need trinity doctrine.

4.) The trinity doctrine teaches the Deity of Christ
The Bible teaches the Deity of Christ
Jesus was born ("Conceived") of woman, therefore His flesh is the
same essence and nature as His mother and the "Son of Man(kind)" is/was
Human.

Jesus was begotten ("sired", "fathered") by God the Father,
therefore his Spirit/Soul is the same Essence and Nature as His Father,
and the "Son of God" is Divine, Eternal Spirit. Luke 1:32-35.

Jesus the Child of Mary and God, and the Soul/Spirit of Christ, is
one unique individual Being.

Therefore, since the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is Deity, then you
don't need trinity doctrine.

5) Jesus did not correct Peter's Confession
"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Mat 16:16

Jesus did not correct Martha's Confession
"Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which
should come into the world." John 11:27.

Therefore, since the Bible teaches that both Martha's and Peter's
confession was acceptable to Christ, then you don't need the trinity
doctrine.

You Don't Need Trinity Doctrine Because It Contradicts Scripture

ONE GOD
* Matt 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is
written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'" (John 20:17)

* John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the
only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (Prayer said to
His Father, God.)

* 1 Cor 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in
heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came
and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through
whom all things came and through whom we live."

* 1 Tim 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and
men, the man Christ Jesus"

* James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the
demons believe thatâ€”and shudder."

SON AND FATHER
* Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the
angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

* John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth,
the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his
Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

* John 14:28: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming
back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the
Father, for the Father is greater than I."

* John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for
those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may
be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be
in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given
them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I
in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the
world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved
me."

* Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn over all creation."

* 1 Cor 15:24-28: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the
kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority
and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his
feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put
everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been
put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who
put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself
will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God
may be all in all."

OLD TESTAMENT
* John 2:16: And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things
hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

* Acts 3:13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God
of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up...

* John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet
ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I
ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

* Daniel 7:13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like
the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient
of days, and they brought him near before him.

* Psalms 110:1: Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right
hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

ONTOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES
* John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.

* Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in God.

* Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.

* Mark 13:32 Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows.

* John 4:22 Jesus worships God.

* Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.

* 1 Cor 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to God.

* 1 Cor 11:1 Jesus' head is God.

* Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.

* Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.

* Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.

* Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.

* Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given authority by God.

* Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.

* Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.

* Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised [Jesus] from the
dead".

* Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34 Jesus is at the
right hand of God.

* 1 Tim 2:5 Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and
man.

* 1 Cor 15:24-28 God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus.

-+-
*found at: http://tinyurl.com/2ohl5n
-+-

AS BRIEF HISTORY OF TRINITY DOCTRINE

The growth of the doctrine of a triune God, is briefly but plainly, set
forth in the following facts:

A.D. 29 Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).

A.D. 57 Paul said, "To us there is but one God" (1 Cor. 8:6).

A.D. 96 Clement said, "Christ was sent by God".

A.D. 120 "Apostles' Creed": "I believe in God the Father".

A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.

A.D. 170 The word "Trias", appears first in Christian literature.

A.D. 200. "Trinitas" is first introduced by Tertullian.

A.D. 280 Origen, opposes prayers to Christ.

A.D. 260 Sabellius: "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the
same God".

A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.

A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" afflrms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".

A.D. 370 Doxology composed.

A.D. 381. Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".

A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't
worship the Trinity.

-+-

YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY

But what you DO need is to believe every Word God gave to describe Him
Self, His Spirit and His Son to His People.

A Scriptural Doctrine of God
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev

Glenn
His witness

Hi Glenn, Welcome back.
In point three of your message you said Mat 28:18 was proof Jesus was
God.....it says All power was given to him.....but why would he need
anything given to him if he was God ?

Misuse of the TERM "God,"
The TERM "God" is used in two ways in Scripture:
1.) "God is a Spirit." John 4:24 KJV
In this statement Jesus is using the TERM "God" in the sense of "Being,
Type = Spirit."
2.) In Deu 6:4 the Holy Spirit uses the TERM "Lord" and "God" in the
sense of "Absolute Ruler" TYPE = Single," to state that God is NOT a
triune being. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Notice
that the Holy Spirit did not say "triune," He said "One."
3.) In Ps 110:1-2, Mat 28:18 and 1 Cor 15:24-28, Jesus is identified as
that Being with ALL Power and ALL Authority, and having been given Rule
of His People Israel.

and who was this that gave him power to act like God ?

