| Topic: |
Sociology > Depression |
| User: |
"Mz R." |
| Date: |
06 Jun 2004 06:07:09 PM |
| Object: |
? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
Do they realize that it doesn't help?
"You should talk to someone"
"I want you to go here"
"I want you to call this person/place."
And then you do and it's a lot of hurry up and wait.
Or it's nothing at all.
"I'm sorry you don't QUALIFY."
"We'll see you in a month."
"We're all booked up, can't get you in."
"we'll see what we can do and let you know."
And people, the only time I will qualify is when my brains are
splattered across a railroad crossing.
Then it's all "Why didn't they TELL someone or SAY something?"
I did.
Over and over and over and over.
But any animal with an ounce of intelligence will stop doing the same
thing over and over if they realize it's not helping.
I love it when they ask you "Are you going to hurt yourself?"
Like I'd tell them.
the truth? I live every single day wondering if this is the day I get
the courage to end it. I think about sucide 24/7 and I tell NO ONE.
And what would be the point of telling them? So they can lock you up
and force you to take pills until you are suitably social again to be
pushed out into the dark?
***** it.
I'll play nice until it's time to say goodbye.
Sorry for being a morbid P.I.T.A.
hopelessness needs expression too.
Mz.r.
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| User: "Tim Kettring" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
06 Jun 2004 06:11:52 PM |
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"Mz R." <mz_rancid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2afa7d68.0406061507.51bf0101@posting.google.com...
Do they realize that it doesn't help?
"You should talk to someone"
"I want you to go here"
"I want you to call this person/place."
And then you do and it's a lot of hurry up and wait.
Or it's nothing at all.
"I'm sorry you don't QUALIFY."
"We'll see you in a month."
"We're all booked up, can't get you in."
"we'll see what we can do and let you know."
And people, the only time I will qualify is when my brains are
splattered across a railroad crossing.
Then it's all "Why didn't they TELL someone or SAY something?"
I did.
Over and over and over and over.
But any animal with an ounce of intelligence will stop doing the same
thing over and over if they realize it's not helping.
I love it when they ask you "Are you going to hurt yourself?"
Like I'd tell them.
the truth? I live every single day wondering if this is the day I get
the courage to end it. I think about sucide 24/7 and I tell NO ONE.
And what would be the point of telling them? So they can lock you up
and force you to take pills until you are suitably social again to be
pushed out into the dark?
***** it.
I'll play nice until it's time to say goodbye.
Sorry for being a morbid P.I.T.A.
hopelessness needs expression too.
Mz.r.
You are just all unstable about this husband thing . Weather it out , there
are better days ahead .
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| User: "BGumm" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
06 Jun 2004 09:29:01 PM |
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I am one of those persons that give out contact numbers. I am on a hotline
that not only gives reassurance calls to elderly, but folks that need med
reminders or just want someone to check in on them etc, but I take calls to
listen and to talk also. I also give out contact numbers. What you do with
them or what that paticular agency does from there I can't help. Sometimes we
hit and sometimes we don't and sometimes just by talking with one agency you
can be lead along to another agency.
Becky
"I have seen the sea when it is stormy and wild;
when it is quiet and serene; when it is dark and
moody. And in all its moods, I see myself."
-Martin Buxbaum
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| User: "Bev Thornton" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
06 Jun 2004 10:23:09 PM |
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Mz R. wrote:
Do they realize that it doesn't help?
No.
And then you do and it's a lot of hurry up and wait.
Or it's nothing at all.
Well, it depends on how you talk to them.
And people, the only time I will qualify is when my brains are
splattered across a railroad crossing.
No, then it's too late. Then it's just another nightmare for the coroner's
office, an ambulance crew, some cops, anyone who learns about it on the
news, and all the friends and family.
Then it's all "Why didn't they TELL someone or SAY something?"
I did.
Over and over and over and over.
Well, it depends on what you tell them.
But any animal with an ounce of intelligence will stop doing the same
thing over and over if they realize it's not helping.
Could be.
I love it when they ask you "Are you going to hurt yourself?"
Like I'd tell them.
the truth? I live every single day wondering if this is the day I get
the courage to end it. I think about sucide 24/7 and I tell NO ONE.
Then you haven't been telling the right thing to the people at the contact
numbers or the places where you have to wait or don't qualify.
You have to tell them the truth.
And what would be the point of telling them? So they can lock you up
and force you to take pills until you are suitably social again to be
pushed out into the dark?
***** it.
That's not what happens when you tell the doctor. If you tell the
receptionist you want to see the doctor because you are having troubling
thoughts of suicide you will get in as soon as they can get you in. But you
have to tell the receptionist that, any screening nurses, psychologists or
social workers too. When you get to the doctor, lay it all out. The doctor
will present you with some recommendations, they're like options for you.
The doctor can't force drugs on you.
You have to go in and tell them the truth right from the start and all the
way through. There is nothing to worry about, they've heard it all before
and have seen much worse. The only people who haven't are students on
practicum and you won't be seeing any of those if you tell the whole truth.
The only way they can do the right thing is if they really know what is
going on with you and you are the only person who can tell them that.
If you walk in under your own initiative asking for help, even if you tell
them that you have a plan, the ability and means, as long as you agree not
to do it until after your next appointment, you're free to go.
