| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Frank" |
| Date: |
01 Jan 2006 07:35:22 PM |
| Object: |
YHVH Yeshua |
God the Son:
But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last
for ever and ever,"
(Hebrews 1:8 NIV)
God the One and Only:
No one has ever seen God,
but God the One and Only,
who is at the Father's side,
has made him known.
(John 1:18)
YHVH Yeshua:
....my eyes have seen the King,
the LORD Almighty.
(Isaiah 6:5)
Isaiah...saw Jesus' glory
and spoke about him.
(John 12:41)
--
http://roines.home.mindspring.com
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| User: "Reslight" |
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| Title: Re: YHVH Yeshua |
02 Jan 2006 12:53:00 PM |
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For some reason, I am having difficulty getting my messages to go through;
please pardon me if this should appear twice.
"Frank" <roines@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:ur%tf.1260$%W1.83@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
God the Son:
But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last
for ever and ever,"
(Hebrews 1:8 NIV)
This is Yahweh speaking to his Son, whom he anoints a Mighty "ELOHIM" over
his fellows. There is nothing here about "God the Son" as that expression is
used by trinitarians and some others, as though Jesus was the Supreme Being.
See my earlier post:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.christian/msg/48d520990b688eeb?hl=en&
http://tinyurl.com/a5mcz
God the One and Only:
No one has ever seen God,
but God the One and Only,
who is at the Father's side,
has made him known.
(John 1:18)
The above is evidently quoted from the "New International Version" of the
Bible. According to this rendering, God the One and Only is Son of the Only
True God -- the only true God who sent God the One and Only (John 17:1,3),
to make known the only true God who sent God the One and Only. Such a
translation, in effect, is saying that God the One and Only made known God
who is not seen. We wonder who is God that is not seen, in comparison to God
the One and Only? Are there two only true Gods, one that is seen and another
that is seen? It should be self-evident that there is something wrong with
the way this rendered, and even many trinitarians will not accept this
rendering.
The NIV does have two footnotes concerning John 1:18:
John 1:18 Or the Only Begotten
John 1:18 Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son
John 1:18
theon oudeis hewraken pwpote monogenees theos
GOD NO ONE HAS SEEN AT ANY TIME; ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD
2316 3762 3708 4455 3439 2316
ho wn eis ton kolpon tou patros ekeinos
THE (ONE) BEING INTO THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER THAT (ONE)
3588 1511_1 1519 3588 2859 3588 3962 1565
exeegeesato
EXPLAINED.
1834
Westcott & Hort Interlinear, as found on the Bible Students Library CDs.
The vast majority of Greek manuscripts read "HUIOS" [Son] instead of
"THEOS"; however, many older manuscripts do have "THEOS" here, not "HUIOS".
John first tells us that no one has seen God, and then that there is
another, who is "MONOGENES THEOS", who has declared, or made known God, who
cannot be seen. This MONOGENES THEOS is in the bosom of the Father.
Of course, Jesus is not in a physical "bosom" of the Father, but the word
"bosom" is being used figuratively, expressing a closeness of relationship,
as a loyal son is to a father.
It should be clear that THEOS that is not seen refers to the Father of
Jesus. It should further be understood that THEOS applied to the Son is not
in the same sense as applied to the Father. Jesus, before coming to the
earth, was sanctified by the God who cannot be seen, and sent into the world
of mankind. (John 1:9,10; 10:36) Jesus is now at the right hand of Yahweh,
highly exalted by Yahweh as a trusted servant. -- Psalm 110:1; Isaiah 9:7;
Daniel 7:14; Acts 2:32-36; 5:31; Philippians 2:9.
The holy spirit reveals through the scriptures that Jesus receives his
inheritance and dominion (power) from Yahweh. His power and authority is
given to him by his God, his Supreme Being. Jesus is not Yahweh [his God and
Father] who gives him this dominion, all authority and power (with the
evident exception of God himself -- 1 Corinthians 15:27), yet the exercise
of this power and authority by Jesus is all to the praise of Yahweh, the God
and Father of the Lord Jesus. The Bible writers never claimed that Jesus is
the ultimate "source" of his own power. -- Psalm 2:6-8; 45:7; 110:1,2;
Isaiah 9:6,7; 11:2; 42:1; 61:1-3; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14; Matthew
12:28; 28:28; Luke 1:32; 4:14,18; 5:17; John 3:34; 5:19,27,30; 10:18,36-38;
Acts 2:22; 10:38; Romans 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:27; 2 Corinthians 13:4;
Colossians 1:15,16; 2:10; Ephesians 1:17-22; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews
1:2,4,6,9; 1 Peter 3:22.
YHVH Yeshua:
...my eyes have seen the King,
the LORD Almighty.
(Isaiah 6:5)
my eyes have seen the King, Yahweh of Hosts. (World English Bible
translation)
Isaiah saw Yahweh, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus.
Isaiah...saw Jesus' glory
and spoke about him.
(John 12:41)
But though he had done so many signs before them, yet they didn't believe in
him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke,
"[Yahweh], who has believed our report? To whom has the arm of [Yahweh] been
revealed?" (Isaiah 53:1) For this cause they couldn't believe, for Isaiah
said again, "He [Yahweh] has blinded their eyes and he hardened their heart,
Lest they should see with their eyes, And perceive with their heart, And
would turn, And I would heal them." (Isaiah 6:9,10; see Matthew 13:15; Acts
28:27) Isaiah said these things when he saw his glory, and he spoke of him.
