| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Timothy Sutter" |
| Date: |
19 Sep 2004 10:34:47 AM |
| Object: |
your trust is well placed |
you trust this person,
and your trust is well placed.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: your trust is well placed |
20 Sep 2004 08:04:10 AM |
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#> you trust this person,
#> and your trust is well placed.
this ends up addressing two aspects.
first you address the nature of this trust
and find it can be traced back to God and the
beginning of creation and then you find that
because you can trace this sort of detail back
to the same old story, that you can say that
this strengthens the view of the same old story
as that much more representative of the 'truth'.
meaning, because you can add another detail
to your description, that your description more
and more resembles te way things are.
so anyway;
there's trust, and for you, the human being who
is just waking up from a long nap, this trust is
centered entirely in you. meaning, you have yet
to actually place your trust in anyone as of yet.
so, you decide to trust another person whom
you've only just met and of whom you have
limited prior knowledge .
at first, this trust is purely, faith based, on your part.
to keep this as simple as possible for now,
we won't mention that you don't know yourself
all that well seeing as how you just woke up
from a long nap and you've never placed your
trust in anyone else before.
so, just stash that detail in the back of your mind.
right now, as a given, we say that you can trust your self.
this because we first want to address how God
could see things, and then, maybe we can come
back and look at what can go wrong for us.
like we keep one variable fixed so we can
look at the way an other variable behaves.
our old convoluted friend.
just remember, everyone knows and
can cite what dear Paul said about things;
"we see thru a glass and darkly,
....but then clearly for we shall
see God as God is"
so, we've never denied that we as human beings
can get a somewhat filtered image depending,
in part, on how much rubble is in your way.
we simply suggest that as we use and hone
our sensory apparatus, both physical and spiritual,
that we can place more credence in what these tell us.
and, so, we begin to clear away the rubble
and get a more unobstructed view.
and that is the second part of the first sentence.
anyway, in the same manner as we traced "Love"
back to an image of God, and said that God as
complete 'parental' figure could be viewed as having
a nature that seems to be a Unity of two unique and
complementary identities that together form a third
total identitity which is all simply One God,
we can now look at trust as if that stems
from this perfect Love which is God.
just as if you were to call both
of your parents, "the Father"
only "the Father" is Justice and Mercy,
Word and Spirit, Love and Love and
sees no conflict.
whereas, human beings are lacking completeness,
and so, in general and quite often, the parental
figure we see is disjointed and polarized.
right off the bat, you see two people, where in God,
no one at all knows the full depths of God but God
and to whomever God reveals God.
so, i wrote a piece on a view of God
analogous to a marriage of sorts.
what's sort of funny, is that we never 'see'
any thing of the complete "the Father"
but have been gifted with "the Son"
who is that perfected -Image- of the
complete "the Father"
God doesn't need to split imagery up
into pink is for boys and blue is for girls.
God doesn't say, "Mercy is a female
quality and Justice is a male quality"
this because these qualities have zero
dependance upon sexual gender identification.
not even sure that a billy goat actually
could recognize such a thing as justice
or that a lady lion has any knowledge
of that which is mercy.
so, when and if we suggest that "the Father"
is a -complete- parental figure, we still don't
split this figure up into light and dark meat.
we have no right to categorize aspects
of God's own spirit into classes that are
dictated by our own flesh.
so, anyway, God trusts God as if the knowledge
were so intimate that no apparent component
could possibly hide anything from the other.
'they' have always known each other
so much so that no thing else can even
distinguish that there is any sort
of bifurcation at all.
so, back to you and other human beings.
obviously, you cannot claim an intimate
knowledge with someone you have just met,
and you can claim that there are, most definitely,
two people and not some singular entity.
but, in this example, you can claim that you
have trust and that you know what trust is
and that you can use your trust with someone
whom you have only just met.
long story short;
what begins as a faith issue on your part
grows into a knowledge issue on both parts.
where your faith is transformed into knowledge
by successful interactions of uncertain designs
coming into fruition.
uncertain only because they have yet to appear.
i haven't finished this.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: your trust is well placed |
21 Sep 2004 08:54:51 AM |
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#> you trust this person,
#> and your trust is well placed.
first you address the nature of this trust
and find it can be traced back to God and the
beginning of creation and then you find that
because you can trace this sort of detail back
to the same old story, that you can say that
this strengthens the view of the same old story
as that much more representative of the 'truth'.
anyway, as a side note;
as an example,
for no good reason,
there are 65 people with red/green color blindness
and 3 people with regular twenty-twenty vision.
independantly, all of them look at an
array of spots that are red and green.