The best way to do it is to walk right in to a mental health clinic that
offers depression screenings. If you tell the receptionist that you have to
see a doctor because of troubling thoughts of suicide they will make time
for you.
--
<http://www.buddhanet.net/><http://www.dharmanet.org/><http://ecohimal.org>
<http://www.icrc.org><http://icbl.org><http://www.msf.org><http://rawa.org>
<http://gadenrelief.org/><http://act.greenpeace.org/><http://bushmeat.net/>
<http://peacebrigades.org><http://whalewatch.org><http://www.greenparty.ca>
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| User: "% surfs@uniserve" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
06 Jun 2004 10:30:47 PM |
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"Bev Thornton" <bevthornton@email.com> wrote in message
news:2ii5cuFn5ut2U1@uni-berlin.de...
Mz R. wrote:
Do they realize that it doesn't help?
No.
And then you do and it's a lot of hurry up and wait.
Or it's nothing at all.
Well, it depends on how you talk to them.
And people, the only time I will qualify is when my brains are
splattered across a railroad crossing.
No, then it's too late. Then it's just another nightmare for the coroner's
office, an ambulance crew, some cops, anyone who learns about it on the
news, and all the friends and family.
Then it's all "Why didn't they TELL someone or SAY something?"
I did.
Over and over and over and over.
Well, it depends on what you tell them.
But any animal with an ounce of intelligence will stop doing the same
thing over and over if they realize it's not helping.
Could be.
I love it when they ask you "Are you going to hurt yourself?"
Like I'd tell them.
the truth? I live every single day wondering if this is the day I get
the courage to end it. I think about sucide 24/7 and I tell NO ONE.
Then you haven't been telling the right thing to the people at the contact
numbers or the places where you have to wait or don't qualify.
You have to tell them the truth.
And what would be the point of telling them? So they can lock you up
and force you to take pills until you are suitably social again to be
pushed out into the dark?
***** it.
That's not what happens when you tell the doctor. If you tell the
receptionist you want to see the doctor because you are having troubling
thoughts of suicide you will get in as soon as they can get you in. But
you
have to tell the receptionist that, any screening nurses, psychologists or
social workers too. When you get to the doctor, lay it all out. The doctor
will present you with some recommendations, they're like options for you.
The doctor can't force drugs on you.
You have to go in and tell them the truth right from the start and all the
way through. There is nothing to worry about, they've heard it all before
and have seen much worse. The only people who haven't are students on
practicum and you won't be seeing any of those if you tell the whole
truth.
The only way they can do the right thing is if they really know what is
going on with you and you are the only person who can tell them that.
If you walk in under your own initiative asking for help, even if you tell
them that you have a plan, the ability and means, as long as you agree not
to do it until after your next appointment, you're free to go.
The best way to do it is to walk right in to a mental health clinic that
offers depression screenings. If you tell the receptionist that you have
to
see a doctor because of troubling thoughts of suicide they will make time
for you.
--
<http://www.buddhanet.net/><http://www.dharmanet.org/><http://ecohimal.org>
<http://www.icrc.org><http://icbl.org><http://www.msf.org><http://rawa.org>
<http://gadenrelief.org/><http://act.greenpeace.org/><http://bushmeat.net/>
<http://peacebrigades.org><http://whalewatch.org><http://www.greenparty.ca>
Mister Knowitall , telling others the best way
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| User: "RGBs Neighbot" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
06 Jun 2004 11:08:13 PM |
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In article <2ii5cuFn5ut2U1@uni-berlin.de>,
Bev Thornton <bevthornton@email.com> wrote:
The best way to do it is to walk right in to a mental health clinic that
offers depression screenings. If you tell the receptionist that you have
to see a doctor because of troubling thoughts of suicide they will make
time for you.
That can be dangerous, though. The burden of proof is then on you to
convince them that you're *not* a risk, and depending on what gets
written down and the mood of the person you wind up seeing (and, of
course, your own mood and presentation), you might wind up in trouble. I
would be very, very, very careful about admitting to suicidal thoughts,
even if that seems like the only way to get help. The last thing you
want to do is put someone in a "CYA" state of mind with respect to your
risk factor. I would DEFINITELY not admit to having a plan and the means
to kill yourself unless you want to be locked up. And they *can* give
you drugs against your will, oh they most certainly can.
As you may or may not recall, I know whereof I speak in this particular,
and what got me in trouble in fact was that exact approach, mentioning a
fear of suicidality to try to make sure I got the attention I needed. I
didn't even actually say I was suicidal, I merely said to the intake
nurse "It's so frustrating, I feel like unless I say I'm going to kill
myself, I won't get any help". This was recorded as "Patient says he
will commit suicide if not admitted" and horror ensued.
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
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| User: "Bev Thornton" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
06 Jun 2004 11:25:24 PM |
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RGB's Neighbot wrote:
That can be dangerous, though. The burden of proof is then on you to
convince them that you're *not* a risk, and depending on what gets
written down and the mood of the person you wind up seeing (and, of
course, your own mood and presentation), you might wind up in trouble. I
would be very, very, very careful about admitting to suicidal thoughts,
even if that seems like the only way to get help. The last thing you
want to do is put someone in a "CYA" state of mind with respect to your
risk factor. I would DEFINITELY not admit to having a plan and the means
to kill yourself unless you want to be locked up. And they *can* give
you drugs against your will, oh they most certainly can.