God the Father Gave His Son ALL Power and ALL Authority to Reign as God.
Ps 110:1-2, Mat 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28.

I dont like the trinity doctrin myself but still look at
Jesus as the Som of God.
Love , Jack

Amen, Jack.
Yes, Jesus is the Son of God: Being begotten of God, then He is the same
Essence and Nature of His Father -- Since the Father is Eternal Spirit
(God) Being, then the Son is Eternal Spirit (God) Being.
Jesus is "God" by TWO DEFINITIONS! Jesus is (being type) God because He
is the Son of God, and Jesus is (Title of Authority) God because He has
been given to reign as God. Luke 1:32-35, Ps 110:1-2, Mat 28, 1 Cor
15:24-28.
Glenn
His witness
--
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
Note, the site at xprt.net will close 1Sept07 and open as
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.

User: "Mark T moi@herethereanderywhere59"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	06 Aug 2007 08:30:33 PM

"Glenn" wrote:

Why You Don't Need the Doctrine of the Trinity

Abraham (the Father of Faith) didn't require it.
Moses saw no need of it.
--
Then God spoke all these words. He said: 'I am Yahweh your God who brought
you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have NO
GODS (INCLUDING JESUS) EXCEPT ME.' - Exodus 20: 1-2
The prophets didn't believe it.
--
He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God ?
Micah 6:8 RSV
Jesus of Nazareth didn't believe it.
--
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God {YAHWEH NOT YAHWEH'S HUMAN MESSIAH]
with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is
the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your
neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments." Matthew
22:37-40
--
"I [Jesus] am ascending to MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, MY GOD AND YOUR GOD" -
John 20:17
Does God have a God?????
Peter didn't believe it.
--
" Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that GOD [YAHWEH]
has MADE him both Lord (BOSS) and Christ, this JESUS whom you crucified."
(Act 2:36)
Paul didn't believe it.
--
"God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
--
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES OF A CHRISTUS OBNOXIUM
.... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist:
'Firstly, a fundamentalist has a very strong emphasis on the inerrancy of
the Bible, and believes in the absence from it of any sort of error.
Two, a strong hostility to modern theology and to the method, results and
implications of modern critical study of the Bible.
And three, an assurance that those who do not share their religious
viewpoint are not really true Christians at all.'
Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
.

User: "Carl"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	07 Aug 2007 09:31:06 PM

The answers to the following questions give evidence that when taken in
totality, the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity:
1. Who does the Bible say is God?
The Father (Eph. 4:6)? Yes!
The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1,14; 20:28)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4)? Yes!
Or the one and only true God (Deut. 4:35)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit are all Jehovah God.
2. Who raised Jesus from the dead?
The Father (Romans 6:4)? Yes!
The Son (John 2:19-21; 10:17,18)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)? Yes!
Or God (Acts 3:26, 13:30, 17:30,31; 1 Thess. 1:9,10; Heb. 13:20)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God were responsible for raising Jesus from the
dead.
3. Who saves man?
a. Who REGENERATES man?
The Father (1 Peter 1:3)? Yes!
The Son (John 5:21, 4:14)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (John 3:6; Titus 3:5)? Yes!
Or God (1 John 3:9)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.
b. Who JUSTIFIES man?
The Father (Jer. 23:6, cf. 2 Cor. 5:19)? Yes!
The Son (Romans 5:9, 10:4; 2 Cor. 5:19-21)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:11; Gal. 5:5)? Yes!
Or God (Romans 4:6, 9:33)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for justifying man.
c. Who SANCTIFIES man?
The Father (Jude 1)? Yes!
The Son (Titus 2:14)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:2)? Yes!
Or God (Exodus 31:13)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.
d. Who propitiated God's just anger against man for his sins?
The Father (1 John 4:14; John 3:16, 17:5, 18:11)? Yes!
The Son (Matthew 26:28; John 1:29; 1 John 2:2)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Heb. 9:14)? Yes!
Or God (2 Cor. 5:1; Acts 20:28)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God had propitiated God's just anger against man for
his sins?
BIBLICAL RESULT: The Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.
Though some exalt human reason against the doctrine of the Trinity, saying
that it is "unreasonable," people who submit their minds to God's Word must
conclude that it is unreasonable NOT to believe in it.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.

