On Mon, 31 May 2004 10:32:27 -0500,
"Zaphod-Prez-Universe" <zaphodB@safe-mail.net> posted
thusly:

No Dave you have it backwards, yes I have made accusations but the
accusations are concerning whether or not
you have the right to use the title of PASTOR. I maintain you don't. You

the one stating a fact, that fact being
that you are a Pastor, so I ask for your proof.

No, you didn't. You accused me, claimed I was not,
without asking for anything, then later, when you were
called on your accusations and realized that you could
not back them up, THEN asked if I could legally marry
someone.

We have been over this. It's all in the threads and
anyone can look and see it.

I have asked you to prove it
4 or 5 times now. Obviously you can't, you have refused to answer a

yes or no question, you try to derail the topic and do everything but
provide the proof to back up your claim that you are a pastor.

I'm sorry you are a liar and don't have the integrity to answer a simple
question or to back up your claim. Your continued evasion and dishonestly
only further the truth of the matter that you aren't a Pastor, never were
and are just another Troll and wank, hanging around on usenet pretended

be something they aren't. Want to answer my question? All it takes is a
simple yes or no?

Pastor Zaphod

PS. Dave all you have ever had to do is say, "No I'm not an ordained

or minister, but I do feel that I Shepard to people and spread God's

that's why I call my self a pastor." That's it, that is the honest thing

say, it would show honesty, integrity and a conviction in what you

All of which would have been admirable and in line with Christ teachings.

don't think I or anyone (except a *****) would fault you for that. It

be the right and honest thing to do. You just can't seem to do what's

and for that you are a wanking troll who is no more a pastor then me or

junkie down the street. Until you learn honesty and take a good long look

yourself you are doing a disservice to Christ and the Church.

More accusations, that you fail to back up. It is
clear that you have no integrity.

"Pastor Dave" <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:go8mb05eu58hrc3q4j9ngev3am1k09r7c0@4ax.com...

On Sun, 30 May 2004 19:38:55 -0500, "zaphod"
<zaphodB@safe-mail.net> posted thusly:


Once again, you make accusations and provide no proof.
You pretend that you merely asked a question and I
refused to answer. The fact is, that you made
accusations, to which I responded by demanding proof
and then instead of providing proof, you asked a
question, which I refuse to answer, until you either
back up your claims, or have the integrity to retract
them, which we both know you won't do, because you
don't have any integrity.

I will list your claims and number them, throughout
this message and I state again, that you need to either
back them up, or have the integrity to retract them.

I will also ask some questions, which are not to be
thought of as an answer to your claims, nor as being
related to my personal situation. They are merely
questions designed to make you think.

Everyone knows this and I am sure it has been pointed out before but.

There are two people who post here who call themselves Pastor Dave and
Pastor Frank, I would like to say for the record that they are not

pastors

or ministers in the sense that most people would thing that a pastor

would

be.

Does the majority of the secular world determine who is
a pastor?

My dictionary defines a pastor as
: a spiritual overseer; especially : a clergyman serving a local

or

parish

Why not try the Bible and see what it says.

So with that meaning in mind do the two people meet the definition?

Perhaps

in a literal since, I mean I could call myself a spiritual overseer, I
guess, but that wouldn't make me a pastor. At least no more a pastor

these two. I could bandage my sons leg but that doesn't make me a

The more important part and I could be wrong but I believe this to be

true,

the important part is that neither Dave or Frank serve at any church

parish as a spiritual overseers.

Claim #1: I do not serve a local church, or parish.

I'm thinking they would tell you that they are preaching the word of

and

dialoging with other Christians and that's why they are pastors. In a

very

real sense they would be telling the truth. What they are doing it

through the sin of omission. They don't do the follow with most people

would

think pastors do.

Neither of them have churches with regular members that they minister

weekly.

See Claim #1 above.

Question: Does a pastor need to be serving a local
church, to be doing the work of a pastor? I.e, Timothy
was a pastor, yet he went from church to church and did
not serve any one church permanently. Was Timothy not
a pastor?

Neither of them are recognized by the states they live in a pastors.

Claim #2: I am not recognized in the state I live in as
a pastor.

Question: Does the state determine who is and who isn't
a pastor?

Neither of them has been official ordained by a know and establish

religious

institution

Claim #3: I have not been officially ordained by a
known and established religious institution.

Question: Does a pastor have to be ordained by a
religious institution that satisfies Zaphod? Or does
it have to satisfy the state government, especially
considering that the Constitution prohibits any
government from making laws respecting the
establishment of religion? It seems that Zaphod
demands a state run and governed religion.