They can only force drugs on you two ways. One is after a committal and they
can't get that unless you're about to go do it, not if you're just thinking
about it 24/7 and can't get it out of your head and are willing to agree to
come back or call. They'd get in trouble if they did restrain someone who
did that. They have to be told the truth though. Exagerration or lying
about being about to go and do it right then will get a person locked-up.
A person can't get treated for suicidal ideation unless they tell the
physician that they have suicidal thoughts. It's that simple.
The psychiatrist has to be told the truth about everything so that the job
can be done properly. Otherwise, all that is being treated is a fiction the
client has created. That sort of treatment is pretty much doomed to
failure.
As you may or may not recall, I know whereof I speak in this particular,
and what got me in trouble in fact was that exact approach, mentioning a
fear of suicidality to try to make sure I got the attention I needed. I
didn't even actually say I was suicidal, I merely said to the intake
nurse "It's so frustrating, I feel like unless I say I'm going to kill
myself, I won't get any help". This was recorded as "Patient says he
will commit suicide if not admitted" and horror ensued.
Well, maybe you were misunderstood. Did you tell them you weren't about to
commit suicide?
--
<http://www.buddhanet.net/><http://www.dharmanet.org/><http://ecohimal.org>
<http://www.icrc.org><http://icbl.org><http://www.msf.org><http://rawa.org>
<http://gadenrelief.org/><http://act.greenpeace.org/><http://bushmeat.net/>
<http://peacebrigades.org><http://whalewatch.org><http://www.greenparty.ca>
.
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| User: "RGBs Neighbot" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
06 Jun 2004 11:48:23 PM |
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In article <2ii91lFmm8f5U1@uni-berlin.de>,
Bev Thornton <bevthornton@email.com> wrote:
They'd get in trouble if they did restrain someone who did that.
It takes a whole lot to get a hospital in trouble when it comes to this
sort of thing. All they have to say is that they drugged or restrained
you because they felt it was necessary for the safety of you or those
around, and there's a powerful presumption of justification. Forget
about suing or taking any sort of action in the courts. I'm not just
talking my own experiences here, I'm talking about what I learned from
talking with lawyers afterwards and what I read in various places.
Admitting to suicidality is, in effect, an almost unconditional waiver
of all rights, despite the fact that there are laws on the books
restricting use of drugs and such.
A person can't get treated for suicidal ideation unless they tell the
physician that they have suicidal thoughts. It's that simple.
The psychiatrist has to be told the truth about everything so that the job
can be done properly. Otherwise, all that is being treated is a fiction the
client has created. That sort of treatment is pretty much doomed to
failure.
My point is that you should be careful whom you tell this sort of thing
to until you've established some kind of trusting relationship. The
admission that you are actively suicidal can be very easily used against
you, and if police get involved, forget it.
Well, maybe you were misunderstood.
Yeah, I was misunderstood.
Did you tell them you weren't about to commit suicide?
By the time I found out they'd recorded this alleged assertion that I
was, it was too late. Next time, if there ever is a next time and I hope
to God there is no next time, I will know better. I was even tutored by
one cool doctor in the hospital on how to avoid accidentally saying
things that could get me locked up again.
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
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| User: "Bev Thornton" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 12:26:03 AM |
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RGB's Neighbot wrote:
In article <2ii91lFmm8f5U1@uni-berlin.de>,
Bev Thornton <bevthornton@email.com> wrote:
They'd get in trouble if they did restrain someone who did that.
It takes a whole lot to get a hospital in trouble when it comes to this
sort of thing. All they have to say is that they drugged or restrained
you because they felt it was necessary for the safety of you or those
around, and there's a powerful presumption of justification. Forget
about suing or taking any sort of action in the courts. I'm not just
talking my own experiences here, I'm talking about what I learned from
talking with lawyers afterwards and what I read in various places.
Admitting to suicidality is, in effect, an almost unconditional waiver
of all rights, despite the fact that there are laws on the books
restricting use of drugs and such.
Wait a minute. Being suicidal, in a state of suicidality, is different from
just thinking about it 24/7. That's called suicidal ideation. Suicidal
people are indeed locked-down, because they are about to go out and do it.
Being 'suicidal' means being in immediate danger.
The post that started this thread and "Why it's ok to check out" aren't
declarations of intent to go out and commit suicide. They're descriptions
of struggle, frustration, pain and fear and thinking about suicide 24/7.
That's suicidal ideation and they don't lock people up for that.
My point is that you should be careful whom you tell this sort of thing
to until you've established some kind of trusting relationship. The
admission that you are actively suicidal can be very easily used against
you, and if police get involved, forget it.
People who are actively suicidal do need to be restrained. They tend to make
a mess.
But waiting for some trusting relationship only allows the illness to
continue untreated. Myself, I think it is better to just tell the truth and
get the right kind of attention in the first place. Whatever that may be.
Well, maybe you were misunderstood.
Yeah, I was misunderstood.
Were you actively suicidal or just having suicidal ideation? There's a big
difference.
Did you tell them you weren't about to commit suicide?
