| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Glenn" |
| Date: |
07 Aug 2007 07:47:28 PM |
| Object: |
Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)?
Jesus said: "Unless you believe I am He you shall die in your sins."
John 8:24
Who is the "He" to whom He is referring?
Trinitarians would pervert these words of Jesus, and make His words
mean, "unless you believe the doctrine of the trinity... you will die in
your sins."
The Trinitarians say:
"This is unfortunate because if you do not know who
Jesus is (who He REALLY is), then your faith is not
on the true foundation. This is not a light matter.
When you change who Jesus is, you by necessity pervert
the Gospel message."
I agree... When you change who Jesus IS, then you have perverted the Gospel.
Now the Question is, "Who is Jesus (really), and who is it that perverts
the Gospel message?"
FIRST:
What the Bible Teaches, Who is Jesus?
A) What did the Law and Prophets say about Jesus?
Jesus is descendant of Eve, through Abraham, Gen. 3:15, 12:3, 18:18.
Born in the Line of David, Psalms 89:3-4,
Born of a virgin, Isa. 7:14,9:6-7,
Born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2,
A forerunner would precede Him. Mal. 3:1.
He would preach in Galilee. Isa. 9:1-2.
He would be a Prophet, a preacher of deliverance. Deu. 18:15, Isa. 61:1-3.
He would be meek, and rejected. Isa. 42:2, 53:3.
And, He would be ordained a Priest after the order [type or kind] of
Melchizedek. Psalms 110:4.
B) Who does Jesus say He Is?
In Matthew and John there are about 59 references to "My Father."
He referred to God as "My God":
"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi,
Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me? [KJV] Mark 15:34
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my
Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my
Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. [KJV] John 20:17
He told John's messengers that He was the fulfillment of the prophecies,
"he who is to come." John 7:19-23,
CONFESSIONS OF PETER AND MARTHA
"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Mat 16:16
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that
believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever
liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
"She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the
Son of God, which should come into the world." John 11:25-27
There is no evidence that Jesus corrected Peter or Martha. Did Jesus
teach the doctrine of the trinity? No, there is no scripture of Jesus
referring to himself as a person of a multiple personality being, or to
His Father God as a triune being.
C) Who did the Apostles say Jesus is?
John 1:1-3 [Greek]
3788 2258 1722 746 4314 3588 2316
He was in beginning with *THE* God
John distinguished between God the Son and God the Father.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." John 20:28 KJV.
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet." 1 Cor 15:24-25
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus" [KJV] I Timothy 2:5
"And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of
sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." [KJV]
Hebrews 12:24
1 Cor 11:3 "The head of Christ is God."
Did the Apostles teach that Jesus is a member of a 'triune being'? No,
there is no reference to Jesus as a person of a multiple personality
being, or to His Father God as a triune being.
GIVEN ALL AUTHORITY, ALL POWER
"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make
thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength
out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies." Ps 110:1-2 Mat
28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28.
Since Jesus was given ALL Power and ALL Authority, then He was given
Power to walk on water, the heal the sick, AND to forgive sin.
Did Abraham, Moses, Isaiah or any Old Testament Prophet describe Jesus
as a "persona of a triune being"? No. Nowhere in the Old Testament is
God defined or described as a triune being.
In fact, Deu 6:4 states that the Lord, God, is one, not triune.
SECOND:
What Trinity Doctrine teaches
1) Who do the Trinitarians say Jesus is?
That Jesus is person of a multiple personality being.
That the Holy Spirit is a person of a multiple personality being.
That God the Father is a multiple personality being.
2) When did the doctrine of the trinity come into the Church? After
Ad325-388, and it has continued to be edited and modified, and there are
at least two major versions of it.
3) Who is it that "changes who Jesus is"?
The Trinitarians.
Pagan theology
A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.
A.D. 170 The word "Trias", appears first in Christian literature.
A.D. 200 "Trinitas" is first introduced by Tertullian.
A.D. 260 Sabellius: "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the
same God".
A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" affirms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".
A.D. 381 Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".
A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't
worship the Trinity.
CONCLUSION
Who is it that "changes who Jesus is"?
Since the Old testament Law and prophets do not teach that Israel knew
or worshiped a triune god,
And,
Since Jesus did not state or reveal that He was a person of a triune god,
And,
Since the Apostles did not teach the First Century Church the doctrine
of a triune god,
And,
Since the Apostles did not include the doctrine of a triune god in the
New Testament,
Therefore,
it is those who teach the doctrine of a pagan three headed god who
change who they believe Jesus is.
WHAT DO WE NEED TO BELIEVE?
As Jesus said, "unless you believe I am He," (John 8:24) "you will die
in your sin."
The "He" Jesus claimed to be is the Son of God as foretold in prophecy.
He claimed to be the Son of God as depicted in the Law of Moses,
writings of David and Solomon, and in the Law and Prophets.
If we read the Law, books of wisdom and the prophets, and believe that
Jesus of Nazareth is that Son of God, then we do, in fact, believe that
He is "He."
As Jesus told Martha, John 11:25-27) "I am the resurrection, and the
life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."
Martha answered, " I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God,
which should come into the world." Martha did not exhibit any knowledge
of a triune being. (In fact, triune gods were an abomination to the Jews.)
If we believe in this same Jesus, as confessed by Martha, as described
by the Old Testament, as described by the Apostles, then we have eternal
life.
A Scriptural Doctrine of God
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
Glenn
His witness
--
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
Note, the site at xprt.net will close 1Sept07 and open as
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.
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| User: "Sherwood" |
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| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? [ANTONIO L. SANTANA - MURDER - GULLEY - JABRIOL] |
19 Aug 2007 02:07:27 PM |
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"ResLight" <rday888@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:M03xi.35565$W45.6215@fe177.usenetserver.com...
--- snip ---
The Gulleys are the elderly people Antonio L. Santana/Jabriol a Jehovah's
Witness from Camden NJ wants murdered. He suggested suffocation, a driveby
shooting or slashing their throats. Is that the kind of people you want to
associate with? He now posts under other people's names and uses anonymous
remailers. He is known in two of the three Kingdom Halls in Camden NJ.
He is well known nym-shifting net stalker and homicidal sociopath:
Antonio L. Santana [jabriol]
Dark skin Purto Rican, YOB 1961
1064 Everett St.
Camden NJ USA
856-968-0004
He and his wife attend the Spanish Speaking congragation of
Jehovah's Witnesses in Camden NJ.
.
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
16 Aug 2007 08:20:18 PM |
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"ResLight" <rday888@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:M03xi.35565$W45.6215@fe177.usenetserver.com...
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover7@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:AdPwi.130$vU4.25@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
"ResLight" <rday888@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:1wFwi.25920$CW.110@fe195.usenetserver.com...
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover@email.com> wrote in message
news:iURvi.45629$Um6.31330@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
Malachi 4:1 - "For, behold, the day comes, it burns as a furnace; and
all>> the proud, and all who work wickedness, will be stubble; and the
day that
comes will burn them up," says Yahweh of Hosts, "that it shall leave
them
neither root nor branch.
He speaks here of the day of the Lord.
Actually, Yahweh of Hosts is speaking about the coming of the day of
Yahweh.
Which is for the day of the Lord.
Malachi 4:5 - Behold, I [Yahweh] will send you Elijah the prophet
before
the
great and terrible day of Yahweh comes.
The One speaking here is Yahweh. (Malachi 4:1) Are you saying that
Yahweh
was saying that he was going to send himself as his own prophet? It
should
be seen that adding the word "the prophet" that the reference is to the
individual spoken of in Kings and Chronicles, not to Yahweh Himself.
There is nothing in any of this that says that Jesus was claiming to be
his
God, Yahweh.
Unclear on the concept of God.
I have nothing to be unclear about. Jesus is not his God. Jesus
distinguishes himself from the only true God in John 17:1,3.
No, that's an example of your inability to conceive of the God of scripture.
When you conjure up a God that can only be in one place at a time, you are
unclear on the concept of God, and Jesus is He.
He didn't send Himself to meet with Moses?
I don't know of any scripture that says that Yahweh "sent himself" to meet
with Moses. Of course, in the broad sense, I suppose one could speak of
sending himself to the store, sending himself to work, etc., but I don't
know of any scripture that uses such terminology regarding the only Most
High, Yahweh.
That's the point. There is no scripture of His leaving heaven, yet there are
scriptures of His being here on earth.
Ex 15:17, 23:33, 25:8, 29:45
Yahweh sent his angel as his representative to Moses. The word to Moses
was
"through angels". -- Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2.
Is that supposed to erase the above scriptures?
He didn't send Himself to dwell between the cherubim?
I don't know of any scripture that says that Yahweh sent himself to dwell
between the cherubs.
Again that's the point. There are no scriptures saying He left heaven to be
here. See the above scriptures.
Of course, the entire being of Yahweh, whom the sky and whole earth
cannot
contain (1 Kings 8:27), was certainly not contained in the cloud between
the
cherubs, but a representation of God's glory was there.