65 people see a blur and 3 people see
a picture of a red apple on a green pie plate.
by consensus, the 'true' representation
is taken to be that of the blur.
but the 3 people who see the apple on
the pie plate offer up a consistent and
detailed description of what they see.
so what?
can anyone convince, with persuasive language,
that the 65 who see a blur are not seeing a blur?
they are seeing a blur.
for them, what they see is a blur and
that is what the array represents to them.
for them, the blur is the 'truth'
what may trouble you here is
the idea of 'truth by consensus'
not that each individual does or
does not see what they see.
but which group understanding
more closely represents reality?
and you have 4% of people saying;
"it's an apple on a pie plate"
and 96% saying; "it's a blur"
and the simple fact that the 4% can never
use persuasive language, nor forceful action,
to make the 96% see the apple on the pie plate.
and by consensus, the 'truth' is taken to be; 'it's a blur'
so, what the 4% decide is to change the colors
of the apple on the pie plate to black and white
and then show that to the 96%.
the 96% all see the image of the apple on the plate.
and now, by concensus, the 'truth' is that the
image represents an apple on a pie plate.
and they all lived happily ever after.
of course, we could have said that the 4% were color blind
and the 96% saw the apple on the pie plate and the 4% wormed
their way into academia and proclaimed that everyone who believed
what they saw was a clear and distinct image were all stupid
and uneducated into the fact that the image was a blur and
that the truth of the blur was the only truth and that this
truth must be spread to all people regardless of any fact
such as their seeing a clear and distinct image of an apple
on a pie plate, even going so far as to openly persecute
anyone who said they saw an apple on a pie plate.
but then you'd have to cut out the part
about them all living happily ever after.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: your trust is well placed |
22 Sep 2004 11:29:09 AM |
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#> you trust this person,
#> and your trust is well placed.
anyway, in the same manner as we traced "Love"
back to an image of God, and said that God as
complete 'parental' figure could be viewed as having
a nature that seems to be a Unity of two unique and
complementary identities that together form a third
total identitity which is all simply One God,
we can now look at trust as if that stems
from this perfect Love which is God.
as another little side remark, what may
be sort of funny is that God is something
like the twisted helical stranded structure
of the dna molecule.
and i mean -like-
not identical to.
like this sort of thing;
fixed width font;
___ ___ ___
....___/ \____/ \___/ \___...
\___/ \___/ \___/
look, there are places where it's just one line
and then branchings which give a virtual impression
of duality, and union joining and separations
are inherent aspects of God's own make-up.
and you see this sort of thing
over and over again in Genesis.
divide unify divide unify divide unify...
the immediate conclusion we -don't-
jump to is that God is at war with God.
no moreso than one could conclude that
cell division is a phenomenon associated
with conflict and animosities.
just that this idea of apparent division
is that phenomenon which proves that God
is One God.
Love as Justice and Mercy more reflects
the splitting of white light into component
colors than any disintegration into total darkness.
but you've heard these things before.
and we can begin to see the forms
of God's initiation of the creation.
as examples, not that God
-is- electromagnetic radiation,
but that God's own personality and
Spirit may -resemble- things of this nature.
so, say we do have something like
white light splitting into multiplex colors.
and then we have God, splitting out a variety
of independant personality structures which
each resemble -like- a color.
like several independant facets of God's
own nature each get a being of their own,
not that God cedes away this facet of God's
personality, but that God recognizes it as a
structured portion, splits it out and gives
it a spirit of it's own.
God still maintaining God's totallity.
i'm still meddling with this bit.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: your trust is well placed |
22 Sep 2004 06:43:11 PM |
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look, there are places where it's just one line
and then branchings which give a virtual impression
of duality, and union joining and separations
are inherent aspects of God's own make-up.
Love as Justice and Mercy more reflects
the splitting of white light into component
colors than any disintegration into total darkness.
just as a for instance; [fixed width font]
Mercy ------ Joy ------ Justice
/ \ / \
/ \ / \
Spirit \ / Word
/ \ / \ /
/ \Justice --- Patience--- Mercy/
Love__/_____________\____________________/_________Love
\ / \
\ /Mercy --- Patience--- Justice\
\ / \ / \
Word / \ Spirit
\ / \ /
\ / \ /
Justice ------ Joy ------ Mercy
anyway, i could add in things like
peace, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness and self-control, and make
a very fine wiring diagram.
seeing as these would be
considered 'fruit of the Spirit'
then we can safely consider
them as attributes the
Spirit has or is.
but, "my words are spirit"
so, anyway, you get the general idea.
it's just that in God as Total Preeminent Being,
God is Both God and 'neighbor', that is,
Love for God and Love for 'neighbor' are
tied together in an apparent duality of sorts.
but 'they' are One God,
and we can't even suggest that a given
attribute is the sole possession of 'part'
of God, because 'they' are not parted.
but we can speak of it as a complementary
nature with apparent forks which are, in themselves,
expressions of this Love which is God in totallity.
and then we come to address the Creation.
again.
i'll work on it...