By the time I found out they'd recorded this alleged assertion that I
was, it was too late. Next time, if there ever is a next time and I hope
to God there is no next time, I will know better. I was even tutored by
one cool doctor in the hospital on how to avoid accidentally saying
things that could get me locked up again.
Good thing.
--
<http://www.buddhanet.net/><http://www.dharmanet.org/><http://ecohimal.org>
<http://www.icrc.org><http://icbl.org><http://www.msf.org><http://rawa.org>
<http://gadenrelief.org/><http://act.greenpeace.org/><http://bushmeat.net/>
<http://peacebrigades.org><http://whalewatch.org><http://www.greenparty.ca>
.
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| User: "RGBs Neighbot" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 12:34:15 AM |
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In article <2iicjdFnifhuU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Bev Thornton <bevthornton@email.com> wrote:
Wait a minute.
I can do that, sure. Some stressed-out attending in an ER might not,
though. That's part of my point.
Being suicidal, in a state of suicidality, is different from
just thinking about it 24/7.
I know. But where the line is between (B) and (A) is a judgement call,
and you and I might be able to see a difference where someone else --
someone with the power to incarcerate and inject -- might not.
Do you know my story, Bev? I've posted it here more than once. It was
pretty awful. My one and only genuine suicide attempt came a couple of
months after the ER experience in question.
But waiting for some trusting relationship only allows the illness to
continue untreated. Myself, I think it is better to just tell the truth and
get the right kind of attention in the first place. Whatever that may be.
Well, maybe I've just seen the dark side of "whatever that may be".
Were you actively suicidal or just having suicidal ideation? There's a big
difference.
I don't really know what you mean by "actively suicidal". If you mean,
did I have a plan, was I expecting to be dead in a short period of time,
no. If you mean, did I have ideas, longings, considerings, yeah, I was.
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
.
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| User: "Bev Thornton" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 01:07:48 AM |
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RGB's Neighbot wrote:
In article <2iicjdFnifhuU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Bev Thornton <bevthornton@email.com> wrote:
Wait a minute.
I can do that, sure. Some stressed-out attending in an ER might not,
though. That's part of my point.
They're usually better able than any of us are. We're the ones with the
affective disorder.
Being suicidal, in a state of suicidality, is different from
just thinking about it 24/7.
I know. But where the line is between (B) and (A) is a judgement call,
and you and I might be able to see a difference where someone else --
someone with the power to incarcerate and inject -- might not.
They're usually better at that than we are too. That's why they're
healthcare professionals.
Do you know my story, Bev? I've posted it here more than once. It was
pretty awful. My one and only genuine suicide attempt came a couple of
months after the ER experience in question.
Well, people do have bad experiences, it all depends on how they present
themselves to the clinicians doing the interviews and how they behave in
the environment, the clinic or the office.
But waiting for some trusting relationship only allows the illness to
continue untreated. Myself, I think it is better to just tell the truth
and get the right kind of attention in the first place. Whatever that may
be.
Well, maybe I've just seen the dark side of "whatever that may be".
Maybe.
Were you actively suicidal or just having suicidal ideation? There's a
big difference.
I don't really know what you mean by "actively suicidal". If you mean,
did I have a plan, was I expecting to be dead in a short period of time,
no. If you mean, did I have ideas, longings, considerings, yeah, I was.
That's not usually what they mean by suicidal, the suicidal person is one
who is supposed to be going on with the suicide plan right then. The usual
operational definition they use is "a danger to themselves."
What did the doctor tell you about how to avoid accidentally saying things
that could get you locked up again? did he give any examples?
--
<http://www.buddhanet.net/><http://www.dharmanet.org/><http://ecohimal.org>
<http://www.icrc.org><http://icbl.org><http://www.msf.org><http://rawa.org>
<http://gadenrelief.org/><http://act.greenpeace.org/><http://bushmeat.net/>
<http://peacebrigades.org><http://whalewatch.org><http://www.greenparty.ca>
.
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| User: "RGBs Neighbot" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 01:27:22 AM |
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In article <2iif1kFms561U1@uni-berlin.de>,
Bev Thornton <bevthornton@email.com> wrote:
Well, people do have bad experiences, it all depends on how they present
themselves to the clinicians doing the interviews and how they behave in
the environment, the clinic or the office.
Ah, so if you have a bad experience in an ER, it can only be your own
fault? That's good to know. It's reassuring to understand that these
doctors working 36 hour shifts are above getting stressed out and acting
inappropriately and harmfully.
For your information, Bev, regardless of what good experiences you've
had, I encountered a serious ***** in the Saint Elizabeth's ER back in
1996, and -- if the doctor who told me this is to be believed -- she was
formally reprimanded for her abuse of medical power. She should have
been imprisoned, as far as I'm concerned, but that's way too much to
hope for in this world.
What did the doctor tell you about how to avoid accidentally saying
things that could get you locked up again? did he give any examples?
He said essentially not to say anything that could be interpreted as a
suicidal threat, and to make positive statements that would have to be
recorded that would be explicit in their NON-suicidal intent.
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
.
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| User: "Bev Thornton" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 01:44:45 AM |
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RGB's Neighbot wrote:
Ah, so if you have a bad experience in an ER, it can only be your own
fault? That's good to know. It's reassuring to understand that these
doctors working 36 hour shifts are above getting stressed out and acting
inappropriately and harmfully.