The shekinah glory typically represented God's presence, the reality of
which is in heaven. -- Exodus 25:22; Leviticus 16:2; Hebrews 8:2,5; 9:5;
10:1.
Only the high priest was allowed in the Most Holy before the glory of God,
and the high priest thus offered in communion with God once a year for the
people. (Exodus 30:10; Leviticus 16:2-34; Hebrews 9:7) Jesus is
represented
by the high priest, and also as the sacrifice offered by the priest. Jesus
presents the offering of his body of flesh and blood to God in the
presence
of his God in heaven, the reality represented by the most holy. -- John
6:51; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 7:25; 9:24. See all of Hebrews 8,9,10.
"And no man hath
ascended up to heaven, if not he that came down from heaven, even the
Son
of
man which is in heaven" (John 3:13).
I am not sure why you are quoting this verse, not unless it is with the
thought that the Son of Man was in heaven and on earth at the same time,
although I am still not sure how this would relate to what is being
discussed.
The latter phrase "which is in heaven" appears to be a later addition, and
many translations do not have it. -- See New American Standard, English
Standard, Holman Christian Standard, New Living Translation, New Revised
Standard, Good News Translation, The Message translation, The Complete
Jewish Bible translation, New Century Version, God's Word Translation, The
Bible in Basic English, Today's New International, Emphasized Bible
translation, and many more.
It is missing from the Egyptian texts (Sinaiticus and Vaticanus), but it is
in the majority of the texts, and it wasn't te body which came down from
heaven.
If the latter part is genuine, it should be viewed as an added statement
by
John that at the time John was writing the Son of Man as ascended to
heaven.
No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the
Son
of Man (who is in heaven)
You seem to an anthromorphic image of
God.
Why do you go to the verse which contains the blindness instead of the
NT
verses which remove it?
The NT, of itself, does not presently remove the blindness for neither
Israel nor the world. To the world, the Bible is still a mystery. Its
sayings and parables are not understood.
Only those who symbolically have
ears to hear, and eyes to see, are able to have the blindness removed, and
that in varying degrees. The rest remain under the blinding influence of
Satan, as permitted by, and under the the direction of, Yahweh. -- Matthew
11:14,15; 13:1-23; 15:14; Mark 4:1-20; Luke 8:4-21; John 12:40; Romans
11:1-32; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 12:9.
It is not until the age to come, that the nations, the heathen, will no
longer be blinded. -- Revelation 20:1-3.
You're off on a tangent, for the the revelation of the first coming of the
Lord before the day of the Lord removes the blindness of Israel to His first
coming. He revealed what He would do as promised (Amos 3:7). And that
blindness would be revealede when the fullness of the gentiles had entered,
before the salvation of all of Israel. Rom 11:25.
NT scripture like: "Why then say the scribes that
Elijah must first come?" (Matt 17:10): "EL YH truly shall first come,
and
restore all things" (Matt 17:11): "For all the prophets and the law
prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is EL YH, which
was
for to come" (Matt 11:13-14): "he shall go before him in the spirit and
power of El YH" (Luke 1:17), the Spirit with which he was born: "he
shall
be
filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb" (Luke 1:15).
Matthew 17:11 - Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming
first and will restore all things.
Matthew 17:12 - But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they
did
not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man
is
also about to suffer at their hands."
I still fail to see anything in any of this that means that Jesus is his
God, Yahweh.
Not my problem.
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matk 10:15)
<)))))))><
Malachi's prophecy, the last message sent by Jehovah to Israel, seems to
have deeply impressed them -- especially the last two chapters, which
particularly refer to Messiah's coming, and to the special trials which
the
day of the Lord's presence would bring with it. (See Malachi 3:1-3, 13-18;
4:1-6.) Gathering from this that the testing would be peculiar, they took
comfort from the last verses quoted above, which promised that Elijah the
prophet, who had once converted the entire nation from the worship of Baal
back to the worship of God, would come again to prepare them, before this
severe testing time which Messiah's coming would bring.
This prophecy was not fulfilled at the first advent of our Lord -- neither
the portion which relates to Messiah nor that which refers to Elijah. The
reference of the prophecy is evidently to the second advent; to the coming
of the "Messenger of the Covenant" in glory and power; and to the testing
and great trouble of the Day of the Lord at that time. However, Christ's
presentation to typical Israel, and the great trouble which came upon them
as a nation when they rejected him, was, as God had foreseen and intended,
another shadow which further illustrated in many particulars the things
presented in this prophecy. John the Immerser, in the spirit of Elijah,
did
a work for Israel similar to that of the Elijah promised, but failed of
success; and, as a result, trouble (a curse) upon that nation followed.
The
real Elijah referred to by the prophet was to do a great work for the
whole
"earth," to prepare all mankind for the second advent; and he will for a
time also seemingly fail of success, and as a result the great time of
trouble (the curse) will smite the whole earth.
Since the coming of Elijah mentioned by the prophet is to be "before" this
"great and dreadful Day of Jehovah," it is important to show here that
Elijah has come. He did not, however, turn the hearts of the world to
childlikeness and to the [true] wisdom of the just; and therefore the
great
time of trouble comes, as God foresaw and foretold. In it, God will teach
mankind by severe and bitter experiences lessons they need to learn
thoroughly, to prepare them to gratefully accept the Christ, Jehovah's
Messenger of the New Covenant -- with all the just arrangements, laws,
etc.,
of that covenant.
The above is from a study presented in *Herald of Christ's Kingdom",
entitled "Elias Shall Come First":
http://www.heraldmag.org/archives/1956_12.htm#_Toc36375046
Then there is John's testimony. He is not the Messiah, he is not Elijah,
he
is not the Elijah-like alternative.
John 1:19-25
John the Baptist was not literally Elijah returned from the grace, nor was
he, as some claim, the reincarnation of Elijah. John, therefore, was right
in denying that he was Elijah.
Additionally, Jesus did say of John: If you (Israel) receive it, this one
is
[represents] Elijah, who is to come
Jesus' statement was conditional: If you receive it, this one is Elijah;
if
not, he is not Elijah. They did not receive it, hence John could
truthfully
say, "I am not.'" John the Baptist did not fullfil by any means all that
was
predicted respecting the antitypical Elijah and his ministries which would
be introductory to the Christ of glory. John was not the Elijah mentioned
by
the Prophet, and yet he did a work of Elijah to those amongst the Jews who
received his message.
See an online study on this
http://agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0092.htm
(the above was first published in 1889)
Nothing in any of this, however, means that Jesus is his Supreme Being,
the
only Most High, Yahweh, of whom Jesus is the Son. -- Mark 5:7; Luke 1:32;
8:28 (Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus, is the only Most High: Genesis
14:22; 2 Samuel 22:14; Psalm 7:17; Psalm 18:13; Psalm 47:2; Psalm 83:18;
97:9).
In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald
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| User: "ResLight" |
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| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
27 Aug 2007 07:24:19 PM |
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See my responses below
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover7@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:qJ6xi.233$LL7.94@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
"ResLight" <rday888@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:M03xi.35565$W45.6215@fe177.usenetserver.com...
Actually, Yahweh of Hosts is speaking about the coming of the day of
Yahweh.
Which is for the day of the Lord.
It is the day of Yahweh, who is the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
I have nothing to be unclear about. Jesus is not his God. Jesus
distinguishes himself from the only true God in John 17:1,3.
No, that's an example of your inability to conceive of the God of
scripture.
The only true God of the scriptures is the God and Father of Jesus. I have
no scriptural reason to conceive of the only true God outside of what is
revealed in the scriptures.
http://godandson.reslight.net/jesusnotyhwh.html
When you conjure up a God that can only be in one place at a time, you are
unclear on the concept of God, and Jesus is He.
It is the idea that Jesus is His Supreme Being that has to be conjured up,
added to, and read into the scriptures.
I don't know of any scripture that says that Yahweh "sent himself" to
meet
with Moses. Of course, in the broad sense, I suppose one could speak of
sending himself to the store, sending himself to work, etc., but I don't
know of any scripture that uses such terminology regarding the only Most
High, Yahweh.
That's the point. There is no scripture of His leaving heaven, yet there
are
scriptures of His being here on earth.
Ex 15:17, 23:33, 25:8, 29:45
Yahweh, whom neither the skies nor than earth can contain, can, of course,
make His presence known anywhere He wishes. This has nothing at all to do
with the idea that Jesus is his own God.
Exodus 15:17 - and Moses buildeth an altar, and calleth its name
Jehovah-Nissi. -- Young's Literal Translation.
The altar was not Jehovah, the name given to the altar was "Jehovah-Nissi",
meaning "Yahweh is our Banner." There is nothing in this scripture about
Yahweh being on the earth.
Exodus 23:33 - For my angel shall go before you, and bring you in to the
Amorite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Canaanite, the Hivite, and the
Jebusite; and I will cut them off.