They do not perform, at least regularly many of that thing pastors

do

counseling people, performing funerals, baptizing people or

babies ect.

Claim #4: I do not do the duties of a pastor.

Question: As an example, not all Christians believe in
christening babies. I guess that means that those who
don't, aren't pastors?

Zaphod seems to think that a pastor must fill his
childhood conceived role of a pastor.

They might have done limited various on the above things but they

do

them regular and to a congregation they call their own.

Claim #5: Even if a pastor does the things listed, he
must have his own congregation, or he is not a pastor
when he does them.

Question: What about Timothy? He was a traveling
pastor. I guess he wasn't a pastor, because Zaphod
said so.

I have asked Dave 3x times a very simple question, that is,
Can you or have you ever performed a wedding and signed a marriage
certificate that was legal and binding in your state, Yes or No?

You have asked it to avoid answering to my response to
your accusations, which came before you asked the
question.

While he has responded, he has never answered the question, he just

seem to speak enough truth or have enough character of purpose to

honestly

answer the question with a simple yes or no. In fairness to Frank, I

believe

I have only asked the question of him once so he may not have had time

answer yet.

You are the one making accusations against me, without
a shred of proof and when I call you on it, you snip
the text and demand an answer to a question that you
didn't ask in your accusing message and then you wish
to talk about "character and honesty"?!

So what are we left with? A couple of jokers who want to present

themselves

as something they are not.
Like I said earlier I can cook an egg and call my self a chef I guess

put

a Band-Aid on my son and call myself a doctor but who am I kidding.

In my opinion they use these titles because they want the respect and
recognition that goes with the title, with out having done or doing

regular

the things that would earn them that respect.

See above.

Real pastors IMO

Don't claim that you are only saying it is your
opinion. Rather, you are accusing people of not being
pastors and making it to be a claim of fact.

Have gotten schooled at a half way decent school of religion and have

been

ORDAINED

Claim #6: I have not had an education from a Christian
institution.

Tell me, what school did any of those in the NT go to?
What school did Timothy go to? What school did
Polycarp go to? What about the disciple who learned
from him? What about the disciple that learned from
that man? What about the next? Tell me, when was the
first Christian education center set up for the sole
purpose of training people for the ministry? And where
was it? And what about the people who couldn't get
there? Were there no pastors anywhere else in the
world? Were all the people before that institution was
founded fakes?

They have a CHURCH. Yes a building that they work out of and hold

services

in

Claim #7: I don't have a church building that I perform
services out of.

Question: Tell me, when did this become a rule?

"Likewise greet the church that is in their house."
- Romans 16:5

It seems that churches were in houses. Also note, it
doesn't call the house the church. It says the church
that is in their house. The church is the body of
believers, not a building.

They have a following of people who consider them to be their

guides

Claim #8: I have no one who considers me to be their
spiritual guide.

Question: Isn't Jesus supposed to fill that role?

They perform MARRIAGES

Claim #9: I do not perform marriages.

They perform FUNERALS

This is covered by Claim #5.

They are valued and respected member of their communities NOT hanging

around

on usenet

Claim #10: I am not a valued and respected member of my
community.

Question: Was Paul a valued and respected member of his
community?

2 Corinthians 11:23-28

23) Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as beside
myself,) I am more! I have been in labors more
abundantly, in stripes above measure, in prisons more,
in deaths many times.
24) Five times from the Jews I received forty stripes
minus one.
25) Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was
stoned, three times I was shipwrecked. I have spent a
night and a day in the deep.
26) I have been in travels often; in dangers from
waters; in dangers from robbers; in dangers from my
race; in dangers from the heathen; in dangers in the
city; in dangers in the wilderness; in dangers on the
sea; in dangers among false brothers.
27) I have been in hardship and toil; often in
watchings; in hunger and thirst; often in fastings; in
cold and nakedness;

It seems as if Paul wasn't liked by a great number of
people. Take special note of v24. Paul was a Jew and
that would have been, "his community" who whipped him
five times and gave him the "40 - 1", which was
designed to humiliate him. It says that you deserve
the legal limit (which was 40 stripes), but that you
aren't even worth it.

Pastors are the people some of us go to for marriage counseling, help

with

grief after the lose of a loved one, for instruction in spiritual,

ethical

and moral problems and it is done every day.

Claim #11: No one comes to me for counseling, nor
instruction.