The shifts are staggered, some people are fresh. An ER is an inappropriate
place to go for help with thinking, considering and longing for suicide.
Emergency Rooms are for actual emergencies, not for people who are having
troubling thoughts. Crisis centres and mental health clinics or even just a
general practioner's office is much more appropriate. The people in an ER
are trained to expect emergency. Just presenting yourself there is a subtle
way of saying your state is an emergency whether you intend to say that or
not, and if it isn't an emergency, then that's not the place to be anyway.
For your information, Bev, regardless of what good experiences you've
had, I encountered a serious ***** in the Saint Elizabeth's ER back in
1996, and -- if the doctor who told me this is to be believed -- she was
formally reprimanded for her abuse of medical power. She should have
been imprisoned, as far as I'm concerned, but that's way too much to
hope for in this world.
Well, that's what happens, they get in trouble if they lock people up who
aren't a danger to themselves or others.
Why did you go to an ER if it wasn't an emergency? And, why are you
complaining about them acting as if it was? That's their job at the ER.
What did the doctor tell you about how to avoid accidentally saying
things that could get you locked up again? did he give any examples?
He said essentially not to say anything that could be interpreted as a
suicidal threat, and to make positive statements that would have to be
recorded that would be explicit in their NON-suicidal intent.
Like, "I don't want to die, I'm here to get help," that sort of thing?
It does work much better than things that can be interpreted as threats do
for getting help.
--
<http://www.buddhanet.net/><http://www.dharmanet.org/><http://ecohimal.org>
<http://www.icrc.org><http://icbl.org><http://www.msf.org><http://rawa.org>
<http://gadenrelief.org/><http://act.greenpeace.org/><http://bushmeat.net/>
<http://peacebrigades.org><http://whalewatch.org><http://www.greenparty.ca>
.
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| User: "RGBs Neighbot" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 02:14:05 AM |
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In article <2iih6vFniamtU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Bev Thornton <bevthornton@email.com> wrote:
<snip>
Never mind, Bev. Trying to have a conversation with you is like calling
in to a radio talk show and stupidly expecting a genuine dialogue. You
have all the answers, you know everything, and you're always right, so
just never mind.
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
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| User: "Bev Thornton" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 02:15:04 AM |
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RGB's Neighbot wrote:
Never mind, Bev. Trying to have a conversation with you is like calling
in to a radio talk show and stupidly expecting a genuine dialogue. You
have all the answers, you know everything, and you're always right, so
just never mind.
I never do.
--
<http://www.buddhanet.net/><http://www.dharmanet.org/><http://ecohimal.org>
<http://www.icrc.org><http://icbl.org><http://www.msf.org><http://rawa.org>
<http://gadenrelief.org/><http://act.greenpeace.org/><http://bushmeat.net/>
<http://peacebrigades.org><http://whalewatch.org><http://www.greenparty.ca>
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| User: "Trishamolson" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 09:21:46 AM |
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Bev,
This interaction with Mark reminded me of one of your biggest problems and you
never never deal with it -- it saddens me.
He had a story, he knows his own story, and he was attempting to communicate
insight he has gained from his story -- you in turn completely invalidated all
he said without any personal knowledge. You did not engage in conversation at
all.
It matters because acting like this is a way of never making any genuine human
contact with another and it will leave you in isolation -- yes, you may say
fine, but it isn't fine. People need to emotionally touch each other -- it is
basic to surviving as a human being.
me
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| User: "RGBs Neighbot" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 10:18:25 AM |
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In article <20040607102146.29553.00000684@mb-m05.aol.com>,
(Trishamolson) wrote:
he knows his own story, and he was attempting to communicate
insight he has gained from his story
Thank you, Rosena. I needed to hear this.
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
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| User: "Bev Thornton" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 12:17:51 PM |
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Trishamolson wrote:
This interaction with Mark reminded me of one of your biggest problems and
you never never deal with it -- it saddens me.
How do you know I never deal with it? Are you mistaking a fragment for a
whole?
The people I actually do get around with, people who actually do know me
well, they say my biggest problem is giving stuff away and a lack of greed,
which they call ambition or wanting stuff like cars and houses.
The psychologists and social workers who treated me over the past couple
years said it was the principles I live by, that they make it too difficult
for me to be deceptive enough to get past things like job interviews. They
also said that my tendency to sit quietly still was also quite a problem.
You can't see that one here at all, eh?
The physicians and nurses who have treated me over that same period tell me
that my biggest problems are related to my appearance and that it is
typical of people who have sustained closed head injury. They also said
that I should be a little greedier, using exactly that word.
If you're not sad about one of those things, you have nothing actually about
me to be sad about. You are being saddened by your conception of me, not
the real me.
He had a story, he knows his own story, and he was attempting to
communicate insight he has gained from his story -- you in turn completely
invalidated all he said without any personal knowledge. You did not engage
in conversation at all.
He completely invalidated all I wrote. What's the difference?
I have experience too. Plenty of it.
Him telling someone to withhold information from healthcare workers until
some 'trusting relationship' exists is just bizarre. What kind of real
trust is ever possible when the approach is deceptive? None. And in the
meantime, while waiting for some trusting relationship to develop out of a
deceit, what is actually being treated by the healthcare workers? Nothing
but a comfortable fiction created for attention. Almost guaranteed to fail.