Again, this speaks of Yahweh's angel, not Yahweh Himself. Of course, the
angel, being sent by Yahweh, does the works of Yahweh as the representative
of Yahweh.
Exodus 25:8 - Let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them.
This scripture does speak of Yahweh's dwelling amongst his people. What does
this mean? It certainly does not mean the entire being of Yahweh was
actually down on the earth. Thus Solomon asked: "But will God in very deed
dwell on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens can't contain
you; how much less this house that I have built!" (2 Kings 8:27; see also 2
Chronicles 2:6,18; Isaiah 66:1; Acts 7:48,49; 17:24) Thus, God's dwelling
with His people is not that he literally leaves his home in the heavens and
his total beings dwells on earth, but rather the terminololy is used both in
a representative and symbolic sense. God dwells with His people, that is He
is on their side, to support them, to guide and direct them, if they so
allow Him to do so.
Exodus 29:46 - They shall know that I am Yahweh their God, who brought them
forth out of the land of Egypt, that I might dwell among them: I am Yahweh
their God.
Numbers 35:34 - You shall not defile the land which you inhabit, in the
midst of which I dwell: for I, Yahweh, dwell in the midst of the children of
Israel.
Deuteronomy 14:23 - You shall eat before Yahweh your God, in the place which
he shall choose, to cause his name to dwell there, the tithe of your grain,
of your new wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and of
your flock; that you may learn to fear Yahweh your God always.
Deuteronomy 16:2 - You shall sacrifice the Passover to Yahweh your God, of
the flock and the herd, in the place which Yahweh shall choose, to cause his
name to dwell there.
Deuteronomy 16:6 - but at the place which Yahweh your God shall choose, to
cause his name to dwell in, there you shall sacrifice the Passover at even,
at the going down of the sun, at the season that you came forth out of
Egypt.
Deuteronomy 16:11 - and you shall rejoice before Yahweh your God, you, and
your son, and your daughter, and your man-servant, and your maid-servant,
and the Levite who is within your gates, and the sojourner, and the
fatherless, and the widow, who are in the midst of you, in the place which
Yahweh your God shall choose, to cause his name to dwell there.
2 Samuel 7:4 It happened the same night, that the word of Yahweh came to
Nathan, saying,
2 Samuel 7:5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus says Yahweh, Shall you build
me a house for me to dwell in?
2 Samuel 7:6 for I have not lived in a house since the day that I brought up
the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a
tent and in a tent.
2 Samuel 7:7 In all places in which I have walked with all the children of
Israel, spoke I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to
be shepherd of my people Israel, saying, Why have you not built me a house
of cedar?
2 Samuel 7:8 Now therefore thus shall you tell my servant David, Thus says
Yahweh of Hosts, I took you from the sheep pen, from following the sheep,
that you should be prince over my people, over Israel;
2 Samuel 7:9 and I have been with you wherever you went, and have cut off
all your enemies from before you; and I will make you a great name, like the
name of the great ones who are in the earth.
2 Samuel 7:10 I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant
them, that they may dwell in their own place, and be moved no more; neither
shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as at the first,
2 Samuel 7:11 and [as] from the day that I commanded judges to be over my
people Israel; and I will cause you to rest from all your enemies. Moreover
Yahweh tells you that Yahweh will make you a house.
2 Samuel 7:12 When your days are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your
fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall proceed out of your
bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the
throne of his kingdom forever.
The following scriptures are taken from the King James Version of the Bible
(The Holy Name, Yahweh, supplied by us at the appropriate places where it
appears in the Hebrew):
Exodus 10:10: And he said unto them, Let [Yahweh] be so with you, as I will
let you go, and your little ones: look to it; for evil is before you.
Deuteronomy 20:4 For [Yahweh] your God is he that goeth with you, to fight
for you against your enemies, to save you.
Numbers 14:9: Only rebel not ye against [Yahweh], neither fear ye the people
of the land; for they are bread for us: their defence is departed from them,
and [Yahweh] is with us: fear them not.
Numbers 14:43: For the Amalekites and the Canaanites are there before you,
and ye shall fall by the sword: because ye are turned away from [Yahweh],
therefore [Yahweh] will not be with you.
Judges 6:13: And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if [Yahweh] be with us,
why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our
fathers told us of, saying, Did not [Yahweh] bring us up from Egypt? but now
[Yahweh] hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the
Midianites.
Ruth 2:4: And, behold, Boaz came from Bethlehem, and said unto the reapers,
[Yahweh] be with you. And they answered him, [Yahweh] bless thee.
1 Chronicles 22:17,18: David also commanded all the princes of Israel to
help Solomon his son, saying, Is not [Yahweh] your God with you? and hath he
not given you rest on every side? for he hath given the inhabitants of the
land into mine hand; and the land is subdued before [Yahweh], and before his
people.
2 Chronicles 13:12: And, behold, God himself is with us for our captain, and
his priests with sounding trumpets to cry alarm against you. O children of
Israel, fight ye not against the [Yahweh] God of your fathers; for ye shall
not prosper.
2 Chronicles 15:2: And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye
me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; [Yahweh] is with you, while ye be with
him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he
will forsake you.
2 Chronicles 20:17: Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set
yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of [Yahweh] with you, O
Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against
them: for [Yahweh] will be with you.
2 Chronicles 32:8: With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is [Yahweh] our
God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves
upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah.
2 Kings 8:57: [Yahweh] our God be with us, as he was with our fathers: let
him not leave us, nor forsake us:
Isaiah 8:10: Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the
word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
Psalm 46:7: [Yahweh] of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge.
Selah.
Psalm 46:11: [Yahweh] of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge.
Selah.
Jeremiah 42:11: Be not afraid of the king of Babylon, of whom ye are afraid;
be not afraid of him, saith [Yahweh]: for I am with you to save you, and to
deliver you from his hand.
Amos 5:14: Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so [Yahweh], the
God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.
Haggai 1:13: Then spake Haggai [Yahweh]'s messenger in [Yahweh]'s message
unto the people, saying, I am with you, saith [Yahweh].
Haggai 2:4: Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, saith [Yahweh]; and be strong,
O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all ye people of
the land, saith [Yahweh], and work: for I am with you, saith [Yahweh] of
hosts:
Philippians 4:9: Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and
heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
2 Thessalonians 3:16: Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by
all means. The Lord be with you all.
Yahweh sent his angel as his representative to Moses. The word to Moses
was
"through angels". -- Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2.
Is that supposed to erase the above scriptures?
No, I have no reason to erase any of the scriptures. The scriptures do help
one to understand how Yahweh used his angels as agents in what he spoke to
Moses.
He didn't send Himself to dwell between the cherubim?
I don't know of any scripture that says that Yahweh sent himself to dwell
between the cherubs.
Again that's the point. There are no scriptures saying He left heaven to
be
here. See the above scriptures.
The point is that God does not have to leave heaven in order to be with and
to dwell with His people.
"And no man hath
ascended up to heaven, if not he that came down from heaven, even the
Son
of
man which is in heaven" (John 3:13).
I am not sure why you are quoting this verse, not unless it is with the
thought that the Son of Man was in heaven and on earth at the same time,
although I am still not sure how this would relate to what is being
discussed.
The latter phrase "which is in heaven" appears to be a later addition,
and
many translations do not have it. -- See New American Standard, English
Standard, Holman Christian Standard, New Living Translation, New Revised
Standard, Good News Translation, The Message translation, The Complete
Jewish Bible translation, New Century Version, God's Word Translation,
The
Bible in Basic English, Today's New International, Emphasized Bible
translation, and many more.
It is missing from the Egyptian texts (Sinaiticus and Vaticanus), but it
is
in the majority of the texts, and it wasn't te body which came down from
heaven.
The majority of the texts are of later rendition, and do not necessarily
represent what was originally written. Something spurious, once introduced,
can be copied over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over; the fact that thousand of copies were made
that contain a spurious passage does not take away from its being spurious
if it was indeed a later addition to scripture.
What is the manuscript evidence?
The following manuscripts do not have the phrase:
p66 Cologny: P. Bodmer II (c200)
p75 Cologny: P. Bodmer XIV-XV (early 3rd century)
B Vatican, Gr. 1209 (4th century)
@ London: British Lib. (Sinaitic - 4th century)
cop(sa) Coptic - Sahidic (south Egypt - c180)
cop(fay) Coptic - Fayumic (Fayum district)
cop(ach2) Coptic - sub-Achmimic
L Paris: Biblio. Nat'l., Gr 62 (Regius - 8th century)
083 St. Petersburg (6th or 7th century)
0113 Paris (5th century)
1241 Sinai (12th century)
If the latter part is genuine, it should be viewed as an added statement
by
John that at the time John was writing the Son of Man as ascended to
heaven.
No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the
Son
of Man (who is in heaven)
The NT, of itself, does not presently remove the blindness for neither
Israel nor the world. To the world, the Bible is still a mystery. Its
sayings and parables are not understood.