Dave and Frank want us to desperately believe they are the real

so

they can get all the perks and respect, without them having to do a

thing.

Claim #12: I don't do a thing.

This is the exact sort of lying and misdirection that makes some

think that all Christians are lying flakes. In usenet terms they are
wankers, they want us all to believe they are authorities on spiritual
matters because they slap the word "Pastor" before their names.

they

do this and engage in these deceptions and lies, it is quite clear

they

are not very spiritual people, they really don't live or understand

teachings of Jesus and except for starting trouble they are nothing

your

run of the mill usenet trolls.

Please people just because they answer everything with scripture, it

doesn't

make them authorities. It merely means they know how to copy and

Just because they can quote scripture, doesn't mean they are

or

have any more validity then anyone else
they are frauds.

Don't get sucked into their foolishness, if you need true help and

then find a local pastor at a real church and search there. If you

want

to beat up on some trolls and make them look more stupid then they

already

are, well then Frank and Dave are your boys.

I might have been mistaken in the criteria which I used to judge these

two

boobs but I don't think so. I will however out of fairness ask this

question

for the fourth or fifth time. Dave and Frank, can you please answer

following question and answer it with only a yes or no

You might be mistaken, but post it as if it is fact?

Have either of you performed a wedding and signed a message

for

any couple that was legal and recognized in the states that you live

You have made the claims, now back them up. You don't
get to ask questions, pretending that you are sincerely
and humbly seeking information. You have made
accusations against me. Now let us see if you are
honest or not.

It really is that simple and all I want is a yes or no answer.

If you back up your claims, then you will have your
answer. It would be a no. If you cannot back them up,
then admit that you are merely seeking to attack me.

Until you can provide some proof as to your claims of being true

then all we are left with is two guys who spout scripture kidding

themselves

into believing they have any credibility. You don't have to answer the
question but if you can not proved proof to your claims as to the

of

you being pastors then I can only assume you are lying.

And there it is, folks. Unless we prove his
accusations wrong, then we are guilty of them.

You know, I'll bet this is a guy who would claim to
stand up for all that is right in the legal system and
believes that a person should be innocent until proven
guilty. Yet, according to this message, he believes
that if HE makes accusations, then a person should
spend time in jail, because HE said it's true.

Time to stop lying guys,

And there it is, folks. There is no "might be wrong"
in his statements. He is saying that I am lying, plain
and simple.

Jesus wouldn't want you to do it. Most Christians
don't like the black eye you are giving Christianity and you lose
credibility a little more day but day. Like I said, if I asked Jesus

he

was a rabbi, yes or no. I bet he could have giving me a simple yes or

Do

you have at lest as much integrity as Jesus. Can you be honest and

answer the simple question?

You don't have to, yet everyone will know the color of your stripe if

don't. Any one who believes in good and talks with others can call
themselves a pastor and that O.K. so long as if pressed they fess up

admit that they are only using it in the sense that they feel like

are

pastors, NOT that they are real ordained ministers.

So gentlemen can one or both of you give me a simple one word answer

my

question above?
The choices are yes or no, that's all I need, nothing else, do either

you

have enough honesty, integrity and truth of
being to answer with a simple yes or no?

I am glad you made your attack. Because it shows that
you are bothered by what I say. And since your father
is the Devil, that means that I am preaching the truth
and he doesn't like it and so, moves you to try to
discredit me. But of course, any fool can see that you
haven't offered one shred of proof for your claims.

You have made 12 claims against me and stated them as
fact. If they are fact, then you should have no
problem providing said facts here and now.

Pastor Zaphod B. << See how ignorant it sounds

From you? Yes.


--

± Pastor Dave Raymond ±

"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

/}
@#######{]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\}

"We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected
the Sermon on the Mount... The world has acheived
brilliance without conscience. Ours is a world of
nuclear giants and ethical infants."
- General Omar Bradley



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--

± Pastor Dave Raymond ±

"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

/}
@#######{]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\}

"Paleontologists are traditionally famous (or infamous)
for reconstructing whole animals from the debris of
death. Mostly they cheat. ...If any event in life's
history resembles man's creation myths, it is this
sudden diversification of marine life when
multicellular organisms took over as the dominant
actors in ecology and evolution. Baffling (and
embarrassing) to Darwin, this event still dazzles us
and stands as a major biological revolution on a par
with the invention of self-replication
and the origin of the eukaryotic cell." (Bengtson,
Stefan, "The Solution to a Jigsaw Puzzle," Nature, vol.
345 (June 28, 1990), pp. 765-766)



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