User: "Glenn"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	07 Aug 2007 10:20:32 PM

Carl wrote:

The answers to the following questions give evidence that when taken in
totality, the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity:

1. Who does the Bible say is God?

What definition of the TERM "God" do you want to use?
Shall we use the trinitarian definition (God is type triune)?
Or, may we use the SCRIPTURAL Definition ?
a) John 4:24 KJV "God is Being Type Spirit."
b) God is Lord, King, Absolute Ruler, Ps 110:1-2, Mat 24:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28.

The Father (Eph. 4:6)? Yes!

God the Father is (Being Type Eternal Spirit) God.

The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1,14; 20:28)? Yes!

1) Jesus the Son of God is the Same Essence and Nature as His Father:
Eternal Spirit. The Father is (Being type) God, therefore the Son is
(Being Type) God.
2: God the Father gave ALL Authority and ALL Power to His Son and told
Him to Rule. Therefore the Son is (Title of Authority) God.

The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4)? Yes!

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. God the Father and the Spirit of
God is one single, unique, individual being.

Or the one and only true God (Deut. 4:35)? Yes!

"Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he
is God; there is none else beside him."
This scripture does NOT state "the one and only true God..."

BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit are all Jehovah God.

No, the Bible does not say that: THAT is what the Trinitarians say.

2. Who raised Jesus from the dead?
The Father (Romans 6:4)? Yes!
The Son (John 2:19-21; 10:17,18)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)? Yes!
Or God (Acts 3:26, 13:30, 17:30,31; 1 Thess. 1:9,10; Heb. 13:20)? Yes!

BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God were responsible for raising Jesus from the
dead.

No, the Bible does not say "that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit
in the unity as God..."
That God the Father and His Spirit, and the Son of God work together
does not make them a triune being.
Triune God doctrine is a conclusion not found IN Scripture.

3. Who saves man?
a. Who REGENERATES man?
The Father (1 Peter 1:3)? Yes!
The Son (John 5:21, 4:14)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (John 3:6; Titus 3:5)? Yes!
Or God (1 John 3:9)? Yes!

BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.

No, the Bible does not say "the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in
the unity as God...": THAT is the conclusion of the trinitarians.
That God the Father and His Spirit, and the Son of God work together
does not make them a triune being.

b. Who JUSTIFIES man?
The Father (Jer. 23:6, cf. 2 Cor. 5:19)? Yes!
The Son (Romans 5:9, 10:4; 2 Cor. 5:19-21)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:11; Gal. 5:5)? Yes!
Or God (Romans 4:6, 9:33)? Yes!

BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for justifying man.

No, the Bible does NOT say, says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God..." and it is basically dishonest to claim it
does.
That God the Father and His Spirit, and the Son of God work together
does not make them a triune being.

c. Who SANCTIFIES man?
The Father (Jude 1)? Yes!
The Son (Titus 2:14)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:2)? Yes!
Or God (Exodus 31:13)? Yes!

BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.

Dishonest claim! The Bible does NOT say "the Father, the Son and the
Holy Spirit in the unity as God..." THAT is a false statement!
That God the Father and His Spirit, and the Son of God work together
does not make them a triune being.

d. Who propitiated God's just anger against man for his sins?
The Father (1 John 4:14; John 3:16, 17:5, 18:11)? Yes!
The Son (Matthew 26:28; John 1:29; 1 John 2:2)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Heb. 9:14)? Yes!
Or God (2 Cor. 5:1; Acts 20:28)? Yes!

BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God had propitiated God's just anger against

man for

his sins?

BIBLICAL RESULT: The Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.

False: The Bible clearly reveals the Dishonesty of the trinitarians in
their effort to falsify God's Word in support of a false doctrine!
A Scriptural Doctrine of God
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
Glenn
His witness
--
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/ Note, the site at xprt.net will close
1Sept07 and open as www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little
Book"; Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	07 Aug 2007 10:47:05 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 20:20:32 -0700, Glenn <gamcclary@spiritone.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.

Carl wrote:

The answers to the following questions give evidence that when taken in
totality, the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity:

1. Who does the Bible say is God?

What definition of the TERM "God" do you want to use?

All powerful Creator. Lord of the Universe. Omniscient, Omnipotent,
Omnipresent being.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all 3 fit that definition.
And YOU, Glenn, are a pathological liar, and your father is Satan!
john w
snipped the Satanic lies
.

User: "RedFox"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	08 Aug 2007 05:50:28 PM

In article <13fib3tg1ffdqm32jekvofhkeb8bqe5mbv@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw<no>@yahoo.com> wrote:

And YOU, Glenn, are a pathological liar, and your father is Satan!

john w

and no doubt you have spotty bum
.