Only those who symbolically have
ears to hear, and eyes to see, are able to have the blindness removed,
and
that in varying degrees. The rest remain under the blinding influence of
Satan, as permitted by, and under the the direction of, Yahweh. --
Matthew
11:14,15; 13:1-23; 15:14; Mark 4:1-20; Luke 8:4-21; John 12:40; Romans
11:1-32; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 12:9.
It is not until the age to come, that the nations, the heathen, will no
longer be blinded. -- Revelation 20:1-3.
You're off on a tangent, for the the revelation of the first coming of the
Lord before the day of the Lord removes the blindness of Israel to His
first
coming.
Only to a remant was the message revealed, not to Israel as whole.
For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you will say,
'Blessed is he who comes in the name of [Yahweh]. -- Matthew 23:39.
Luke 13:35 - Behold, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you
will not see me, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of
[Yahweh]!'"
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant [of
Israel saved] according to the election of grace.
He revealed what He would do as promised (Amos 3:7). And that
blindness would be revealede when the fullness of the gentiles had
entered,
before the salvation of all of Israel. Rom 11:25.
Israel as whole was and still is "ignorant" of God's righteouness as
revealed in Jesus.
Romans 10:3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to
establish their own righteousness, they [Israel] didn't subject themselves
to the righteousness of God.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone
who believes.
Romans 11:7 What then? That which Israel seeks for, that he didn't obtain,
but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened.
Romans 11:8 According as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this
very day."
Romans 11:9 David says, "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, A
stumbling block, and a retribution to them.
Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see. Bow down
their back always."
It is not until full part allowed for the Gentiles is completed that God
will again turn his attention to Israel, and then all Israel will be saved.
Romans 11:25 For I don't desire, brothers, to have you ignorant of this
mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in
part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,
Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, "There
will come out of Zion the Deliverer [Savior], And he will turn away
ungodliness from Jacob."
It is at Jesus' second advent that the "savior" as a whole, including Jesus
and his body of believers, will come to turn away ungodliness from Jacob,
and all thus all of Israel will be saved. The salvation of Israel as a whole
did not happen at Jesus' first advent, nor has it yet happened. Only when
God is through selected his elect out of all nations will the savior class
be completed. The saints who are to rule and judge Israel (as well as the
world) are all called saviors, as they are part of the seed of Abraham with
Jesus that will bless all the families of the earth during the Millennial
rule.. -- Obadiah 21; Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:29; Revelation 20:6; See
also Daniel 7:22,27; Matthew 9:28; Luke 22:30; John 12:47,48; Acts 17:31; 1
Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 1:6; 5:10; 20:4,6; Psalm 82:6; Isaiah 2:2-4.
In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
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| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
27 Aug 2007 09:44:31 PM |
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"ResLight" <rday888@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:VWJAi.87631$Xr3.66441@fe174.usenetserver.com...
See my responses below
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover7@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:qJ6xi.233$LL7.94@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
"ResLight" <rday888@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:M03xi.35565$W45.6215@fe177.usenetserver.com...
Actually, Yahweh of Hosts is speaking about the coming of the day of
Yahweh.
Which is for the day of the Lord.
It is the day of Yahweh, who is the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
Jesus is God and creator: John 1:2-5
The same was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life;
and the life was the light of men. [5] And the light shineth in darkness;
and the darkness comprehended it not.
Comprendeth?
I have nothing to be unclear about. Jesus is not his God. Jesus
distinguishes himself from the only true God in John 17:1,3.
No, that's an example of your inability to conceive of the God of
scripture.
The only true God of the scriptures is the God and Father of Jesus. I have
no scriptural reason to conceive of the only true God outside of what is
revealed in the scriptures.
Hey, pay attention, He also created His body which made Him "father." It's
in the book. Are you being deceived by purient fantasies of the incarnation?
When you conjure up a God that can only be in one place at a time, you
are
unclear on the concept of God, and Jesus is He.
It is the idea that Jesus is His Supreme Being that has to be conjured up,
added to, and read into the scriptures.
No, it is simply a matter of believing Him, or in your case, not believing
Him.
I don't know of any scripture that says that Yahweh "sent himself" to
meet
with Moses. Of course, in the broad sense, I suppose one could speak of
sending himself to the store, sending himself to work, etc., but I don't
know of any scripture that uses such terminology regarding the only Most
High, Yahweh.
That's the point. There is no scripture of His leaving heaven, yet there
are
scriptures of His being here on earth.
Ex 15:17, 23:33, 25:8, 29:45
Yahweh, whom neither the skies nor than earth can contain, can, of course,
make His presence known anywhere He wishes. This has nothing at all to do
with the idea that Jesus is his own God.
Shell game? That was the point you miss. Nor is he contained in the
limitations of your natural mind, which is not spiritual and which is
contained.
Exodus 15:17 - and Moses buildeth an altar, and calleth its name
Jehovah-Nissi. -- Young's Literal Translation.
The altar was not Jehovah, the name given to the altar was
"Jehovah-Nissi", meaning "Yahweh is our Banner." There is nothing in this
scripture about Yahweh being on the earth.
You lie! Ex 19-34
Exodus 3:4 (KJV)
And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him
out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am
I.
Exodus 13:21 (KJV)
And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead
them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by
day and night:
Exodus 15:17 (KJV)
Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine
inheritance, in the place, O Lord, which thou hast made for thee to dwell
in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.
Exodus 23:33 (KJV)
They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me:
for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.
Exodus 25:8 (KJV)
And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
Exodus 25:22 (KJV)
And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above
the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the
testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the
children of Israel.
Exodus 29:45-46 (KJV)
And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
[46] And they shall know that I am the Lord their God, that brought them
forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the Lord
their God.
1 Samuel 4:4 (KJV)
So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from thence the ark
of the covenant of the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth between the cherubims:
and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the
covenant of God.
Numbers 7:89 (KJV)
And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle of the congregation to speak
with him, then he heard the voice of one speaking unto him from off the
mercy seat that was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two
cherubims: and he spake unto him.
Exodus 19:9 (KJV)
And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud,
that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever.
And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.
Again, this speaks of Yahweh's angel, not Yahweh Himself. Of course, the
angel, being sent by Yahweh, does the works of Yahweh as the
representative of Yahweh.
So, you blaspheme, but He not only met with Moses but with the people of
Israel.
Exodus 25:8 - Let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them.
This scripture does speak of Yahweh's dwelling amongst his people. What
does this mean? It certainly does not mean the entire being of Yahweh was
actually down on the earth.
It most certainly does, just as He actually was down on earth when we nailed
Him to the cross.
<snip>
We are told: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of
God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because
they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14), and you demonstrate it as you
babble like a fool saying God can't be confined while confining Him from
being on earth while He is in heaven.
I show the verses and you babble on about how they can't say what they say.
While taxing your mind to be the fool we see, you overlooked and important
warning, "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found" (Is 55:6). You're out in
the dark and the door is closed.
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
16 Aug 2007 06:36:51 PM |
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Why is your god, the creator of the whole Universe and everything in it, so
mysterious, inconsistent and vague?
"ResLight" <rday888@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:M03xi.35565$W45.6215@fe177.usenetserver.com...
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover7@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:AdPwi.130$vU4.25@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
"ResLight" <rday888@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:1wFwi.25920$CW.110@fe195.usenetserver.com...
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover@email.com> wrote in message
news:iURvi.45629$Um6.31330@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
Malachi 4:1 - "For, behold, the day comes, it burns as a furnace; and
all>> the proud, and all who work wickedness, will be stubble; and the
day that
comes will burn them up," says Yahweh of Hosts, "that it shall leave
them
neither root nor branch.
He speaks here of the day of the Lord.
Actually, Yahweh of Hosts is speaking about the coming of the day of
Yahweh.
Malachi 4:5 - Behold, I [Yahweh] will send you Elijah the prophet
before
the
great and terrible day of Yahweh comes.
The One speaking here is Yahweh. (Malachi 4:1) Are you saying that
Yahweh
was saying that he was going to send himself as his own prophet? It
should
be seen that adding the word "the prophet" that the reference is to the
individual spoken of in Kings and Chronicles, not to Yahweh Himself.
There is nothing in any of this that says that Jesus was claiming to be
his
God, Yahweh.
Unclear on the concept of God.
I have nothing to be unclear about. Jesus is not his God. Jesus
distinguishes himself from the only true God in John 17:1,3.
He didn't send Himself to meet with Moses?
I don't know of any scripture that says that Yahweh "sent himself" to meet
with Moses. Of course, in the broad sense, I suppose one could speak of
sending himself to the store, sending himself to work, etc., but I don't
know of any scripture that uses such terminology regarding the only Most
High, Yahweh.
Yahweh sent his angel as his representative to Moses. The word to Moses
was
"through angels". -- Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2.
See my earlier response to colp.
http://tinyurl.com/3x5mwo
He didn't send Himself to dwell between the cherubim?