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: your trust is well placed |
23 Sep 2004 07:31:26 AM |
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anyway, it seemed compelling so i tried to meddle with it.
whats funny is that to a first approximation,
this diagram below sort of models the "Mind of Christ."
it is funny becuause it seems to have two hemispheres
and it's all interconnected and convoluted like a brain.
'first approximation'
just as a for instance; [fixed width font]
--------------------------------------------
Mercy --- Joy Faithfulness -- Self-control Patience --- Justice
/ \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \
Spirit \/ / \ Word
/ \ / \ / \ / \
/ Justice -- Peace Kindness -- Goodness Gentleness --- Mercy \
Love_/_____________\ \ \ /__________Love
\ / \ \ \ /
\ Mercy -- Peace Kindness -- Goodness Gentleness ---- Justice /
\ / \ / \ / \ /
Word / \ \ / Spirit
\ / \ / \ /
\ / \ / \ /
Justice --- Joy Faithfulness -- Self-control Patience --- Mercy
--------------------------------------------
see, if you consider that God thinks in a manner somewhat
generalized by this diagram, you can easily see that God
is not in some interminable argument with God.
and God's Creativity is an expression of this Love.
see, the interpersonal adversary forsook
this Love for a parade of Self.
which i would like to look at in a bit.
the mind of the adversary takes
on a quarrelsome and conflicted nature.
internally darkened.
in a bit...
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: your trust is well placed |
23 Sep 2004 07:45:07 AM |
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<pre>
[this should take care of any font width problems]
anyway, it seemed compelling so i tried to meddle with it.
whats funny is that to a first approximation,
this diagram below sort of models the "Mind of Christ."
it is funny becuause it seems to have two hemispheres
and it's all interconnected and convoluted like a brain.
'first approximation'
just as a for instance; [fixed width font]
--------------------------------------------
Mercy --- Joy Faithfulness -- Self-control Patience --- Justice
/ \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \
Spirit \/ / \ Word
/ \ / \ / \ / \
/ Justice -- Peace Kindness -- Goodness Gentleness --- Mercy \
Love_/_____________\ \ \ /__________Love
\ / \ \ \ /
\ Mercy -- Peace Kindness -- Goodness Gentleness ---- Justice /
\ / \ / \ / \ /
Word / \ \ / Spirit
\ / \ / \ /
\ / \ / \ /
Justice --- Joy Faithfulness -- Self-control Patience --- Mercy
--------------------------------------------
see, if you consider that God thinks in a manner somewhat
generalized by this diagram, you can easily see that God
is not in some interminable argument with God.
and God's Creativity is an expression of this Love.
see, the interpersonal adversary forsook
this Love for a parade of Self.
which i would like to look at in a bit.
the mind of the adversary takes
on a quarrelsome and conflicted nature.
internally darkened.
in a bit...
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: your trust is well placed |
27 Sep 2004 07:13:31 AM |
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see, if you consider that God thinks in a manner somewhat
generalized by this diagram, you can easily see that God
is not in some interminable argument with God.
and God's Creativity is an expression of this Love.
before anything else,
you may as well consider this,
that God foresaw the potential for the Creation
to be a somewhat harrowing process and yet, went
ahead and carried it through anyway.
seeing through God's own potential for discomfort
in bringing children to fruit on the vine,
and entering into it anyway, with the
firm foresight of a beautiful Creation.
not and never;
"let's rob main cheat and steal so that some may live"
but always and ever;
"this is quite likely to be a difficult and even
painful process, but there'll be no more tears
when your hair's all clean."
not that God is naturally predisposed to pain and hurt,
but that God is naturally predisposed to the Love
which would see though such eventides to
the Glory of a New Day in Creation.
so, surely God understands your griefs and
your sorrows, but God sees through that
to the surety of Lazurus awakening
from his sleep.