John 12:37-41
World English Bible translation
"These things" that John speaks of above pertain to two different chapters
of Isaiah as quoted by John: Isaiah 6 and Isaiah 53. Thus the time being
spoken of when Isaiah saw the glory of Yahweh in Jesus covers all the time
recorded at least from Isaiah chapter 6 to Isaiah chapter 53.
John did see Yahweh's glory in a vision. This is probably what is meant when
John spoke of "his glory", that is, Yahweh's glory.
There is no indication that John's intent was to try to show that Jesus was
Yahweh. His intent was to show how Yahweh had prophesied through Isaiah
concerning the blindness of Israel as a whole repecting the arm of Yahweh.
The "arm of Yahweh" represents Yahweh's power and rulership. -- Psalm 10:15;
Ezekiel 30:21; Jeremiah 48:25.
John quotes from two different chapters of Isaiah: chapters 6 aand 53. Verse
40 is indirectly derived from Isaiah 6:10. John refers to this to show why
the Jews cannot believe in Jesus -- by whom the arm of Yahweh is made known.
It is because Yahweh has concealed the truth from them. Verse 41, then
refers back to Isaiah 6:10 [not Isaiah 53:1], in the context of which Isaiah
had seen the glory of Yahweh. In Isaiah 6:8, it is Isaiah that says: "Here I
am, send me!", to Adonai when asked who will go to tell the people
concerning "us". -- that is, Adonai and all the in the temple glory just
seen by Isaiah.
There is some difference of opinion as to whether Adonai [or Adoni] in
Isaiah 6:1,8 refers to Jesus or Yahweh. For the present, we will assume that
they do refer to Yahweh. Thus Isaiah says he will speak of Yahweh to the
people, which would correspond to the John's last remark in John 12:41, "and
he [Yahweh] spoke of him [Jesus]." After which Yahweh lets Isaiah know that
the people will hear, but not understand, and in effect says the he [Yahweh]
has blinded them, etc., which is the verse referenced indirectly in John
12:40. In view of this, it is proble that John, in saying "his glory", was
referring back to the God of Jesus, Yahweh, mentioned in John 12:38 as well
as in the one who did the blinding in John 12:40. Thus "his glory" spoken of
in John 12:42 would be the glory of Yahweh that Isaiah saw, and not the
glory of Jesus at all.
Nevertheless, many individuals did believe in Jesus, as John states in John
12:42. However, the present evil world is not the time when Jesus and his
saints are revealed to all -- only a few believe. Their revealing to the
world will be in the next age -- while Satan is abyssed, for which time the
world is ignorantly waiting for. (Romans 8:19-22; Revelation 20:1-3; Isaiah
2:2-4; 11:9; 25:7) Thus in this present age, the world is still blinded by
Satan's deceptions. -- 2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 12:9.
But what if John was referring to the glory of Jesus, and not to the glory
of Yahweh? From this viewpoint we need to note in the Isaiah scene, verse
one does not have the Hebrew tetragrammaton for Yahweh, but "the Lord"
sitting on the throne. Some translations put Yahweh here, but the Great
Isaiah Scroll (Dead Sea Scroll) does not have Yahweh here*, but rather
adonai (or adoni). The scribes who added the vowel points to try to
distinguish adonai and adoni did so many centuries after Jesus was on earth.
They added the vowel point in each place where they believed the text
referred to Yahweh, but their work is not infallible, so it is possible that
their addition of the vowel point in Isaiah 6:1 is actually an error on
their part. Thus, we conclude that Isaiah actually referred to "my Lord",
regarding the coming Messiah, as did David in Psalm 110:1. Now it is
declared that "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, F6
who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." (John 1:18, New
King James Version. We should then understand that Isaiah saw the glory of
God "in the face of Jesus Christ," who is "the brightness of the Father’s
glory and the express image of his person." (See 2 Corinthians 4:6) In
Isaiah 6:8 also it is Adonai (or adoni, my Lord, the Lord Jesus) who gives
the message and pronounces the judgment. Therefore. we believe that adonai
as it appears in the Masoretic text of Isaiah 6:1,8 should actually be
adoni, referring to Isaiah's Lord (as David refers to "my Lord" in Psalm
110:1), that is, Jesus.
==========
*The Great Isaiah Scroll supports that the word rendered "Lord" in Isaiah
6:1,8 is not Yahweh, but that it was originally Adonai (High Lord), or
possibly, Adoni (my Lord). In the original Hebrew, without the added
consonants, the words Adonai and Adoni are spelled the same. The Masoretes
added the vowel point to form the word Adonai in places they thought the
word applied to Yahweh.
http://reslight.net/adonay134.html
Christian love,
Ronald
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: YHVH Yeshua |
01 Jan 2006 08:14:49 PM |
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Frank wrote:
God the Son:
But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last
for ever and ever,"
(Hebrews 1:8 NIV)
===>The only "Son" that could refer to is
YHWH, one of the sons of the Canaanite
father god "EL".
Definitely not to the IESOUS fellow from Galilee,
executed for sedition by the Romans. -- L.
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| User: "Frank" |
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| Title: Re: YHVH Yeshua |
01 Jan 2006 10:06:09 PM |
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Then Jesus told him,
"Because you have seen me,
you have believed;
blessed are those who have not seen
and yet have believed."
(John 20:29 NIV)
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