I don't know of any scripture that says that Yahweh sent himself to dwell
between the cherubs.
Of course, the entire being of Yahweh, whom the sky and whole earth
cannot
contain (1 Kings 8:27), was certainly not contained in the cloud between
the
cherubs, but a representation of God's glory was there.
The shekinah glory typically represented God's presence, the reality of
which is in heaven. -- Exodus 25:22; Leviticus 16:2; Hebrews 8:2,5; 9:5;
10:1.
Only the high priest was allowed in the Most Holy before the glory of God,
and the high priest thus offered in communion with God once a year for the
people. (Exodus 30:10; Leviticus 16:2-34; Hebrews 9:7) Jesus is
represented
by the high priest, and also as the sacrifice offered by the priest. Jesus
presents the offering of his body of flesh and blood to God in the
presence
of his God in heaven, the reality represented by the most holy. -- John
6:51; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 7:25; 9:24. See all of Hebrews 8,9,10.
"And no man hath
ascended up to heaven, if not he that came down from heaven, even the
Son
of
man which is in heaven" (John 3:13).
I am not sure why you are quoting this verse, not unless it is with the
thought that the Son of Man was in heaven and on earth at the same time,
although I am still not sure how this would relate to what is being
discussed.
The latter phrase "which is in heaven" appears to be a later addition, and
many translations do not have it. -- See New American Standard, English
Standard, Holman Christian Standard, New Living Translation, New Revised
Standard, Good News Translation, The Message translation, The Complete
Jewish Bible translation, New Century Version, God's Word Translation, The
Bible in Basic English, Today's New International, Emphasized Bible
translation, and many more.
If the latter part is genuine, it should be viewed as an added statement
by
John that at the time John was writing the Son of Man as ascended to
heaven.
No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the
Son
of Man (who is in heaven)
You seem to an anthromorphic image of
God.
Why do you go to the verse which contains the blindness instead of the
NT
verses which remove it?
The NT, of itself, does not presently remove the blindness for neither
Israel nor the world. To the world, the Bible is still a mystery. Its
sayings and parables are not understood. Only those who symbolically have
ears to hear, and eyes to see, are able to have the blindness removed, and
that in varying degrees. The rest remain under the blinding influence of
Satan, as permitted by, and under the the direction of, Yahweh. -- Matthew
11:14,15; 13:1-23; 15:14; Mark 4:1-20; Luke 8:4-21; John 12:40; Romans
11:1-32; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 12:9.
It is not until the age to come, that the nations, the heathen, will no
longer be blinded. -- Revelation 20:1-3.
http://studies.reslight.net/mysteries.html
NT scripture like: "Why then say the scribes that
Elijah must first come?" (Matt 17:10): "EL YH truly shall first come,
and
restore all things" (Matt 17:11): "For all the prophets and the law
prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is EL YH, which
was
for to come" (Matt 11:13-14): "he shall go before him in the spirit and
power of El YH" (Luke 1:17), the Spirit with which he was born: "he
shall
be
filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb" (Luke 1:15).
Matthew 17:11 - Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming
first and will restore all things.
Matthew 17:12 - But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they
did
not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man
is
also about to suffer at their hands."
I still fail to see anything in any of this that means that Jesus is his
God, Yahweh.
Malachi's prophecy, the last message sent by Jehovah to Israel, seems to
have deeply impressed them -- especially the last two chapters, which
particularly refer to Messiah's coming, and to the special trials which
the
day of the Lord's presence would bring with it. (See Malachi 3:1-3, 13-18;
4:1-6.) Gathering from this that the testing would be peculiar, they took
comfort from the last verses quoted above, which promised that Elijah the
prophet, who had once converted the entire nation from the worship of Baal
back to the worship of God, would come again to prepare them, before this
severe testing time which Messiah's coming would bring.
This prophecy was not fulfilled at the first advent of our Lord -- neither
the portion which relates to Messiah nor that which refers to Elijah. The
reference of the prophecy is evidently to the second advent; to the coming
of the "Messenger of the Covenant" in glory and power; and to the testing
and great trouble of the Day of the Lord at that time. However, Christ's
presentation to typical Israel, and the great trouble which came upon them
as a nation when they rejected him, was, as God had foreseen and intended,
another shadow which further illustrated in many particulars the things
presented in this prophecy. John the Immerser, in the spirit of Elijah,
did
a work for Israel similar to that of the Elijah promised, but failed of
success; and, as a result, trouble (a curse) upon that nation followed.
The
real Elijah referred to by the prophet was to do a great work for the
whole
"earth," to prepare all mankind for the second advent; and he will for a
time also seemingly fail of success, and as a result the great time of
trouble (the curse) will smite the whole earth.
Since the coming of Elijah mentioned by the prophet is to be "before" this
"great and dreadful Day of Jehovah," it is important to show here that
Elijah has come. He did not, however, turn the hearts of the world to
childlikeness and to the [true] wisdom of the just; and therefore the
great
time of trouble comes, as God foresaw and foretold. In it, God will teach
mankind by severe and bitter experiences lessons they need to learn
thoroughly, to prepare them to gratefully accept the Christ, Jehovah's
Messenger of the New Covenant -- with all the just arrangements, laws,
etc.,
of that covenant.
The above is from a study presented in *Herald of Christ's Kingdom",
entitled "Elias Shall Come First":
http://www.heraldmag.org/archives/1956_12.htm#_Toc36375046
Then there is John's testimony. He is not the Messiah, he is not Elijah,
he
is not the Elijah-like alternative.
John 1:19-25
John the Baptist was not literally Elijah returned from the grace, nor was
he, as some claim, the reincarnation of Elijah. John, therefore, was right
in denying that he was Elijah.
Additionally, Jesus did say of John: If you (Israel) receive it, this one
is
[represents] Elijah, who is to come
Jesus' statement was conditional: If you receive it, this one is Elijah;
if
not, he is not Elijah. They did not receive it, hence John could
truthfully
say, "I am not.'" John the Baptist did not fullfil by any means all that
was
predicted respecting the antitypical Elijah and his ministries which would
be introductory to the Christ of glory. John was not the Elijah mentioned
by
the Prophet, and yet he did a work of Elijah to those amongst the Jews who
received his message.
See an online study on this
http://agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0092.htm
(the above was first published in 1889)
Nothing in any of this, however, means that Jesus is his Supreme Being,
the
only Most High, Yahweh, of whom Jesus is the Son. -- Mark 5:7; Luke 1:32;
8:28 (Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus, is the only Most High: Genesis
14:22; 2 Samuel 22:14; Psalm 7:17; Psalm 18:13; Psalm 47:2; Psalm 83:18;
97:9).
In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald
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| User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?RORyRmzka2Vu?=" |
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| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
16 Aug 2007 07:30:51 PM |
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"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:4c5xi.3712$wN3.538@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
Why is your god, the creator of the whole Universe and everything in it,
so
mysterious, inconsistent and vague?
And why does he like to murder humans by the thousands?
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| User: "ResLight" |
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| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
27 Aug 2007 05:27:11 PM |
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Yahweh is not inconsistent, but He has not yet revealed Himself to the world
of mankind. The Bible reveals that almost total darkness enshrouds hundreds
of millions of men and women -- people who were born in darkness, who have
lived constantly in that darkness, and who every day are dying in darkness.
According to the popular idea of the Gospel (Good News), these are doomed to
spend an eternity of conscious indescribable suffering unless they can be
reached with this Good News. The question is: Can this really be the "good
news" for all mankind -- that the vast majority are to spend an eternity in
indescribable suffering? when we look to the Word of God, the Holy Bible, we
find that God's great plan of salvation was never intended to be, or ever
will be such a failure. The prophet Isaiah foretold the very darkness that
has spread over the nations of the earth, but he also foretells its remedy.
"Behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people;
but Yahweh will arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And
the nations will come to your light." (Isaiah 60:2,3) How happy we can be
that God will not leave the nations of the earth in darkness! He has
promised that they will come to his light.
But the questions remain: Why does God permit such a great portion of the
earth to remain in darkness? Why is the Bible, to a large degree, a book of
parables, symbolisms and dark sayings? Why is it not completely open and
clear so that everyone, everywhere would be able to understand it? Why is it
that Doctors of Divinity find its details perplexing, mysterious,
incomprehensible? What excuse can be offered for the secrecy connected with
a subject in which all should be interested? The answer to these questions
are discussed in our next study and will open doors of truth, to a proper
appreciation of the Bible as the Word of God.
We should note that the Bible does declare itself to be a book of mysteries,
or secrets. The four gospels of the Christian Scriptures (commonly called
New Testament) are supposed by many to be the simplest and plainest portion
of the Bible. They tell about the deeds and words of Jesus Messiah while he
was on this earth. However, in harmony with the prophecies, the Great
Teacher himself delivered his message in parables and dark sayings. "He
never spoke to the people without using a parable," that "Hearing they might
hear and not understand; and seeing, they might see and not perceive."