User: "RedFox"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	08 Aug 2007 05:47:41 PM

In article <f9b9tb$3i4$1@news.utelfla.com>, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:

The answers to the following questions give evidence that when taken in
totality, the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity:

It also teaches how to make a field latrine (Deuteronomy) and the virtue
of smashing babies heads in on the surface of rocks (Psalms). It further
teaches how to ejaculate on the ground to prevent conception (Genesis) and
the advantages of employing ethnic cleansing and genocide "in God's name"
Your point?
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	07 Aug 2007 05:33:44 AM

x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:30:33 +1000, "Mark T"
<moi@herethereanderywhere59> wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.

"Glenn" wrote:

Why You Don't Need the Doctrine of the Trinity

Abraham (the Father of Faith) didn't require it.

Not so! Abram was given the Holy Spirit and became AbraHam. (the "H"
connotes that he had received the Holy Spirit, as when Sara received
the Holy Spirit, she became SaraH.
Abraham knew both God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.

Moses saw no need of it.

Not true! God the Holy Spirit led the children of Israel in the
desert. God the Father spoke to Him MANY times.

--
Then God spoke all these words. He said: 'I am Yahweh your God who brought
you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have NO
GODS (INCLUDING JESUS) EXCEPT ME.' - Exodus 20: 1-2

Yahweh is just another name for "God."
And there was no mention of "Jesus" in the Old Testament because He
hadn't been born yet!

The prophets didn't believe it.

--
He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God ?
Micah 6:8 RSV

Jesus of Nazareth didn't believe it.

--
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God {YAHWEH NOT YAHWEH'S HUMAN MESSIAH]
with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is
the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your
neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments." Matthew
22:37-40

--
"I [Jesus] am ascending to MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, MY GOD AND YOUR GOD" -
John 20:17

Does God have a God?????

Peter didn't believe it.

--
" Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that GOD [YAHWEH]
has MADE him both Lord (BOSS) and Christ, this JESUS whom you crucified."
(Act 2:36)

Paul didn't believe it.
--
"God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"

--
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES OF A CHRISTUS OBNOXIUM

... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist:

'Firstly, a fundamentalist has a very strong emphasis on the inerrancy of
the Bible, and believes in the absence from it of any sort of error.

Two, a strong hostility to modern theology and to the method, results and
implications of modern critical study of the Bible.

And three, an assurance that those who do not share their religious
viewpoint are not really true Christians at all.'

Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178

User: "Mark T moi@herethereandeverywhere63"
Title: Re: WHY YOU DON'T NEED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY	07 Aug 2007 08:46:32 PM

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote:

*****!

Why You Don't Need the Doctrine of the Trinity

Abraham (the Father of Faith) didn't require it.

Not so! Abram was given the Holy Spirit and became AbraHam. (the "H"
connotes that he had received the Holy Spirit, as when Sara received
the Holy Spirit, she became SaraH.

Utter crap!

Then God spoke all these words. He said: 'I am Yahweh your God who
brought
you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have
NO
GODS (INCLUDING JESUS) EXCEPT ME.' - Exodus 20: 1-2

.....

there was no mention of "Jesus" in the Old Testament because He
hadn't been born yet!

Well ... DOH!!!!

Jesus of Nazareth didn't believe it.
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God {YAHWEH NOT YAHWEH'S
HUMAN MESSIAH] with all your heart and with all your soul and with all
your >> mind.' This is
the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your
neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments." Matthew
22:37-40
--
"I [Jesus] am ascending to MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, MY GOD >>AND YOUR
GOD" - John 20:17
Does God have a God?????

Peter didn't believe it.
" Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that GOD [YAHWEH]
has MADE him both Lord (BOSS) and Christ, this JESUS whom you crucified."
(Act 2:36)

Paul didn't believe it.
"God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
--
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES OF A CHRISTUS OBNOXIUM

... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist:

'Firstly, a fundamentalist has a very strong emphasis on the inerrancy of
the Bible, and believes in the absence from it of any sort of error.

Two, a strong hostility to modern theology and to the method, results and
implications of modern critical study of the Bible.

And three, an assurance that those who do not share their religious
viewpoint are not really true Christians at all.'

Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178

--
Fundies can kiss my left behind! {_l_}
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
.