In his story, he failed to recognize the difference between calling a crisis
line and going where they tell you to go, which is what the thread is
supposed to be about, and just walking in to an Emergency Room and making
suicidal threats, which he quoted one himself but doesn't seem to realize
that that is what it is in the context of an ER.
I could have pointed that out right after he posted it, but I didn't. I let
him do it by answering questions about what the doctor told him about how
to talk to people so he doesn't get locked-up.
I'm not going to validate his problems. No one else's either. Ever.
And I'm not going to ever validate many people's expressed feelings in this
forum either, for two reasons: the people who do it the most are usually
just playing attention-seeking manipulation games and of the people who
actually are expressing genuine feelings, most of those feelings are
unhealthy ones, products of affective disorder, mood disorder, disorders of
emotion, feelings. Those feelings are invalid in the first place.
It matters because acting like this is a way of never making any genuine
human contact with another and it will leave you in isolation -- yes, you
may say fine, but it isn't fine. People need to emotionally touch each
other -- it is basic to surviving as a human being.
There's no genuine human contact in this virtual environment - ever. Genuine
human contact can only occur when genuine humans actually contact. Like at
an ASD meet. It can't be extended into a virtual environment and remain
genuine, then it can only be virtual. To think otherwise is to mistake a
personal effect for something actual.
I am not isolated at all. In real life, I'm not even as isolated as I want
to be yet. The only real reason I'm on the Internet so much lately is
because my hang-out burned-down last month.
People may need to figuratively touch each other through emotions, but those
emotions had better be healthy ones or else they'd just be spreading
needless pain. I'm not into needless pain.
And as for Mz. R., who this thread was supposed to be about, she'll have
less needless pain sooner if she actually co-operates with the workers in
the healthcare system than if she hides aspects of her condition from them
or creates a fiction to present for them to work on.
The way to avoid both the ER and the railroad tracks is to openly and
honestly go to the facilities set-up specifically for dealing with
depression and similar disorders. And when they're not available, to a
general or family practice clinic or physician for screening and referral.
And you can't get properly screened or referred by lying or being
deceitful. And certainly not by making subtle threats in the form of
passive-aggressive questions or suggestions.
--
<http://www.buddhanet.net/><http://www.dharmanet.org/><http://ecohimal.org>
<http://www.icrc.org><http://icbl.org><http://www.msf.org><http://rawa.org>
<http://gadenrelief.org/><http://act.greenpeace.org/><http://bushmeat.net/>
<http://peacebrigades.org><http://whalewatch.org><http://www.greenparty.ca>
.
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| User: "RGBs Neighbot" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 04:13:08 PM |
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In article <2ijma1FneahbU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Bev Thornton <bevthornton@email.com> wrote:
Are you mistaking a fragment for a whole?
Jesus, he even talks to real life friends in canned slogans.
I'll repeat what I just said elsewhere: Go ***** yourself, *****. You
have no clue what happened with me in the ER and no interest in learning
the facts or understanding my reactions.
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 04:28:21 PM |
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"RGB's Neighbot" <-@-.-> wrote in message
news:--743CA6.14130807062004@news.easynews.com...
In article <2ijma1FneahbU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Bev Thornton <bevthornton@email.com> wrote:
Are you mistaking a fragment for a whole?
Jesus, he even talks to real life friends in canned slogans.
I'll repeat what I just said elsewhere: Go ***** yourself, *****. You
have no clue what happened with me in the ER and no interest in learning
the facts or understanding my reactions.
Maybe he can't. There's this weird autistic (NOT a dx, puhleeze) element to his
interactions with others. It's impossible to connect with the disconnected.
Jean
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
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| User: "RGBs Neighbot" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 04:30:35 PM |
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In article <2ik4vaFo2geuU1@uni-berlin.de>,
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
It's impossible to connect with the disconnected.
Tell me about it.
Thanks for saying something here. You may know enough of what happened
to me in that ER to understand how infuriating this thread has gotten
for me. Anyway, gotta run, laters...
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
.
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 04:42:06 PM |
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"RGB's Neighbot" <-@-.-> wrote in message
news:--237DBB.14311307062004@news.easynews.com...
In article <2ik4vaFo2geuU1@uni-berlin.de>,
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
It's impossible to connect with the disconnected.
Tell me about it.
Thanks for saying something here. You may know enough of what happened
to me in that ER to understand how infuriating this thread has gotten
for me. Anyway, gotta run, laters...
I know the whole story Mark. Like, I actually read and remember most of what my
favorite people post. Especially something as horrifying as that.
So do the old whatever thing in his direction. Something really odd going on
there.
Jean
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
.
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| User: "RGBs Neighbot" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 08:30:24 PM |
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In article <2ik5p3Foa7uuU1@uni-berlin.de>,
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Something really odd going on there.
No kidding. When I saw him slap back at Rosena with that line about
"fragments and wholes", a chill ran down my spine. Man, ain't nobody and
nothing can get through to that poor ***** when he's in Bev Mode. Rage or
love get you exactly the same stone wall of slogans. He must be a real
treat to have as a patient.
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
.
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| User: "% surfs@uniserve" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 08:43:47 PM |
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"RGB's Neighbot" <-@-.-> wrote in message
news:--7F1B92.18302307062004@news.easynews.com...