(Matthew 13:14) There are many mysteries or secrets connected with the
Bible. We have not reached the time when absolutely everything can be
understood in the Bible, not even by the true servants of God. No one on
earth today can grasp absolutely everything about the Bible. The conditions
of Isaiah 29:18,24 have not yet come. But the Bible does say that "the path
of the just is as the shining light, that shines more and more until the
perfect day" (Proverbs 4:18). We have not yet attained that perfect day.
Someone might say that Jesus spoke in parables or illustrations so that the
people might understand better, but this is not the reason Jesus himself
gave. The followers of Jesus once asked him why he spoke to the people in
parables. In giving his answer he said: "Therefore speak I to them in
parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do
they understand." (Matthew 13:13) Jesus then quoted from Isaiah 6:9,10,
which we will quote from the Jerusalem Bible: "Go and say to this people,
`Hear and hear again, but do not understand; see and see again, but do not
perceive.' Make the heart of this people gross, its ears dull; shut its
eyes, so that it will not see with its eyes, hear with its ears, understand
with its heart, and be converted and healed." Then Jesus said to his
followers: "But happy are your eyes because they see, your ears because they
hear!" (Matthew 13:16, JB) In Mark 4:11,12, Jesus' answer to his disciples
is very clear: "Unto you it is given to know the mystery [secret] of the
kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in
parables: that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may
hear, and not understand." If this explanation is to make any sense at all,
we must conclude that he was saying that he spoke in parables to keep the
multitudes of people from understanding his message, while a few, his true
followers, were permitted to understand.
This, of course, must be the way that God has intended for it to be. But
why? Because God knows, even as he promised, that eventually `all will be
saved, and come the knowledge of the truth.' (1 Timothy 2:4) He knows that
the time will come when "the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and the
eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and darkness" and that those
"who erred in spirit will come to understanding, and those who murmured will
learn doctrine." (Isaiah 29:18,24 -- New King James Version, hereafter
referred to as NKJV) Yes, the time will come when he will "turn to the
peoples a pure language" that they may all call upon him with one
consent. -- Zephaniah. 3:9.
Thousands may read the Bible but fail to understand it. God is keeping its
truths secret from the people of the world at the present time, not because
he does not love them, but because he does love them. Under the present
conditions the truth would be injurious to the majority of people. This is
because of the sinful nature of mankind as shown in Isaiah 29. But God still
loves them, and whom he loves he disciplines. (John 3:16; Hebrews 12:6) So
God has "shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all."
(Romans 11:32) How well the true believer today may exclaim: "O the depth of
the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" -- Romans. 11:33.
There are many scriptures that speak of the secrecy connected with the
message of the Bible. The apostle Paul refers to its tidings as the message
"which was a hidden mystery for generations and centuries and has now been
revealed to his saints [dedicated ones]." (Colossians 1:26, JB) At this
point we want to emphasis that the Good News of the Bible was not made known
to the world at large, but only to his "saints". Jesus also, when speaking
to his Father in prayer, said: "I bless you, Father, Ruler of heaven and of
earth, for hiding these things from the learned and the clever and revealing
them to mere children. Yes, Father, for that is what it pleased you to do."
(Matthew 11:25-26, JB) Often those that are well spoken of and respected by
men are passed by, while outwardly despicable people may be chosen to
receive His secrets. -- 1 Corinthians 1:26-29.
Proceeding the apostle Paul shows us the necessity for this secretiveness as
respects the true message of Good News. He shows that if it were generally
known amongst men, the Divine program would at times be interfered with. He
tells us that none of the princes or prominent ones of the world understood
the wisdom of God -- for had they known it, they would not have put Jesus to
death. As he explains: "But as it is written [in Isaiah 64:4]: Eye has not
seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things
God has prepared for them that love him. But God has revealed them to us by
his Spirit .... We have received, not the spirit of the world, but the
spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given
to us of God." -- 1 Corinthians 2:8-13.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," says
Yahweh. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher
than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." -- Isaiah 55:8,9
But isn't God interested in converting the world? Doesn't he want to save as
many as possible? And if he is, why didn't he make the Bible so that
everyone could easily obtain and understand it? The God who created the
Universe is thoughtful of all the interests of his people. All their needs
have been supplied as far as He has seen good. He made food for the
nourishment of our bodies, and beautiful things for our eyes to see, and
sweet sounds for our ears. If he would provide these for us, would he not
also provide things for our minds concerning the future?
If we had been living before God gave His people a Bible, and He had told us
that he would give man His revelation in a book, we would have looked
forward to it eagerly, and with pleasant anticipation, and we would wonder
what kind of book it would be. A man who writes a book generally tries to
make his subject as plain as possible, so that his meaning can be easily
understood. Likewise some might conclude that if God should provide a book,
He would make it so plain that none could fail to understand. We might
expect that it would be so wonderful, that it could not be written by man,
but by angels; that he would put a bright shining light around it, so all
would know that it was His book; that it would have a miraculous power which
would heal the sick; and if anyone should say anything against it, he would
drop dead instantly; and that all might be born with this wonderful book,
and be able to understand it. But when we read scriptures such as Isaiah
55:8-11, we answer: "NO! God thinks differently from man." Therefore, God
has given us a Bible, and a message, very different from what man might
expect. Instead of angels writing it, poor imperfect men wrote it. There is
no bright shining physical light gleaming from it. No one drops dead talking
against it. There are millions on earth today that still do not even know
that there is a Bible, much less be born with it or understand it. Yes, God
could have made the Bible so plain that one could not get more than one
meaning from it. How easily we might think that the world could be converted
if such were the case. But God knows better than we, and therefore the Bible
that we have is the best kind of Bible, better for us than the miraculous
kind would have been.
However, it is a mistake to suppose that God is not interested in converting
the world. (Psalm 22:27; 150:6; Romans 14:11) He is more interested in it
than any human could possibly be. Why then did He not give us a simple
Bible? The reason for its obscurity must be that men have failed to
understand the heavenly Father's design and purpose for the present world.
We have already given evidence that He confirmed that there would be much
misconception and misunderstanding of Him and His purpose. But once we
understand God's purposes, then we can answer the question.
We must get rid of the misconceived idea that God is NOW trying to convert
the world, or that he is NOW trying to save as many as possible from some
eternal doom, as most religious people suppose. If God were trying to
convert as many as possible of the world to save them from some eternal
doom, would he have not been anxious for his disciples to go to all peoples?
Instead he told his disciples NOT to go to the Gentiles. (Matthew 10:5)
Jesus was not here being cruel, but he knew of His Father's purposes to
enlighten the whole world at a future date. We know that God is not now
trying to convert the world, because the world is not converted -- far from
it! God accomplishes everything he purposes to do. (Isaiah. 55:10,11) If it
were God's purpose to convert the world NOW, then the Good News failed -- it
did not accomplish its work. But God has not been trying to convert the
world. He does not have to try, because He is omnipotent (John 12:37-40). If
people of the world had understood the true Bible message, they would have
believed, but that was NOT God's purpose (Matthew 13:10-17; 11:23; 10:5,6;
Acts 16:6,7; 1 Peter 1:10-12). God did NOT intend that they should NEVER be
converted, because he has promised a time to come when they will be
converted, but this has not yet begun, nor will it be accomplished as long
as this present evil world continues (2 Timothy 3:1,2; 2 Peter 3:3,4;
Matthew 24:37; Isaiah 6:9-11; Dan. 12:1; Zephaniah 3:8-13). The Bible tells
us that in "the time of the end" of this world there will be a "time of
trouble". This will mean great distress and sorrow for the world of mankind.
But this does not mean the destruction of this planet, for the promise is
that the earth will blossom as the rose. (Isaiah 35:1,2; Genesis 8:21,22;
Ecclesiastes 1:4; Isaiah 45:17,18; Genesis 13:15; 15:18; Acts 7:4,5) The
present order of things will be destroyed, and a new order of things will be
established. God's Word will continue to be misunderstood until this age
(this present evil world) is over. (Zephaniah 3:8,9) Then the darkness
surrounding the true Good News will be removed (Isaiah. 25:7; Haggai 2:7).
God has purposed the conversion of the world, but not during the past 2000
years. The reason why the Good News is kept secret is that his plans might
be hidden from all but the truly meek and lowly at heart who respond to his
call, until the due time for all to know. Our Lord was glad that these
things were hidden, and thought it right for the Heavenly Father to keep
them hidden from the worldly. -- Matthew 11:25,26.
In Isaiah 29:11 it is declared prophetically that the vision of all things
(Lesser) is become as the words of a sealed book. Men have turned things
upside down, as was foretold (vs. 16). The world needs to be enlightened!
Will the world be enlightened by missionaries being sent out in this present
evil world? The facts indicate that it will never happen this way. The day
in which the world will be enlightened is called in the Bible the "judgment
day". It is not a 24-hour day, but as shown in 2 Peter 3:7,8, it is a 1000
year day. During that judgment day the inhabitants of the earth will learn
righteousness. -- Isaiah 26:9.