in case you wondered.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: brief interlude |
28 Sep 2004 07:42:25 AM |
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'masters of the universe'
well, it falls to you to police
this %&%&$$ little world where
people still kill each other over
tennis shoes.
congratulations.
play nice.
do a good job.
make us all proud.
hurray hurray hurray.
and you thought it was
all peeled grapes and
belly dancers.
it's not.
think about it.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: voting as a civic duty |
29 Sep 2004 07:30:43 AM |
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so anyway;
as far as voting is concerned,
for the christian;
given that Jesus as Creator is responsible
for the reality of 'government' in itself,
in that the Creator devised 'government' in
the powers and principalities for God's own
purposes, we can say that 'government' in itself
is a good thing and not only recognized
by God but sanctioned by God. [collossians 1:15-18]
any misuse of government authority
will be visited upon as God sees fit.
just as powers and principalities who
walk askance of the sovereign nature
of The Divine gets its just recompense
in the form of Jesus -our- Savior. [some epistle]
be that as it may,
for the christian who sees fit to acknowledge
'the Emperor' as sovereign and to willingly
cooperate with whatever government system
they may find themselves among, [Romans 13]
you may consider it your civic -duty- to cast
a ballot in an election sanctioned by 'the Emperor'
where, in this case, the 'democratic' government
functions as 'the Emperor'
if this causes you to cast an empty ballot
for no candidate at all, so be it, it can
still be viewed as your civic duty to cast
any ballot at all.
meaning, in the United States of America,
and any nation who holds such 'democratic' elections,
the -government- considers it your civic duty
to cast ballots in elections, and therefore,
if you mean to cooperate with 'the Emperor'
in whatever system, go ahead and cast a ballot
and do not consider that this -forces- you
to become mired in 'worldly' affairs and politics.
remembering; don't view this as a matter
of what you can -get- from those elected,
as that is not your way, and anyway, God
is the source of all things good and Holy
and not the government system,
but, you may very well have things of a
beneficial nature which you can offer
up to those in authority,
even if this is only your moral support and
not bringing them undue headaches inasmuch
as such jobs are already difficult as they are.
Romans 13
that is, there's already difficulty in dealing
with those who oppose governing authority,
so, you, as christian, do not need to be
contributing to the troubles and woes.
quite the contrary.
anyway, you should probably vote.
even if it is for no candidate but an empty ballot.
as a witness.
of course, nothing prevents you
from supporting a particular person.
and, of course, nothing prevents a
christian from running a candidate.
in fact, such could be construed as
part of your civic duty as well.
....
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: voting as a civic duty |
29 Sep 2004 08:58:55 AM |
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for the christian who sees fit to acknowledge
'the Emperor' as sovereign and to willingly
cooperate with whatever government system
they may find themselves among, [Romans 13]
you may consider it your civic -duty- to cast
a ballot in an election sanctioned by 'the Emperor'
where, in this case, the 'democratic' government
functions as 'the Emperor'
just one little bit on this;
obviously, in this situation, you are
priveleged with the right to govern
yourselves as you see fit and you
don't have an autocrat dictating
matters to you.
it's sort of as if, with regards to Romans 13,
that you can consider the piece of paper with
all the funny writing on it and the granted
rights as 'The Emperor'
and it remains as your civic duty to vote,
somewhat like obeying the traffic regulations,
sure, you can run red lights, and sure, you can
chose not to vote, no one is forcing you to vote,
but, it's sort of a right and a duty.
but certainly the christian is also allowed
to participate in thier own governance.
it's a right and a privelege and a duty.
and what better chance to show
a 'free' people what freedom
actually is.
just how do 'free people' behave?
just wanted to belabor the obvious and
assure anyone who cares that they
are not -forced- to vote.
but that voting in 'democratic' elections
is a right, a privelege -and- a duty.
even if you vote for an empty ballot.
but certainly, christians should be quite
capable of governing themselves if
given the chance to do so.
and, you have been given this chance
by the framers of the constitution.
don't let it slip into obscurity.
returning to the catacombs
should not be our final option.
and, it isn't.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: psychosis of worldwide despotism |
29 Sep 2004 07:53:40 PM |
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just remember, notions of worldwide despotic
domination is not an american psychosis.
so, if you happen to hear the people who gave
the world napolean hitler and stalin et al
expressing some sort of reformed character
who wants to safeguard the planet from
-america's- hegemony;
no no no, that's -their- psychosis.
america was dragged into -their-
vile little conflicts in the past.
all birthed in -their- desire
to fulfill -their- despotic psychoses.
the vernacular has phrases...
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