In article <2ik5p3Foa7uuU1@uni-berlin.de>,
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Something really odd going on there.
No kidding. When I saw him slap back at Rosena with that line about
"fragments and wholes", a chill ran down my spine. Man, ain't nobody and
nothing can get through to that poor ***** when he's in Bev Mode. Rage or
love get you exactly the same stone wall of slogans. He must be a real
treat to have as a patient.
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
Bev = 2
RGB'S Neighbot = 0
.
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| User: "Luna" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 09:06:59 PM |
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"RGB's Neighbot" <-@-.-> wrote in message
news:--7F1B92.18302307062004@news.easynews.com...
In article <2ik5p3Foa7uuU1@uni-berlin.de>,
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Something really odd going on there.
No kidding. When I saw him slap back at Rosena with that line about
"fragments and wholes", a chill ran down my spine. Man, ain't nobody and
nothing can get through to that poor ***** when he's in Bev Mode. Rage or
love get you exactly the same stone wall of slogans. He must be a real
treat to have as a patient.
He's a brilliant moron. Brilliant at being a horribly cruel moron.
Anywho, Ahrgeebee. Hi. (wide and sincere smile aimed in your direction).
Watch me get labeled as a borderline personality disordered multiple personality
disordered werido now. hahahahahaha. Oh fuckin' brother.
Jean
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
.
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| User: "RGBs Neighbot" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 09:22:52 PM |
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In article <2ikl9nFof83pU1@uni-berlin.de>,
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi. (wide and sincere smile aimed in your direction).
"MOI???" (note inappropriate use of double-quotes, since I never
actually *said* that, even if I *typed* it, which I didn't either)
Hi.
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
.
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| User: "% surfs@uniserve" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
07 Jun 2004 09:28:08 PM |
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"RGB's Neighbot" <-@-.-> wrote in message
news:--A58D11.19233407062004@news.easynews.com...
In article <2ikl9nFof83pU1@uni-berlin.de>,
"Luna" <jean_collins@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi. (wide and sincere smile aimed in your direction).
"MOI???" (note inappropriate use of double-quotes, since I never
actually *said* that, even if I *typed* it, which I didn't either)
Hi.
--
http://asdwiki.2y.net -- wiki wiki!
what a *****
.
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| User: "BGumm" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
08 Jun 2004 05:39:55 PM |
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Excuse me for breaking in here and not really knowing what is going on but if
someone is actually questioning another persons EXPERIENCE with ER STAFF???
OMG....PLEASE....The stories I have been hearing leave me green enough to never
step into an ER situation ALONE. I am not saying that all ER's are bad---NO
but I have heard a few stories that have left me going---WHAT THE HELL....so
come on....***** happens and it ain't pretty and it is definitely scary and
WHERE do these people get their degrees???
<sigh>
Sorry but these few stories have come from friends and others.....
Becky---who would not hesitate to go but would definitely know my rights and
would have someone with me.......
"I have seen the sea when it is stormy and wild;
when it is quiet and serene; when it is dark and
moody. And in all its moods, I see myself."
-Martin Buxbaum
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| User: "Bev Thornton" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
08 Jun 2004 06:17:06 PM |
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BGumm wrote:
Excuse me for breaking in here and not really knowing what is going on but
if someone is actually questioning another persons EXPERIENCE with ER
STAFF???
No. The person's experience really happened.
I'm questioning the way it is interpreted. I would go with the physician who
said something like not to "accidentally" say things that could be
misinterpreted.
There are abusive things that happen in emergency rooms, like unnecessary
stomach pumping and charcoal milkshakes or the restraining of someone only
trying to defend, but there's abuses from the other end too, like going in
to get attention for something that isn't an emergency, or creating
emergencies just to get attention. Emergency Rooms aren't the place for
that, mental health clinics, mental health hospitals and general, family
and psychiatric practices are.
It's only an emergency if you really need to be in a hospital, right then.
Some of us reading here have illnesses that cause us to go get ourselves in
trouble at places like Emergency Rooms. We don't have much to complain
about if we go in and the staff there behaves as if it is an actual
emergency.
--
<http://www.buddhanet.net/><http://www.dharmanet.org/><http://ecohimal.org>
<http://www.icrc.org><http://icbl.org><http://www.msf.org><http://rawa.org>
<http://gadenrelief.org/><http://act.greenpeace.org/><http://bushmeat.net/>
<http://peacebrigades.org><http://whalewatch.org><http://www.greenparty.ca>
.
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| User: "Hap Arnold" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
09 Jun 2004 10:32:33 AM |
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"Bev Thornton" <bevthornton@email.com> wrote in message
news:2imvnpFp2m5aU1@uni-berlin.de...
BGumm wrote:
Excuse me for breaking in here and not really knowing what is going on
but
if someone is actually questioning another persons EXPERIENCE with ER
STAFF???
No. The person's experience really happened.
I'm questioning the way it is interpreted. I would go with the physician
who
said something like not to "accidentally" say things that could be
misinterpreted.
There are abusive things that happen in emergency rooms, like unnecessary
stomach pumping and charcoal milkshakes or the restraining of someone only
trying to defend, but there's abuses from the other end too, like going in
to get attention for something that isn't an emergency, or creating
emergencies just to get attention. Emergency Rooms aren't the place for
that, mental health clinics, mental health hospitals and general, family
and psychiatric practices are.