What now stands in the way of the enlightenment of world? -1- Satan the
Devil puts evil thoughts and desires into men's minds and hearts. Hence, if
the world is to be enlightened, Satan must be removed that he might not use
his power to mislead people. (Revelation 20:2,3) -2-Imperfect missionaries
now lack the power and means to accomplish the work. Worldly governments
interfere. It will not be so in that Millennial day, for the entire world
will then be under the control of Jesus and his authorized agents. (Daniel
2:35,44; Isaiah 11:9; Psalm 72:2-8) -3-Suitably trained teachers must be
chosen. Men have thought that they could chose and train them, but only God
can do that, and instead of a three or four years' training, it takes all of
a dedicated lifetime (Romans 8:18,19; 1 Thessalonians 2:12; 1 Corinthians
6:2; Isaiah 26:9). -4-Ignorance, darkness, confusion prevail now, and there
are many confusing, contradictory, false religious teachings; but in that
day the knowledge of God will fill the whole earth, and all will know him.
(Isaiah 11:9; Jeremiah 31:34) The Good News message contained in the Bible
will come out of its obscurity as its message is made plain (2 Corinthians.
4:4; 1 Corinthians. 11:13-15). Will God give mankind a new Bible? We do not
think so. However, provisions will be made so that its books will be opened
and all will be judged by the things written in those books (Revelation
20:12,13; Isaiah 29:18). God will remove the vail that is spread over all
nations (Isaiah 25:7; 2 Corinthians 4:3). The way will then be made so plain
that even a foolish man will not err therein (Isaiah 35:8). Now the Good
news message is so obscure that even the wise men stumble at it (John
6:60,61). Yes, the day of judgment is coming, when Jesus will judge everyone
in righteousness -- Acts 17:31.
But what about those who have died -- especially those who have died without
ever hearing of Jesus (Jesus)? How will they benefit from this enlightenment
if they are dead? God has promised that he will awaken all of these from the
sleep of death. "Marvel not at this, for an hour is coming, in which all
those in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth, they that
have practiced good to a resurrection of life; and they that did evil, to a
resurrection of judgment [Greek -- krisis]." (John 5:28,29 -- King James II
Version). Jesus is the true light that enlightens every man that comes into
the world (John 1:9). The light will enter their hearts also (1 Timothy
1:4). God wills all men to be saved [delivered from death], and to come to
an accurate knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) The salvation spoken of
here is not salvation into life for all eternity, but rather salvation
[deliverance] from the death state. Having arisen from the dead, they are
then taught the truth that they might be saved eternally.
Someone may ask, "Does the Bible declare that everyone will live forever?"
We answer: "No." (Psalm 18:44; 66:3) As soon as they understand about God
and his purposes, many will obey him, but will still not develop the right
heart attitude. With some, as they see the goodness of God and happiness
righteousness brings, this feigned obedience will change to meekness and
heart obedience. But others will refuse to obey at heart. "Show favor to the
wicked, yet he will not learn righteousness, in the land of uprightness will
he deal falsely." (Isaiah 26:10) Some will thus show that they are wicked at
heart. For such there will be no excuse. There will then be no inherited
weaknesses, and none will suffer for the sins of others; it will no longer
be said that "the fathers have eaten the sour grapes, and the children's
teeth are set on edge." -- Jeremiah 31:27-30.
Will it then be a second chance? This question could be answered yes and no,
for it depends on which way you are viewing matters. We must remember that
our first chance to live forever was lost for us through Adam when he
disobeyed in the Garden of Eden (Romans 5:12,15-18). The human race that
descended from Adam never received an individual chance in that trial. But
in the Millennial day each person will be tried individually -- and in that
sense it will not be a second chance, but the FIRST real opportunity they
have ever had to understand and respond to the Good news. Yet none who have
had a full opportunity in this present evil world will have another one
(Hebrews 6:4-8; 10:26-29). A full opportunity means one that is broad and
complete, such as few have had amidst all the confusion and turmoil in this
present evil world. Even in countries where the Bible is printed in
abundance, children are raised with such incorrect training of mind and
inclinations, and there is so much confusion as to what is and what is not
right, can one honestly say that these have received any complete and
absolute chance for life? Jesus said that such are not judged NOW but that
they will be judged in the "last day" -- that judgment day when they will be
enlightened. (John 12:47,48; Isaiah 26:9; 29:18,24) This will actually be
their FIRST individual chance to live forever.
There is yet another reason that the Bible message is kept secret from the
world of mankind. It is only by keeping it secret from the world that the
world seeks to try out all its own devices separate from God. God wants to
teach man a lesson concerning the vanity of life separated from him. As the
wise King Solomon said concerning all of man's own works: `Vanity of
vanities; all is vanity.' (Ecclesiastes 1:2) `Seeing there be many things
that increase vanity, what is man the better? For who knows what is good for
man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spends as a shadow?
For who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?' (Ecclesiastes
6:11,12) `What profit is there for the worker in that which he works? I have
seen the travail which God has given the sons of men to be exercised by it.'
(Ecclesiastes 3:9,10) Man tries to better this world in many ways. He tries
one thing after another, not realizing the vanity of his efforts. All of
mankind's experimentations are being permitted by God. God is allowing man
to rule over another to his own hurt, so that they will better appreciate
who Yahweh is and the righteous rule that will come. (Psalm 83:18;
Ecclesiastes 8:9; Isaiah 2:1-4) It is a disciplinary process that will
eternally benefit all who avail themselves of Messiah's righteous rule.
While the whole world is now being subjected to this vanity by the will of
God, God knows that he will bring the world of mankind out of this
corruption and back into harmony with him (Romans 8:19-22). What a happy
prospect for those who are now blinded by Satan's evil influence!
For a proper appreciation of the true Gospel, more is required than what is
popularly taught by the nominal churches. Jesus said that true worshipers
must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:23) It is not enough to say that
you claim Jesus as your savior and lead what is considered a good moral
life. God does not accept worship that is not in accord with his will. Again
Jesus said, "Not every one that says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter into
the kingdom of heaven; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in
heaven. Many will say to me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied
in your name? and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done
many wonderful works?' And then will I profess to you, `I never knew you:
depart from me, you who work illegally.'"
In Proverbs 2:3-6, we are promised: "If you cry for discernment, lifting up
your voice for understanding; if you seek her as silver, and search for her
as hidden treasures, then you will understand the reverence of Yahweh, and
find knowledge of God." See what is required? This seeking must become the
most important thing in our life. Our minds must rise above everything we
see, feel and touch so that we might receive the holy spirit. (1 Corinthians
2:10,12) Jesus said: "True worshipers will worship in spirit and truth, for
the Father seeks such who worship him. God is a spirit, and they that
worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:23,24) Without this
total dedication to seeking and the doing of God's will, one may understand
a few bits and pieces here and there of God's word, but he will not be given
the more precious things of the treasures hidden in its pages. With
whole-souled dedication, we will continue to seek and understand more and
more each and every day. These words of our heavenly Father become to us
more precious than any earthly treasure. Praise Yah!
More at:
http://studies.reslight.net/mysteries.html
Christian love,
Ronald
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:4c5xi.3712$wN3.538@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
Why is your god, the creator of the whole Universe and everything in it,
so
mysterious, inconsistent and vague?
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| User: "colp" |
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| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
13 Aug 2007 01:33:01 AM |
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On Aug 13, 5:22 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:
"colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1186976968.800777.24710@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 13, 1:18 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:
"ResLight" <rday...@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:RZKvi.22117$ZL5.2081@fe54.usenetserver.com...
"colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1186898784.977519.283840@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 12, 4:11 pm, "ResLight" <rday...@reject.reslight.net> wrote:
Yes, Jesus is not EHYEH. EHYEH (Yahweh) sent Jesus.
No. These verses should be considered without doctrine.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham
was, I am.
John 8:58
Yes, there is no reason to add to the scripture a doctrine that Jesus
was
saying that he was EHYEH (Yahweh). Such a doctrine has to be added to
and
read into what Jesus said.
Jesus said He is LORD God
Not AFAIK.
, as did the prophet who prophesied His first
coming.
You mean Isaiah 40:3? "The way" can be figurative, meaning the
unfolding of a plan rather than the arrival of YHWH himself.
No, Malachi who prophesied the coming of LORD God [EL YH] before the day of
the Lord, which the scribes misread as Elijah [ELYH]: "Why then say the
scribes that Elias must first come?" (Matt 17:10).
Wht do you think that EL YH means YHWH Elohim? When the name is used
two parts in Genesis 2 it starts with yod, not aleph.
If Malachi 4:5 referred to anyone other than Elijah (ELYH), wouldn't
Yeshua have corrected them as to the true identity in Matthew 17?
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
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| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
14 Aug 2007 06:02:01 AM |
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"colp" <colp@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1186986781.694279.112540@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 13, 5:22 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:
"colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1186976968.800777.24710@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 13, 1:18 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:
"ResLight" <rday...@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:RZKvi.22117$ZL5.2081@fe54.usenetserver.com...
"colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1186898784.977519.283840@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 12, 4:11 pm, "ResLight" <rday...@reject.reslight.net>
wrote:
Yes, Jesus is not EHYEH. EHYEH (Yahweh) sent Jesus.
No. These verses should be considered without doctrine.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham
was, I am.
John 8:58
Yes, there is no reason to add to the scripture a doctrine that
Jesus
was
saying that he was EHYEH (Yahweh). Such a doctrine has to be added
to
and
read into what Jesus said.
Jesus said He is LORD God
Not AFAIK.
, as did the prophet who prophesied His first
coming.
You mean Isaiah 40:3? "The way" can be figurative, meaning the
unfolding of a plan rather than the arrival of YHWH himself.
No, Malachi who prophesied the coming of LORD God [EL YH] before the day
of
the Lord, which the scribes misread as Elijah [ELYH]: "Why then say the
scribes that Elias must first come?" (Matt 17:10).
Why do you think that EL YH means YHWH Elohim? When the name is used
two parts in Genesis 2 it starts with yod, not aleph.
I don't understand your question. In Genesis 2, I only see `elohim and
Yahweh, but I'm relying on the Strong's reference in with my Bible program.
It is the text of scriptures in the NT which tells me it is LORD God, not
Elijah, but. El, the singular of Elohim, is God and is used in this verse:
(Gen 35:7) and YH
is LORD and is used in this verse (Ps 68:4).
If Malachi 4:5 referred to anyone other than Elijah (ELYH), wouldn't
Yeshua have corrected them as to the true identity in Matthew 17?
He did, for the Lord is the redeemer who restores all things, but it
wouldn't be realized until it was time for the blindness to be removed. When
the fulness of the gentiles had entered, is when the blindness would be
removed: "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the
Gentiles be come in" (Rom 11:25).
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matk 10:15)
<)))))))><
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| User: "colp" |
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| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
14 Aug 2007 03:53:26 PM |
|
|
Fred A Stover wrote:
"colp" <colp@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1186986781.694279.112540@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 13, 5:22 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:
"colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1186976968.800777.24710@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 13, 1:18 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:
"ResLight" <rday...@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:RZKvi.22117$ZL5.2081@fe54.usenetserver.com...
"colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1186898784.977519.283840@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 12, 4:11 pm, "ResLight" <rday...@reject.reslight.net>
wrote:
Yes, Jesus is not EHYEH. EHYEH (Yahweh) sent Jesus.
No. These verses should be considered without doctrine.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham
was, I am.
John 8:58
Yes, there is no reason to add to the scripture a doctrine that
Jesus
was
saying that he was EHYEH (Yahweh). Such a doctrine has to be added
to
and
read into what Jesus said.
Jesus said He is LORD God
Not AFAIK.
, as did the prophet who prophesied His first
coming.
You mean Isaiah 40:3? "The way" can be figurative, meaning the
unfolding of a plan rather than the arrival of YHWH himself.
No, Malachi who prophesied the coming of LORD God [EL YH] before the day
of
the Lord, which the scribes misread as Elijah [ELYH]: "Why then say the
scribes that Elias must first come?" (Matt 17:10).
Why do you think that EL YH means YHWH Elohim? When the name is used
two parts in Genesis 2 it starts with yod, not aleph.
I don't understand your question. In Genesis 2, I only see `elohim and
Yahweh, but I'm relying on the Strong's reference in with my Bible program.
I'm referring to the ordering of YHWH and Elohim as a compound name in
Genesis 2. The yod-heh of YHWH preceeds the aleph-lammed of Elohim,
unlike Elijah's name which is aleph-lammed-yod-heh.
It is the text of scriptures in the NT which tells me it is LORD God, not
Elijah, but. El, the singular of Elohim, is God and is used in this verse:
(Gen 35:7) and YH
is LORD and is used in this verse (Ps 68:4).
If Malachi 4:5 referred to anyone other than Elijah (ELYH), wouldn't
Yeshua have corrected them as to the true identity in Matthew 17?
He did, for the Lord is the redeemer who restores all things, but it
wouldn't be realized until it was time for the blindness to be removed. When
the fulness of the gentiles had entered, is when the blindness would be
removed: "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the
Gentiles be come in" (Rom 11:25).
Ah, no wonder you're confused, treating Paul's writings like they were
kosher.
Paul was one of the false apostles of Rev 2:2. He repeatedly
misrepresented scripture in order to support his own doctrine.
http://solder.ath.cx/pages/paul.html
.
|
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
14 Aug 2007 11:01:04 PM |
|
|
"colp" <colp@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1187124806.665638.64900@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Fred A Stover wrote:
"colp" <colp@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1186986781.694279.112540@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 13, 5:22 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:
"colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1186976968.800777.24710@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 13, 1:18 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:
"ResLight" <rday...@reject.reslight.net> wrote in message
news:RZKvi.22117$ZL5.2081@fe54.usenetserver.com...
"colp" <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1186898784.977519.283840@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 12, 4:11 pm, "ResLight" <rday...@reject.reslight.net>
wrote:
Yes, Jesus is not EHYEH. EHYEH (Yahweh) sent Jesus.
No. These verses should be considered without doctrine.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham
was, I am.
John 8:58
Yes, there is no reason to add to the scripture a doctrine
that
Jesus
was
saying that he was EHYEH (Yahweh). Such a doctrine has to be
added
to
and
read into what Jesus said.
Jesus said He is LORD God
Not AFAIK.
, as did the prophet who prophesied His first
coming.
You mean Isaiah 40:3? "The way" can be figurative, meaning the
unfolding of a plan rather than the arrival of YHWH himself.
No, Malachi who prophesied the coming of LORD God [EL YH] before the
day
of
the Lord, which the scribes misread as Elijah [ELYH]: "Why then say
the
scribes that Elias must first come?" (Matt 17:10).
Why do you think that EL YH means YHWH Elohim? When the name is used
two parts in Genesis 2 it starts with yod, not aleph.
I don't understand your question. In Genesis 2, I only see `elohim and
Yahweh, but I'm relying on the Strong's reference in with my Bible
program.
I'm referring to the ordering of YHWH and Elohim as a compound name in
Genesis 2. The yod-heh of YHWH preceeds the aleph-lammed of Elohim,
unlike Elijah's name which is aleph-lammed-yod-heh.
Okay, now I follow, and I managed to answer the question withlout
understanding it (it's the next part set off by >>'s
It is the text of scriptures in the NT which tells me it is LORD God,
not
Elijah, but. El, the singular of Elohim, is God and is used in this
verse:
(Gen 35:7) and YH
is LORD and is used in this verse (Ps 68:4).
If Malachi 4:5 referred to anyone other than Elijah (ELYH), wouldn't
Yeshua have corrected them as to the true identity in Matthew 17?
He did, for the Lord is the redeemer who restores all things, but it
wouldn't be realized until it was time for the blindness to be removed.
When
the fulness of the gentiles had entered, is when the blindness would be
removed: "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of
the
Gentiles be come in" (Rom 11:25).
Ah, no wonder you're confused, treating Paul's writings like they were
kosher. > Paul was one of the false apostles of Rev 2:2. He repeatedly
misrepresented scripture in order to support his own doctrine.
No, it is Christ's words (not recorded by Paul) which reveal it is LORD God,
, the redeemer who restores all things, and the one prophesied to come by
the law and all the prophets til the prophet John. What I cited in Romans
spoke to the time of the revelation, and that it was for a specific time can
be discerned from what Matthew wrote.
There is no confusion about Paul being the apostle selected by the Lord,
Himself, as the twelth apostle, replacing Judas.
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matk 10:15)
<)))))))><
.
|
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| User: "colp" |
|
| Title: Re: Yes But, WHO IS JESUS (REALLY)? |
15 Aug 2007 03:22:41 AM |
|
|
Fred A Stover wrote:
"colp" <colp@solder.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:1187124806.665638.64900@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
It is the text of scriptures in the NT which tells me it is LORD God,
not
Elijah, but. El, the singular of Elohim, is God and is used in this
verse:
(Gen 35:7) and YH
is LORD and is used in this verse (Ps 68:4).
If Malachi 4:5 referred to anyone other than Elijah (ELYH), wouldn't
Yeshua have corrected them as to the true identity in Matthew 17?
He did, for the Lord is the redeemer who restores all things, but it
wouldn't be realized until it was time for the blindness to be removed.
When
the fulness of the gentiles had entered, is when the blindness would be
removed: "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of
the
Gentiles be come in" (Rom 11:25).
Ah, no wonder you're confused, treating Paul's writings like they were
kosher. > Paul was one of the false apostles of Rev 2:2. He repeatedly
misrepresented scrip | | | | | |