It's only an emergency if you really need to be in a hospital, right then.
Some of us reading here have illnesses that cause us to go get ourselves
in
trouble at places like Emergency Rooms. We don't have much to complain
about if we go in and the staff there behaves as if it is an actual
emergency.
You may be right, but you seem to overlook that many people do not have the
degree of knowledge about the correct operations of the combined health care
system required to function as you indicate.
ER's are not the place for many things, but they must function as if they
were because the US doesn't have 'casualty centers' serperate from
'immediate care centers' seperate from 'no health insurance center' care in
every locality. In major metro areas there may be enough of each to
establish seperate facilities, but in sparsely populated areas there is not
enough demand for nor is there enough user understanding for segregated
care. Asking people to self-identify their own level of triage is really
too much to ask of the every day person. In RGB's case you are also asking
him to apply this triage to mental health and to apply his triage in a
system that does not function ideally. There may have been a better way for
him to work a better system, but he had only the system available to him and
only the knowledge he had at the time with which to work within it.
Health Professionals must have a higher ethical standard than that which he
encountered. They (and you) need to forgive the care-seekers for not
knowing as much about care as care-providers, and they must not extract
vengence upon the seekers for the decisions of the population at large.
--
E Sempre l'Ora
--
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| User: "Bev Thornton" |
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| Title: Re: ? When people give you those 'contact' numbers... |
09 Jun 2004 06:25:09 PM |
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Hap Arnold wrote:
You may be right, but you seem to overlook that many people do not have
the degree of knowledge about the correct operations of the combined
health care system required to function as you indicate.
Oh, I haven't overlooked it. If I had, I wouldn't be writing instructions
here on how to seek help safely.
ER's are not the place for many things, but they must function as if they
were because the US doesn't have 'casualty centers' serperate from
'immediate care centers' seperate from 'no health insurance center' care
in every locality. In major metro areas there may be enough of each to
establish seperate facilities, but in sparsely populated areas there is
not enough demand for nor is there enough user understanding for
segregated care.
It's the same in Canada, even more so because of the underpopulated North.
In some places, there isn't even a real clinic or hospital, just an
emergency facility with an examining room and a helipad. If that's all
there is, that's where you go in the middle of the night, otherwise you go
to your regular physician. For just someone to talk to, there's a crisis
line connected to every working telephone on the whole public exchange.
Asking people to self-identify their own level of triage is really
too much to ask of the every day person. In RGB's case you are also
asking him to apply this triage to mental health and to apply his triage
in a system that does not function ideally. There may have been a better
way for him to work a better system, but he had only the system available
to him and only the knowledge he had at the time with which to work within
it.
The title of this thread is "When people give you those 'contact' numbers,"
the people on the other ends of those contact numbers are ready to assist
with directions. They're also available anywhere any medical facility is
and they actually are for finding someone to talk to. Just needing someone
to talk to is not an emergency. Ever. Making suicidal threats to an ER
staff will make them think it is an emergency though whether it actually is
or not. Just like the person needing someone to talk to may think that
their need to talk to someone is an emergency worthy of a hospital
emergency room. But if someone goes into an ER, creates and emergency,
there is no use in them complaining because the staff acted like it was an
emergency.
I'm not asking people to self-triage. I'm asking them to be honest with
their healthcare providers. No hiding stuff, no threats, no drama. do that,
and they can safely walk into an emergency room without fear of being
locked-up unnecessarily.
Scare-mongering people into avoiding emergency rooms because of some
self-created problem in the past is not helpful for anyone. Neither is
telling them to hide their condition from the healthcare providers.
Health Professionals must have a higher ethical standard than that which
he encountered. They (and you) need to forgive the care-seekers for not
knowing as much about care as care-providers, and they must not extract
vengence upon the seekers for the decisions of the population at large.
Almost all health professionals have a higher ethical standard than you've
been led to believe in this thread.
Threaten them with suicide, even in a passive-agressive manner, and they
will react. Their ethics compel them to do so.
Deceive them by hiding your true condition, and they will treat the
deception and not the actual condition. Their ethics compel them to do that
too.
What kind of ethics lead to deception and suicidal threats?
So, forget ethics. And as for forgiveness, the people who decieve their
physicians or make suicidal threats do not need to be forgiven for doing
that because they can't help it in the first place. They're mentally ill
and the behaviour is a result of the illness. However, that
illness-affected behaviour doesn't need to be coddled or supported in any
way, including going along with the ideas behind it or the suppositions in
front.
Walk into an ER, tell them you just need someone to talk to because you're
feeling suicidal and they'll behave accordingly. Walk in and make a
thinly-veiled suicidal threat, even as a joke, and they'll act accordingly
for that too. The difference in treatment will be as great as the
difference in approach.
And the only difference there involves honesty and openness.
--
<http://www.buddhanet.net/><http://www.dharmanet.org/><http://ecohimal.org>
<http://www.icrc.org><http://icbl.org><http://www.msf.org><http://rawa.org>
<http://gadenrelief.org/><http://act.greenpeace.org/><http://bushmeat.net/>
<http://peacebrigades.org><http://whalewatch.org><http://www.greenparty.ca>
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